Other players released or traded by Gettleman over the years agree — Odell Beckham, Steve Smith, and especially Collins, who returns to MetLife Stadium in Week 4, for Washington’s game at the Giants.
It doesn't seem hard to imagine though that Gettleman is probably a tough nut to deal with in closed door conversations. He probably talks a lot and brings up all ranges of possibilities so nobody can pin him down on his thoughts on any particular topic. And when pressed he probably just falls back to some general statement that he is going to do what's best for the Giants.
And he probably does it all with some sense of superiority coming thru in his tone. Imagine this is what pisses the players/agents off the most. This may or may not actually be a successful approach in dealing with player's and their contracts.
In the end, the only thing that matters is whether the teams he puts on the field are successful.
Collins is currently number NINE in league in tackles
He was a leader of our defense ..
please stop with the idea that Collins was not a valuable member of Giants
if he was still on our team - we would have a much better defense.
also -
if Collins was the only player to make these accusations against Gettleman
then you could call Collins a malcontent but the fact is a number of players have said bad things about Gettleman ..
how many times do you hear players bad mouthing a GM?
do you think players are that dumb? of course they know it is a business
You can’t make a lot of tackles when they throw the ball to the guy you’re covering all the time. The redskins defense hasn’t been any good so far
No one gave Collins 80 million. He got a two year contract for about 32 million. He'll never see a dime past that unless it's on a new contract. That's a lot of money but people need to stop buying the NFL bullshit about contract values and learn how the business works.
Collins talked way too much when he wa on the Giants. He's still talking way too much.
As far as Gettleman goes all he's shown us so far in public is that he's a complete asshole. His record is 5-13 as Giants GM. If it was 13-5 no one would care.
It always struck me as odd that, according to the media Â
Gettleman never attempted to trade Collins. He just let him walk to another team. As an aside, from a talent standpoint, Collins is a better SS than Peppers.
Gettleman never attempted to trade Collins. He just let him walk to another team. As an aside, from a talent standpoint, Collins is a better SS than Peppers.
He never attempted to trade him - or he wasn't getting good enough offers?
Would you have preferred to have traded him for a 4th or 5th round pick when we wound up with a 3rd as a comp?
Peppers is not a strong safety, either - you're comparing players who play entirely different games.
RE: RE: It always struck me as odd that, according to the media Â
also seem to want to completely gloss over the fact that he was fired and out of work before we made him our GM.
The fact of the matter is either people here want to give his track record too much credit or his personality flaws are so substantial the risks of keeping them in the building outweighed the rewards.
Nobody has ever suggested this set of facts precludes him from doing a good job here but to ignore the fact that his personality has already impacted the perception of the team is irresponsible analysis.
RE: RE: RE: It always struck me as odd that, according to the media Â
No one gave Collins 80 million. He got a two year contract for about 32 million. He'll never see a dime past that unless it's on a new contract. That's a lot of money but people need to stop buying the NFL bullshit about contract values and learn how the business works.
Collins talked way too much when he wa on the Giants. He's still talking way too much.
As far as Gettleman goes all he's shown us so far in public is that he's a complete asshole. His record is 5-13 as Giants GM. If it was 13-5 no one would care.
Strange that you felt the need to correct that statement,are you another Big Blue Skins fan?
Because brutal honesty makes you question your own opinions about yourself. Wait, how can you tell me I'm not as good as I think I am, of course I am as good as I think I am therefore you must be lying.
RE: RE: RE: RE: It always struck me as odd that, according to the media Â
Collins didn’t bring up his Gettleman concerns with Mara and Tisch. He wanted to move on. But he later felt like he couldn’t, after how Gettleman characterized the Giants’ offseason house-cleaning moves.
“Once he came out and started talking about how we were problems, and they got rid of the problems, I’m trying to figure out: When have I ever been a problem?” Collins said. “Don’t group me in something that I wasn’t the cause of.
And Collins isn’t wrong. Gettleman did talk negatively first before Collins made any comment.
because of the messenger. Angry bitter words from Collins, Norman and others may have ulterior motives, but no one can really look at DG's performance since coming back to the Giants and not acknowledge that he has done and said many things that are seemingly inconsistent or contradictory. Eli's treatment is just the latest example of the flip-flop from this guy. Love him, hate him, trust his "plan" --I don't really care but do not ignore the reality that he has yet to prove he is right for this job and the fact that his style is very different from Reese, does not mean he will prove to be the guy who can fix this team.
What is wrong with Eli's treatment?
RE: Whatever Collins says about Gettleman, it remains true Â
that Gettleman got exactly zero return for a 27-year-old pro bowl safety in the midst of an obvious rebuilding project.
Yes he was injured. You still couldn't franchise him and get at least a 5th or 6th back? Dumb.
I don't mind backslapping Gettleman for some of his draft picks, even though he's been picking pretty high. But some of his free agent moves have been really head scratching.
They didn't want to franchise him because they didn't want to potentially be on the hook for the salary it carries. I don't have a problem with that decision.
19 tackles, but only 1 TFL for a team ranked 31st against the run and 25th against the pass. I haven't paid attention to them much, but based on the numbers I assume most of these tackles are not impact plays. I wanted to keep Collins, but not at that price. Nowhere near it. He isn't enough of an impact player. The fact that he doesn't shut up now makes me glad he's gone
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: I'm not at all concerned about the league Â
Giants/Gettleman didn't have much of a choice. They had an urgent need for a LT and had to quickly convert to a 3-4 without the players (LBs) to do so.
And that in a nutshell is why you shouldn't compare the Giants to Belichick, ever.
Look at that last sentence - Belichick also needed a LT and didn't bother paying Solder. And for good reason - he got a huge contract he wasn't worth.
