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Time to lay off Shumur

Alan in Toledo : 10/11/2019 1:16 pm
The team, last year and this, consistently plays hard for him while continuing to improve.

What's not to like?
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Needs to do  
Coach Red Beaulieu : 10/11/2019 3:30 pm : link
In Poker terms he's a rock, an easy mark and read.
OC yes, HC no  
Bruner4329 : 10/11/2019 3:38 pm : link
I would be perfectly fine with him as the OC but we need a better HC. And for the life of me still trying to understand logic of going to a 3-4 defense when this organization has not drafted a legitimate LB since Jesse Armstrong and can also be listed as having the worst LB group in the league the last 5 years.
RE: He sucks as a HC  
Bluesbreaker : 10/11/2019 3:46 pm : link
In comment 14624860 JonC said:
Quote:
.


He is a good OC in the right situation and yes we should
be looking for his replacement . I have no idea who that
might be othere people here may know a younger up and
coming guy but I prefer a former head coach .
Who is the best guy suited to replace Shurmur .
Pats were arrogant assholes last night and BB had no problem
going for it on 4th down .they had zero respect for us and
they have never got over the two losses to us and
it shows after the Golden TD that was a marvelous effort
to score they were shocked it was a punch in the gut
As undermanned as we were I say we beat them when our
guys are back .
RE: Didn't..  
Go Terps : 10/11/2019 3:47 pm : link
In comment 14625023 FatMan in Charlotte said:
Quote:
people say Bettcher is in over his head?? A few people are calling this a terrible, dysfunctioanal D

Yet we would advocate promoting him to HC?


No, we're advocating firing Shurmur. Someone asked who should take over.

But a sea change is needed in how this team is run. Waiting until the end of the season, or God forbid the end of 2020, is wasting more time.
everyone saying give him a longer leash because  
Platos : 10/11/2019 3:49 pm : link
we didn't get rid of eli earlier and we didn't do this or that in FA need to stop.

the fact is if you don't make the right calls when the games out of reach and doesn't matter, how do we know you can when the game is within a score and we need to manage time outs, call the right plays, or take the right chances?

he uses time outs like its going out of style. his decisions to go for it on 4th have no rhyme or reason. he also makes questionable play calls which i'll lay off him on the play calling because a lot of that could be on execution but he needs to adjust!
I didn't want Shurmur here to begin with...  
bw in dc : 10/11/2019 3:57 pm : link
but feel I need to defend a guy here.

He's really shouldering way too much blame here. I believe the majority of NFL games are won before they are played. You need talent to win these games. And right now we just don't have enough of it to consistently compete and win. That's Gettleman's job.

Layer on the injuries to key offensive pieces, plus a rookie QB who is dealing with the ups and downs of the rookie cycle, than nothing about these results should be surprising.

If you think these real time questionable decisions by Shurmur are unique to him, I suggest you watch more games because it's sort of an epidemic around the league. From Pete Carroll to Mike Tomlin to Andy Reid to Ron Rivera to etc, there are questionable decisions being made every single game.




Go Terps are you suggesting we bring in a consultant group  
JoeFootball : 10/11/2019 4:07 pm : link
to reorganize and fill the Giants organization?
I was about to agree with the OP  
.McL. : 10/11/2019 5:05 pm : link
I thought when he said "Lay Off" that he meant as in getting laid off from his job!!!

But alas, that is not what he meant... Oh well...
What about  
NikkiMac : 10/11/2019 5:08 pm : link
Rex Ryan about time the Gmen go back to defensive coach
RE: RE: He sucks as a HC  
Les in TO : 10/11/2019 5:21 pm : link
In comment 14625095 Bluesbreaker said:
Quote:
In comment 14624860 JonC said:


Quote:


.



He is a good OC in the right situation and yes we should
be looking for his replacement . I have no idea who that
might be othere people here may know a younger up and
coming guy but I prefer a former head coach .
Who is the best guy suited to replace Shurmur .
Pats were arrogant assholes last night and BB had no problem
going for it on 4th down .they had zero respect for us and
they have never got over the two losses to us and
it shows after the Golden TD that was a marvelous effort
to score they were shocked it was a punch in the gut
As undermanned as we were I say we beat them when our
guys are back .
The Pats went for it on 4th down because of the wind and Nugent.
I'd feel a lot better about Shurmur  
santacruzom : 10/11/2019 5:38 pm : link
if there was any reason to believe that he is capable of improving upon his shortcomings, or even merely recognizing that he has them.

