for display only
Big Blue Interactive The Corner Forum  
Back to the Corner

Archived Thread

Here's how Jones can instantly improve the offense over Eli

Britt in VA : 9/19/2019 10:12 am
It's based on two things I've seen this week. The first, is based on Jackrabbit's rant:

Quote:
“When you’ve got time [to throw] and you ain’t getting no pressure, I can’t cover nobody for 10 seconds,” Jenkins said, via NJ.com. “Who can cover somebody for 10 seconds? Go look at the first five seconds of the route. He’s not open. If you’re scrambling and there ain’t no pressure getting there, what do you want me to do? I can’t cover this side and that side. Come on, bro. We’ve got to play football around here.”


the next, had to do with Brian Baldinger's defense of Eli Manning and how no receivers are open in a twitter breakdown video:

Baldy Breakdown of Manning

It's clear from the Baldy Breakdown that our WR's are not getting open before the pass rush is getting to Manning. What we need Jones to do, is not take off running for the first down, but rather run to a different spot, reset, and buy our WR's the extra 5 seconds or so for the coverage to break down.

However, this can't be all on Jones. One alarming thing from the Baldy Breakdown was that when Eli tried to do this, rolled out, bought time, and re-established the launching point, nobody came back to the ball. I know these WR's are young and inexperienced, but they've got to start practicing coming back to the ball when the QB breaks the pocket. In fact, they should start to expect it.

Now the drops are a different story, it is what it is and this is what we're working with. But consistently re-establishing the pocket and different points on the field to throw from should throw an element of unpredictability that you can't necessarily gameplan for, and should add a new wrinkle into our offense that wasn't there before. That's what I'm hoping for anyways.

Daniel Jones is built like a mobile pocket passer. He's a big dude. We don't need him to run for the first down. We just need him to buy us that extra five seconds.
I think  
cjac : 9/19/2019 10:15 am : link
and this based on a lot of the college film and the small amount in the preseason.

But it seems to me that he is a "run as a last resort" type. Whereas a lot of mobile QBs are looking for that opening to run
plain and simple  
hitdog42 : 9/19/2019 10:16 am : link
he needs defenses to believe he is a threat to run and a threat if moved off his spot in the pocket. he doesnt even have to do it- but being a threat changes the entire headspace of a defense.

for 5 years defenses have tee'd off on 1 spot and gone up-field or bull rushed through- with no fears of a negative outcome
Based on the beating that a lot of these more mobile,  
Britt in VA : 9/19/2019 10:16 am : link
large QB's have taken, I think I'd prefer that.
When Jones  
Gman11 : 9/19/2019 10:18 am : link
bootlegs or rolls the defense has to be wary of his ability to run. With Eli, they didn't have to worry about that.
Be like Aaron Rodgers. Run  
Big Blue '56 : 9/19/2019 10:18 am : link
only when you need to.
Eli  
AcidTest : 9/19/2019 10:20 am : link
can't move. He can't extend plays. That's why you go to Jones, along with what he showed in the preseason.
also, I do agree with others that this can open up some new wrinkles..  
Britt in VA : 9/19/2019 10:20 am : link
of the playbook if they're in there, sprint outs, moving the launch point, moving the pocket, which should keep defenses guessing and also open up the run game a little more.
i dont think people understand  
hitdog42 : 9/19/2019 10:22 am : link
how much pressure an immobile QB puts on offensive lines- with what defenses are allowed to do because of it.
and our line is actually decent now, in prior years it was awful but would have looked less bad
2nd and 3rd and short is where it lies.  
bigbluehoya : 9/19/2019 10:22 am : link
put even one or two pieces of film out there showing that Jones can pants you with a read-option, and remind them just one/two times every other week, and Saquon's road up the middle gets a little easier, and the play action deep shot gets a little easier.
As long as he doesnt drop his eyes  
CromartiesKid21 : 9/19/2019 10:25 am : link
while scrambling I'm very excited to have a dual threat QB
I made two posts yesterday  
BSIMatt : 9/19/2019 10:25 am : link
one highlighting Jones athleticism, and the other highlighting the inefficiency of the passing game and comparing Eli's running ability to Case Keenum in 2017. Could even bring up Nick Foles under Shurmur from a few years back.

