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Thinking about our future foundation

Keaton028 : 10/6/2019 9:53 pm
And the goal being to compete and contend year in and year out...
I see our core team as follows:

Dave Gettleman (so far I’m still on board with him)
Daniel Jones ( liked his poise today)
Saquon Barkley
Sterling Shepard
Darius Slayton (very intrigued)
Evan Engram
Will Hernandez
Jon Halapio
Kevin Zeitler
Dexter Lawrence (been excellent)
BJ Hill
O. Ximenes
Markus Golden
Lorenzo Carter
Ryan Connelly
DeAndre Baker (improving)
Jabrill Peppers

I’m honestly not sold on Shurmur as a winning coach that can achieve that dynastic goal. Nice guy and all, but doesn’t give me hope yet that he is the guy.

Tate, Ogletree, Jenkins, Remmers, Solder, Bethea are all starters I think can be upgraded. So while we have some young talent, we also still have a way to go before really contending. I think OT and LB really need to be made a priority this offseason. That will really be Gettleman’s cementing or undoing.

What say you? Do you see this team as really far off? Are the Giants on their way to being perennial contenders? Is Shurmur the guy? I think another decent offseason we may be on our way, but a terrible end to the season and we have to think about possibly upgrading the HC.


You don’t upgrade a coach  
ron mexico : 10/6/2019 10:00 pm : link
Like he is a left tackle, it doesn’t work that way. You have to give Shurmur a legitimate shot. It was one bad loss. Let’s see how the season plays out.
I actually  
Keaton028 : 10/6/2019 10:04 pm : link
don’t really blame this loss on Shurmur. We are beat up at a few key positions. But, thinking about the last two seasons... I just haven’t really had confidence in Shurmur putting together a competitive team against tough opponents. Thats all. I don’t hate the guy though.
barring a disaster this season, i think next year  
japanhead : 10/6/2019 10:05 pm : link
is shurmur's prove it year. i don't have a lot of confidence in him though. seems easily rattled and with a bad feel for the game and personnel rotations
I think Shurmur got too fancy in red zone because we had zero run game  
Zeke's Alibi : 10/6/2019 10:07 pm : link
But the way to approach that is try your basic shit the first time sown there, if that doesn't work than next time you try the fancy stuff.
We are putting some nice pieces together  
Keaton028 : 10/6/2019 10:11 pm : link
But in conjunction with that, I’m just concerned we might not have a coach that has the vision and game plan to keep us in the fight late every year.
Future  
charlito : 10/6/2019 10:20 pm : link
Looks bright.Nobody needs to get fired.This year is all about Daniel Jones getting experience. I'm expecting big things next year with all the cap room and another excellent draft.
Halapio is not a foundation piece  
j_rud : 10/6/2019 10:22 pm : link
Neither is Carter by the looks of it. Theyre solid depth on a good roster. If youre counting on them as major contributors youre probably a 6 win team.
I still have  
Keaton028 : 10/6/2019 10:24 pm : link
hopes for Carter improving to be a solid piece. You may be right on both though. They are young and I think they can be plus players on a contending team.
Hilapio isn't a foundation piece.  
Optimus-NY : 10/6/2019 10:25 pm : link
He's a jag and needs to be replaced next year along with the RT.
Tomlinson may be a keeper too.  
yatqb : 10/6/2019 10:28 pm : link
.
Ok we’ll  
Keaton028 : 10/6/2019 10:29 pm : link
cut Pio from this list. O Line in general needs to be a primary focus this offseason
What gives me hope  
Keaton028 : 10/6/2019 10:35 pm : link
is that many players from this list have been recent draft picks, and building through the draft is a step in the right direction.
Maybe add a few more to the core  
Rocky T 71 : 10/6/2019 10:53 pm : link
Gallman, and possibly Ballentine and Love, although we haven't seen enough of those two to know for sure.

