This B.S. "The team is 1 more draft away from competing"

He isn�t the special teams coordinator anymore.

yeah, but he also did that against 3 other teams this year. He's the best back in the league right now. Maybe he's just good?

Also, our defense is down a few LBS. I think we are a draft away.

Slightly over simplified imo. We're one offseason away from competing. We have free agent money to spend. We'll have good draft position plus some extra comp picks. Jones is taking his lumps cutting his teeth as a rookie starter along with many other young talented players recently acquired. We're making progress.

100 million dollars in cap space next year away. This year was always going to be tough.

along with some young players taking the next step.

This is a very young team. It will get younger with all the draft picks we have.

You can make an argument that we need help at every position maybe except QB, but we will need a vet back up ( please no Tanney ).

On offense: Center, future LT, future RT, WR
On defense: Pass rusher, Inside LB, FS and another Pass rusher.

Luck and health will be welcome to show up as well but one can only hope that one more offseason and some maturity and improvement from our young core will make this a play off team in 2020.

.

In comment 14616932 LawrenceTaylor56 said:

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yeah, but he also did that against 3 other teams this year. He's the best back in the league right now. Maybe he's just good? Also, our defense is down a few LBS. I think we are a draft away.

McCaffrey laughed at that comment.

It should be interesting....

In comment 14616932 LawrenceTaylor56 said:

Quote:

yeah, but he also did that against 3 other teams this year. He's the best back in the league right now.

Crazy how they found him in the second round and didn't need to spend a top 3 pick on him...

That's a defeatist argument. Organizations that are having difficulties always go through a process that takes time and change to achieve a different result.

No. I can not, if you ask some about the Giants before this off season they would have told you that you were 2 years away.

You can call it loser refrain - some just call it accurate analysis. I am usually the optimistic fan on most of these threads because I am realist. I do not want to fire the GM, I do not want to fire the coaches - we need more talent, plain and simple. There is progress being made and I just expect more progress to be made.

I feel like Baker has looked a lot better since Game 1. I could say good things about a lot of our younger players. I root for my team to Win every game but does not mean I also have to be blind to reasonable achievements.

To raise their level as we go through this year, I'd like to know that Baker, and perhaps Beal will be our future, our 3 big guys up front become a force, DJ continues his progress, Saquan continues to be one of the most fearful backs in the league Slayton, Engram are impact players.

Players need to good from good to the next level, think about the Mets, given the year Alonso, McNeil, Conforto had, I am excited about next year, that can be the case with the Giants, but guys need to step up.

You mean there are other good RBs in the NFL who were picked where RBs should be picked? Who knew? Just so I understand, with a HC that will have won about 20 games and lost about 45 as a HC in the NFL the Giants are one draft away? One draft away from what? Another new HC?

In comment 14616942 Go Terps said:

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.

Agreed

In comment 14616932 LawrenceTaylor56 said:

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yeah, but he also did that against 3 other teams this year. He's the best back in the league right now. Maybe he's just good? Also, our defense is down a few LBS. I think we are a draft away.

he is a great back, but seriously some of the attempts to tackle him by our LB and Jenkins were just flat out terrible.

DING DING DING you win dumbest post of the day!!! Congrats here's a balloon animal prize commensurate with your intelligence level.

In comment 14616959 NewBlue said:

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To raise their level as we go through this year, I'd like to know that Baker, and perhaps Beal will be our future, our 3 big guys up front become a force, DJ continues his progress, Saquan continues to be one of the most fearful backs in the league Slayton, Engram are impact players. Players need to good from good to the next level, think about the Mets, given the year Alonso, McNeil, Conforto had, I am excited about next year, that can be the case with the Giants, but guys need to step up.

The fans who say we are 1 year away would agree with you on looking forward to young players stepping up. That does make it untrue that we need one more off season to bring in the necessary talent to compete with the best teams in the league. If you took all the linebackers out for the Vikings and took Delvin Cook away from them that game could have been very different. Its not about making excuses - its just the reality of the situation, the Vikings are not even that great of team but if you took all those players away from them - they would be a year away with an expensive QB to boot.

In comment 14616934 Torrag said:

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Slightly over simplified imo. We're one offseason away from competing. We have free agent money to spend. We'll have good draft position plus some extra comp picks. Jones is taking his lumps cutting his teeth as a rookie starter along with many other young talented players recently acquired. We're making progress.

Couldnt have said it any better myself. I think e are going to be an attractive location/team once again for FA's.

There is a mentality, a bit intangible, but perhaps a cockiness, Serby always would call it "Swag" that has been missing on this team, not sure what comes first, winning or attitude.
Leadership here? someone who can instill Giants pride, please step up and make yourself known

We're not competitive now because we're short on talent. So, what do we do? Sign it in free agency and draft it, of course. How else would you expect us to compete?

What was fixed last offseason? Not the secondary. Not the pass rush.

On defense, it's taken 2 years just to fix the defensive line.

They're still not good enough at OL and they're developing a track record of missing on free agents.

In comment 14616978 Klaatu said:

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We're not competitive now because we're short on talent. So, what do we do? Sign it in free agency and draft it, of course. How else would you expect us to compete?

yeah what else can you do. The problem is every other team also gets to participate in the draft and free agency. We need to do a better job than most other teams to gain ground and so far that hasn't been the case.

the dead cap space PLUS 23 million sitting on the bench was delusional.

I had a thread over the summer about record correlation and dead cap space and the results were you will have a losing season, with three notable exceptions. One got All Pro QB play, one had an elite offensive line, and the Bills which were just a statistical anomaly with turnovers, they were bottom of the league in yards for and against.

