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HOF: Favre vs. Manning

DeepBlueJint : 9/20/2019 9:10 am
I believe this is a relevant comparison. FWIW.

Brett Favre
Games:302
Record:186-112
TD:508
Int: 336
Yards: 71838
Rate:86.0
Fumbles/Lost: 166/73
Comp Pct: 62.0
Years:20
Super Bowl Victories: XXXI
NFC Champion: 2 - 1996, 1997
NFC North Champion: 7 - 1995-1997, 2002-2004, 2007

Eli Manning
Games:234
Record: 116-116
TD:362
Int: 241
Yards: 56537
Rate:84.1
Fumbles/Lost: 124/56
Comp Pct: 60.3
Years: 16
Super Bowl Victories: 2
NFC Champion: 2 - 2007, 2011
NFC East Champion: 3 - 2005, 2008, 2011
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RE: Geezus  
Junior22 : 9/20/2019 11:22 am : link
In comment 14589432 Johnny5 said:
Quote:
The disrespect that Eli gets on this site from actual Giants fans is fucking absurd.


So in order to show respect we must lie about the type of player Eli is and was?
RE: RE: Geezus  
Johnny5 : 9/20/2019 11:24 am : link
In comment 14589493 Junior22 said:
Quote:
In comment 14589432 Johnny5 said:


Quote:


The disrespect that Eli gets on this site from actual Giants fans is fucking absurd.



So in order to show respect we must lie about the type of player Eli is and was?

WTF are you actually talking about?
Yeah, you are still not getting it...  
Jimmy Googs : 9/20/2019 11:25 am : link
It isn't disrespect for Eli. We are all well-aware of his regular season performances and post-season achievements in 2007 and 2011 which probably are enough to get him into the HOF.

We are just stating its folly to use Brett Favre (or Aaron Rodgers by the way as someone was ridiculously trying yesterday) as the benchmark to determine Eli's chances...
RE: RE: RE: Geezus  
Gatorade Dunk : 9/20/2019 11:29 am : link
In comment 14589488 Johnny5 said:
Quote:
In comment 14589439 Gatorade Dunk said:


Quote:


In comment 14589432 Johnny5 said:


Quote:


The disrespect that Eli gets on this site from actual Giants fans is fucking absurd.


You might be confusing people pointing out that you're fucking delusional for claiming Eli was the best QB in the NFL in 2011 with disrespect for Eli. It wasn't. It was disrespect for fiction.


lol whatever dude.

Had the Giants (as a TEAM) been more consistent over the course of the season, Manning would have had more looks for MVP. But who knows?

It was a regular season stats fight between Rodgers and Brees who were sitting home eating popcorn while Manning was winning his second Super Bowl ring. Oh and a second SB MVP trophy. And who beat the regular season MVP twice that season (his only 2 losses that year), including sending them home to their couches for the season... lol

Say what you want about Eli, and you are one of the ones who never gives the guy any credit for whatever dumb reason, but Eli carried the team that year. Statistically he had a monster season but straight Stats wise yeah not the league MVP. Stats don't tell the whole story. He was the best QB in the league that year, especially down the stretch.

He won the Super Bowl. He won the SB MVP. There's no denying that he had a tremendous season. But he wasn't even close to the best QB in the league that year.

And that's fine if you think I never give the guy any credit, but I actually do. I just don't bruise my knees and chap my lips in the process.
Favre  
Osi Osi Osi OyOyOy : 9/20/2019 11:34 am : link
No question
Favre won three MVPs in four years  
Greg from LI : 9/20/2019 11:37 am : link
I mean, come on, we're really having this discussion?
RE: RE: RE: RE: Geezus  
Section331 : 9/20/2019 11:38 am : link
In comment 14589500 Gatorade Dunk said:
Quote:

He won the Super Bowl. He won the SB MVP. There's no denying that he had a tremendous season. But he wasn't even close to the best QB in the league that year.

And that's fine if you think I never give the guy any credit, but I actually do. I just don't bruise my knees and chap my lips in the process.


It's fine to say he wasn't the best QB in the league that year, but not even close? 4th in yards, 4th in YPA, 7th in TD passes. All of that with a deteriorating OL, the 31st ranked rushing attack, and the 27th ranked defense.