I don't see any signs that he can or does.
RE: Go Terps are you suggesting we bring in a consultant group  
Go Terps : 10/11/2019 5:40 pm : link
In comment 14625125 JoeFootball said:
Quote:
to reorganize and fill the Giants organization?


I've been suggesting that for a couple years.
RE: RE: RE: Shurmur is a poor man's Jim Fassel  
MookGiants : 10/11/2019 5:41 pm : link
In comment 14625030 V.I.G. said:
Quote:
In comment 14625005 MookGiants said:


Quote:


In comment 14624919 Larry in Pencilvania said:


Quote:


He'll never win anything, make head scratching decisions, will get ahead if he has superior assistants and because he's a nice guy players will play hard for him.

This team had gone through this already before they hired Coughlin. Not only does this team need a continued infusion in talent, but a real kick in the ass in the coaching department is required



Fassel won 14 games in 2000.

Shurmur has won what, 17 games total in 4 years as a coach.

The guy is a total loser. He couldnt wipe Jim Fassels ass on his best day.

He has to be one of the worst coaches that ever had more than one HC job in the history of the sport.


there it is - the dumbest thought of the week, maybe the year. How can you compare that giants 2000 roster to this season's with all the new faces, rookies, and injuries. Fassel was the definition of a guy that got his team to play down to the competition. Shurmur IMO has been the opposite.


Yeah, Shurmur, the guy who has one of the 10 worst records in NFL history as a head coach, is comparable to Jim Fassel.

Fassel had plenty of faults. But he was light years better as a head coach than Pat Shurmur.

Fassel went to the playoffs 3 times. Had a 58-53-1 record as a HC. Pat Shurmur has never even sniffed the playoffs as a head coach. Hell, he's never even sniffed a meaningful december as a head coach.

That 1997 team had ridiculous talent everywhere in Fassel's first year.

Pat Shurmur is a loser. He's never done a damn fucking thing as a head coach. The only thing he does well as a head coach is lose at a rate rarely seen in the history of the sport.

He was a loser when they hired him and nothing has changed. Pat Shurmur's name belongs no where near Jim Fassel's name.

Pat Shurmurs name belongs with Hue Jacksons, Steve Spagnuolo, Gus Bradley. None of those other guys is ever getting a 2nd head coaching job.

He's a decent offensive coordinator. Nothing else.
I'm not as down on him as many.  
Sneakers O'toole : 10/11/2019 5:42 pm : link
I tend to agree with the OP.
Calling for his head is premature  
Sneakers O'toole : 10/11/2019 5:42 pm : link
.
I'm still "jury out" on Shurmur,  
PatersonPlank : 10/11/2019 5:44 pm : link
however I don't think last nights game was the game to make any decisions based on. We were missing our 3 best offensive weapons, our backup RB, and a LB or two. No one coaching the Giants was winning last night.

Lets see what happens in the next couple of games. We have a chance to win every one.
RE: RE: He deserves a better roster  
santacruzom : 10/11/2019 5:46 pm : link
In comment 14624966 Zeke's Alibi said:
Quote:

Big test coming up with Saquon coming back against a weak defense.


At this point though, any assumption that he'll actually utilize Barkley effectively, aggressively, and consistently is based on nothing but faith.
jury out?  
MookGiants : 10/11/2019 5:47 pm : link
How much more do you need to see him lose? That's all he does as a head coach. He loses 7 of every 10 games.

Go Terps is there a NFL football specific consultant  
JoeFootball : 10/11/2019 6:00 pm : link
group that teams use. Serious question, every head coach search I've heard of is a group of former players or employees that the owners trust that come back with a short list. Who's used one successful?
RE: RE: RE: RE: Shurmur is a poor man's Jim Fassel  
V.I.G. : 10/11/2019 6:02 pm : link
In comment 14625279 MookGiants said:
Quote:

He was a loser when they hired him and nothing has changed. Pat Shurmur's name belongs no where near Jim Fassel's name.


