Big Blue Interactive The Corner Forum  
Back to the Corner

Archived Thread

If Barkley, Shepard, Engram play, we had a good shot...

Eric from BBI : Admin : 10/11/2019 8:59 am
of winning. Against the undefeated Super Bowl Champions. In their stadium. On Thursday night as the away team.

I'm not big into "moral" victories, but that is a very good sign.
Pages: 1 2 3 <<Prev | Show All |  Next>>
.  
arcarsenal : 10/11/2019 9:52 am : link
Who's asking you to spray champagne?

They were on the field so much because the offense couldn't sustain drives or stay on the field. Almost every time we had the football, we'd wind up punting after a short drive or would turn the ball over.

You can't just look at the numbers and not acknowledge gameflow or circumstances. The defense clearly got gassed later in the game and just couldn't hold anymore. You could see that coming a mile away with the offense utterly incapable of establishing... anything.

No one is saying the defense is all-world, but given how positively AWFUL they've looked at times earlier in the year and all the youth we've got, is it that hard to acknowledge that maybe they're getting better and the young guys are ascending?

Guys like Baker and Lawrence are getting better every week. That means something.
I honestly don't know what we have with this team  
LG in NYC : 10/11/2019 9:53 am : link
i lean heavily towards the idea that our coaching staff/GM are sub par... but there are some definite bright spots on this team and there is a t least some sense that we are building towards something.

but the team is such a mish-mash of players that it is difficult to understand the grand plan.

Gettlemanís idea for this team  
ryanmkeane : 10/11/2019 9:54 am : link
and rotate construction screams of Mike McCarthy. Iíd back up the truck for him in 2020 if Shurmur is gone
Go back to The last pass of the game  
5BowlsSoon : 10/11/2019 9:54 am : link
Jones threw a long pass to Slayton. He was well covered but Danny still managed to get it to him high to where only he could catch it, if he does. Slayton CLEARLY should have caught it, but didnít.

That one pass was indicative of the entire game. The receivers had very little separation and Danny was doing his best to make plays hoping his receivers could win the battles and more importantly, not drop it.

Unfortunately, like,that one long pass, many were not complete. No way do I fault Danny for throwing 50%. He took a beating because he held onto the ball hoping his receivers could get separation. We should all applaud and respect and honor him for that effort. If you think it is easy, you go out there letting guys 250 and more hitting your exposed body with nothing protecting you.
Meant to say roster  
ryanmkeane : 10/11/2019 9:55 am : link
construction
The decision to punt..  
FatMan in Charlotte : 10/11/2019 9:55 am : link
wasn't a good one, but he's been far from being a pussy.

He's actually been going for several 4th down conversions when we are at the opposition's 40. Even if it is 4th and 6 or more.

The complaint many are making, and it is valid, is that he's inconsistent in those decisions. I'd say that any coach of a below average team would be too. When he makes the right strategic decision to punt, the D lets him down. When he makes a wrong strategic decision he's raked over the coals.

A better team makes some of those decisions look a lot better.

I really don't envy any coach with this current roster. Next year, it will be better, so the question becomes - Will Shurmur hold that team back??
RE: 427 yards and 39 minutes of possession  
Big Rick in FL : 10/11/2019 9:55 am : link
In comment 14624286 Greg from LI said:
Quote:
On a night with terrible weather. Sorry, I'm not going to spray champagne around in celebration over that.

Additionally, what happened after the Golden TD tied the game and the Giants had momentum? Right, the defense allowed the Pats to waltz down the field, 75 yards in four minutes, and score right before halftime.


They gave up 21 points and had 3 sacks, 1 INT, 1 forced fumble and a defensive TD. Against the best QB/HC in NFL history and the reigning SB Champions. The Giants offense did them no favors by turning the ball over 3 times (Not including the fumble the Pats returned for a TD).
RE: A lot of people..  
mrvax : 10/11/2019 9:56 am : link
In comment 14624152 FatMan in Charlotte said:
Quote:
are really underestimating the impact the weather played.

Both QB's had some terrible throws in the first half.

The second half when the wind died down a little, you could see much more crisp play, but the Giants couldn't get separation all night long.

I do think having Barkley to run and Engram on the intermediate routes would have helped, but this game came down to a fumble return for a TD and TOP. Jones didn't have anyone open all night.