And you wonder why people don't think you give him any credit?
RE: Favre won three MVPs in four years  
Section331 : 9/20/2019 11:39 am : link
In comment 14589512 Greg from LI said:
Quote:
I mean, come on, we're really having this discussion?


I don't think that was the OP's point, which he could have made clearer. I think what he is saying is that if Favre is a no-doubt, 1st ballot HOF'er, how can Eli not get in.
The two aren't comparable.......  
BillKo : 9/20/2019 11:40 am : link
......in terms of pure stats and QB play.

Farve is an all time great.

Eli is a franchise QB who has an accomplished resume which will get him into the HOF. Players like that exist in the HOF today.

RE: Eli Manning....  
fanatic II : 9/20/2019 11:47 am : link
In comment 14589282 Gary JC said:
Quote:
...is a 1st ballot HOFer. But, keep discussing it if it makes you feel better. Oh, and there's 5 QBs in the history of the league with multiple SB MVPs. Can you name them?


Bart Starr, QB of the team of the 60s.
Terry Bradshaw, QB of the team of the 70s.
Joe Montana, QB of the team of the 80s.
Tom Brady, QB of the team of the 00s and 10s.

Eli Manning, 6 playoff appearances in 16 years. 2 SBs and four one and done.

Which one doesn't fit?
If Namath is in, Eli should be in...  
Rong5611 : 9/20/2019 11:48 am : link
Based on his playoff runs alone, he belongs. First Ballot, maybe not (although he should be).
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: Geezus  
Gatorade Dunk : 9/20/2019 11:50 am : link
In comment 14589514 Section331 said:
Quote:
In comment 14589500 Gatorade Dunk said:


Quote:



He won the Super Bowl. He won the SB MVP. There's no denying that he had a tremendous season. But he wasn't even close to the best QB in the league that year.

And that's fine if you think I never give the guy any credit, but I actually do. I just don't bruise my knees and chap my lips in the process.



It's fine to say he wasn't the best QB in the league that year, but not even close? 4th in yards, 4th in YPA, 7th in TD passes. All of that with a deteriorating OL, the 31st ranked rushing attack, and the 27th ranked defense.

And you wonder why people don't think you give him any credit?

I said he wasn't the best, and probably not even top 3. And you just pointed out that he was 4th, 4th, 7th, in three significant statistical categories. I think my inclusion of the word "probably" was already giving him credit. But no, he wasn't the top QB that year, and it's not like we're splitting hairs to say that.

Was he close in the rankings? Yes. But was he close in terms of "would a reasonable and impartial football fan consider Eli the top QB in the league that year?" That would be much closer to 100% no. So in that sense - simply in the context of the argument, it's really not close.
You guys do know that both Eli and Favre can be  
jcn56 : 9/20/2019 11:51 am : link
in the HOF at once, right? Getting one in doesn't knock out the other.

I think Eli makes it, but if you guys believe he's a sure fire first ballot entry, I think you might be disappointed. Some of that is on Eli's inconsistency, and the rest is on the voters.
Actually, re-reading, I didn't use "probably"  
Gatorade Dunk : 9/20/2019 11:52 am : link
I said "wasn't even really" top 3, so I apologize for harping on that word when I had edited it out in my initial post about 2011.
LOL!  
mdthedream : 9/20/2019 12:58 pm : link
It is not close. I am a Giants fan but lets get real Farve was one hell of a QB and always one of the tope QBs in the league.
RE: Yeah, you are still not getting it...  
Johnny5 : 9/20/2019 1:19 pm : link
In comment 14589498 Jimmy Googs said:
Quote:

We are just stating its folly to use Brett Favre (or Aaron Rodgers by the way as someone was ridiculously trying yesterday) as the benchmark to determine Eli's chances...

Well, maybe YOU are stating that. And I don't disagree. Different animals. Personally I think Eli will be first ballot.
It is obviously not close for the reasons stated  
Essex : 9/20/2019 1:25 pm : link
Favre was a three time MVP, best QB in football, etc etc

The one thing I would say is that their QB Ratings are similar, which is the big knock in showing Eli was an average QB. But, both QBs--Favre and Eli--played in a risky offense and were gunslingers and that is the reason why Eli's rating is lower and why when people evaluate at him they don't really get how good he was earlier in his career.
Favre also played the bulk of his career...  
Greg from LI : 9/20/2019 1:28 pm : link
....in a league that catered to the passing game much less
RE: RE: Yeah, you are still not getting it...  
Gatorade Dunk : 9/20/2019 1:55 pm : link
In comment 14589719 Johnny5 said:
Quote:
In comment 14589498 Jimmy Googs said:


Quote:



We are just stating its folly to use Brett Favre (or Aaron Rodgers by the way as someone was ridiculously trying yesterday) as the benchmark to determine Eli's chances...