That being said if this team doesn't make the playoffs next year and DJ plays the majority of the season they need to move on. This team is one year away from competing. The drafts have been good and that is the key to success in the NFL. We traded away our talent for draft picks. An aging one dimensional Snacks Harrison either resulted in Slayton or Connelly, two players look like they are going to be major contributors moving forward.

....again.

the jury is still out on every player on this team, as well as on the coach and the gm. To say a team is one offseason away is to suggest there is a core in place of players already on the team who you can reasonably expect to be highly productive next season. Right now the Giants just have big question marks virtually everywhere. Maybe it will turn out in retrospect that a core is already here, but there is no way to say that with any reasonable degree of certainty right now. The sample size is too small for the rookies and none of the sophomores have done enough yet to warrant that level of certainty as to their future performance, including Mr. Generational. At the moment, it just seems like the "wait until next year" talk is a way of rationalizing non-competitive losses to mediocre teams. Its based on hope, not evidence.

in complete shambles. In his last 7 drafts, he drafted exactly 1 player on the DL who has been decently solid, Tomlinson, and he drafted no players at LB or OL who made a big impact and stayed with the team past their first contract. Think about that for a second. That's about 40-45 players drafted, and just about 1-2 of them on the front 7 and OL were any good.

He used top 10, franchise changing picks on Ereck Flowers and Eli Apple, two of the biggest busts in recent memory.He used high mid round picks on a ton of guys who aren't even in the NFL anymore. 2nd and 3rd round picks who just didn't enjoy football or seem to be any good.

This took 7 years to do, and it put us in absolute roster hell. Gettleman has done a pretty good job all things considered. It seems like he has made the correct calls with our franchise changing picks the past 2 years, and has drafted some good talent around Jones and Barkley. Yes, he has missed on some FA, but they haven't been huge crippling misses, we moved on already from a few of them, and the cap is set up nicely for the forseeable future. Let's see what he can do in 2020 and 2021 to get this team in Super Bowl contention within 2-3 seasons, because yes, it's going to take at least that long.

but its a little brave to just go out and say that too loudly right now.

Need better pieces on that O-line and a whole lot of impact players of Defense (ER, LB, Safety).

Arrow is pointing more up than down, but nowhere near straight up...

I agree Solder has disappointed me and was a huge contract. Beyond that they haven't invested much in free agency on DG's watch. Tate has played one game so that's a wash atm. Guys like Stewart/Bethea are short term stopgap teacher/caretaker signings. He took a shot on the trade for ogletree and he hasn't been very good but again didn't give up much in the deal. Golden is making some plays and in a small sample David Mayo has played well imo.

I'll reserve judgement until next years acquisitions. DG has to haul in some legit ready for prime time players.

a minor miracle if we're a contender next year. Not only are there a bunch of obvious upgrades needed, but I'm not yet convinced that the guys out of the last 2 drafts are going to rise to the level we need them to. I'm certainly hopeful, but not optimistic.

In comment 14616948 Default said:

Quote:

In comment 14616932 LawrenceTaylor56 said: Quote: yeah, but he also did that against 3 other teams this year. He's the best back in the league right now. Crazy how they found him in the second round and didn't need to spend a top 3 pick on him...

He didn't fall due to talent, it was due to character concerns. He would've been at least a top 20 pick

In comment 14616948 Default said:

Quote:

In comment 14616932 LawrenceTaylor56 said: Quote: yeah, but he also did that against 3 other teams this year. He's the best back in the league right now. Crazy how they found him in the second round and didn't need to spend a top 3 pick on him...

Let me try:

-Tom Brady was picked in the sixth round
-no QB should be picked before the sixth round

In comment 14617007 Nine-Tails said:

Quote:

In comment 14616948 Default said: Quote: In comment 14616932 LawrenceTaylor56 said: Quote: yeah, but he also did that against 3 other teams this year. He's the best back in the league right now. Crazy how they found him in the second round and didn't need to spend a top 3 pick on him... He didn't fall due to talent, it was due to character concerns. He would've been at least a top 20 pick

Right:

"Dalvin Cook is a first-round talent who slipped into the second round solely because of the off-the-field issues. ... When you put his tape on, he's special. He'll make a difference in Minnesota." -- Mike Mayock"

For me 'competing and contender' aren't quite the same thing. It would be progress next season to have a winning record and expectation of vying for a playoff berth. I didn't think either of those were realistic this season. Contending is going to take longer.

In comment 14616985 ron mexico said:

Quote:

In comment 14616978 Klaatu said: Quote: We're not competitive now because we're short on talent. So, what do we do? Sign it in free agency and draft it, of course. How else would you expect us to compete? yeah what else can you do. The problem is every other team also gets to participate in the draft and free agency. We need to do a better job than most other teams to gain ground and so far that hasn't been the case.

Doesn't mean you stop trying. As I see it, one saving grace is that where we're the weakest, free agency and the draft are the strongest. So pray for a little serendipity. Light a few candles. Sacrifice a goat or two. Get the football Gods on our side for a change.

Lots of young players and cap space, although I don't want to go on a spending spree, what team has ever built a strong team doing that?

lets says the wheels fall off and we are to 5 somehow vs drafting in the middle of the rounds ... We could do well to get 2 LBs, FS, WR


With the pending QBs someone will offer a nice offer assortment of picks and/or player/picks combo to move up.

Couple that with FA $$$ it is possible.

like Joseph and Hankins. Lival was decent here but went on to star in Minny with better coaching (he said as much as few years ago). Devon Kennard is a stud LB for Detroit but was only ok here. The defense was lights out in 2016, then injuries and poor coaching (once again took over).

crop could be stacked. I Still think this team will struggle to win games so picking reasonably high + a good FA class the Giants absolutely can be a playoff caliber team this time next year

in this DG process. Saying anything definitive, especially on the hopeful side, requires a seriously powerful crystal ball. So let's take a look...