Agree about Halapio, probably need an upgrade there.
Not as excited as the OP  
Marty866b : 10/6/2019 11:03 pm : link
We were manhandled on both sides of the ball today. Our o-line has sucked every game this year and folks here were happy with DG's rebuilding of this line. They may be better then last year but they still suck. The D-line doesn't rush the passer well and today( I am aware of the linebacking situation)the d-line gave up gaping holes in the run game. How many players that the Giants had on the field today would start for Minn? This is a young team whose draft choices are playing due to the lack of talent on the roster. At this point, we can compete with the other weak sisters in the league. If today was a measuring stick of some kind, we failed.
You are including in your core  
.McL. : 10/6/2019 11:48 pm : link
These guys????
Jon Halapio
Ryan Connelly

As nice a story as they are, neither has long term staying power. Halapio should be replaced ASAP. Connelly looked like a nice UDFA pickup but not really a star. Now he tore his ACL which may limit his athletic ability which he was relying on...

And these guys have a long way to go to prove they belong as part of any team's "core". Most are first or 2nd year players still trying to find their way. We have hope, but ods are that2 or 3 won't amount to anything.

Darius Slayton (very intrigued)
BJ Hill
O. Ximenes
Markus Golden
Lorenzo Carter
DeAndre Baker (improving)
RE: Hilapio isn't a foundation piece.  
santacruzom : 10/6/2019 11:50 pm : link
In comment 14615866 Optimus-NY said:
Quote:
He's a jag and needs to be replaced next year along with the RT.


And the left tackle.
RE: You are including in your core  
BleedBlue : 10/6/2019 11:55 pm : link
In comment 14615963 .McL. said:
Quote:
These guys????
Jon Halapio
Ryan Connelly

As nice a story as they are, neither has long term staying power. Halapio should be replaced ASAP. Connelly looked like a nice UDFA pickup but not really a star. Now he tore his ACL which may limit his athletic ability which he was relying on...

And these guys have a long way to go to prove they belong as part of any team's "core". Most are first or 2nd year players still trying to find their way. We have hope, but ods are that2 or 3 won't amount to anything.

Darius Slayton (very intrigued)
BJ Hill
O. Ximenes
Markus Golden
Lorenzo Carter
DeAndre Baker (improving)



Connelly wasn't an UDFA

I think he is absolutely a core piece. ACLS aren't like 15 yrs ago. Guys recover no problem today.
I expect him to be back and the starting ILBk along side
Sry  
BleedBlue : 10/6/2019 11:56 pm : link
Alongside tree or davis
RE: Sry  
BlueLou'sBack : 10/7/2019 12:04 am : link
In comment 14615974 BleedBlue said:
Quote:
Alongside tree or davis


I'd prefer Connelly alongside a stud ILB rookie drafted next year if value and slot intersect in next year's draft.
RE: You don’t upgrade a coach  
MookGiants : 10/7/2019 12:11 am : link
In comment 14615841 ron mexico said:
Quote:
Like he is a left tackle, it doesn’t work that way. You have to give Shurmur a legitimate shot. It was one bad loss. Let’s see how the season plays out.


Legitimate shot? He's been a loser as a head coach his entire career whenever he's gotten the chance. Bringing him back next year would just be delaying the inevitable. What has Shurmur ever done as a head coach to make even one person believe he can be a successful head coach
Of that group  
Breeze_94 : 10/7/2019 12:34 am : link
the guys who have the look of high impact starters

QB Jones
RB Barkley
TE Engram
LG Hernandez
DL Lawrence
S Peppers


Solid Starters
DL Hill
WR Shepard
DL Tomlinson
CB Baker

Not sure about yet (but have shown flashes so far)
EDGE Ximines
WR Slayton
LB Connelly
EDGE Carter

Solid Depth
RB Gallman
C Halapio
LB Davis
DL McIntosh

Back end of roster guys
S Chandler
NB Haley

Then there is Beal, Love, and Ballentine...haven't seen these guys play yet
Breeze  
Keaton028 : 10/7/2019 1:13 am : link
Solid post. I know a team can’t be made up of all superstars, but if we can get a team full of plus players, we’ll be in business. Those are the players I was attempting to identify in the OP.
RE: RE: You are including in your core  
.McL. : 10/7/2019 2:12 am : link
In comment 14615972 BleedBlue said:
Quote:
In comment 14615963 .McL. said:


Quote:


These guys????
Jon Halapio
Ryan Connelly

As nice a story as they are, neither has long term staying power. Halapio should be replaced ASAP. Connelly looked like a nice UDFA pickup but not really a star. Now he tore his ACL which may limit his athletic ability which he was relying on...