I think mobility of Jones is a component of making this change because with the lack of juice at WR we need something else to give the offense some sort of advantage.
Another thing to consider  
JFIB : 9/19/2019 10:27 am : link
In regards to drops by the WR's. DJ throws a very catchable ball from what we've heard. Eli's receivers have always been at the bottom of the league as far as drops have been concerned. Maybe Eli's passes are harder to catch? We've all seen the ducks.
RE: plain and simple  
Rudy5757 : 9/19/2019 10:29 am : link
In comment 14587525 hitdog42 said:
Quote:
he needs defenses to believe he is a threat to run and a threat if moved off his spot in the pocket. he doesnt even have to do it- but being a threat changes the entire headspace of a defense.

for 5 years defenses have tee'd off on 1 spot and gone up-field or bull rushed through- with no fears of a negative outcome


This^

Basically give them multiple looks from a passing standpoint and every now and again pull it down and run for 5 yards, 10 yards. I dont want to see him plow through anyone. Run for 5 yards and slide. get the 1st and slide.

The rollout of Eli in the 1st game in the red zone with basically the only option to pass makes it too easy. Eli was just too slow to open that play up. there is no hesitation with the D. Oh shit the QB is running giving the WR a little space to work with or giving Jones the space to run.

no one wants to see Jones running all over the field but a few yards here and there is what we need. Eli ran for 500 yards in 15 seasons. I think Jones can at least get 200 in a season, just enough to keep the D on its heels like Aaron Rodgers does.
I want to see DJ8  
Coach Red Beaulieu : 9/19/2019 10:46 am : link
running 80 yard TDs and separating from DBs like at Duke.
I agree Hitdog  
RollBlue : 9/19/2019 10:51 am : link
it's one of the things people underestimate in terms of making the O-Line job harder. We have at least 4 former Lineman starting on other teams. If they were as horrible as everyone on this sight has been claiming, that wouldn't be the case. It may point to the fact that it's hard to get really quality lineman, of which the Giants are the norm, not the exception.
Hitdog is dead on  
Eric on Li : 9/19/2019 10:58 am : link
this offense doesn't have WR's who can win 1 on 1. But in a scramble drill anyone can break free.

On 95% of the plays that run as called we will be lucky if Jones properly executes them the way Eli did (many similar to Baldinger's analysis). Most likely Jones will make more mistakes and go through some growing pains.

Where Jones can literally be a game changer is on the other 5% of plays. If can turn a free blitzer from a sack into a scramble play that gets a first down, or even better a WR who breaks free into a long touchdown, that's a back breaker for the defense. We should know because we've had enough of those hit on us by Dak and Josh Allen already this year.
So the plan  
WillVAB : 9/19/2019 11:01 am : link
Is to buy an extra 5 seconds in the pocket and run a broken play offense? Come on man.
RE: So the plan  
Britt in VA : 9/19/2019 11:07 am : link
In comment 14587687 WillVAB said:
Quote:
Is to buy an extra 5 seconds in the pocket and run a broken play offense? Come on man.


Did I say that was the plan? I said here is how Jones can improve the offense is it currently is. By doing that.
That said....  
Britt in VA : 9/19/2019 11:08 am : link
as far as a plan goes, Jones being mobile does allow us to adjust our pass pro to a moving pocket and change the launch point which will keep the defense on it's toes.
Which may or may not be something they were not trying....  
Britt in VA : 9/19/2019 11:09 am : link
due to Manning at QB being a traditional dropback.
If that is not the reason...  
Britt in VA : 9/19/2019 11:09 am : link
then why put in Jones over Eli?
RE: I agree Hitdog  
Zeke's Alibi : 9/19/2019 11:10 am : link
In comment 14587652 RollBlue said:
Quote:
it's one of the things people underestimate in terms of making the O-Line job harder. We have at least 4 former Lineman starting on other teams. If they were as horrible as everyone on this sight has been claiming, that wouldn't be the case. It may point to the fact that it's hard to get really quality lineman, of which the Giants are the norm, not the exception.


