are really underestimating the impact the weather played.
Both QB's had some terrible throws in the first half.
The second half when the wind died down a little, you could see much more crisp play, but the Giants couldn't get separation all night long.
I do think having Barkley to run and Engram on the intermediate routes would have helped, but this game came down to a fumble return for a TD and TOP. Jones didn't have anyone open all night.
I'd add 1 other thing - if the refs called the game like any other Â
as opposed to letting pats DB's clutch and grab almost every play. I know it's how they play and we don't have big name WR's, but Tate was interfered with. At least 2 or 3 borderline calls on Slayton went uncalled. I believe they flagged us for a few holdings that gave the Pats first downs on 3rd downs. In a game where our D had play 75 plays any first down would have been a big deal.
are really underestimating the impact the weather played.
Both QB's had some terrible throws in the first half.
The second half when the wind died down a little, you could see much more crisp play, but the Giants couldn't get separation all night long.
I was at the NC State-Syracuse game last night but tracked the Giants on my phone. I was actually shocked to see it was 21-14 entering the 4th quarter. I guess for me that was a moral victory.
I do think having Barkley to run and Engram on the intermediate routes would have helped, but this game came down to a fumble return for a TD and TOP. Jones didn't have anyone open all night.
I was at the NC State-Syracuse game last night but tracked the Giants on my phone. I was actually shocked to see it was 21-14 entering the 4th quarter. I guess for me that was a moral victory.
I think Jones hit one play where I though the guy catching the ball was open. He was constantly throwing to covered receivers.
As the season goes on and we get Barkley, Engram and Shep back things will start looking better. Barkley alone will make the passing game better since teams will need to commit more people to stopping the run.
I think the defense played pretty well overall too. Mayo looks to be a solid 2 down LB. Carter looked pretty good, Golden has been solid. Baker has been pretty good. Dexter has been great most of the year.
I think things are slowly heading in the right direction.
the game is Shurmur. The guy is clueless when it comes to in game management and has zero feel for what to do in important drives and situations. They played hard for him, but that’s not enough and that shouldn’t be the bar for a head coach.
specifically because they knew the Giants had no weapons on offense and would be hard pressed to score. Had Barkley, Engram, and Shepherd played, the Patriots would have adjusted their game plan and lit up our secondary all night long.
the game is Shurmur. The guy is clueless when it comes to in game management and has zero feel for what to do in important drives and situations. They played hard for him, but that’s not enough and that shouldn’t be the bar for a head coach.
This could be THE problem.
On the other hand, perhaps the rapid progression of Jones is due to him?
Who knows?
My biggest takeaway last night is that Shurmur continues to Â
piss me off. I get the whole 'Look, he had them competing' line, but this is the NFL. It's your job to show up. His decision to punt the ball on some 4th downs in the 4th really irked me. Some gutless, wussy calls. Except I wasn't screaming 'wussy' @ the TV, but a word that rhymes with it.
piss me off. I get the whole 'Look, he had them competing' line, but this is the NFL. It's your job to show up. His decision to punt the ball on some 4th downs in the 4th really irked me. Some gutless, wussy calls. Except I wasn't screaming 'wussy' @ the TV, but a word that rhymes with it.
Why would you be pissed at Shurmur?
He's 17 - 38 as a Head Coach.
He deserves our pity, not our anger.
RE: RE: Pats were missing a lot of people too... Â
That said, I think we'll be 3-4 after Arizona & does Detroit really scary anyone? Not me.
Yes. It works both ways.
No they weren't
Phillip Dorsett and Rex Burkhead were the only inactives that would have seen action. Dorsett is the 3rd receiver and Burkhead is the 3rd running back. That's not what I would call injured.
They were full strength on defense coming into the game and had some injuries during the game.
I mentioned this in the game thread and Jordan Rannan posted data from Next Gen to back it up.. It seemed like NE knew all the plays or no one was getting any separation. Yet Jones was still putting the ball right through some of those tight windows.
With some legit weapons, Jones will give the team a chance.
Barkley was the biggest absence. Just adding him to the fold may have been enough to win that game.
Hilliman is awful. We couldn't establish anything on the ground all night. He fumbled and turned the ball over again that led directly to 7 points the other way.
Barkley was the biggest absence. Just adding him to the fold may have been enough to win that game.
Hilliman is awful. We couldn't establish anything on the ground all night. He fumbled and turned the ball over again that led directly to 7 points the other way.
Maybe the worst RB I've ever seen in the NFL. He offers nothing. Misses holes. Doesn't break tackles. Not a home run threat. Barely a threat to gain 5 yards.
when after a 35-14 victory in which you never had the lead you're typing 'we had a good shot of winning.'
The Giants never had a good shot of winning. Even with those guys, it's OK to accept that the gap between these teams, both from a talent and coaching perspective, is so great that on the road in a historically difficult place to win their chances were slim to none.
when after a 35-14 victory in which you never had the lead you're typing 'we had a good shot of winning.'
The Giants never had a good shot of winning. Even with those guys, it's OK to accept that the gap between these teams, both from a talent and coaching perspective, is so great that on the road in a historically difficult place to win their chances were slim to none.
It was a one-score game midway through the 4th quarter when we had something like 9 first downs. You don't think Saquon Barkley, Evan Engram, and Sterling Shepard would have had an impact on the offense?
Furthermore, without the rash of injuries at linebacker, that blocked punt doesn't happen.
I get what you are saying, but I couldn't believe we were in that game last night.
when after a 35-14 victory in which you never had the lead you're typing 'we had a good shot of winning.'
The Giants never had a good shot of winning. Even with those guys, it's OK to accept that the gap between these teams, both from a talent and coaching perspective, is so great that on the road in a historically difficult place to win their chances were slim to none.
i dont think it takes much mental gymnastics or home team bias to see we were competitive for at least half this game. with our 3 best offensive weapons playing i think its actually reasonable to think we would have been leading going into halftime. from there anything can happen.
I don't feel like the score was really indicative of the game.
It's fine to not want to accept a moral victory or just make it black and white and say.. a loss is a loss.
But, most people (including me) didn't even think the Giants would be remotely competitive last night.
I think you can look at that game and find some good takeaways on the defensive side of the ball. The 35 points are very misleading in terms of the defense. NE scored twice without them being on the field at all and they were also tasked with defending short fields on a few occasions because we struggled to even get a first down for much of the first half.
The offense was in an impossible situation in that stadium with a rookie QB, those winds, the missing weapons and the Patriots defense.
The loss counts as a loss whether we lose by 1 or 50.... but my takeaway was that I thought the defense took a step forward last night.
I suppose that, by the standards of Giants defense in 2019, it was a decent performance, but by objective NFL standards it was just another crappy night filled with missed tackles and blown coverages. They generated a pretty good pass rush at times, but let's remember who the Patriots are running out on OL these days before we get terribly excited.
Their stats have been padded by the schedule. They are going to have problems in the playoffs.
Like the thread says, Giants were in this. If they dominate AZ next week, then this team is easily middle of the pack team if not better. You would not know from the critique this morning, but this team is improving.
RE: RE: You know, you're sounding like a Jets fan Â
when after a 35-14 victory in which you never had the lead you're typing 'we had a good shot of winning.'
The Giants never had a good shot of winning. Even with those guys, it's OK to accept that the gap between these teams, both from a talent and coaching perspective, is so great that on the road in a historically difficult place to win their chances were slim to none.
It was a one-score game midway through the 4th quarter when we had something like 9 first downs. You don't think Saquon Barkley, Evan Engram, and Sterling Shepard would have had an impact on the offense?
Furthermore, without the rash of injuries at linebacker, that blocked punt doesn't happen.
I get what you are saying, but I couldn't believe we were in that game last night.
I honestly don't - because I don't think the Giants would have been much more effective against that Patriots D even with those players, and they would have adjusted their offensive game plan accordingly if they had to score more.