Mook - I'll play along but please address my point.

Has Shurmur had ONE roster as talented as Fassel's least talented roster? I'll save you the time. The answer is NO.

So then please explain how an underachieving Fassel who hasn't sniffed another HC gig besides the XFL is such a better HC. Yet Shurmur has had shit to work with but that's all on him? I mean, come on...
RE: jury out?  
V.I.G. : 10/11/2019 6:05 pm : link
In comment 14625289 MookGiants said:
Quote:
How much more do you need to see him lose? That's all he does as a head coach. He loses 7 of every 10 games.

you think he bats .300 if he coached the Rams?

He's had some of the worst rosters in the history of the NFL.

So no. Jury is still in deliberation until gettlemen can put something resembling a winning roster on the field.
Setting aside the punt issue  
Sneakers O'toole : 10/11/2019 6:07 pm : link
I'm curious what they should have done differently on offense. An offense totally outmatched.

I see criticism of going up tempo. It was obviously an attempt to mitigate just how badly matchef up we were. Strange criticism.
You can throw out his Browns record.  
Sneakers O'toole : 10/11/2019 6:09 pm : link
Nobody has done shit there. It's been a shitshow of an organization since it's rebirth.

Nobody coaching their way put of that.
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: Shurmur is a poor man's Jim Fassel  
santacruzom : 10/11/2019 6:19 pm : link
In comment 14625307 V.I.G. said:
Quote:
In comment 14625279 MookGiants said:


Quote:



He was a loser when they hired him and nothing has changed. Pat Shurmur's name belongs no where near Jim Fassel's name.




Mook - I'll play along but please address my point.

Has Shurmur had ONE roster as talented as Fassel's least tale


I think so. 1997 and 1998 weren't terribly talented. Don't be fooled by some of the names on those rosters -- they were not yet playing at the level they eventually achieved.
...  
christian : 10/11/2019 6:35 pm : link
Who are all the untalented players on the roster?

I understand there are a bunch of guys banged up right now. But really who are all these scrubs on the team?

The only regular players who aren't well paid or acquired through high pricks/trades are; Halopio, Latimer, Davis, Haley, and Bethea.

Every other frontline player on this team was a 3rd round pick or higher, or acquired in a trade or UFA.
The Patriots at no point had to respect the running game  
Sneakers O'toole : 10/11/2019 6:42 pm : link
Tate was the biggest threat to them, amd an emerging Slayton. The Pats feast on this sort of thing.
Quite frankly  
Sneakers O'toole : 10/11/2019 6:44 pm : link
We fared better than I hoped for 3 quarters.
RE: He sucks as a HC  
jvm52106 : 10/11/2019 6:45 pm : link
In comment 14624860 JonC said:
Quote:
.


Thank you.. Everything he does screams of average and below average. The poor use of Barkley, the lack of feel for when to throttle up and when to slow it down, the challenges that always appear like he was emotionally driven to it and after failing with the challenge he seems like it was a desperation attempt, poor use of clock, time outs and calling plays for players clearly not suited for it- Eli roll-out on 4th and 2, Hilliman on, well pretty much any play, short yardage plays to Hilliman when Penny was the size power choice etc. and his lack of guts on when to go for it and when not to..
RE: RE: RE: RE: Shurmur is a poor man's Jim Fassel  
WillVAB : 10/11/2019 6:56 pm : link
In comment 14625279 MookGiants said:
Quote:
In comment 14625030 V.I.G. said:


Quote:


In comment 14625005 MookGiants said:


Quote:


In comment 14624919 Larry in Pencilvania said:


Quote:


He'll never win anything, make head scratching decisions, will get ahead if he has superior assistants and because he's a nice guy players will play hard for him.

This team had gone through this already before they hired Coughlin. Not only does this team need a continued infusion in talent, but a real kick in the ass in the coaching department is required



Fassel won 14 games in 2000.

Shurmur has won what, 17 games total in 4 years as a coach.

The guy is a total loser. He couldnt wipe Jim Fassels ass on his best day.