This offensive line is good. Probably in the 8-12 range. They'll look markedly improved with DJ there, even though they won't be doing anything different.
RE: i dont think people understand  
ron mexico : 9/19/2019 11:14 am : link
In comment 14587564 hitdog42 said:
Quote:
how much pressure an immobile QB puts on offensive lines- with what defenses are allowed to do because of it.
and our line is actually decent now, in prior years it was awful but would have looked less bad


I agree with this 100%. Pass rushers didn't need to keep an eye on Eli, they just have to get to a spot and Eli would likely be somewhere in the vicinity.
The only chance the WR corp we have of doing anything is if  
PatersonPlank : 9/19/2019 11:19 am : link
they get more time to get open than other normal WR's need. Whether this comes from better OL pass protection, or from Jones scrambling around a bit, or a combination of the two, doesn't really matter. This was an underrated point about OBJ (who I am glad is gone so don't take this as we want him back), but he could always get open on his first cut. Eli knew this and would always be throwing it early.
RE: RE: So the plan  
WillVAB : 9/19/2019 11:21 am : link
In comment 14587702 Britt in VA said:
Quote:
In comment 14587687 WillVAB said:


Quote:


Is to buy an extra 5 seconds in the pocket and run a broken play offense? Come on man.



Did I say that was the plan? I said here is how Jones can improve the offense is it currently is. By doing that.


Your proposed improvement is based on the assumption that every other defense has a pass rush as shitty as ours. They don’t — our pass rush is easily the worst in the league.

Even assuming this is viable, how many plays is this a realistic possibility? 5 tops?
5 plays should be close to 10%  
bigbluehoya : 9/19/2019 11:23 am : link
of what you get to run in a game. How is that not significant even if your estimate is accurate?
RE: That said....  
WillVAB : 9/19/2019 11:23 am : link
In comment 14587706 Britt in VA said:
Quote:
as far as a plan goes, Jones being mobile does allow us to adjust our pass pro to a moving pocket and change the launch point which will keep the defense on it's toes.


Do you really trust Solder and Remmers in a moving pocket scenario?
Britt writes...  
bw in dc : 9/19/2019 11:23 am : link
Quote:
It's clear from the Baldy Breakdown that our WR's are not getting open before the pass rush is getting to Manning.


I think we need to be careful painting with a broad brush with this thought. Baldinger took 3-4 plays and framed it as if every play is like those.

That's some serious cherry picking and not something I would base any premise on.

I'm not suggesting we have a corp of great receivers. But not every play we run has receivers completely blanketed.
Let’s not forget Barkley when we talk about receivers.  
Big Blue '56 : 9/19/2019 11:26 am : link
Perhaps he’ll be even more effective with the wheel routes and screens with DJ.
If this extra dimension is insignificant, why make the change now?  
Britt in VA : 9/19/2019 11:28 am : link
What's the point?
Jones is a rookie  
.McL. : 9/19/2019 11:29 am : link
He will play like a rookie.

All you have to do is look at the other Cutcliffe proteges, Payton and Eli if you want to see what will happen his rookie year.

Also DJ is a pocket first passer. Can he run? Yes. However, watching him on film, he was never exactly an escape artist.

2019 for the Giants is not about winning now, its about learning and growth. They took the cap hit with a bunch of bad contracts, now they are going to take the rookie learning curve hit at QB.
Over Past 4 Seasons, Manning Has Been Asked  
clatterbuck : 9/19/2019 11:30 am : link
to operate a system not designed around his strengths and skills. Add to that the miserable offensive line play in front of him and the lack of success shouldn't really shock anyone. When Shurmur and Gettleman kept saying Manning can still play maybe what they really meant is, sure he can still play but not in the system we're trying to build here.
the sample size is small  
santacruzom : 9/19/2019 11:32 am : link
it may not compensate for other areas, and it ultimately may not bring about positive change to the offense for other reasons, but I was *really* impressed by Jones' play action fake on that long pass to either Lattimer or Tate in the first preseason game. His fake was outstanding and he turned around to face the defense so damn quickly. He also covered so much ground in his dropback.

I feel like Eli used to do that, and his play fakes were nearly identical to his actual hand offs. If Jones can do that as well as he did during preseason I think we'll really have something.
RE: If this extra dimension is insignificant, why make the change now?  
santacruzom : 9/19/2019 11:35 am : link
In comment 14587765 Britt in VA said:
Quote:
What's the point?