Last night screamed of 'old man Brady in shitty weather on a short week'. If he didn't look like hot garbage for most of the night, that game could have gotten ugly fast.
Which, BTW - if you want a takeaway from last night Â
I don't think there's much that we didn't already know about the Giants - flawed roster, defense that can't get a stop when it needs it, Jones has promise but he's raw...
Last night's takeaway was that Patriots OL looks bad (Marshall Newhouse anyone?) and Brady looks every bit of 42. Belichick wisely upgraded that defensive unit to be the strength of that team, but they are going to struggle mightily against a team with a strong defense.
People were saying this was the worst defense in football as recently as 2-3 weeks ago. I think it's fair to bring up that they certainly didn't look like the worst defense in football last night.
They have a ways to go, but like I said... they didn't give up 35 points. Two touchdowns were scored without them even being on the field. They came up with a 4th down stop, had a few other stops. Forced a couple turnovers, scored a defensive TD... this all happened in Foxboro.
It's fine if you don't want to give that effort any credit, but we also have to at least be fair - everyone here was expecting the Pats offense to put a much bigger shellacking on this defense.
We had the football in the 4th quarter with a chance to tie the game.
To me, that means the defense did a pretty damn good job.
RE: I still don't get the gushing over the defense Â
I suppose that, by the standards of Giants defense in 2019, it was a decent performance, but by objective NFL standards it was just another crappy night filled with missed tackles and blown coverages. They generated a pretty good pass rush at times, but let's remember who the Patriots are running out on OL these days before we get terribly excited.
Holding the Patriots to 21 points is crappy? How many times has it been done since the start of 2018? I'd say it's probably 5 times or less in their last 25 games. Just a guess though.
I suppose that, by the standards of Giants defense in 2019, it was a decent performance, but by objective NFL standards it was just another crappy night filled with missed tackles and blown coverages. They generated a pretty good pass rush at times, but let's remember who the Patriots are running out on OL these days before we get terribly excited.
Yes and no. Was the defense "good"? Up for debate. But what I saw last night was improvement against an offense that I expected to put up 35 points in legit fashion. The defense gave up 21 points. 7 of those came on a 20-yard field. And the final seven came late in the game.
Basically, the Patriots offense had two normal TD drives last night. You hold the Patriots to 14, you should win.
while I agree with you that you gotta get better players, the head coach of a NFL team is always the main difference maker ASIDE from the QB. Look at all these teams having success with backups, injuries, etc. I get that we are playing a rookie QB and had all backups in there with skill players. But you still have to show some semblance of being a good coach even with those things. We saw it all last season - Shurmur struggles with basic feel of a game. For all the issues that McAdoo had and trust me, he needed and deserved to get fired, but he did have a solid feel for a game and situational play calling. Shurmur is like the opposite of him, the players like him and play hard for him but he has zero feel for the game as it’s happening. And I don’t really think that that kinda thing gets better over time. It just is.
On a night with terrible weather. Sorry, I'm not going to spray champagne around in celebration over that.
Additionally, what happened after the Golden TD tied the game and the Giants had momentum? Right, the defense allowed the Pats to waltz down the field, 75 yards in four minutes, and score right before halftime.
Shurmur as head coach appears to be one of them. While they play hard for him, he absolutely stinks managing games, challenges, and often shows little feel for the game on offense, where he's supposed to be really good. His record speaks for itself.
Injuries obviously are killing this team. The defense holding against 4th downs kept the score close into the 4th, otherwise the game probably would've gone as expected. I think it's clear tho the Pats offense is overrated at this stage.
Giants need to take a long, hard look at the OL and get some youth in there. I think they're good at OG, but the other three spots could all be upgraded. LB unit needs at least two parts, not even factoring in Connelly's ACL. They need move on up front from Olsen and Martin type soft players and Tomlinson as the NT, as well as FS.
Last night was a positive performance in terms of the team playing its arse off and sticking together. They're playing like they're in the race, and mathematically they are. But, they have a lot of talent work to do next Winter.
RE: RE: I still don't get the gushing over the defense Â
I suppose that, by the standards of Giants defense in 2019, it was a decent performance, but by objective NFL standards it was just another crappy night filled with missed tackles and blown coverages. They generated a pretty good pass rush at times, but let's remember who the Patriots are running out on OL these days before we get terribly excited.
Yes and no. Was the defense "good"? Up for debate. But what I saw last night was improvement against an offense that I expected to put up 35 points in legit fashion. The defense gave up 21 points. 7 of those came on a 20-yard field. And the final seven came late in the game.
Basically, the Patriots offense had two normal TD drives last night. You hold the Patriots to 14, you should win.
See, that I can respect - better than you'd expect them to look? Sure.
Good by any objective measure beyond the scoreboard? Not so sure. The Pats missed a FG and the weather favored a defensive matchup last night. They also knew full well that the Giants O was not scoring points in droves given their situation, so their offensive gameplan was likely far more conservative than normal.
When Tom Brady, at 42 years old scores 2 rushing touchdowns - I think you can hold back the 'great work' stickers somewhat.
A coach is going to struggle with how to handle game situations with a bad team. I mean, Shurmur has been forced many times to go for it on 4th down early in a game because not doing so is likely going to just see the D give up points. If he punts and pins a team inside the 5, he watches the opposition go for a 90+ yard drive.
I think most guys are going to look bad because you try to throw shit against a wall and it isn't sticking.
Now I really don't think Shurmur is a good coach. But it isn't like he has a good team and is burying them.
and honestly, not having our horses last night is completely valid. But let’s not pretend the issues with Shurmur are just from last night. Last night was like a perfect summary of all the reasons why he shouldn’t be “the guy” for us moving forward. The New York Giants are a championship franchise, he was a pussy last night in the most important moments. Time to move on after this season.
that is a good point. I just think bottom line, he’s not a good head coach in the NFL, and that won’t change over time. That being said, let’s see how he responds with a mostly healthy team the next few weeks.
They were on the field so much because the offense couldn't sustain drives or stay on the field. Almost every time we had the football, we'd wind up punting after a short drive or would turn the ball over.
You can't just look at the numbers and not acknowledge gameflow or circumstances. The defense clearly got gassed later in the game and just couldn't hold anymore. You could see that coming a mile away with the offense utterly incapable of establishing... anything.
No one is saying the defense is all-world, but given how positively AWFUL they've looked at times earlier in the year and all the youth we've got, is it that hard to acknowledge that maybe they're getting better and the young guys are ascending?
Guys like Baker and Lawrence are getting better every week. That means something.
I honestly don't know what we have with this team Â
i lean heavily towards the idea that our coaching staff/GM are sub par... but there are some definite bright spots on this team and there is a t least some sense that we are building towards something.
but the team is such a mish-mash of players that it is difficult to understand the grand plan.
Jones threw a long pass to Slayton. He was well covered but Danny still managed to get it to him high to where only he could catch it, if he does. Slayton CLEARLY should have caught it, but didn’t.
That one pass was indicative of the entire game. The receivers had very little separation and Danny was doing his best to make plays hoping his receivers could win the battles and more importantly, not drop it.
Unfortunately, like,that one long pass, many were not complete. No way do I fault Danny for throwing 50%. He took a beating because he held onto the ball hoping his receivers could get separation. We should all applaud and respect and honor him for that effort. If you think it is easy, you go out there letting guys 250 and more hitting your exposed body with nothing protecting you.
wasn't a good one, but he's been far from being a pussy.
He's actually been going for several 4th down conversions when we are at the opposition's 40. Even if it is 4th and 6 or more.
The complaint many are making, and it is valid, is that he's inconsistent in those decisions. I'd say that any coach of a below average team would be too. When he makes the right strategic decision to punt, the D lets him down. When he makes a wrong strategic decision he's raked over the coals.
A better team makes some of those decisions look a lot better.
