I believe this is a relevant comparison. FWIW.
Brett Favre
Games:302
Record:186-112
TD:508
Int: 336
Yards: 71838
Rate:86.0
Fumbles/Lost: 166/73
Comp Pct: 62.0
Years:20
Super Bowl Victories: XXXI
NFC Champion: 2 - 1996, 1997
NFC North Champion: 7 - 1995-1997, 2002-2004, 2007
Eli Manning
Games:234
Record: 116-116
TD:362
Int: 241
Yards: 56537
Rate:84.1
Fumbles/Lost: 124/56
Comp Pct: 60.3
Years: 16
Super Bowl Victories: 2
NFC Champion: 2 - 2007, 2011
NFC East Champion: 3 - 2005, 2008, 2011
One is a no doubt HoF'er. The other is more borderline.
I think if you look at the first half of each careers maybe a little.
Favre had much better support overall imo for his career. I think the biggest difference was that both took risks and made mind-boggling mistakes but Eli really minimized that come playoff time while Favre did not.
But just as a pure player Favre was better.
Would you EVER argue that Eli was the best QB in the league?
That isnt a shot at Eli - but if you want to be taken seriously regarding his HoF candidacy you need to make realistic arguments.
Would you EVER argue that Eli was the best QB in the league?
That isnt a shot at Eli - but if you want to be taken seriously regarding his HoF candidacy you need to make realistic arguments.
Being honest, Eli was in the top-5 of NFL QBs for only a couple of years, at most. It is embarrassing to compare Eli to Favre. It's just homerism.
oh yeaaa.. thaaat minor detail...
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There were a few years where Farve was undeniably the best QB in the league and several where he was in the conversation.
Would you EVER argue that Eli was the best QB in the league?
That isnt a shot at Eli - but if you want to be taken seriously regarding his HoF candidacy you need to make realistic arguments.
Being honest, Eli was in the top-5 of NFL QBs for only a couple of years, at most. It is embarrassing to compare Eli to Favre. It's just homerism.
Correct.
Would you EVER argue that Eli was the best QB in the league?
That isnt a shot at Eli - but if you want to be taken seriously regarding his HoF candidacy you need to make realistic arguments.
Yes, in 2011.
Favre’s arm, mobility, improvisation, and ability to lift the play of others are all plus skills.
Physically, Eli isn’t in the same universe as Favre.
They do have this one key trait - they were very reckless decision makers.
LOL
3x NFL MVP
3x First Team All Pro
3x Second Team All Pro
11x Pro Bowl (for what that's worth)
4x Passing TD Leader
2x Passing Yards Leader
Pass Rating similar
Completion % similar
Fumbles? Lost? Gripe all you want about Eli's fumbles but Favre was no better.
IMHO, the big difference is the team around these two QBs. And that is illustrated by the number of divisional championships. Eli did not have the quality teams around him consistently that Favre had in the 90s and 00s. It is a direct cause-effect for his 50/50 record. How many times on this forum have we heard that the Giants wasted the prime of Eli's career? Well, what the hell does that mean? What does it translate to?
One is a no doubt HoF'er. The other is more borderline.
WTF are you talking about? Favre was a first ballot HOF'er...
Of course, please keep in mind Rodgers hasn't thrown for the magical 50,000 yard mark as of yet so this is all conjecture...
:-)
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how?
One is a no doubt HoF'er. The other is more borderline.
WTF are you talking about? Favre was a first ballot HOF'er...
then we agree. wtf are you wtf-ing about?
Pass Rating similar
Completion % similar
Fumbles? Lost? Gripe all you want about Eli's fumbles but Favre was no better.
IMHO, the big difference is the team around these two QBs. And that is illustrated by the number of divisional championships. Eli did not have the quality teams around him consistently that Favre had in the 90s and 00s. It is a direct cause-effect for his 50/50 record. How many times on this forum have we heard that the Giants wasted the prime of Eli's career? Well, what the hell does that mean? What does it translate to?
oh cmon please..
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There were a few years where Farve was undeniably the best QB in the league and several where he was in the conversation.
Would you EVER argue that Eli was the best QB in the league?
That isnt a shot at Eli - but if you want to be taken seriously regarding his HoF candidacy you need to make realistic arguments.
Yes, in 2011.
Just because Eli had his best year in 2011 doesn't make him the best QB in the league that season. He wasn't even really top 3 that year.
Link - ( New Window )
Pass Rating similar
Completion % similar
Fumbles? Lost? Gripe all you want about Eli's fumbles but Favre was no better.
