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If Barkley, Shepard, Engram play, we had a good shot...

Eric from BBI : Admin : 10/11/2019 8:59 am
of winning. Against the undefeated Super Bowl Champions. In their stadium. On Thursday night as the away team.

I'm not big into "moral" victories, but that is a very good sign.
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Believe what you want to  
Greg from LI : 10/11/2019 10:05 am : link
I know what good defense is, and that wasn't it. Hooray that they made a couple of big plays, but until they start making routine fucking tackles occasionally, and not letting receivers run free all fucking night, they will continue to be a laughingstock.

Did you note how almost every pass Jones made was to a receiver who was blanketed by a defender? THAT is a defense playing a good game. Brady was throwing to receivers who didn't have a defender in the same zip code.
except for falling asleep on late Edelman throw  
bc4life : 10/11/2019 10:05 am : link
Defense played fairly well.

Jones had time to throw last night - no one was getting open.
All I know is that the clock is ticking  
ryanmkeane : 10/11/2019 10:05 am : link
on Shurmur and if we lose to Arizona at home...
RE: To be fair..  
jcn56 : 10/11/2019 10:06 am : link
In comment 14624334 FatMan in Charlotte said:
Quote:
the board is mainly driven by pessimism. And I'm not sure many fans are going to think a guy who hasn't had a winning record is good.

I honestly don't know what we have with Shurmur. I personally don't think he's a good coach, but I've been wrong on those assessments before.

We likely have a poor coach and a poor team. But you literally had posters last night calling him the worst coach in the league. I think one guy said he's the worst coach ever.

The dilemma we face is that a different coach isn't likely producing substantially different results with this team, so how do you evaluate what you have?


It's not pessimism it's results. Shurmur came in with a lousy record. He's continued that winning percentage almost unchanged here. It's not that people are being unfairly pessimistic towards him, it's that thus far, there aren't many positive signs of development that would warrant confidence in his ability, and his record suggests that's not going to change.
RE: Believe what you want to  
Eric from BBI : Admin : 10/11/2019 10:06 am : link
In comment 14624346 Greg from LI said:
Quote:
I know what good defense is, and that wasn't it. Hooray that they made a couple of big plays, but until they start making routine fucking tackles occasionally, and not letting receivers run free all fucking night, they will continue to be a laughingstock.

Did you note how almost every pass Jones made was to a receiver who was blanketed by a defender? THAT is a defense playing a good game. Brady was throwing to receivers who didn't have a defender in the same zip code.


You're missing the point.

The Giants were the 30th-ranked defense coming into this game. All we're saying was there was progress last night.

The Patriots looked like the #1 ranked defense that they are.

This defense is going to have issues until they find a consistent edge rusher, better inside linebackers, and a free safety.
.  
arcarsenal : 10/11/2019 10:07 am : link
Poor tackling is a league-wide issue. This isn't unique to the Giants.
Defense isn't great @ all.  
SFGFNCGiantsFan : 10/11/2019 10:08 am : link
But you're blind if you don't think it's gotten better.
RE: Pats looked awful vunerable  
Rong5611 : 10/11/2019 10:09 am : link
Yep. Their OL isn't that good. Their secondary will need to carry them.

In comment 14624258 stoneman said:
Quote:
Their stats have been padded by the schedule. They are going to have problems in the playoffs.

Like the thread says, Giants were in this. If they dominate AZ next week, then this team is easily middle of the pack team if not better. You would not know from the critique this morning, but this team is improving.
RE: RE: Brady threw a terrible pick in the end zone  
stoneman : 10/11/2019 10:10 am : link
In comment 14624340 Eric from BBI said:
Quote:
In comment 14624322 Greg from LI said:


Quote:


and Nugent missed a fairly routine FG. And, again, the weather conditions were far from conducive to offense. You people are grading on an enormous curve because you really want to believe the defense is actually good - but it's still really bad.



So the defense doesn't get credit for making a play on the interception?

Missing field goals is part of the game.

You argue we're stretching here, but so are you.

Last night represented progress for the defense. Can the build on it? Up for debate.