I really don't envy any coach with this current roster. Next year, it will be better, so the question becomes - Will Shurmur hold that team back??
On a night with terrible weather. Sorry, I'm not going to spray champagne around in celebration over that.
Additionally, what happened after the Golden TD tied the game and the Giants had momentum? Right, the defense allowed the Pats to waltz down the field, 75 yards in four minutes, and score right before halftime.
They gave up 21 points and had 3 sacks, 1 INT, 1 forced fumble and a defensive TD. Against the best QB/HC in NFL history and the reigning SB Champions. The Giants offense did them no favors by turning the ball over 3 times (Not including the fumble the Pats returned for a TD).
are really underestimating the impact the weather played.
Both QB's had some terrible throws in the first half.
The second half when the wind died down a little, you could see much more crisp play, but the Giants couldn't get separation all night long.
I do think having Barkley to run and Engram on the intermediate routes would have helped, but this game came down to a fumble return for a TD and TOP. Jones didn't have anyone open all night.
Why should I bother typing all this stuff in when I can just cut & paste. Thanks!
and rotate construction screams of Mike McCarthy. I’d back up the truck for him in 2020 if Shurmur is gone
I don't think much of Mike McCarthy as others, but theres a lot of Aaron Rodgers game without the personality problems in DJ. I'd think he'd jump at the chance to coach us.
I don’t think anyone on this board is confident that Shurmur is a good coach. If we are still making excuses for him and saying “well maybe next year he will be better” after 2 seasons, it’s a failed tenure.
"If Barkley, Shepard, Engram play, we had a good shot..." Â
and Nugent missed a fairly routine FG. And, again, the weather conditions were far from conducive to offense. You people are grading on an enormous curve because you really want to believe the defense is actually good - but it's still really bad.
I think BB would have played us differently if... Â
...at the right time. I don't just mean play-calling. We need a guy that knows how to get the super max at of each and every player he trots out there.
The Head Coach does not need to be an X's and O's guy. That's what unit coordinators are for.
The problem with the Giants is that their Head Coach is an Offensive Coordinator and he ain't pushing anybody's buttons.
Yeah and if LT and Banks and Bavaro and the 08' OL and Tiki all in their prime found a time machine, we'd win every game!
Reality is we are Giant fans, and Giants don't play full seasons.
They get hurt, every fucking one.
Kind of a silly comparison.
Barkley, Engram and Shepard are actually current members of this football team. It's not like Eric is trying to summon past greats here... they're players on this team who are injured and probably would have made a difference in the way the game played out had they been available.
We still may well have lost... but I'm pretty damn sure that Saquon Barkley rather than Jonathan Hilliman would have made a pretty big difference.
if Gettleman is the type of guy who will move on from a HC if he realizes it’s not the answer. He’s done that with players, let’s see if he does that with Shurmur if he really has shown no improvement in his second year.
and Nugent missed a fairly routine FG. And, again, the weather conditions were far from conducive to offense. You people are grading on an enormous curve because you really want to believe the defense is actually good - but it's still really bad.
Nobody is grading on a curve. Nobody is saying they are good. They played a good game last night though.
the board is mainly driven by pessimism. And I'm not sure many fans are going to think a guy who hasn't had a winning record is good.
I honestly don't know what we have with Shurmur. I personally don't think he's a good coach, but I've been wrong on those assessments before.
We likely have a poor coach and a poor team. But you literally had posters last night calling him the worst coach in the league. I think one guy said he's the worst coach ever.
The dilemma we face is that a different coach isn't likely producing substantially different results with this team, so how do you evaluate what you have?
...
That one pass was indicative of the entire game. The receivers had very little separation and Danny was doing his best to make plays hoping his receivers could win the battles and more importantly, not drop it. ...
Separation was an issue Sunday and last night. Our receivers either are not starter quality or teams like the Pats have excellent, consistent coverage. Danny Dimes has his work cut out. I think he's up to it.
and Nugent missed a fairly routine FG. And, again, the weather conditions were far from conducive to offense. You people are grading on an enormous curve because you really want to believe the defense is actually good - but it's still really bad.
I don't believe the defense is actually good - I also don't buy that they're the worst defense in football, which I've read on this board several times.
You can't go from awful to good without taking any steps in between.
Anyone who says the defense wasn't better than they thought they'd be last night is lying. I was expecting NE's offense to have guys running wide open all night long and I was expecting them to move the ball at will and basically score at will. They didn't do any of that.
This was a 1 score game in the 4th quarter. We can spit on that and say who cares, but I thought they showed a little something and looked quite a bit better than they have at other junctures this year.
and Nugent missed a fairly routine FG. And, again, the weather conditions were far from conducive to offense. You people are grading on an enormous curve because you really want to believe the defense is actually good - but it's still really bad.
So the defense doesn't get credit for making a play on the interception?
Missing field goals is part of the game.
You argue we're stretching here, but so are you.
Last night represented progress for the defense. Can the build on it? Up for debate.
But I guarantee you there were Patriots fans in the stadium last night getting a bit nervous.
I know what good defense is, and that wasn't it. Hooray that they made a couple of big plays, but until they start making routine fucking tackles occasionally, and not letting receivers run free all fucking night, they will continue to be a laughingstock.
Did you note how almost every pass Jones made was to a receiver who was blanketed by a defender? THAT is a defense playing a good game. Brady was throwing to receivers who didn't have a defender in the same zip code.
the board is mainly driven by pessimism. And I'm not sure many fans are going to think a guy who hasn't had a winning record is good.
I honestly don't know what we have with Shurmur. I personally don't think he's a good coach, but I've been wrong on those assessments before.
We likely have a poor coach and a poor team. But you literally had posters last night calling him the worst coach in the league. I think one guy said he's the worst coach ever.
The dilemma we face is that a different coach isn't likely producing substantially different results with this team, so how do you evaluate what you have?
It's not pessimism it's results. Shurmur came in with a lousy record. He's continued that winning percentage almost unchanged here. It's not that people are being unfairly pessimistic towards him, it's that thus far, there aren't many positive signs of development that would warrant confidence in his ability, and his record suggests that's not going to change.
I know what good defense is, and that wasn't it. Hooray that they made a couple of big plays, but until they start making routine fucking tackles occasionally, and not letting receivers run free all fucking night, they will continue to be a laughingstock.
Did you note how almost every pass Jones made was to a receiver who was blanketed by a defender? THAT is a defense playing a good game. Brady was throwing to receivers who didn't have a defender in the same zip code.
You're missing the point.
The Giants were the 30th-ranked defense coming into this game. All we're saying was there was progress last night.
The Patriots looked like the #1 ranked defense that they are.
This defense is going to have issues until they find a consistent edge rusher, better inside linebackers, and a free safety.
Their stats have been padded by the schedule. They are going to have problems in the playoffs.
Like the thread says, Giants were in this. If they dominate AZ next week, then this team is easily middle of the pack team if not better. You would not know from the critique this morning, but this team is improving.
RE: RE: Brady threw a terrible pick in the end zone Â
and Nugent missed a fairly routine FG. And, again, the weather conditions were far from conducive to offense. You people are grading on an enormous curve because you really want to believe the defense is actually good - but it's still really bad.
So the defense doesn't get credit for making a play on the interception?
Missing field goals is part of the game.
You argue we're stretching here, but so are you.
Last night represented progress for the defense. Can the build on it? Up for debate.
But I guarantee you there were Patriots fans in the stadium last night getting a bit nervous.
Not sure how you cannot say both the offense and defense has not improved from last year and the year before. They are not super bowl bound, but they are improving. Flashes for both Lorenzo and Golden last night, even Jones with his 3 int looked unrattled. Alot of good with the bad last night.