OFFENSE

1. We may or we may not have a franchise QB in Jones. The good news is we are going to get him 14 games of reps to build this first year foundation. And he's certainly flashed. The big unknown is if Shurmur is the right guy to groom Jones.

2. 2/5 of the OL seems reliable. That's far from healthy. So does anyone feel good about that going forward? Hindsight is 20/20, but I'm getting closer to being convinced taking Nelson over Barkley, and then going Chubb is round two, may have been the much better solution. Because Nelson solves two huge needs for any team: great run blocker and now on the verge of being a top end pass blocker.

3. Receiver corp is okay right now. But I most agree more speed would help.

4. Barkley is a great talent. I just have a feeling that solving other problems are more important than keeping Barkley for the long term. Perhaps his asset value is really is off the field trade value...??

5. Anyone feel good about the back-up QB solution going forward?

DEFENSE

1. Who knows if we have solved for a pass rush need. Very mixed results with DG's solutions so far. Last I checked, Josh Allen is one of the top pass rushers in the league at getting QB pressure. Another sack and 2 QB hits yesterday.

2. Linebackers are still a huge hole. Arguably we need an infusion of at least three.

3. We are younger in the back-end and have quantity. The quality part is a huge TBD.

So that's still a lot of problems to potentially solve. And all of this is before we get into depth issues...

In comment 14617024 Klaatu said:

Quote:

In comment 14616985 ron mexico said: Quote: In comment 14616978 Klaatu said: Quote: We're not competitive now because we're short on talent. So, what do we do? Sign it in free agency and draft it, of course. How else would you expect us to compete? yeah what else can you do. The problem is every other team also gets to participate in the draft and free agency. We need to do a better job than most other teams to gain ground and so far that hasn't been the case. Doesn't mean you stop trying. As I see it, one saving grace is that where we're the weakest, free agency and the draft are the strongest. So pray for a little serendipity. Light a few candles. Sacrifice a goat or two. Get the football Gods on our side for a change.

Im in!

In comment 14616998 Torrag said:

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I agree Solder has disappointed me and was a huge contract. Beyond that they haven't invested much in free agency on DG's watch. Tate has played one game so that's a wash atm. Guys like Stewart/Bethea are short term stopgap teacher/caretaker signings. He took a shot on the trade for ogletree and he hasn't been very good but again didn't give up much in the deal. Golden is making some plays and in a small sample David Mayo has played well imo. I'll reserve judgement until next years acquisitions. DG has to haul in some legit ready for prime time players.

Maybe the better description is his veteran acquisitions. Gettleman spent more money last year than Reese did in his infamous spending spree. He traded for Ogletree with a big price tag, re-signed Beckham, signed Martin, signed Solder, Omameh, Stewart and a few other minor characters.

This last year he acquired Tate, Golden, Pierre, Zeitler, and a few minor characters.

I can understand if Beckham is viewed as a positive because it netted Lawrence, Ximines, and Peppers.

Ogletree is not good value. Solder is not good value. Martin is not good value. Omameh was a disaster. Stewart was a disaster.

Tate is a dumbass and redundant. Pierre is average. Zeitler is an upgrade financially (I don't see a huge upgrade in play from Jamon Brown quite honestly), Golden has been absolutely fantastic, he's a really good player.

I thought every person who didn't want Bark wanted a QB. I'm ok with Daniel Jones, I like him, kind of makes the Barkley pick a non issue I think. I guess the only fans left angry would have taken a QB then Josh Allen in this years draft. The only issue with that reasoning is you cant say that Barkley is not amazing enough to possibly take pressure off a young QB. Anyway, I'm confused.

Am I really that off base that I am ok how things are going and I think they are headed in the right direction? The past is the past. We had to rebuild. I understand not being a fan of Gettlemans FA pick ups but some of them I think were to appease the owners that we were trying to win now at the same time rebuilding. A lot of the rebuild decisions have been good ones.

The Barkley pick was like buying a Ferrari when your house is about to be condemned.

just how bad this team had become. They have taken a few Giant steps in repairing the damage, but there is still much work to do. IMO, the team still needs ERs, OL (2 or 3), WR, FS.

In comment 14617067 SteelGiant said:

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I thought every person who didn't want Bark wanted a QB. I'm ok with Daniel Jones, I like him, kind of makes the Barkley pick a non issue I think. I guess the only fans left angry would have taken a QB then Josh Allen in this years draft. The only issue with that reasoning is you cant say that Barkley is not amazing enough to possibly take pressure off a young QB. Anyway, I'm confused. Am I really that off base that I am ok how things are going and I think they are headed in the right direction? The past is the past. We had to rebuild. I understand not being a fan of Gettlemans FA pick ups but some of them I think were to appease the owners that we were trying to win now at the same time rebuilding. A lot of the rebuild decisions have been good ones.

look at what the Colts did in that draft and think of what could have been

2012 I got into a heated discussion - and I mean HEATED - with a poster here about not taking a RB in the 1st Round. Last year I just said fuck it, I'm not going rehash an argument from six years ago.

Needs their head examined... Please tell me a better scenario of the two picks using just TWO picks and not some retarded draft day trade lunacy. This ought to be good... Feel free to use hindsight, you know, like chubby blowing out an ACL... Have at it!

That is...

Might as well write 'em off. Let's close up the bridge and get out of here.