Why should I bother typing all this stuff in when I can just cut & paste. Thanks!
RE: Gettlemanís idea for this team  
Zeke's Alibi : 10/11/2019 9:57 am : link
In comment 14624308 ryanmkeane said:
Quote:
and rotate construction screams of Mike McCarthy. Iíd back up the truck for him in 2020 if Shurmur is gone


I don't think much of Mike McCarthy as others, but theres a lot of Aaron Rodgers game without the personality problems in DJ. I'd think he'd jump at the chance to coach us.
Fat Man  
ryanmkeane : 10/11/2019 9:57 am : link
I donít think anyone on this board is confident that Shurmur is a good coach. If we are still making excuses for him and saying ďwell maybe next year he will be betterĒ after 2 seasons, itís a failed tenure.
"If Barkley, Shepard, Engram play, we had a good shot..."  
x meadowlander : 10/11/2019 9:57 am : link
Yeah and if LT and Banks and Bavaro and the 08' OL and Tiki all in their prime found a time machine, we'd win every game!

Reality is we are Giant fans, and Giants don't play full seasons.

They get hurt, every fucking one.
Brady threw a terrible pick in the end zone  
Greg from LI : 10/11/2019 9:58 am : link
and Nugent missed a fairly routine FG. And, again, the weather conditions were far from conducive to offense. You people are grading on an enormous curve because you really want to believe the defense is actually good - but it's still really bad.
I think BB would have played us differently if...  
EricJ : 10/11/2019 9:58 am : link
those guys were starting on our side
Giants need a Head Coach who can push the right buttons...  
M.S. : 10/11/2019 9:58 am : link

...at the right time. I don't just mean play-calling. We need a guy that knows how to get the super max at of each and every player he trots out there.

The Head Coach does not need to be an X's and O's guy. That's what unit coordinators are for.

The problem with the Giants is that their Head Coach is an Offensive Coordinator and he ain't pushing anybody's buttons.
RE:  
arcarsenal : 10/11/2019 9:59 am : link
In comment 14624321 x meadowlander said:
Quote:
Yeah and if LT and Banks and Bavaro and the 08' OL and Tiki all in their prime found a time machine, we'd win every game!

Reality is we are Giant fans, and Giants don't play full seasons.

They get hurt, every fucking one.


Kind of a silly comparison.

Barkley, Engram and Shepard are actually current members of this football team. It's not like Eric is trying to summon past greats here... they're players on this team who are injured and probably would have made a difference in the way the game played out had they been available.

We still may well have lost... but I'm pretty damn sure that Saquon Barkley rather than Jonathan Hilliman would have made a pretty big difference.
The interesting thing will be  
ryanmkeane : 10/11/2019 9:59 am : link
if Gettleman is the type of guy who will move on from a HC if he realizes itís not the answer. Heís done that with players, letís see if he does that with Shurmur if he really has shown no improvement in his second year.
RE: Brady threw a terrible pick in the end zone  
Big Rick in FL : 10/11/2019 10:00 am : link
In comment 14624322 Greg from LI said:
Quote:
and Nugent missed a fairly routine FG. And, again, the weather conditions were far from conducive to offense. You people are grading on an enormous curve because you really want to believe the defense is actually good - but it's still really bad.



Nobody is grading on a curve. Nobody is saying they are good. They played a good game last night though.
To be fair..  
FatMan in Charlotte : 10/11/2019 10:01 am : link
the board is mainly driven by pessimism. And I'm not sure many fans are going to think a guy who hasn't had a winning record is good.

I honestly don't know what we have with Shurmur. I personally don't think he's a good coach, but I've been wrong on those assessments before.

We likely have a poor coach and a poor team. But you literally had posters last night calling him the worst coach in the league. I think one guy said he's the worst coach ever.

The dilemma we face is that a different coach isn't likely producing substantially different results with this team, so how do you evaluate what you have?
RE: Go back to The last pass of the game  
mrvax : 10/11/2019 10:02 am : link
In comment 14624310 5BowlsSoon said:
Quote:
...
That one pass was indicative of the entire game. The receivers had very little separation and Danny was doing his best to make plays hoping his receivers could win the battles and more importantly, not drop it. ...


Separation was an issue Sunday and last night. Our receivers either are not starter quality or teams like the Pats have excellent, consistent coverage. Danny Dimes has his work cut out. I think he's up to it.
RE: Brady threw a terrible pick in the end zone  
arcarsenal : 10/11/2019 10:02 am : link
In comment 14624322 Greg from LI said:
Quote:
and Nugent missed a fairly routine FG. And, again, the weather conditions were far from conducive to offense. You people are grading on an enormous curve because you really want to believe the defense is actually good - but it's still really bad.


I don't believe the defense is actually good - I also don't buy that they're the worst defense in football, which I've read on this board several times.

You can't go from awful to good without taking any steps in between.