If they aren't THE worst defense,they're certainly in the conversation Â
25th in points allowed. 31st in yards allowed. Those numbers include the game against the laughably inept and injury-riddled Redskins offense. In six games this year, they've allowed 494, 388, 499, 176 (Skins, obviously), 490, and 427 yards. They're really bad.
it was clear Pats OL could not handle our DL especially when we were blitzing or bringing another LB. and yet, it seemed like every 3rd and manageable we were rushing 3 guys and hoping that our LB and S could cover their quick WR which was clearly not going to happen. That’s bad in game coaching, we should have been blitzing the shit out of Brady all game.
I know what good defense is, and that wasn't it. Hooray that they made a couple of big plays, but until they start making routine fucking tackles occasionally, and not letting receivers run free all fucking night, they will continue to be a laughingstock.
Did you note how almost every pass Jones made was to a receiver who was blanketed by a defender? THAT is a defense playing a good game. Brady was throwing to receivers who didn't have a defender in the same zip code.
You're missing the point.
The Giants were the 30th-ranked defense coming into this game. All we're saying was there was progress last night.
The Patriots looked like the #1 ranked defense that they are.
This defense is going to have issues until they find a consistent edge rusher, better inside linebackers, and a free safety.
the game is Shurmur. The guy is clueless when it comes to in game management and has zero feel for what to do in important drives and situations. They played hard for him, but that’s not enough and that shouldn’t be the bar for a head coach.
This could be THE problem.
On the other hand, perhaps the rapid progression of Jones is due to him?
Who knows?
I'm not one to constantly lampoon Shurmur ... but I really think Jones walked in the door prepared. Maybe Shurmur has helped him, but maybe a guy like Shurmur should be helping a guy like Jones in the role of quarterback coach. Not head coach of the New York Football Giants.
It's not quite as bad as Mickey Calloway's tenure with the Mets, but I'm beginning to notice similarities.
Still supporting Shurmur. But despite the absence of a handful of critically important skills guys last night, I'm starting to detect warts in more visible places.
RE: RE: RE: Brady threw a terrible pick in the end zone Â
Not sure how you cannot say both the offense and defense has not improved from last year and the year before. They are not super bowl bound, but they are improving. Flashes for both Lorenzo and Golden last night, even Jones with his 3 int looked unrattled. Alot of good with the bad last night.
So tell me then, how exactly would you quantify this defensive progress? Because it sure as hell isn't in results. I've been hearing about Lorenzo Carter's "flashes" for a fucking year now. Whoopdeedoo. The Giants D was 25th in points and 31st in yards last year. Guess what they are this year? The exact. Same. Fucking. Thing.
I think people have lost the ability to think objectively Â
I'm not one to constantly lampoon Shurmur ... but I really think Jones walked in the door prepared.
One of the big pluses for Jones was that, having played for Cutcliffe, he'd be more prepared than most rookie QBs to step in and not be overwhelmed by the NFL because he'd been so well coached, and I think we're seeing that.
after this game as well. He really gets pissed and shows fire out there, and you could see it in the post game press conference that he was really upset that he left plays out there and they had a chance to win. He’s a competitor.
really awesome throws in this game. That being said, he had some bad rookie ones as well. Let’s see if he can build and hopefully put a couple good games together against Arizona and Detroit.
Everyone knew from the start of the season that this was a young defense that was going to have growing pains.
Why would anyone be surprised to see them ranking closer to the bottom of the league through 6 games? They weren't going to be fixed in week 1.
They're going to need to improve incrementally. We aren't waking up one day to a defense that is suddenly top 5 with no curve in between. I'm not sure what people were expecting to see last night.
Yeah? OK, so where are even the incremental improvements? Â
Multiple 3rd and 4th down stops - something that has plagued them for years
Actually hitting the QB even if it's not sacks
Collapsing the pocket somewhat
Baker has done a complete 180 since Week 1 and 2
If you couldn't see any difference between last night and week 1, I'm not sure what to tell ya.
The blown coverages against Dallas and Buffalo were ludicrous. There were guys running around with no one even in view on nearly every drive. I could have completed passes against us in either game.
Even against Tampa, guys were routinely wide open and barely contested.
There's a difference between claiming the defense is good/has arrived, and thinking they're a young unit that is showing some signs of improvement. The latter seems like a fair and rational observation - not sure why all the pushback or hyperbolic responses when no one is saying the defense is suddenly great or anything to write home about.
When your offense can't sustain drives, establish a ground game or stay on the field and your opponent is the Patriots in Foxboro... you're probably going to give up yards.
I did. Maybe not with the same frequency, but it was hardly unusual.
And the Pats aren't exactly loaded with receiving talent at the moment. Edelman's on the downslope, Gordon got hurt, no more Gronk, their 3 and 4 receivers last night were a pair of UDFA rookies, their starting TE was Giants castoff Matt Lacosse.
Nothing like earlier in the season. How many passes did Brady complete to guys who had no one around them? I can think of maybe 2-3 tops.
In Dallas it was happening almost every drive. We had no one near Cole Beasley in Week 2, either. He was getting wide open on 3rd down after 3rd down.
Interesting that the Patriots are awarded the injury excuse when it's not allowed to be used in our case, though...
When people have brought up the absence of Barkley, Shepard and Engram, the response has basically been "well, they'd just have changed their gameplan and scored more points"... but obviously that argument doesn't go both ways here.
You can't think of any reasons why anyone would extend more benefit of Â
Sure I can... but I'm not going to sit here and pity the Patriots for the team they had to go out there with last night at home. They still had more than enough talent to score points and win the game.
Before the game was played, people were almost universally predicting that the Giants would get absolutely murdered. It's almost like some of you guys are disappointed that they didn't.
How much motivation do you really think the Pats had last night... Â
you are just looking to be at all the bad. we are one of the youngest teams in the league. All of our stars on O are out and we found a way to compete with a team that is far superior from top to bottom. Say what you want about the coach and players but they played hard to the end. Thats what you want to see from your team, players that compete.
When we won our 2007 Superbowl we lost to the Pats in the final game but that proved to the team that we could compete with any team in the league and it carried us to the championship. i/m not saying that we will win the Superbowl, Im saying that this is a building block game.
there was a lot that went wrong early, mainly the blocked punt and some teams would have folded. But these guys played hard and had a chance late in the game. the score doesnt reflect that.
and rotate construction screams of Mike McCarthy. I’d back up the truck for him in 2020 if Shurmur is gone
I don't think much of Mike McCarthy as others, but theres a lot of Aaron Rodgers game without the personality problems in DJ. I'd think he'd jump at the chance to coach us.
McCarthy would be a good choice, however, maybe we need a defensive minded coach now. We need to get back to Giants dominating Defense.
is he can get the team to a certain point. Competitive, maybe even playoff challengers, but he doesn’t seem to be a HC you can win with. The problem is, if you can him, you start all over. That’s why hiring the right guy is THE most important factor to a turn around. He’s an upgrade over Mac, but doesn’t look like THE right guy. THAT’s a MAJOR problem!
Before the game was played, people were almost universally predicting that the Giants would get absolutely murdered. It's almost like some of you guys are disappointed that they didn't.
Flip that one around a bit - I think some people are being far too complimentary of a team that lost 35-14, in a game that they were never really a threat to win, where most of the defensive performance could be chalked up to a combination of Brady playing like shit and bad weather.
It's nice that they didn't get killed. It's not a sign that they're just about to turn the corner. They got murdered against the Vikings. Let's see what the next challenges hold, in teams that should be a lot closer to the Giants in talent level.
There were definitely good signs in this game.... Â
Giants were competitive and really it was much closer then score indicated, but if push came to shove, Pats could’ve moved the ball. They pretty much owned TOP 40 mins to 20. They controlled the game moreso in second half, but for the first time in a while, I was kind of excited to see a semblance of a real D.
Before the game was played, people were almost universally predicting that the Giants would get absolutely murdered. It's almost like some of you guys are disappointed that they didn't.
Flip that one around a bit - I think some people are being far too complimentary of a team that lost 35-14, in a game that they were never really a threat to win, where most of the defensive performance could be chalked up to a combination of Brady playing like shit and bad weather.