But I guarantee you there were Patriots fans in the stadium last night getting a bit nervous.


Not sure how you cannot say both the offense and defense has not improved from last year and the year before. They are not super bowl bound, but they are improving. Flashes for both Lorenzo and Golden last night, even Jones with his 3 int looked unrattled. Alot of good with the bad last night.
If they aren't THE worst defense,they're certainly in the conversation  
Greg from LI : 10/11/2019 10:11 am : link
25th in points allowed. 31st in yards allowed. Those numbers include the game against the laughably inept and injury-riddled Redskins offense. In six games this year, they've allowed 494, 388, 499, 176 (Skins, obviously), 490, and 427 yards. They're really bad.
Hereís another thing from last night  
ryanmkeane : 10/11/2019 10:12 am : link
it was clear Pats OL could not handle our DL especially when we were blitzing or bringing another LB. and yet, it seemed like every 3rd and manageable we were rushing 3 guys and hoping that our LB and S could cover their quick WR which was clearly not going to happen. Thatís bad in game coaching, we should have been blitzing the shit out of Brady all game.
RE: RE: Believe what you want to  
Rong5611 : 10/11/2019 10:14 am : link
Well said Eric. They hung with the champs.

Yes, they lost. But they flashed, we can build on this.

In comment 14624357 Eric from BBI said:
Quote:
In comment 14624346 Greg from LI said:


Quote:


I know what good defense is, and that wasn't it. Hooray that they made a couple of big plays, but until they start making routine fucking tackles occasionally, and not letting receivers run free all fucking night, they will continue to be a laughingstock.

Did you note how almost every pass Jones made was to a receiver who was blanketed by a defender? THAT is a defense playing a good game. Brady was throwing to receivers who didn't have a defender in the same zip code.



You're missing the point.

The Giants were the 30th-ranked defense coming into this game. All we're saying was there was progress last night.

The Patriots looked like the #1 ranked defense that they are.

This defense is going to have issues until they find a consistent edge rusher, better inside linebackers, and a free safety.
RE: RE: Biggest takeaway from  
Beezer : 10/11/2019 10:15 am : link
In comment 14624185 Eric from BBI said:
Quote:
In comment 14624169 ryanmkeane said:


Quote:


the game is Shurmur. The guy is clueless when it comes to in game management and has zero feel for what to do in important drives and situations. They played hard for him, but thatís not enough and that shouldnít be the bar for a head coach.



This could be THE problem.

On the other hand, perhaps the rapid progression of Jones is due to him?

Who knows?


I'm not one to constantly lampoon Shurmur ... but I really think Jones walked in the door prepared. Maybe Shurmur has helped him, but maybe a guy like Shurmur should be helping a guy like Jones in the role of quarterback coach. Not head coach of the New York Football Giants.

It's not quite as bad as Mickey Calloway's tenure with the Mets, but I'm beginning to notice similarities.

Still supporting Shurmur. But despite the absence of a handful of critically important skills guys last night, I'm starting to detect warts in more visible places.
RE: RE: RE: Brady threw a terrible pick in the end zone  
Greg from LI : 10/11/2019 10:16 am : link
In comment 14624366 stoneman said:
Quote:
Not sure how you cannot say both the offense and defense has not improved from last year and the year before. They are not super bowl bound, but they are improving. Flashes for both Lorenzo and Golden last night, even Jones with his 3 int looked unrattled. Alot of good with the bad last night.


So tell me then, how exactly would you quantify this defensive progress? Because it sure as hell isn't in results. I've been hearing about Lorenzo Carter's "flashes" for a fucking year now. Whoopdeedoo. The Giants D was 25th in points and 31st in yards last year. Guess what they are this year? The exact. Same. Fucking. Thing.
I think people have lost the ability to think objectively  
jcn56 : 10/11/2019 10:16 am : link
If we saw the Redskins do the same against the Patriots, what would we be thinking?

