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I am frustrated--6 of the last 7 years have been basically

Essex : 10/8/2019 11:21 am
wasted football seasons. In each season besides 2016, we were for all intent and purposes out of it by Halloween to mid November. This season is shaping up to the be the same way and after a while it just gets really frustrating. It is one thing to not make the playoffs, it is quite another to be non competitive basically for mid-November and December.

2013- 2-6 by Halloween
2014--3-5 by Nov 3 (that went all the way to 3-8)
2015-- 4-4 on November 1 (in fairness we really tanked in December that year)
2016-comeptitve (but very boring to watch--although I would take that over the other crap).
2017-1-7 by November 5
2018--2-7 by November 12
2019-2-3 most likely going to be 2-4 and its hard to see how we win without Shepard, Engram, and Barkley

I remember Wellington Mara used to say that a successful season is that the team was still in it for the last home game. By that barometer we have been an utter failure for 6 of 7 years.

Sorry just needed to rant because the ineptitude is becoming so frustrating.
I have become so numb to losing  
Jints in Carolina : 10/8/2019 11:22 am : link
I actually wait for bad things to happen.
Eh, this season feels different.  
SFGFNCGiantsFan : 10/8/2019 11:23 am : link
We got a rookie QB who has, thus far, looked like he might be the real deal.
I think this season can still be salvaged  
ron mexico : 10/8/2019 11:24 am : link
Thursday will likely be a low point that we can climb back up from.

We should be able to beat Zona and have a chance against the lions, maybe, havent seen them play.

There is still hope that we can get healthy on O and play competitive games in the 2nd half.
RE: I think this season can still be salvaged  
Essex : 10/8/2019 11:29 am : link
In comment 14618618 ron mexico said:
Quote:
Thursday will likely be a low point that we can climb back up from.

We should be able to beat Zona and have a chance against the lions, maybe, havent seen them play.

There is still hope that we can get healthy on O and play competitive games in the 2nd half.

it might, but a sprained MCL is usually a 2-4 week injury, so the chances of getting Engram back for Arizona are slim. I doubt Shep is back for that game. ANd this, of course, is on top of the horrific (even if somewhat improving) defense.

I was looking forward to Jones playing as well, but we are not going to get to enjoy him as he is going to get battered without anyone who can get real separation or catch a ball and with the Oline. It just feels like another lost season. Again, I am probably being overly dramatic today, but I am really upset by all this news.
FFS  
allstarjim : 10/8/2019 11:37 am : link
This team just found a franchise QB. Know how hard that is? This should be a year of celebration.

Better times ahead for Giants' fans. Hell, even conceding a loss before the game is even played. If this defense can get after Tom Brady, perhaps we can force a couple of turnovers and change the game. The challenge will be stopping the run.
I agree with SFGFNCGiantsFan  
Drewcon40 : 10/8/2019 11:37 am : link
this season - for the first time in a long time, I am relaxed watching Giants games. I think my expectations aligned with the (perceived) goals of the front office. With that, I would be disappointed

Logically, this is year 2 of the Gettleman rebuild. I wanted to believe in the latest version of Eli and that we had a playoff team (last year).

The only game I am immaturely concerned with is the Jets game - those who know my history know I have an unehealthy obsession with beating those guys.
RE: FFS  
Essex : 10/8/2019 11:40 am : link
In comment 14618644 allstarjim said:
Quote:
This team just found a franchise QB. Know how hard that is? This should be a year of celebration.

Better times ahead for Giants' fans. Hell, even conceding a loss before the game is even played. If this defense can get after Tom Brady, perhaps we can force a couple of turnovers and change the game. The challenge will be stopping the run.

Nobody has been more bullish than me on DJ, check any post in which I said anything negative about him. My hopes for him are through the roof but to say we "found" a franchise qb is just silly at this moment. We think we have identified a franchise qb, it will be a long time before we know we found one!
Yeah I agree it's almost fun again to watch.....  
BillKo : 10/8/2019 11:41 am : link
..because we maybe have the QB who is going to lead up the next 10-12 years. And, as he gets better and we add pieces, things are going to get better.

This is Gettleman's second year, he really can't concern himself with what happend the previous 5-6 years to be honest. He has to build it his way and that may take a couple years.

It has been very frustrating and patience  
Simms11 : 10/8/2019 11:44 am : link
wears thin after so many years of ineptitude. Reese and Ross were fired for that very reason. I'm a little optimistic right now due to the last two drafts and the fact that it appears we have a QB. I think another side off-season and we could potentially be back in the playoffs. Of course there's never a guarantee, but I feel like we're finally headed in the right direction talent-wise. I'm not so sure Shurmur and company will still be here however.
RE: RE: FFS  
allstarjim : 10/8/2019 11:44 am : link
In comment 14618651 Essex said:
Quote:
In comment 14618644 allstarjim said:


Quote:


This team just found a franchise QB. Know how hard that is? This should be a year of celebration.

Better times ahead for Giants' fans. Hell, even conceding a loss before the game is even played. If this defense can get after Tom Brady, perhaps we can force a couple of turnovers and change the game. The challenge will be stopping the run.


Nobody has been more bullish than me on DJ, check any post in which I said anything negative about him. My hopes for him are through the roof but to say we "found" a franchise qb is just silly at this moment. We think we have identified a franchise qb, it will be a long time before we know we found one!


That's fine, he's already shown enough for me. And I'm a skeptic and was skeptical of Jones. I thought he played well on Sunday, he was just a little snake bit by drops. But you can see the way he competes, moves around when there's pressure, and makes plays with his legs. I think he has what it takes.
I know its being pessimistic, but what do you mean by salvaged?  
Dinger : 10/8/2019 11:44 am : link
If you look at the schedule you have maybe 4 wins in there if they get healthy. So 6 wins is an improvement but its a Pat Shurmur improvment. I don't have any confidence in the coach and his staff and I am losing confidence in Gettleman. I like his emphasis on the lines and on character, but his FA acquisitions have not panned out and I'm worried that the drafts aren't showing anything beyond the second round. Its early for Gettleman, but I feel like this is as good as Shurmur gets. He needs, as many on here like to say about Eli, a great supporting cast to even be average.
he's our franchise QB though  
UConn4523 : 10/8/2019 11:46 am : link
you may not be confident in that but the Giants are and they can finally build on that moving forward. No more hoping to get a great pick to spend on a QB. No more wondering what Eli's got left. No more half measures at QB to worry about. Jones is 100% our franchise QB.
RE: RE: RE: FFS  
Essex : 10/8/2019 11:50 am : link
In comment 14618665 allstarjim said:
Quote:
In comment 14618651 Essex said:


Quote:


In comment 14618644 allstarjim said:


Quote:


This team just found a franchise QB. Know how hard that is? This should be a year of celebration.

Better times ahead for Giants' fans. Hell, even conceding a loss before the game is even played. If this defense can get after Tom Brady, perhaps we can force a couple of turnovers and change the game. The challenge will be stopping the run.


Nobody has been more bullish than me on DJ, check any post in which I said anything negative about him. My hopes for him are through the roof but to say we "found" a franchise qb is just silly at this moment. We think we have identified a franchise qb, it will be a long time before we know we found one!



That's fine, he's already shown enough for me. And I'm a skeptic and was skeptical of Jones. I thought he played well on Sunday, he was just a little snake bit by drops. But you can see the way he competes, moves around when there's pressure, and makes plays with his legs. I think he has what it takes.

so do I, I love DJ. I also think the next few weeks even if we play Zona will be really tough for him because he won't probably do well with the talent surrounding him. Not that it matters much in terms of our long term future, but he really is going into it without much help--which will be hard for any rookie no matter the talent level.
by salvaged I mean playing competitive, entertaining and hopefully  
ron mexico : 10/8/2019 11:50 am : link
meaningful games the rest of the way.

I think that its quite possible that this two game stretch will be rock bottom for the team, and they will play better after.

Beat zona and get to 3-4
beat the lions and we are back to 500

maybe we can upset dallas

we should be able to beat the jets

maybe we can split with philly

If we can hover around 500 I think that is salvaging the season.
DJ is the only bright spot  
GiantEgo : 10/8/2019 11:53 am : link
I have no faith the GM/Coaching staff can pull this together. Probably only a matter of time before Solder gets Dj seriously injured. The line is still far from competing they need two tackles and a center.
Agree that Jones is the only bright spot.  
Dave in Hoboken : 10/8/2019 11:55 am : link
The rest of the team needs to stay healthy for more than a game or two. Jesus Christ.
my thought  
BillyM : 10/8/2019 11:55 am : link
yes, the losing has grown old, I totally get it. To that though, I'd rather rebuild the right way, through the draft, then have a one hit wonder spending spree like we had a few years ago, which yielded a first round exit, followed by crap in the years thereafter.

Let's do this right, stay patient. In doing so, it can line up a string of playoff appearances, not just one year. Hopefully starting next year, and building for a nice long run.

It's a poorly run organization  
Go Terps : 10/8/2019 11:58 am : link
It's been characterized by reactive policies and outdated thinking. Some moves have been good, like drafting Jones and offloading the malcontents. But it remains an extremely poorly coached team with an archaic front office structure plagued by too many voices.

If I could talk to Mara I would plead with him to bring in an outside consultant to analyze how the Giants are being run in comparison to accepted best practices around the league.

I like Mara and believe he wants to win, but he's lost in the wilderness right now.
I agree Terps  
ron mexico : 10/8/2019 12:00 pm : link
if they wont bring in an outsider, just make Chris Mara GM so he can't continue to hide behind the scenes
I don't think there's much chance for the playoffs this season.  
Ira : 10/8/2019 12:00 pm : link
What I'm pleased with is that we're finally building a nucleus of talent young players for the future.
Get to  
joeinpa : 10/8/2019 12:01 pm : link
5-5.
After NE  
George from PA : 10/8/2019 12:02 pm : link
We have Arz., Mia, Wash. and the Jets.....all winnable. 6-4

And Chicago, GB, 2 Phil, Dal and Det.

That look bad right now....but you never know....figure out how to split those.....gets them to 9-7...
I think Mara got shellshocked with Eli  
UConn4523 : 10/8/2019 12:04 pm : link
he couldn't let go, couldn't imagine moving on especially with the heavy commitment attached to him financially. That's really stalled the rebuild and I think its clouded the perception on what we have in management.

I can't prove it but I think DG knew this and did his best to work around it. It was a losing battle even after drafting Jones and keeping Eli. The Giants FO is really hard to judge right now. If that outside consultant came in, who's to say Mara would even listen (if this happened in year prior with Eli still in the plans)?
RE: It's a poorly run organization  
Lines of Scrimmage : 10/8/2019 12:08 pm : link
In comment 14618693 Go Terps said:
Quote:
It's been characterized by reactive policies and outdated thinking. Some moves have been good, like drafting Jones and offloading the malcontents. But it remains an extremely poorly coached team with an archaic front office structure plagued by too many voices.

If I could talk to Mara I would plead with him to bring in an outside consultant to analyze how the Giants are being run in comparison to accepted best practices around the league.

I like Mara and believe he wants to win, but he's lost in the wilderness right now.


Fair points but things to consider. Giants have been a strong organization since 1980. Certainly some weak spots but overall their success is in the top tier of the league. Yes, more consistent franchises in terms of playoffs but 5 SB's with 4 wins is nothing to scoff at.

Many opinions as to what happened post 2012 and I have shared my thoughts. Ultimately, it always seems to come back to the same thing. Poor drafting for many years.

They have two solid drafts and potential franchise QB. If they put another one together....good things to come imo.

Outside consultants.....seems like a lot of times they cause more issues. I think a coaching change is coming soon though and am nervous about that choice so perhaps someone can assist with that.
So am I  
PaulN : 10/8/2019 12:09 pm : link
This organization can not turn this around in an era where fast turn arounds are all over. Shepherd and the great Evan Engram injured again, if he can stay heathy crap about Engram must end, another horrible Reese first round pick. They ignore the linebacker position so long that adding 3rd round picks is enough to many, it isn't nearly enugh, but when you take up first round picks with QB's, running backs, and wide recievers because you have to, this will continue to be a shitshow. Gettlemans use of free agency has been criminal, Reese's drafts were criminal, so here we are. One guy sucked at setting up the future, the other sucks at filing in todays needs.
Difference is, until now we were watching the end  
exiled : 10/8/2019 12:12 pm : link
of an era. Now weíre watching the beginning of an era. I know weíre seeing the same challenges and similar outcomes, but it has a different feel. I mean, if Eli played last Sunday with precisely the same results, his performance wouldíve been panned. With Jones, it just reflects growing pains (and terrible pass protection).

You donít feel that, Essex? The optimism?
wrong time for the thread imo  
hitdog42 : 10/8/2019 12:16 pm : link
with Jones, there is now hope.... even if its a bit ways out.
watching giants games was impossible until week 3- now its cant miss TV because you can project a future with improvement.
Smells an awful lot  
George : 10/8/2019 12:18 pm : link
like the 1970s.

Boy, did that suck.
RE: It's a poorly run organization  
allstarjim : 10/8/2019 12:20 pm : link
In comment 14618693 Go Terps said:
Quote:
It's been characterized by reactive policies and outdated thinking. Some moves have been good, like drafting Jones and offloading the malcontents. But it remains an extremely poorly coached team with an archaic front office structure plagued by too many voices.

If I could talk to Mara I would plead with him to bring in an outside consultant to analyze how the Giants are being run in comparison to accepted best practices around the league.

I like Mara and believe he wants to win, but he's lost in the wilderness right now.


Yeah ok.

You're still upset they didn't draft Lamar Jackson, and that's it.

I'm sure the forward thinking Ravens are quickly going to win Super Bowls because of a guy who profiles to Mike Vick, but with less arm talent.

Shurmur's installed an offense that is competent, we have a QB that is an actual QB, and a GM that is focusing on the trenches.

It seems to me they are doing well, and ahead of where they should be if any of what you said is true.
Not for me, its different now -We are in build up mode now  
PatersonPlank : 10/8/2019 12:21 pm : link
We have had 2 strong drafts and are playing all the youngsters. We also have some young FA's (like Peppers) and are playing them. In addition we seem to have found our future QB, and he's playing.

All this means to me we are in growth mode, and every game our kids get more experience. Every game, even losses, and going in the plus column for me.

In the past we ha the veterans out there with limited futures, so it was more a win now plan. When we lose in that plan it does feel hopeless.
Feel you  
Simms : 10/8/2019 12:28 pm : link
But I reflect on past seasons, or other teams like the Lions or Browns. Close but no bling.

Have to tip my hat to teams who contend yearvin year out.
RE: I agree Terps  
BillKo : 10/8/2019 12:28 pm : link
In comment 14618695 ron mexico said:
Quote:
if they wont bring in an outsider, just make Chris Mara GM so he can't continue to hide behind the scenes


Do we really believe he has a say? I mean, to me, this is a guy that sits in an office with a title and collects a big paycheck........
RE: Feel you  
allstarjim : 10/8/2019 12:31 pm : link
In comment 14618752 Simms said:
Quote:
But I reflect on past seasons, or other teams like the Lions or Browns. Close but no bling.

Have to tip my hat to teams who contend yearvin year out.


That very well could be the Giants if Gettleman continues to focus on the trenches and Danny Dimes is the real deal.
RE: I think Mara got shellshocked with Eli  
Zeke's Alibi : 10/8/2019 12:32 pm : link
In comment 14618704 UConn4523 said:
Quote:
he couldn't let go, couldn't imagine moving on especially with the heavy commitment attached to him financially. That's really stalled the rebuild and I think its clouded the perception on what we have in management.

I can't prove it but I think DG knew this and did his best to work around it. It was a losing battle even after drafting Jones and keeping Eli. The Giants FO is really hard to judge right now. If that outside consultant came in, who's to say Mara would even listen (if this happened in year prior with Eli still in the plans)?


I agree with this, and the Solder signing feels like it was done to appease Mara and ELi. Now that we have that in the rearview, 2020 needs to be the judgement year. No playoffs and its time to clean house again. I see people comparing our rebuild to some other teams and they forget all teams don't start at the same spot. Talent bereft, big contracts, and an aging QB is an impossible spot to be in. Do you think the Dolphins fans are going to be pissed if they aren't good next year? Of course not, they understand its a 3 year rebuild.
RE: RE: I agree Terps  
ron mexico : 10/8/2019 12:35 pm : link
In comment 14618753 BillKo said:
Quote:
In comment 14618695 ron mexico said:


Quote:


if they wont bring in an outsider, just make Chris Mara GM so he can't continue to hide behind the scenes



Do we really believe he has a say? I mean, to me, this is a guy that sits in an office with a title and collects a big paycheck........


I think he has a say but have no idea. Only time you hear him speak is when he talks about his race horses. Iím pretty confident that if he does have input, that input carries more weight than other VPs in the FO
the Dolphins and Skins  
UConn4523 : 10/8/2019 12:39 pm : link
and whoever else also haven't been in constant flux over what to do with their aging but legacy rich QB. Maybe other owners sack up and rip the band aid off faster, but those ones sure didn't. The only one who kind of did was Baltimore with Flacco, but they didn't have the blunder of awful drafts that we have had so even that's hard to compare apples to apples.

In the end, there's a lot of time and energy being wasted on the past. I get that's sports but I can't imagine constantly thinking about what could have been. I'm looking forward to the future.
Weíre in year 2 of a rebuild.  
BillT : 10/8/2019 12:42 pm : link
Thatís the only way to look at it. The other 5 years are water under the bridge. If we arenít obviously on the right track next year tell us about it then. Complaining about the ďlast 7 yearsĒ is pointless.
RE: the Dolphins and Skins  
Go Terps : 10/8/2019 12:44 pm : link
In comment 14618766 UConn4523 said:
Quote:
and whoever else also haven't been in constant flux over what to do with their aging but legacy rich QB. Maybe other owners sack up and rip the band aid off faster, but those ones sure didn't. The only one who kind of did was Baltimore with Flacco, but they didn't have the blunder of awful drafts that we have had so even that's hard to compare apples to apples.