It's nice that they didn't get killed. It's not a sign that they're just about to turn the corner. They got murdered against the Vikings. Let's see what the next challenges hold, in teams that should be a lot closer to the Giants in talent level.
It's okay to give the Giants a smidge of credit sometimes. Not everything has to be chalked up to external factors like Brady playing shitty or the weather... we can say that the defense played better than expected but still have a ways to go.
Our QB had to play in the same crappy weather. So, if it was so detrimental to Brady, Jones - a rookie - should certainly be afforded that same excuse. Especially when he was without his RB, his RB's primary backup, his top WR, and his TE.
We can also find some encouraging signs without it needing to mean they're about to turn the corner.
I agree a team like Arizona should allow us to see if we're actually ascending at all or if we're just going week to week. Hopefully we'll have Barkley and Engram back. Who knows with Shepard.
...Evan Engram and Sterling Shepard and got their asses kicked up and down the field. So BFD they played better against the Pats with these two guys gone (along with Barkley.)
Who cares?
Daniel Jones has shown us some things that he (and the team) can build upon.
But as for this entire Giants team led by Pat Shurmur?
They got destroyed by Dallas; destroyed by Buffalo; destroyed by Minny; and hung in there against a Pats team that doubled our offensive output; doubled our time of possession; and came out 3 TDs ahead.
You are what your record says you are. That goes for the Giants at 2-4 and Pat Shurmur as a Head Coach 17-38.
For those who believe things are looking up. Great!
there's progress demonstrated in terms of fielding a hungry determined team that fights until the end. That's foundation progress in addition to the young talent they've assembled
I don't see Jones really getting much grief today, though Â
I think he had a bad game - and obviously, had more than enough contributing factors for that.
I think Brady had a shit game, and while he had some contributing factors, he should have done a much better job. Some of that was definitely on the Giants D, but a lot of it was just Brady leaving plays on the table.
....I'm not at all concerned with Jones' performance last night because there were so many factors working against him, including the wind. So while there may be some people giving that to Brady but not Jones, I'm not one of them.
"So your saying there's a chance" Means a heck of a lot. The team doesn't completely stink. There is some talent and reason for hope. They really need to find a 3 game winning streak somehow, someway, starting in one of the next 3 weeks to be playing meaningful football, but even if they don't they are better then the worst teams in the league. They were in the absolute bottom tier the past 2 years. Now they are at least 1 tier ahead of Miami and Washington. And they actually did win 2 in a row so it's not out of question they could find a way to win 3 in a row. Unlikely, but not completely crazy.
the board is mainly driven by pessimism. And I'm not sure many fans are going to think a guy who hasn't had a winning record is good.
I honestly don't know what we have with Shurmur. I personally don't think he's a good coach, but I've been wrong on those assessments before.
We likely have a poor coach and a poor team. But you literally had posters last night calling him the worst coach in the league. I think one guy said he's the worst coach ever.
The dilemma we face is that a different coach isn't likely producing substantially different results with this team, so how do you evaluate what you have?
It's not pessimism, it's reality. The Giants are and have been a terrible football team. I know we lead the NFL in excuses and moral victories, but the numbers don't lie.
you're point about coaches with bad teams making inconsistent decisions rings true to me.
I remember one year, Fassel clearly thought we had a good team and in the early part of the year he got very aggressive. We started going on 4th a lot more than we had before. But, it seemed the team was determined to let him down every time. This culminated with the famous pick six at the end of the first half versus the Cards. After that, McNally no longer had to hold onto his nuts because JF withdrew his chips from mid-table.
With the way our D played early in the year, it made sense to be more aggressive on 4th, because our D was not holding anyone up. In THIS game, our D was playing OK (but fading admittedly and I'd have gone for it in the 4th quarter there). I think he punted there because for this one game they way our D was playing, it felt like we might get a 3 and out. Of course they let him down. Just like when he called a timeout earlier in the game to save time at the end of the first half. If Peppers makes a tackle, that might have been a good call. But he whiffed, and it didn't really matter (though PS was getting beat up for it anyway here, though I don't know why since it had virtually no impact either way).
Really happy with the way our defense played.
Yes. It works both ways.
Both QB's had some terrible throws in the first half.
The second half when the wind died down a little, you could see much more crisp play, but the Giants couldn't get separation all night long.
I do think having Barkley to run and Engram on the intermediate routes would have helped, but this game came down to a fumble return for a TD and TOP. Jones didn't have anyone open all night.
Both QB's had some terrible throws in the first half.
The second half when the wind died down a little, you could see much more crisp play, but the Giants couldn't get separation all night long.
I was at the NC State-Syracuse game last night but tracked the Giants on my phone. I was actually shocked to see it was 21-14 entering the 4th quarter. I guess for me that was a moral victory.
I do think having Barkley to run and Engram on the intermediate routes would have helped, but this game came down to a fumble return for a TD and TOP. Jones didn't have anyone open all night.
Loved the fact that DJ came back out after throwing 2 INT's and threw a TD pass to Tate.
Very encouraged by that performance.
i could see 4-4 going into dallas monday night at metlife...
As the season goes on and we get Barkley, Engram and Shep back things will start looking better. Barkley alone will make the passing game better since teams will need to commit more people to stopping the run.
I think the defense played pretty well overall too. Mayo looks to be a solid 2 down LB. Carter looked pretty good, Golden has been solid. Baker has been pretty good. Dexter has been great most of the year.
I think things are slowly heading in the right direction.
But despite all this, I'm for the first time starting to worry what the HC sees.
4th and 2, 7 minutes left, down 14....you really do have to go for it there.
I just don't think he has a feel for the game.
...and a lot of BBIers are making a big deal about how the Giants hung close to the Pats last night.
The NFL is littered with decades of bad teams that "hung in there" against a much better team on a given day.
So, what?
They lost anyway and went on to lose the majority of their games.
We're not that good and we're not well coached.
Gotta take care of the coaching situation first.
This could be THE problem.
On the other hand, perhaps the rapid progression of Jones is due to him?
Who knows?
Why would you be pissed at Shurmur?
He's 17 - 38 as a Head Coach.
He deserves our pity, not our anger.
Quote:
That said, I think we'll be 3-4 after Arizona & does Detroit really scary anyone? Not me.
Yes. It works both ways.
No they weren't
Phillip Dorsett and Rex Burkhead were the only inactives that would have seen action. Dorsett is the 3rd receiver and Burkhead is the 3rd running back. That's not what I would call injured.
They were full strength on defense coming into the game and had some injuries during the game.
With some legit weapons, Jones will give the team a chance.
Hilliman is awful. We couldn't establish anything on the ground all night. He fumbled and turned the ball over again that led directly to 7 points the other way.
Hilliman is awful. We couldn't establish anything on the ground all night. He fumbled and turned the ball over again that led directly to 7 points the other way.
Maybe the worst RB I've ever seen in the NFL. He offers nothing. Misses holes. Doesn't break tackles. Not a home run threat. Barely a threat to gain 5 yards.
You play with the guys you have. They tried to sneak him through the blitz, but it didn't work. Pats had a few bad plays as well.
I think our d got a bit worn out from being on the field so long.
Is Shep coming back this year?
The Giants never had a good shot of winning. Even with those guys, it's OK to accept that the gap between these teams, both from a talent and coaching perspective, is so great that on the road in a historically difficult place to win their chances were slim to none.
BTW, I don't agree with this:
Gotta take care of the coaching situation first.
You have to take care of getting better players first. Everytime.
The Giants never had a good shot of winning. Even with those guys, it's OK to accept that the gap between these teams, both from a talent and coaching perspective, is so great that on the road in a historically difficult place to win their chances were slim to none.
It was a one-score game midway through the 4th quarter when we had something like 9 first downs. You don't think Saquon Barkley, Evan Engram, and Sterling Shepard would have had an impact on the offense?