A majority of the decision could be based on the desire to give him game experience and better prepare him for the future.
I don't think they wanted to show  
Phil in LA : 9/19/2019 11:51 am : link
his run dimension in the preseason, or show too many RPO's. Btw, he can really throw the screen, which has always been a challenge for Eli, but a staple for these school of Andy guys,
I think his skill set fits better what Shurmur runs-  
Sean : 9/19/2019 11:54 am : link
Eli and WCO was never a fit which is the biggest crime of what was done to his career.

Gilbride was scapegoated after 2013, but we should have built the line back up and let Eli run the offense in which he won 2 SB’s. Instead McAdoo changed his footwork trying to make him be something he isn’t. A major blunder.
RE: Eli  
HoustonGiant : 9/19/2019 11:59 am : link
In comment 14587552 AcidTest said:
Quote:
can't move. He can't extend plays. That's why you go to Jones, along with what he showed in the preseason.


Watching the Eli highlights, you see how he has definitely lost 1 of the 3 total steps he had.

At his peak  
Phil in LA : 9/19/2019 12:12 pm : link
Eli had outstanding pocket mobility, announcers used to harp on it. Escapability, not so much, He used to also be about to throw off his back foot with authority. Now they are ducks.
The one thing the Bills defense did after the first series  
Section331 : 9/19/2019 12:42 pm : link
was crash the edges to try and keep Saquon contained. Jones' mobility can help counter any teams trying to replicate that.
Better accuracy, mobility extending plays and  
VinegarPeppers : 9/19/2019 1:08 pm : link
a virgin record. So no history to feel coming on if you make a mistake. No "Eli face" if you toss an INT. Just recover and won't think "here we go again". Fresh perspective.

And picking up a couple first downs or a keeper for a score with your legs can be huge.
RE: I want to see DJ8  
Simms11 : 9/19/2019 1:31 pm : link
In comment 14587639 Coach Red Beaulieu said:
Quote:
running 80 yard TDs and separating from DBs like at Duke.


Me too, but probably unrealistic to think he'll be ripping off 89 yard runs weekly, but he needs to show he can run, in order to be considered a threat.
RE: Hitdog is dead on  
Giantz_comeback : 9/19/2019 1:53 pm : link
In comment 14587680 Eric on Li said:
Quote:
this offense doesn't have WR's who can win 1 on 1. But in a scramble drill anyone can break free.

On 95% of the plays that run as called we will be lucky if Jones properly executes them the way Eli did (many similar to Baldinger's analysis). Most likely Jones will make more mistakes and go through some growing pains.

Where Jones can literally be a game changer is on the other 5% of plays. If can turn a free blitzer from a sack into a scramble play that gets a first down, or even better a WR who breaks free into a long touchdown, that's a back breaker for the defense. We should know because we've had enough of those hit on us by Dak and Josh Allen already this year.


Dont jump to conclusions. Our 3 to 5 WRs are no great shakes but Shep has shown he can win and Tate certainly has too. Throw in Engram and Barkley and a QB that may be able to buy some time with his legs , we may have something pretty good.
That one play that Baldy referenced in that video was wrong...  
MM_in_NYC : 9/19/2019 2:28 pm : link
and i have no idea how he watched that and came to the conclusion he did. The two receivers on the side of the field Eli was rolling to did indeed maneuver to make themselves open. The one guy on the far side of the field did not, as he was basically triple covered. But the two guys on the side Eli rolled towards certainly did.
Fabulous  
PaulN : 9/19/2019 3:53 pm : link
Now while he is running, lets hope he can hold onto the ball, because he fumbled before it got serious, now it gets serious, hope if he does fumble and the opposition start abusing him he doesn't get rattled and lose his confidence. What happens then?
RE: The one thing the Bills defense did after the first series  
BSIMatt : 9/19/2019 3:53 pm : link
In comment 14587958 Section331 said:
Quote:
was crash the edges to try and keep Saquon contained. Jones' mobility can help counter any teams trying to replicate that.


We were doing same thing to Zeke in first Dallas game last year and a more than a few times Dak kept it and went around left end(who was cheating/crashing in completely ignoring him) for some big gains(10+ yards)
RE: If that is not the reason...  
Jimmy Googs : 9/19/2019 4:07 pm : link
In comment 14587710 Britt in VA said:
Quote:
then why put in Jones over Eli?