And these guys have a long way to go to prove they belong as part of any team's "core". Most are first or 2nd year players still trying to find their way. We have hope, but ods are that2 or 3 won't amount to anything.

Darius Slayton (very intrigued)
BJ Hill
O. Ximenes
Markus Golden
Lorenzo Carter
DeAndre Baker (improving)




Connelly wasn't an UDFA

I think he is absolutely a core piece. ACLS aren't like 15 yrs ago. Guys recover no problem today.
I expect him to be back and the starting ILBk along side


Yes, I had a brain fart, Connolly was a 5th round choice this year...

Still the point is that the odds of a 5th rounder becoming enough of a stud to be considered core is not high, and only slightly more than a UDFA.

ACL surgery has not changed much in the past 15 years, I should know, I had one about 30 years ago and another more recently (6 years ago).
RE: Of that group  
.McL. : 10/7/2019 2:14 am : link
In comment 14616000 Breeze_94 said:
Quote:
the guys who have the look of high impact starters

QB Jones
RB Barkley
TE Engram
LG Hernandez
DL Lawrence
S Peppers


Solid Starters
DL Hill
WR Shepard
DL Tomlinson
CB Baker

Not sure about yet (but have shown flashes so far)
EDGE Ximines
WR Slayton
LB Connelly
EDGE Carter

Solid Depth
RB Gallman
C Halapio
LB Davis
DL McIntosh

Back end of roster guys
S Chandler
NB Haley

Then there is Beal, Love, and Ballentine...haven't seen these guys play yet


I think this is pretty accurate Breeze...
There's an overarching factor  
Go Terps : 10/7/2019 2:29 am : link
I think we'll be searching for a new GM/head coach combo after 2020. When that happens, the new leadership will want to change the personnel to a degree. Perhaps not as radically as Gettleman has, but it's inevitable with new leadership.
Terps  
Keaton028 : 10/7/2019 2:33 am : link
Any way you seeing us keeping Gettleman but moving on from Shurmur?
RE: Terps  
.McL. : 10/7/2019 2:36 am : link
In comment 14616032 Keaton028 said:
Quote:
Any way you seeing us keeping Gettleman but moving on from Shurmur?

Personally I think that is likely. Assuming that DJ works out, DG has bought himself time. PS has not.
I wouldn’t be opposed to that.  
Keaton028 : 10/7/2019 2:41 am : link
I like what DG has done much more than what PS has put forth. Of course, it was DG who picked PS so I’m not sure about his ability to select a head coach
I have mixed opinions on DG...  
.McL. : 10/7/2019 2:47 am : link
I know saying that DG has bought himself time with DJ won't sit well with Terps...

And my opinion on what the team WILL do is just me being realistic about the situation, rather than providing a positive judgement.
RE: Terps  
Go Terps : 10/7/2019 3:17 am : link
In comment 14616032 Keaton028 said:
Quote:
Any way you seeing us keeping Gettleman but moving on from Shurmur?


Very possible. Gettleman is "family" and Shurmur isn't... he's likely just a misguided attempt to ease the transition from Eli to the next guy.

2019 - excuses are still built in (Eli was done, rookie QB, Reese)
2020 - expectations will be higher but Shurmur will still be a lousy head coach, and he'll pay for going 5-11

January 2021 - start over

We're reacting, not creating.
I agree to an extent but I do  
Keaton028 : 10/7/2019 3:25 am : link
feel like Gettleman has something of a vision, and I’m interested in giving him more time. I think he had made his mistakes- keeping Eli this year was a mis-step, and I’m still not in love with the Beckham trade post-signing. However, his drafts have seemed to be a plus so far.