Furthermore, without the rash of injuries at linebacker, that blocked punt doesn't happen.
I get what you are saying, but I couldn't believe we were in that game last night.
The Giants never had a good shot of winning. Even with those guys, it's OK to accept that the gap between these teams, both from a talent and coaching perspective, is so great that on the road in a historically difficult place to win their chances were slim to none.
i dont think it takes much mental gymnastics or home team bias to see we were competitive for at least half this game. with our 3 best offensive weapons playing i think its actually reasonable to think we would have been leading going into halftime. from there anything can happen.
It's fine to not want to accept a moral victory or just make it black and white and say.. a loss is a loss.
But, most people (including me) didn't even think the Giants would be remotely competitive last night.
I think you can look at that game and find some good takeaways on the defensive side of the ball. The 35 points are very misleading in terms of the defense. NE scored twice without them being on the field at all and they were also tasked with defending short fields on a few occasions because we struggled to even get a first down for much of the first half.
The offense was in an impossible situation in that stadium with a rookie QB, those winds, the missing weapons and the Patriots defense.
The loss counts as a loss whether we lose by 1 or 50.... but my takeaway was that I thought the defense took a step forward last night.
Get Barkley back and win the next game.
Like the thread says, Giants were in this. If they dominate AZ next week, then this team is easily middle of the pack team if not better. You would not know from the critique this morning, but this team is improving.
Quote:
when after a 35-14 victory in which you never had the lead you're typing 'we had a good shot of winning.'
The Giants never had a good shot of winning. Even with those guys, it's OK to accept that the gap between these teams, both from a talent and coaching perspective, is so great that on the road in a historically difficult place to win their chances were slim to none.
It was a one-score game midway through the 4th quarter when we had something like 9 first downs. You don't think Saquon Barkley, Evan Engram, and Sterling Shepard would have had an impact on the offense?
Furthermore, without the rash of injuries at linebacker, that blocked punt doesn't happen.
I get what you are saying, but I couldn't believe we were in that game last night.
I honestly don't - because I don't think the Giants would have been much more effective against that Patriots D even with those players, and they would have adjusted their offensive game plan accordingly if they had to score more.
Last night screamed of 'old man Brady in shitty weather on a short week'. If he didn't look like hot garbage for most of the night, that game could have gotten ugly fast.
Last night's takeaway was that Patriots OL looks bad (Marshall Newhouse anyone?) and Brady looks every bit of 42. Belichick wisely upgraded that defensive unit to be the strength of that team, but they are going to struggle mightily against a team with a strong defense.
They have a ways to go, but like I said... they didn't give up 35 points. Two touchdowns were scored without them even being on the field. They came up with a 4th down stop, had a few other stops. Forced a couple turnovers, scored a defensive TD... this all happened in Foxboro.
It's fine if you don't want to give that effort any credit, but we also have to at least be fair - everyone here was expecting the Pats offense to put a much bigger shellacking on this defense.
We had the football in the 4th quarter with a chance to tie the game.
To me, that means the defense did a pretty damn good job.
Holding the Patriots to 21 points is crappy? How many times has it been done since the start of 2018? I'd say it's probably 5 times or less in their last 25 games. Just a guess though.
Yes and no. Was the defense "good"? Up for debate. But what I saw last night was improvement against an offense that I expected to put up 35 points in legit fashion. The defense gave up 21 points. 7 of those came on a 20-yard field. And the final seven came late in the game.
Basically, the Patriots offense had two normal TD drives last night. You hold the Patriots to 14, you should win.
Those were plays we simply haven't made the past few years.
Additionally, what happened after the Golden TD tied the game and the Giants had momentum? Right, the defense allowed the Pats to waltz down the field, 75 yards in four minutes, and score right before halftime.
Injuries obviously are killing this team. The defense holding against 4th downs kept the score close into the 4th, otherwise the game probably would've gone as expected. I think it's clear tho the Pats offense is overrated at this stage.
Giants need to take a long, hard look at the OL and get some youth in there. I think they're good at OG, but the other three spots could all be upgraded. LB unit needs at least two parts, not even factoring in Connelly's ACL. They need move on up front from Olsen and Martin type soft players and Tomlinson as the NT, as well as FS.
Last night was a positive performance in terms of the team playing its arse off and sticking together. They're playing like they're in the race, and mathematically they are. But, they have a lot of talent work to do next Winter.
Quote:
I suppose that, by the standards of Giants defense in 2019, it was a decent performance, but by objective NFL standards it was just another crappy night filled with missed tackles and blown coverages. They generated a pretty good pass rush at times, but let's remember who the Patriots are running out on OL these days before we get terribly excited.
Yes and no. Was the defense "good"? Up for debate. But what I saw last night was improvement against an offense that I expected to put up 35 points in legit fashion. The defense gave up 21 points. 7 of those came on a 20-yard field. And the final seven came late in the game.
Basically, the Patriots offense had two normal TD drives last night. You hold the Patriots to 14, you should win.
See, that I can respect - better than you'd expect them to look? Sure.
Good by any objective measure beyond the scoreboard? Not so sure. The Pats missed a FG and the weather favored a defensive matchup last night. They also knew full well that the Giants O was not scoring points in droves given their situation, so their offensive gameplan was likely far more conservative than normal.
When Tom Brady, at 42 years old scores 2 rushing touchdowns - I think you can hold back the 'great work' stickers somewhat.
A coach is going to struggle with how to handle game situations with a bad team. I mean, Shurmur has been forced many times to go for it on 4th down early in a game because not doing so is likely going to just see the D give up points. If he punts and pins a team inside the 5, he watches the opposition go for a 90+ yard drive.
I think most guys are going to look bad because you try to throw shit against a wall and it isn't sticking.
Now I really don't think Shurmur is a good coach. But it isn't like he has a good team and is burying them.
They were on the field so much because the offense couldn't sustain drives or stay on the field. Almost every time we had the football, we'd wind up punting after a short drive or would turn the ball over.
You can't just look at the numbers and not acknowledge gameflow or circumstances. The defense clearly got gassed later in the game and just couldn't hold anymore. You could see that coming a mile away with the offense utterly incapable of establishing... anything.
No one is saying the defense is all-world, but given how positively AWFUL they've looked at times earlier in the year and all the youth we've got, is it that hard to acknowledge that maybe they're getting better and the young guys are ascending?
Guys like Baker and Lawrence are getting better every week. That means something.
but the team is such a mish-mash of players that it is difficult to understand the grand plan.
That one pass was indicative of the entire game. The receivers had very little separation and Danny was doing his best to make plays hoping his receivers could win the battles and more importantly, not drop it.
Unfortunately, like,that one long pass, many were not complete. No way do I fault Danny for throwing 50%. He took a beating because he held onto the ball hoping his receivers could get separation. We should all applaud and respect and honor him for that effort. If you think it is easy, you go out there letting guys 250 and more hitting your exposed body with nothing protecting you.
He's actually been going for several 4th down conversions when we are at the opposition's 40. Even if it is 4th and 6 or more.
The complaint many are making, and it is valid, is that he's inconsistent in those decisions. I'd say that any coach of a below average team would be too. When he makes the right strategic decision to punt, the D lets him down. When he makes a wrong strategic decision he's raked over the coals.
A better team makes some of those decisions look a lot better.
I really don't envy any coach with this current roster. Next year, it will be better, so the question becomes - Will Shurmur hold that team back??
Additionally, what happened after the Golden TD tied the game and the Giants had momentum? Right, the defense allowed the Pats to waltz down the field, 75 yards in four minutes, and score right before halftime.
They gave up 21 points and had 3 sacks, 1 INT, 1 forced fumble and a defensive TD. Against the best QB/HC in NFL history and the reigning SB Champions. The Giants offense did them no favors by turning the ball over 3 times (Not including the fumble the Pats returned for a TD).