In the end, there's a lot of time and energy being wasted on the past. I get that's sports but I can't imagine constantly thinking about what could have been. I'm looking forward to the future.


The problem is the future is being dictated by people who are repeating past mistakes.
ehh  
UConn4523 : 10/8/2019 12:45 pm : link
outside of Shurmur and his coaching decisions I don't know how you can come to that conclusion.

My entire outlook is based on the premise that our FO was handcuffed by Mara. We'll see if that's the case with Eli gone.
RE: Difference is, until now we were watching the end  
Dinger : 10/8/2019 12:54 pm : link
In comment 14618712 exiled said:
Quote:
of an era. Now weíre watching the beginning of an era. I know weíre seeing the same challenges and similar outcomes, but it has a different feel. I mean, if Eli played last Sunday with precisely the same results, his performance wouldíve been panned. With Jones, it just reflects growing pains (and terrible pass protection).

You donít feel that, Essex? The optimism?


I can't speak for Essex, but I am more relieved than optimistic. Having who appears to be a keeper at QB is a great step forward. But after SB46 we had a great QB. we proceeded to draft poorly and/or not develop players we did draft and maybe had one or two decent teams. I have to agree that I'm worried that its deeper than just a GM or coaching change. I don't know Chris Mara's role as VP of player personnel and I am not sure where these two fit in:
Director of Player Personnnel: Mark Koncz
Director of Pro Personnel: Ken Sternfeld
But we don't seem to be developing prospects well and we don't seem to know the FA market well. I also think it has to do with the coaches developing players and creating a game play that works best with those players. I doesn't seem like most of our players are as well 'prepare' or 'coached' as other teams at our level(DJ seemingly the exception).

So I guess I have hope that we can build around this QB better than we did around the last one, just not seeing it yet.
Coaching is still a big problem  
RollBlue : 10/8/2019 12:56 pm : link
and has been for the last 7-8 years. Until they get a good coaching staff, hard to expect any championships. If Jones is the real deal, they can be similar to the Cowboys - maybe win the division a few times and a playoff game or two. Need to hit on a good coach like Reich or McVay.
So I would love to have a Cinderella season BUT ....  
MotownGIANTS : 10/8/2019 1:00 pm : link
picture getting the kids some experience and the OL &DL showing promise by the end of the season is more important in the long run. To bad Connelly cant get more experience this year.

1 WR (tier 1), 2 FS (Tier 1/2){FA and draft}, 2 OT (tier 1 & 2), at least 2 LBs (tier 1 and 2) {FA & draft} and 1 CB (tier 2)and 1 C (tier 1)

I feel a bit better this season  
islander1 : 10/8/2019 1:01 pm : link
solely because we're finally drafting well again. Two more drafts like this and we'll be in the playoffs again.

Gettleman is striking out in FA but he's really nailing the drafts. That's a compromise I'll make.
The next two years hinge on one thing -  
bw in dc : 10/8/2019 1:06 pm : link
the development of Jones. Hopefully, we should know be the end of 2020 if he's a hit or a miss.

Unfortunately, the challenge underneath that is do we have the right person - Gettleman - to build a team around him to optimize his success and do we have the right coach - Shurmur - to groom him.

Let's be honest, when you are barely the third best organization in your division, you have to be realistic with expectations to win.

There are too many voices  
Go Terps : 10/8/2019 1:24 pm : link
Too many people with different agendas and on different timelines that with in on critical decisions. Gettleman told Mike Francesa that he contacted Ernie Accorsi to talk about the quarterback situation. And we've also heard that Shurmur convinced Gettleman to give Beckham a contract. And who was front and center at Duke's pro day to watch Daniel Jones? Chris Mara.

So this is the list of people we know have a say in critical personnel decisions:

John Mara
Steve Tisch
Chris Mara
Dave Gettleman
Kevin Abrams
Pat Shurmur
Ernie Accorsi

That's seven different agendas with seven different perspectives, and the result has been at least two very public instances where we changed horses midstream (Beckham and Eli). Who knows what indecision has been created in the building that hasn't been made public?
Also, a word on Jones  
Go Terps : 10/8/2019 1:27 pm : link
I like Jones and have high hopes for him. However, the point of the game is not to develop a quarterback. It's to win games.

Shurmur's directive is (or at least should be) to lead this team to as many wins as possible. If we go 5-11 this year Shurmur has failed at his job regardless of how Jones looks.
RE: Weíre in year 2 of a rebuild.  
RobCarpenter : 10/8/2019 1:30 pm : link
In comment 14618773 BillT said:
Quote:
Thatís the only way to look at it. The other 5 years are water under the bridge. If we arenít obviously on the right track next year tell us about it then. Complaining about the ďlast 7 yearsĒ is pointless.


This. Reeseís drafts put this team in a terrible spot and it takes time to come back from that. You canít miss year after year on top picks and expect to be competitive.

Itís a rebuilding year.

From some of these comments youíd think the Giants were the Redskins.
The frustration should have been no more than the..  
Racer : 10/8/2019 1:41 pm : link
...fact they wasted Eli's prime with some of the worst roster management decisions in NFL history, followed closely by the dark cloud we live under; it takes the form of the principle Owner's fatal family flaw of forgiveness and loyalty over performance.

That said, watching on game day to see who will be part of the next assault makes this the best season in awhile.
I still think..  
FatMan in Charlotte : 10/8/2019 1:49 pm : link
people overthink things because of the poor past 7 years.

We were not just bad, but atrocious at drafting during that time. It caused the roster to be barren at many spots, and the fix to that in 2016 was to throw money at FA's.

When you have a run like that where no draft picks remain for an extended period, you are going to have multiple holes and very few ways to fill them.

And I also think people merge the sins of Reese/Ross with the current FO. Reading this board makes it sound like Gettleman caused most of the issues and is making no good moves to fix the mess he was given. It is almost like the tone towards Gettleman is worse that the tone used for the guy who actually put us in this mess, and Gettleman is considered "backward thinking" and too tied to the organization.

It isn't rocket science why we are struggling. Injuries and horrific drafting stripped the roster of nearly all of the talent.
I don't see the optimism in direction for this organization  
giantsFC : 10/8/2019 1:51 pm : link
that many giants fans here see.

Jones looks OK so far.
Barkley is hurt...already.

The team has has terrible depth/talent/potential at WR, ILB, pass rushers, OT.

The secondary, which was a focus this off-season is't great so far.

There is A LOT to fix and a lot of confusion.

I hope there plan was a 3 year build.
It's not just a talent issue  
Go Terps : 10/8/2019 1:54 pm : link
On Sundays this team is badly coached. The games are poorly managed and they've done a terrible job of building the game plan around their best player.

While it's easy and comfortable to blame Reese for everything, that doesn't capture the whole issue.
To expect Shurmer to win games  
Dnew15 : 10/8/2019 1:59 pm : link
with any kind of regularity with the talent on this team is absurd.

They are deficient in so many areas that it's impossible for them to compete with over half the teams in the league. There's only so much game planning and in game decisions that can influence a game.

Blaming Shurmer for the Giants L's this year and last is lazy.
One thing I feel  
Carl in CT : 10/8/2019 2:00 pm : link
Is we not only have more injuries than most, we also donít get our players back on the field as fast as most. Iím not looking at one season but over the past 20 years. In the 80s our players played injured or not. Either our trainers have performed miserable or the medical care we give our injured players is subpar. I just canít understand how we carry draft picks who havenít practiced in two years. Something is drastically wrong here fellas. Maybe we are too loyal to these employees also.
for all the talk about how great the drafting supposedly has been  
Greg from LI : 10/8/2019 2:02 pm : link
They've drafted 9 players on defense in the past two years. Outside of Lawrence (a pick I loved, and by far my favorite of all of Gettleman's , and to a lesser extent Connelly briefly before he got hurt, none of of them have really shined thus far.

No, I'm not trying to judge a draft less than two seasons in, but there's a lot of exaggeration going on here.
There's..  
FatMan in Charlotte : 10/8/2019 2:03 pm : link
exaggeration because of how piss poor the previous drafts have been
I hope we keep losing, to be honest  
GeneInCal : 10/8/2019 2:15 pm : link
for better draft positioning. We're in a rebuild, no use wasting it with a 7-9 record, or God forbid, an 8-8 record.
I don't feel anything is "wasted."  
81_Great_Dane : 10/8/2019 2:31 pm : link
This is part of sports. Some seasons are good, some seasons are bad. Going through the losing makes the winning even sweeter.

It would be nice, though, if there were more good seasons and fewer bad seasons. We see the Steelers do it year after year. The Patriots. The Ravens are consistently in contention. The Seahawks haven't stunk for a long time. At some point you have to look at the Giants and ask: WTF is going on over there?
My frustration does not come from the fact that we may or may not  
Essex : 10/8/2019 2:38 pm : link
be heading in the right direction. I think it is too early to tell. Gettleman's drafts look promising but we will have to see how they pan out with a proper amount of time.

I guess my frustration derives from the fact that so much has gone wrong (wasting Eli, the Reese drafts, the poor on the field product) and many of the things that have gone right such as Barkley, Shepard, Connelly, Engram etc are now injured (some habitually like Engram and Shepard). Couple that with we are going to have a hard time evaluating the promising Jones because of these injuries. It is like getting a car that you think might be as good as a Corvette but told you can't go higher than second gear. it is just frustrating. I guess if Jones is lights out great and keeps improving without a supporting cast than we know he will be great. My guess, though, is that he will struggle and it will have little to do with him.

And even if we were to assume Jones was good, which I think is a good assumption, we do not know how good he is at this point. Is he Elite? Is he Romo or Matt Ryan good? Or maybe something like Dalton? I feel like the season has become a lost season because, even if we don't win which I expected, how much will we be able to evaluate from this mess on the offensive side of the ball with all these injures.

It is just frustrating.
RE: My frustration does not come from the fact that we may or may not  
RobCarpenter : 10/8/2019 2:44 pm : link
In comment 14618943 Essex said:
Quote:
be heading in the right direction. I think it is too early to tell. Gettleman's drafts look promising but we will have to see how they pan out with a proper amount of time.

I guess my frustration derives from the fact that so much has gone wrong (wasting Eli, the Reese drafts, the poor on the field product) and many of the things that have gone right such as Barkley, Shepard, Connelly, Engram etc are now injured (some habitually like Engram and Shepard). Couple that with we are going to have a hard time evaluating the promising Jones because of these injuries. It is like getting a car that you think might be as good as a Corvette but told you can't go higher than second gear. it is just frustrating. I guess if Jones is lights out great and keeps improving without a supporting cast than we know he will be great. My guess, though, is that he will struggle and it will have little to do with him.

And even if we were to assume Jones was good, which I think is a good assumption, we do not know how good he is at this point. Is he Elite? Is he Romo or Matt Ryan good? Or maybe something like Dalton? I feel like the season has become a lost season because, even if we don't win which I expected, how much will we be able to evaluate from this mess on the offensive side of the ball with all these injures.

It is just frustrating.


The injuries suck, and put a damper on things, but the season is not a lost season - mainly because Jones is getting game reps and we have some young pieces on defense that can improve.

And Barkley looks like he will be coming back in the near future.
RE: for all the talk about how great the drafting supposedly has been  
allstarjim : 10/8/2019 2:45 pm : link
In comment 14618881 Greg from LI said:
Quote:
They've drafted 9 players on defense in the past two years. Outside of Lawrence (a pick I loved, and by far my favorite of all of Gettleman's , and to a lesser extent Connelly briefly before he got hurt, none of of them have really shined thus far.

No, I'm not trying to judge a draft less than two seasons in, but there's a lot of exaggeration going on here.


I think this is unfair. BJ Hill is a good player. He might not be All-Pro, but he was a good pick and was a 3rd rounder. You want 3rd rounders to be starting caliber, and Hill is that.

Also Ximines, another 3rd rounder, looks like he's coming on as a pass rusher. It is way too early to judge this rookie class though, either way. 6 of those 9 guys are rookies, and they did get a good player in Hill last year, with Carter still a TBD, and McIntosh will probably wash out.

And we'll see with Beal, which would make 10 defensive picks.
The Patriots play in  
NikkiMac : 10/8/2019 2:47 pm : link
One of the easiest divisions AFCEast what a joke for the last 15 years or so

The Ravens have only had the Steelers to worry about

Now the NFC East has how many Super Bowls under their belt

I think overall the NFC East is the toughest division
I don't get what people see in Hill  
Greg from LI : 10/8/2019 3:01 pm : link
He had one big game against the Bears last year, but outside of that he's been average at best.
I think the decision on whether Shurmur stays as HC in 2020  
cosmicj : 10/8/2019 3:06 pm : link
Depends on Gettleman scouting the prospective HC ranks for individuals he thinks will become premier leaders. In fact, Iíd say thatís Gettlemanís most important job right now. If that guy is out there, they need to bring him in here as the new coach as soon as possible.

It doesnít matter what Shurmur does the rest of the season. The book on him is in: heís a competent NFL lifer. Heís actually done some nice work developing some of the young players, but there are also glaring problems which make it certain he wonít lead the team to its next trophy.

Thatís my way of saying that the next big step for the franchise isnít a new left tackle or free safety, but a very strong head coach. Just like with Parcells in his second season or when Coughlin arrived, that hire will completely change the mood of the franchise and the tone of the games.
RE: To expect Shurmer to win games  
bw in dc : 10/8/2019 3:08 pm : link
In comment 14618876 Dnew15 said:
Quote:
with any kind of regularity with the talent on this team is absurd.

They are deficient in so many areas that it's impossible for them to compete with over half the teams in the league. There's only so much game planning and in game decisions that can influence a game.

Blaming Shurmer for the Giants L's this year and last is lazy.


There is truth to this. So it needs to be factored.

On the other hand, there is an aspect of coaching where you need to be able to develop talent. While I think Shurmur knows, for example, where he wants to be offensively to fit onto today's game, I just don't view him as coach who has those skills to develop. And that's a huge piece of coaching - being able to take talent and mold and sculpt it.

Does anyone have any legitimate confidence that Bettcher can develop talent? That Hal Hunter can? That Shula can?

I guess these guys have their signature ideas and can implement their ideas on the field. But who really knows beyond that...

I'm starting to think this coaching staff across the board is at best a C.

And that's just not good enough...
The wave after wave of bad drafts  
lawguy9801 : 10/8/2019 3:09 pm : link
has really gutted the talent level on this team. It is going to take another couple of good drafts to make this a solid 10-plus win team.

And, not only do good drafts and solid management create a pool of talent, they help create a winning culture that, to some degree, perpetuates itself. As someone mentioned above, when was the last time the Patriots, Seahawks, Steelers, Packers, or Ravens were really a "bad" team, even with different players year after year?
Up until last year they had no talent  
Dnew15 : 10/8/2019 3:13 pm : link
to develop.

Next year if there aren't great strides - I'm with you.

But I think EE is better. I think that SS is better. I think that Slayton is better than the day the Giants drafted him. Lawerence seems to be getting better by the game. Connelly certainly seemed to be developing nicely.

They are finally drafting football players - not just athletes and its giving the coaching staff a fighting chance to start developing players.

RE: I think the decision on whether Shurmur stays as HC in 2020  
Go Terps : 10/8/2019 3:21 pm : link
In comment 14618995 cosmicj said:
Quote:
Depends on Gettleman scouting the prospective HC ranks for individuals he thinks will become premier leaders. In fact, Iíd say thatís Gettlemanís most important job right now. If that guy is out there, they need to bring him in here as the new coach as soon as possible.

It doesnít matter what Shurmur does the rest of the season. The book on him is in: heís a competent NFL lifer. Heís actually done some nice work developing some of the young players, but there are also glaring problems which make it certain he wonít lead the team to its next trophy.

Thatís my way of saying that the next big step for the franchise isnít a new left tackle or free safety, but a very strong head coach. Just like with Parcells in his second season or when Coughlin arrived, that hire will completely change the mood of the franchise and the tone of the games.


This is a great post. I'll add that there is a prevailing sentiment that the Giants have bottomed out and are now on the ascendancy, as if their fortunes follow a sine wave.

This is not so. Just because the team has been really bad for a few years doesn't mean it's now due to be good. Potential pitfalls are everywhere, and the biggest one is not the talent or lack thereof; it's the manner in which this team is managed and coached.

We've seen well coached, talent-poor teams. We know what that looks like. That is not what we're seeing with these Giants.

They are not well coached. As long as that continues it won't matter how much talent we accumulate.
RE: I think the decision on whether Shurmur stays as HC in 2020  
Jimmy Googs : 10/8/2019 3:39 pm : link
In comment 14618995 cosmicj said:
Quote:
Depends on Gettleman scouting the prospective HC ranks for individuals he thinks will become premier leaders. In fact, Iíd say thatís Gettlemanís most important job right now. If that guy is out there, they need to bring him in here as the new coach as soon as possible.

It doesnít matter what Shurmur does the rest of the season. The book on him is in: heís a competent NFL lifer. Heís actually done some nice work developing some of the young players, but there are also glaring problems which make it certain he wonít lead the team to its next trophy.

Thatís my way of saying that the next big step for the franchise isnít a new left tackle or free safety, but a very strong head coach. Just like with Parcells in his second season or when Coughlin arrived, that hire will completely change the mood of the franchise and the tone of the games.


strong post...
I guess I fail to see  
Dnew15 : 10/8/2019 3:58 pm : link
the glaring coaching mistakes that are so egregious that you can say definitively that he can't take a team to the next level.

What exactly are they?