Anyone who says the defense wasn't better than they thought they'd be last night is lying. I was expecting NE's offense to have guys running wide open all night long and I was expecting them to move the ball at will and basically score at will. They didn't do any of that.

This was a 1 score game in the 4th quarter. We can spit on that and say who cares, but I thought they showed a little something and looked quite a bit better than they have at other junctures this year.
RE: Brady threw a terrible pick in the end zone  
Eric from BBI : Admin : 10/11/2019 10:03 am : link
In comment 14624322 Greg from LI said:
Quote:
and Nugent missed a fairly routine FG. And, again, the weather conditions were far from conducive to offense. You people are grading on an enormous curve because you really want to believe the defense is actually good - but it's still really bad.


So the defense doesn't get credit for making a play on the interception?

Missing field goals is part of the game.

You argue we're stretching here, but so are you.

Last night represented progress for the defense. Can the build on it? Up for debate.

But I guarantee you there were Patriots fans in the stadium last night getting a bit nervous.
Believe what you want to  
Greg from LI : 10/11/2019 10:05 am : link
I know what good defense is, and that wasn't it. Hooray that they made a couple of big plays, but until they start making routine fucking tackles occasionally, and not letting receivers run free all fucking night, they will continue to be a laughingstock.

Did you note how almost every pass Jones made was to a receiver who was blanketed by a defender? THAT is a defense playing a good game. Brady was throwing to receivers who didn't have a defender in the same zip code.
except for falling asleep on late Edelman throw  
bc4life : 10/11/2019 10:05 am : link
Defense played fairly well.

Jones had time to throw last night - no one was getting open.
All I know is that the clock is ticking  
ryanmkeane : 10/11/2019 10:05 am : link
on Shurmur and if we lose to Arizona at home...
RE: To be fair..  
jcn56 : 10/11/2019 10:06 am : link
In comment 14624334 FatMan in Charlotte said:
Quote:
the board is mainly driven by pessimism. And I'm not sure many fans are going to think a guy who hasn't had a winning record is good.

I honestly don't know what we have with Shurmur. I personally don't think he's a good coach, but I've been wrong on those assessments before.

We likely have a poor coach and a poor team. But you literally had posters last night calling him the worst coach in the league. I think one guy said he's the worst coach ever.

The dilemma we face is that a different coach isn't likely producing substantially different results with this team, so how do you evaluate what you have?


It's not pessimism it's results. Shurmur came in with a lousy record. He's continued that winning percentage almost unchanged here. It's not that people are being unfairly pessimistic towards him, it's that thus far, there aren't many positive signs of development that would warrant confidence in his ability, and his record suggests that's not going to change.
RE: Believe what you want to  
Eric from BBI : Admin : 10/11/2019 10:06 am : link
In comment 14624346 Greg from LI said:
Quote:
I know what good defense is, and that wasn't it. Hooray that they made a couple of big plays, but until they start making routine fucking tackles occasionally, and not letting receivers run free all fucking night, they will continue to be a laughingstock.

Did you note how almost every pass Jones made was to a receiver who was blanketed by a defender? THAT is a defense playing a good game. Brady was throwing to receivers who didn't have a defender in the same zip code.


You're missing the point.

The Giants were the 30th-ranked defense coming into this game. All we're saying was there was progress last night.

The Patriots looked like the #1 ranked defense that they are.

This defense is going to have issues until they find a consistent edge rusher, better inside linebackers, and a free safety.
.  
arcarsenal : 10/11/2019 10:07 am : link
Poor tackling is a league-wide issue. This isn't unique to the Giants.
Defense isn't great @ all.  
SFGFNCGiantsFan : 10/11/2019 10:08 am : link
But you're blind if you don't think it's gotten better.
RE: Pats looked awful vunerable  
Rong5611 : 10/11/2019 10:09 am : link
Yep. Their OL isn't that good. Their secondary will need to carry them.

In comment 14624258 stoneman said:
Quote:
Their stats have been padded by the schedule. They are going to have problems in the playoffs.

Like the thread says, Giants were in this. If they dominate AZ next week, then this team is easily middle of the pack team if not better. You would not know from the critique this morning, but this team is improving.
RE: RE: Brady threw a terrible pick in the end zone  
stoneman : 10/11/2019 10:10 am : link
In comment 14624340 Eric from BBI said:
Quote:
In comment 14624322 Greg from LI said:


Quote:


and Nugent missed a fairly routine FG. And, again, the weather conditions were far from conducive to offense. You people are grading on an enormous curve because you really want to believe the defense is actually good - but it's still really bad.



So the defense doesn't get credit for making a play on the interception?