- The Redskins might be better than anyone thought

- The Redskins could be improving

- The Thursday Night Football product is shit to begin with, and the weather didn't help

RE: RE: RE: Biggest takeaway from  
Greg from LI : 10/11/2019 10:18 am : link
In comment 14624382 Beezer said:
Quote:
I'm not one to constantly lampoon Shurmur ... but I really think Jones walked in the door prepared.


One of the big pluses for Jones was that, having played for Cutcliffe, he'd be more prepared than most rookie QBs to step in and not be overwhelmed by the NFL because he'd been so well coached, and I think we're seeing that.
Iím more confident in Jones  
ryanmkeane : 10/11/2019 10:20 am : link
after this game as well. He really gets pissed and shows fire out there, and you could see it in the post game press conference that he was really upset that he left plays out there and they had a chance to win. Heís a competitor.
Jones also had some  
ryanmkeane : 10/11/2019 10:21 am : link
really awesome throws in this game. That being said, he had some bad rookie ones as well. Letís see if he can build and hopefully put a couple good games together against Arizona and Detroit.
Not sure how anyone can say the  
Giants in 07 : 10/11/2019 10:21 am : link
defense hasn't improved since weeks 1-3.

You literally had Gallup, Cooper and Evans running downfield with nobody within 15 yards of them


.  
arcarsenal : 10/11/2019 10:22 am : link
Everyone knew from the start of the season that this was a young defense that was going to have growing pains.

Why would anyone be surprised to see them ranking closer to the bottom of the league through 6 games? They weren't going to be fixed in week 1.

They're going to need to improve incrementally. We aren't waking up one day to a defense that is suddenly top 5 with no curve in between. I'm not sure what people were expecting to see last night.
Yeah? OK, so where are even the incremental improvements?  
Greg from LI : 10/11/2019 10:24 am : link
A big play sprinkled in once per game?
RE: Not sure how anyone can say the  
Greg from LI : 10/11/2019 10:24 am : link
In comment 14624408 Giants in 07 said:
Quote:
defense hasn't improved since weeks 1-3.

You literally had Gallup, Cooper and Evans running downfield with nobody within 15 yards of them



So they've gone from unspeakably bad to merely routinely bad. Gotcha.
RE: Yeah? OK, so where are even the incremental improvements?  
Giants in 07 : 10/11/2019 10:27 am : link
In comment 14624415 Greg from LI said:
Quote:
A big play sprinkled in once per game?


Multiple 3rd and 4th down stops - something that has plagued them for years
Actually hitting the QB even if it's not sacks
Collapsing the pocket somewhat
Baker has done a complete 180 since Week 1 and 2


They are progressing.
For the life of me though, I can't understand  
Giants in 07 : 10/11/2019 10:28 am : link
why Ballentine hasn't seen the field.
RE: Yeah? OK, so where are even the incremental improvements?  
arcarsenal : 10/11/2019 10:30 am : link
In comment 14624415 Greg from LI said:
Quote:
A big play sprinkled in once per game?


If you couldn't see any difference between last night and week 1, I'm not sure what to tell ya.

The blown coverages against Dallas and Buffalo were ludicrous. There were guys running around with no one even in view on nearly every drive. I could have completed passes against us in either game.

Even against Tampa, guys were routinely wide open and barely contested.

There's a difference between claiming the defense is good/has arrived, and thinking they're a young unit that is showing some signs of improvement. The latter seems like a fair and rational observation - not sure why all the pushback or hyperbolic responses when no one is saying the defense is suddenly great or anything to write home about.

When your offense can't sustain drives, establish a ground game or stay on the field and your opponent is the Patriots in Foxboro... you're probably going to give up yards.
You didn't see guys routinely open last night?  
Greg from LI : 10/11/2019 10:40 am : link
I did. Maybe not with the same frequency, but it was hardly unusual.

And the Pats aren't exactly loaded with receiving talent at the moment. Edelman's on the downslope, Gordon got hurt, no more Gronk, their 3 and 4 receivers last night were a pair of UDFA rookies, their starting TE was Giants castoff Matt Lacosse.