As for switching to a 3-4 without the players - I'm not even going to answer that one. I'm sure you already know what Belichick would do.
RE: I don’t want a GM who’s bros with the players like Reese was Â
also seem to want to completely gloss over the fact that he was fired and out of work before we made him our GM.
The fact of the matter is either people here want to give his track record too much credit or his personality flaws are so substantial the risks of keeping them in the building outweighed the rewards.
Nobody has ever suggested this set of facts precludes him from doing a good job here but to ignore the fact that his personality has already impacted the perception of the team is irresponsible analysis.
Why do you continually ignore why he was fired?
It wasn't for his demeanor. It was directly because he wanted to look at moving Davis and Olsen and was told he could not pursue that route under any circumstances.
That's what is being glossed over. And it wasn't like he was out of work a year or so.
I'm sure there's a reason why you are dishonest and try to act like he had a lengthy stint out of work.
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: I'm not at all concerned about the league Â
Giants/Gettleman didn't have much of a choice. They had an urgent need for a LT and had to quickly convert to a 3-4 without the players (LBs) to do so.
And that in a nutshell is why you shouldn't compare the Giants to Belichick, ever.
Look at that last sentence - Belichick also needed a LT and didn't bother paying Solder. And for good reason - he got a huge contract he wasn't worth.
This narrative is just flat out false. Belichick DID try to resign Solder and offered him a very big contract. The Giants offered more. This idea that Belichick just decided to let Solder walk is repeated around here and it’s untrue. They tried bringing him back. Look it up. It’s not hard to find. It doesn’t fit your agenda, but those are the facts.
RE: It always struck me as odd that, according to the media Â
Gettleman never attempted to trade Collins. He just let him walk to another team. As an aside, from a talent standpoint, Collins is a better SS than Peppers.
Most people said Collins could not cover and virtually NOBODY here wanted to pay Collins the money he was asking for.
Suddenly after OBJ is traded and Peppers ends up here during the transaction... we have these people coming out of the woodwork who wanted to keep Collins now at what the Redskins paid him?
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: I'm not at all concerned about the league Â
Giants/Gettleman didn't have much of a choice. They had an urgent need for a LT and had to quickly convert to a 3-4 without the players (LBs) to do so.
And that in a nutshell is why you shouldn't compare the Giants to Belichick, ever.
Look at that last sentence - Belichick also needed a LT and didn't bother paying Solder. And for good reason - he got a huge contract he wasn't worth.
This narrative is just flat out false. Belichick DID try to resign Solder and offered him a very big contract. The Giants offered more. This idea that Belichick just decided to let Solder walk is repeated around here and it’s untrue. They tried bringing him back. Look it up. It’s not hard to find. It doesn’t fit your agenda, but those are the facts.
You talk a lot of shit about agenda and narrative and of course don't back any of it up.
also seem to want to completely gloss over the fact that he was fired and out of work before we made him our GM.
Really? Dishonest??
Quote:
I'm sure there's a reason why you are dishonest and try to act like he had a lengthy stint out of work.
I stated a fact, that he was out of work. How exactly is that acting like he had a lengthy stint out of work? He wasn't employed currently. That's a fact. Your portrayal of me as dishonest is the only dishonesty in our two posts.
Everything for you is so black and white. People "do" or "don't do" analytics.
Quote:
Why do you continually ignore why he was fired?
It wasn't for his demeanor. It was directly because he wanted to look at moving Davis and Olsen and was told he could not pursue that route under any circumstances.
People don't get fired just for one thing. And to a point made earlier on the thread if you want to convince someone of your point convince them. If you do get fired over one thing (and everything else is grand like you seem to be implying) then you were probably a huge asshole about that one thing. Doesn't mean the person on the other end of it wasn't also one, but, you work for that person. For someone who seems to care so much about people respecting his authority... he didn't get fired respecting his superior.
He's not some white knight hero for standing up for his desire to not move on from two players to a breaking point. He's not much different than the players bashing him in the media just people with pride and irreconcilable differences with former employers.
working for an owner who was forced to cede control of his team!!
An owner who increasingly made poor decisions to the point that when he left, he elevated a former cheerleader to the role of head of team operations! I've posted several articles where the Charlotte beats point to the Davis and Olsen situation being the reason for his firing.
I'd also like to know how many GM's or coaches are hired while they still are working?? He was hired by the Giants immediately after a season, the first time any team will make a change at GM.
And fuck you with the black and white analytics comment. It is actually YOU who is black and white. Let me remind you once again - that you asserted for months (and possibly still do) that Gettleman didn't have anything to do with analytics - and again I showed articles about him setting up the analytics program in Charlotte. You literally claimed he didn't use analytics!!
while still completely inaccurately calling me dishonest has disintegrated.
Not going to play in the mud with you anymore.
The owner getting outed is a red herring. That owner also hired him. Should we taint Gettleman for being also liked by that owner?
Wanting to completely absolve someone of blame after getting fired is a strange stance to take. But you are quite adept at dying on these strange analytical hills because you charge in insults blazing ready to tell the world how terrible their opinions are.
You and your buddy Gettleman, making the world a better place one prideful superfluous stand at a time.
“Analytics is the discovery, interpretation, and communication of meaningful patterns in data”
Many would call a pivot table that you talk over analytics. The comment was always about an NFL team with probably the best talent pool in the country not having people with the right qualifications to engage in the types of analytics some teams and many many businesses engage in. And if you remember I started talking about it after they were consistently messing up timeouts which is very simple applied game theory.