Missing field goals is part of the game.

You argue we're stretching here, but so are you.

Last night represented progress for the defense. Can the build on it? Up for debate.

But I guarantee you there were Patriots fans in the stadium last night getting a bit nervous.


Not sure how you cannot say both the offense and defense has not improved from last year and the year before. They are not super bowl bound, but they are improving. Flashes for both Lorenzo and Golden last night, even Jones with his 3 int looked unrattled. Alot of good with the bad last night.
If they aren't THE worst defense,they're certainly in the conversation  
Greg from LI : 10/11/2019 10:11 am : link
25th in points allowed. 31st in yards allowed. Those numbers include the game against the laughably inept and injury-riddled Redskins offense. In six games this year, they've allowed 494, 388, 499, 176 (Skins, obviously), 490, and 427 yards. They're really bad.
Hereís another thing from last night  
ryanmkeane : 10/11/2019 10:12 am : link
it was clear Pats OL could not handle our DL especially when we were blitzing or bringing another LB. and yet, it seemed like every 3rd and manageable we were rushing 3 guys and hoping that our LB and S could cover their quick WR which was clearly not going to happen. Thatís bad in game coaching, we should have been blitzing the shit out of Brady all game.
RE: RE: Believe what you want to  
Rong5611 : 10/11/2019 10:14 am : link
Well said Eric. They hung with the champs.

Yes, they lost. But they flashed, we can build on this.

In comment 14624357 Eric from BBI said:
Quote:
In comment 14624346 Greg from LI said:


Quote:


I know what good defense is, and that wasn't it. Hooray that they made a couple of big plays, but until they start making routine fucking tackles occasionally, and not letting receivers run free all fucking night, they will continue to be a laughingstock.

Did you note how almost every pass Jones made was to a receiver who was blanketed by a defender? THAT is a defense playing a good game. Brady was throwing to receivers who didn't have a defender in the same zip code.



You're missing the point.

The Giants were the 30th-ranked defense coming into this game. All we're saying was there was progress last night.

The Patriots looked like the #1 ranked defense that they are.

This defense is going to have issues until they find a consistent edge rusher, better inside linebackers, and a free safety.
RE: RE: Biggest takeaway from  
Beezer : 10/11/2019 10:15 am : link
In comment 14624185 Eric from BBI said:
Quote:
In comment 14624169 ryanmkeane said:


Quote:


the game is Shurmur. The guy is clueless when it comes to in game management and has zero feel for what to do in important drives and situations. They played hard for him, but thatís not enough and that shouldnít be the bar for a head coach.



This could be THE problem.

On the other hand, perhaps the rapid progression of Jones is due to him?

Who knows?


I'm not one to constantly lampoon Shurmur ... but I really think Jones walked in the door prepared. Maybe Shurmur has helped him, but maybe a guy like Shurmur should be helping a guy like Jones in the role of quarterback coach. Not head coach of the New York Football Giants.

It's not quite as bad as Mickey Calloway's tenure with the Mets, but I'm beginning to notice similarities.

Still supporting Shurmur. But despite the absence of a handful of critically important skills guys last night, I'm starting to detect warts in more visible places.
RE: RE: RE: Brady threw a terrible pick in the end zone  
Greg from LI : 10/11/2019 10:16 am : link
In comment 14624366 stoneman said:
Quote:
Not sure how you cannot say both the offense and defense has not improved from last year and the year before. They are not super bowl bound, but they are improving. Flashes for both Lorenzo and Golden last night, even Jones with his 3 int looked unrattled. Alot of good with the bad last night.


So tell me then, how exactly would you quantify this defensive progress? Because it sure as hell isn't in results. I've been hearing about Lorenzo Carter's "flashes" for a fucking year now. Whoopdeedoo. The Giants D was 25th in points and 31st in yards last year. Guess what they are this year? The exact. Same. Fucking. Thing.
I think people have lost the ability to think objectively  
jcn56 : 10/11/2019 10:16 am : link
If we saw the Redskins do the same against the Patriots, what would we be thinking?

- The Redskins might be better than anyone thought

- The Redskins could be improving

- The Thursday Night Football product is shit to begin with, and the weather didn't help

RE: RE: RE: Biggest takeaway from  
Greg from LI : 10/11/2019 10:18 am : link
In comment 14624382 Beezer said:
Quote:
I'm not one to constantly lampoon Shurmur ... but I really think Jones walked in the door prepared.