It's not like the guy is punting on 3rd down or anything.
RE: I think the decision on whether Shurmur stays as HC in 2020  
ron mexico : 10/8/2019 4:01 pm : link
In comment 14618995 cosmicj said:
Quote:
Depends on Gettleman scouting the prospective HC ranks for individuals he thinks will become premier leaders. In fact, Iíd say thatís Gettlemanís most important job right now. If that guy is out there, they need to bring him in here as the new coach as soon as possible.

It doesnít matter what Shurmur does the rest of the season. The book on him is in: heís a competent NFL lifer. Heís actually done some nice work developing some of the young players, but there are also glaring problems which make it certain he wonít lead the team to its next trophy.

Thatís my way of saying that the next big step for the franchise isnít a new left tackle or free safety, but a very strong head coach. Just like with Parcells in his second season or when Coughlin arrived, that hire will completely change the mood of the franchise and the tone of the games.


Thats not how this org operates. They have to fire the current guy before targeting the new guy. I can just about guarantee no one in the org is looking for new HCs

RE: RE: for all the talk about how great the drafting supposedly has been  
Dinger : 10/8/2019 4:04 pm : link
In comment 14618958 allstarjim said:
Quote:
In comment 14618881 Greg from LI said:


Quote:


They've drafted 9 players on defense in the past two years. Outside of Lawrence (a pick I loved, and by far my favorite of all of Gettleman's , and to a lesser extent Connelly briefly before he got hurt, none of of them have really shined thus far.

No, I'm not trying to judge a draft less than two seasons in, but there's a lot of exaggeration going on here.



I think this is unfair. BJ Hill is a good player. He might not be All-Pro, but he was a good pick and was a 3rd rounder. You want 3rd rounders to be starting caliber, and Hill is that.

Also Ximines, another 3rd rounder, looks like he's coming on as a pass rusher. It is way too early to judge this rookie class though, either way. 6 of those 9 guys are rookies, and they did get a good player in Hill last year, with Carter still a TBD, and McIntosh will probably wash out.

And we'll see with Beal, which would make 10 defensive picks.


Well thats telling. 10 Defensive picks. 2 first rounders a second rounder 4 3rd rounders and 3 in the later rounds(4 if you count the practice squad). There should be some talent there. I think you can see it in our Dline. Maybe Connelly can be capable. But for this team to have shown so little progress on defense I think you have to wonder where this issue lies. Poor talent evaluation (considering some of the FA pickups as well), poor player development, poor scheme/coachin or is it 'other'? I'm not looking for them to be the '86 bears but, to my eyes, I don't see progress from this year to last and THAT is what is discouraging.
RE: RE: RE: for all the talk about how great the drafting supposedly has been  
RobCarpenter : 10/8/2019 4:08 pm : link
In comment 14619093 Dinger said:
Quote:
In comment 14618958 allstarjim said:


Quote:


In comment 14618881 Greg from LI said:


Quote:


They've drafted 9 players on defense in the past two years. Outside of Lawrence (a pick I loved, and by far my favorite of all of Gettleman's , and to a lesser extent Connelly briefly before he got hurt, none of of them have really shined thus far.

No, I'm not trying to judge a draft less than two seasons in, but there's a lot of exaggeration going on here.



I think this is unfair. BJ Hill is a good player. He might not be All-Pro, but he was a good pick and was a 3rd rounder. You want 3rd rounders to be starting caliber, and Hill is that.

Also Ximines, another 3rd rounder, looks like he's coming on as a pass rusher. It is way too early to judge this rookie class though, either way. 6 of those 9 guys are rookies, and they did get a good player in Hill last year, with Carter still a TBD, and McIntosh will probably wash out.

And we'll see with Beal, which would make 10 defensive picks.



Well thats telling. 10 Defensive picks. 2 first rounders a second rounder 4 3rd rounders and 3 in the later rounds(4 if you count the practice squad). There should be some talent there. I think you can see it in our Dline. Maybe Connelly can be capable. But for this team to have shown so little progress on defense I think you have to wonder where this issue lies. Poor talent evaluation (considering some of the FA pickups as well), poor player development, poor scheme/coachin or is it 'other'? I'm not looking for them to be the '86 bears but, to my eyes, I don't see progress from this year to last and THAT is what is discouraging.


There are multiple new starters on the D, several of whom are rookies.

Connelly was showing that he was much more than just capable.
Is 2021 season here yet?  
micky : 10/8/2019 4:09 pm : link
.
Man - you are guys are tough  
Dnew15 : 10/8/2019 4:23 pm : link
Who out there do you think the Giants should be targeting that is the significantly better than Shurmer?

I also think many are advocating that we throw every defensive draft pick that we have from the last two years out on the field - effective immediately...otherwise it's a coaching flaw seems a bit misguided.

It's going to take years to dig out of the mismanagement of this team from Reece/MacAdoo and yes even TC.

Putting all the blame on Shurmer right now seems a bit harsh.
Dnew is right....  
bw in dc : 10/8/2019 4:42 pm : link
Shurmur is an easy target. But largely a misplaced target.

Blaming him, or giving him the weight of the blame, gives too much cover to the guy who picks players in free agency, trades players, and selects players in the drafts. And it presumes that DG is in fact doing his job well. But I don't know how anyone can say that with any certainty at this point.

The product on the field every Sunday is much more a reflection of Gettleman than Shurmur at this point.

I would bet a considerably large amount of money that if you gave Shurmur sodium penthothal he would tell you without any delay he never wanted Eli to be his QB in the first place. He simply had NO choice.
BW  
UConn4523 : 10/8/2019 4:47 pm : link
I agree, but I also think that's the same for DG too. I'm guessing he took the job knowing he'd have to make it work with Eli.

2020 is the year that we get to see what everyone on this team is made of. It sucks we have to wait yet another year for it but it is what it is. Hard to judge anyone on anything when we've trotted out an expensive, washed up NY legend at QB the last few years.
It's not about blaming Shurmur  
Go Terps : 10/8/2019 4:59 pm : link
He clearly isn't the only problem.

But he just as clearly isn't the solution.
I'm still lost as to  
Dnew15 : 10/8/2019 5:12 pm : link
why he's clearly not the solution?

The guy is being asked to make filet with hot dog meat.
RE: It's not about blaming Shurmur  
81_Great_Dane : 10/8/2019 5:14 pm : link
In comment 14619189 Go Terps said:
Quote:
He clearly isn't the only problem.

But he just as clearly isn't the solution.
I don't think that's clear. But I think he's on a clock. We need to see some results ó†and I'd say those results have to be obvious in about a month. Seriously. Second half of this season. If the team looks the same, that's a coaching problem.
I agree Dane  
Dnew15 : 10/8/2019 5:17 pm : link
the clock started ticking on DG and PS the minute they started Jones.
Shurmur has been a horrific game day coach  
Go Terps : 10/8/2019 5:21 pm : link
This isn't clear to people at this point? I'm surprised...
You just keep stating  
Dnew15 : 10/8/2019 5:24 pm : link
that he's not a good HC - but haven't really given any examples of what your referring to.

THere have been - questionable decisions - but I can't think of anything that was horrific off the top of my head.

Maybe I'm missing something.
Go back and read the game threads over the past year  
Go Terps : 10/8/2019 5:28 pm : link
Poor timeout usage, poor clock management, misuse of Barkley, and his team generally looking unprepared. Blown coverage and blocking assignments, the ridiculous public Lauletta comments last year, the frequent excuse making for poor performance...

I really thought this was generally accepted.

Are there really people out there that see Shurmur coaching this team to 10 or more wins at any point? Really?
I wondered how long  
Dave on the UWS : 10/8/2019 6:43 pm : link
it would be before Terps dragged out his ďhire a consultantĒ, poorly run organizationĒ shtick. For those who donít know here, weíve been subjected to this for what 5+ yrs now. Iíve lost track.
The rebuttal is they have the SAME management structure now thatís brought 4 Super Bowls so they must be doing something right.
Also they have Duel ownership. They by definition means there will be more voices. Whatís the alternative, one of them sells?
The real issue are WHO the voices are. Reese and Ross proved to be a big failure. Chris Mara, who really knows what he knows and what input he has. The talent level seems to be heading in the right direction under Gettleman. The reality is until they win again, no one will really be able to say with conviction, why they lost since 2011. During the ďWilderness yearsĒ it was pretty obvious. Wellingtonís way of running things was passed by and he didnít adjust. So, management was a disaster. Neither myself, Terps or anyone else can be sure why this team has been so poor for a decade. The players were poor, why were they drafted (or signed). We all have our opinions.
You can directly point to Reeses hiring of Marc Ross and his complete  
Zeke's Alibi : 10/8/2019 6:54 pm : link
mismanagement of the draft. There's a reason that DG has came into GM positions twice and he is the ONLY person he's fired. It is going to take 3 years to get out of this hole, but if we aren't in the playoffs next year, short of DJ suffering a major injury, it will be time to move on. FA is kind of a crapshoot, but that will give DG 3 years of drafts. Thats enough to build a playoff roster.
RE: RE: Difference is, until now we were watching the end  
D_Giants : 10/8/2019 7:20 pm : link
In comment 14618787 Dinger said:
Quote:
In comment 14618712 exiled said:


Quote:


of an era. Now weíre watching the beginning of an era. I know weíre seeing the same challenges and similar outcomes, but it has a different feel. I mean, if Eli played last Sunday with precisely the same results, his performance wouldíve been panned. With Jones, it just reflects growing pains (and terrible pass protection).

You donít feel that, Essex? The optimism?



I can't speak for Essex, but I am more relieved than optimistic. Having who appears to be a keeper at QB is a great step forward. But after SB46 we had a great QB. we proceeded to draft poorly and/or not develop players we did draft and maybe had one or two decent teams. I have to agree that I'm worried that its deeper than just a GM or coaching change. I don't know Chris Mara's role as VP of player personnel and I am not sure where these two fit in:
Director of Player Personnnel: Mark Koncz
Director of Pro Personnel: Ken Sternfeld
But we don't seem to be developing prospects well and we don't seem to know the FA market well. I also think it has to do with the coaches developing players and creating a game play that works best with those players. I doesn't seem like most of our players are as well 'prepare' or 'coached' as other teams at our level(DJ seemingly the exception).

So I guess I have hope that we can build around this QB better than we did around the last one, just not seeing it yet.


SB is another Tiki Barber and Jones looks to be a quality QB. Other than those 2 first-round picks, this team has marginal players. DG is unimpressive with overpaying underperforming veteran unrestricted FA signings (eg, J Stewart, N Solder, A Bethea, Ogletree). I saw the huge dump of players last year, but this team is not better in any way than the 2016 team and is on par to match the dismal 2017 team. Giants would be 1-4 without a missed cup shot FG in TB. At this rate this team is heading for a 3-win or 4-win season. Gettleman is DR. Dumpíem, but the players we now have are unimpressive. World class STINK at defense; itís embarrassing.
RE: Go back and read the game threads over the past year  
D_Giants : 10/8/2019 7:28 pm : link
In comment 14619221 Go Terps said:
Quote:
Poor timeout usage, poor clock management, misuse of Barkley, and his team generally looking unprepared. Blown coverage and blocking assignments, the ridiculous public Lauletta comments last year, the frequent excuse making for poor performance...

I really thought this was generally accepted.

Are there really people out there that see Shurmur coaching this team to 10 or more wins at any point? Really?


NO. As Ron White, the comedian, says: You canít fix stupid. They extends all through the FO and into ownership.
Dave on the UWS  
Go Terps : 10/8/2019 7:33 pm : link
And these aren't "wilderness years"?

These have been the worst years the Giants have had in 40 years. Worse than Handley. Worse than Reeves. Since Hurricane Sandy this organization is 43-66.

The reasons for this stretch of pathetic football are numerous, and they didn't all go out the door with Reese no matter how badly we want to kid ourselves into thinking otherwise. Recruiting an outside voice to analyze performance is what smart organizations do in times of success, let alone in times as embarrassing as these.

The CBA and rules changes have completely transformed the NFL even since our 2011 Super Bowl...at what point do we admit that this organization is lost at sea with regards to how a football team is run in the current era?
RE: Dave on the UWS  
allstarjim : 10/8/2019 8:49 pm : link
In comment 14619316 Go Terps said:
Quote:
And these aren't "wilderness years"?

These have been the worst years the Giants have had in 40 years. Worse than Handley. Worse than Reeves. Since Hurricane Sandy this organization is 43-66.

The reasons for this stretch of pathetic football are numerous, and they didn't all go out the door with Reese no matter how badly we want to kid ourselves into thinking otherwise. Recruiting an outside voice to analyze performance is what smart organizations do in times of success, let alone in times as embarrassing as these.

The CBA and rules changes have completely transformed the NFL even since our 2011 Super Bowl...at what point do we admit that this organization is lost at sea with regards to how a football team is run in the current era?


We have a rookie QB that can change the trajectory of the franchise. Saying this is premature.
RE: Dave on the UWS  
bw in dc : 10/8/2019 8:52 pm : link
In comment 14619316 Go Terps said:
Quote:


Recruiting an outside voice to analyze performance is what smart organizations do in times of success, let alone in times as embarrassing as these.



I have little doubt Mara thinks he is accomplishing this by bringing in Accorsi.
RE: RE: RE: for all the talk about how great the drafting supposedly has been  
allstarjim : 10/8/2019 8:54 pm : link
In comment 14619093 Dinger said:
Quote:
In comment 14618958 allstarjim said:


Quote:


In comment 14618881 Greg from LI said:


Quote:


They've drafted 9 players on defense in the past two years. Outside of Lawrence (a pick I loved, and by far my favorite of all of Gettleman's , and to a lesser extent Connelly briefly before he got hurt, none of of them have really shined thus far.

No, I'm not trying to judge a draft less than two seasons in, but there's a lot of exaggeration going on here.



I think this is unfair. BJ Hill is a good player. He might not be All-Pro, but he was a good pick and was a 3rd rounder. You want 3rd rounders to be starting caliber, and Hill is that.

Also Ximines, another 3rd rounder, looks like he's coming on as a pass rusher. It is way too early to judge this rookie class though, either way. 6 of those 9 guys are rookies, and they did get a good player in Hill last year, with Carter still a TBD, and McIntosh will probably wash out.

And we'll see with Beal, which would make 10 defensive picks.



Well thats telling. 10 Defensive picks. 2 first rounders a second rounder 4 3rd rounders and 3 in the later rounds(4 if you count the practice squad). There should be some talent there. I think you can see it in our Dline. Maybe Connelly can be capable. But for this team to have shown so little progress on defense I think you have to wonder where this issue lies. Poor talent evaluation (considering some of the FA pickups as well), poor player development, poor scheme/coachin or is it 'other'? I'm not looking for them to be the '86 bears but, to my eyes, I don't see progress from this year to last and THAT is what is discouraging.


I see a defense that has made significant strides in the past year. But shit, if you want to blow it up again after 5 games when there has been demonstrable improvement with a handful of rookies that are projectable, I don't think you have much nuance in how NFL players are developed.
RE: RE: Dave on the UWS  
FatMan in Charlotte : 10/8/2019 9:45 pm : link
In comment 14619389 bw in dc said:
Quote:
In comment 14619316 Go Terps said:


Quote:




Recruiting an outside voice to analyze performance is what smart organizations do in times of success, let alone in times as embarrassing as these.





I have little doubt Mara thinks he is accomplishing this by bringing in Accorsi.


The ironic things is that you know who else brought in Accorsi a couple of years ago?

The Colts. The same colts that have become BBI's darling team.

We are nothing if we aren't hypocritical and contradictory....
Accorsi consulting with the Colts...  
bw in dc : 10/8/2019 10:10 pm : link
is far different than Accorsi "consulting" with the Giants.

Accorsi was the GM for the Colts for two years back in the early '80s. And his only claim to fame there was the Elway Saga during the draft.

Accorsi was here for 9 years, selected one of the most revered Giants ever (Eli) and won a historic SB. At Jints Central, he is royalty. And he knows exactly what makes that organization tick and what fits the Mara profile. There is nothing about his involvement with the fake GM search that was new and refreshing.

He is far from an independent voice.
...  
christian : 10/8/2019 10:25 pm : link
It's time to get over Reese. The Giants have had 8 top 100 picks since he's left, have a new coach, a new QB, and 45+ new players overall. They have spent virtually every single dollar against the cap the last 2 years.

The draft picks Reese made 10 years ago have no bearing on this team. The draft picks Reese made 5 years ago statistically had little chance to have a bearing on this team.

This team isn't pieced together with low value players. The offensive line has a high priced UFA, a 2nd round pick, a mid range UFA, and a high priced trade acquisition. The running back is the former 2nd over all pick. The WR group has a 2nd round pick and high priced UFA. The tight end group has a 1st round pick and well paid UFA.

The defensive line compromises of a 1st, 2nd, and 3rd round pick. The edge rushers are two 3rd round picks, a well paid UFA, and a former very good player who's playing great this year. One of the inside linebackers is a very high priced trade acquisition.

The SS is a a former 1st round pick. The corner group consists of high priced UFA, a 1st round pick, and a 3rd round pick.

The only low asset players who were slated to be starters were Halopio, Latimer, Haley, Bethea, and Davis.
Terps - how much ďmanagementĒ experience  
Dave on the UWS : 10/8/2019 10:56 pm : link
do you have? Iíve managed in health care for 35 years. There are ďalwaysĒ consultants, official or otherwise giving their opinions. Sometimes good often times not. If you think John Mara has sat for 8!years in his office looked at things and said ďgee I donít think Iíll ask anyoneís adviceĒ then I have multiple bridges to sell you. ESPECIALLY, since he saw what happened to his father during said wilderness years, by running things all himself. What Mara is MOST guilty of, is trusting his GM too much and allowing his franchise to be run into the ground. By asking AccorsiĒs opinion about a new GM, that was a change in how he had been operating. So far, Gettleman seems to have things pointed in the right direction. Youíre entitled to your opinion Terps, I just think itís overly arrogant.
RE: Man - you are guys are tough  
cosmicj : 10/8/2019 10:57 pm : link
In comment 14619129 Dnew15 said:
Quote:
Who out there do you think the Giants should be targeting that is the significantly better than Shurmur?...
Putting all the blame on Shurmer right now seems a bit harsh.