You insist I was making a point no one would ever make because you miss nuance when riding on such a high horse. Comparatively to the work going on around them in this city there is plenty of evidence (by me and other posters who work in this space) that the Giants are embarrassingly behind. The debate moved on to how much they should really be pursuing advanced analytics but you’ve got this masochistic way of harping on this where I honestly feel bad for you at this point.
dishonest. In how you portray things and certainly about analytics.
And the black and white in your world boils down to those who buy into your dishonest view of analytics as "getting it" while those who don't are screamed down with a ridiculous "Luddite" cry.
The real question is if you are dishonest out of a lack of intelligence, which certainly looks like the case many times.
So you can stop playing in the mud simply by stopping posting shit on the board.
It is in your control.
Awwww what’s the matter? Now you are upset that you Â
And that in a nutshell is why you shouldn't compare the Giants to Belichick, ever.
Look at that last sentence - Belichick also needed a LT and didn't bother paying Solder. And for good reason - he got a huge contract he wasn't worth.
As for switching to a 3-4 without the players - I'm not even going to answer that one. I'm sure you already know what Belichick would do.
I don't think you get it. It's not a comparison, it's an aspiration. Every damn GM/HC in the league should aspire to do what Bill does. Is your philosophy to not bother trying to do things like him? Is the only way to fix it to find a different way to do it or to do what is proven to work? Bill didn't need a LT as bad as the Giants. We know why Bill doesn't need any position as bad as any other team in the league. He has no trouble getting a replacement (GM) and/or can turn lemons into lemonade with the backups (HC).
I just don't get it. You are so sick of "comparisons" being made to Bill. I think we agree that Bill is the best at what he does so why wouldn't we want our GM/HC to emulate that?
conveniently leaves out this portion from the Charlotte Observer why Gettleman was fired:
Quote:
In interviews with more than a dozen team and league sources, the Observer learned that Gettleman’s brusque management style – which had made him unpopular with some Carolina players from his earliest days as GM – had begun to wear thin throughout the organization.
Some staffers also didn’t like how Gettleman reshaped the roster following the 2015 Super Bowl season, leaving yawning gaps in the secondary and along the offensive line that were exposed during a 6-10 campaign last year.
So while the Olson/Davis situations were factors, there was more to the story.
Meanwhile, FMiC conveniently glosses over how DG was hired here. Accorsi, his dear old friend, was tasked by Mara to find a GM who could restore the team back to the “Giants Way” after Mara fired Reese and McAdoo for carrying out Mara’s plan to bench Eli to the letter. Accorsi spent about five minutes calling DG, booking his flight for the “interview”, and prepping him how to seal the deal with Mara.
So let’s not act like DG got scooped up in a few months because there was some great demand for DG. Let’s face it, in the world of NFL GM’s, DG is an old man. I don’t think it’s a stretch to assume there was not going to be this great market for DG. At the end of the day, he was the beneficiary of fortune timing and serendipity at Jints Central...
Ex-Giants offensive tackle Ereck Flowers is in Washington, too, after Gettleman released him midway through last season. Flowers struggled with the Giants, so the move made sense. Flowers’ frustration with Gettleman actually stems from the GM not shipping him out sooner.
“I had actually been asking him [for clarity],” Flowers told NJ Advance Media “That was part of the reason why I didn’t go to [voluntary workouts in 2018]. I was looking for a fresh start. He had [trade] offers for me, and he didn’t want to take them. So he made me stay there, until finally I had a chance to go. I was mad about it, but it’s OK. I’m over it.”
So Gettleman actually had trade offers for Flowers, told Flowers that he was going to try and move him, but then ended up turning down all of those offers? That's amazing.
Eli was offering $10M for any team willing to trade Â
Giants/Gettleman didn't have much of a choice. They had an urgent need for a LT and had to quickly convert to a 3-4 without the players (LBs) to do so.
And that in a nutshell is why you shouldn't compare the Giants to Belichick, ever.
Look at that last sentence - Belichick also needed a LT and didn't bother paying Solder. And for good reason - he got a huge contract he wasn't worth.
This narrative is just flat out false. Belichick DID try to resign Solder and offered him a very big contract. The Giants offered more. This idea that Belichick just decided to let Solder walk is repeated around here and it’s untrue. They tried bringing him back. Look it up. It’s not hard to find. It doesn’t fit your agenda, but those are the facts.
You talk a lot of shit about agenda and narrative and of course don't back any of it up.
So, a quick Google indicated you were, as usual, extremely wrong. At least you're consistent. Pats didn't offer a contract anything like the Giants did - ( New Window )
Ex-Giants offensive tackle Ereck Flowers is in Washington, too, after Gettleman released him midway through last season. Flowers struggled with the Giants, so the move made sense. Flowers’ frustration with Gettleman actually stems from the GM not shipping him out sooner.
“I had actually been asking him [for clarity],” Flowers told NJ Advance Media “That was part of the reason why I didn’t go to [voluntary workouts in 2018]. I was looking for a fresh start. He had [trade] offers for me, and he didn’t want to take them. So he made me stay there, until finally I had a chance to go. I was mad about it, but it’s OK. I’m over it.”
So Gettleman actually had trade offers for Flowers, told Flowers that he was going to try and move him, but then ended up turning down all of those offers? That's amazing.
Where does it say he told Flowers something?
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: I'm not at all concerned about the league Â
Nate Solder disagrees... Pats, Giants offered similar money - ( New Window )
Good God, did you even bother to read the article you linked? Now you're linking shit that proves YOU wrong:
Quote:
As NBC Boston Sports' Tom Curran added, the Patriots made a solid offer last week that would have made Solder one of the highest-paid offensive tackles in the NFL. However, New England's offer was reportedly not equal to New York's so the three teams Solder is talking about might have been the Giants, the Houston Texans and the Cleveland Browns.