Shurmur has really not done anything for me to see a light at the end of the tunnel in terms of losing. He has a career losing record, makes head scratching play calls at ill-advised times, and isn’t great with time management. He seems like a good guy, and an adult, but as a coach I’m not sure he cuts it as anything more than a decent coordinator.
RE: RE: Terps  
.McL. : 10/7/2019 3:50 am : link
In comment 14616042 Go Terps said:
Quote:
Very possible. Gettleman is "family"


Terps: How many nails did you have to chew on to type this?
RE: RE: Of that group  
NikkiMac : 10/7/2019 6:04 am : link
In comment 14616026 .McL. said:
Quote:
In comment 14616000 Breeze_94 said:


Quote:


the guys who have the look of high impact starters

QB Jones
RB Barkley
TE Engram
LG Hernandez
DL Lawrence
S Peppers


Solid Starters
DL Hill
WR Shepard
DL Tomlinson
CB Baker

Not sure about yet (but have shown flashes so far)
EDGE Ximines
WR Slayton
LB Connelly
EDGE Carter

Solid Depth
RB Gallman
C Halapio
LB Davis
DL McIntosh

Back end of roster guys
S Chandler
NB Haley

Then there is Beal, Love, and Ballentine...haven't seen these guys play yet



I think this is pretty accurate Breeze...


I agree this sounds much more realistic and let’s face it I expect the Giants to only add about 8 or 9 players next year anymore than that is too much turnover again I mean you can’t keep fielding a team of new rookies and adding 20 players or so that’s why if the giants have more than 8 picks next year I expect DG to use some As ammunition to move up .....
RE: Terps  
ron mexico : 10/7/2019 6:26 am : link
In comment 14616032 Keaton028 said:
Quote:
Any way you seeing us keeping Gettleman but moving on from Shurmur?


Gettleman picked Shurmur. If he ends up being yet another huge mistake by Gettleman, why should he get to choose the next coach?
HC is not a GM call, it’s an ownership call..  
Sean : 10/7/2019 6:37 am : link
I’d like to see the next HC be a true leader of men, not an offensive specialist.
RE: HC is not a GM call, it’s an ownership call..  
Diver_Down : 10/7/2019 6:52 am : link
In comment 14616073 Sean said:
Quote:
I’d like to see the next HC be a true leader of men, not an offensive specialist.


So many miss this basic fact about the Giants despite being a fan of the team. The GM does not hire the coach in a strict vacuum. It will always be collaborative, but Mara/Tisch will always make the head coaching call. Right or wrong that is how they conduct their business.

With regard to the criteria of being a leader of men? I think that is a lazy cliche. They all are at this level until the message grows stale. In Ben's case, he tried to project the authoritative role, but to use his own cliche - he was too heavy handed. If and when it comes time to cycle through the coaching staff, I would like a defensive minded coach. The Giants defense has been an embarrassment for far too long.
Thanks for the post  
Lines of Scrimmage : 10/7/2019 6:53 am : link
I agree we have many good young pieces. In the NFL today, it is hard not to have a few "Jag's" even on championship teams. The key imo is coaching and fitting them in where they are covered by better players.

I think DG is here to stay. He has not been perfect but he has a clear vision what wins in the league. I like that we are seeing good potential with later picks if not else as great role players and depth.

I think they are wasting time with Shurmur. I can see the media starting to really go after his record now that the Eli talk has faded. Then the players are going to start to question it imo.
excellent OP and by Breeze. I like Breeze's more granular  
markky : 10/7/2019 7:50 am : link
assessment of the players. It would be interesting to see this team by team, along with the draft assets and cap space for each team. I think that kind of chart would show where we really are.

and if you do this over a number of years it would show why some teams stay in contention by restocking and others have trouble climbing into contention. if you were to grade each team with a single number that encapsulated the value of the players on the roster, cap space and draft assets it would show that we are far from a contender today. we're in the process of replacing previous mistakes and replacing players that we jettisoned. we're not yet building on a solid foundation.

in terms of viable assets we (at least mathematically) went backwards when Gettleman jettisoned our high draft pick players (Collins, Apple). Not disagreeing with the decisions, just saying that we wasted valuable assets in the past when we picked these knuckleheads. and obviously we had some other highly drafted players (Flowers) that didn't work out at all. in terms of leveraging your draft picks to build a core team, we really screwed the pooch.

we also went backwards with most of the FA signings in the DG era. it shouldn't be a surprise that this will take a few years.