It seems there can be several reasons including thoughts around accuracy, anticipating and not hesitating, throwing tighter spirals and additional plays that can be orchestrated, amongst others.

Not to say Jones is superior in all these but maybe Shurmur has seen enough of Eli struggling with these in first 2 games...
RE: I don't think they wanted to show  
Jimmy Googs : 9/19/2019 4:09 pm : link
In comment 14587817 Phil in LA said:
Quote:
his run dimension in the preseason, or show too many RPO's. Btw, he can really throw the screen, which has always been a challenge for Eli, but a staple for these school of Andy guys,


Eli struggled with screen passes?
I hate what the OP is proposing  
giantstock : 9/19/2019 11:30 pm : link
I think DJ's strength is a pocket QB. I want him in the pocket. I want him ot develop not to his strength and not worry about adapting to an awful set of WR's that won't be part of a potentially successful Giants team success in the future.
RE: I hate what the OP is proposing  
giantstock : 9/19/2019 11:32 pm : link
In comment 14589033 giantstock said:
Quote:
I think DJ's strength is a pocket QB. I want him in the pocket. I want him to develop to his strength and not worry about adapting to an awful set of WR's that won't be part of a potentially successful Giants team success in the future.


I want him to develop to his strength I meant to say. SHouldn't have to worry about adapting this poor core of bottom tier WR's.
RE: Britt writes...  
Mike in Boston : 9/20/2019 6:09 am : link
In comment 14587753 bw in dc said:
Quote:


Quote:


It's clear from the Baldy Breakdown that our WR's are not getting open before the pass rush is getting to Manning.



I think we need to be careful painting with a broad brush with this thought. Baldinger took 3-4 plays and framed it as if every play is like those.

That's some serious cherry picking and not something I would base any premise on.

I'm not suggesting we have a corp of great receivers. But not every play we run has receivers completely blanketed.


But I did see stats on how much separation our receivers had overall and they were pretty raunchy. Cody Latimer was the best of the wideout at 1.8 yards on average, which is well below the league average. (Engram was the best on the Giants at 3.5 which is pretty reasonable. )
Jones must make quick decisions on third down  
mako J : 9/20/2019 8:17 am : link
He showed in preseason he's capable of locking on a target too long and not feeling the rush. His knock in college was slow decisions. This isn't preseason and he will undoubtedly be confused by looks. He must get the ball out on time and he must improve his ball security. He'll make some great throws and plays on schedule in the early downs but it remains to be seen how he handles NFL third downs...which separates the boys from the men.
no matter the receivers  
nygiants16 : 9/20/2019 8:26 am : link
his ability to move around will help the receivers, aaron rodgers has one of the best wide receovers in the league and his moving around makes that offense go..

you will see the difference when barkley gets going and that first play action roll out you will see the backers have to make a tough decision..

Also eli could not run play action from under center because he was to slow changes the effect of play action
Ball security is the only  
section125 : 9/20/2019 8:32 am : link
thing that worries me about Jones. But seeing how many fumbles Eli has had through his career, it should be a wash at worst.
I also think that Jones accuracy can throw WR open. He did it pre-season with the same WRs.
It won't be a bed of roses, but I really expect an improvement on offense.

And yes, The Aaron Rodgers style of run only if necessary is preferred. Not sure I want a rookie QB running.
RE: Jones must make quick decisions on third down  
giantstock : 9/20/2019 12:21 pm : link
In comment 14589155 mako J said:
Quote:
He showed in preseason he's capable of locking on a target too long and not feeling the rush. His knock in college was slow decisions. This isn't preseason and he will undoubtedly be confused by looks. He must get the ball out on time and he must improve his ball security. He'll make some great throws and plays on schedule in the early downs but it remains to be seen how he handles NFL third downs...which separates the boys from the men.


+1.

I know many on here see him as a very good scrambler that can pass well off of it. I'm not sold on that. Just because he is better than ELi at scrambling doesn't mean he is good at it. I look forward to seeing how often he moves out of the pocket on designed plays - how successful he is throwing the ball.

Also looking forward to see his maneuverability within the pocket and the results. I suspect at times he'll breakaway with some gains. But he seems to me to be more "fast" than "quick." But time will tell. Can't wait.
Back to the Corner