The article also goes on to point out that NE's offer was highly incentive based. So, if Solder had a shit first season, they could have cut bait and been off the hook. It's a typical structure for an NE contract.
But by all means, don't let facts get in the way of a good hissy fit.
RE: Awwww what’s the matter? Now you are upset that you Â
can’t annoy me anymore and you want me to go away?
No sorry.
Please explain what a “dishonest view of analytics” is?
What the fuck are you talking about?
A dishonest view of analytics is taking a snippet from a press conference and saying that Gettleman shuns analytics and then after being shown he implemented the analytics program in Carolina, going through a bunch of gymnastics to say "well, it isn't the right analytics".
Dishonest in analytics is also taking the view that PFF actually has something to contribute because it is "data". It isn't. It is all qualitative analysis that is done by subjective criteria. That isn't data and it is about as anti-analytics as one can get.
The funniest thing about our debates is that I'm pro-analytics and you call me a luddite. Why? Because you are a fucking moron.
Fatman...keep fighting the good fight. Not all data is good data. Â
Or relevant. Football is a sport that has so many moving pieces that you can' t just break down analytically. Not yet at least. Football needs to be treated like the stock market, it is a science AND an art.
When you are down 14 late in the game what do the analytics say? Go for two each time you score. Well what if your QB has the flu and his game looks off. Your kicker is perfect on the year extra points. Do you still go for it?
anything that goes through a process like PFF does absolutely has potentially relevant signaling.
What do you think analyst estimates are? Is that not data because there are qualitative inputs?
There isn't a right and wrong analytics. I've suggested that other than on field evidence (ala applied game theory) the qualifications of the people building them and yes even the culture in the building and the way the leaders speak are also good markers for if there are likely the right processes in place to build great teach. McL went as far as to look up github libraries and found no code from the Giants but many other teams.
You act like i'm just being some arbiter of analytics when unsurprisingly the people that work in analytics have brought a lot of evidence to the table and you just bombastic skeptic garbage.
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: I'm not at all concerned about the league Â
Nate Solder disagrees... Pats, Giants offered similar money - ( New Window )
Good God, did you even bother to read the article you linked? Now you're linking shit that proves YOU wrong:
Quote:
As NBC Boston Sports' Tom Curran added, the Patriots made a solid offer last week that would have made Solder one of the highest-paid offensive tackles in the NFL. However, New England's offer was reportedly not equal to New York's so the three teams Solder is talking about might have been the Giants, the Houston Texans and the Cleveland Browns.
The article also goes on to point out that NE's offer was highly incentive based. So, if Solder had a shit first season, they could have cut bait and been off the hook. It's a typical structure for an NE contract.
But by all means, don't let facts get in the way of a good hissy fit.
What? How the hell does that artistically prove ME wrong? It plainly states that the Pats wanted to bring him back. And offered a competitive offer as the Giants. The only difference was it was incentive based. Solder has said this. You’re acting as if the Pats had no interest in bringing him back. They obviously did! Is it really shocking that another team would have to outbid New England if they wanted him? How the hell does that make the Giants incompetent and the Pats brilliant? The Pats wanted him back. The Giants didn’t have the luxury of making demands on incentives. That’s how free agency works. Stop acting like they had no interest in bringing him back. They obviously did.
As NBC Boston Sports' Tom Curran added, the Patriots made a solid offer last week that would have made Solder one of the highest-paid offensive tackles in the NFL. However, New England's offer was reportedly not equal to New York's so the three teams Solder is talking about might have been the Giants, the Houston Texans and the Cleveland Browns.
So the Pats were willing to make him “one of the highest paid tackles in football” yet they “weren’t willing to pay him” (your words) in your eyes? Haha. Classic. And I’m the one that is wrong here...
Not all data is good data but
NoGainDayne : 6:56 pm : link : reply
anything that goes through a process like PFF does absolutely has potentially relevant signaling.
You do realize that PFF isn't using "data" at all. They are making subjective analyses based on uneducated guesses.
You also do realize that NO NFL teams utilize PFF player grades and that some don't even consider them directionally correct, right?
There are at least three analytic teams from the NFL that have reviewed PFF ratings and concluded they aren't even in a +/- 20% error range. That is horrific.
As NBC Boston Sports' Tom Curran added, the Patriots made a solid offer last week that would have made Solder one of the highest-paid offensive tackles in the NFL. However, New England's offer was reportedly not equal to New York's so the three teams Solder is talking about might have been the Giants, the Houston Texans and the Cleveland Browns.
So the Pats were willing to make him “one of the highest paid tackles in football” yet they “weren’t willing to pay him” (your words) in your eyes? Haha. Classic. And I’m the one that is wrong here...
You keep pretending that the Pats made any concerted effort to bring this guy back, when 3 other teams are listed as the ones topping the bidding, and the article goes out of it's way to point out how heavily incentive based his contract was.
Only one dummy was willing to make Solder the highest paid OLT in the game, and he happens to be the same guy who gave OBJ a ton of money just to create a giant crater in their cap a few months later.
Not all data is good data but
NoGainDayne : 6:56 pm : link : reply
anything that goes through a process like PFF does absolutely has potentially relevant signaling.
You do realize that PFF isn't using "data" at all. They are making subjective analyses based on uneducated guesses.
You also do realize that NO NFL teams utilize PFF player grades and that some don't even consider them directionally correct, right?
There are at least three analytic teams from the NFL that have reviewed PFF ratings and concluded they aren't even in a +/- 20% error range. That is horrific.
PFF is nothing but stat porn for fans.