IMHO, the big difference is the team around these two QBs. And that is illustrated by the number of divisional championships. Eli did not have the quality teams around him consistently that Favre had in the 90s and 00s. It is a direct cause-effect for his 50/50 record. How many times on this forum have we heard that the Giants wasted the prime of Eli's career? Well, what the hell does that mean? What does it translate to?
Eli on his best day cannot touch Favre. Embarrassing that we have delusional fana
Guys, the reality is that Eli had two amazing playoff runs.... period. Outside of that, the only thing you can point to from a statistical standpoint is his starting streak.
The most important statistic from the OP is the win-loss column. Not even close.
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In comment 14589237 Capt. Don said:
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There were a few years where Farve was undeniably the best QB in the league and several where he was in the conversation.
Would you EVER argue that Eli was the best QB in the league?
That isnt a shot at Eli - but if you want to be taken seriously regarding his HoF candidacy you need to make realistic arguments.
Yes, in 2011.
Just because Eli had his best year in 2011 doesn't make him the best QB in the league that season. He wasn't even really top 3 that year. Link - ( New Window )
Yes! Certainly not the best. Definitely not top-3. Probably not even top-5. We're talking about a season in which Tom Brady and Brees both went 5000+ yards and Rodgers had a monster TD/INT rate 45/6.
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In comment 14589252 Johnny5 said:
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In comment 14589237 Capt. Don said:
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There were a few years where Farve was undeniably the best QB in the league and several where he was in the conversation.
Would you EVER argue that Eli was the best QB in the league?
That isnt a shot at Eli - but if you want to be taken seriously regarding his HoF candidacy you need to make realistic arguments.
Yes, in 2011.
Just because Eli had his best year in 2011 doesn't make him the best QB in the league that season. He wasn't even really top 3 that year. Link - ( New Window )
Yes! Certainly not the best. Definitely not top-3. Probably not even top-5. We're talking about a season in which Tom Brady and Brees both went 5000+ yards and Rodgers had a monster TD/INT rate 45/6.
Just relying on stats is not the best of measure imo. So many do it but it really does not paint the complete picture.
Of course, please keep in mind Rodgers hasn't thrown for the magical 50,000 yard mark as of yet so this is all conjecture...
:-)
You know, you really are an insufferable douchebag.
No he's not. I love Eli but pretending he's something that he's not doesn't do it for me. I bet he makes the Hall eventually, but it could be a close call.
Pass Rating similar
Completion % similar
Fumbles? Lost? Gripe all you want about Eli's fumbles but Favre was no better.
IMHO, the big difference is the team around these two QBs.
It isn't.
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maybe his accomplishments would have even been better.
Of course, please keep in mind Rodgers hasn't thrown for the magical 50,000 yard mark as of yet so this is all conjecture...
:-)
You know, you really are an insufferable douchebag.
I put the smiley...
18-1
He is a Mannng
2 MVP Super Bowl
2 plays in Super Bowl that are considered "best" ever
Does not have a losing record.
Winning playoff record
And no, he's not better than Favre.
Warner's career was also unusual. And I think is HoF consideration was also very debatable. He had some great playoff runs. Had a few great regular seasons. But he has a huge doughnut hole in the middle of his career. Not the same career arc as Eli's but a very strange journey...
Peak Favre was a dominant player. Peak playoff Eli is up there with anyone i've seen in those situations, so he's played like it before, but never over a several season timespan.
Warner's career was also unusual. And I think is HoF consideration was also very debatable. He had some great playoff runs. Had a few great regular seasons. But he has a huge doughnut hole in the middle of his career. Not the same career arc as Eli's but a very strange journey...
Right? Eli is the only guy in sports I can remember that gets shit on for being clutch. Probably because his play outside the 4th and playoffs is just above mediocre.
-first few years a HOF left tackle, the best weapons in the game. Trent Green was ready to rock and roll in that offense but blew out his knee. Then Warner's got hurt some, his team around him got worse and so did his performance.
-Goes to Arizona, Head Coach with great offensive system, very good OL and Fitzgerald and Boldin and he takes off again.
Favre did have excellent talent just about every season. Even with the Jets and Vikings.
You could do the same drill with many other QB's and coaches as well but for some reason for Eli this is mostly ignored by many.
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there is a comp for Eli. His career is that unusual.
Warner's career was also unusual. And I think is HoF consideration was also very debatable. He had some great playoff runs. Had a few great regular seasons. But he has a huge doughnut hole in the middle of his career. Not the same career arc as Eli's but a very strange journey...
