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Mystified by some of our personnel decisions

AcidTest : 10/11/2019 9:56 am
Am I the only one mystified by some of our personnel decisions?

The OL wasn’t effective, and has been suspect all season. They didn’t open any running lanes. Zeitler should have been inactive. His shoulder is obviously hurt, and it's clearly affecting his play. I would have started Gates. Remmers and Solder also can't handle any kind of edge rush. We should have occasionally helped them by using a sixth OL. I also would have considered benching Remmers, and using Slade and Smith instead.

Hilliman should have been benched for Penny, a better blocker, and Walter, who is hopefully quicker. Repeatedly running Hilliman into the line when it was clearly ineffective was mindless.

K. Smith instead of Ellison. Ellison looks like he can barely move. Smith might have been able to “stretch the seam” a little.

On defense, I would have deactivated Stupar. I also would have benched Bethea and Haley for Love and Ballentine. Haley has been scorched in coverage by every team. Love was a fourth round pick. Ballentine looked great in preseason. Why aren’t they playing?
I can't speak to most of that  
arniefez : 10/11/2019 10:00 am : link
But running 28 into the middle of the line over and over was just sad. Which is pretty much the state of the Giants. They're just a sad franchise at this point. So many people here so excited because they kept the game close. That's just sad.

You're far from the only one  
Jay on the Island : 10/11/2019 10:00 am : link
I said yesterday before the game that Penny and even Walter should get more carries than Hilliman. With it being likely that Barkley returns next weekend I hope Hilliman is released.

As for Love I also agree that he should be getting time over Bethea. Bethea has been an awful signing and he belongs on the bench.

Haley's a really weird player  
jcn56 : 10/11/2019 10:01 am : link
He's Jekyll and Hyde - one play he'll make a really nice play on the ball, and the next he'll have another one of those WTF moments.
Why would you deactivate Nate Stupar?  
M.S. : 10/11/2019 10:02 am : link

Had you gotten your wish, we would have never witnessed an NFL-first: A punt blocker who gets pushed exactly into a position where the punt goes off his helmet.

Come on, now... that's gotta be worth something.
I question Hilliman getting all those carries. I figured maybe  
Blue21 : 10/11/2019 10:05 am : link
Penny got hurt. Also thought they should have tried some different things. There were no reverses. Not sure there were any RPO's. Maybe there was and I just don't recall. And as someone said on the game thread they should just rip the screen pass out of their playbook. It's pathetic. Patriots killed us with theirs. We're lucky to get back to the line of scrimmage. It's been that way for 10 years.
RE: I can't speak to most of that  
gmenatlarge : 10/11/2019 10:06 am : link
In comment 14624329 arniefez said:
Quote:
But running 28 into the middle of the line over and over was just sad. Which is pretty much the state of the Giants. They're just a sad franchise at this point. So many people here so excited because they kept the game close. That's just sad.


While they could have been more creative with the run game you can't abandon it totally against a defense like that or you will get your QB killed.
You might..  
FatMan in Charlotte : 10/11/2019 10:06 am : link
have pointed something out here:

Quote:
Ballentine looked great in preseason

So did Hilliman. Now people are ready to run him out of town.

In fact, weren't several posters upset he was cut but liked that he was on the practice squad?
RE: Haley's a really weird player  
Biteymax22 : 10/11/2019 10:09 am : link
In comment 14624332 jcn56 said:
Quote:
He's Jekyll and Hyde - one play he'll make a really nice play on the ball, and the next he'll have another one of those WTF moments.


He's a good tackler and good around the line of scrimmage, but the second he has to cover, things go south.
RE: You might..  
Zeke's Alibi : 10/11/2019 10:14 am : link
In comment 14624355 FatMan in Charlotte said:
Quote:
have pointed something out here:



Quote:


Ballentine looked great in preseason


So did Hilliman. Now people are ready to run him out of town.

In fact, weren't several posters upset he was cut but liked that he was on the practice squad?