In comment 14617103 ron mexico said:

Quote:

In comment 14617067 SteelGiant said: Quote: I thought every person who didn't want Bark wanted a QB. I'm ok with Daniel Jones, I like him, kind of makes the Barkley pick a non issue I think. I guess the only fans left angry would have taken a QB then Josh Allen in this years draft. The only issue with that reasoning is you cant say that Barkley is not amazing enough to possibly take pressure off a young QB. Anyway, I'm confused. Am I really that off base that I am ok how things are going and I think they are headed in the right direction? The past is the past. We had to rebuild. I understand not being a fan of Gettlemans FA pick ups but some of them I think were to appease the owners that we were trying to win now at the same time rebuilding. A lot of the rebuild decisions have been good ones. look at what the Colts did in that draft and think of what could have been

So what could have been? I dont look at the Colts they are some kind of Juggernaut. I get that they just held the Chiefs to 13 but they are only one week removed from giving up 31 to the Raiders. You honestly would have passed on Barkley and would have handed the franchise to a 26 year old Brisett? I will give you they look better this year but I have no issue with where out team is headed. Feel free to become a Colts fan, I wont stop you. We are young and talented, one more draft and lots of money to spend. Give DJ a year under his belt.

Future looks bright. Next year will be 10+ win season. We draft pretty well the past couple of years and we'll have a few dollars to spend 😁.

Giants have been winning superbowls every decade since the Eighties.

In comment 14617116 Bradshaw's Decal said:

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Needs their head examined... Please tell me a better scenario of the two picks using just TWO picks and not some retarded draft day trade lunacy. This ought to be good... Feel free to use hindsight, you know, like chubby blowing out an ACL... Have at it!

Is it an outrageous scenario if the team picking one spot behind us did exactly that? Sure tell me the jets wouldn�t trade with us as excuse.

It�s a 5 yr rebuild...get used to more games like yesterday

Who BTW have a better roster...?

Living in denial. But... if we suddenly matured our 2019 draft picks by a year, and acquired 5-7 additional contributors, then yes I do believe we are a draft away. We will also have a ton of cap space for a free agent restructure. I think the personnel will be here, but will Betcher and Shurmur lead them?

they were winning.

The sky is always falling after a loss

Next year our last 2 years of drafts will have experience under their belt, we will have another draft class and FA class coming in, and we will get all healthy again. Sure we need some players, but I don't think we are far away. Plus I am really excited about our young players, and expect them to improve and really contribute shortly

It's a valid scenario. Quenton Nelson and Nick Chubb were an option. All things equal I'd prefer the All Pro guard and good running back over the inverse.

This has nothing to do with Jones. He was the right pick and a good pick.

In comment 14616948 Default said:

Quote:

In comment 14616932 LawrenceTaylor56 said: Quote: yeah, but he also did that against 3 other teams this year. He's the best back in the league right now. Crazy how they found him in the second round and didn't need to spend a top 3 pick on him...

Wasn't he supposed to be a high pick but fell for either personal reasons or injury history?

In comment 14617165 PatersonPlank said:

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Next year our last 2 years of drafts will have experience under their belt, we will have another draft class and FA class coming in, and we will get all healthy again. Sure we need some players, but I don't think we are far away. Plus I am really excited about our young players, and expect them to improve and really contribute shortly

I agree, plus we have the QB to build around, it would appear.

The other thing is, teams in your division don't simply continue to get better....there can be digresssion. That helps to close the gap.

The trick is to get better yourself........

Until the end of the season, before we proclaim that they are a bottom 10�team, the coach can�t win, there are no core players, etc. etc. etc.

2-3 is better than last season 0-5 especially when you consider they were two touchdown passes away from being in a close game, despite being depleted.

7-9 to 9-7 shows improvement to significant improvement. You want to scoff at that notion based on 3 losses, go ahead.

But those that make predictions based only on the present performance of any team in any sport, are often proven wrong

We shall see.

Until the end of the season, before we proclaim that they are a bottom 10�team, the coach can�t win, there are no core players, etc. etc. etc.

2-3 is better than last season 0-5 especially when you consider they were two touchdown passes away from being in a close game, despite being depleted.

7-9 to 9-7 shows improvement to significant improvement. You want to scoff at that notion based on 3 losses, go ahead.

But those that make predictions based only on the present performance of any team in any sport, are often proven wrong

We shall see.

I love Jones, Barkley and Lawrence - excellent young players and future locker room leaders. Overall the drafting has vastly improved these past two years.

Now, the bad. Gettleman will have a ton of free agent money to spend, and his free agent track record is poor, especially the big ticket items. Also, Shurmur is a loser. I don't want to hear about talent level and injuries and Eli blah blah blah - he's fucking terrible.

In comment 14617196 BillKo said:

Quote:

In comment 14617165 PatersonPlank said: Quote: Next year our last 2 years of drafts will have experience under their belt, we will have another draft class and FA class coming in, and we will get all healthy again. Sure we need some players, but I don't think we are far away. Plus I am really excited about our young players, and expect them to improve and really contribute shortly I agree, plus we have the QB to build around, it would appear. The other thing is, teams in your division don't simply continue to get better....there can be digresssion. That helps to close the gap. The trick is to get better yourself........

Great point regarding teams in the Division. Eagles to me don't look like a declining team and a lot of age. Washington is a mess. Dallas to me stands as the one they will have to overcome the next 2-4 years. Shurmur/Jones versus Garrett/Prescott and who has the best supporting team.

But there is a massive elephant in the room you are ignoring in your post: (well 2 massive elephants really)

1) the fact that our backup quarterback is like a $20M cap hit AND
2) we signed a star WR a year ago to a massive contract and traded him a year later and are swallowing that full dead money cap hit this year.

That along with plenty of other dead money we�re swallowing this year from trades that Gettleman made ridding the team of Jerry Reese�s expensive wastefulness.