I guarantee you that there are coordinators and college coaches out there who will be impressing the league in the 2020s. I donít have the knowledge to spot those men but it damn well is Gettlemanís job and he needs to identify them.

No one is blaming Shurmur for everything. Thatís a straw man. He is not incompetent and, in fact, I feel for him because heís worked very hard to get to this spot in his career and in both HC jobs has been dealt an absolute crap hand. But there are problems after problems after problems on game day. In the end, does anyone believe he will lead the Giants to their next trophy?
IMO it's all about Jones  
giantstock : 10/8/2019 11:27 pm : link
Everything else is just noise.

Looking forward to all remaining games. If Jones is real good then eventually GMEN should be able to be damn good. OFC nothing is guaranteed but the QB - if he is darn good- gives HOPE. Barkley and Jones give HOPE.

I've been on - and remain on - the 6-10 won/loss train. Just want to see Jones from week-to-week and hope that he develops into a future stud.
RE: RE: Man - you are guys are tough  
allstarjim : 10/8/2019 11:58 pm : link
In comment 14619465 cosmicj said:
Quote:
In comment 14619129 Dnew15 said:


Quote:


Who out there do you think the Giants should be targeting that is the significantly better than Shurmur?...
Putting all the blame on Shurmer right now seems a bit harsh.



I guarantee you that there are coordinators and college coaches out there who will be impressing the league in the 2020s. I donít have the knowledge to spot those men but it damn well is Gettlemanís job and he needs to identify them.

No one is blaming Shurmur for everything. Thatís a straw man. He is not incompetent and, in fact, I feel for him because heís worked very hard to get to this spot in his career and in both HC jobs has been dealt an absolute crap hand. But there are problems after problems after problems on game day. In the end, does anyone believe he will lead the Giants to their next trophy?


There are people blaming a lot on Shurmur. It's not a straw man at all. It's amazing seeing the posts on this board last week to this week. Not much should have changed, but one loss later everyone goes from talking about playoffs to saying Gettleman and Shurmur aren't fit for their jobs. It truly is amazing.

You have a QB-guru type of head coach with a rookie QB who is developing. I think some patience is warranted to allow Shurmur to do his thing for a couple of years. I want to see what Shurmur does with Jones through the 2022 season. I think you can fairly judge at least Shurmur by then, but prior to that, let them do their jobs without this inane babble.
LOL..  
FatMan in Charlotte : 10/9/2019 8:13 am : link
Why is it far different??

Quote:
Accorsi consulting with the Colts...
bw in dc : 10/8/2019 10:10 pm : link : reply
is far different than Accorsi "consulting" with the Giants.


Both teams hired the same consultant to drive a search. The only way it is different is to drive yet anther useless reference to "Jints Central".

RE: I don't think there's much chance for the playoffs this season.  
DeepBlueJint : 10/9/2019 8:24 am : link
In comment 14618696 Ira said:
Quote:
What I'm pleased with is that we're finally building a nucleus of talent young players for the future.


PLAYOFFS? PLAYOFFS! WHO SAID ANYTHING ABOUT PLAYOFFS!
RE: RE: RE: Man - you are guys are tough  
rsjem1979 : 10/9/2019 8:39 am : link
In comment 14619490 allstarjim said:
Quote:
In comment 14619465 cosmicj said:


Quote:


In comment 14619129 Dnew15 said:


Quote:


Who out there do you think the Giants should be targeting that is the significantly better than Shurmur?...
Putting all the blame on Shurmer right now seems a bit harsh.



I guarantee you that there are coordinators and college coaches out there who will be impressing the league in the 2020s. I donít have the knowledge to spot those men but it damn well is Gettlemanís job and he needs to identify them.

No one is blaming Shurmur for everything. Thatís a straw man. He is not incompetent and, in fact, I feel for him because heís worked very hard to get to this spot in his career and in both HC jobs has been dealt an absolute crap hand. But there are problems after problems after problems on game day. In the end, does anyone believe he will lead the Giants to their next trophy?



There are people blaming a lot on Shurmur. It's not a straw man at all. It's amazing seeing the posts on this board last week to this week. Not much should have changed, but one loss later everyone goes from talking about playoffs to saying Gettleman and Shurmur aren't fit for their jobs. It truly is amazing.

You have a QB-guru type of head coach with a rookie QB who is developing. I think some patience is warranted to allow Shurmur to do his thing for a couple of years. I want to see what Shurmur does with Jones through the 2022 season. I think you can fairly judge at least Shurmur by then, but prior to that, let them do their jobs without this inane babble.


You want to give a guy who has never won 6 games another 3 years regardless of the results?

This isn't just about Daniel Jones, he can't rescue this franchise by himself. If Shurmur wants to be the QB guru under a competent head coach, I'll pay to have his letterhead and business cards reprinted.
Sorry Terps  
Dnew15 : 10/9/2019 10:06 am : link
Had to take the old lady out to dinner last night for the anniversary what-have-you. I've gone back and forth with you on this site a couple times and I respect your football acumen...

Here's what I'm going to give you - this team was completely devoid of talent when PS and DG took over. And what little talent that was on the roster were me-first and/or high-dollar and/or has-been's and/or all of the above. It takes a while to re-tool an entire roster filled with these kinds of players and damn near impossible to win with them.

It's similar to college football - you don't fire a college coach until they get a chance to perform with their own guys. ADs know that you can't win with a bunch of guys that the previous regime recruited and a new class of freshman. UNLESS that coach has made some egregious coaching decisions on the field and off that make it a slam dunk.

I don't always buy into the BBI group think on everything. To my eye, have there been some in-game coaching decisions where I raise an eyebrow - sure. But I can't point to a particular coaching move and say definitively - that's why they lost. As far his is team being prepared - I'm not sure how you can just determine that they are "unprepared". I mean, how do you gameplan against a team where you are clearly one dimensional on offense after losing your 2nd string RB after the first series of the game and stop the run against a team who wants to run first and your starting MLBs are basically Mayo and Stupar.

I don't know for sure if PS can win 10+ games with the Giants once he gets "his guys". But, if you were a local guy, I would bet a beer of your choice that by the end of the 2021-2022 season they have 10 wins and are in the playoffs.

If I'm wrong - I'd gladly purchase that beer during the press conference hosted by Mara and Tisch when they dismiss DG and PS.
Fans need to move on  
djm : 10/9/2019 10:13 am : link
What happened in 2013-2017 doesnít apply anymore. And please donít preach to me about how perennial bad teams like the giants never improve or speak in stupid platitudes. Things can change. We see it all the time.

No one wants to see this team win more than I do. No one has suffered more than I have, going to these bad, depressing games in November or October or even September, paying 1000s of dollars, believe me I know. But that shit in the past is irrelevant. New team, new regime.
C'mon..  
FatMan in Charlotte : 10/9/2019 11:22 am : link
this is a backbone of a lot of successful teams:

Quote:
The draft picks Reese made 10 years ago have no bearing on this team. The draft picks Reese made 5 years ago statistically had little chance to have a bearing on this team.


The Cowboys continuity has been through solid drafting. Elliott is closing in on 5 years. To not have any players on a team from 5-7 years ago is indicative of a complete failure in the draft.

Look at the steady teams in the league. Even if they haven't drafted stellar, they still have several contributors on their team from drafts years ago.
The idea that the recent past  
Dnew15 : 10/9/2019 11:29 am : link
should have no impact on the present is just crazy.

But I understand the frustration and need to move on.
RE: LOL..  
bw in dc : 10/9/2019 12:05 pm : link
In comment 14619546 FatMan in Charlotte said:
Quote:

Both teams hired the same consultant to drive a search. The only way it is different is to drive yet anther useless reference to "Jints Central".


It's enormously different. Accorsi is family. He's not an independent voice. He knows exactly what Mara wants to hear.

It's like your wife asking you how her dress looks before you go out. You'd better say yes even if it's not quite her best look...
RE: C'mon..  
christian : 10/9/2019 12:18 pm : link
In comment 14619791 FatMan in Charlotte said:
Quote:
this is a backbone of a lot of successful teams:



Quote:


The draft picks Reese made 10 years ago have no bearing on this team. The draft picks Reese made 5 years ago statistically had little chance to have a bearing on this team.



The Cowboys continuity has been through solid drafting. Elliott is closing in on 5 years. To not have any players on a team from 5-7 years ago is indicative of a complete failure in the draft.

Look at the steady teams in the league. Even if they haven't drafted stellar, they still have several contributors on their team from drafts years ago.


The Cowboys have 7 players on their roster they drafted 5 or more years ago. I'm not sure if this is a lot or a little. I know they have some core players in that list.

My point is statistically most players don't survive 5 years in the league.
Again,  
Go Terps : 10/9/2019 12:42 pm : link
we've seen well-coached, talent-poor teams. That's not what going on here.

We aren't talent-poor at running back, and yet we're giving Elijah Penny and Eli Manning crucial running plays in Dallas. We consistently manage our timeouts and the clock poorly. Our head coach used our 4th round rookie quarterback as a joke to take a shot at the media.

None of that is due to talent deficiencies on the roster.

This head coach and his staff have been dreadful, period.
RE: RE: It's a poorly run organization  
santacruzom : 10/9/2019 12:53 pm : link
In comment 14618728 allstarjim said:
Quote:


Yeah ok.

You're still upset they didn't draft Lamar Jackson, and that's it.


Yeah, it's entirely reasonable to think that's the only thing Terps could possibly be upset about.
And by the way, I'm being proven right on Jackson  
Go Terps : 10/9/2019 12:57 pm : link
If we called Baltimore and offered them Barkley for him straight up they'd just point out that Jackson's done more for their running game and offense than Barkley has for ours.

My concerns with Jackson revolved around his mom being involved in his contract negotiations, and his posting that idiotic video driving at insane speeds. But if Baltimore has squelched the bullshit, Jackson is going to end up top ten in the MVP voting.
RE: And by the way, I'm being proven right on Jackson  
bw in dc : 10/9/2019 1:04 pm : link
In comment 14619956 Go Terps said:
Quote:
If we called Baltimore and offered them Barkley for him straight up they'd just point out that Jackson's done more for their running game and offense than Barkley has for ours.

My concerns with Jackson revolved around his mom being involved in his contract negotiations, and his posting that idiotic video driving at insane speeds. But if Baltimore has squelched the bullshit, Jackson is going to end up top ten in the MVP voting.


Well, that's really going out on a limb. A team not willing to trade their QB of the future for a dynamic RB.

RE: I wondered how long  
santacruzom : 10/9/2019 1:04 pm : link
In comment 14619281 Dave on the UWS said:
Quote:

The rebuttal is they have the SAME management structure now thatís brought 4 Super Bowls so they must be doing something right.


No, in that example the rebuttal would simply be that they must have once done something right.

RE: RE: And by the way, I'm being proven right on Jackson  
Go Terps : 10/9/2019 1:07 pm : link
In comment 14619973 bw in dc said:
Quote:
In comment 14619956 Go Terps said:


Quote:


If we called Baltimore and offered them Barkley for him straight up they'd just point out that Jackson's done more for their running game and offense than Barkley has for ours.

My concerns with Jackson revolved around his mom being involved in his contract negotiations, and his posting that idiotic video driving at insane speeds. But if Baltimore has squelched the bullshit, Jackson is going to end up top ten in the MVP voting.



Well, that's really going out on a limb. A team not willing to trade their QB of the future for a dynamic RB.


If you ask a lot of posters, they'll tell you you can get the RB first and find the QB later. They're equally difficult positions to fill.
RE: RE: RE: And by the way, I'm being proven right on Jackson  
bw in dc : 10/9/2019 1:12 pm : link
In comment 14619983 Go Terps said:
Quote:

If you ask a lot of posters, they'll tell you you can get the RB first and find the QB later. They're equally difficult positions to fill.


You take them seriously?

Right now, I could make a case it's more worthwhile to take a great kicking prospect over a RB.
RE: RE: RE: RE: And by the way, I'm being proven right on Jackson  
Go Terps : 10/9/2019 1:17 pm : link
In comment 14619991 bw in dc said:
Quote:
In comment 14619983 Go Terps said:


Quote:



If you ask a lot of posters, they'll tell you you can get the RB first and find the QB later. They're equally difficult positions to fill.



You take them seriously?

Right now, I could make a case it's more worthwhile to take a great kicking prospect over a RB.


I don't. The Barkley pick can be added to the pile of examples where posters warp reality in order to rationalize the Giants' errors.
RE: RE: LOL..  
Dnew15 : 10/9/2019 1:44 pm : link
In comment 14619872 bw in dc said:
Quote:
In comment 14619546 FatMan in Charlotte said:


Quote:



Both teams hired the same consultant to drive a search. The only way it is different is to drive yet anther useless reference to "Jints Central".




It's enormously different. Accorsi is family. He's not an independent voice. He knows exactly what Mara wants to hear.

It's like your wife asking you how her dress looks before you go out. You'd better say yes even if it's not quite her best look...


Kinda like when the owner of the team says to DG and through DG to PS, "We love Eli and think he can still win, if you get this job, you're going to give Eli every chance to succeed as possible....right?"
I'm sure EA leaned with yet another  
Dnew15 : 10/9/2019 1:47 pm : link
dramatic..."rrrright?"
Lamar Jackson..  
FatMan in Charlotte : 10/9/2019 1:55 pm : link
is another case of people jumping the gun.

He's been a starting QB for less than an entire season and the jury is very much out on him, especially his throwing ability.

Hell, going into this year, Mayfield was already being called a franchise QB. Is he? we don't know. Jackson is the QB of the future for the Ravens? How do you know?
RE: Lamar Jackson..  
Go Terps : 10/9/2019 2:07 pm : link
In comment 14620056 FatMan in Charlotte said:
Quote:
is another case of people jumping the gun.

He's been a starting QB for less than an entire season and the jury is very much out on him, especially his throwing ability.

Hell, going into this year, Mayfield was already being called a franchise QB. Is he? we don't know. Jackson is the QB of the future for the Ravens? How do you know?


Jackson is the QB of the present for the Ravens, and they will probably win the division with him...again. Baltimore's not throwing away years and blaming it on past regimes like we are.

Barkley was in the same class as Jackson, and you and others haven't hesitated in jumping the gun to compliment him.
RE: Lamar Jackson..  
Greg from LI : 10/9/2019 2:26 pm : link
In comment 14620056 FatMan in Charlotte said:
Quote:
is another case of people jumping the gun.

He's been a starting QB for less than an entire season and the jury is very much out on him, especially his throwing ability.

Hell, going into this year, Mayfield was already being called a franchise QB. Is he? we don't know. Jackson is the QB of the future for the Ravens? How do you know?


You're probably right, but I will say that a lot of people who say things like that (not saying you, but there are plenty of others who do) in their next breath talk about how we are set at QB for the next 15 years.
RE: Lamar Jackson..  
christian : 10/9/2019 3:21 pm : link
In comment 14620056 FatMan in Charlotte said:
Quote:
is another case of people jumping the gun.

He's been a starting QB for less than an entire season and the jury is very much out on him, especially his throwing ability.

Hell, going into this year, Mayfield was already being called a franchise QB. Is he? we don't know. Jackson is the QB of the future for the Ravens? How do you know?


The "unknown" logic can just as easily be applied to Barkley. Can he consistently stay healthy, can he be an efficient part of the pass game, can the Giants have a productive rush offense with Barkley.

If last year isn't a good enough sample, and early this year is a directional indicator, there are plenty of logical questions about Barkley too.

Plenty of reasonable folks think running back is bad value because they get banged up frequently, don't pick up a lot of yards in the pass game, and despite have the 2nd leading rusher the Giants were something like 24th in rush yards.
Through 5 games:  
Go Terps : 10/9/2019 3:31 pm : link
- Baltimore has outrushed NYG by 400 yards
- Baltimore has passed for the same yards on 30 fewer pass attempts
- Baltimore is the highest scoring team in the NFL; NYG is 23rd

If the situations were flipped, and we had Jackson and those offensive stats, is FMIC here telling us we're jumping the gun?
RE: RE: Lamar Jackson..  
Big Blue '56 : 10/9/2019 3:37 pm : link
In comment 14620101 Greg from LI said:
Quote:
In comment 14620056 FatMan in Charlotte said:


Quote:


is another case of people jumping the gun.

He's been a starting QB for less than an entire season and the jury is very much out on him, especially his throwing ability.

Hell, going into this year, Mayfield was already being called a franchise QB. Is he? we don't know. Jackson is the QB of the future for the Ravens? How do you know?



You're probably right, but I will say that a lot of people who say things like that (not saying you, but there are plenty of others who do) in their next breath talk about how we are set at QB for the next 15 years.


I think the vast majority on here have said we could be set for the next 10-15 years
RE: Through 5 games:  
FatMan in Charlotte : 10/9/2019 4:14 pm : link
In comment 14620186 Go Terps said:
Quote:
- Baltimore has outrushed NYG by 400 yards
- Baltimore has passed for the same yards on 30 fewer pass attempts
- Baltimore is the highest scoring team in the NFL; NYG is 23rd

If the situations were flipped, and we had Jackson and those offensive stats, is FMIC here telling us we're jumping the gun?


actually, I usually sit in the middle on most of these discussions. Because things usually aren't as good as they seem nor are they as bleak as they seem.

I try not to overreact to small sample sizes, so you won't find me calling for a coach to be fired immediately or make the case a GM should be fired because of the way he was hired or because he didn't turn a team around in year 1.