God this so much. Often PFF will be the complete opposite of what the team grades are. What qualifications do the people have that do the scoring? That doesn't even deal with the obvious flaws anyone with a functioning brain can see in their plus minus scale that they explain on their site. CC was able to use his SNF platform to shoehorn PFF grades into the game, and the networks can tell the dummy on the couch eats that shit up so he has something to argue about with his friends. It has no actual bearing on its effectiveness, its a made for TV rating.
As NBC Boston Sports' Tom Curran added, the Patriots made a solid offer last week that would have made Solder one of the highest-paid offensive tackles in the NFL. However, New England's offer was reportedly not equal to New York's so the three teams Solder is talking about might have been the Giants, the Houston Texans and the Cleveland Browns.
So the Pats were willing to make him “one of the highest paid tackles in football” yet they “weren’t willing to pay him” (your words) in your eyes? Haha. Classic. And I’m the one that is wrong here...
You keep pretending that the Pats made any concerted effort to bring this guy back, when 3 other teams are listed as the ones topping the bidding, and the article goes out of it's way to point out how heavily incentive based his contract was.
Only one dummy was willing to make Solder the highest paid OLT in the game, and he happens to be the same guy who gave OBJ a ton of money just to create a giant crater in their cap a few months later.
Solder's play since the second half of last season has been very good. But keep banging the drum its a dog shit contract. The Patriots would have kept paying him that money because their was no reason for them to opt out the contract based on the incentives he was likely to earn, whether it was playing time based or performance.
It doesn't seem hard to imagine though that Gettleman is probably a tough nut to deal with in closed door conversations. He probably talks a lot and brings up all ranges of possibilities so nobody can pin him down on his thoughts on any particular topic. And when pressed he probably just falls back to some general statement that he is going to do what's best for the Giants.
And he probably does it all with some sense of superiority coming thru in his tone. Imagine this is what pisses the players/agents off the most. This may or may not actually be a successful approach in dealing with player's and their contracts.
In the end, the only thing that matters is whether the teams he puts on the field are successful.
He was a leader of our defense ..
please stop with the idea that Collins was not a valuable member of Giants
if he was still on our team - we would have a much better defense.
also -
if Collins was the only player to make these accusations against Gettleman
then you could call Collins a malcontent but the fact is a number of players have said bad things about Gettleman ..
how many times do you hear players bad mouthing a GM?
do you think players are that dumb? of course they know it is a business
You can’t make a lot of tackles when they throw the ball to the guy you’re covering all the time. The redskins defense hasn’t been any good so far
Collins talked way too much when he wa on the Giants. He's still talking way too much.
As far as Gettleman goes all he's shown us so far in public is that he's a complete asshole. His record is 5-13 as Giants GM. If it was 13-5 no one would care.
This! I'm surprised this doesn't get talked about more.
He never attempted to trade him - or he wasn't getting good enough offers?
Would you have preferred to have traded him for a 4th or 5th round pick when we wound up with a 3rd as a comp?
Peppers is not a strong safety, either - you're comparing players who play entirely different games.
He never attempted to trade him - or he wasn't getting good enough offers?
Would you have preferred to have traded him for a 4th or 5th round pick when we wound up with a 3rd as a comp?
Peppers is not a strong safety, either - you're comparing players who play entirely different games.
Wasn't the KC offer - rumored offer - a 3rd?
The fact of the matter is either people here want to give his track record too much credit or his personality flaws are so substantial the risks of keeping them in the building outweighed the rewards.
Nobody has ever suggested this set of facts precludes him from doing a good job here but to ignore the fact that his personality has already impacted the perception of the team is irresponsible analysis.
Quote:
He never attempted to trade him - or he wasn't getting good enough offers?
Would you have preferred to have traded him for a 4th or 5th round pick when we wound up with a 3rd as a comp?
Peppers is not a strong safety, either - you're comparing players who play entirely different games.
Wasn't the KC offer - rumored offer - a 3rd?
I don't believe that's been corroborated by anyone reliable. Or at least, no one I know of.
Collins talked way too much when he wa on the Giants. He's still talking way too much.
As far as Gettleman goes all he's shown us so far in public is that he's a complete asshole. His record is 5-13 as Giants GM. If it was 13-5 no one would care.
Strange that you felt the need to correct that statement,are you another Big Blue Skins fan?
+1
"If they never are required to exceed a maturity level of a 12yr old, why would they?"
-Me, probably around 2009
I don't care if DG misleads players to get the best out of them in the short term with an eye to replacing them in the future. That's his job.
Quote:
In comment 14587727 arcarsenal said:
Quote:
He never attempted to trade him - or he wasn't getting good enough offers?
Would you have preferred to have traded him for a 4th or 5th round pick when we wound up with a 3rd as a comp?
Peppers is not a strong safety, either - you're comparing players who play entirely different games.
Wasn't the KC offer - rumored offer - a 3rd?
I don't believe that's been corroborated by anyone reliable. Or at least, no one I know of.
I believe Gettleman said he did get offers for LC but didn't take them because how it would have impacted the locker room.
“Once he came out and started talking about how we were problems, and they got rid of the problems, I’m trying to figure out: When have I ever been a problem?” Collins said. “Don’t group me in something that I wasn’t the cause of.
And Collins isn’t wrong. Gettleman did talk negatively first before Collins made any comment.
didn't read through the whole thread, not sure if anyone pointed that out
see article below
Link - ( New Window )
Yes he was injured. You still couldn't franchise him and get at least a 5th or 6th back? Dumb.
I don't mind backslapping Gettleman for some of his draft picks, even though he's been picking pretty high. But some of his free agent moves have been really head scratching.
Giants/Gettleman didn't have much of a choice. They had an urgent need for a LT and had to quickly convert to a 3-4 without the players (LBs) to do so.
And that in a nutshell is why you shouldn't compare the Giants to Belichick, ever.