Not exactly a dangerous group.
.  
arcarsenal : 10/11/2019 10:44 am : link
Nothing like earlier in the season. How many passes did Brady complete to guys who had no one around them? I can think of maybe 2-3 tops.

In Dallas it was happening almost every drive. We had no one near Cole Beasley in Week 2, either. He was getting wide open on 3rd down after 3rd down.

Interesting that the Patriots are awarded the injury excuse when it's not allowed to be used in our case, though...

When people have brought up the absence of Barkley, Shepard and Engram, the response has basically been "well, they'd just have changed their gameplan and scored more points"... but obviously that argument doesn't go both ways here.
You can't think of any reasons why anyone would extend more benefit of  
Greg from LI : 10/11/2019 10:45 am : link
the doubt to the Patriots than the Giants?
Shurmur is getting way too comfortable  
morrison40 : 10/11/2019 10:47 am : link
With cliche driven post loss press conferences, but then thatís all heís ever done for 70% of his HC career...pitiful
.  
arcarsenal : 10/11/2019 10:50 am : link
Sure I can... but I'm not going to sit here and pity the Patriots for the team they had to go out there with last night at home. They still had more than enough talent to score points and win the game.

Before the game was played, people were almost universally predicting that the Giants would get absolutely murdered. It's almost like some of you guys are disappointed that they didn't.
How much motivation do you really think the Pats had last night...  
M.S. : 10/11/2019 10:53 am : link

...playing a lower tier team without all its offensive weapons?

It's not like the Pats were playing a top team to decide which one gets homefield advantage throughout the playoffs.

The fact that the Giants hung tough against the Pats means jack-shit. The Pats played as hard as they needed to in order to beat the lowly Giants.

The Pats took care of business. Full stop.
I was very pleased by how some of the younger defensive  
Jimmy Googs : 10/11/2019 10:57 am : link
players played, showing talent and aggressiveness.

And conversely, pissed off at how bad some of the veteran defensive players played, showing age and poor football instincts...
RE: How much motivation do you really think the Pats had last night...  
arcarsenal : 10/11/2019 11:04 am : link
In comment 14624492 M.S. said:
Quote:

...playing a lower tier team without all its offensive weapons?

It's not like the Pats were playing a top team to decide which one gets homefield advantage throughout the playoffs.

The fact that the Giants hung tough against the Pats means jack-shit. The Pats played as hard as they needed to in order to beat the lowly Giants.

The Pats took care of business. Full stop.


Pretty sure a Belichick coached team doesn't need homefield advantage in the playoffs to be on the line to find motivation to win a football game.

You don't put the type of sheer dominance they have on display with that mentality.

This is all nonsense.
Even if we just had Barkley  
Les in TO : 10/11/2019 11:10 am : link
It would have been a much closer affair
If you are not encouraged by last nights game  
Rudy5757 : 10/11/2019 11:22 am : link
you are just looking to be at all the bad. we are one of the youngest teams in the league. All of our stars on O are out and we found a way to compete with a team that is far superior from top to bottom. Say what you want about the coach and players but they played hard to the end. Thats what you want to see from your team, players that compete.

When we won our 2007 Superbowl we lost to the Pats in the final game but that proved to the team that we could compete with any team in the league and it carried us to the championship. i/m not saying that we will win the Superbowl, Im saying that this is a building block game.

there was a lot that went wrong early, mainly the blocked punt and some teams would have folded. But these guys played hard and had a chance late in the game. the score doesnt reflect that.
RE: RE: Gettlemanís idea for this team  
Simms11 : 10/11/2019 11:29 am : link
In comment 14624319 Zeke's Alibi said:
Quote:
In comment 14624308 ryanmkeane said:


Quote:


and rotate construction screams of Mike McCarthy. Iíd back up the truck for him in 2020 if Shurmur is gone



I don't think much of Mike McCarthy as others, but theres a lot of Aaron Rodgers game without the personality problems in DJ. I'd think he'd jump at the chance to coach us.