Right? Eli is the only guy in sports I can remember that gets shit on for being clutch. Probably because his play outside the 4th and playoffs is just above mediocre.
Eli came up big in two seasons. No one is taking that away from him. Want to call it being clutch? Okay, in those spots he did.
But he also came up short in other situations. So he wasn't clutch then. Or am I wrong?
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In comment 14589273 Gatorade Dunk said:
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In comment 14589252 Johnny5 said:
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In comment 14589237 Capt. Don said:
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There were a few years where Farve was undeniably the best QB in the league and several where he was in the conversation.
Would you EVER argue that Eli was the best QB in the league?
That isnt a shot at Eli - but if you want to be taken seriously regarding his HoF candidacy you need to make realistic arguments.
Yes, in 2011.
Just because Eli had his best year in 2011 doesn't make him the best QB in the league that season. He wasn't even really top 3 that year. Link - ( New Window )
Yes! Certainly not the best. Definitely not top-3. Probably not even top-5. We're talking about a season in which Tom Brady and Brees both went 5000+ yards and Rodgers had a monster TD/INT rate 45/6.
Just relying on stats is not the best of measure imo. So many do it but it really does not paint the complete picture.
Exactly. He carried that team down the stretch and had one of the best playoff runs of any QB I have ever seen, ending with a Super Bowl MVP.
Favre was just a kid having fun like on the playground when he made boneheaded mistakes.
Eli when he did it was because he was overrated.
I'm sorry but I can't help myself. Eli showed in 2 playoffs runs out of 16 years he can be this "cold blooded assassin"? How many times did we need him to come up big in the regular season to get a crack at the playoffs? How many times did our offense completely no show? How many times did he throw a game ending pick? Were those not big moments?
18-1 That's not Eli's record.
He is a Mannng No offense, but this is the dumbest reason on your list and that includes the ones that aren't accurate.
2 MVP Super Bowl
2 plays in Super Bowl that are considered "best" ever
Does not have a losing record. Wow, talk about faint praise. There's no way that "does not have a losing record" is a winning bulletpoint on a HOF resume.
Winning playoff record
Comments embedded. Honestly, I can't tell if you're sincerely trying to make the case for Eli to be a HOFer. I think he is, although not a first-ballot HOFer, but your list is the opposite of compelling.
Looks like you're new, so hopefully this doesn't come across the wrong way, but pick a new handle. There's a longstanding member here with almost the same name.
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In comment 14589219 AndyMilligan said:
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how?
One is a no doubt HoF'er. The other is more borderline.
WTF are you talking about? Favre was a first ballot HOF'er...
then we agree. wtf are you wtf-ing about?
It was sarcasm...
You might be confusing people pointing out that you're fucking delusional for claiming Eli was the best QB in the NFL in 2011 with disrespect for Eli. It wasn't. It was disrespect for fiction.
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The disrespect that Eli gets on this site from actual Giants fans is fucking absurd.
You might be confusing people pointing out that you're fucking delusional for claiming Eli was the best QB in the NFL in 2011 with disrespect for Eli. It wasn't. It was disrespect for fiction.
yes!
Would you EVER argue that Eli was the best QB in the league?
That isnt a shot at Eli - but if you want to be taken seriously regarding his HoF candidacy you need to make realistic arguments.
This. You only hurt Eli with ridiculous arguments like this.
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The disrespect that Eli gets on this site from actual Giants fans is fucking absurd.
You might be confusing people pointing out that you're fucking delusional for claiming Eli was the best QB in the NFL in 2011 with disrespect for Eli. It wasn't. It was disrespect for fiction.
lol whatever dude.
Had the Giants (as a TEAM) been more consistent over the course of the season, Manning would have had more looks for MVP. But who knows?
It was a regular season stats fight between Rodgers and Brees who were sitting home eating popcorn while Manning was winning his second Super Bowl ring. Oh and a second SB MVP trophy. And who beat the regular season MVP twice that season (his only 2 losses that year), including sending them home to their couches for the season... lol
Say what you want about Eli, and you are one of the ones who never gives the guy any credit for whatever dumb reason, but Eli carried the team that year. Statistically he had a monster season but straight Stats wise yeah not the league MVP. Stats don't tell the whole story. He was the best QB in the league that year, especially down the stretch.
So in order to show respect we must lie about the type of player Eli is and was?
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The disrespect that Eli gets on this site from actual Giants fans is fucking absurd.
So in order to show respect we must lie about the type of player Eli is and was?
WTF are you actually talking about?