Look at that last sentence - Belichick also needed a LT and didn't bother paying Solder. And for good reason - he got a huge contract he wasn't worth.
As for switching to a 3-4 without the players - I'm not even going to answer that one. I'm sure you already know what Belichick would do.
The jury is still out on the job DG is doing, but I don’t care if he’s not warm and fuzzy with these guys
I read somewhere that's why he isn't. Makes it harder to make those decisions if you're chummy with players.
The fact of the matter is either people here want to give his track record too much credit or his personality flaws are so substantial the risks of keeping them in the building outweighed the rewards.
Nobody has ever suggested this set of facts precludes him from doing a good job here but to ignore the fact that his personality has already impacted the perception of the team is irresponsible analysis.
Why do you continually ignore why he was fired?
It wasn't for his demeanor. It was directly because he wanted to look at moving Davis and Olsen and was told he could not pursue that route under any circumstances.
That's what is being glossed over. And it wasn't like he was out of work a year or so.
I'm sure there's a reason why you are dishonest and try to act like he had a lengthy stint out of work.
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Giants/Gettleman didn't have much of a choice. They had an urgent need for a LT and had to quickly convert to a 3-4 without the players (LBs) to do so.
And that in a nutshell is why you shouldn't compare the Giants to Belichick, ever.
Look at that last sentence - Belichick also needed a LT and didn't bother paying Solder. And for good reason - he got a huge contract he wasn't worth.
This narrative is just flat out false. Belichick DID try to resign Solder and offered him a very big contract. The Giants offered more. This idea that Belichick just decided to let Solder walk is repeated around here and it’s untrue. They tried bringing him back. Look it up. It’s not hard to find. It doesn’t fit your agenda, but those are the facts.
Most people said Collins could not cover and virtually NOBODY here wanted to pay Collins the money he was asking for.
Suddenly after OBJ is traded and Peppers ends up here during the transaction... we have these people coming out of the woodwork who wanted to keep Collins now at what the Redskins paid him?
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In comment 14587502 USAF NYG Fan said:
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Giants/Gettleman didn't have much of a choice. They had an urgent need for a LT and had to quickly convert to a 3-4 without the players (LBs) to do so.
And that in a nutshell is why you shouldn't compare the Giants to Belichick, ever.
Look at that last sentence - Belichick also needed a LT and didn't bother paying Solder. And for good reason - he got a huge contract he wasn't worth.
This narrative is just flat out false. Belichick DID try to resign Solder and offered him a very big contract. The Giants offered more. This idea that Belichick just decided to let Solder walk is repeated around here and it’s untrue. They tried bringing him back. Look it up. It’s not hard to find. It doesn’t fit your agenda, but those are the facts.
You talk a lot of shit about agenda and narrative and of course don't back any of it up.
So, a quick Google indicated you were, as usual, extremely wrong. At least you're consistent.
Pats didn't offer a contract anything like the Giants did - ( New Window )
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also seem to want to completely gloss over the fact that he was fired and out of work before we made him our GM.
Really? Dishonest??
I'm sure there's a reason why you are dishonest and try to act like he had a lengthy stint out of work.
I stated a fact, that he was out of work. How exactly is that acting like he had a lengthy stint out of work? He wasn't employed currently. That's a fact. Your portrayal of me as dishonest is the only dishonesty in our two posts.
Everything for you is so black and white. People "do" or "don't do" analytics.
Why do you continually ignore why he was fired?
It wasn't for his demeanor. It was directly because he wanted to look at moving Davis and Olsen and was told he could not pursue that route under any circumstances.
People don't get fired just for one thing. And to a point made earlier on the thread if you want to convince someone of your point convince them. If you do get fired over one thing (and everything else is grand like you seem to be implying) then you were probably a huge asshole about that one thing. Doesn't mean the person on the other end of it wasn't also one, but, you work for that person. For someone who seems to care so much about people respecting his authority... he didn't get fired respecting his superior.
He's not some white knight hero for standing up for his desire to not move on from two players to a breaking point. He's not much different than the players bashing him in the media just people with pride and irreconcilable differences with former employers.
An owner who increasingly made poor decisions to the point that when he left, he elevated a former cheerleader to the role of head of team operations! I've posted several articles where the Charlotte beats point to the Davis and Olsen situation being the reason for his firing.
I'd also like to know how many GM's or coaches are hired while they still are working?? He was hired by the Giants immediately after a season, the first time any team will make a change at GM.
And fuck you with the black and white analytics comment. It is actually YOU who is black and white. Let me remind you once again - that you asserted for months (and possibly still do) that Gettleman didn't have anything to do with analytics - and again I showed articles about him setting up the analytics program in Charlotte. You literally claimed he didn't use analytics!!
You are absolutely a fucking joke.
Not going to play in the mud with you anymore.
The owner getting outed is a red herring. That owner also hired him. Should we taint Gettleman for being also liked by that owner?
Wanting to completely absolve someone of blame after getting fired is a strange stance to take. But you are quite adept at dying on these strange analytical hills because you charge in insults blazing ready to tell the world how terrible their opinions are.
You and your buddy Gettleman, making the world a better place one prideful superfluous stand at a time.
Many would call a pivot table that you talk over analytics. The comment was always about an NFL team with probably the best talent pool in the country not having people with the right qualifications to engage in the types of analytics some teams and many many businesses engage in. And if you remember I started talking about it after they were consistently messing up timeouts which is very simple applied game theory.
You insist I was making a point no one would ever make because you miss nuance when riding on such a high horse. Comparatively to the work going on around them in this city there is plenty of evidence (by me and other posters who work in this space) that the Giants are embarrassingly behind. The debate moved on to how much they should really be pursuing advanced analytics but you’ve got this masochistic way of harping on this where I honestly feel bad for you at this point.
