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If Barkley, Shepard, Engram play, we had a good shot...

Eric from BBI : Admin : 10/11/2019 8:59 am
of winning. Against the undefeated Super Bowl Champions. In their stadium. On Thursday night as the away team.

I'm not big into "moral" victories, but that is a very good sign.
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Pats were missing a lot of people too...  
SFGFNCGiantsFan : 10/11/2019 9:01 am : link
That said, I think we'll be 3-4 after Arizona & does Detroit really scary anyone? Not me.
Agreed.  
Tesla : 10/11/2019 9:01 am : link
Hell, even with those guys out if Stupar and Hilliman don't hand the Pats 14 points we are in that game right to the very end.

Really happy with the way our defense played.
RE: Pats were missing a lot of people too...  
Lines of Scrimmage : 10/11/2019 9:04 am : link
In comment 14624144 SFGFNCGiantsFan said:
Quote:
That said, I think we'll be 3-4 after Arizona & does Detroit really scary anyone? Not me.


Yes. It works both ways.
A lot of people..  
FatMan in Charlotte : 10/11/2019 9:04 am : link
are really underestimating the impact the weather played.

Both QB's had some terrible throws in the first half.

The second half when the wind died down a little, you could see much more crisp play, but the Giants couldn't get separation all night long.

I do think having Barkley to run and Engram on the intermediate routes would have helped, but this game came down to a fumble return for a TD and TOP. Jones didn't have anyone open all night.

I'd add 1 other thing - if the refs called the game like any other  
Eric on Li : 10/11/2019 9:05 am : link
as opposed to letting pats DB's clutch and grab almost every play. I know it's how they play and we don't have big name WR's, but Tate was interfered with. At least 2 or 3 borderline calls on Slayton went uncalled. I believe they flagged us for a few holdings that gave the Pats first downs on 3rd downs. In a game where our D had play 75 plays any first down would have been a big deal.
RE: A lot of people..  
Jints in Carolina : 10/11/2019 9:06 am : link
In comment 14624152 FatMan in Charlotte said:
Quote:
are really underestimating the impact the weather played.

Both QB's had some terrible throws in the first half.

The second half when the wind died down a little, you could see much more crisp play, but the Giants couldn't get separation all night long.

I was at the NC State-Syracuse game last night but tracked the Giants on my phone. I was actually shocked to see it was 21-14 entering the 4th quarter. I guess for me that was a moral victory.

I do think having Barkley to run and Engram on the intermediate routes would have helped, but this game came down to a fumble return for a TD and TOP. Jones didn't have anyone open all night.
that was weird...here is my comment  
Jints in Carolina : 10/11/2019 9:06 am : link
I was at the NC State-Syracuse game last night but tracked the Giants on my phone. I was actually shocked to see it was 21-14 entering the 4th quarter. I guess for me that was a moral victory.
I was very encouraged....  
Britt in VA : 10/11/2019 9:07 am : link
Loved the way the defense played.

Loved the fact that DJ came back out after throwing 2 INT's and threw a TD pass to Tate.

Very encouraged by that performance.
RE: Pats were missing a lot of people too...  
nygiants16 : 10/11/2019 9:09 am : link
In comment 14624144 SFGFNCGiantsFan said:
Quote:
That said, I think we'll be 3-4 after Arizona & does Detroit really scary anyone? Not me.


i could see 4-4 going into dallas monday night at metlife...


No separation from any pass catchers  
Eli Wilson : 10/11/2019 9:10 am : link
I think Jones hit one play where I though the guy catching the ball was open. He was constantly throwing to covered receivers.

As the season goes on and we get Barkley, Engram and Shep back things will start looking better. Barkley alone will make the passing game better since teams will need to commit more people to stopping the run.


I think the defense played pretty well overall too. Mayo looks to be a solid 2 down LB. Carter looked pretty good, Golden has been solid. Baker has been pretty good. Dexter has been great most of the year.

I think things are slowly heading in the right direction.
Biggest takeaway from  
ryanmkeane : 10/11/2019 9:10 am : link
the game is Shurmur. The guy is clueless when it comes to in game management and has zero feel for what to do in important drives and situations. They played hard for him, but thatís not enough and that shouldnít be the bar for a head coach.
not so sure we would have won...  
BillKo : 10/11/2019 9:10 am : link
....but the team did play hard. And defensively, they are looking better (esp Baker). It's a real shame Connerly got hurt.

