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You have to grade Jones on a curve

BestFeature : 10/10/2019 11:40 pm
I see a lot of criticism of Jones on this board the last few games. The only game that I think we could have expected him to play better was the game against Washington. But, since then he's played two of the best defenses in the league. One of those off to a historically good start, with the best coach in NFL history whose specialty is defense. He's played without his only star on the team all three games and in the first game he got injured in the first half and was ineffective when he did play. Today, he played on a team that was arguably bottom 10 talent-wise on offense to begin with without his 3 best players on offense, in gusting wind, on the road. No one was getting separation. He hit guys in the hands over and over despite that and they weren't making catches. His head coach is an imbecile. I think we've seen enough where we know he at least is a promising QB. We just can't grade him like we would Eli Manning who is a vet.

The reason I post this is that the amount of stupidity I read on this board regarding Jones is mind-numbing. Someone recently posted "I know Jones was playing against a good D in the Vikings but when does that stop being an excuse?" After his THIRD fucking NFL start. Either it's never an excuse (it is) or it's still a fucking excuse three games in! Today I read "everyone was shitting on Eli for 3 years but are making excuses for Jones". Um...maybe because Jones is not a vet of over a decade? Then there are the imbeciles who are actively rooting against Jones because they sleep with an Eli Manning poster on their bedroom wall. Seriously, seems like some people are taking pleasure in Jones struggling because it makes Eli Manning look good. It's pathetic.

/Rant
....  
BleedBlue : 10/10/2019 11:50 pm : link
I know.

Blaming Jones is pathetic. People expect him to be polished in his 4th start.


Forget all other variables. Start #4!!!!! When the fuck have we seen a rookie start #4 look sharp? Now add in short week, Pat's, Brady, #1 def, no Barkley, no gallman, no shep, no engram, shaky OL....I mean seriously?! We are lucky he didn't get picked 5+ times tonight
all is good  
mdthedream : 10/10/2019 11:51 pm : link
we are playing with the JV squad on offense.
RE: ....  
BestFeature : 10/10/2019 11:52 pm : link
In comment 14623768 BleedBlue said:
Quote:
I know.

Blaming Jones is pathetic. People expect him to be polished in his 4th start.


Forget all other variables. Start #4!!!!! When the fuck have we seen a rookie start #4 look sharp? Now add in short week, Pat's, Brady, #1 def, no Barkley, no gallman, no shep, no engram, shaky OL....I mean seriously?! We are lucky he didn't get picked 5+ times tonight


Agreed 100%. Though I'm encouraged by the other Jones thread, maybe I'm overreacting to outliers.
It is 100% fine to point out mistakes,  
St. Jimmy : 10/11/2019 12:21 am : link
that is what the coaches should be doing. For is, they don't really matter until next year. He has to learn and then show he learned.
The thing that stood out to me  
chiro56 : 10/11/2019 12:22 am : link
NE secondary were glued to our receivers . I know these guys are scrubs, but holy shit they had tight coverage. I gotta give DJ kudos for some of those completions. Hate to lose, but took away some positive vibes.
If I am grading Jones....I would give him a B  
George from PA : 10/11/2019 4:39 am : link
And I am a tough grader.

1st he is taking the tough classes
2nd his mistakes are fixable
3rd he has shown enough already to pass

Tampa was a special start
Washington was fine
Viking had some expected bumps
NE was toughest test yet and he had to leave all his material home.
Not calling audibles  
SteelGiant : 10/11/2019 6:13 am : link
Have you noticed if DJ has called an audible? which I am sure is normal for a rookie QB. I also feel it's impossible to beat a good defense without being able to change the play pre-snap.
I havenít seen many criticisms at all.  
Big Blue '56 : 10/11/2019 6:36 am : link
Very few
And Twitter  
Big Blue '56 : 10/11/2019 6:38 am : link
doesnít count imv..Mostly casual, shoot from the hip, ďfansĒ of the game.
Too many intercepted/almost intercepted passes.  
Brown Recluse : 10/11/2019 6:44 am : link
Also holds onto the ball too long at times and throws it late. Heís probably averaging about three dropped INTís per game.