And the black and white in your world boils down to those who buy into your dishonest view of analytics as "getting it" while those who don't are screamed down with a ridiculous "Luddite" cry.
The real question is if you are dishonest out of a lack of intelligence, which certainly looks like the case many times.
So you can stop playing in the mud simply by stopping posting shit on the board.
It is in your control.
No sorry.
Please explain what a “dishonest view of analytics” is?
And that in a nutshell is why you shouldn't compare the Giants to Belichick, ever.
Look at that last sentence - Belichick also needed a LT and didn't bother paying Solder. And for good reason - he got a huge contract he wasn't worth.
As for switching to a 3-4 without the players - I'm not even going to answer that one. I'm sure you already know what Belichick would do.
I don't think you get it. It's not a comparison, it's an aspiration. Every damn GM/HC in the league should aspire to do what Bill does. Is your philosophy to not bother trying to do things like him? Is the only way to fix it to find a different way to do it or to do what is proven to work? Bill didn't need a LT as bad as the Giants. We know why Bill doesn't need any position as bad as any other team in the league. He has no trouble getting a replacement (GM) and/or can turn lemons into lemonade with the backups (HC).
I just don't get it. You are so sick of "comparisons" being made to Bill. I think we agree that Bill is the best at what he does so why wouldn't we want our GM/HC to emulate that?
Some staffers also didn’t like how Gettleman reshaped the roster following the 2015 Super Bowl season, leaving yawning gaps in the secondary and along the offensive line that were exposed during a 6-10 campaign last year.
So while the Olson/Davis situations were factors, there was more to the story.
Meanwhile, FMiC conveniently glosses over how DG was hired here. Accorsi, his dear old friend, was tasked by Mara to find a GM who could restore the team back to the “Giants Way” after Mara fired Reese and McAdoo for carrying out Mara’s plan to bench Eli to the letter. Accorsi spent about five minutes calling DG, booking his flight for the “interview”, and prepping him how to seal the deal with Mara.
So let’s not act like DG got scooped up in a few months because there was some great demand for DG. Let’s face it, in the world of NFL GM’s, DG is an old man. I don’t think it’s a stretch to assume there was not going to be this great market for DG. At the end of the day, he was the beneficiary of fortune timing and serendipity at Jints Central...
“I had actually been asking him [for clarity],” Flowers told NJ Advance Media “That was part of the reason why I didn’t go to [voluntary workouts in 2018]. I was looking for a fresh start. He had [trade] offers for me, and he didn’t want to take them. So he made me stay there, until finally I had a chance to go. I was mad about it, but it’s OK. I’m over it.”
So Gettleman actually had trade offers for Flowers, told Flowers that he was going to try and move him, but then ended up turning down all of those offers? That's amazing.
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In comment 14588258 jcn56 said:
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In comment 14587502 USAF NYG Fan said:
Quote:
Giants/Gettleman didn't have much of a choice. They had an urgent need for a LT and had to quickly convert to a 3-4 without the players (LBs) to do so.
And that in a nutshell is why you shouldn't compare the Giants to Belichick, ever.
Look at that last sentence - Belichick also needed a LT and didn't bother paying Solder. And for good reason - he got a huge contract he wasn't worth.
This narrative is just flat out false. Belichick DID try to resign Solder and offered him a very big contract. The Giants offered more. This idea that Belichick just decided to let Solder walk is repeated around here and it’s untrue. They tried bringing him back. Look it up. It’s not hard to find. It doesn’t fit your agenda, but those are the facts.
You talk a lot of shit about agenda and narrative and of course don't back any of it up.
So, a quick Google indicated you were, as usual, extremely wrong. At least you're consistent. Pats didn't offer a contract anything like the Giants did - ( New Window )
Nate Solder disagrees...
Pats, Giants offered similar money - ( New Window )
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Ex-Giants offensive tackle Ereck Flowers is in Washington, too, after Gettleman released him midway through last season. Flowers struggled with the Giants, so the move made sense. Flowers’ frustration with Gettleman actually stems from the GM not shipping him out sooner.
“I had actually been asking him [for clarity],” Flowers told NJ Advance Media “That was part of the reason why I didn’t go to [voluntary workouts in 2018]. I was looking for a fresh start. He had [trade] offers for me, and he didn’t want to take them. So he made me stay there, until finally I had a chance to go. I was mad about it, but it’s OK. I’m over it.”
So Gettleman actually had trade offers for Flowers, told Flowers that he was going to try and move him, but then ended up turning down all of those offers? That's amazing.
Where does it say he told Flowers something?
Nate Solder disagrees... Pats, Giants offered similar money - ( New Window )
Good God, did you even bother to read the article you linked? Now you're linking shit that proves YOU wrong:
The article also goes on to point out that NE's offer was highly incentive based. So, if Solder had a shit first season, they could have cut bait and been off the hook. It's a typical structure for an NE contract.
But by all means, don't let facts get in the way of a good hissy fit.
No sorry.
Please explain what a “dishonest view of analytics” is?
What the fuck are you talking about?
A dishonest view of analytics is taking a snippet from a press conference and saying that Gettleman shuns analytics and then after being shown he implemented the analytics program in Carolina, going through a bunch of gymnastics to say "well, it isn't the right analytics".
Dishonest in analytics is also taking the view that PFF actually has something to contribute because it is "data". It isn't. It is all qualitative analysis that is done by subjective criteria. That isn't data and it is about as anti-analytics as one can get.
The funniest thing about our debates is that I'm pro-analytics and you call me a luddite. Why? Because you are a fucking moron.