But despite all this, I'm for the first time starting to worry what the HC sees.

4th and 2, 7 minutes left, down 14....you really do have to go for it there.

I just don't think he has a feel for the game.

The Pats played a conservative game  
GiantNatty : 10/11/2019 9:11 am : link
specifically because they knew the Giants had no weapons on offense and would be hard pressed to score. Had Barkley, Engram, and Shepherd played, the Patriots would have adjusted their game plan and lit up our secondary all night long.
Winning?  
gmenatlarge : 10/11/2019 9:11 am : link
Don't agree with that, giants had no shot even fully manned but they gave a good showing of themselves and am happy with that.
I'm not sure I buy it...  
M.S. : 10/11/2019 9:12 am : link

...and a lot of BBIers are making a big deal about how the Giants hung close to the Pats last night.

The NFL is littered with decades of bad teams that "hung in there" against a much better team on a given day.

So, what?

They lost anyway and went on to lose the majority of their games.

We're not that good and we're not well coached.

Gotta take care of the coaching situation first.
RE: Biggest takeaway from  
Eric from BBI : Admin : 10/11/2019 9:13 am : link
In comment 14624169 ryanmkeane said:
Quote:
the game is Shurmur. The guy is clueless when it comes to in game management and has zero feel for what to do in important drives and situations. They played hard for him, but thatís not enough and that shouldnít be the bar for a head coach.


This could be THE problem.

On the other hand, perhaps the rapid progression of Jones is due to him?

Who knows?
My biggest takeaway last night is that Shurmur continues to  
SFGFNCGiantsFan : 10/11/2019 9:14 am : link
piss me off. I get the whole 'Look, he had them competing' line, but this is the NFL. It's your job to show up. His decision to punt the ball on some 4th downs in the 4th really irked me. Some gutless, wussy calls. Except I wasn't screaming 'wussy' @ the TV, but a word that rhymes with it.
Down by 7 with 9 minutes to go  
ryanmkeane : 10/11/2019 9:14 am : link
and a 2nd and long from our own 30 and we are running up the middle with our 3rd string running back. Enough said really.
Eric I think itís possible  
ryanmkeane : 10/11/2019 9:15 am : link
that Shurmur is a solid QB guy and decent coordinator but a bad head coach. Thatís the issue.
RE: My biggest takeaway last night is that Shurmur continues to  
M.S. : 10/11/2019 9:16 am : link
In comment 14624186 SFGFNCGiantsFan said:
Quote:
piss me off. I get the whole 'Look, he had them competing' line, but this is the NFL. It's your job to show up. His decision to punt the ball on some 4th downs in the 4th really irked me. Some gutless, wussy calls. Except I wasn't screaming 'wussy' @ the TV, but a word that rhymes with it.


Why would you be pissed at Shurmur?

He's 17 - 38 as a Head Coach.

He deserves our pity, not our anger.
RE: RE: Pats were missing a lot of people too...  
stoneman : 10/11/2019 9:19 am : link
In comment 14624150 Lines of Scrimmage said:
Quote:
In comment 14624144 SFGFNCGiantsFan said:


Quote:


That said, I think we'll be 3-4 after Arizona & does Detroit really scary anyone? Not me.



Yes. It works both ways.



No they weren't

Phillip Dorsett and Rex Burkhead were the only inactives that would have seen action. Dorsett is the 3rd receiver and Burkhead is the 3rd running back. That's not what I would call injured.

They were full strength on defense coming into the game and had some injuries during the game.

Yup  
Rflairr : 10/11/2019 9:19 am : link
I mentioned this in the game thread and Jordan Rannan posted data from Next Gen to back it up.. It seemed like NE knew all the plays or no one was getting any separation. Yet Jones was still putting the ball right through some of those tight windows.

With some legit weapons, Jones will give the team a chance.
...  
Eric from BBI : Admin : 10/11/2019 9:19 am : link
I don't get punting either. But this game was decided on the Hilliman fumble.
.  
arcarsenal : 10/11/2019 9:20 am : link
Barkley was the biggest absence. Just adding him to the fold may have been enough to win that game.

Hilliman is awful. We couldn't establish anything on the ground all night. He fumbled and turned the ball over again that led directly to 7 points the other way.
RE: .  
Big Rick in FL : 10/11/2019 9:21 am : link
In comment 14624203 arcarsenal said:
Quote:
Barkley was the biggest absence. Just adding him to the fold may have been enough to win that game.