We are just stating its folly to use Brett Favre (or Aaron Rodgers by the way as someone was ridiculously trying yesterday) as the benchmark to determine Eli's chances...
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In comment 14589432 Johnny5 said:
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The disrespect that Eli gets on this site from actual Giants fans is fucking absurd.
You might be confusing people pointing out that you're fucking delusional for claiming Eli was the best QB in the NFL in 2011 with disrespect for Eli. It wasn't. It was disrespect for fiction.
lol whatever dude.
Had the Giants (as a TEAM) been more consistent over the course of the season, Manning would have had more looks for MVP. But who knows?
It was a regular season stats fight between Rodgers and Brees who were sitting home eating popcorn while Manning was winning his second Super Bowl ring. Oh and a second SB MVP trophy. And who beat the regular season MVP twice that season (his only 2 losses that year), including sending them home to their couches for the season... lol
Say what you want about Eli, and you are one of the ones who never gives the guy any credit for whatever dumb reason, but Eli carried the team that year. Statistically he had a monster season but straight Stats wise yeah not the league MVP. Stats don't tell the whole story. He was the best QB in the league that year, especially down the stretch.
He won the Super Bowl. He won the SB MVP. There's no denying that he had a tremendous season. But he wasn't even close to the best QB in the league that year.
And that's fine if you think I never give the guy any credit, but I actually do. I just don't bruise my knees and chap my lips in the process.
He won the Super Bowl. He won the SB MVP. There's no denying that he had a tremendous season. But he wasn't even close to the best QB in the league that year.
And that's fine if you think I never give the guy any credit, but I actually do. I just don't bruise my knees and chap my lips in the process.
It's fine to say he wasn't the best QB in the league that year, but not even close? 4th in yards, 4th in YPA, 7th in TD passes. All of that with a deteriorating OL, the 31st ranked rushing attack, and the 27th ranked defense.
And you wonder why people don't think you give him any credit?
I don't think that was the OP's point, which he could have made clearer. I think what he is saying is that if Favre is a no-doubt, 1st ballot HOF'er, how can Eli not get in.
Farve is an all time great.
Eli is a franchise QB who has an accomplished resume which will get him into the HOF. Players like that exist in the HOF today.
Bart Starr, QB of the team of the 60s.
Terry Bradshaw, QB of the team of the 70s.
Joe Montana, QB of the team of the 80s.
Tom Brady, QB of the team of the 00s and 10s.
Eli Manning, 6 playoff appearances in 16 years. 2 SBs and four one and done.
Which one doesn't fit?
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He won the Super Bowl. He won the SB MVP. There's no denying that he had a tremendous season. But he wasn't even close to the best QB in the league that year.
And that's fine if you think I never give the guy any credit, but I actually do. I just don't bruise my knees and chap my lips in the process.
It's fine to say he wasn't the best QB in the league that year, but not even close? 4th in yards, 4th in YPA, 7th in TD passes. All of that with a deteriorating OL, the 31st ranked rushing attack, and the 27th ranked defense.
And you wonder why people don't think you give him any credit?
I said he wasn't the best, and probably not even top 3. And you just pointed out that he was 4th, 4th, 7th, in three significant statistical categories. I think my inclusion of the word "probably" was already giving him credit. But no, he wasn't the top QB that year, and it's not like we're splitting hairs to say that.
Was he close in the rankings? Yes. But was he close in terms of "would a reasonable and impartial football fan consider Eli the top QB in the league that year?" That would be much closer to 100% no. So in that sense - simply in the context of the argument, it's really not close.
I think Eli makes it, but if you guys believe he's a sure fire first ballot entry, I think you might be disappointed. Some of that is on Eli's inconsistency, and the rest is on the voters.
We are just stating its folly to use Brett Favre (or Aaron Rodgers by the way as someone was ridiculously trying yesterday) as the benchmark to determine Eli's chances...
Well, maybe YOU are stating that. And I don't disagree. Different animals. Personally I think Eli will be first ballot.
The one thing I would say is that their QB Ratings are similar, which is the big knock in showing Eli was an average QB. But, both QBs--Favre and Eli--played in a risky offense and were gunslingers and that is the reason why Eli's rating is lower and why when people evaluate at him they don't really get how good he was earlier in his career.
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We are just stating its folly to use Brett Favre (or Aaron Rodgers by the way as someone was ridiculously trying yesterday) as the benchmark to determine Eli's chances...
Well, maybe YOU are stating that. And I don't disagree. Different animals. Personally I think Eli will be first ballot.