Think of it this way: DG had pressure from Mara to NOT rebuild and instead try to turn this into a winning team in one year (thinking Eli could still be the answer). When it became clear they needed a full rebuild, Dg started tearing everything down in the middle-end of 2018 and we�re literally taking on the full effect of that tear down in the form of dead money and unnecessary cap right now in 2019. So I give DG a 1 year pass for the pressure Mara put on him to �win now� last year and I consider this year the first year of the actual rebuild. There is no way with this young roster and all that empty cap space that the Giants can compete with teams that are actually making good use of their salary cap, period.

When space clears up in 2020 and DG can actually make moves then we will see what kind of GM he really is. I also can�t see any intelligent GM using all the space just to use it (and overpay players and force signings) so I give him 2020 and 2021 to fully fill out this roster. I expect marked improvement next year and I expect the Giants to be at least competing for the division and in the playoffs in 2021 (otherwise Saquon is going to bolt to another team quickly and we�ll be screwed anyway). If we�re still �on the outside looking in� at 8-8 or 9-7 in 2021 then yes I will have deemed this regime a failure and would say its time to try something new. But for now let�s at least see what he can do with a full salary cap to use and also the burden of �winning now� with Eli off his shoulders.

Right up there with Miami, Washington, Cincy and Jets in all key statistical categories. They are young but the D is also slow, can't tackle and rarely forces turnovers. At some point Giants need to invest in play-makers and not simply go out and overpay Arizona re-treads. Golden is OK but wouldn't you rather have Shaq Barrett or Zedarious Smith? How has Bethea played? Hell has Kareem Martin even suited up once this year?

Good Offense can make up for bad Defense, but only if the Offense can stay on the field for more than half the game and score on a consistent basis. I think Giants are close to having decent Offense that can sustain drives consistently, but other than Barkley the skill positions don't scare anyone and that means D coordinators are going to keep bringing pressure to force Jones to play faster.

Facts are facts, DG's decision to overpay mediocre FAs is pretty much a recipe for disaster on either side of the ball.

It pains me to admit it, but Philly's been a top-flight organization for a while now - certainly since the turn of the century. It's surprising they only have one title.

As for Dallas, Dak is a good QB who's about to get "great QB" money, and their offensive line isn't quite as dominant as it was a few years ago. We saw with our great 07/08 crew that a good line can get old quickly.

In comment 14616989 ryanmkeane said:

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in complete shambles. In his last 7 drafts, he drafted exactly 1 player on the DL who has been decently solid, Tomlinson, and he drafted no players at LB or OL who made a big impact and stayed with the team past their first contract. Think about that for a second. That's about 40-45 players drafted, and just about 1-2 of them on the front 7 and OL were any good.

This is exactly right. Football is a game won in the trenches. The fact that Reese was so awful at evaluating OL in particular is what left this team in shambles. Reese did have his strengths, but evaluating OL was certainly not one of them, and he won those 2 Super Bowls in thanks mostly to inheriting a great (and fairly cheap) O-Line and then filling out the roster with good players at the positions that he WAS good at evaluating. But once the OL deteriorated the whole team deteriorated. Your offense cant do shit without an OL and your team can�t win shit in an offense-oriented league when you can�t score points.

In comment 14617223 Leg of Theismann said:

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But there is a massive elephant in the room you are ignoring in your post: (well 2 massive elephants really) 1) the fact that our backup quarterback is like a $20M cap hit AND 2) we signed a star WR a year ago to a massive contract and traded him a year later and are swallowing that full dead money cap hit this year. That along with plenty of other dead money we�re swallowing this year from trades that Gettleman made ridding the team of Jerry Reese�s expensive wastefulness. Think of it this way: DG had pressure from Mara to NOT rebuild and instead try to turn this into a winning team in one year (thinking Eli could still be the answer). When it became clear they needed a full rebuild, Dg started tearing everything down in the middle-end of 2018 and we�re literally taking on the full effect of that tear down in the form of dead money and unnecessary cap right now in 2019. So I give DG a 1 year pass for the pressure Mara put on him to �win now� last year and I consider this year the first year of the actual rebuild. There is no way with this young roster and all that empty cap space that the Giants can compete with teams that are actually making good use of their salary cap, period. When space clears up in 2020 and DG can actually make moves then we will see what kind of GM he really is. I also can�t see any intelligent GM using all the space just to use it (and overpay players and force signings) so I give him 2020 and 2021 to fully fill out this roster. I expect marked improvement next year and I expect the Giants to be at least competing for the division and in the playoffs in 2021 (otherwise Saquon is going to bolt to another team quickly and we�ll be screwed anyway). If we�re still �on the outside looking in� at 8-8 or 9-7 in 2021 then yes I will have deemed this regime a failure and would say its time to try something new. But for now let�s at least see what he can do with a full salary cap to use and also the burden of �winning now� with Eli off his shoulders.

Agree totally with how things went down with DG. He may have all realized the roster was worse then initial film study early last year. I am on board with him for a few years.

The coaching staff, not so much. If they are back there should be expectations of playoffs next year imo. This year, I really thought meaningful games in December was reasonable.

So that's a plus. I think we can compete for a playoff spot in '20.

DG seems like he relatively knows what he is doing in the draft. He is a scout at heart so I think he's done a solid job there in the 2 years he's been here.

However, dude is a complete trash in FA. Where do I start?

Solder
Tate
BETHEA
Omameh
Stewart
Martin
Riley
Mauro
Latimer
Remmers

Trade - Basically taking on money for Ogletree

I mean outside of Golden who pretty has been the only productive FA signing in 2 years...thats pretty unacceptable.

He's going to have a decent amount of $$$ going forward and he really hasn't gave me a lot of confidence he knows how to bring in veteran talent.