McCarthy would be a good choice, however, maybe we need a defensive minded coach now. We need to get back to Giants dominating Defense.
I think the best way to look at Shurmur  
Dave on the UWS : 10/11/2019 11:30 am : link
is he can get the team to a certain point. Competitive, maybe even playoff challengers, but he doesnít seem to be a HC you can win with. The problem is, if you can him, you start all over. Thatís why hiring the right guy is THE most important factor to a turn around. Heís an upgrade over Mac, but doesnít look like THE right guy. THATís a MAJOR problem!
RE: .  
jcn56 : 10/11/2019 11:33 am : link
In comment 14624487 arcarsenal said:
Quote:


Before the game was played, people were almost universally predicting that the Giants would get absolutely murdered. It's almost like some of you guys are disappointed that they didn't.


Flip that one around a bit - I think some people are being far too complimentary of a team that lost 35-14, in a game that they were never really a threat to win, where most of the defensive performance could be chalked up to a combination of Brady playing like shit and bad weather.

It's nice that they didn't get killed. It's not a sign that they're just about to turn the corner. They got murdered against the Vikings. Let's see what the next challenges hold, in teams that should be a lot closer to the Giants in talent level.
There were definitely good signs in this game....  
Simms11 : 10/11/2019 11:34 am : link
Giants were competitive and really it was much closer then score indicated, but if push came to shove, Pats couldíve moved the ball. They pretty much owned TOP 40 mins to 20. They controlled the game moreso in second half, but for the first time in a while, I was kind of excited to see a semblance of a real D.
RE: RE: .  
arcarsenal : 10/11/2019 11:40 am : link
In comment 14624616 jcn56 said:
Quote:
In comment 14624487 arcarsenal said:


Quote:




Before the game was played, people were almost universally predicting that the Giants would get absolutely murdered. It's almost like some of you guys are disappointed that they didn't.



Flip that one around a bit - I think some people are being far too complimentary of a team that lost 35-14, in a game that they were never really a threat to win, where most of the defensive performance could be chalked up to a combination of Brady playing like shit and bad weather.

It's nice that they didn't get killed. It's not a sign that they're just about to turn the corner. They got murdered against the Vikings. Let's see what the next challenges hold, in teams that should be a lot closer to the Giants in talent level.


It's okay to give the Giants a smidge of credit sometimes. Not everything has to be chalked up to external factors like Brady playing shitty or the weather... we can say that the defense played better than expected but still have a ways to go.

Our QB had to play in the same crappy weather. So, if it was so detrimental to Brady, Jones - a rookie - should certainly be afforded that same excuse. Especially when he was without his RB, his RB's primary backup, his top WR, and his TE.

We can also find some encouraging signs without it needing to mean they're about to turn the corner.

I agree a team like Arizona should allow us to see if we're actually ascending at all or if we're just going week to week. Hopefully we'll have Barkley and Engram back. Who knows with Shepard.
Last week the Giants had...  
M.S. : 10/11/2019 11:44 am : link

...Evan Engram and Sterling Shepard and got their asses kicked up and down the field. So BFD they played better against the Pats with these two guys gone (along with Barkley.)

Who cares?

Daniel Jones has shown us some things that he (and the team) can build upon.

But as for this entire Giants team led by Pat Shurmur?

They got destroyed by Dallas; destroyed by Buffalo; destroyed by Minny; and hung in there against a Pats team that doubled our offensive output; doubled our time of possession; and came out 3 TDs ahead.

You are what your record says you are. That goes for the Giants at 2-4 and Pat Shurmur as a Head Coach 17-38.

For those who believe things are looking up. Great!
There's no doubt  
JonC : 10/11/2019 11:45 am : link
there's progress demonstrated in terms of fielding a hungry determined team that fights until the end. That's foundation progress in addition to the young talent they've assembled
I don't see Jones really getting much grief today, though  
jcn56 : 10/11/2019 11:46 am : link
I think he had a bad game - and obviously, had more than enough contributing factors for that.