It depends who else is up for enshrinement that year. With Roethlisberger and Brees both injured, and Brady at 42 years old, what if all three of them, plus Eli, retire at the end of this season? The odds of four QBs from the same era going in at the same time are pretty slim, IMO, and I think in this hypothetical, Eli would be no higher than third on the list, most likely fourth. If that's how it plays out, Eli is very unlikely to be a first ballot HOFer.
But if none of them except for Eli retire this year, that helps his odds of being first ballot tremendously, because he'll be up for consideration first among his peers, and will have the advantage of being among the first of the pass happy generation to be considered - his stats look better against historical comparisons than against his current peers in the same era, and that will only get magnified in the years between his retirement and his first appearance on the ballot, IMO.
Bottom line (for me), is that Eli is no sure thing to be a first ballot HOFer regardless, because there are more blemishes on his overall resume than many Giants fans choose to acknowledge (or at least there are blemishes that HOF voters just won't contextualize the way that fans do). There's a chance that he goes in first ballot, I don't think it's ridiculous to suggest it, but it's enough of a borderline case that things like what other QBs retire the same year as him will matter a lot.
I said he wasn't the best, and probably not even top 3. And you just pointed out that he was 4th, 4th, 7th, in three significant statistical categories. I think my inclusion of the word "probably" was already giving him credit. But no, he wasn't the top QB that year, and it's not like we're splitting hairs to say that.
Was he close in the rankings? Yes. But was he close in terms of "would a reasonable and impartial football fan consider Eli the top QB in the league that year?" That would be much closer to 100% no. So in that sense - simply in the context of the argument, it's really not close.
You said "he wasn't even close" to being the best QB that year. Read your own post, I'm not making that up. And I also stand by what I said, he did all of that with one of the worst OL's in the league, the next to last rushing attack and the 27th ranked defense. Yes, you are going out of your way not to give him credit.
We are just stating its folly to use Brett Favre (or Aaron Rodgers by the way as someone was ridiculously trying yesterday) as the benchmark to determine Eli's chances...
The purpose of the statistical comparison was NOT that Eli is a first ballet HoF. It is not even that he necessarily should be a HoF. What it represents in NUMBERS that he compares quite well, statistically. PERIOD. Go deny that!
I could care less how many after season accolades, beauty pageant awards from media and fans that Favre got. I did not even mention Eli's MVPs as well. These are popularity contests. B-t-W, when did any player or media personality ever complain about these awards given to any of the athletes? I can't recall. As a Giant fan, all I want is a Super Bowl and Eli led us to two of them. And that is one more than Favre. And he beat Favre, head-to-head in the ice bowl NFC Championship in 2007.
What matters is what happened on the field not the hype of "gunslinger" BS. Favre had a lot of warts too.
For the record, I do believe Eli will ultimately get into the HoF.
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It isn't disrespect for Eli. We are all well-aware of his regular season performances and post-season achievements in 2007 and 2011 which probably are enough to get him into the HOF.
We are just stating its folly to use Brett Favre (or Aaron Rodgers by the way as someone was ridiculously trying yesterday) as the benchmark to determine Eli's chances...
The purpose of the statistical comparison was NOT that Eli is a first ballet HoF. It is not even that he necessarily should be a HoF. What it represents in NUMBERS that he compares quite well, statistically. PERIOD. Go deny that!
I could care less how many after season accolades, beauty pageant awards from media and fans that Favre got. I did not even mention Eli's MVPs as well. These are popularity contests. B-t-W, when did any player or media personality ever complain about these awards given to any of the athletes? I can't recall. As a Giant fan, all I want is a Super Bowl and Eli led us to two of them. And that is one more than Favre. And he beat Favre, head-to-head in the ice bowl NFC Championship in 2007.
What matters is what happened on the field not the hype of "gunslinger" BS. Favre had a lot of warts too.
For the record, I do believe Eli will ultimately get into the HoF.
You're all over the board on this and clearly a bit too animated. But I will give it a go...
I have never mentioned first vs non first ballot...I think Eli gets in. A bunch of you all will have a meltdown if he doesnt get in Yr1, but that's obvious.
The title of your OP is Favre vs Manning and you lay out stats but they really aren't comparable except maybe the interceptions. Favre was a much more frequent winner.
You don't mention league MVPs because Favre won a few and Eli didnt.
If the only thing that matters to you is SuperBowl wins, then why didn't you just make a simple one sentence OP and state its 2-1 in favor of Eli?
Is what it is. I just don't think he's ever going to get in.