In addition to just about everything on defense, the NYG need an alpha at WR, 2 OT�s, and a Center. The roster is still a bottom 10 roster. Yesterday showed how far away we are from where we�d like to be.

In comment 14617165 PatersonPlank said:

Quote:

Next year our last 2 years of drafts will have experience under their belt, we will have another draft class and FA class coming in, and we will get all healthy again. Sure we need some players, but I don't think we are far away. Plus I am really excited about our young players, and expect them to improve and really contribute shortly

^This -- thank you for your sanity PP -- there is a real over the edge over-reaction to this loss that baffles the mind

The fans have been trained to accept losing. Over 500 yards given to what was a struggling offense.

Somehow people think the arrow is pointed up.

Don't be ridiculous. And while the 2017 team was 3-13, it was pretty much the same roster that went 11-5 in 2016. The coach lost them. If DG decided to have a fire sale on talent as a result, rather than just get a coach that could handle the talent, it was his responsibility to replace it quickly. I'm willing to spot last year, and I can appreciate that he seems to have drafted very well. But his decisions with veterans have generally been putrid. And I can make some allowance for a rookie QB who seems talented but will have some growing pains. So I can accept, perhaps 8-8. But another losing season should have him, Shurmur and Bettcher out of work.

You still would need a quarterback with those selections...???

looks like a player, Barkley is good and Lawrence looks good too. Team still sucks though, last year they were 1 - 4 after five weeks when a Panther hit a 63 yarder. This year would be 1 - 4 too, but the Buc kicker shanked a chip shot a few weeks ago.

Not reall too much improvement through five there. Jones being in makes things about the future so it feels a bit different, but the Giants are still bad and get their asses kicked and physically dominated almost every week.

Maybe after one more draft, maybe two, maybe three, how about another coach. They are bad until proven otherwise.

This loss against the Vikings was not a close game. They whipped the Giants, in their house.

In comment 14617016 Torrag said:

Quote:

For me 'competing and contender' aren't quite the same thing. It would be progress next season to have a winning record and expectation of vying for a playoff berth. I didn't think either of those were realistic this season. Contending is going to take longer.

that assumes the people in charge are different/better. We have a doofus lifetime loser HC, the same owner and his yes-man GM.

Good luck.

And as far as Jones, he's had 4 years of coaching from Eli's college coach and was supposed to be the most NFL-ready of the qb's. At this point he's competing with Mineshew who wasn't on anyone's radar. That should level out some of the expectations. it won't, but it should.

In comment 14617067 SteelGiant said:

Quote:

I thought every person who didn't want Bark wanted a QB. ding. A lot of the rebuild decisions have been good ones.

There were a bunch of people who said drafting a RB at #2 in the first year of a rebuild is stupid because by the time the team is good, the guy will be commanding a huge salary and RBs generally have only a few years when they are at their peak.

So, in other words, you don't spend such a high pick on a RB unless he is the guy who puts you over the top.Picking a RB at #2 is basically a win-now move, which is at odds with a rebuild.

ALL (or most) of the youngsters of the past 2 drafts progress to solid or better, then we're a year or two away from being mediocre. counting on all of them is an iffy proposition.

The FA part of the equation has been more miss than hit, so counting on a big infusion of FA talent next year is an iffy proposition.

So far, this is a slow boat to China kind of rebuild.

And, I think counting on this coaching staff is an iffy proposition.

In comment 14617408 fkap said:

Quote:

ALL (or most) of the youngsters of the past 2 drafts progress to solid or better, then we're a year or two away from being mediocre. counting on all of them is an iffy proposition. The FA part of the equation has been more miss than hit, so counting on a big infusion of FA talent next year is an iffy proposition. So far, this is a slow boat to China kind of rebuild. And, I think counting on this coaching staff is an iffy proposition.

Agreed fkap...

Part of what is slowing this rebuild down is the insistence every year, that this will be the year we can compete (compete for what I'm not sure, maybe a 9-7 record?). This affect the way the team approaches FA and the draft. Rather than just committing to the rebuild. I've said it before, the Giants had over 90 million cap space available in 2020 at one point. Ok a little over 10 went to rookies. The other 20 went to Tate and Bethea, and I am not sure what else, but it surely isn't 20 million in value. That 20 million basically went poof as far as I am concerned.

And this notion that we have a lot of FA money to spend next year really needs to go poof itself. We have a league average amount of money to spend, and we have an absolutely crap roster. The more I look at it, the more I realize that the Giants are not digging themselves out of this hole soon. Not the way they are doing it.

In comment 14617447 .McL. said:

Quote:

In comment 14617408 fkap said: Quote: ALL (or most) of the youngsters of the past 2 drafts progress to solid or better, then we're a year or two away from being mediocre. counting on all of them is an iffy proposition. The FA part of the equation has been more miss than hit, so counting on a big infusion of FA talent next year is an iffy proposition. So far, this is a slow boat to China kind of rebuild. And, I think counting on this coaching staff is an iffy proposition. Agreed fkap... Part of what is slowing this rebuild down is the insistence every year, that this will be the year we can compete (compete for what I'm not sure, maybe a 9-7 record?). This affect the way the team approaches FA and the draft. Rather than just committing to the rebuild. I've said it before, the Giants had over 90 million cap space available in 2020 at one point. Ok a little over 10 went to rookies. The other 20 went to Tate and Bethea, and I am not sure what else, but it surely isn't 20 million in value. That 20 million basically went poof as far as I am concerned. And this notion that we have a lot of FA money to spend next year really needs to go poof itself. We have a league average amount of money to spend, and we have an absolutely crap roster. The more I look at it, the more I realize that the Giants are not digging themselves out of this hole soon. Not the way they are doing it.

$16M is dead money on Beckham.