Hilliman is awful. We couldn't establish anything on the ground all night. He fumbled and turned the ball over again that led directly to 7 points the other way.


Maybe the worst RB I've ever seen in the NFL. He offers nothing. Misses holes. Doesn't break tackles. Not a home run threat. Barely a threat to gain 5 yards.
RE: Down by 7 with 9 minutes to go  
stoneman : 10/11/2019 9:22 am : link
In comment 14624187 ryanmkeane said:
Quote:
and a 2nd and long from our own 30 and we are running up the middle with our 3rd string running back. Enough said really.


You play with the guys you have. They tried to sneak him through the blitz, but it didn't work. Pats had a few bad plays as well.
I thought  
liteamorn : 10/11/2019 9:25 am : link
I thought we competed and considering offensively our biggest weapons @ the skill positions were out... well we were in it until the punt block

I think our d got a bit worn out from being on the field so long.

Is Shep coming back this year?
You know, you're sounding like a Jets fan  
jcn56 : 10/11/2019 9:27 am : link
when after a 35-14 victory in which you never had the lead you're typing 'we had a good shot of winning.'

The Giants never had a good shot of winning. Even with those guys, it's OK to accept that the gap between these teams, both from a talent and coaching perspective, is so great that on the road in a historically difficult place to win their chances were slim to none.
35-14 victory?  
jcn56 : 10/11/2019 9:27 am : link
I wish!
Don't people get tired of excuses?  
micky : 10/11/2019 9:28 am : link
.
I still..  
FatMan in Charlotte : 10/11/2019 9:30 am : link
chuckle that many people wanted Hilliman to be on the roster after the preseason performance. Now he's here, they are shitting all over him.

BTW, I don't agree with this:
Quote:
We're not that good and we're not well coached.

Gotta take care of the coaching situation first.


You have to take care of getting better players first. Everytime.
RE: You know, you're sounding like a Jets fan  
Eric from BBI : Admin : 10/11/2019 9:33 am : link
In comment 14624231 jcn56 said:
Quote:
when after a 35-14 victory in which you never had the lead you're typing 'we had a good shot of winning.'

The Giants never had a good shot of winning. Even with those guys, it's OK to accept that the gap between these teams, both from a talent and coaching perspective, is so great that on the road in a historically difficult place to win their chances were slim to none.


It was a one-score game midway through the 4th quarter when we had something like 9 first downs. You don't think Saquon Barkley, Evan Engram, and Sterling Shepard would have had an impact on the offense?

Furthermore, without the rash of injuries at linebacker, that blocked punt doesn't happen.

I get what you are saying, but I couldn't believe we were in that game last night.
RE: You know, you're sounding like a Jets fan  
2cents : 10/11/2019 9:34 am : link
In comment 14624231 jcn56 said:
Quote:
when after a 35-14 victory in which you never had the lead you're typing 'we had a good shot of winning.'

The Giants never had a good shot of winning. Even with those guys, it's OK to accept that the gap between these teams, both from a talent and coaching perspective, is so great that on the road in a historically difficult place to win their chances were slim to none.


i dont think it takes much mental gymnastics or home team bias to see we were competitive for at least half this game. with our 3 best offensive weapons playing i think its actually reasonable to think we would have been leading going into halftime. from there anything can happen.
.  
arcarsenal : 10/11/2019 9:34 am : link
I don't feel like the score was really indicative of the game.

It's fine to not want to accept a moral victory or just make it black and white and say.. a loss is a loss.

But, most people (including me) didn't even think the Giants would be remotely competitive last night.

I think you can look at that game and find some good takeaways on the defensive side of the ball. The 35 points are very misleading in terms of the defense. NE scored twice without them being on the field at all and they were also tasked with defending short fields on a few occasions because we struggled to even get a first down for much of the first half.

The offense was in an impossible situation in that stadium with a rookie QB, those winds, the missing weapons and the Patriots defense.

The loss counts as a loss whether we lose by 1 or 50.... but my takeaway was that I thought the defense took a step forward last night.

Get Barkley back and win the next game.
I still don't get the gushing over the defense  
Greg from LI : 10/11/2019 9:35 am : link
I suppose that, by the standards of Giants defense in 2019, it was a decent performance, but by objective NFL standards it was just another crappy night filled with missed tackles and blown coverages. They generated a pretty good pass rush at times, but let's remember who the Patriots are running out on OL these days before we get terribly excited.
Pats looked awful vunerable  
stoneman : 10/11/2019 9:37 am : link
Their stats have been padded by the schedule. They are going to have problems in the playoffs.