He has to be one of the worst coaches that ever had more than one HC job in the history of the sport.


there it is - the dumbest thought of the week, maybe the year. How can you compare that giants 2000 roster to this season's with all the new faces, rookies, and injuries. Fassel was the definition of a guy that got his team to play down to the competition. Shurmur IMO has been the opposite.



Yeah, Shurmur, the guy who has one of the 10 worst records in NFL history as a head coach, is comparable to Jim Fassel.

Fassel had plenty of faults. But he was light years better as a head coach than Pat Shurmur.

Fassel went to the playoffs 3 times. Had a 58-53-1 record as a HC. Pat Shurmur has never even sniffed the playoffs as a head coach. Hell, he's never even sniffed a meaningful december as a head coach.

That 1997 team had ridiculous talent everywhere in Fassel's first year.

Pat Shurmur is a loser. He's never done a damn fucking thing as a head coach. The only thing he does well as a head coach is lose at a rate rarely seen in the history of the sport.

He was a loser when they hired him and nothing has changed. Pat Shurmur's name belongs no where near Jim Fassel's name.

Pat Shurmurs name belongs with Hue Jacksons, Steve Spagnuolo, Gus Bradley. None of those other guys is ever getting a 2nd head coaching job.

He's a decent offensive coordinator. Nothing else.


Iím not a Shurmur fan at all but stacking resumes vs Fassel isnít really fair. Fassel had talent to work with and had two awesome coordinators in Payton and Fox.
I always preach that coaches need talent to win with  
Ten Ton Hammer : 10/11/2019 7:09 pm : link
But there's really nothing there to hang your hat on that Shurmur knows what to do to turn this team into a winning unit. The defense is atrocious, this is his chosen Defensive Coordinator. His in-game is nothing to write home about. And he seems to like excuses.
I have said this recently on other threads  
.McL. : 10/11/2019 7:51 pm : link
The team too often does not seem to know what to do, they don't understand their assignments, and are in general ill-prepared.

now I would like to add on top of that. I don't see much in the way of game planning. The Giants do what they do... I don't see them trying to do different things to take advantage of the opposition weaknesses. And there doesn't seem to be any in game adjustments.

Yeah, players are young, there are lots of rookies, and rookies make mistakes. But they should know the system. They should be mistakes of judgement, taking a bad angle, pinching the edge too aggressively and allowing somebody to outside, not using their leverage and where they have help properly, misreads and the like. I am talking about the things that just come with experience. They shouldn't simply be lost out there. We see too guys lost out there too much. We see to many miscommunications in coverage, or on the OL.

These are all issues with this coaching staff, and how they are handling and preparing this team. It has almost nothing to do with talent.

While there are most definitely talent issue with the Giants, the vast majority of failures are not due to being physically inferior, its due to coachable things.

Lay-off ? As in give him a pink slip?  
Ivan15 : 10/11/2019 9:33 pm : link
.
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: Shurmur is a poor man's Jim Fassel  
V.I.G. : 10/11/2019 9:58 pm : link
In comment 14625318 santacruzom said:
Quote:
In comment 14625307 V.I.G. said:


Quote:


In comment 14625279 MookGiants said:


Quote:



He was a loser when they hired him and nothing has changed. Pat Shurmur's name belongs no where near Jim Fassel's name.




Mook - I'll play along but please address my point.

Has Shurmur had ONE roster as talented as Fassel's least tale



I think so. 1997 and 1998 weren't terribly talented. Don't be fooled by some of the names on those rosters -- they were not yet playing at the level they eventually achieved.

what???? those defenses were nasty with fox
97/98 strahan armstead and sehorn were pro bowlers IIRC and hamilton was a BAMF

charles way the best FB in giants history? dont you dare throw shade on boy charles way
Shurmur deserves high praise for sitting Eli and playing DJ  
GeofromNJ : 10/11/2019 10:56 pm : link
I grant you his play calling at times is not top shelf (attempting to run out of the end zone when the ball's on your own 2 yard line), but I think we have to give Shurmur a few more games to see how well DJ comes along in terms of recognizing coverages. Supposedly Shurmur's forte is schooling QBs, so I'm willing to wait for improvement in DJ before saying Shurmur has to go.
I actually think Shurmur has been ok  
TD : 10/12/2019 2:02 am : link
Heís had a couple of questionable play calls each game but overall the O (which is his baby) has looked functional. It helps to have an upgrade at QB. But I think when we get some talent back and add proper talent in the offseason, this will be a top-10 O.