It's still about the O-line  
gmenatlarge : 10/7/2019 8:04 am : link
a top O-line will make this team competitive even when your star RB is out. This O-line is below average at best, the only keepers are the guards, center and both tackles are mediocre.
..  
ryanmkeane : 10/7/2019 11:38 am : link
Lawrence looks like an absolute beast, and he's turning 22 in November. That pick could be a home run.
Kevin Zeitler Overlooked?  
CJ in AZ : 10/7/2019 12:16 pm : link
Zeitler is core for the Giants. He will be starting at RG when Solder, Halapio and Remmer are all gone.

His age is only 29, he has been playing through a shoulder injury since game 1, and his history in the NFL is more impressive than all the other offensive line starters. That is why the Giants traded so much for him. Don't write him off based on the first 5 games, he is much better than that.
Only Seven of Your Core  
Percy : 10/7/2019 12:53 pm : link
Seventeen, IMHO, are worthy of being there. That tells you how much remains to be done.
Nice breakdown by Breeze.  
bceagle05 : 10/7/2019 1:00 pm : link
I might move Peppers out of the "high impact" category, but otherwise I agree with the list. Major work needs to be done to the front seven on defense and the offensive line.
I don't know how you can  
Dnew15 : 10/7/2019 2:22 pm : link
evaluate Shurmer so definitively when he's clearly working with inferior talent.

I look at a team like the Colts and they beat  
Dinger : 10/7/2019 2:58 pm : link
the Chiefs yesterday. I'm wondering what makes them different from the Giants. GM? Coach? Ownership? I mean their owner is a drugged out sexually deviant football genius. Reich can prepare his team enough to beat a potent offensive team in a low scoring game. I don't think Shurmur could do that. I mean you see progress there. Am I way off base with the comparison?
Jones  
Thegratefulhead : 10/7/2019 3:15 pm : link
Bought Shurmur at least another year. It was big part of the reason I was so bullish on Jones getting inserted early this year. Jones came in and looked very prepared. They get credit for that even if it was not their fault. DG drafted a pro ready QB and he looked good once inserted. Personally, I don't want a QB carousel while Jones is learning the game. This offense looks like it suits Jones very well. Can't wait to see him in it 2-3 years from now. I think Shurmur gets a few years unless it looks like a complete shit show.
err coaching carousel  
Thegratefulhead : 10/7/2019 3:17 pm : link
Want Jones to be in the same offense for a bit.
RE: I look at a team like the Colts and they beat  
Go Terps : 10/7/2019 3:19 pm : link
In comment 14616915 Dinger said:
Quote:
the Chiefs yesterday. I'm wondering what makes them different from the Giants. GM? Coach? Ownership? I mean their owner is a drugged out sexually deviant football genius. Reich can prepare his team enough to beat a potent offensive team in a low scoring game. I don't think Shurmur could do that. I mean you see progress there. Am I way off base with the comparison?


You aren't. Shit, look at our own history with Coughlin. He inherited an awful roster with no offensive line and no quarterback. Year 1 he went 6-10. Year 2? 11-5.

If Shurmur follows up 5-11 with 6-10, why should he be the coach in 2020?
.  
Danny Kanell : 10/7/2019 3:33 pm : link
Despite some terrible misses in free agency, I still think Gettleman has us headed in the right direction. The past 2 drafts have been excellent.

Shurmur on the other hand is the worst head coach we have had since Ray Handley. McAdoo was a better head coach. Fassel was a better head coach. Obviously TC. Even Reeves was a better coach. I know many fans don't want to accept it yet and want to "give him more time" but this coach has been an unmitigated disaster since he was hired. He's not a winning head coach and i'm very confident he will never be.

I know we are going to give him one more year for continuity's sake with the young QB but it's just delaying the inevitable IMO.
I'll take Handley over Shurmur  
Go Terps : 10/7/2019 3:44 pm : link
We fired Handley after he went 8-8 and 6-10 in his two seasons. In his three full seasons as a head coach, Shurmur is 4-12, 5-11, and 5-11.

Handley rightly a pariah with Giants fans, but strangely those same fans are willing to give Shurmur another season even if this one remains at his customary 5-11ish level.