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In comment 14589498 Jimmy Googs said:
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It isn't disrespect for Eli. We are all well-aware of his regular season performances and post-season achievements in 2007 and 2011 which probably are enough to get him into the HOF.
We are just stating its folly to use Brett Favre (or Aaron Rodgers by the way as someone was ridiculously trying yesterday) as the benchmark to determine Eli's chances...
The purpose of the statistical comparison was NOT that Eli is a first ballet HoF. It is not even that he necessarily should be a HoF. What it represents in NUMBERS that he compares quite well, statistically. PERIOD. Go deny that!
I could care less how many after season accolades, beauty pageant awards from media and fans that Favre got. I did not even mention Eli's MVPs as well. These are popularity contests. B-t-W, when did any player or media personality ever complain about these awards given to any of the athletes? I can't recall. As a Giant fan, all I want is a Super Bowl and Eli led us to two of them. And that is one more than Favre. And he beat Favre, head-to-head in the ice bowl NFC Championship in 2007.
What matters is what happened on the field not the hype of "gunslinger" BS. Favre had a lot of warts too.
For the record, I do believe Eli will ultimately get into the HoF.
You're all over the board on this and clearly a bit too animated. But I will give it a go...
I have never mentioned first vs non first ballot...I think Eli gets in. A bunch of you all will have a meltdown if he doesnt get in Yr1, but that's obvious.
The title of your OP is Favre vs Manning and you lay out stats but they really aren't comparable except maybe the interceptions. Favre was a much more frequent winner.
You don't mention league MVPs because Favre won a few and Eli didnt.
If the only thing that matters to you is SuperBowl wins, then why didn't you just make a simple one sentence OP and state its 2-1 in favor of Eli?
I assert they are comparable, e.g. 1.5 TDs to Ints., Passer Rating quite close, etc. The statistical comparison is reasonable. HoF? I only bring it up because Favre does have similar numbers. That is all.
Regarding "animated" that is quite an overstatement. I have not been all over the place or emotional in my commentary. Commentary by others is all over the place like Eli couldn't beat Favre on Eli's best day, or no way he is a first round/ ballet HoF or awards of all types from the NFL, media and fans. Super Bowls? I quoted it initially and reiterated it with my last comment because SB wins do matter.
And I stand by my commentary that the Packers with Favre had a better program and stronger teams during his career, as evidenced by their divisional championships.
I can divorce my views of Eli's overall career and HoF candidacy from these last 7 years for obvious reasons. The team and executive management stunk during the prime of his career. Nevertheless, he has a terrific career and IMO will ultimately be a HoF.
Technically, all the OP did was compare them. He doesn't give an opinion one way or the other. But the handwringing sure has been interesting in both directions.
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I said he wasn't the best, and probably not even top 3. And you just pointed out that he was 4th, 4th, 7th, in three significant statistical categories. I think my inclusion of the word "probably" was already giving him credit. But no, he wasn't the top QB that year, and it's not like we're splitting hairs to say that.
Was he close in the rankings? Yes. But was he close in terms of "would a reasonable and impartial football fan consider Eli the top QB in the league that year?" That would be much closer to 100% no. So in that sense - simply in the context of the argument, it's really not close.
You said "he wasn't even close" to being the best QB that year. Read your own post, I'm not making that up. And I also stand by what I said, he did all of that with one of the worst OL's in the league, the next to last rushing attack and the 27th ranked defense. Yes, you are going out of your way not to give him credit.
You want to play semantics, fine. He had a great year in 2011. A few other QBs had even better years. A couple of them were better to a degree that basically precludes Eli from the conversation, if you're being reasonable. That's not refusing to give him credit - it's being a realistic adult who can process numbers.
If you want to be a homer about it, be my guest. But Eli was not the best QB in the NFL in 2011, and even though he was close to the top in several categories, it would take a serious case of Giants' tunnel vision to anoint him the best QB in the league that year. That's what I mean by not even close.
4th in passing yards, T-6th in TDs, 8th in TD pct, T-7th in INTs (this isn't where you want to be at the top), 13th in completion percentage, 4th in Y/A, 3rd in Y/C, 5th in Y/G, 7th in passer rating, 9th in QBR.
He had an awesome year. He stood alone at the top of the NFL at the end of the season with the Lombardi in hand along with the SB MVP trophy. There is nothing bad about his season in 2011, and I'm not taking anything away from him.