Well, maybe YOU are stating that. And I don't disagree. Different animals. Personally I think Eli will be first ballot.

It depends who else is up for enshrinement that year. With Roethlisberger and Brees both injured, and Brady at 42 years old, what if all three of them, plus Eli, retire at the end of this season? The odds of four QBs from the same era going in at the same time are pretty slim, IMO, and I think in this hypothetical, Eli would be no higher than third on the list, most likely fourth. If that's how it plays out, Eli is very unlikely to be a first ballot HOFer.

But if none of them except for Eli retire this year, that helps his odds of being first ballot tremendously, because he'll be up for consideration first among his peers, and will have the advantage of being among the first of the pass happy generation to be considered - his stats look better against historical comparisons than against his current peers in the same era, and that will only get magnified in the years between his retirement and his first appearance on the ballot, IMO.

Bottom line (for me), is that Eli is no sure thing to be a first ballot HOFer regardless, because there are more blemishes on his overall resume than many Giants fans choose to acknowledge (or at least there are blemishes that HOF voters just won't contextualize the way that fans do). There's a chance that he goes in first ballot, I don't think it's ridiculous to suggest it, but it's enough of a borderline case that things like what other QBs retire the same year as him will matter a lot.
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: Geezus  
Section331 : 9/20/2019 2:16 pm : link
In comment 14589538 Gatorade Dunk said:
Quote:

I said he wasn't the best, and probably not even top 3. And you just pointed out that he was 4th, 4th, 7th, in three significant statistical categories. I think my inclusion of the word "probably" was already giving him credit. But no, he wasn't the top QB that year, and it's not like we're splitting hairs to say that.

Was he close in the rankings? Yes. But was he close in terms of "would a reasonable and impartial football fan consider Eli the top QB in the league that year?" That would be much closer to 100% no. So in that sense - simply in the context of the argument, it's really not close.


You said "he wasn't even close" to being the best QB that year. Read your own post, I'm not making that up. And I also stand by what I said, he did all of that with one of the worst OL's in the league, the next to last rushing attack and the 27th ranked defense. Yes, you are going out of your way not to give him credit.
RE: Yeah, you are still not getting it...  
DeepBlueJint : 9/20/2019 2:58 pm : link
In comment 14589498 Jimmy Googs said:
Quote:
It isn't disrespect for Eli. We are all well-aware of his regular season performances and post-season achievements in 2007 and 2011 which probably are enough to get him into the HOF.

We are just stating its folly to use Brett Favre (or Aaron Rodgers by the way as someone was ridiculously trying yesterday) as the benchmark to determine Eli's chances...


The purpose of the statistical comparison was NOT that Eli is a first ballet HoF. It is not even that he necessarily should be a HoF. What it represents in NUMBERS that he compares quite well, statistically. PERIOD. Go deny that!

I could care less how many after season accolades, beauty pageant awards from media and fans that Favre got. I did not even mention Eli's MVPs as well. These are popularity contests. B-t-W, when did any player or media personality ever complain about these awards given to any of the athletes? I can't recall. As a Giant fan, all I want is a Super Bowl and Eli led us to two of them. And that is one more than Favre. And he beat Favre, head-to-head in the ice bowl NFC Championship in 2007.

What matters is what happened on the field not the hype of "gunslinger" BS. Favre had a lot of warts too.

For the record, I do believe Eli will ultimately get into the HoF.
RE: RE: Yeah, you are still not getting it...  
Jimmy Googs : 9/20/2019 3:24 pm : link
In comment 14589864 DeepBlueJint said:
Quote:
In comment 14589498 Jimmy Googs said:


Quote:


It isn't disrespect for Eli. We are all well-aware of his regular season performances and post-season achievements in 2007 and 2011 which probably are enough to get him into the HOF.