I think Brady had a shit game, and while he had some contributing factors, he should have done a much better job. Some of that was definitely on the Giants D, but a lot of it was just Brady leaving plays on the table.
I have said repeatedly in other threads that...  
Greg from LI : 10/11/2019 11:53 am : link
....I'm not at all concerned with Jones' performance last night because there were so many factors working against him, including the wind. So while there may be some people giving that to Brady but not Jones, I'm not one of them.
Signs are looking up  
DavidinBMNY : 10/11/2019 12:31 pm : link
"So your saying there's a chance" Means a heck of a lot. The team doesn't completely stink. There is some talent and reason for hope. They really need to find a 3 game winning streak somehow, someway, starting in one of the next 3 weeks to be playing meaningful football, but even if they don't they are better then the worst teams in the league. They were in the absolute bottom tier the past 2 years. Now they are at least 1 tier ahead of Miami and Washington. And they actually did win 2 in a row so it's not out of question they could find a way to win 3 in a row. Unlikely, but not completely crazy.
The injury excuse  
Vanzetti : 10/11/2019 12:35 pm : link
How many years did we have to hear that the Giants misfortunes under Coughlin were because of injuries?

Patriots came out flat against Giants as top teams often do against weak competitors. Then they took control of the game and won by 21 points.

If Barkley, Engram, and Shep were healthy, you would have seen a much more focused Patriot team and probably the same type of lopsided result.

Also, Patriots were missing signficant personnel as well.


RE: To be fair..  
Go Terps : 10/11/2019 12:57 pm : link
In comment 14624334 FatMan in Charlotte said:
Quote:
the board is mainly driven by pessimism. And I'm not sure many fans are going to think a guy who hasn't had a winning record is good.

I honestly don't know what we have with Shurmur. I personally don't think he's a good coach, but I've been wrong on those assessments before.

We likely have a poor coach and a poor team. But you literally had posters last night calling him the worst coach in the league. I think one guy said he's the worst coach ever.

The dilemma we face is that a different coach isn't likely producing substantially different results with this team, so how do you evaluate what you have?


It's not pessimism, it's reality. The Giants are and have been a terrible football team. I know we lead the NFL in excuses and moral victories, but the numbers don't lie.
FMiC  
Daniel in MI : 10/11/2019 12:57 pm : link
you're point about coaches with bad teams making inconsistent decisions rings true to me.

I remember one year, Fassel clearly thought we had a good team and in the early part of the year he got very aggressive. We started going on 4th a lot more than we had before. But, it seemed the team was determined to let him down every time. This culminated with the famous pick six at the end of the first half versus the Cards. After that, McNally no longer had to hold onto his nuts because JF withdrew his chips from mid-table.

With the way our D played early in the year, it made sense to be more aggressive on 4th, because our D was not holding anyone up. In THIS game, our D was playing OK (but fading admittedly and I'd have gone for it in the 4th quarter there). I think he punted there because for this one game they way our D was playing, it felt like we might get a 3 and out. Of course they let him down. Just like when he called a timeout earlier in the game to save time at the end of the first half. If Peppers makes a tackle, that might have been a good call. But he whiffed, and it didn't really matter (though PS was getting beat up for it anyway here, though I don't know why since it had virtually no impact either way).
RE: The injury excuse  
M.S. : 10/11/2019 1:10 pm : link
In comment 14624748 Vanzetti said:
Quote:
How many years did we have to hear that the Giants misfortunes under Coughlin were because of injuries?

Patriots came out flat against Giants as top teams often do against weak competitors. Then they took control of the game and won by 21 points.

If Barkley, Engram, and Shep were healthy, you would have seen a much more focused Patriot team and probably the same type of lopsided result.

Also, Patriots were missing signficant personnel as well.


Yep... this is what I was trying to say before, but you said it way much better!
RE: I was very encouraged....  
Bluesbreaker : 10/12/2019 4:22 pm : link
In comment 14624163 Britt in VA said:
Quote:
Loved the way the defense played.

Loved the fact that DJ came back out after throwing 2 INT's and threw a TD pass to Tate.

Very encouraged by that performance.


Unless your Greg "he wet blanket " from LI .
We certainly didn't look like the 30th ranked defense .
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