But he wasn't the best. He really doesn't even make the medal stand, if you're looking purely at the stats. But even if you want to give him extra credit for the playoffs and for the 4th quarter comebacks, that maybe - MAYBE - squeaks him up to 3rd. Brees and Brady both had significantly better seasons than Eli in 2011. Stafford and Rodgers could also be reasonably ranked ahead of him that year as well.
That's not going out of my way to not give him credit. It's being realistic. I honestly don't even see how this is complicated. He simply wasn't the best QB in the NFL in 2011 by any objective measure. Period, end of story.
Sorry for not being a complete homer about it.
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In comment 14589538 Gatorade Dunk said:
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I said he wasn't the best, and probably not even top 3. And you just pointed out that he was 4th, 4th, 7th, in three significant statistical categories. I think my inclusion of the word "probably" was already giving him credit. But no, he wasn't the top QB that year, and it's not like we're splitting hairs to say that.
Was he close in the rankings? Yes. But was he close in terms of "would a reasonable and impartial football fan consider Eli the top QB in the league that year?" That would be much closer to 100% no. So in that sense - simply in the context of the argument, it's really not close.
You said "he wasn't even close" to being the best QB that year. Read your own post, I'm not making that up. And I also stand by what I said, he did all of that with one of the worst OL's in the league, the next to last rushing attack and the 27th ranked defense. Yes, you are going out of your way not to give him credit.
You want to play semantics, fine. He had a great year in 2011. A few other QBs had even better years. A couple of them were better to a degree that basically precludes Eli from the conversation, if you're being reasonable. That's not refusing to give him credit - it's being a realistic adult who can process numbers.
If you want to be a homer about it, be my guest. But Eli was not the best QB in the NFL in 2011, and even though he was close to the top in several categories, it would take a serious case of Giants' tunnel vision to anoint him the best QB in the league that year. That's what I mean by not even close.
4th in passing yards, T-6th in TDs, 8th in TD pct, T-7th in INTs (this isn't where you want to be at the top), 13th in completion percentage, 4th in Y/A, 3rd in Y/C, 5th in Y/G, 7th in passer rating, 9th in QBR.
He had an awesome year. He stood alone at the top of the NFL at the end of the season with the Lombardi in hand along with the SB MVP trophy. There is nothing bad about his season in 2011, and I'm not taking anything away from him.
But he wasn't the best. He really doesn't even make the medal stand, if you're looking purely at the stats. But even if you want to give him extra credit for the playoffs and for the 4th quarter comebacks, that maybe - MAYBE - squeaks him up to 3rd. Brees and Brady both had significantly better seasons than Eli in 2011. Stafford and Rodgers could also be reasonably ranked ahead of him that year as well.
That's not going out of my way to not give him credit. It's being realistic. I honestly don't even see how this is complicated. He simply wasn't the best QB in the NFL in 2011 by any objective measure. Period, end of story.
Sorry for not being a complete homer about it.
you're totally right.. He was clearly and absolutely and objectively not the best QB in 2011. Several were better and Aaron Rodgers won the MVP. As I stated earlier Rodgers had a 45/6 TD/Int ratio. Do you guys know how sick that is? Manning never in his career played at that level. If you think so, fine. But it's just wrong.
If the OP was trying to show that Favre is well ahead of Manning for HoF voting, then this makes sense. But I don't think that was the intention. If it was to show that they have similar credentials, this thread was a Sean Landetta style whiff.
3x NFL MVP
3x First Team All Pro
3x Second Team All Pro
11x Pro Bowl (for what that's worth)
4x Passing TD Leader
2x Passing Yards Leader
Other than Favre being 74 games over .500 in his career, and Eli being zero, this set of numbers is a key to why BF4 has a far more superior Hall of Fame credential than EM10: he was considered as top 5 among his peers, what, 8, 9 times? But for Eli, 2. At most.
You can 100% argue that no one was more valuable to their team and taking that team to and through the playoffs and winning a Super bowl than Eli Manning. There were a number of players in the conversation that year, including Calvin Johnson and Maurice Jones Drew.
The Giants SUCKED at run blocking that whole season. We were literally ranked almost dead last in run stats. Green Bay had a very good team that year, Rodgers did not carry that team. I don't know what the heck you guys were watching that year but this is not some ridiculous notion. Eli carried the Giants that year, until JPP and a few others stepped up right before and in the playoffs on defense. He had I think five or six 4th quarter comeback wins and I'd bet his 4th quarter stats alone were better than any other QB in the running for MVP that year. And SF ABUSED our OL (and subsequently Eli) in the NFC championship game.
I don't even care if he gets into the hall of fame... lol. But it seems pretty clear who has to come on these threads and cut the guy down all the time. Just my perspective anyway.