We are just stating its folly to use Brett Favre (or Aaron Rodgers by the way as someone was ridiculously trying yesterday) as the benchmark to determine Eli's chances...



The purpose of the statistical comparison was NOT that Eli is a first ballet HoF. It is not even that he necessarily should be a HoF. What it represents in NUMBERS that he compares quite well, statistically. PERIOD. Go deny that!

I could care less how many after season accolades, beauty pageant awards from media and fans that Favre got. I did not even mention Eli's MVPs as well. These are popularity contests. B-t-W, when did any player or media personality ever complain about these awards given to any of the athletes? I can't recall. As a Giant fan, all I want is a Super Bowl and Eli led us to two of them. And that is one more than Favre. And he beat Favre, head-to-head in the ice bowl NFC Championship in 2007.

What matters is what happened on the field not the hype of "gunslinger" BS. Favre had a lot of warts too.

For the record, I do believe Eli will ultimately get into the HoF.


You're all over the board on this and clearly a bit too animated. But I will give it a go...

I have never mentioned first vs non first ballot...I think Eli gets in. A bunch of you all will have a meltdown if he doesnt get in Yr1, but that's obvious.

The title of your OP is Favre vs Manning and you lay out stats but they really aren't comparable except maybe the interceptions. Favre was a much more frequent winner.

You don't mention league MVPs because Favre won a few and Eli didnt.

If the only thing that matters to you is SuperBowl wins, then why didn't you just make a simple one sentence OP and state its 2-1 in favor of Eli?


I don't think he is going to get in  
moespree : 9/20/2019 3:31 pm : link
I think he should, but I'm not a voter. And the people who are, I don't have much confidence in. Some of them have been open in the past about their dislike of Eli and their thoughts that he isn't more than average.

Is what it is. I just don't think he's ever going to get in.
RE: RE: RE: Yeah, you are still not getting it...  
DeepBlueJint : 9/20/2019 3:40 pm : link
In comment 14589894 Jimmy Googs said:
Quote:
In comment 14589864 DeepBlueJint said:


Quote:


In comment 14589498 Jimmy Googs said:


Quote:


It isn't disrespect for Eli. We are all well-aware of his regular season performances and post-season achievements in 2007 and 2011 which probably are enough to get him into the HOF.

We are just stating its folly to use Brett Favre (or Aaron Rodgers by the way as someone was ridiculously trying yesterday) as the benchmark to determine Eli's chances...



The purpose of the statistical comparison was NOT that Eli is a first ballet HoF. It is not even that he necessarily should be a HoF. What it represents in NUMBERS that he compares quite well, statistically. PERIOD. Go deny that!

I could care less how many after season accolades, beauty pageant awards from media and fans that Favre got. I did not even mention Eli's MVPs as well. These are popularity contests. B-t-W, when did any player or media personality ever complain about these awards given to any of the athletes? I can't recall. As a Giant fan, all I want is a Super Bowl and Eli led us to two of them. And that is one more than Favre. And he beat Favre, head-to-head in the ice bowl NFC Championship in 2007.

What matters is what happened on the field not the hype of "gunslinger" BS. Favre had a lot of warts too.

For the record, I do believe Eli will ultimately get into the HoF.



You're all over the board on this and clearly a bit too animated. But I will give it a go...

I have never mentioned first vs non first ballot...I think Eli gets in. A bunch of you all will have a meltdown if he doesnt get in Yr1, but that's obvious.

The title of your OP is Favre vs Manning and you lay out stats but they really aren't comparable except maybe the interceptions. Favre was a much more frequent winner.

You don't mention league MVPs because Favre won a few and Eli didnt.

If the only thing that matters to you is SuperBowl wins, then why didn't you just make a simple one sentence OP and state its 2-1 in favor of Eli?



I assert they are comparable, e.g. 1.5 TDs to Ints., Passer Rating quite close, etc. The statistical comparison is reasonable. HoF? I only bring it up because Favre does have similar numbers. That is all.

Regarding "animated" that is quite an overstatement. I have not been all over the place or emotional in my commentary. Commentary by others is all over the place like Eli couldn't beat Favre on Eli's best day, or no way he is a first round/ ballet HoF or awards of all types from the NFL, media and fans. Super Bowls? I quoted it initially and reiterated it with my last comment because SB wins do matter.