Hilliman was running through big holes in preseason and not adding anything to the play. This guy sucks so hard. Ballentine was showing great coverage albeit 2nd stringers. But there is a difference in their performance.
He doesn't have NFL level burst or agility, he's just not an explosive  
Zeke's Alibi : 10/11/2019 10:16 am : link
athlete at all. If your thing is you are a power back, you still need to be explosive to add force. Remember that guy we drafted in the 4th from BC that was fucking jacked. Reminds me of him, except without the size and strength. There's really no excuse going into an NFL game with him as starting RB.
DG threw the dice thinking they could get through two games giving  
Zeke's Alibi : 10/11/2019 10:19 am : link
Gallman a big workload. He lost hard. Keeping a 3rd QB was a giant mistake when one of those guys is Eli Manning who just doesn't get hurt. And if this team was down to its third QB the season was fucked anyway.
I am still shocked they didn't add a RB after the Barkley  
Jay on the Island : 10/11/2019 10:27 am : link
and Gallman injuries. A vet like CJ Anderson, Ajayi, etc could have gotten up to speed in a few days to at least get a few carries in the game.

Hilliman should never see another touch for the team. You can't have a RB turn the ball over in critical situations especially when they offer nothing as a runner/receiver.
I didn't have a problem  
NoPeanutz : 10/11/2019 10:35 am : link
Hilliman up the middle for 1 or 2 is the best running game you'll get last night. Its a bigger issue that WRs, including Tate, can't get separation so that we are able to convert on 3rd and 5 or 6.
Defense was awesome last night. The guys who played did so well enough to win and then some.

Stupar- Not sure what he adds. I don't know why the coach is doing this to himself.
To be fair to the OL -  
ZogZerg : 10/11/2019 10:36 am : link
There were running lanes. Hillman SUCKS as a RB. He didn't see any of them. Blind squirrel would have done better...
Hilliman has shown enough..  
morrison40 : 10/11/2019 10:37 am : link
To get released. Move along, nothing to see here.
LOL!  
mdthedream : 10/11/2019 10:38 am : link
The RBs are street players. The line was fine we lacked skill players at Wr,RB and TE.
RE: RE: Haley's a really weird player  
Greg from LI : 10/11/2019 10:41 am : link
In comment 14624365 Biteymax22 said:
Quote:
He's a good tackler and good around the line of scrimmage, but the second he has to cover, things go south.


Exactly right. I appreciate his tackling, but he couldn't cover a parked car.
RE: I question Hilliman getting all those carries. I figured maybe  
Coach Red Beaulieu : 10/11/2019 10:47 am : link
In comment 14624349 Blue21 said:
Quote:
Penny got hurt. Also thought they should have tried some different things. There were no reverses. Not sure there were any RPO's. Maybe there was and I just don't recall. And as someone said on the game thread they should just rip the screen pass out of their playbook. It's pathetic. Patriots killed us with theirs. We're lucky to get back to the line of scrimmage. It's been that way for 10 years.

A screen pass to Penny is moronic. We should see Slayton on a jet sweep. Frigging unagile system weenie Shemur.

RPOs weren't there because NE was not going to bite on a run to Hilliman and largely playing prevent Tampa 2 soft Cover2.
Yeah  
Gman11 : 10/11/2019 10:53 am : link
Smith, Penny and Walter would have made a big difference.

Why you're not an NFL head coach is amazing.
What I want to know is  
gapofstrahan : 10/11/2019 11:15 am : link
why didn't the Giants contact Orleans Darkwa when Gallman and Barkley went down? Guy clearly wanted to play and could easily have been brought up to speed.
agree  
broadbandz : 10/11/2019 11:21 am : link
great post. Smith and the Walter guy could have a little of speed which would have made some difference. Bethea should have been benched after the Dallas game. Coaching decisions on who plays just looks worse and worse for ole' Punt on 4th and 2 Shurmur.
Hiliman  
Marty866b : 10/11/2019 11:35 am : link
How could he have been the best running back available? Terrible job by the GM.
RE: Hiliman  
Greg from LI : 10/11/2019 11:35 am : link
In comment 14624622 Marty866b said:
Quote:
How could he have been the best running back available? Terrible job by the GM.