The D is another story. Iím holding off judgement on Betcher but aside from some spirited play here and there, that unit looks bad. Thereís some talent upfront but hard to tell if the general lack of talent across the back 8 is the sole reason they suck.
RE: Shurmur deserves high praise for sitting Eli and playing DJ  
Big_N : 10/12/2019 6:18 am : link
In comment 14625488 GeofromNJ said:
Quote:
I grant you his play calling at times is not top shelf (attempting to run out of the end zone when the ball's on your own 2 yard line), but I think we have to give Shurmur a few more games to see how well DJ comes along in terms of recognizing coverages. Supposedly Shurmur's forte is schooling QBs, so I'm willing to wait for improvement in DJ before saying Shurmur has to go.


what was wrong with running out of your end zone on first down. Pretty much everyone does it. I don't know about calling a trap there. I will say maybe get a little creative since your so out matched. But is he really outmatched ... they have a decent receiver corp if you include ingram and a great running back.

If you are giving credit to Shurm for benching Eli then why not Mcadoo for starting Geno Smith? I can't believe after losing like what 5 games should been 6 really except tb missed a chip shot and winning one game; one freakin game against the lowly Redskins without Eli; this whole thing this guy gets credit. Eli is not even top4 things wrong with the team.
RE: RE: He sucks as a HC  
TyreeHelmet : 10/12/2019 7:02 am : link
In comment 14625336 jvm52106 said:
Quote:
In comment 14624860 JonC said:


Quote:


.



Thank you.. Everything he does screams of average and below average. The poor use of Barkley, the lack of feel for when to throttle up and when to slow it down, the challenges that always appear like he was emotionally driven to it and after failing with the challenge he seems like it was a desperation attempt, poor use of clock, time outs and calling plays for players clearly not suited for it- Eli roll-out on 4th and 2, Hilliman on, well pretty much any play, short yardage plays to Hilliman when Penny was the size power choice etc. and his lack of guts on when to go for it and when not to..


Well said. I have no idea how someone can watch this guy and think heís a good coach.

Iíll ask again- what does he do well? What are his strengths?
As we celebrated Daniel Jones starting debut & win,  
TheMick7 : 10/12/2019 7:19 am : link
Shurmur's horrible clock management got overlooked in the euphoria of the win vs the Bucs! His 2 timeouts w/over 3 minutes left in the game were neither needed or smart.Ultimately,calling those gave the Bucs a little over a minute to drive down the field (which they did!) & kick a FG. If Gay doesn't miss the 34 yarder,the Giant fanbase would have been calling for his head after that game! Perhaps,if he wasn't playing OC on the sidelines (We actually do have one in Shula,but he's kinda like being Vice President of the US) he'd function better as an HC!!!
RE: Shurmur deserves high praise for sitting Eli and playing DJ  
Lines of Scrimmage : 10/12/2019 8:16 am : link
In comment 14625488 GeofromNJ said:
Quote:
I grant you his play calling at times is not top shelf (attempting to run out of the end zone when the ball's on your own 2 yard line), but I think we have to give Shurmur a few more games to see how well DJ comes along in terms of recognizing coverages. Supposedly Shurmur's forte is schooling QBs, so I'm willing to wait for improvement in DJ before saying Shurmur has to go.


Sure, he stays the rest of the season. Let's see if things improve.

Seems there is division among BBI regarding his future.

IMO he needs to win some division games this year other than Washington. I think it would be a major setback going into next year because he "deserves" a third year.