One of the big pluses for Jones was that, having played for Cutcliffe, he'd be more prepared than most rookie QBs to step in and not be overwhelmed by the NFL because he'd been so well coached, and I think we're seeing that.
Iím more confident in Jones  
ryanmkeane : 10/11/2019 10:20 am : link
after this game as well. He really gets pissed and shows fire out there, and you could see it in the post game press conference that he was really upset that he left plays out there and they had a chance to win. Heís a competitor.
Jones also had some  
ryanmkeane : 10/11/2019 10:21 am : link
really awesome throws in this game. That being said, he had some bad rookie ones as well. Letís see if he can build and hopefully put a couple good games together against Arizona and Detroit.
Not sure how anyone can say the  
Giants in 07 : 10/11/2019 10:21 am : link
defense hasn't improved since weeks 1-3.

You literally had Gallup, Cooper and Evans running downfield with nobody within 15 yards of them


.  
arcarsenal : 10/11/2019 10:22 am : link
Everyone knew from the start of the season that this was a young defense that was going to have growing pains.

Why would anyone be surprised to see them ranking closer to the bottom of the league through 6 games? They weren't going to be fixed in week 1.

They're going to need to improve incrementally. We aren't waking up one day to a defense that is suddenly top 5 with no curve in between. I'm not sure what people were expecting to see last night.
Yeah? OK, so where are even the incremental improvements?  
Greg from LI : 10/11/2019 10:24 am : link
A big play sprinkled in once per game?
RE: Not sure how anyone can say the  
Greg from LI : 10/11/2019 10:24 am : link
In comment 14624408 Giants in 07 said:
Quote:
defense hasn't improved since weeks 1-3.

You literally had Gallup, Cooper and Evans running downfield with nobody within 15 yards of them



So they've gone from unspeakably bad to merely routinely bad. Gotcha.
RE: Yeah? OK, so where are even the incremental improvements?  
Giants in 07 : 10/11/2019 10:27 am : link
In comment 14624415 Greg from LI said:
Quote:
A big play sprinkled in once per game?


Multiple 3rd and 4th down stops - something that has plagued them for years
Actually hitting the QB even if it's not sacks
Collapsing the pocket somewhat
Baker has done a complete 180 since Week 1 and 2


They are progressing.
For the life of me though, I can't understand  
Giants in 07 : 10/11/2019 10:28 am : link
why Ballentine hasn't seen the field.
RE: Yeah? OK, so where are even the incremental improvements?  
arcarsenal : 10/11/2019 10:30 am : link
In comment 14624415 Greg from LI said:
Quote:
A big play sprinkled in once per game?


If you couldn't see any difference between last night and week 1, I'm not sure what to tell ya.

The blown coverages against Dallas and Buffalo were ludicrous. There were guys running around with no one even in view on nearly every drive. I could have completed passes against us in either game.

Even against Tampa, guys were routinely wide open and barely contested.

There's a difference between claiming the defense is good/has arrived, and thinking they're a young unit that is showing some signs of improvement. The latter seems like a fair and rational observation - not sure why all the pushback or hyperbolic responses when no one is saying the defense is suddenly great or anything to write home about.

When your offense can't sustain drives, establish a ground game or stay on the field and your opponent is the Patriots in Foxboro... you're probably going to give up yards.
You didn't see guys routinely open last night?  
Greg from LI : 10/11/2019 10:40 am : link
I did. Maybe not with the same frequency, but it was hardly unusual.

And the Pats aren't exactly loaded with receiving talent at the moment. Edelman's on the downslope, Gordon got hurt, no more Gronk, their 3 and 4 receivers last night were a pair of UDFA rookies, their starting TE was Giants castoff Matt Lacosse.

Not exactly a dangerous group.
.  
arcarsenal : 10/11/2019 10:44 am : link
Nothing like earlier in the season. How many passes did Brady complete to guys who had no one around them? I can think of maybe 2-3 tops.

In Dallas it was happening almost every drive. We had no one near Cole Beasley in Week 2, either. He was getting wide open on 3rd down after 3rd down.

Interesting that the Patriots are awarded the injury excuse when it's not allowed to be used in our case, though...

When people have brought up the absence of Barkley, Shepard and Engram, the response has basically been "well, they'd just have changed their gameplan and scored more points"... but obviously that argument doesn't go both ways here.
You can't think of any reasons why anyone would extend more benefit of  
Greg from LI : 10/11/2019 10:45 am : link
the doubt to the Patriots than the Giants?
Shurmur is getting way too comfortable  
morrison40 : 10/11/2019 10:47 am : link
With cliche driven post loss press conferences, but then thatís all heís ever done for 70% of his HC career...pitiful
Pages: 1 2 3 <<Prev | Show All |  Next>>
Back to the Corner