Answer: he's not
Penny and Hilliman are both JAGs  
Vanzetti : 10/11/2019 12:10 pm : link
If they were cut, neither one would likely be on another NFL roster.

Arguing about which JAG should get more snaps is drinking the koolaid.
Summarizing all of the above commentary...  
NYRiese : 10/11/2019 12:37 pm : link
Shurmur is merely solidifying his reputation as a losing head coach.
To be fair, they didn't have Tanney.  
Mad Mike : 10/11/2019 12:42 pm : link
He's really great in the room, and you're kidding yourself if you don't think that carries over into the field of play. Personnel decisions look a lot better when guys are playing with that Tanney fire in their belly.
Haley, Halapio, Bethea, Hilliman, Stupar, Pierre  
Torrag : 10/11/2019 12:46 pm : link
Five incredibly stupid personnel decisions they seem unwilling or incapable of adjusting to based on the results and coaching tapes. Unforgivably stubborn and stupid.
RE: You're far from the only one  
81_Great_Dane : 10/11/2019 12:52 pm : link
In comment 14624330 Jay on the Island said:
Quote:
I said yesterday before the game that Penny and even Walter should get more carries than Hilliman. With it being likely that Barkley returns next weekend I hope Hilliman is released.

As for Love I also agree that he should be getting time over Bethea. Bethea has been an awful signing and he belongs on the bench.
Hilliman may belong on the practice squad, but he's not ready for NFL action. RBs usually don't need development time, though. For the most part, they can either play or they can't. So he may well have played himself out of the organization.
Possibly without barkely they don't have an rb  
idiotsavant : 10/11/2019 12:56 pm : link
That they trust to get to the edge, which really could cut down a playbook especially with regards to your OTs ability to tee off on people.

Maybe the practice squad one.
All teams have to paste in jags  
idiotsavant : 10/11/2019 1:01 pm : link
From time to time. I think we see lots of O line improvement when barkely gets back.

But your #3 rb is a mid round need sadly.

As for the bottom of the D roster , it's the almost all D draft maybe ...do..

RE: Yeah  
Big_N : 10/12/2019 3:40 pm : link
In comment 14624493 Gman11 said:
Quote:
Smith, Penny and Walter would have made a big difference.

Why you're not an NFL head coach is amazing.


Running with your fullback? Maybe once in awhile but ..... geez it that is your answer to this current RB situation? This is really so typical of the Giants front office to just get rid of players but never bother to replace them with decent talent...Collins ; Odell , Perkins I can go and on
Hilliman never looked great !  
Bluesbreaker : 10/12/2019 4:43 pm : link
The moment Barkley was hurt there should have been a
vet signing . A healthy Gallman is never a threat to break
any big plays as well . He does get nicked up .
236 touches four plays 20 plus yards longest 24 yards .
might be the worst backup RB in the NFL.
Bethea old man in the sea is our leading tackler 20 yards
down the field . Why not put Peppers back there and
Put whomever at SS . Maybe Buckannon con't even get me started on Stupar questionable personal decisions ..
RE: RE: RE: Haley's a really weird player  
Hades07 : 10/12/2019 11:46 pm : link
In comment 14624458 Greg from LI said:
Quote:
In comment 14624365 Biteymax22 said:


Quote:


He's a good tackler and good around the line of scrimmage, but the second he has to cover, things go south.



Exactly right. I appreciate his tackling, but he couldn't cover a parked car.
To be fair, he is quite a bit smaller than a car.
RE: Hilliman never looked great !  
Hades07 : 10/12/2019 11:48 pm : link
In comment 14625895 Bluesbreaker said:
Quote:
The moment Barkley was hurt there should have been a
vet signing . A healthy Gallman is never a threat to break
any big plays as well . He does get nicked up .
236 touches four plays 20 plus yards longest 24 yards .
might be the worst backup RB in the NFL.
Bethea old man in the sea is our leading tackler 20 yards
down the field . Why not put Peppers back there and
Put whomever at SS . Maybe Buckannon con't even get me started on Stupar questionable personal decisions ..
I think the Explosive Veteran RB Not Currently on a Roster store was closed for renovations the past few weeks.
Remmers was the RT for Carolina  
bradshaw44 : 10/13/2019 7:50 am : link
That got abused in the super bowl against Denver. I was less then thrilled when they signed him.
RE: You might..  
EricJ : 10/13/2019 7:59 am : link
In comment 14624355 FatMan in Charlotte said:
Quote:


In fact, weren't several posters upset he was cut but liked that he was on the practice squad?