You won't find me talking about teams like the Colts and Niners as teams to emulate because they have early season success (and even the colts success isn't extraordinary).

about the biggest leap I'll make is to say it has been more exciting to watch the team and I'm hopeful our young players will develop.

But around here - everyone else seems to be doing it right and the Giants aren't, including draft strategy and personnel moves.

Terps - you are an interesting poster. You wanted the team blown up. We did it. And you still bitch.
.  
Go Terps : 10/9/2019 4:50 pm : link
Blowing up the roster was only part of it. They completely fucked up with Beckham, and then again with Eli. And say what you want...thus far the Barkley pick hasn't panned out. He's great, but the impact on the offense has been negligible. You can say it's early, but we've already seen other players from that draft have a massive impact on their teams.

And through it all, the coach sucks at his job.

Yeah blowing up that roster of losers (you've changed your tune on those guys just like most others here) was good, but it was only a start.

This is all pointing to more leadership and roster turnover after 2020, because any talent we add won't change the fact that Shurmur can't coach his way out of a paper bag.
.  
Go Terps : 10/9/2019 4:52 pm : link
How many more seasons do we have to punt to support our rationalizations?
RE: .  
FatMan in Charlotte : 10/9/2019 4:54 pm : link
In comment 14620268 Go Terps said:
Quote:
How many more seasons do we have to punt to support our rationalizations?


How many season does Gettleman get attributed to him that weren't his fault??

But hell, if you are floating out the idea that the Barkley pick was a bad one, you probably aren't really interested in patience. Or logic.
Shurmur remaining the guy he is  
santacruzom : 10/9/2019 5:03 pm : link
Ranks as my biggest concern right now. I have enough confidence that Gettleman can acquire at enough talent to at least be a good team, the sort that can line up against other good teams and win the games they should and even some they shouldn't. But has Shurmur ever shown himself to be a positive difference maker as a head coach? Will there be reasons to keep him, or will there merely be excuses offered to counter the reasons why we shouldn't?

And if we actually do show him the door, do we wind up replacing him with a substantial upgrade? Or do we hire Chuck Pagano?
You fixate on Gettleman  
Go Terps : 10/9/2019 5:04 pm : link
No one is singling out Gettleman. I suspect you fixate on Gettleman because you know Shurmur sucks at his job. And actually, the reasons to criticize the Barkley pick are rooted only in logic - the math backs it up.

But regardless, this isn't just about Gettleman. It's about the way the organization is run.
Of course people..  
FatMan in Charlotte : 10/9/2019 5:18 pm : link
have singled out Gettleman, and I find it a very interesting case.

He hasn't been perfect at his job, but the vitriol he takes he is way over the top in relation to the effort he's made to rebuild the roster.

He's been disliked by some since Day 1 because of the way he was hired. Hell, just today there was a snide mention of Accorsi as a consultant (and the fucked up logic that his consultancy with the Colts was somehow different).

He's mocked for a flippant comment about analytics to the point that a couple guys used that to say he shuns analytics and doesn't use them. People treated the Stewart signing like the worst move ever made and one that would cripple the franchise.

And there are people here who whole heartedly believe Gettleman should be fired. Of course he's singled out. And if anything, I've fixated on BBI for years against the use of terrible logic. So it makes sense that I defend the guy - not to say that he's perfect, but to point out the atrocious points most are making to rail against him.

And the idea that picking a good player is bad isn't logical.
.  
Go Terps : 10/9/2019 5:28 pm : link
Quote:
And the idea that picking a good player is bad isn't logical.


It certainly can be, because the possibility exists that you could have picked a better player, or an equal player at a more important position. That certainly is the case thus far with Barkley, whose impact has been - to repeat - negligible.

And people are not singling out Gettleman. He's a symptom of a larger problem. You are focusing on Gettleman because he's actually done a couple good things among the bad, but like I said before you're avoiding the fact that Shurmur is bad at his job. You're also avoiding the fact that the Giants' front office operates in a way that results in huge inefficiencies like paying Beckham only to trade him, and paying Eli only to sit on the bench. And in a year we'll be lamenting that they kept Shurmur because he'd "groom Jones" while in reality he was just a coordinator with a head coach's salary.

This team is no stranger to switching horses mistream, and I expect they'll be doing it again after 2020. In the meantime, another year will have been wasted.

To underscore: the way this team operates is fucked.
The idea..  
FatMan in Charlotte : 10/9/2019 5:39 pm : link
that Barkley's impact has been negligible is an exercise in trying to justify that he shouldn't have been taken 2nd.

But the same standard is oddly not applied to others. Just look at last season. Mayfield's impact was thought to be significant. And after leading the Browns to a whopping 7-8-1 record, they were poised to make a huge leap this season. Darnold's impact was negligible, but excused under the guise that rookie QB's need experience to succeed.

You know who made an impact? Beckham. But he picked up personal fouls and punched kicking nets, so he was a terrible player too.

Barkley was Rookie of the Year last season. Unless you are suggesting he can carry an entire team to success, and unless you can compare him to peers having a massive impact, suggesting he has a marginal impact can have that same standard applied to any player.
I thought this was funny  
Jimmy Googs : 10/9/2019 5:47 pm : link
Quote:
I try not to overreact to small sample sizes



RE: Through 5 games:  
bw in dc : 10/9/2019 6:35 pm : link
In comment 14620186 Go Terps said:
Quote:
- Baltimore has outrushed NYG by 400 yards
- Baltimore has passed for the same yards on 30 fewer pass attempts
- Baltimore is the highest scoring team in the NFL; NYG is 23rd

If the situations were flipped, and we had Jackson and those offensive stats, is FMIC here telling us we're jumping the gun?


I would be careful touting those stats until about the 10th game. Why? Because they need to be smoothed out. In their first game of the year the Ravens played Miami and racked up about 700 yards in total offense. It was a total annihilation against one of the worst teams we've seen in a long, long time...

I get your point, but there is some distortion right now...
RE: Of course people..  
bw in dc : 10/9/2019 6:40 pm : link
In comment 14620295 FatMan in Charlotte said:
Quote:

He's been disliked by some since Day 1 because of the way he was hired. Hell, just today there was a snide mention of Accorsi as a consultant (and the fucked up logic that his consultancy with the Colts was somehow different).



Well, since this is addressed to me, let me say this is very funny. You act like the Giants hiring Accorsi was like they hired Deloitte.

But you damn well there was nothing neutral about the Giants/Mara bringing Accorsi in. He understands "Giants Way-speak" and was brought in to steer Mara to find the best candidate to satisfy the "Giants Way" requisite.

You're a smart guy. To interpret in any other way is pretty naive...
RE: RE: Through 5 games:  
Go Terps : 10/9/2019 6:42 pm : link
In comment 14620392 bw in dc said:
Quote:
In comment 14620186 Go Terps said:


Quote:


- Baltimore has outrushed NYG by 400 yards
- Baltimore has passed for the same yards on 30 fewer pass attempts
- Baltimore is the highest scoring team in the NFL; NYG is 23rd

If the situations were flipped, and we had Jackson and those offensive stats, is FMIC here telling us we're jumping the gun?



I would be careful touting those stats until about the 10th game. Why? Because they need to be smoothed out. In their first game of the year the Ravens played Miami and racked up about 700 yards in total offense. It was a total annihilation against one of the worst teams we've seen in a long, long time...

I get your point, but there is some distortion right now...


Of course. We can definitely revisit at the end of the season and see how they've ended up.
Most people with actual football knowledge like explayers and GMs  
Zeke's Alibi : 10/9/2019 6:49 pm : link
think CMC should be the MVP right now. They know its not going to happen, but they think he deserves it.
RE: The idea..  
BigBlueShock : 10/9/2019 6:51 pm : link
In comment 14620324 FatMan in Charlotte said:
Quote:
that Barkley's impact has been negligible is an exercise in trying to justify that he shouldn't have been taken 2nd.

But the same standard is oddly not applied to others. Just look at last season. Mayfield's impact was thought to be significant. And after leading the Browns to a whopping 7-8-1 record, they were poised to make a huge leap this season. Darnold's impact was negligible, but excused under the guise that rookie QB's need experience to succeed.

You know who made an impact? Beckham. But he picked up personal fouls and punched kicking nets, so he was a terrible player too.

Barkley was Rookie of the Year last season. Unless you are suggesting he can carry an entire team to success, and unless you can compare him to peers having a massive impact, suggesting he has a marginal impact can have that same standard applied to any player.

Letís not forget many on BBIs favorite alternative to Barkley, Bradley Chubb. Chubb was very good last year, yet the Broncos still sucked. Werenít any better than the Giants. This season, the Broncos didnít have a single sack until week 4 and won their first game of the season after Chubb went to IR. Yet somehow, we donít see people saying he was a bad pick even though his affect on wins and losses has been ďnegligibleĒ. Only Barkley gets that acclaim
BBS  
Jimmy Googs : 10/9/2019 7:00 pm : link
I think the debate is better couched not that Barkley was a bad pick, but he was the easy one. The better pick would be to find a player at a more valued position than running back, or trade it away for multiple picks (if available) since the team is in full restructuring mode and needs to improve almost everywhere.

At least itís my debate...
RE: Most people with actual football knowledge like explayers and GMs  
bw in dc : 10/9/2019 7:05 pm : link
In comment 14620408 Zeke's Alibi said:
Quote:
think CMC should be the MVP right now. They know its not going to happen, but they think he deserves it.


If they actually think that, than they haven't watched a Seattle, KC, or Houston game this year...
RE: RE: The idea..  
santacruzom : 10/9/2019 7:05 pm : link
In comment 14620410 BigBlueShock said:
Quote:

Letís not forget many on BBIs favorite alternative to Barkley, Bradley Chubb. Chubb was very good last year, yet the Broncos still sucked. Werenít any better than the Giants. This season, the Broncos didnít have a single sack until week 4 and won their first game of the season after Chubb went to IR. Yet somehow, we donít see people saying he was a bad pick even though his affect on wins and losses has been ďnegligibleĒ. Only Barkley gets that acclaim


Yeah, I think you're likely to find that a lot of players taken in the top 10 wind up having a "negligible" impact, simply because the teams bad enough to take them top 10 often stay bad enough to draft top ten... because they're bad teams!
...  
christian : 10/9/2019 7:10 pm : link
Personally I'll start liking Shurmur and Gettleman more when the Giants show they are legitimately competing for a playoff spot.

It's not the Colts 3-2 record this year that's drawing eyes.

Going into April of 2018 the Giants were a 3-13 team with a new head coach and the 2nd overall pick. The Colts were a 4-12 team with a new head coach.

The Colts traded out, acquired a number of picks, fixed their line, added 2 All Pros in a single draft. Their 2nd year GM opted to not uproot the team and spent conservatively.

The Colts won 10 games, won a playoff game.

The Giants 1st year GM reportedly didn't field offers for a trade back. Drafted a running back, and some nice complementary players with good potential.

Then the Giants went 5-11.
christian - be patient  
Go Terps : 10/9/2019 7:24 pm : link
As Eric brilliantly stated in his game preview, we're only in year 8 of the 20 year rebuilding plan.
RE: ...  
bw in dc : 10/9/2019 7:48 pm : link
In comment 14620433 christian said:
Quote:
Personally I'll start liking Shurmur and Gettleman more when the Giants show they are legitimately competing for a playoff spot.

It's not the Colts 3-2 record this year that's drawing eyes.

Going into April of 2018 the Giants were a 3-13 team with a new head coach and the 2nd overall pick. The Colts were a 4-12 team with a new head coach.

The Colts traded out, acquired a number of picks, fixed their line, added 2 All Pros in a single draft. Their 2nd year GM opted to not uproot the team and spent conservatively.

The Colts won 10 games, won a playoff game.

The Giants 1st year GM reportedly didn't field offers for a trade back. Drafted a running back, and some nice complementary players with good potential.

Then the Giants went 5-11.


But that's 2 more wins than 2017, a 67% improvement. So that's a real, material impact.

At least that's what I've been told my many here who insist Barkley was a brilliant pick... ;)
Stunning improvement  
Jimmy Googs : 10/9/2019 8:04 pm : link
I wonder what it would be if normalized for playing backup or rookie QBs in 2018?

Ahh forget it...no need to dig any further
It..  
FatMan in Charlotte : 10/9/2019 8:07 pm : link
wasn't more than just a straightforward point:

Quote:
Well, since this is addressed to me, let me say this is very funny. You act like the Giants hiring Accorsi was like they hired Deloitte.

But you damn well there was nothing neutral about the Giants/Mara bringing Accorsi in. He understands "Giants Way-speak" and was brought in to steer Mara to find the best candidate to satisfy the "Giants Way" requisite.

You're a smart guy. To interpret in any other way is pretty naive...


It isn't rocket science.

One team talked about doing the right things hired Accorsi as a consultant. One team doing things the "wrong way" did it too. And using him as a consultant is widely viewed as a sham.

But this isn't new. BBI likes to exaggerate other team's success. The Colts and Niners are this year's faves. The Browns were the offseason darlings.

And not let us forget the awesomeness last year was going to bring for the Jags. TC's revenge!!

I interpret Accorsi being used as a consultant as just that. He advised who to hire.
Missed this little nugget the first time but since you continue to  
Jimmy Googs : 10/9/2019 10:25 pm : link
want to endlessly defend Gettleman/FO Decisions and say posters are way too hard on him and exaggerate the reasons why, I now will respond to it.

Quote:
People treated the Stewart signing like the worst move ever made and one that would cripple the franchise.


The Jonathan Stewart signing was widely criticized but not for the reasons you state, mis-characterizing for effect as usual, that posters said it would "cripple the franchise". Posters jumped on it because it made no sense whatsoever for numerous reasons and, as such, gave some insight into DG's and the Front Office's twisted mindset as to how they saw the state of the team and what to address first and foremost.

Stewart was no longer a productive player...flat out. So much that, but for a NY Giant phone call, his next best option was sitting on his couch in retirement. Even moreso that he plays a position that should have been one of the last one that NYGs needed to concern themselves with while examining the roster due to its positional value and plentiful supply via draft or undrafted free agents.

So what does Gettleman do in one of his very first decisions as the new GM of the Giants to show he has a grasp of the situation...he signs Stewart to a several million dollar guaranteed deal. A deal he didn't need to give in March, nor one he needed to offer at that level unless the market for 31-year old running backs was drying up.

It simply was an example of what not to do.

With some basic-level foresight, DG could have waited to see how the draft played out and looked to sign any number of running back choices in the early summer, or even signed Stewart but to a far more reasonable contract that matched his bottomed-out value. Veteran minimum plus some kickers if he actually plays.

But DG missed it...he made a bad decision. Not really because of the money (which should have been lower), but because he completely misread 1) this player's ability to still perform 2) the position he plays in terms of resource value on a roster 3) that a deep restructuring typically does not require 31-year old RBs as part of digging itself out of trouble.

So if DG will miss on the underlying concepts of 1-3 above with a player/contract like Stewart, fans should worry it will happen again when the stakes and money are far greater.

That is why posters treated this move as such a bad one. But keep on using it as an example of why everybody "hates" DG so much...it actually only give more insight as to your defensive-takes than anything we have against DG...
There's a lot of revisionist history..  
FatMan in Charlotte : 10/9/2019 10:36 pm : link
there. When Stewart was signed, he became the only veteran RB on the team. Barkley was not yet drafted and Gettleman signed a player he was familiar with and who was expendable because of McCaffery.

it was a miss. To make it an indictment of his decision-making as if it is pervasive to all of his decisions is a ridiculous leap. It is like people railing about Tanney. It is grasping to minutia that doesn't have nearly the impact you are making it out to be. Since the market for declining RB's is out there, why would the Chiefs snap up McCoy? Why would the Bills get Frank Gore?

Stewart is a perfect example of a mistake that gets way blown out of proportion. So much so that you just wrote several paragraphs about it - mostly making assumptions and misstating the RB situation prior to Barkley being drafted.
RE: FFS  
mrvax : 10/9/2019 10:38 pm : link
In comment 14618644 allstarjim said:
Quote:
This team just found a franchise QB. Know how hard that is? This should be a year of celebration.

Better times ahead for Giants' fans. Hell, even conceding a loss before the game is even played. If this defense can get after Tom Brady, perhaps we can force a couple of turnovers and change the game. The challenge will be stopping the run.


Thanks, Jim. We may have hit the jackpot. DJ sure looks the part. His lows are not insurmountable and his highs thus far have been outstanding. Actually having a (future) franchise QB is such a difficult piece of a consistently good NFL team.
RE: There's a lot of revisionist history..  
Jimmy Googs : 10/9/2019 10:52 pm : link
In comment 14620560 FatMan in Charlotte said:
Quote:
there. When Stewart was signed, he became the only veteran RB on the team. Barkley was not yet drafted and Gettleman signed a player he was familiar with and who was expendable because of McCaffery.

it was a miss. To make it an indictment of his decision-making as if it is pervasive to all of his decisions is a ridiculous leap. It is like people railing about Tanney. It is grasping to minutia that doesn't have nearly the impact you are making it out to be. Since the market for declining RB's is out there, why would the Chiefs snap up McCoy? Why would the Bills get Frank Gore?

Stewart is a perfect example of a mistake that gets way blown out of proportion. So much so that you just wrote several paragraphs about it - mostly making assumptions and misstating the RB situation prior to Barkley being drafted.


Its not revisionist nor is it an indictment of all of DG's decisions to don't exaggerate once again. Its an example of why posters criticized the deal and the concerns they had with NYG & now possibly DG. And it wouldn't be brought up unless you want to keep using it to support your defensive-agenda like you did above.

Everybody knew the Giants needed to add a running back(s), but that doesn't mean address it moronically...and that is what is was.