Heís a rookie so he gets a pass for now, but his processing speed and ability to see the field were issues in college.
RE: Not calling audibles  
Prude : 10/11/2019 7:15 am : link
In comment 14623968 SteelGiant said:
Quote:
Have you noticed if DJ has called an audible? which I am sure is normal for a rookie QB. I also feel it's impossible to beat a good defense without being able to change the play pre-snap.


This is a great point. I know that he is still getting his feet under him but Shurmur really needs to hand over the keys at some point. The kid is smart enough to know an unfavorable alignment when he sees it and he is powerless to do anything but walk into the fire.
Pretty easy to evaluate his play  
stoneman : 10/11/2019 7:43 am : link
He has now played

TB - #26 defense - played outstanding
Wash - #28 defense - played OK, some bad, mostly good
Min - #4 defense - played badly, pressure all day, 2 int
NE - #1 defense - played badly, less pressure, 3 int, injuries to receivers

Everyone is panicking over his last 2 starts against the #1 and #4 defenses, without Barkley. Its not that bad.

Next week against AZ will tell us alot.
I wish Shumer would add  
stoneman : 10/11/2019 7:47 am : link
some roll outs to this offense, ala GB. This would be one of Jones strengths as he is both mobile and accurate on the run. Maybe they are adding to his game plan slowly and its coming :)
I dont get the curve thing  
Gmanfandan : 10/11/2019 8:04 am : link
This the NFL - these games count and go in the record books. I get that we have a rook at the position and he was bound to fail tonight with a lot of pieces missing... but that doesn't give him a pass. He will have better games, make better decisions speed up the clock in his head and hopefully get some fantastic grades this year and many beyond... but last night he was not good and its not criminal (or mean) to say that.
RE: RE: Not calling audibles  
Diver_Down : 10/11/2019 8:07 am : link
In comment 14624009 Prude said:
Quote:
In comment 14623968 SteelGiant said:


Quote:


Have you noticed if DJ has called an audible? which I am sure is normal for a rookie QB. I also feel it's impossible to beat a good defense without being able to change the play pre-snap.



This is a great point. I know that he is still getting his feet under him but Shurmur really needs to hand over the keys at some point. The kid is smart enough to know an unfavorable alignment when he sees it and he is powerless to do anything but walk into the fire.


Unfavorable alignment? Such as being in the shotgun for the majority of offensive snaps? Every play (except 1) from under center is a hand-off. The scouting report on the offensive playcalls is easy to read. It isn't doing DJ any favors when a defense can pick up on tendencies. We were told that DJ like Eli was great at play-action. Well, let him do it.
RE: I dont get the curve thing  
BestFeature : 10/11/2019 8:14 am : link
In comment 14624055 Gmanfandan said:
Quote:
This the NFL - these games count and go in the record books. I get that we have a rook at the position and he was bound to fail tonight with a lot of pieces missing... but that doesn't give him a pass. He will have better games, make better decisions speed up the clock in his head and hopefully get some fantastic grades this year and many beyond... but last night he was not good and its not criminal (or mean) to say that.


Obviously the NFL doesn't grade him on a curve but the minute he started this season wasn't about winning. Grading him requires taking context into account. Grading him on a curve doesn't mean the final result will be different after the game but all it is is judging him and that requires taking some things into account beyond the stats.
RE: RE: RE: Not calling audibles  
stoneman : 10/11/2019 8:16 am : link
In comment 14624059 Diver_Down said:
Quote:
In comment 14624009 Prude said:


Quote:


In comment 14623968 SteelGiant said:


Quote:


Have you noticed if DJ has called an audible? which I am sure is normal for a rookie QB. I also feel it's impossible to beat a good defense without being able to change the play pre-snap.



This is a great point. I know that he is still getting his feet under him but Shurmur really needs to hand over the keys at some point. The kid is smart enough to know an unfavorable alignment when he sees it and he is powerless to do anything but walk into the fire.



Unfavorable alignment? Such as being in the shotgun for the majority of offensive snaps? Every play (except 1) from under center is a hand-off. The scouting report on the offensive playcalls is easy to read. It isn't doing DJ any favors when a defense can pick up on tendencies. We were told that DJ like Eli was great at play-action. Well, let him do it.


yes, but that one play was the TD - perfect play action that Jones did a great job with.
RE: Too many intercepted/almost intercepted passes.  
BestFeature : 10/11/2019 8:19 am : link
In comment 14623980 Brown Recluse said:
Quote:
Also holds onto the ball too long at times and throws it late. Heís probably averaging about three dropped INTís per game.