Like the thread says, Giants were in this. If they dominate AZ next week, then this team is easily middle of the pack team if not better. You would not know from the critique this morning, but this team is improving.
RE: RE: You know, you're sounding like a Jets fan  
jcn56 : 10/11/2019 9:38 am : link
In comment 14624246 Eric from BBI said:
Quote:
In comment 14624231 jcn56 said:


Quote:


when after a 35-14 victory in which you never had the lead you're typing 'we had a good shot of winning.'

The Giants never had a good shot of winning. Even with those guys, it's OK to accept that the gap between these teams, both from a talent and coaching perspective, is so great that on the road in a historically difficult place to win their chances were slim to none.



It was a one-score game midway through the 4th quarter when we had something like 9 first downs. You don't think Saquon Barkley, Evan Engram, and Sterling Shepard would have had an impact on the offense?

Furthermore, without the rash of injuries at linebacker, that blocked punt doesn't happen.

I get what you are saying, but I couldn't believe we were in that game last night.


I honestly don't - because I don't think the Giants would have been much more effective against that Patriots D even with those players, and they would have adjusted their offensive game plan accordingly if they had to score more.

Last night screamed of 'old man Brady in shitty weather on a short week'. If he didn't look like hot garbage for most of the night, that game could have gotten ugly fast.

Which, BTW - if you want a takeaway from last night  
jcn56 : 10/11/2019 9:40 am : link
I don't think there's much that we didn't already know about the Giants - flawed roster, defense that can't get a stop when it needs it, Jones has promise but he's raw...

Last night's takeaway was that Patriots OL looks bad (Marshall Newhouse anyone?) and Brady looks every bit of 42. Belichick wisely upgraded that defensive unit to be the strength of that team, but they are going to struggle mightily against a team with a strong defense.
.  
arcarsenal : 10/11/2019 9:40 am : link
People were saying this was the worst defense in football as recently as 2-3 weeks ago. I think it's fair to bring up that they certainly didn't look like the worst defense in football last night.

They have a ways to go, but like I said... they didn't give up 35 points. Two touchdowns were scored without them even being on the field. They came up with a 4th down stop, had a few other stops. Forced a couple turnovers, scored a defensive TD... this all happened in Foxboro.

It's fine if you don't want to give that effort any credit, but we also have to at least be fair - everyone here was expecting the Pats offense to put a much bigger shellacking on this defense.

We had the football in the 4th quarter with a chance to tie the game.

To me, that means the defense did a pretty damn good job.
RE: I still don't get the gushing over the defense  
Big Rick in FL : 10/11/2019 9:40 am : link
In comment 14624254 Greg from LI said:
Quote:
I suppose that, by the standards of Giants defense in 2019, it was a decent performance, but by objective NFL standards it was just another crappy night filled with missed tackles and blown coverages. They generated a pretty good pass rush at times, but let's remember who the Patriots are running out on OL these days before we get terribly excited.


Holding the Patriots to 21 points is crappy? How many times has it been done since the start of 2018? I'd say it's probably 5 times or less in their last 25 games. Just a guess though.
It's hard to get excited for anything  
Mr. Bungle : 10/11/2019 9:43 am : link
while Shurmur is the head coach. This franchise will be stuck in neutral until they get a better head coach.
RE: I still don't get the gushing over the defense  
Eric from BBI : Admin : 10/11/2019 9:43 am : link
In comment 14624254 Greg from LI said:
Quote:
I suppose that, by the standards of Giants defense in 2019, it was a decent performance, but by objective NFL standards it was just another crappy night filled with missed tackles and blown coverages. They generated a pretty good pass rush at times, but let's remember who the Patriots are running out on OL these days before we get terribly excited.


Yes and no. Was the defense "good"? Up for debate. But what I saw last night was improvement against an offense that I expected to put up 35 points in legit fashion. The defense gave up 21 points. 7 of those came on a 20-yard field. And the final seven came late in the game.

Basically, the Patriots offense had two normal TD drives last night. You hold the Patriots to 14, you should win.
Just watching the D..  
FatMan in Charlotte : 10/11/2019 9:44 am : link
make several 4th down stops was impressive, especially the run play at the point of attack.