And I stand by my commentary that the Packers with Favre had a better program and stronger teams during his career, as evidenced by their divisional championships.

I can divorce my views of Eli's overall career and HoF candidacy from these last 7 years for obvious reasons. The team and executive management stunk during the prime of his career. Nevertheless, he has a terrific career and IMO will ultimately be a HoF.
RE: This can't be a serious comparison  
bradshaw44 : 9/20/2019 3:41 pm : link
In comment 14589323 Bockman said:
Quote:
.


Technically, all the OP did was compare them. He doesn't give an opinion one way or the other. But the handwringing sure has been interesting in both directions.
I know this isn't very analytical, but  
Dave in Hoboken : 9/20/2019 3:49 pm : link
Fuck Favre.
Nothing to compare  
KWALL2 : 9/20/2019 3:55 pm : link
Favre was much better.
1st Ballot  
Thegratefulhead : 9/20/2019 4:05 pm : link
Eli's career is going to age EXTREMELY well. Everyone is going to remember the great and forget the mediocre.
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: Geezus  
Gatorade Dunk : 9/20/2019 4:47 pm : link
In comment 14589807 Section331 said:
Quote:
In comment 14589538 Gatorade Dunk said:


Quote:



I said he wasn't the best, and probably not even top 3. And you just pointed out that he was 4th, 4th, 7th, in three significant statistical categories. I think my inclusion of the word "probably" was already giving him credit. But no, he wasn't the top QB that year, and it's not like we're splitting hairs to say that.

Was he close in the rankings? Yes. But was he close in terms of "would a reasonable and impartial football fan consider Eli the top QB in the league that year?" That would be much closer to 100% no. So in that sense - simply in the context of the argument, it's really not close.



You said "he wasn't even close" to being the best QB that year. Read your own post, I'm not making that up. And I also stand by what I said, he did all of that with one of the worst OL's in the league, the next to last rushing attack and the 27th ranked defense. Yes, you are going out of your way not to give him credit.

You want to play semantics, fine. He had a great year in 2011. A few other QBs had even better years. A couple of them were better to a degree that basically precludes Eli from the conversation, if you're being reasonable. That's not refusing to give him credit - it's being a realistic adult who can process numbers.

If you want to be a homer about it, be my guest. But Eli was not the best QB in the NFL in 2011, and even though he was close to the top in several categories, it would take a serious case of Giants' tunnel vision to anoint him the best QB in the league that year. That's what I mean by not even close.

4th in passing yards, T-6th in TDs, 8th in TD pct, T-7th in INTs (this isn't where you want to be at the top), 13th in completion percentage, 4th in Y/A, 3rd in Y/C, 5th in Y/G, 7th in passer rating, 9th in QBR.

He had an awesome year. He stood alone at the top of the NFL at the end of the season with the Lombardi in hand along with the SB MVP trophy. There is nothing bad about his season in 2011, and I'm not taking anything away from him.

But he wasn't the best. He really doesn't even make the medal stand, if you're looking purely at the stats. But even if you want to give him extra credit for the playoffs and for the 4th quarter comebacks, that maybe - MAYBE - squeaks him up to 3rd. Brees and Brady both had significantly better seasons than Eli in 2011. Stafford and Rodgers could also be reasonably ranked ahead of him that year as well.

That's not going out of my way to not give him credit. It's being realistic. I honestly don't even see how this is complicated. He simply wasn't the best QB in the NFL in 2011 by any objective measure. Period, end of story.
Sorry for not being a complete homer about it.
And the OL in 2011 wasn't that bad in pass pro  
Gatorade Dunk : 9/20/2019 4:50 pm : link
19 QBs were sacked more than Eli, and only 6 were sacked on a lower percentage of passing plays.
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: Geezus  
AndyMilligan : 9/20/2019 4:53 pm : link
In comment 14589997 Gatorade Dunk said:
Quote:
In comment 14589807 Section331 said:


Quote:


In comment 14589538 Gatorade Dunk said:


Quote:



I said he wasn't the best, and probably not even top 3. And you just pointed out that he was 4th, 4th, 7th, in three significant statistical categories. I think my inclusion of the word "probably" was already giving him credit. But no, he wasn't the top QB that year, and it's not like we're splitting hairs to say that.