Heís a rookie so he gets a pass for now, but his processing speed and ability to see the field were issues in college.


Peyton Manning led the league in interceptions his rookie year. Different league but these things happen.
RE: RE: I dont get the curve thing  
Gmanfandan : 10/11/2019 8:21 am : link
In comment 14624068 BestFeature said:
Quote:
In comment 14624055 Gmanfandan said:


Quote:


This the NFL - these games count and go in the record books. I get that we have a rook at the position and he was bound to fail tonight with a lot of pieces missing... but that doesn't give him a pass. He will have better games, make better decisions speed up the clock in his head and hopefully get some fantastic grades this year and many beyond... but last night he was not good and its not criminal (or mean) to say that.



Obviously the NFL doesn't grade him on a curve but the minute he started this season wasn't about winning. Grading him requires taking context into account. Grading him on a curve doesn't mean the final result will be different after the game but all it is is judging him and that requires taking some things into account beyond the stats.


I get it, but that's like a participation trophy. There's nothing wrong in saying he stunk last night but showed promise. And I certainly don't blame the loss on HIM - I also don't expect him to step in and be Dan Marino as a rookie (though that would be nice) but shouldn't that be the bar? Three picks and a 35 rating... how could he play and get a failing grade if that isn't failing (for one game in VERY tough conditions and circumstances)
RE: RE: RE: RE: Not calling audibles  
Diver_Down : 10/11/2019 8:21 am : link
In comment 14624071 stoneman said:
Quote:
In comment 14624059 Diver_Down said:


Quote:


In comment 14624009 Prude said:


Quote:


In comment 14623968 SteelGiant said:


Quote:


Have you noticed if DJ has called an audible? which I am sure is normal for a rookie QB. I also feel it's impossible to beat a good defense without being able to change the play pre-snap.



This is a great point. I know that he is still getting his feet under him but Shurmur really needs to hand over the keys at some point. The kid is smart enough to know an unfavorable alignment when he sees it and he is powerless to do anything but walk into the fire.



Unfavorable alignment? Such as being in the shotgun for the majority of offensive snaps? Every play (except 1) from under center is a hand-off. The scouting report on the offensive playcalls is easy to read. It isn't doing DJ any favors when a defense can pick up on tendencies. We were told that DJ like Eli was great at play-action. Well, let him do it.



yes, but that one play was the TD - perfect play action that Jones did a great job with.


You are underscoring my point. DJ is great at play-action. But as a defense, you play probabilities from what you see in game study. Right now, when DJ is under center, 99% of the time it is a hand-off. That tendency isn't helping the OL block better. Kick off the training wheels and let DJ operate from under center.
DJ Is Doing Fine  
Rong5611 : 10/11/2019 8:39 am : link
The kid has game. He's a rookie, things are going to happen.

I'll preface this by saying I'm a huge Eli fan. Jones is light years ahead of Eli when comparing their first seasons.

Let him play/learn. We are going nowhere this year. Its all about his development for 2020 and beyond.
I have a young quarterback to root for  
joeinpa : 10/11/2019 8:49 am : link
And all the enthusiasm that brings. The games are fun and meaningful to me again. I see the potential in Jones just like I did with Simms and Eli, when the same type of fan you refer to were up in arms.

I learned long ago people driven by emotion often lack objectivity and are best ignored. That s what I do, suggest you do the same.

I got what I wanted l, a young quarterback who can play. I m going to sit back and enjoy it.
They say you don't need to be successful running the ball  
Zeke's Alibi : 10/11/2019 8:57 am : link
to run playaction, but that doesn't take into account that Hilliman is in backfield.
RE: They say you don't need to be successful running the ball  
crick n NC : 10/11/2019 9:03 am : link
In comment 14624138 Zeke's Alibi said:
Quote:
to run playaction, but that doesn't take into account that Hilliman is in backfield.