Both QB's had some terrible throws in the first half.
The second half when the wind died down a little, you could see much more crisp play, but the Giants couldn't get separation all night long.
I do think having Barkley to run and Engram on the intermediate routes would have helped, but this game came down to a fumble return for a TD and TOP. Jones didn't have anyone open all night.
Why should I bother typing all this stuff in when I can just cut & paste. Thanks!
I don't think much of Mike McCarthy as others, but theres a lot of Aaron Rodgers game without the personality problems in DJ. I'd think he'd jump at the chance to coach us.
Reality is we are Giant fans, and Giants don't play full seasons.
They get hurt, every fucking one.
...at the right time. I don't just mean play-calling. We need a guy that knows how to get the super max at of each and every player he trots out there.
The Head Coach does not need to be an X's and O's guy. That's what unit coordinators are for.
The problem with the Giants is that their Head Coach is an Offensive Coordinator and he ain't pushing anybody's buttons.
Reality is we are Giant fans, and Giants don't play full seasons.
They get hurt, every fucking one.
Kind of a silly comparison.
Barkley, Engram and Shepard are actually current members of this football team. It's not like Eric is trying to summon past greats here... they're players on this team who are injured and probably would have made a difference in the way the game played out had they been available.
We still may well have lost... but I'm pretty damn sure that Saquon Barkley rather than Jonathan Hilliman would have made a pretty big difference.
Nobody is grading on a curve. Nobody is saying they are good. They played a good game last night though.
I honestly don't know what we have with Shurmur. I personally don't think he's a good coach, but I've been wrong on those assessments before.
We likely have a poor coach and a poor team. But you literally had posters last night calling him the worst coach in the league. I think one guy said he's the worst coach ever.
The dilemma we face is that a different coach isn't likely producing substantially different results with this team, so how do you evaluate what you have?
That one pass was indicative of the entire game. The receivers had very little separation and Danny was doing his best to make plays hoping his receivers could win the battles and more importantly, not drop it. ...
Separation was an issue Sunday and last night. Our receivers either are not starter quality or teams like the Pats have excellent, consistent coverage. Danny Dimes has his work cut out. I think he's up to it.
I don't believe the defense is actually good - I also don't buy that they're the worst defense in football, which I've read on this board several times.
You can't go from awful to good without taking any steps in between.
Anyone who says the defense wasn't better than they thought they'd be last night is lying. I was expecting NE's offense to have guys running wide open all night long and I was expecting them to move the ball at will and basically score at will. They didn't do any of that.
This was a 1 score game in the 4th quarter. We can spit on that and say who cares, but I thought they showed a little something and looked quite a bit better than they have at other junctures this year.
So the defense doesn't get credit for making a play on the interception?
Missing field goals is part of the game.
You argue we're stretching here, but so are you.
Last night represented progress for the defense. Can the build on it? Up for debate.
But I guarantee you there were Patriots fans in the stadium last night getting a bit nervous.
Did you note how almost every pass Jones made was to a receiver who was blanketed by a defender? THAT is a defense playing a good game. Brady was throwing to receivers who didn't have a defender in the same zip code.
Jones had time to throw last night - no one was getting open.
I honestly don't know what we have with Shurmur. I personally don't think he's a good coach, but I've been wrong on those assessments before.
We likely have a poor coach and a poor team. But you literally had posters last night calling him the worst coach in the league. I think one guy said he's the worst coach ever.
The dilemma we face is that a different coach isn't likely producing substantially different results with this team, so how do you evaluate what you have?
It's not pessimism it's results. Shurmur came in with a lousy record. He's continued that winning percentage almost unchanged here. It's not that people are being unfairly pessimistic towards him, it's that thus far, there aren't many positive signs of development that would warrant confidence in his ability, and his record suggests that's not going to change.
Did you note how almost every pass Jones made was to a receiver who was blanketed by a defender? THAT is a defense playing a good game. Brady was throwing to receivers who didn't have a defender in the same zip code.
You're missing the point.
The Giants were the 30th-ranked defense coming into this game. All we're saying was there was progress last night.
The Patriots looked like the #1 ranked defense that they are.
This defense is going to have issues until they find a consistent edge rusher, better inside linebackers, and a free safety.
In comment 14624258 stoneman said:
Like the thread says, Giants were in this. If they dominate AZ next week, then this team is easily middle of the pack team if not better. You would not know from the critique this morning, but this team is improving.
Quote:
and Nugent missed a fairly routine FG. And, again, the weather conditions were far from conducive to offense. You people are grading on an enormous curve because you really want to believe the defense is actually good - but it's still really bad.
So the defense doesn't get credit for making a play on the interception?
Missing field goals is part of the game.
You argue we're stretching here, but so are you.
Last night represented progress for the defense. Can the build on it? Up for debate.
But I guarantee you there were Patriots fans in the stadium last night getting a bit nervous.
Not sure how you cannot say both the offense and defense has not improved from last year and the year before. They are not super bowl bound, but they are improving. Flashes for both Lorenzo and Golden last night, even Jones with his 3 int looked unrattled. Alot of good with the bad last night.
Yes, they lost. But they flashed, we can build on this.
In comment 14624357 Eric from BBI said:
Quote:
I know what good defense is, and that wasn't it. Hooray that they made a couple of big plays, but until they start making routine fucking tackles occasionally, and not letting receivers run free all fucking night, they will continue to be a laughingstock.
Did you note how almost every pass Jones made was to a receiver who was blanketed by a defender? THAT is a defense playing a good game. Brady was throwing to receivers who didn't have a defender in the same zip code.
You're missing the point.
The Giants were the 30th-ranked defense coming into this game. All we're saying was there was progress last night.
The Patriots looked like the #1 ranked defense that they are.
This defense is going to have issues until they find a consistent edge rusher, better inside linebackers, and a free safety.
Quote:
the game is Shurmur. The guy is clueless when it comes to in game management and has zero feel for what to do in important drives and situations. They played hard for him, but that’s not enough and that shouldn’t be the bar for a head coach.
This could be THE problem.
On the other hand, perhaps the rapid progression of Jones is due to him?
Who knows?
I'm not one to constantly lampoon Shurmur ... but I really think Jones walked in the door prepared. Maybe Shurmur has helped him, but maybe a guy like Shurmur should be helping a guy like Jones in the role of quarterback coach. Not head coach of the New York Football Giants.
It's not quite as bad as Mickey Calloway's tenure with the Mets, but I'm beginning to notice similarities.
Still supporting Shurmur. But despite the absence of a handful of critically important skills guys last night, I'm starting to detect warts in more visible places.
So tell me then, how exactly would you quantify this defensive progress? Because it sure as hell isn't in results. I've been hearing about Lorenzo Carter's "flashes" for a fucking year now. Whoopdeedoo. The Giants D was 25th in points and 31st in yards last year. Guess what they are this year? The exact. Same. Fucking. Thing.
- The Redskins might be better than anyone thought
- The Redskins could be improving
- The Thursday Night Football product is shit to begin with, and the weather didn't help
One of the big pluses for Jones was that, having played for Cutcliffe, he'd be more prepared than most rookie QBs to step in and not be overwhelmed by the NFL because he'd been so well coached, and I think we're seeing that.
You literally had Gallup, Cooper and Evans running downfield with nobody within 15 yards of them
Why would anyone be surprised to see them ranking closer to the bottom of the league through 6 games? They weren't going to be fixed in week 1.
They're going to need to improve incrementally. We aren't waking up one day to a defense that is suddenly top 5 with no curve in between. I'm not sure what people were expecting to see last night.
You literally had Gallup, Cooper and Evans running downfield with nobody within 15 yards of them
So they've gone from unspeakably bad to merely routinely bad. Gotcha.
Multiple 3rd and 4th down stops - something that has plagued them for years
Actually hitting the QB even if it's not sacks
Collapsing the pocket somewhat
Baker has done a complete 180 since Week 1 and 2
They are progressing.