Was he close in the rankings? Yes. But was he close in terms of "would a reasonable and impartial football fan consider Eli the top QB in the league that year?" That would be much closer to 100% no. So in that sense - simply in the context of the argument, it's really not close.



You said "he wasn't even close" to being the best QB that year. Read your own post, I'm not making that up. And I also stand by what I said, he did all of that with one of the worst OL's in the league, the next to last rushing attack and the 27th ranked defense. Yes, you are going out of your way not to give him credit.


You want to play semantics, fine. He had a great year in 2011. A few other QBs had even better years. A couple of them were better to a degree that basically precludes Eli from the conversation, if you're being reasonable. That's not refusing to give him credit - it's being a realistic adult who can process numbers.

If you want to be a homer about it, be my guest. But Eli was not the best QB in the NFL in 2011, and even though he was close to the top in several categories, it would take a serious case of Giants' tunnel vision to anoint him the best QB in the league that year. That's what I mean by not even close.

4th in passing yards, T-6th in TDs, 8th in TD pct, T-7th in INTs (this isn't where you want to be at the top), 13th in completion percentage, 4th in Y/A, 3rd in Y/C, 5th in Y/G, 7th in passer rating, 9th in QBR.

He had an awesome year. He stood alone at the top of the NFL at the end of the season with the Lombardi in hand along with the SB MVP trophy. There is nothing bad about his season in 2011, and I'm not taking anything away from him.

But he wasn't the best. He really doesn't even make the medal stand, if you're looking purely at the stats. But even if you want to give him extra credit for the playoffs and for the 4th quarter comebacks, that maybe - MAYBE - squeaks him up to 3rd. Brees and Brady both had significantly better seasons than Eli in 2011. Stafford and Rodgers could also be reasonably ranked ahead of him that year as well.

That's not going out of my way to not give him credit. It's being realistic. I honestly don't even see how this is complicated. He simply wasn't the best QB in the NFL in 2011 by any objective measure. Period, end of story.
Sorry for not being a complete homer about it.

you're totally right.. He was clearly and absolutely and objectively not the best QB in 2011. Several were better and Aaron Rodgers won the MVP. As I stated earlier Rodgers had a 45/6 TD/Int ratio. Do you guys know how sick that is? Manning never in his career played at that level. If you think so, fine. But it's just wrong.
The stats you put up aren't really very comparable  
Mike from Ohio : 9/20/2019 4:58 pm : link
And as mentioned you omitted some very significant facts, like 3-0 on MVPs.

If the OP was trying to show that Favre is well ahead of Manning for HoF voting, then this makes sense. But I don't think that was the intention. If it was to show that they have similar credentials, this thread was a Sean Landetta style whiff.
RE: Lot of key missing  
LAXin : 9/20/2019 5:24 pm : link
In comment 14589255 ManningLobsItBurressAlone said:
Quote:
items for Favre here...

3x NFL MVP
3x First Team All Pro
3x Second Team All Pro
11x Pro Bowl (for what that's worth)
4x Passing TD Leader
2x Passing Yards Leader


Other than Favre being 74 games over .500 in his career, and Eli being zero, this set of numbers is a key to why BF4 has a far more superior Hall of Fame credential than EM10: he was considered as top 5 among his peers, what, 8, 9 times? But for Eli, 2. At most.
Gatorade and Milligan  
Johnny5 : 9/20/2019 5:33 pm : link
It's not some far fetched Giants fan fantasy that you guys are making it out to be for that NFL MVP. I recall there were a number of articles that year that I'm sure you could still google that argued the point of him being NFL MVP, and they weren't all written by Giants fans/homers. If you are going to play PFF and look 100% at stats as the sole criteria than nobody is even in the conversation with Aaron Rodgers.

You can 100% argue that no one was more valuable to their team and taking that team to and through the playoffs and winning a Super bowl than Eli Manning. There were a number of players in the conversation that year, including Calvin Johnson and Maurice Jones Drew.

The Giants SUCKED at run blocking that whole season. We were literally ranked almost dead last in run stats. Green Bay had a very good team that year, Rodgers did not carry that team. I don't know what the heck you guys were watching that year but this is not some ridiculous notion. Eli carried the Giants that year, until JPP and a few others stepped up right before and in the playoffs on defense. He had I think five or six 4th quarter comeback wins and I'd bet his 4th quarter stats alone were better than any other QB in the running for MVP that year. And SF ABUSED our OL (and subsequently Eli) in the NFC championship game.