I am sure the locker-room issues and the short-yardage plays were addressed or whatever you used at the time to support the move...
Stewart  
fkap : 10/9/2019 11:33 pm : link
is just a poster child for the many misses under the Gettleman regime.

I don't think many are bashing DG for his effort in rebuilding. He's putting in massive effort. The problem is that the effort has not yet paid dividends and a payoff is not yet in sight.

Maybe things will gel, and the 1st/2nd yr players will step up to the plate and make a solid (hopefully better) core. Maybe the FAs will start panning out.

Until all that happens, though, and things look like we're heading in the right direction, a lot of people are not going to give the regime the benefit of the doubt.

DG is going to be here a while. Shurmur likely has another year before the seat starts getting hot. The coordinators/position coaches probably overall are safe for another year. might as well just settle in for the ride.

Much was said about how picking the wrong QB could set the team back 5 years. The same can be said about picking the wrong regime. Unfortunately, the view so far for many is that we're looking at the inside of a wrong regime. Maybe those of us who see things that way are wrong/impatient, but until the clouds lift and the sun shines, it'll be a hard sell to change our minds.
This thread has crossed the Rubicon...  
bw in dc : 10/9/2019 11:55 pm : link
Googs with an eight paragraph post.

He must be exhausted...;)
Look we all have our bad nights  
Jimmy Googs : 10/10/2019 12:02 am : link
I will revert to short, pithy comments again when the mood strikes...
RE: BBS  
.McL. : 10/10/2019 12:46 am : link
In comment 14620422 Jimmy Googs said:
Quote:
I think the debate is better couched not that Barkley was a bad pick, but he was the easy one. The better pick would be to find a player at a more valued position than running back, or trade it away for multiple picks (if available) since the team is in full restructuring mode and needs to improve almost everywhere.

At least itís my debate...

Exactly. That is my point as well...
RE: There's a lot of revisionist history..  
.McL. : 10/10/2019 12:53 am : link
In comment 14620560 FatMan in Charlotte said:
Quote:
there. When Stewart was signed, he became the only veteran RB on the team. Barkley was not yet drafted and Gettleman signed a player he was familiar with and who was expendable because of McCaffery.

it was a miss. To make it an indictment of his decision-making as if it is pervasive to all of his decisions is a ridiculous leap. It is like people railing about Tanney. It is grasping to minutia that doesn't have nearly the impact you are making it out to be. Since the market for declining RB's is out there, why would the Chiefs snap up McCoy? Why would the Bills get Frank Gore?

Stewart is a perfect example of a mistake that gets way blown out of proportion. So much so that you just wrote several paragraphs about it - mostly making assumptions and misstating the RB situation prior to Barkley being drafted.

The reason people point to, is it is the first example of a bad pattern... The same pattern exists with Ogletree, Omameh, and Tate off the top of me head.
Also to say you sit in the middle is laughable  
.McL. : 10/10/2019 1:14 am : link
Any criticism of the Giants you somehow flip into a criticism of DG personally, and defend him with everything you've got.

Sitting in the middle means that you can objectively assess both the good and the bad going on with the team.

For example:

Gettleman has done a better job actually picking players who may stick with the team longer than the previous regime. The jury is still out on this, but it seems that way right now. So give DG props for that.

DG has made some absolutely awful decisions on FA signings, as pointed out above...

DG was right to trade Beckham, (a move I agreed with at the time)

I'm not convinced that DG got as much as he could have for Beckham. But what he got he has made the most of, Peppers is starting to look like a SS, and Lawrence may be a beast. Again the jury is out.

I am convinced that it was monumentally bad to sign him to the deal he got only to trade him 6 months later.

DG made a good trade for Zeitler for Vernon.

DG was right to blow the team up, I think you will find overwhelming support of that.

When blowing the team up, there were a few cuts that maybe went a little too deep and now we find ourselves lacking at those positions. Relatively inexpensive players like Kennard come to mind.

Drafting Lauletta when the team had Webb, only to have both cut is a head scratcher.

And on Shurmur and Bettcher  
.McL. : 10/10/2019 1:15 am : link
Shurmur at times looks like he has a dynamic playbook, and can call some good plays.

Shurmur sometimes gets too cute with his play calling.

Shurmur seems to be doing a nice job bringing DJ along.

Under Shurmur and Hunter, the OL keeps making bad mistakes, they still have trouble picking up stunts, and it has been widely noted that there have been communication problems to the point of player frustration.

Shurmur has not done a good job managing the clock.

I actually like many of his calls to go for it on 4th down.

The defense under Bettcher has been truly awful. Players don't seem to understand their roles and are often caught out of position. The scheme that was supposed to be so dynamic seems anything but.

The players and the game plans seem ill prepared for the actual games, and that is an ongoing problem.

Some players are starting to look a little better, Lawrence, Baker, Peppers have all improved as the season has gone along. The real question is why did they all look so ill prepared to start the season.

The hiring of Bettcher and switching schemes witohout the proper personnel is another head scratcher.

I can go on. But that is somewhere in the middle. Pointing out both the good and the bad.
To be clear  
.McL. : 10/10/2019 1:33 am : link
Some of the moves DG made that may have cut too deep were not outright cuts. Some like Kennard who should have been an easy resign wasn't.
RE: ...  
Dnew15 : 10/10/2019 7:46 am : link
In comment 14620433 christian said:
Quote:
Personally I'll start liking Shurmur and Gettleman more when the Giants show they are legitimately competing for a playoff spot.

It's not the Colts 3-2 record this year that's drawing eyes.

Going into April of 2018 the Giants were a 3-13 team with a new head coach and the 2nd overall pick. The Colts were a 4-12 team with a new head coach.

The Colts traded out, acquired a number of picks, fixed their line, added 2 All Pros in a single draft. Their 2nd year GM opted to not uproot the team and spent conservatively.

The Colts won 10 games, won a playoff game.

The Giants 1st year GM reportedly didn't field offers for a trade back. Drafted a running back, and some nice complementary players with good potential.

Then the Giants went 5-11.


That's a little misleading...the Colts had Andrew Luck
RE: RE: ...  
christian : 10/10/2019 8:46 am : link
In comment 14620716 Dnew15 said:
Quote:
In comment 14620433 christian said:


Quote:


Personally I'll start liking Shurmur and Gettleman more when the Giants show they are legitimately competing for a playoff spot.

It's not the Colts 3-2 record this year that's drawing eyes.

Going into April of 2018 the Giants were a 3-13 team with a new head coach and the 2nd overall pick. The Colts were a 4-12 team with a new head coach.

The Colts traded out, acquired a number of picks, fixed their line, added 2 All Pros in a single draft. Their 2nd year GM opted to not uproot the team and spent conservatively.

The Colts won 10 games, won a playoff game.

The Giants 1st year GM reportedly didn't field offers for a trade back. Drafted a running back, and some nice complementary players with good potential.

Then the Giants went 5-11.



That's a little misleading...the Colts had Andrew Luck


What's misleading? Andrew Luck and Eli Manning had nearly identical cap hits. The running story was Manning being handicapped by poor surroundings, specifically a poor offensive line. Both teams had fragile QB situations. Not to mention Manning ended up lasting longer than Luck.

The Giants general manager spent upward of 75M potential dollars to bolster the line and it arguably got worse for half the season.

The Colts from a slightly less strong position went and fixed their line.
.  
arcarsenal : 10/10/2019 8:54 am : link
Andrew Luck played behind a giant turnstile for almost his entire career. Last season was literally the first time in probably his entire career that he actually got plus OL play.

I think what IND wound up with along their OL has excellent and exactly what I'd love for NYG to have.

But, it's certainly a bit misleading to compare NYG/IND last year when the difference in QB play was as large as it was. 2018 Andrew Luck was one of the best QB's in the league. Eli wasn't even close.

Swap the QB's and those records aren't holding true.
RE: Also to say you sit in the middle is laughable  
ron mexico : 10/10/2019 8:56 am : link
In comment 14620655 .McL. said:
Quote:
Any criticism of the Giants you somehow flip into a criticism of DG personally, and defend him with everything you've got.

Sitting in the middle means that you can objectively assess both the good and the bad going on with the team.

For example:

Gettleman has done a better job actually picking players who may stick with the team longer than the previous regime. The jury is still out on this, but it seems that way right now. So give DG props for that.

DG has made some absolutely awful decisions on FA signings, as pointed out above...

DG was right to trade Beckham, (a move I agreed with at the time)

I'm not convinced that DG got as much as he could have for Beckham. But what he got he has made the most of, Peppers is starting to look like a SS, and Lawrence may be a beast. Again the jury is out.

I am convinced that it was monumentally bad to sign him to the deal he got only to trade him 6 months later.

DG made a good trade for Zeitler for Vernon.

DG was right to blow the team up, I think you will find overwhelming support of that.

When blowing the team up, there were a few cuts that maybe went a little too deep and now we find ourselves lacking at those positions. Relatively inexpensive players like Kennard come to mind.

Drafting Lauletta when the team had Webb, only to have both cut is a head scratcher.


Vert fair assessment in my opinion.

I would add one more, when blowing up the team, it makes no sense to hold on to your expensive declining QB
RE: .  
christian : 10/10/2019 9:32 am : link
In comment 14620770 arcarsenal said:
Quote:
Andrew Luck played behind a giant turnstile for almost his entire career. Last season was literally the first time in probably his entire career that he actually got plus OL play.

I think what IND wound up with along their OL has excellent and exactly what I'd love for NYG to have.

But, it's certainly a bit misleading to compare NYG/IND last year when the difference in QB play was as large as it was. 2018 Andrew Luck was one of the best QB's in the league. Eli wasn't even close.

Swap the QB's and those records aren't holding true.


If the Giants had made the improvement the Colts made to their line in 2018, and no Barkley how many games difference do you think it makes?

It's not about swapping the QBs, it's about swapping the players that were the fruit of a very productive trade and the associated moves and savings.

I believe Gettleman when he says the game is won in the trenches. One viable option was to make a move similar to what the Colts did and solidify the line.

Simply put I would much rather have 2 foundational offensive lineman than a great running back.
.  
arcarsenal : 10/10/2019 9:51 am : link
It's not about the QB's specifically, but the QB's played very significant roles in the outcomes of the teams - so, you can't just remove them from the equation. Luck wasn't just a passenger last year, he was the driving force behind the entire offense. He was one of the best QB's in football.

We also have a tendency to operate in a vacuum where we assume moves other teams made could have been made identically here or that things would have played out the same exact way in an alternate reality.

I think most people would gladly take two foundational offensive linemen than a RB, but we have a way of simplifying things here to an almost unreasonable degree and take all sorts of leaps in reasoning where we just assume Gettleman could have made the same exact deal and would have wound up with the same exact players and that those players would have performed the same exact way here and that nothing else would have been different.

That's not reality.

I agree with the general premise; I like what the Colts have done. I am and have been a broken record regarding the offensive line here - I want them to keep dumping assets into it and make it the strength of the team.

But, we're quick to forget while we're lauding the Colts for the OL they've put together that for almost all of Andrew Luck's career, they had mish-mash units in front of him that were criminally bad and basically ended his career prematurely because he was running for his life on nearly every dropback.

So, for all the talk about NYG being in year 17 of their rebuild or whatever, it's not really fair to paint Indy as this model franchise all of a sudden in terms of how to quickly fix your offensive line. They had a really, really bad one for years.. It took them a long time to get here.

We can't unabashedly heap praise onto the Colts and then turn around and spit in the face of the people preaching patience here. That doesn't really work.
...  
christian : 10/10/2019 10:28 am : link
Both the Giants and Colts have had shitty lines forever. With hopefully an uncommon top 5 draft pick, the Colts chose to multiply that pick and focus directly on their line.

I'm not saying the Giants could have done exactly what the Colts did. I'm just saying I prefer what they did. And I don't think it's wild a stretch to think the Giants could have done something similar.

.  
arcarsenal : 10/10/2019 10:42 am : link
Sure, but it's also not wild to see the Giants having a top 10 pick again next year... maybe it'll be top 5. Why can't they do the same thing?

It's like the whole QB thing from the same 2018 draft.

The argument all last year wasn't this - it was that we should have taken a QB, that we were crazy for punting on this generational QB class, missed our chance, etc.

Then we wound up with the QB the very next year and most fans seem to be fairly happy with who it is.

So, now it's morphing into an argument that we should have instead traded down and stocked the offensive line. People keep changing what they think the Giants should have done in a past draft based on the way things are playing out in successive years. It's an exercise in futility.

Barkley continues to be the focus when he shouldn't and doesn't need to be. Having Saquon and a plus OL isn't a mutually exclusive proposition. We didn't forego the opportunity to build a strong offensive line just because we drafted Barkley - just like we didn't forego the opportunity to find a franchise QB when many were saying we did throughout last season.

Dallas took Elliott 4th overall; all of these fallacies about not being able to build a competitive team when you draft a RB that high should go out the window by watching them. The difference between Dallas and the Giants is that Dallas has handled the other areas of their roster better and also don't have one GM trying to clean up a mess the last one left behind.

Be smarter in free agency, continue to draft well and the team will be competitive. We don't need to make Barkley the poster child for why NYG aren't a good team right now.

We're not a good team because we had several zero-yield drafts and made some crappy decisions in free agency. Not because we drafted Barkley 2nd overall last year.
Colts starting OL  
Dnew15 : 10/10/2019 11:23 am : link
Castonzo LT 1st rd pick in '11
Nelson LG 1st rd pick in '18
Kelly C 1st rd pick in '16
Glowinski RG FA '17 - cut by Sea - 4th rd pick '15
Smith RT - 2nd pick in '18

I'm not sure what comparisons you can draw to what the NYG have now with the way the colts went about building their OL.

3/5 of the OL starting now was there before the new regime took over and they took OL in '18, granted, both guys are really good if not great players.

DG and PS inherited literally a pile of crap. None of those guys are left.

Blaming Reese and past drafting is easy and comfortable  
Go Terps : 10/10/2019 11:38 am : link
But Reese wasn't the guy that decided to overpay Solder and Ogeltree. Nor was he the guy that let his head coach publicly treat a rookie 4th round QB like shit. Nor did he commit the errors of paying Beckham to trade him, and paying Eli to bench him...these last two decisions were stupid on a galactic level; the pitfalls were easily visible but ignored nonetheless. Just incredibly naive and lacking logical, objective reasoning.

There's a deeper problem than the years of poor drafting, and that is this: the Giants' don't know who and what they are. The self-scout poorly, if they even do it at all. They don't understand why they lose when they lose, or why they win when they win. They don't have an accurate assessment of the larger picture...if they did, the Beckham and Eli errors would never have happened.

People keep talking about the arrow pointing up, and I agree that some of their young players look promising. But that won't matter if they can't accurately and honestly assess who and what they are. An organizational timeline in the NFL isn't a sine wave...bad years don't necessarily presage good years.

This team has made some really stupid mistakes since Reese left; the reason they keep being rehashed and discussed is because the people that made those mistakes are still running the team, and the football they're giving us is so poor that there is little else to talk about.

If you're still blaming Reese you're missing the bigger picture, just like the Giants are.
RE: Colts starting OL  
christian : 10/10/2019 11:48 am : link
In comment 14620993 Dnew15 said:
Quote:
Castonzo LT 1st rd pick in '11
Nelson LG 1st rd pick in '18
Kelly C 1st rd pick in '16
Glowinski RG FA '17 - cut by Sea - 4th rd pick '15
Smith RT - 2nd pick in '18

I'm not sure what comparisons you can draw to what the NYG have now with the way the colts went about building their OL.

3/5 of the OL starting now was there before the new regime took over and they took OL in '18, granted, both guys are really good if not great players.

DG and PS inherited literally a pile of crap. None of those guys are left.

When April came ended the Giants factually could have ended up with a line for 2018 that was:

LT - Solder
RG - Nelson
C - Halopio
RG - Omameh
RT - Smith

That's not a far fetched fantasy, that's a complete factual possibility. This has nothing to do with replacing crap, this was completely within Gettleman's control with the resources he either did employ or had the ability to employ.

Maybe Omameh sucks no matter what, maybe Halopio still gets hurt. But that's a substantially better offensive line than what the Giants dragged out last year.
RE: RE: Colts starting OL  
Dnew15 : 10/10/2019 12:00 pm : link
In comment 14621037 christian said:
Quote:
In comment 14620993 Dnew15 said:


Quote:


Castonzo LT 1st rd pick in '11
Nelson LG 1st rd pick in '18
Kelly C 1st rd pick in '16
Glowinski RG FA '17 - cut by Sea - 4th rd pick '15
Smith RT - 2nd pick in '18

I'm not sure what comparisons you can draw to what the NYG have now with the way the colts went about building their OL.

3/5 of the OL starting now was there before the new regime took over and they took OL in '18, granted, both guys are really good if not great players.

DG and PS inherited literally a pile of crap. None of those guys are left.



When April came ended the Giants factually could have ended up with a line for 2018 that was:

LT - Solder
RG - Nelson
C - Halopio
RG - Omameh
RT - Smith

That's not a far fetched fantasy, that's a complete factual possibility. This has nothing to do with replacing crap, this was completely within Gettleman's control with the resources he either did employ or had the ability to employ.

Maybe Omameh sucks no matter what, maybe Halopio still gets hurt. But that's a substantially better offensive line than what the Giants dragged out last year.


Sure - I agree the OL would be better wit Nelson and Smith (I remember Sy being all over him) - but that doesn't necessarily mean they would have won more games or been in better shape long term this year than last.

It just means that the OL would probably be better.

To you point though, I think the Giants will take several OL in the upcoming draft. Re-tooling the OL (and improving the depth) is the #2 need on this team behind some defensive play makers.
Jujst curious..  
FatMan in Charlotte : 10/10/2019 12:05 pm : link
as to what the narrative becomes if the Giants are competitive next season.