And it wasn't long ago...2006...that fans were chanting "Tom must go" after he went 6-10, 11-5, and 9-7 (Tiki saved Coughlin's job; 8-8 would have gotten Coughlin fired). But back to back double digit loss seasons and Shurmur will still be safe.

Standards have declined, and the fan base (and ownership) accepts losing much more easily than it used to.
RE: RE: I look at a team like the Colts and they beat  
Klaatu : 10/7/2019 3:44 pm : link
In comment 14616962 Go Terps said:
Quote:
In comment 14616915 Dinger said:


Quote:


the Chiefs yesterday. I'm wondering what makes them different from the Giants. GM? Coach? Ownership? I mean their owner is a drugged out sexually deviant football genius. Reich can prepare his team enough to beat a potent offensive team in a low scoring game. I don't think Shurmur could do that. I mean you see progress there. Am I way off base with the comparison?



You aren't. Shit, look at our own history with Coughlin. He inherited an awful roster with no offensive line and no quarterback. Year 1 he went 6-10. Year 2? 11-5.


Of course, that year the Giants spent big in free agency - Plax, Pierce, McKenzie - and had an extra home game (Saints). They also sent five guys to the Pro Bowl. There was a heck of a lot of talent on that team, much more than now.

And the next year they went 8-8 and almost drove TC out of town (and Eli with him).

Quote:
If Shurmur follows up 5-11 with 6-10, why should he be the coach in 2020?


Maybe he shouldn't, or maybe they'd like to keep him around to continue developing Jones? I really don't know.
RE: You are including in your core  
LeftHook : 10/7/2019 3:46 pm : link
In comment 14615963 .McL. said:
Quote:
These guys????
Jon Halapio
Ryan Connelly

As nice a story as they are, neither has long term staying power. Halapio should be replaced ASAP. Connelly looked like a nice UDFA pickup but not really a star. Now he tore his ACL which may limit his athletic ability which he was relying on...Connelly was a 5th rounder, with a very high Football IQ One of his best traits. He's pretty good at diagnosing plays. Hopefully he comes back from the injury.

And these guys have a long way to go to prove they belong as part of any team's "core". Most are first or 2nd year players still trying to find their way. We have hope, but ods are that2 or 3 won't amount to anything.

Darius Slayton (very intrigued)
BJ Hill
O. Ximenes
Markus Golden
Lorenzo Carter
DeAndre Baker (improving)
RE: I'll take Handley over Shurmur  
ron mexico : 10/7/2019 3:51 pm : link
In comment 14617000 Go Terps said:
Quote:
We fired Handley after he went 8-8 and 6-10 in his two seasons. In his three full seasons as a head coach, Shurmur is 4-12, 5-11, and 5-11.

Handley rightly a pariah with Giants fans, but strangely those same fans are willing to give Shurmur another season even if this one remains at his customary 5-11ish level.

And it wasn't long ago...2006...that fans were chanting "Tom must go" after he went 6-10, 11-5, and 9-7 (Tiki saved Coughlin's job; 8-8 would have gotten Coughlin fired). But back to back double digit loss seasons and Shurmur will still be safe.

Standards have declined, and the fan base (and ownership) accepts losing much more easily than it used to.


You and Odell finally agree on something!

Ask any one of my teammates of who I was as a teammates and a man and a person.... yes I’m cancer to a place that’s ok wit losing because I want to win that BADDD. Ur absolutely correct !

— Odell Beckham Jr (@obj) April 23, 2019
other than  
Bill in UT : 10/7/2019 3:54 pm : link
Barkley, Shep, Engram and probably Zeitler (who I assume is playing hurt), while most of the rest have potential, I don't think any of them have proven to be impact players that we can count on.
RE: I'll take Handley over Shurmur  
Greg from LI : 10/7/2019 3:55 pm : link
In comment 14617000 Go Terps said:
Quote:
We fired Handley after he went 8-8 and 6-10 in his two seasons.



Of course, that was largely because he inherited a 13-3 championship team and ran them into the ground. Somehow I suspect Ray Handley wasn't going 8-8 with the current roster.
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