The other thing that I find a little perplexing is the thought he has no talent to work with. Young is spots but there is talent here.
.  
CalZone : 10/12/2019 9:46 am : link
Shurmur is the new whipping boy after Eli.
And then after Shurmur, it will go to the QB, and then after the QB, it will go to whoever the new coach is. 😁


I wonder what year it will be, if ever, where a general human being will be able to consistently see things from 10 steps back.
RE: As we celebrated Daniel Jones starting debut & win,  
Les in TO : 10/12/2019 9:46 am : link
In comment 14625542 TheMick7 said:
Quote:
Shurmur's horrible clock management got overlooked in the euphoria of the win vs the Bucs! His 2 timeouts w/over 3 minutes left in the game were neither needed or smart.Ultimately,calling those gave the Bucs a little over a minute to drive down the field (which they did!) & kick a FG. If Gay doesn't miss the 34 yarder,the Giant fanbase would have been calling for his head after that game! Perhaps,if he wasn't playing OC on the sidelines (We actually do have one in Shula,but he's kinda like being Vice President of the US) he'd function better as an HC!!!
heís a poor game/clock manager.
RE: It's the same damn argument as the QB argument  
upnyg : 10/12/2019 11:23 am : link
In comment 14625035 USAF NYG Fan said:
Quote:
Let's say they take the advice of many of the "Fire Shurmur OMG he sucks" crowd.....

WHO ARE YOU GOING TO REPLACE HIM WITH????

We get complaining by the same posters without presenting ANY alternative much less a viable one. Just proves it's bitching for the sake of bitching.

Seriously, it's the same damn argument. So many people were saying bench Eli. Really? For who? Spend a draft pick on a maybe and not wait for someone they really want/like? They throw a dart at the board approach? They should have drafted Darnold instead of Barkley? Really? They should not have taken the RotY and waited to get quite possibly the next RotY?

Wait and see? Shurmur and Gettleman have only taken the reins but for a minute. Let them build it before you tear it down without so much as a blueprint for how to do it better.

Agreed!
RE: ...  
Rafflee : 10/12/2019 2:47 pm : link
In comment 14625328 christian said:
Quote:
Who are all the untalented players on the roster?

I understand there are a bunch of guys banged up right now. But really who are all these scrubs on the team?

The only regular players who aren't well paid or acquired through high pricks/trades are; Halopio, Latimer, Davis, Haley, and Bethea.

Every other frontline player on this team was a 3rd round pick or higher, or acquired in a trade or UFA.


The Game is played with more than 22 Players...the front line talent is lacking at several spots, some of it talent and some of it experience. There's not enough depth...it's a roster in develpment/

My biggest problem is The Punt... That's about Attitude and outlook of the coach. Morrone disqualified himself with a cowardly 2nd half in a playoff game against the Pats, attempting to "sit on the ball" for a Half. You can't "Remove or improve that". Shurmur's Punt is similar--- it makes you ask whether He has The Balls to take the needed risks in a Big Game.

He hasn't had a Roster to Judge him on, but that Kick was very revealing.... If that's HIM, He's not up to the Job.
This article is a perfect illustration of backwards thinking  
Go Terps : 10/12/2019 3:00 pm : link
The notion that a head coach is brought in to develop a quarterback is completely misguided. And to simply give Shurmur an opportunity in 2020 after two years of total incompetence on display... Pathetic.
Oh here's the article  
Go Terps : 10/12/2019 3:00 pm : link
.
Link - ( New Window )
RE: You can throw out his Browns record.  
HomerJones45 : 10/12/2019 3:25 pm : link
In comment 14625315 Sneakers O'toole said:
Quote:
Nobody has done shit there. It's been a shitshow of an organization since it's rebirth.

Nobody coaching their way put of that.
No, you can't throw it out. He did nothing to help there, and predictably, he's done nothing to help here. Other than have a vet revolt which led us to get rid of many of the players who had led the team the last time it made the playoffs. He's one of these guys that never seems to have any players. I have no idea why we hired him in the first place.
The Browns needed a culture shift  
Go Terps : 10/12/2019 4:01 pm : link
Shurmur failed to provide it. The Giants need a culture shift. Why would we expect Shurmur to provide it?
Who has?  
Sneakers O'toole : 10/12/2019 4:35 pm : link
.
Damnit  
MookGiants : 10/13/2019 10:38 pm : link
very fortunate bounce for the Astros
In all fairness....  
Big_N : 10/14/2019 12:16 am : link
It's hard not to look like a desperate loser when your team has no talent. Once this team starts winning and he develops dj as a qb then you'll see his coach ability come through. At the very least his players like him and they play hard for him.
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