Probably Rutgers fans...
Mystified?  
Jimmy Googs : 10/13/2019 8:14 am : link
A bit dramatic. I am a bit mystified that you think the roster is all that good or deep enough to make up for what you believe are mystifying personnel decisions.

The team is banged up right now, and even when not they aren't all that good. Giants will win a few more games this year but that's about it.

Some of the younger guys are showing some good stuff and some of the other players and vets are showing that they need to move on.

Roster building will continue...



RE: Summarizing all of the above commentary...  
Gatorade Dunk : 10/13/2019 9:54 am : link
In comment 14624750 NYRiese said:
Quote:
Shurmur is merely solidifying his reputation as a losing head coach.

He's got his flaws, for sure, but it's unfortunate that he's been saddled with the Browns and now Dave "Dead Money" Gettleman.

Not favorable conditions for any coach.
AcidTest, presuming that any of Gates, Smith and Slade are capable  
yatqb : 10/13/2019 10:09 am : link
is a huge leap of faith. We don’t have a good or deep roster. DG needs time to fix that.

And I hate the blame game some on BBI engage in. When Shurmur has a decent roster we’ll see whether he’s capable of not. But all the BBI couch potatoes think that they have insights he doesn’t. Somehow I find that a bit egotistical.
'Dave "Dead Money" Gettleman'  
Torrag : 10/13/2019 12:03 pm : link
Next year our 'dead money' drops to about 500K. When you come in, clean house and flip a roster dead money can accumulate short term.

Unless DG plans on jettisoning Shurmur and making him a scapegoat(which imo is highly unlikely) your post while 'factual' doesn't paint an accurate picture of the GM or the managements teams vision for this roster long term imo.
RE: 'Dave  
Gatorade Dunk : 10/13/2019 12:20 pm : link
In comment 14626500 Torrag said:
Quote:
Next year our 'dead money' drops to about 500K. When you come in, clean house and flip a roster dead money can accumulate short term.

Unless DG plans on jettisoning Shurmur and making him a scapegoat(which imo is highly unlikely) your post while 'factual' doesn't paint an accurate picture of the GM or the managements teams vision for this roster long term imo.

If you think we'll only have $500K in dead money next year, I have a bridge to sell you. The only reason why we only have that amount on the books for next year is because we simply haven't started ringing up new charges on that freshly paid off credit card just yet.

The way that Abrams structures contracts combined with Gettleman's less than stellar record in free agency will perpetually keep this team from being top quartile in cap efficiency.

I'll believe otherwise when I see it for myself. Anyone who puts faith in Gettleman and Abrams to all of a sudden turn the cap from a major disadvantage into anything but a neutral factor is doing so purely out of wishful thinking, IMO.

Gettleman needs to get a lot better (and more consistently so) at free agency and Abrams needs to stop structuring contracts designed specifically with a premature ripcord in mind, and then maybe we'll stop ringing up the dead money. Like I said, I'll believe it when I see it.
'I have a bridge to sell you'  
Torrag : 10/13/2019 12:39 pm : link
I don't think you understand how 'dead money' works. Maybe you do but unless we start cutting players with committed guaranteed money you don't acrue it.