In comment 14617450 Mike in Boston said:

Quote:

In comment 14617447 .McL. said: Quote: In comment 14617408 fkap said: Quote: ALL (or most) of the youngsters of the past 2 drafts progress to solid or better, then we're a year or two away from being mediocre. counting on all of them is an iffy proposition. The FA part of the equation has been more miss than hit, so counting on a big infusion of FA talent next year is an iffy proposition. So far, this is a slow boat to China kind of rebuild. And, I think counting on this coaching staff is an iffy proposition. Agreed fkap... Part of what is slowing this rebuild down is the insistence every year, that this will be the year we can compete (compete for what I'm not sure, maybe a 9-7 record?). This affect the way the team approaches FA and the draft. Rather than just committing to the rebuild. I've said it before, the Giants had over 90 million cap space available in 2020 at one point. Ok a little over 10 went to rookies. The other 20 went to Tate and Bethea, and I am not sure what else, but it surely isn't 20 million in value. That 20 million basically went poof as far as I am concerned. And this notion that we have a lot of FA money to spend next year really needs to go poof itself. We have a league average amount of money to spend, and we have an absolutely crap roster. The more I look at it, the more I realize that the Giants are not digging themselves out of this hole soon. Not the way they are doing it. $16M is dead money on Beckham.

The 90M was AFTER we traded Beckham, during FA but before the Giants signed anybody...

not in 2020

scroll down to the dead cap section...

https://www.spotrac.com/nfl/new-york-giants/cap/2020

.

... We are one draft away from competing.

In comment 14617138 SteelGiant said:

Quote:

In comment 14617103 ron mexico said: Quote: In comment 14617067 SteelGiant said: Quote: I thought every person who didn't want Bark wanted a QB. I'm ok with Daniel Jones, I like him, kind of makes the Barkley pick a non issue I think. I guess the only fans left angry would have taken a QB then Josh Allen in this years draft. The only issue with that reasoning is you cant say that Barkley is not amazing enough to possibly take pressure off a young QB. Anyway, I'm confused. Am I really that off base that I am ok how things are going and I think they are headed in the right direction? The past is the past. We had to rebuild. I understand not being a fan of Gettlemans FA pick ups but some of them I think were to appease the owners that we were trying to win now at the same time rebuilding. A lot of the rebuild decisions have been good ones. look at what the Colts did in that draft and think of what could have been So what could have been? I dont look at the Colts they are some kind of Juggernaut. I get that they just held the Chiefs to 13 but they are only one week removed from giving up 31 to the Raiders. You honestly would have passed on Barkley and would have handed the franchise to a 26 year old Brisett? I will give you they look better this year but I have no issue with where out team is headed. Feel free to become a Colts fan, I wont stop you. We are young and talented, one more draft and lots of money to spend. Give DJ a year under his belt.

This "one more draft" bullcrap again. Why weren't you "one more draft" in 2013

In comment 14617577 Big_N said:

Quote:

This "one more draft" bullcrap again. Why weren't you "one more draft" in 2013

I thought you we were focused on your photography?

Bethea didn't cost much, but that's matched by not being worth much. He'll only cost 125K to jettison at the end of the year.

the defenders of the DG rebuild will point to the cost of this type contract as being no big deal/need stop gaps/etc. The flip side is that most of these type players have not been helpful to the team or the rebuild.

Tate, on the other hand, is not cheap. Remains to be seen if he'll be a quality part of the rebuild. Being under increased scrutiny for juicing is likely to hurt his game.

In comment 14617627 fkap said:

Quote:

Bethea didn't cost much, but that's matched by not being worth much. He'll only cost 125K to jettison at the end of the year. the defenders of the DG rebuild will point to the cost of this type contract as being no big deal/need stop gaps/etc. The flip side is that most of these type players have not been helpful to the team or the rebuild. Tate, on the other hand, is not cheap. Remains to be seen if he'll be a quality part of the rebuild. Being under increased scrutiny for juicing is likely to hurt his game.

Being really old and a highly inefficient player is also likely to hurt his game.

In comment 14617472 djm said:

Quote:

.

From what?

4-12, 6-10 at best��

Route 9�: 7/19/2019 2:05 pm :�link

This team sucks.

Dallas and Philly are solid, so no way they stand a chance competing with them. Depth chart is laughable.�

In comment 14617627 fkap said:

Quote:

Bethea didn't cost much, but that's matched by not being worth much. He'll only cost 125K to jettison at the end of the year. the defenders of the DG rebuild will point to the cost of this type contract as being no big deal/need stop gaps/etc. The flip side is that most of these type players have not been helpful to the team or the rebuild. Tate, on the other hand, is not cheap. Remains to be seen if he'll be a quality part of the rebuild. Being under increased scrutiny for juicing is likely to hurt his game.

Granted Bethea can be cut and it will cost between 125K and 400K depending on when he is cut due to roster and workout bonuses.

But as of right now he and Tate are counting a little over 13M against next year's cap (if they are on the team). Plush the Solder restructure count for 18+M of the 20M that went poof. The other 2+M who knows, maybe signing bottom of the roster guys.

away from competing means 2 years.

Rookies have a tough time being instant contributors. Unless you are cant miss players like Barkley or Quenton Nelson.

You need them to go through an entire season to develop.


It's more accurate to say:

the NYG are probably a defensive scheme + 5 defensive (above replacement) starters away from being a top 16 defense. On offense they are 2 OTs away from being a top 10 offense.

Can you draft or sign 7 impact starters in 1 year?

In comment 14618040 huygens20 said:

Quote:

away from competing means 2 years. Rookies have a tough time being instant contributors. Unless you are cant miss players like Barkley or Quenton Nelson. You need them to go through an entire season to develop. It's more accurate to say: the NYG are probably a defensive scheme + 5 defensive (above replacement) starters away from being a top 16 defense. On offense they are 2 OTs away from being a top 10 offense. Can you draft or sign 7 impact starters in 1 year?