Posters are only cutting down the non-objective fandom provided by several on here that think Eli's HOF fame votes will be based solely on how Giant fans think of him...
All I'm saying is that 2011 just happened to be a year where there were a handful of historic QB performances, and if you're talking specifically about the best QB in the NFL that year (think more like Silver Slugger in baseball vs. MVP), then Eli doesn't really belong in that conversation. I don't think that's cutting him down - at least that's not my intent.
I wish Eli had a better OL for the past 6 years. Do the GB and SD and NO fans wish the same?
It is a strange argument to say it's not only stats and then you mention PFF. Well usually the case about PFF being overused is that they refer to exotic stats. But here we are looking only at basic stats. And basic stats says there is no comparison between these two players. It's like saying a guy who hit .350 and 50 HRs might only be better than a guy who hits .300 with 20 HRs because you are looking at stats. Well no kidding. One player is clearly superior than the other. In 2011, Aaron Rodgers was an all-time great having one of the all-time great seasons a QB has ever had. In fact ESPN wrote an article where they said that ARod season was the fifth best ever. Whereas, Eli had a very good season from a very good player. There is no case to be made, no serious one, that Eli deserved the 2011 MVP.
But if you add those extra bits - who they beat, how they did it, the team around him in doing so, and the fact he did it 2x? Add THAT to the otherwise good but mostly quantity based stats I think he belongs. His ironman status certainly helped, but then that in and of itself is another solid plus point (not that longevity on it's own matters, but literally playing well enough & not missing games...an accomplishment, luck or not)
But I get he may never get in and understand people's apprehension...
It is a strange argument to say it's not only stats and then you mention PFF. Well usually the case about PFF being overused is that they refer to exotic stats. But here we are looking only at basic stats. And basic stats says there is no comparison between these two players. It's like saying a guy who hit .350 and 50 HRs might only be better than a guy who hits .300 with 20 HRs because you are looking at stats. Well no kidding. One player is clearly superior than the other. In 2011, Aaron Rodgers was an all-time great having one of the all-time great seasons a QB has ever had. In fact ESPN wrote an article where they said that ARod season was the fifth best ever. Whereas, Eli had a very good season from a very good player. There is no case to be made, no serious one, that Eli deserved the 2011 MVP.
Ok my last post to argue this here... lol. Clearly agree to disagree.
The PFF point was their premises are always purely stat based (odd stat type or no). I never gave any excuses as to why Eli never played at Aaron Rodgers level, because frankly that is basically what I'm arguing, that he played above Rodgers level overall in 2011... just not statistically. There are other measurements for NFL MVP other than who has the highest statistical rating. If there wasn't you would not be able to determine between 2 different positions for that particular title.
And again I'd love for someone to pull up the stats for 4th quarter play for QBs in 2011.... lol.
Only BBI eli apologists forget the 90% of career where he was thought of as an above average qb
And again I'd love for someone to pull up the stats for 4th quarter play for QBs in 2011.... lol.
Ask you shall receive...
Eli: 67% CR%, 9 YPA, 18TDs/6INTs, 111 Passer Rating
ARod: 68% CR%, 8.7 YPA, 11TDs/5INTs, 108 Passer Rating
If the OP was trying to show that Favre is well ahead of Manning for HoF voting, then this makes sense. But I don't think that was the intention. If it was to show that they have similar credentials, this thread was a Sean Landetta style whiff.
If the OP posted those stats to say it’s close, I think he didn’t read the stats. Even omitting the league MVPs you can see all the numbers skew toward Favre and it isn’t really close. Not too mention Favre played well for two more teams AFTER leaving the Packers. And he got to the NFCC again with Minny and damn near won. And that run to the NFCC was all Favre. Minny did nothing in the years of AP and no viable QB.
I love Eli and don’t think this comp was necessary since he will get in eventually. But to compare the two is silly. Favre was the better QB in general.
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And again I'd love for someone to pull up the stats for 4th quarter play for QBs in 2011.... lol.
Ask you shall receive...
Eli: 67% CR%, 9 YPA, 18TDs/6INTs, 111 Passer Rating
ARod: 68% CR%, 8.7 YPA, 11TDs/5INTs, 108 Passer Rating
Ha good job bw. It's actually closer than I thought it would be... lol
s OLine deteriorated. Except for Burress and OBJ, he's never had grea receivers or veen receivers an opposing defense had to game plan for, same is even more true re: running backs. Tiki and now Barkley - nobody close to great between them.