I fully understand why people have frustration with the losing seasons, but there are two things at play also:

1) Not enough realization at the effort needed to turn the team around. You can't ignore what Reese did (and I pin it more on Ross). They left a roster devoid of any home-grown talent. It isn't something you just magically erase. It was a historic failure to not have players on the roster from a whole swath of drafts. That isn't hyperbole - the stretch of drafts was unmatched in league history.

2) Expecting perfection in the moves and simplifying things as if there is a blueprint of a model to follow.

So it causes the value of draft picks to be questioned. It causes all FA signings to be considered unecessary and underperforming. Hell, it even leads to comments that cutting bait with an often injured player was an "easy resign". And a lot of the moves in the past two years are judged swiftly and harshly without patience or even trying to figure out what happens in the alternative.

arc was dead on. When Barkley was selected, the overwhelming response was that the Giants simply couldn't afford to not take a QB there. In fact, it has been a situation that some has referred to as being handed to us on a silver platter. a move we had to make. But now that argument is shifting not to the QB discussion - but to the OL or pass rusher discussion. Could that be because the other QB's haven't exactly been fantastic?

Even the signing of Beckham to trade him has been called a fireable offense. But what would the take have been if an unsigned Beckham played the year out and left for aonly a compensatory pick or was attempted to be traded without leverage for a far less package? I'm assuming it wouldn't be a glowing review. Keep in mind, Gettleman took shit for not trading Collins.

Gettleman hasn't been perfect, and even if he had, I'm not sure the results would be vastly different. But what continually is happening that his moves are being called successes or failures immediately and people are going to great lengths to talk about how we are destined to have several years of poor football while other teams are rising quickly (even if those other teams have taken 5-7 years to get to this point too).
FMIC  
Go Terps : 10/10/2019 12:14 pm : link
Quote:
Even the signing of Beckham to trade him has been called a fireable offense. But what would the take have been if an unsigned Beckham played the year out and left for aonly a compensatory pick or was attempted to be traded without leverage for a far less package? I'm assuming it wouldn't be a glowing review. Keep in mind, Gettleman took shit for not trading Collins.


On Beckham - my take would have been why wasn't he traded earlier? If we believe what we hear, Shurmur had to convince Gettleman to keep him. "I can work with him" is what we heard. So Gettleman was considering moving Beckham in spring 2018 (rumors were circulating, if you remember), but Shurmur convinced him to make him the richest WR in the NFL? The question shouldn't be what if we didn't sign Beckham...it should be why wasn't he traded between spring 2018 and the trade deadline in fall 2018?

On Collins - Gettleman didn't take any shit from me on that. I stated repeatedly that I wanted all of Beckham, Collins, Vernon, Harrison and others gone. Losers, each and every one. Not a popular view at the time, but generally accepted now that they're no longer Giants.
I just wrote the threat to say that I am frustrated  
Essex : 10/10/2019 12:21 pm : link
never meant it to be some autopsy on the team. I was frustrated that we had injuries to the very players that would be helpful in us evaluating Jones. Tonight, he will be without RB1 and RB2, without WR1, and Tight End 1. Given that we have lost so much since Hurricane Sandy it is just frustrating for me that when we start to see positive it just gets taken away from us with injuries. I had no expectation that we would win a lot of games this year or that we would seriously compete for a playoff spot (although I have to admit I did hold out some hope if we split the Vikings/Pat games we could because our schedule is not really that hard).

Fwiw, my take on Gettleman is really the standard account by many fans. His drafts show a lot of promise, his FA/trade signings have been less than stellar (although I do go back and forth on the OBJ trade and do think it might work out for us in the end), but I think overall he has us trending in the right direction. Whether we are, in fact, going in the right direction will be demonstrated over the next year or so and most likely barring major injury to Jones by the end of 2020. Until then, I prefer to give him space to let him rebuild the team as he sees fit.
It is a fair question..  
FatMan in Charlotte : 10/10/2019 12:25 pm : link
on why Beckham wasn't traded earlier. But we have been put into one of those scenarios where the state of the team was so bad, that anything less than perfection fails to move the needle.

We don't know why he wasn't traded. Maybe they wanted too much value in him. Maybe they wanted to keep his talent. But in the end, he was moved for fair compensation and only a short-term hit to the cap.

There's a wide gulf between perfection and incompetence, but Gettleman has been directly called incompetent and I don't think he's ever been called perfect. Despite having past results of an above average GM.

Some of that is frustration - but some of that is also rampant stupidity.

Of course you know why Beckham wasn't traded  
Go Terps : 10/10/2019 12:38 pm : link
Because the fans loved him and that matters to Mara. It's the same damn reason they brought back Eli. In both instances they made big decisions based on what they hoped would happen instead of what was likely to be the actual truth.

They hoped Beckham would grow up and paid him accordingly. He turned out to just be an asshole. $16M in 2019 cap space gone.

They hoped Eli had one more run in him, and they hoped the team around him was good enough to support him. But inexplicably they didn't use the #6 pick overall to help support Eli. Eli turned out to be done. $17M in 2019 cap space gone.

And now the team around Jones isn't good enough to support him in part because $33M in cap space isn't on the field. And yeah, we got Peppers, Lawrence, and Ximenes for Beckham...but we could have had that + $16M in cap space had we just traded him before we signed him.

When I look at this team I don't see a clear and consistent vision or strategy. I see a GM who should probably just be the Director of College Scouting, and I see a head coach who never should have risen above offensive coordinator. The strong leadership that results in a clear overall comprehensive plan is not there.
Beckham..  
FatMan in Charlotte : 10/10/2019 12:45 pm : link
wasn't traded because the fans loved him????

He wasn't traded because it would've been fairly groundbreaking to trade a player of his talent so early in a career.

It was a Mara directive? Jesus.
Just continued exaggeration that everybody is running  
Jimmy Googs : 10/10/2019 12:48 pm : link
around calling DG incompetent. How many posters continue to indicate they see both good and bad with is moves before you stop thinking everybody is throwing him under the bus?

Even good GMs get questioned and second guessed, so what the hell do you think is going to happen in the hyper-sensitive world of NYC and a team that has been largely a poor performer for a decade.

Particularly when there is more than enough evidence to show questionable moves and poor timing from a new incoming GM that should have seen a declining QB and a team in need of a deep restructuring before he walked into his office...

RE: Beckham..  
Go Terps : 10/10/2019 12:49 pm : link
In comment 14621148 FatMan in Charlotte said:
Quote:
wasn't traded because the fans loved him????

He wasn't traded because it would've been fairly groundbreaking to trade a player of his talent so early in a career.

It was a Mara directive? Jesus.


I'm not saying it was a Mara directive. I'm saying that Mara's one of 6 or 7 voices running the team, and Mara unquestionably weighs fan and media reaction on big decisions.

Beckham was a popular player (funny how everyone hates him now when the only thing about him that ever changed was the jersey), and that matters to Mara. That's one of Mara's flaws.
RE: FMIC  
.McL. : 10/10/2019 12:49 pm : link
In comment 14621073 Go Terps said:
Quote:


Quote:


Even the signing of Beckham to trade him has been called a fireable offense. But what would the take have been if an unsigned Beckham played the year out and left for aonly a compensatory pick or was attempted to be traded without leverage for a far less package? I'm assuming it wouldn't be a glowing review. Keep in mind, Gettleman took shit for not trading Collins.



On Beckham - my take would have been why wasn't he traded earlier? If we believe what we hear, Shurmur had to convince Gettleman to keep him. "I can work with him" is what we heard. So Gettleman was considering moving Beckham in spring 2018 (rumors were circulating, if you remember), but Shurmur convinced him to make him the richest WR in the NFL? The question shouldn't be what if we didn't sign Beckham...it should be why wasn't he traded between spring 2018 and the trade deadline in fall 2018?

On Collins - Gettleman didn't take any shit from me on that. I stated repeatedly that I wanted all of Beckham, Collins, Vernon, Harrison and others gone. Losers, each and every one. Not a popular view at the time, but generally accepted now that they're no longer Giants.


I never gave DG shit for Collins either.

You referenced my post about "easy resign", which I think Kennard should have been. Yes he'd had some injuries, but he had shown real ability at position where we were devoid of talent, and at the time needed an extra player moving to the 3-4. He would not have been an expensive resign.


You go on to talk about a "shift" in the discussion from a QB to OL. To be clear, I have never shifted, I never wanted any of the QBs that year. I wanted to trade down and target OLs. I am also one of, if not the primary person who has been pushing that narrative. For me it was never a shift...
Huh??  
FatMan in Charlotte : 10/10/2019 12:58 pm : link
Exaggeration??

Quote:
Just continued exaggeration that everybody is running
Jimmy Googs : 12:48 pm : link : reply
around calling DG incompetent


I didn't say everyone is running around calling him incompetent, I said he has been called incompetent. He's also been said to have made "fireable offenses".

But nice try creating hyperbole where none is intimated.
Okay backtrack...whatever  
Jimmy Googs : 10/10/2019 1:05 pm : link
If you didnít intimate it then why even mention it? Your MO is often to extrapolate a few posters (who you donít respect anyway) opinions and include it in your rants to embellish. As if BBI needs to be aware there are both irrational and rational posters...some of which both include contrarians I guess...
RE: Of course you know why Beckham wasn't traded  
Dnew15 : 10/10/2019 1:17 pm : link
In comment 14621127 Go Terps said:
Quote:
Because the fans loved him and that matters to Mara. It's the same damn reason they brought back Eli. In both instances they made big decisions based on what they hoped would happen instead of what was likely to be the actual truth.

They hoped Beckham would grow up and paid him accordingly. He turned out to just be an asshole. $16M in 2019 cap space gone.

They hoped Eli had one more run in him, and they hoped the team around him was good enough to support him. But inexplicably they didn't use the #6 pick overall to help support Eli. Eli turned out to be done. $17M in 2019 cap space gone.

And now the team around Jones isn't good enough to support him in part because $33M in cap space isn't on the field. And yeah, we got Peppers, Lawrence, and Ximenes for Beckham...but we could have had that + $16M in cap space had we just traded him before we signed him.

When I look at this team I don't see a clear and consistent vision or strategy. I see a GM who should probably just be the Director of College Scouting, and I see a head coach who never should have risen above offensive coordinator. The strong leadership that results in a clear overall comprehensive plan is not there.


I agree with most of this post.

I also think that the Mara/Tisch ownership group won't just take DG/PS word for it all at the jump. There's got to be clear and obvious evidence that it's not working, and in defense of DG and PS - they had to make a deal with the devil to get the job (agree at the start they would do everything they could to win with what they had and promise that they wouldn't just tear it all down and make it an obvious rebuild b/c they could sell tickets with Eli/OBJ).

To be fair to ownership - Eli has been counted out as dead before only to make some magical Super Bowl runs...twice.

And it's hard to just dump talent and OBJ was as talented as they get.

So I get the hope - even though the evidence was pretty glaring that it was time to move on.
RE: RE: Beckham..  
Dnew15 : 10/10/2019 1:19 pm : link
In comment 14621155 Go Terps said:
Quote:
In comment 14621148 FatMan in Charlotte said:


Quote:


wasn't traded because the fans loved him????

He wasn't traded because it would've been fairly groundbreaking to trade a player of his talent so early in a career.

It was a Mara directive? Jesus.



I'm not saying it was a Mara directive. I'm saying that Mara's one of 6 or 7 voices running the team, and Mara unquestionably weighs fan and media reaction on big decisions.

Beckham was a popular player (funny how everyone hates him now when the only thing about him that ever changed was the jersey), and that matters to Mara. That's one of Mara's flaws.


You forgot to add the bottom line to his factors on decision making - fan and media reaction in addition to sales and $$$ coming in.
I'm sure the Giants ownership have marketers and advertisers  
ron mexico : 10/10/2019 1:22 pm : link
in their ear who like the visibility that OBJ and Eli bring.

Could have played a part, more likely for OBJ than Eli
Glad you didn't intimate that the Board thinks he's incompetent  
Jimmy Googs : 10/10/2019 1:25 pm : link
- Reading this board makes it sound like Gettleman caused most of the issues and is making no good moves to fix the mess he was given.

- Gettleman is considered "backward thinking" and too tied to the organization.

- But around here - everyone else seems to be doing it right and the Giants aren't, including draft strategy and personnel moves.

- How many season does Gettleman get attributed to him that weren't his fault??

- The vitriol he takes he is way over the top in relation to the effort he's made to rebuild the roster.

- He's been disliked by some since Day 1 because of the way he was hired.

- He's mocked for a flippant comment about analytics

- And there are people here who whole heartedly believe Gettleman should be fired.

- Gettleman has been directly called incompetent and I don't think he's ever been called perfect.
FMiC says...  
bw in dc : 10/10/2019 1:31 pm : link
Quote:
arc was dead on. When Barkley was selected, the overwhelming response was that the Giants simply couldn't afford to not take a QB there. In fact, it has been a situation that some has referred to as being handed to us on a silver platter. a move we had to make. But now that argument is shifting not to the QB discussion - but to the OL or pass rusher discussion. Could that be because the other QB's haven't exactly been fantastic?


Overwhelming? No. The better debate, in my eyes, was/has been whether investing the 2nd pick in a RB was prudent. And that has branched out into what other positions were wiser investments at #2 - QB, OL, DE, TE, etc.

So I find this narrative a reverse spin move to say Barkley was the right move because we may have landed the QB in Jones a year later. So this affirms the new theory, adopted by the Gettlemanites, that going RB first then QB with high first round picks is reasonable as long as you nail the QB on the back end.
Gettlemanites  
Jimmy Googs : 10/10/2019 1:39 pm : link
i like that one...
Also, THe thing witht he Colts  
.McL. : 10/10/2019 1:47 pm : link
The reason the Colts came up was that they did exactly what some of us saying that trading out of #2 and using some of the resulting picks to target the OL. And it worked out well for them.

As a single data point it validates the the idea of trading down and targeting OL was possible to foresee and a valid path at the time of the draft.

Overall the Colts are still rebuilding as well. Their defense is as bad as ours (except for the KC game). Somehow bringing them up to show that they handled that particular draft move well, somehow morphed into they are blueprint the Giants should emulate, and that is not a good narrative. Lets just stick to the Trade down and target OL move.
Last year the Colts had  
Dnew15 : 10/10/2019 2:04 pm : link
the #11 ranked defense in the NFL.

I'll admit I didn't like the SB pick at the time - I wanted one of the QBs. In hindsight, I'm glad they didn't.

There's nothing about Mayfield, Allen, Darnold or Rosen that gives me buyer's remorse.

The other thing I'll tell you is that you have to have a partner to trade back in the draft...who did the Colts make that deal with??? You think that same trade was on the table with the Giants?
RE: Beckham..  
christian : 10/10/2019 2:08 pm : link
In comment 14621148 FatMan in Charlotte said:
Quote:
wasn't traded because the fans loved him????

He wasn't traded because it would've been fairly groundbreaking to trade a player of his talent so early in a career.

It was a Mara directive? Jesus.


I think it's naive to believe fan (customer) sentiment isn't a big part of Mara's decision making rubric.

There's plenty of circumstantial evidence by way of his own comments about Manning and Beckham to infer Mara's feelings for players resonates in the building.

Mara in that sense is not Gettleman.
Alot of stuff going on in this thread.  
Matt M. : 10/10/2019 2:16 pm : link
I will say, first of all, this season isn't a waste yet. Granted, I don't have delusions of a good season. But, from what I have seen thus far, this is a team that may be competitive enough to at least keep things interesting. Jones is also a QB that so far has looked like the kind of guy who can keep us in some games, especially when Barkley is back. The rest of this season became about grooming Jones and he stepped in and hit the ground running. That's a win in my book.

Second, I loved the Barkley pick last year and still do. First of all, I wasn't enamored with any of the QBs last year and nothing that has transpired to change my mind. I'd much rather have Barkley/Jones than Darnold/whoever they may have taken this year. I do not see a 10-15 year franchise QB in Darnold. I do think Jones has shown he may be.

Third, I don't know how much better of a market there would have been for OBJ earlier. I'm glad he is gone, and that is coming from a huge fan of his. Hell, 5 games in and Cleveland is rumored to be shopping him now.

I don't love Gettleman or Shurmer, but I do like Shurmer more than his predecessor and I like Gettleman better than the last 4 or 5 years we got from Reese. Thse guys inherited a roster devoid of talent. It wasn't just lack of depth. We had guys starting at some positions who would have had trouble making some other rosters at all. In two years they cleaned house, which is a good thing. They can be judged in another 1-2 years, as the roster takes more shape from their designs.
.  
arcarsenal : 10/10/2019 2:31 pm : link
It's certainly not all Reese's fault that we're in this position. But it's also not fair to just pretend zero-yield drafts won't set a team back badly - and we more or less had a few of them. That's extremely damaging.

The bit about the bad FA signings/offseason moves was also directed @ Gettleman moreso than Reese - he's made his share of mistakes.

It's a combination; but I don't think there's much sense in combining regimes and then looking at this as a 7-8 year linear failure. Gettleman was tasked with first cleaning up a large mess left behind, then he had to essentially create a new foundation and build something entirely different from the bottom up.

He's not executing it flawlessly and there are clear errors along the way - mostly in the way of mistake signings and some questionable handling of our cap dollars - but to correct and repair what the state of the roster was following the 2017 season, this was always going to need at least a couple of years.

On one hand, the approach in free agency appears to be suboptimal. On the other, the drafting seems to be vastly improving and is actually now producing some promising young players who can and should be part of a turnaround.

That said, I still think there's a reasonably clear path towards getting this team back in contention. I don't think Gettleman has FUBAR'd this rebuild to a point that will require someone else coming in and doing it all over again. I think he just has to get this next phase correct and it's crucial that he does - otherwise we won't take the next step forward.