I don't even care if he gets into the hall of fame... lol. But it seems pretty clear who has to come on these threads and cut the guy down all the time. Just my perspective anyway.
Actually its not clear because nobody is cutting down Eli  
Jimmy Googs : 9/20/2019 5:42 pm : link
from what he achieved.

Posters are only cutting down the non-objective fandom provided by several on here that think Eli's HOF fame votes will be based solely on how Giant fans think of him...
Johnny5  
Gatorade Dunk : 9/20/2019 5:43 pm : link
Eli was very valuable that year and I do think there's a reasonable argument to be made for him as MVP, in the context of his team and what he meant to them. If I recall, however, most of the media attention to Eli as an MVP candidate that year was centered around something to the effect of "if postseason was included, would Eli have won NFL MVP for the whole year?" And I think in that sense, he might have and would have been deserving.

All I'm saying is that 2011 just happened to be a year where there were a handful of historic QB performances, and if you're talking specifically about the best QB in the NFL that year (think more like Silver Slugger in baseball vs. MVP), then Eli doesn't really belong in that conversation. I don't think that's cutting him down - at least that's not my intent.
OK Dunk  
Johnny5 : 9/20/2019 5:50 pm : link
That's fair and I can't disagree with that.
Are we saying HOF eligibility can be on two magnificent years  
xman : 9/20/2019 5:50 pm : link
and then many years of accumulating stats?

I wish Eli had a better OL for the past 6 years. Do the GB and SD and NO fans wish the same?
yea..  
AndyMilligan : 9/20/2019 5:55 pm : link
sorry I don't think there is any reasonable case that Eli could win the MVP in 2011. You want to make all kinds of excuses why Eli never played at the established level of Aaron Rodgers. There is only one explanation. Rodgers' level of play is capable of a 45/6 TD/INT ratio and Manning's isn't.

It is a strange argument to say it's not only stats and then you mention PFF. Well usually the case about PFF being overused is that they refer to exotic stats. But here we are looking only at basic stats. And basic stats says there is no comparison between these two players. It's like saying a guy who hit .350 and 50 HRs might only be better than a guy who hits .300 with 20 HRs because you are looking at stats. Well no kidding. One player is clearly superior than the other. In 2011, Aaron Rodgers was an all-time great having one of the all-time great seasons a QB has ever had. In fact ESPN wrote an article where they said that ARod season was the fifth best ever. Whereas, Eli had a very good season from a very good player. There is no case to be made, no serious one, that Eli deserved the 2011 MVP.
Jim Plunkett  
BlueinRoch : 9/20/2019 6:57 pm : link
The closest comparison I can come up with is Plunkett. They both played 16 years and both won 2 Super Bowls. Eli's stats are significantly better. Plunkett is not in the HOF.
At first I'd mistake HOF w/ elite players...  
ChaChing : 9/20/2019 7:07 pm : link
Now looking at it, to me HOF is certainly Ws, production, being 'the best' at your position if not MVP (or in the convo often enough)

But if you add those extra bits - who they beat, how they did it, the team around him in doing so, and the fact he did it 2x? Add THAT to the otherwise good but mostly quantity based stats I think he belongs. His ironman status certainly helped, but then that in and of itself is another solid plus point (not that longevity on it's own matters, but literally playing well enough & not missing games...an accomplishment, luck or not)

But I get he may never get in and understand people's apprehension...
RE: yea..  
Johnny5 : 9/20/2019 7:09 pm : link
In comment 14590049 AndyMilligan said:
Quote:
sorry I don't think there is any reasonable case that Eli could win the MVP in 2011. You want to make all kinds of excuses why Eli never played at the established level of Aaron Rodgers. There is only one explanation. Rodgers' level of play is capable of a 45/6 TD/INT ratio and Manning's isn't.