Those were plays we simply haven't made the past few years.
FMIC  
ryanmkeane : 10/11/2019 9:45 am : link
while I agree with you that you gotta get better players, the head coach of a NFL team is always the main difference maker ASIDE from the QB. Look at all these teams having success with backups, injuries, etc. I get that we are playing a rookie QB and had all backups in there with skill players. But you still have to show some semblance of being a good coach even with those things. We saw it all last season - Shurmur struggles with basic feel of a game. For all the issues that McAdoo had and trust me, he needed and deserved to get fired, but he did have a solid feel for a game and situational play calling. Shurmur is like the opposite of him, the players like him and play hard for him but he has zero feel for the game as itís happening. And I donít really think that that kinda thing gets better over time. It just is.
427 yards and 39 minutes of possession  
Greg from LI : 10/11/2019 9:47 am : link
On a night with terrible weather. Sorry, I'm not going to spray champagne around in celebration over that.

Additionally, what happened after the Golden TD tied the game and the Giants had momentum? Right, the defense allowed the Pats to waltz down the field, 75 yards in four minutes, and score right before halftime.
Giants have a few obvious problems  
JonC : 10/11/2019 9:48 am : link
Shurmur as head coach appears to be one of them. While they play hard for him, he absolutely stinks managing games, challenges, and often shows little feel for the game on offense, where he's supposed to be really good. His record speaks for itself.

Injuries obviously are killing this team. The defense holding against 4th downs kept the score close into the 4th, otherwise the game probably would've gone as expected. I think it's clear tho the Pats offense is overrated at this stage.

Giants need to take a long, hard look at the OL and get some youth in there. I think they're good at OG, but the other three spots could all be upgraded. LB unit needs at least two parts, not even factoring in Connelly's ACL. They need move on up front from Olsen and Martin type soft players and Tomlinson as the NT, as well as FS.

Last night was a positive performance in terms of the team playing its arse off and sticking together. They're playing like they're in the race, and mathematically they are. But, they have a lot of talent work to do next Winter.
RE: RE: I still don't get the gushing over the defense  
jcn56 : 10/11/2019 9:49 am : link
In comment 14624274 Eric from BBI said:
Quote:
In comment 14624254 Greg from LI said:


Quote:


I suppose that, by the standards of Giants defense in 2019, it was a decent performance, but by objective NFL standards it was just another crappy night filled with missed tackles and blown coverages. They generated a pretty good pass rush at times, but let's remember who the Patriots are running out on OL these days before we get terribly excited.



Yes and no. Was the defense "good"? Up for debate. But what I saw last night was improvement against an offense that I expected to put up 35 points in legit fashion. The defense gave up 21 points. 7 of those came on a 20-yard field. And the final seven came late in the game.

Basically, the Patriots offense had two normal TD drives last night. You hold the Patriots to 14, you should win.


See, that I can respect - better than you'd expect them to look? Sure.

Good by any objective measure beyond the scoreboard? Not so sure. The Pats missed a FG and the weather favored a defensive matchup last night. They also knew full well that the Giants O was not scoring points in droves given their situation, so their offensive gameplan was likely far more conservative than normal.

When Tom Brady, at 42 years old scores 2 rushing touchdowns - I think you can hold back the 'great work' stickers somewhat.
ryan..  
FatMan in Charlotte : 10/11/2019 9:49 am : link
I think it is a chicken/egg thing though.

A coach is going to struggle with how to handle game situations with a bad team. I mean, Shurmur has been forced many times to go for it on 4th down early in a game because not doing so is likely going to just see the D give up points. If he punts and pins a team inside the 5, he watches the opposition go for a 90+ yard drive.

I think most guys are going to look bad because you try to throw shit against a wall and it isn't sticking.

Now I really don't think Shurmur is a good coach. But it isn't like he has a good team and is burying them.
Thereís always excuses to be made  
ryanmkeane : 10/11/2019 9:50 am : link
and honestly, not having our horses last night is completely valid. But letís not pretend the issues with Shurmur are just from last night. Last night was like a perfect summary of all the reasons why he shouldnít be ďthe guyĒ for us moving forward. The New York Giants are a championship franchise, he was a pussy last night in the most important moments. Time to move on after this season.
Fat Man  
ryanmkeane : 10/11/2019 9:52 am : link
that is a good point. I just think bottom line, heís not a good head coach in the NFL, and that wonít change over time. That being said, letís see how he responds with a mostly healthy team the next few weeks.
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