Shurmur also may be a better coordinator than coach. As a tactician, he leaves a bit to be desired. So, for him to be the right guy to move forward with, I also think we need to see some real signs the rest of the way. I suspect he's reasonably safe for next year, but if we really struggle down the stretch and look bad/lose a lot of games, he shouldn't be.
arc - regarding Gettleman  
Go Terps : 10/10/2019 2:45 pm : link
Quote:
I think he just has to get this next phase correct and it's crucial that he does - otherwise we won't take the next step forward.


What phase is that, and what does "correct" mean? "Correct" can mean different things depending on the perspective. Gettleman is 68 years old and Shurmur might feel his seat getting warm..."correct" to them is whatever can be done to win in 2020. In that scenario, maybe we're paying Shaq Barrett and Jadeveon Clowney each like they're Khalil Mack.

They're not likely to be all that concerned with building anything sustainable following back to back 5 win seasons.

So let's say they spend money on big FAs with the goal of making a push in 2020...is that going to change the fact that Shurmur can't coach his way out of a paper bag? What happens when, after another lousy season in 2020, we have to hire a new head coach (and possibly new GM)? They're going to want to bring in their guys, which means they're going to do with Barrett and Clowney (or whomever the expensive 2020 FA bandaids are) what Gettleman already did with Vernon and Beckham. So that will mean more dead money in '21.

We have got to stop reacting to problems, and start actually building something sustainable. That ain't gonna happen with these two guys.
RE: .  
.McL. : 10/10/2019 2:50 pm : link
In comment 14621344 arcarsenal said:
Quote:
It's certainly not all Reese's fault that we're in this position. But it's also not fair to just pretend zero-yield drafts won't set a team back badly - and we more or less had a few of them. That's extremely damaging.

The bit about the bad FA signings/offseason moves was also directed @ Gettleman moreso than Reese - he's made his share of mistakes.

It's a combination; but I don't think there's much sense in combining regimes and then looking at this as a 7-8 year linear failure. Gettleman was tasked with first cleaning up a large mess left behind, then he had to essentially create a new foundation and build something entirely different from the bottom up.

He's not executing it flawlessly and there are clear errors along the way - mostly in the way of mistake signings and some questionable handling of our cap dollars - but to correct and repair what the state of the roster was following the 2017 season, this was always going to need at least a couple of years.

On one hand, the approach in free agency appears to be suboptimal. On the other, the drafting seems to be vastly improving and is actually now producing some promising young players who can and should be part of a turnaround.

That said, I still think there's a reasonably clear path towards getting this team back in contention. I don't think Gettleman has FUBAR'd this rebuild to a point that will require someone else coming in and doing it all over again. I think he just has to get this next phase correct and it's crucial that he does - otherwise we won't take the next step forward.

Shurmur also may be a better coordinator than coach. As a tactician, he leaves a bit to be desired. So, for him to be the right guy to move forward with, I also think we need to see some real signs the rest of the way. I suspect he's reasonably safe for next year, but if we really struggle down the stretch and look bad/lose a lot of games, he shouldn't be.

Good post arc.

I agree that DG hasn't completely FUBARed the rebuild, but some of his moves have slowed it down. He should get more time but he needs to get better as well. Half of what a GM does are the non-Draft moves.

I agree he will get another year, after that, he is either gone or on very thin ice if he doesn't show significant improvement.
McL  
Go Terps : 10/10/2019 2:54 pm : link
Quote:
I agree he will get another year, after that, he is either gone or on very thin ice if he doesn't show significant improvement.


If we've gotten to this point with a coach and/or GM, we should move on. We can't sit around hoping that these guys all of a sudden get better at their jobs for no reason.
Do you think that  
Dnew15 : 10/10/2019 2:55 pm : link
DG would survive a PS firing if it happened in the next year?

Or is it more likely they both go?
RE: arc - regarding Gettleman  
.McL. : 10/10/2019 2:57 pm : link
In comment 14621365 Go Terps said:
Quote:


Quote:


I think he just has to get this next phase correct and it's crucial that he does - otherwise we won't take the next step forward.



What phase is that, and what does "correct" mean? "Correct" can mean different things depending on the perspective. Gettleman is 68 years old and Shurmur might feel his seat getting warm..."correct" to them is whatever can be done to win in 2020. In that scenario, maybe we're paying Shaq Barrett and Jadeveon Clowney each like they're Khalil Mack.

They're not likely to be all that concerned with building anything sustainable following back to back 5 win seasons.

So let's say they spend money on big FAs with the goal of making a push in 2020...is that going to change the fact that Shurmur can't coach his way out of a paper bag? What happens when, after another lousy season in 2020, we have to hire a new head coach (and possibly new GM)? They're going to want to bring in their guys, which means they're going to do with Barrett and Clowney (or whomever the expensive 2020 FA bandaids are) what Gettleman already did with Vernon and Beckham. So that will mean more dead money in '21.

We have got to stop reacting to problems, and start actually building something sustainable. That ain't gonna happen with these two guys.


If Gettleman goes on a spending spree like Reese did in 2016, he should be fired on the spot. The Giants have a league average amount of cap space next year. They should be looking for younger vets who they can sign to reasonable contracts that don't mortgage the future. Anything else, you're right, it would be a sign of desperation.

RE: Do you think that  
Go Terps : 10/10/2019 2:59 pm : link
In comment 14621384 Dnew15 said:
Quote:
DG would survive a PS firing if it happened in the next year?

Or is it more likely they both go?


I don't think he should, but I could live with Gettleman being around after Shurmur. Gettleman at least is good at identifying college talent.

Shurmur on the other hand is incompetent. If the Giants fired him today I'd be fine with it. He should absolutely not be back in 2020.
.  
arcarsenal : 10/10/2019 2:59 pm : link
To me, there were/are 3 phases that needed to be addressed when Gettleman was hired. The first thing was to clear all of the bullshit and dead weight out of the locker room and give ourselves a cleaner slate to build upward from. There was virtually nothing after the 2017 season that warranted hanging onto.

The next key point was to get the QB here.

Now we need to actually accumulate talent and build the rest of the team without mortgaging the entire future to do it.

To get that 'correct', I'd say Gettleman needs to do a better job with the cap dollars. We have to stop handing out deals that turn into dead money. Almost all of these recent contracts are becoming that. We have space clearing out. It'd be good if we could learn from some past mistakes.

Smart contract - Markus Golden

Stupid contract - Nate Solder

More of the former, less of the latter.

Another strong draft goes without saying, that's another key component. I like the two drafts so far for the most part, so I have a little more confidence in this area.

I will also continue to hammer home the importance of finding not one, but two OT's as soon as humanly possible. Replacements for Solder and Remmers are urgently needed before we wind up spending 3-5 more years with horrendous tackle play.

Continue to pour resources into the offensive line, address the pass rush. That's a simple blueprint that has this team winning 10 games in the near future.
arc  
Go Terps : 10/10/2019 3:06 pm : link
We're in agreement on the types of FA contracts this team needs to be considering, but I'd be concerned that we're looking at more big deals this winter. Gettleman and Shurmur will know their asses may be on the line in 2020.

The time to move on is before they make those big moves.
And I'll reiterate  
Go Terps : 10/10/2019 3:08 pm : link
It wouldn't matter if we had the Chiefs' roster, because Shurmur is the head coach. Even if our FAs and draft picks hit this offseason it's not like Shurmur is taking this team anywhere.
RE: McL  
.McL. : 10/10/2019 3:10 pm : link
In comment 14621383 Go Terps said:
Quote:


Quote:


I agree he will get another year, after that, he is either gone or on very thin ice if he doesn't show significant improvement.



If we've gotten to this point with a coach and/or GM, we should move on. We can't sit around hoping that these guys all of a sudden get better at their jobs for no reason.


Well DG is 68, its true that expecting significant improvement on his own would be foolish.

Managing a group of people is a bit of an art. You need to use people for their strengths ans supplement their weaknesses. Perhaps the Giants should put some others around DG when it comes to FA and review these moves. More of a committee approach.

I certainly don't want a GM who feels like he is on the hot seat and making desperation moves. Plus, I think its worse to go back and churn the roster all over again. The odds of competing for a SB in the next 5 years is greater just moving forward (with DG at least), than rebooting again. I am not a big fan of DG as you know, but we are on the clock now with the SB and DJ picks.

Plus, I am being realistic. There is 0 chance DG is fired this year. And unless he completely loses the team, PS isn't getting fired this year either.
RE: RE: Do you think that  
.McL. : 10/10/2019 3:14 pm : link
In comment 14621391 Go Terps said:
Quote:
In comment 14621384 Dnew15 said:


Quote:


DG would survive a PS firing if it happened in the next year?

Or is it more likely they both go?



I don't think he should, but I could live with Gettleman being around after Shurmur. Gettleman at least is good at identifying college talent.

Shurmur on the other hand is incompetent. If the Giants fired him today I'd be fine with it. He should absolutely not be back in 2020.


I agree Shurmur's seat should be a lot warmer than DGs right now, and I wouldn't mind moving on from this coaching staff either. Moving on from DG would be more problematic.
.  
arcarsenal : 10/10/2019 3:15 pm : link
Fair concerns. I'll be pretty disappointed if Gettleman approaches this upcoming offseason the way Reese did in 2016.
.  
arcarsenal : 10/10/2019 3:19 pm : link
But I also agree with McL in that there's probably no chance in hell Gettleman is getting fired this year. Especially not now that most people are comfortable with the QB. I think Jones bought him some time.

Shurmur shouldn't get the same pass, though. If the coaching chops aren't there and he's not helping this team get better, we should be looking elsewhere.
Googs..  
FatMan in Charlotte : 10/10/2019 3:29 pm : link
are you actually saying that isn't an accurate description of what has been said???

Quote:
Glad you didn't intimate that the Board thinks he's incompetent
Jimmy Googs : 1:25 pm : link : reply
- Reading this board makes it sound like Gettleman caused most of the issues and is making no good moves to fix the mess he was given.

- Gettleman is considered "backward thinking" and too tied to the organization.

- But around here - everyone else seems to be doing it right and the Giants aren't, including draft strategy and personnel moves.

- How many season does Gettleman get attributed to him that weren't his fault??

- The vitriol he takes he is way over the top in relation to the effort he's made to rebuild the roster.

- He's been disliked by some since Day 1 because of the way he was hired.

- He's mocked for a flippant comment about analytics

- And there are people here who whole heartedly believe Gettleman should be fired.

- Gettleman has been directly called incompetent and I don't think he's ever been called perfect.
Don't know what you want me to say at this point...  
Jimmy Googs : 10/10/2019 4:03 pm : link
Your defense of Gettleman knows no bounds. So much that you think everybody on the Board thinks he is incompetent on everything he does which isn't true in the slightest.

You respond back that you didn't say "everybody" and I shouldn't intimate that.

Then I show you all the comments you posted intimating that very position on this thread alone.

Now you want me to agree that these opinions of yours are indeed the sentiments of an entire fan board?

Which is it man...do you think everybody hates DG or do you just hate everybody else that doesn't see it your way?
Not only..  
FatMan in Charlotte : 10/10/2019 4:17 pm : link
are those positions held here, they are said often. I didn't say everyone thinks he's incompetent, but he takes grief here daily.

I never said everyone hates Gettleman which you seem to somehow think those quotes indicate (why, I have no fucking clue), but you have people here calling him incompetent regularly.

You really can't be denying that.

And you really shouldn't wonder why I've defended Gettleman. It is the same premise as with Eli or any other person that the board piles onto. It's mostly one-sided and somehow frowned upon to take the pro-Giants position.

That why the cute little "Gettlemanite" comment is made, while that same poster uses Jints Central with regularity. It is why when Gettleman took the job, one jackass referred to him as DSG repeatedly. It is why people are called the Eli Fan Club.

You seem to portray that you have a balanced and objective view - but you don't. It's just pessimistic which is the warped perspective of many here believing that is the only way to portray things.
God I'd love to see the Giants go into Foxboro tonight....  
Britt in VA : 10/10/2019 4:26 pm : link
and pull off a supreme upset. That would just be perfect.
.  
Jimmy Googs : 10/10/2019 4:31 pm : link
Quote:
Which is it man...do you think everybody hates DG or do you just hate everybody else that doesn't see it your way?



It seems obvious now that the answer is both...
RE: God I'd love to see the Giants go into Foxboro tonight....  
Essex : 10/10/2019 4:33 pm : link
In comment 14621513 Britt in VA said:
Quote:
and pull off a supreme upset. That would just be perfect.

I think we are going to get killed, but it is the NFL after all and anything is possible!
RE: Not only..  
Big Blue '56 : 10/10/2019 6:06 pm : link
In comment 14621503 FatMan in Charlotte said:
Quote:
are those positions held here, they are said often. I didn't say everyone thinks he's incompetent, but he takes grief here daily.

I never said everyone hates Gettleman which you seem to somehow think those quotes indicate (why, I have no fucking clue), but you have people here calling him incompetent regularly.

You really can't be denying that.

And you really shouldn't wonder why I've defended Gettleman. It is the same premise as with Eli or any other person that the board piles onto. It's mostly one-sided and somehow frowned upon to take the pro-Giants position.

That why the cute little "Gettlemanite" comment is made, while that same poster uses Jints Central with regularity. It is why when Gettleman took the job, one jackass referred to him as DSG repeatedly. It is why people are called the Eli Fan Club.

You seem to portray that you have a balanced and objective view - but you don't. It's just pessimistic which is the warped perspective of many here believing that is the only way to portray things.


Oh wait, iím in the ďEli Fan ClubĒ and thatís without the Kool-Aid..
RE: .  
FatMan in Charlotte : 10/10/2019 6:27 pm : link
In comment 14621522 Jimmy Googs said:
Quote:


Quote:


Which is it man...do you think everybody hates DG or do you just hate everybody else that doesn't see it your way?




It seems obvious now that the answer is both...


Ironically - you keep trying to corner me into saying I'm talking about "everybody", but you consistently do the same thing. Trolling does make one hypocritical, though.


RE: God I'd love to see the Giants go into Foxboro tonight....  
Go Terps : 10/10/2019 6:27 pm : link
In comment 14621513 Britt in VA said:
Quote:
and pull off a supreme upset. That would just be perfect.


This is what we're reduced to...hoping the unlikely occurs.

That's what happens when organizational decisions are made based on hoping the unlikely occurs.
RE: God I'd love to see the Giants go into Foxboro tonight....  
Greg from LI : 10/10/2019 6:32 pm : link
In comment 14621513 Britt in VA said:
Quote:
and pull off a supreme upset. That would just be perfect.


RE: RE: .  
.McL. : 10/10/2019 7:41 pm : link
In comment 14621667 FatMan in Charlotte said:
Quote:
In comment 14621522 Jimmy Googs said:


Quote:




Quote:


Which is it man...do you think everybody hates DG or do you just hate everybody else that doesn't see it your way?




It seems obvious now that the answer is both...



Ironically - you keep trying to corner me into saying I'm talking about "everybody", but you consistently do the same thing. Trolling does make one hypocritical, though.


FMiC, the problem you have is that you take things that people say, twist them into a different context, make them more extreme than they were intended. Then you attack that twisted more extreme position with vengeance, often foul language, and filled with hyperbole.

Look at arc, he can see that there are valid criticisms of DG, PS and ownership. He may have a more forgiving perspective than some others, but he sees and generally agrees with the criticism. A reaction that is 180 degrees different from yours.

What's more is that you will stake out a position, taking such a hard stance against anybody who disagrees with you in the slightest, and is it any wonder that people describe you position with words like "everyone spews vitriol", or "they say it all the time", etc... Then you will claim innocence because you didn't use a specific word, when the force of your assertions belies you true position.

You are doing it now with Googs, you did it with me regarding the referees, and you do it all the time.

It forces more polarization in discussions than there should be.
There's polarization..  
FatMan in Charlotte : 10/10/2019 7:58 pm : link
because you and Googs misstate my points - the same thing you are accusing me of.

Googs twists my words to say "everyone" hates Gettleman. You twisted my words to say that I claimed the referees cost us the game.

So it is likely we both use the same tactic.

The only way to avoid not generalizing positions to apply them to the collective is to single people out. I'm sure that would go over well. There is no consensus on BBI other than Ereck Flowers sucking
RE: There's polarization..  
.McL. : 10/10/2019 8:56 pm : link
In comment 14621860 FatMan in Charlotte said:
Quote:
because you and Googs misstate my points - the same thing you are accusing me of.

Googs twists my words to say "everyone" hates Gettleman. You twisted my words to say that I claimed the referees cost us the game.

So it is likely we both use the same tactic.

The only way to avoid not generalizing positions to apply them to the collective is to single people out. I'm sure that would go over well. There is no consensus on BBI other than Ereck Flowers sucking


Let me put it this way...

You fight with a lot of posters... Alot...

I can speak for myself, I don't interact with other posters the way I interact with you, and you certainly initiated it.

From what I see, it seems to be the same for Googs, and a number of other posters with whom you regularly fight.

You reap what you sow.
RE: RE: .  
Jimmy Googs : 10/11/2019 8:15 am : link
In comment 14621667 FatMan in Charlotte said:
Quote:
In comment 14621522 Jimmy Googs said:


Quote:




Quote:


Which is it man...do you think everybody hates DG or do you just hate everybody else that doesn't see it your way?




It seems obvious now that the answer is both...



Ironically - you keep trying to corner me into saying I'm talking about "everybody", but you consistently do the same thing. Trolling does make one hypocritical, though.



Childish reply. So let me respond in kind...

I know you are but what am I?
RE: There's polarization..  
Jimmy Googs : 10/11/2019 8:23 am : link
In comment 14621860 FatMan in Charlotte said:
Quote:


The only way to avoid not generalizing positions to apply them to the collective is to single people out. I'm sure that would go over well.


No, there is another way...just donít do it
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