When you are down 14 late in the game what do the analytics say? Go for two each time you score. Well what if your QB has the flu and his game looks off. Your kicker is perfect on the year extra points. Do you still go for it?
What do you think analyst estimates are? Is that not data because there are qualitative inputs?
There isn't a right and wrong analytics. I've suggested that other than on field evidence (ala applied game theory) the qualifications of the people building them and yes even the culture in the building and the way the leaders speak are also good markers for if there are likely the right processes in place to build great teach. McL went as far as to look up github libraries and found no code from the Giants but many other teams.
You act like i'm just being some arbiter of analytics when unsurprisingly the people that work in analytics have brought a lot of evidence to the table and you just bombastic skeptic garbage.
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Nate Solder disagrees... Pats, Giants offered similar money - ( New Window )
Good God, did you even bother to read the article you linked? Now you're linking shit that proves YOU wrong:
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As NBC Boston Sports' Tom Curran added, the Patriots made a solid offer last week that would have made Solder one of the highest-paid offensive tackles in the NFL. However, New England's offer was reportedly not equal to New York's so the three teams Solder is talking about might have been the Giants, the Houston Texans and the Cleveland Browns.
The article also goes on to point out that NE's offer was highly incentive based. So, if Solder had a shit first season, they could have cut bait and been off the hook. It's a typical structure for an NE contract.
But by all means, don't let facts get in the way of a good hissy fit.
What? How the hell does that artistically prove ME wrong? It plainly states that the Pats wanted to bring him back. And offered a competitive offer as the Giants. The only difference was it was incentive based. Solder has said this. You’re acting as if the Pats had no interest in bringing him back. They obviously did! Is it really shocking that another team would have to outbid New England if they wanted him? How the hell does that make the Giants incompetent and the Pats brilliant? The Pats wanted him back. The Giants didn’t have the luxury of making demands on incentives. That’s how free agency works. Stop acting like they had no interest in bringing him back. They obviously did.
As NBC Boston Sports' Tom Curran added, the Patriots made a solid offer last week that would have made Solder one of the highest-paid offensive tackles in the NFL. However, New England's offer was reportedly not equal to New York's so the three teams Solder is talking about might have been the Giants, the Houston Texans and the Cleveland Browns.
So the Pats were willing to make him “one of the highest paid tackles in football” yet they “weren’t willing to pay him” (your words) in your eyes? Haha. Classic. And I’m the one that is wrong here...
NoGainDayne : 6:56 pm : link : reply
anything that goes through a process like PFF does absolutely has potentially relevant signaling.
You do realize that PFF isn't using "data" at all. They are making subjective analyses based on uneducated guesses.
You also do realize that NO NFL teams utilize PFF player grades and that some don't even consider them directionally correct, right?
There are at least three analytic teams from the NFL that have reviewed PFF ratings and concluded they aren't even in a +/- 20% error range. That is horrific.
PFF is nothing but stat porn for fans.
As NBC Boston Sports' Tom Curran added, the Patriots made a solid offer last week that would have made Solder one of the highest-paid offensive tackles in the NFL. However, New England's offer was reportedly not equal to New York's so the three teams Solder is talking about might have been the Giants, the Houston Texans and the Cleveland Browns.
So the Pats were willing to make him “one of the highest paid tackles in football” yet they “weren’t willing to pay him” (your words) in your eyes? Haha. Classic. And I’m the one that is wrong here...
You keep pretending that the Pats made any concerted effort to bring this guy back, when 3 other teams are listed as the ones topping the bidding, and the article goes out of it's way to point out how heavily incentive based his contract was.
Only one dummy was willing to make Solder the highest paid OLT in the game, and he happens to be the same guy who gave OBJ a ton of money just to create a giant crater in their cap a few months later.
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Not all data is good data but
NoGainDayne : 6:56 pm : link : reply
anything that goes through a process like PFF does absolutely has potentially relevant signaling.
You do realize that PFF isn't using "data" at all. They are making subjective analyses based on uneducated guesses.
You also do realize that NO NFL teams utilize PFF player grades and that some don't even consider them directionally correct, right?
There are at least three analytic teams from the NFL that have reviewed PFF ratings and concluded they aren't even in a +/- 20% error range. That is horrific.
PFF is nothing but stat porn for fans.
God this so much. Often PFF will be the complete opposite of what the team grades are. What qualifications do the people have that do the scoring? That doesn't even deal with the obvious flaws anyone with a functioning brain can see in their plus minus scale that they explain on their site. CC was able to use his SNF platform to shoehorn PFF grades into the game, and the networks can tell the dummy on the couch eats that shit up so he has something to argue about with his friends. It has no actual bearing on its effectiveness, its a made for TV rating.
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You pulled from the article...
As NBC Boston Sports' Tom Curran added, the Patriots made a solid offer last week that would have made Solder one of the highest-paid offensive tackles in the NFL. However, New England's offer was reportedly not equal to New York's so the three teams Solder is talking about might have been the Giants, the Houston Texans and the Cleveland Browns.
So the Pats were willing to make him “one of the highest paid tackles in football” yet they “weren’t willing to pay him” (your words) in your eyes? Haha. Classic. And I’m the one that is wrong here...
You keep pretending that the Pats made any concerted effort to bring this guy back, when 3 other teams are listed as the ones topping the bidding, and the article goes out of it's way to point out how heavily incentive based his contract was.
Only one dummy was willing to make Solder the highest paid OLT in the game, and he happens to be the same guy who gave OBJ a ton of money just to create a giant crater in their cap a few months later.
Solder's play since the second half of last season has been very good. But keep banging the drum its a dog shit contract. The Patriots would have kept paying him that money because their was no reason for them to opt out the contract based on the incentives he was likely to earn, whether it was playing time based or performance.