For example if the Giants were to cut Ogletree, Jenkins and Ellison after this season our 'dead money' for 2020 would be about $10M. Nowhere near the $36M we incurred with the rebuild. I also doubt this happens but you never know.
You do understand that dead money is a one time cap hit...  
Torrag : 10/13/2019 12:44 pm : link
...against a team for the remaining guaranteed money owed a player upon their release. It's an annual reset button and the amount in any given year is dependent on that years cuts alone.
BTW if I'm wrong someone please correct me because...  
Torrag : 10/13/2019 12:47 pm : link
...I believe I have a handle on the concept and it definitely influences my view of the job our FO is doing. I understand the need to flip the roster and reboot your program when there is a change and suffer some tough times on the field and with contracts. Short term.
RE: You do understand that dead money is a one time cap hit...  
Gatorade Dunk : 10/13/2019 2:18 pm : link
In comment 14626533 Torrag said:
Quote:
...against a team for the remaining guaranteed money owed a player upon their release. It's an annual reset button and the amount in any given year is dependent on that years cuts alone.

Dead money can be spread over two years, depending on the timing of the release/trade. And yes, I understand exactly how its accrued, which is why it's silly when people point out that we *only* have $500K in dead money for next season. Of course that's all we have... now.

But the way Abrams structures contracts combined with the mediocre track record for Gettleman in free agency (along with his willingness to cut bait quickly on his signings when they don't work out) suggest to me that dead money will continue to be a hinderance for this franchise.

The fact that they restructured Solder in the manner that they did, which borrowed cap space from 2020 and 2021 just to free up some space for in-season operations this year (when the dead money handcuffs this year were already self-imposed) makes me concerned that as a general rule they're too willing to borrow from tomorrow for cap space today.

This is not an otherwise sound cap management front office that has simply weathered the storm of roster turnover; they're middling at best when it comes to the cap and the roster turnover has merely cast a light on some of their suboptimal tendencies (a roster bonus, workout bonus and partially guaranteed salary for Tanney, for example, was simply asking for potential dead money for a player that had no leverage to begin with and by definition was always going to be a candidate for churn at the bottom of the roster).
'Of course that's all we have... now.'  
Torrag : 10/13/2019 2:39 pm : link
I already outlined the players contracts that could be in jeopardy for next season. Even if all the primary contracts in 'jeopardy' are in fact cuts the dead money will be reduced by over 66% next season at minimum. You refuse to consider the roster turn over incurred in a rebuild or that DG in fact signed very few of those players. He was fiscally responsible for less than 20% of this years 'dead money'.

Frankly after reading your arguments over multiple posts on this subject I'm inclined to put you in the 'Chicken Little' category. Plenty of bluster and hyperbole but scant substance. The sky is falling, the sky is falling but the current numbers don't support your position.

We can revisit when next seasons roster takes shape but I for one am confident the dead money will be drastically reduced and we'll be in position to delve deeply into the markets to bolster our talent level.
The fact that they waited  
MtDizzle : 10/13/2019 6:15 pm : link
until Friday to bring in a competent RB is alarming. Not to mention Stupar and Tanney literally killing two roster spots.
RE: 'Of course that's all we have... now.'  
Gatorade Dunk : 10/14/2019 6:30 am : link
In comment 14626632 Torrag said:
Quote:
I already outlined the players contracts that could be in jeopardy for next season. Even if all the primary contracts in 'jeopardy' are in fact cuts the dead money will be reduced by over 66% next season at minimum. You refuse to consider the roster turn over incurred in a rebuild or that DG in fact signed very few of those players. He was fiscally responsible for less than 20% of this years 'dead money'.

Frankly after reading your arguments over multiple posts on this subject I'm inclined to put you in the 'Chicken Little' category. Plenty of bluster and hyperbole but scant substance. The sky is falling, the sky is falling but the current numbers don't support your position.

We can revisit when next seasons roster takes shape but I for one am confident the dead money will be drastically reduced and we'll be in position to delve deeply into the markets to bolster our talent level.

Not sure where you're getting your numbers but more than half of the dead money this year was accrued via contracts that Gettleman handed out, not Reese.

The numbers absolutely support my position. Your fiction just doesn't.
Did you read Sy's report on the Patriots' game?  
Bramton1 : 10/14/2019 6:57 am : link
There were cutback running lanes. Hilliman just isn't talented enough to see them.
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