I would add to your set of needs a bit
As Starters:
1 FS
3 or 4 LBs (depending on scheme)
1 or 0 DL (depending on scheme at least 1 of the LBs or this DL needs to be a very good ER)
1 or 2 CBs (A slot CB, and a replacement for JJ)

That's 6 or 7 starters on D

On offense its
2 OT
1 C
1 #1 WR

There may be players on the team that will grow into some of these roles, but I don't think you can count on that.

As we can see what has happened at RB and LB, the Giants need better depth as well.

Right now 9th worst in passing yards per game, 9th worst in rushing yards given up per game, and 9th worst in points allowed per game.

But It's not so hopeless if you break it down. Out of this crop of newcomers, is it reasonable that Lawrence, X-Man, Peppers and one of our drafted corners will be solid starters next year, if not stars? Peppers really flashed on Sunday.

To these four, add three of six current players on the roster as potential solid starters Carter, Ryan Connelly, Ogletree, Tomlinson, B.J. Hill and JackRabbit.

That's seven starters. Use a premium draft pick to collect an eight starter.

Then there is free agency to grab two more hopefully star quality players. The money will be there to spend, but there is always controversy about overpaying that may prevent us from landing the right free agents.

But following this blueprint we will have seven or eight solid starters on defense before free agency, which we must hope will net us a couple of stars.

In comment 14617388 rocco8112 said:

Quote:

looks like a player, Barkley is good and Lawrence looks good too. Team still sucks though, last year they were 1 - 4 after five weeks when a Panther hit a 63 yarder. This year would be 1 - 4 too, but the Buc kicker shanked a chip shot a few weeks ago.

That is a really good point. Ironic that the reason we are an "improved" 2-3 this year vs. 1-4 at this point last year is because some guy hit a 63 yarder at the end of regulation in 2018 while another guy shanked a 34 yarder at the end of regulation in 2019. That is literally the difference between this year being a "progression" as opposed to a "regression" lol.

They won't be 8-8 unless they improve dramatically. Here's the remaining schedule. It's brutal.

Thinking 6-10 is a possibility.

@ Pats - L
Cards - W
@Lions - L
Cowboys - L
@Jets - W
@Bears - L
Packers - L
@Eagles - L
Dolphins - W
@Redskins - W
Eagles - L


In comment 14617356 Mike in Boston said:

Quote:

Don't be ridiculous. And while the 2017 team was 3-13, it was pretty much the same roster that went 11-5 in 2016. The coach lost them. If DG decided to have a fire sale on talent as a result, rather than just get a coach that could handle the talent, it was his responsibility to replace it quickly. I'm willing to spot last year, and I can appreciate that he seems to have drafted very well. But his decisions with veterans have generally been putrid. And I can make some allowance for a rookie QB who seems talented but will have some growing pains. So I can accept, perhaps 8-8. But another losing season should have him, Shurmur and Bettcher out of work.

In comment 14618078 Rong5611 said:

Quote:

They won't be 8-8 unless they improve dramatically. Here's the remaining schedule. It's brutal. Thinking 6-10 is a possibility. @ Pats - L Cards - W @Lions - L Cowboys - L @Jets - W @Bears - L Packers - L @Eagles - L Dolphins - W @Redskins - W Eagles - L In comment 14617356 Mike in Boston said: Quote: Don't be ridiculous. And while the 2017 team was 3-13, it was pretty much the same roster that went 11-5 in 2016. The coach lost them. If DG decided to have a fire sale on talent as a result, rather than just get a coach that could handle the talent, it was his responsibility to replace it quickly. I'm willing to spot last year, and I can appreciate that he seems to have drafted very well. But his decisions with veterans have generally been putrid. And I can make some allowance for a rookie QB who seems talented but will have some growing pains. So I can accept, perhaps 8-8. But another losing season should have him, Shurmur and Bettcher out of work.

Sounds right. Shurmur never coached a team in the league in his 6 years as a coach that ever won more than 6 games, so why should this year be any different. Or the year after actually.

couldn't have coached the Giants to an 8-8 record the last two seasons. The lack of talent on the Giants the last two years is noticeable.

Blaming Shurmer for the sins of a failing organization is lazy.

Every team operate under the same cap space. Every team has a few high;y paid players. every team has to manage a roster of 50 other players.

It's impossible for a team to have pro bowlers at every position. So what does it all come down to? Well in the NFL it is coaching and making mediocre players better and getting them ready to play. That is the reason some coaches show up on losing teams and they make the playoffs the following year. Other times it is just a matter of who is playing better at that time.

When the Pats don't pay their star QB the going rate b/c they pad his wallet with certain under the table "perks" - that's some BS.

Plus, it's one of only a few teams that proven vets will go to for let money to win a ring - ie. Chris Long.

These are facts.

In comment 14618875 Dnew15 said:

Quote:

When the Pats don't pay their star QB the going rate b/c they pad his wallet with certain under the table "perks" - that's some BS. Plus, it's one of only a few teams that proven vets will go to for let money to win a ring - ie. Chris Long. These are facts.

What is the going rate for as a "star" QB that is 40+ years old now

Eli getting his contract "re-negotiated" so they can free up cap space. So that is a wash. It all boils down to coaching + talent. It's about a 50/50 split. If not a 70/30 coach to talent split.

QB and the da goat?

Probably more than what he's getting right now.

Against the cap? He's ranked 11th in 2019. In 2018 he was 19th. in 2017 he was 18th....

Pretty sure every NFL team would sign on for Brady at those cap hits....