If you couldn't see any difference between last night and week 1, I'm not sure what to tell ya.
The blown coverages against Dallas and Buffalo were ludicrous. There were guys running around with no one even in view on nearly every drive. I could have completed passes against us in either game.
Even against Tampa, guys were routinely wide open and barely contested.
There's a difference between claiming the defense is good/has arrived, and thinking they're a young unit that is showing some signs of improvement. The latter seems like a fair and rational observation - not sure why all the pushback or hyperbolic responses when no one is saying the defense is suddenly great or anything to write home about.
When your offense can't sustain drives, establish a ground game or stay on the field and your opponent is the Patriots in Foxboro... you're probably going to give up yards.
And the Pats aren't exactly loaded with receiving talent at the moment. Edelman's on the downslope, Gordon got hurt, no more Gronk, their 3 and 4 receivers last night were a pair of UDFA rookies, their starting TE was Giants castoff Matt Lacosse.
Not exactly a dangerous group.
In Dallas it was happening almost every drive. We had no one near Cole Beasley in Week 2, either. He was getting wide open on 3rd down after 3rd down.
Interesting that the Patriots are awarded the injury excuse when it's not allowed to be used in our case, though...
When people have brought up the absence of Barkley, Shepard and Engram, the response has basically been "well, they'd just have changed their gameplan and scored more points"... but obviously that argument doesn't go both ways here.
Before the game was played, people were almost universally predicting that the Giants would get absolutely murdered. It's almost like some of you guys are disappointed that they didn't.
...playing a lower tier team without all its offensive weapons?
It's not like the Pats were playing a top team to decide which one gets homefield advantage throughout the playoffs.
The fact that the Giants hung tough against the Pats means jack-shit. The Pats played as hard as they needed to in order to beat the lowly Giants.
The Pats took care of business. Full stop.
And conversely, pissed off at how bad some of the veteran defensive players played, showing age and poor football instincts...
...playing a lower tier team without all its offensive weapons?
It's not like the Pats were playing a top team to decide which one gets homefield advantage throughout the playoffs.
The fact that the Giants hung tough against the Pats means jack-shit. The Pats played as hard as they needed to in order to beat the lowly Giants.
The Pats took care of business. Full stop.
Pretty sure a Belichick coached team doesn't need homefield advantage in the playoffs to be on the line to find motivation to win a football game.
You don't put the type of sheer dominance they have on display with that mentality.
This is all nonsense.
When we won our 2007 Superbowl we lost to the Pats in the final game but that proved to the team that we could compete with any team in the league and it carried us to the championship. i/m not saying that we will win the Superbowl, Im saying that this is a building block game.
there was a lot that went wrong early, mainly the blocked punt and some teams would have folded. But these guys played hard and had a chance late in the game. the score doesnt reflect that.
Quote:
and rotate construction screams of Mike McCarthy. I’d back up the truck for him in 2020 if Shurmur is gone
I don't think much of Mike McCarthy as others, but theres a lot of Aaron Rodgers game without the personality problems in DJ. I'd think he'd jump at the chance to coach us.
McCarthy would be a good choice, however, maybe we need a defensive minded coach now. We need to get back to Giants dominating Defense.
Before the game was played, people were almost universally predicting that the Giants would get absolutely murdered. It's almost like some of you guys are disappointed that they didn't.
Flip that one around a bit - I think some people are being far too complimentary of a team that lost 35-14, in a game that they were never really a threat to win, where most of the defensive performance could be chalked up to a combination of Brady playing like shit and bad weather.
It's nice that they didn't get killed. It's not a sign that they're just about to turn the corner. They got murdered against the Vikings. Let's see what the next challenges hold, in teams that should be a lot closer to the Giants in talent level.
Quote:
Before the game was played, people were almost universally predicting that the Giants would get absolutely murdered. It's almost like some of you guys are disappointed that they didn't.
Flip that one around a bit - I think some people are being far too complimentary of a team that lost 35-14, in a game that they were never really a threat to win, where most of the defensive performance could be chalked up to a combination of Brady playing like shit and bad weather.
It's nice that they didn't get killed. It's not a sign that they're just about to turn the corner. They got murdered against the Vikings. Let's see what the next challenges hold, in teams that should be a lot closer to the Giants in talent level.
It's okay to give the Giants a smidge of credit sometimes. Not everything has to be chalked up to external factors like Brady playing shitty or the weather... we can say that the defense played better than expected but still have a ways to go.
Our QB had to play in the same crappy weather. So, if it was so detrimental to Brady, Jones - a rookie - should certainly be afforded that same excuse. Especially when he was without his RB, his RB's primary backup, his top WR, and his TE.
We can also find some encouraging signs without it needing to mean they're about to turn the corner.
I agree a team like Arizona should allow us to see if we're actually ascending at all or if we're just going week to week. Hopefully we'll have Barkley and Engram back. Who knows with Shepard.
...Evan Engram and Sterling Shepard and got their asses kicked up and down the field. So BFD they played better against the Pats with these two guys gone (along with Barkley.)
Who cares?
Daniel Jones has shown us some things that he (and the team) can build upon.
But as for this entire Giants team led by Pat Shurmur?
They got destroyed by Dallas; destroyed by Buffalo; destroyed by Minny; and hung in there against a Pats team that doubled our offensive output; doubled our time of possession; and came out 3 TDs ahead.
You are what your record says you are. That goes for the Giants at 2-4 and Pat Shurmur as a Head Coach 17-38.
For those who believe things are looking up. Great!
I think Brady had a shit game, and while he had some contributing factors, he should have done a much better job. Some of that was definitely on the Giants D, but a lot of it was just Brady leaving plays on the table.
Patriots came out flat against Giants as top teams often do against weak competitors. Then they took control of the game and won by 21 points.
If Barkley, Engram, and Shep were healthy, you would have seen a much more focused Patriot team and probably the same type of lopsided result.
Also, Patriots were missing signficant personnel as well.
I honestly don't know what we have with Shurmur. I personally don't think he's a good coach, but I've been wrong on those assessments before.
We likely have a poor coach and a poor team. But you literally had posters last night calling him the worst coach in the league. I think one guy said he's the worst coach ever.
The dilemma we face is that a different coach isn't likely producing substantially different results with this team, so how do you evaluate what you have?
It's not pessimism, it's reality. The Giants are and have been a terrible football team. I know we lead the NFL in excuses and moral victories, but the numbers don't lie.
I remember one year, Fassel clearly thought we had a good team and in the early part of the year he got very aggressive. We started going on 4th a lot more than we had before. But, it seemed the team was determined to let him down every time. This culminated with the famous pick six at the end of the first half versus the Cards. After that, McNally no longer had to hold onto his nuts because JF withdrew his chips from mid-table.
With the way our D played early in the year, it made sense to be more aggressive on 4th, because our D was not holding anyone up. In THIS game, our D was playing OK (but fading admittedly and I'd have gone for it in the 4th quarter there). I think he punted there because for this one game they way our D was playing, it felt like we might get a 3 and out. Of course they let him down. Just like when he called a timeout earlier in the game to save time at the end of the first half. If Peppers makes a tackle, that might have been a good call. But he whiffed, and it didn't really matter (though PS was getting beat up for it anyway here, though I don't know why since it had virtually no impact either way).
Patriots came out flat against Giants as top teams often do against weak competitors. Then they took control of the game and won by 21 points.
If Barkley, Engram, and Shep were healthy, you would have seen a much more focused Patriot team and probably the same type of lopsided result.
Also, Patriots were missing signficant personnel as well.
Yep... this is what I was trying to say before, but you said it way much better!
Loved the fact that DJ came back out after throwing 2 INT's and threw a TD pass to Tate.
Very encouraged by that performance.
Unless your Greg "he wet blanket " from LI .
We certainly didn't look like the 30th ranked defense .