It is a strange argument to say it's not only stats and then you mention PFF. Well usually the case about PFF being overused is that they refer to exotic stats. But here we are looking only at basic stats. And basic stats says there is no comparison between these two players. It's like saying a guy who hit .350 and 50 HRs might only be better than a guy who hits .300 with 20 HRs because you are looking at stats. Well no kidding. One player is clearly superior than the other. In 2011, Aaron Rodgers was an all-time great having one of the all-time great seasons a QB has ever had. In fact ESPN wrote an article where they said that ARod season was the fifth best ever. Whereas, Eli had a very good season from a very good player. There is no case to be made, no serious one, that Eli deserved the 2011 MVP.

Ok my last post to argue this here... lol. Clearly agree to disagree.

The PFF point was their premises are always purely stat based (odd stat type or no). I never gave any excuses as to why Eli never played at Aaron Rodgers level, because frankly that is basically what I'm arguing, that he played above Rodgers level overall in 2011... just not statistically. There are other measurements for NFL MVP other than who has the highest statistical rating. If there wasn't you would not be able to determine between 2 different positions for that particular title.

And again I'd love for someone to pull up the stats for 4th quarter play for QBs in 2011.... lol.

RE: 1st Ballot  
Junior22 : 9/20/2019 9:57 pm : link
In comment 14589940 Thegratefulhead said:
Quote:
Eli's career is going to age EXTREMELY well. Everyone is going to remember the great and forget the mediocre.


Only BBI eli apologists forget the 90% of career where he was thought of as an above average qb
RE: RE: yea..  
bw in dc : 9/20/2019 10:05 pm : link
In comment 14590109 Johnny5 said:
Quote:


And again I'd love for someone to pull up the stats for 4th quarter play for QBs in 2011.... lol.


Ask you shall receive...

Eli: 67% CR%, 9 YPA, 18TDs/6INTs, 111 Passer Rating
ARod: 68% CR%, 8.7 YPA, 11TDs/5INTs, 108 Passer Rating
RE: The stats you put up aren't really very comparable  
bradshaw44 : 9/20/2019 10:44 pm : link
In comment 14590012 Mike from Ohio said:
Quote:
And as mentioned you omitted some very significant facts, like 3-0 on MVPs.

If the OP was trying to show that Favre is well ahead of Manning for HoF voting, then this makes sense. But I don't think that was the intention. If it was to show that they have similar credentials, this thread was a Sean Landetta style whiff.


If the OP posted those stats to say itís close, I think he didnít read the stats. Even omitting the league MVPs you can see all the numbers skew toward Favre and it isnít really close. Not too mention Favre played well for two more teams AFTER leaving the Packers. And he got to the NFCC again with Minny and damn near won. And that run to the NFCC was all Favre. Minny did nothing in the years of AP and no viable QB.

I love Eli and donít think this comp was necessary since he will get in eventually. But to compare the two is silly. Favre was the better QB in general.
RE: RE: RE: yea..  
Johnny5 : 9/21/2019 9:26 am : link
In comment 14590235 bw in dc said:
Quote:
In comment 14590109 Johnny5 said:


Quote:




And again I'd love for someone to pull up the stats for 4th quarter play for QBs in 2011.... lol.




Ask you shall receive...

Eli: 67% CR%, 9 YPA, 18TDs/6INTs, 111 Passer Rating
ARod: 68% CR%, 8.7 YPA, 11TDs/5INTs, 108 Passer Rating

Ha good job bw. It's actually closer than I thought it would be... lol
Eli a very good  
bc4life : 9/21/2019 9:47 am : link
better than average, but not a great QB - imo. How about talking about his football IQ, ability to read defenses? That's not going to show up on a stat sheet but one of things where Eli ranks near the top in the league. And if you can't do that, you cannot play QB is this league.
have to look at QB in regards to supporting cast  
bc4life : 9/21/2019 9:49 am : link
Eli
s OLine deteriorated. Except for Burress and OBJ, he's never had grea receivers or veen receivers an opposing defense had to game plan for, same is even more true re: running backs. Tiki and now Barkley - nobody close to great between them.
There's no comparison.  
eclipz928 : 9/21/2019 10:13 am : link
Forget about stats, anyone who has watched both of these players in their prime understands why Favre was a first ballot HOFer and why Eli is borderline.
Eli is a guaranteed Hall of Famer  
spike : 9/21/2019 2:40 pm : link
Not to forget his "NFL Man of the Year" Award, his good guy image, longevity, the two mythical playoff runs/Super Bowl performances
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