Undisciplined defenses I would agree, the pats seem like a team that sticks to their keys.
This might sound crazy  
Jay on the Island : 10/11/2019 9:25 am : link
about I am higher on Jones after last nights performance. Sure he made a couple of mistakes but he made some beautiful throws into extremely tight windows. He had no help from the running game or offensive line but he kept battling.
....  
Jay on the Island : 10/11/2019 9:26 am : link
about = but
RE: RE: Too many intercepted/almost intercepted passes.  
Brown Recluse : 10/11/2019 9:37 am : link
In comment 14624073 BestFeature said:
Quote:
In comment 14623980 Brown Recluse said:


Quote:


Also holds onto the ball too long at times and throws it late. Heís probably averaging about three dropped INTís per game.

Heís a rookie so he gets a pass for now, but his processing speed and ability to see the field were issues in college.



Peyton Manning led the league in interceptions his rookie year. Different league but these things happen.


Like I said, he's a rookie. Its only his 4th start.

But its something to keep an eye on going forward. It needs to be fixed.
The Giants didn't have a QB problem when Eli was playing  
arniefez : 10/11/2019 9:40 am : link
they don't have a QB problem when Jones is playing. The have a GM, HC problem.
I love what I am seeing with Jones  
regulator : 10/11/2019 9:44 am : link
if anyone is alarmed by what they see in terms of his development, they are only reading stat lines and don't know football. Simple as that.

The kid is a player.
RE: This might sound crazy  
jpkmets : 10/11/2019 9:44 am : link
In comment 14624226 Jay on the Island said:
Quote:
about I am higher on Jones after last nights performance. Sure he made a couple of mistakes but he made some beautiful throws into extremely tight windows. He had no help from the running game or offensive line but he kept battling.


Iím right there with you.

Every true rookie QB (those who donít have the benefit of sitting for a year and watching) has bumps - usually far worse than Jonesí last night. Eliís Baltimore game comes to mind. Jones has things to learn - when to decide that the primary goal of a pass play has become ball protection rather than a completion springs to mind. But as far as who he is, what he can do, Iím super excited. Ball placement, temperament, leadership. Heís got what it takes. Experiences like this - against the master defensive technician at the height of his powers will absolutely help.

Usually donít love Giants on Thursday, but Iím already excited about how the team returns with ten days to get healthy and metabolize this.
RE: I love what I am seeing with Jones  
jpkmets : 10/11/2019 9:45 am : link
In comment 14624277 regulator said:
Quote:
if anyone is alarmed by what they see in terms of his development, they are only reading stat lines and don't know football. Simple as that.

The kid is a player.


100 % agree.
1. Never look at Twatter football comments  
mrvax : 10/11/2019 10:25 am : link
2. Pay no mind to posts by people that are football stupid and do not realize there is a HUGE learning curve between college & NFL QBs.

The things I look for in a young QB are there. He is a keeper. The Giant's homework on Jones really paid off.
I thought I was alone  
Big_N : 10/11/2019 10:33 am : link
....actively rooting against the Giants and taking delightful pleasure in Gettlemen / jones / Shurmeu train wreck. it is so much more satisfying rooting for the Giants.


What threads ? I want to read some of them.
RE: RE: RE: I dont get the curve thing  
Big_N : 10/11/2019 10:49 am : link
In comment 14624080 Gmanfandan said:
Quote:
In comment 14624068 BestFeature said:


Quote:


In comment 14624055 Gmanfandan said:


Quote:


This the NFL - these games count and go in the record books. I get that we have a rook at the position and he was bound to fail tonight with a lot of pieces missing... but that doesn't give him a pass. He will have better games, make better decisions speed up the clock in his head and hopefully get some fantastic grades this year and many beyond... but last night he was not good and its not criminal (or mean) to say that.



Obviously the NFL doesn't grade him on a curve but the minute he started this season wasn't about winning. Grading him requires taking context into account. Grading him on a curve doesn't mean the final result will be different after the game but all it is is judging him and that requires taking some things into account beyond the stats.



I get it, but that's like a participation trophy. There's nothing wrong in saying he stunk last night but showed promise. And I certainly don't blame the loss on HIM - I also don't expect him to step in and be Dan Marino as a rookie (though that would be nice) but shouldn't that be the bar? Three picks and a 35 rating... how could he play and get a failing grade if that isn't failing (for one game in VERY tough conditions and circumstances)


DM, Prescott played at that higher level in the play offs their rookie year
Then what is the point of playing jones then?  
Big_N : 10/11/2019 10:50 am : link
.
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