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Time to lay off Shumur

Alan in Toledo : 10/11/2019 1:16 pm
The team, last year and this, consistently plays hard for him while continuing to improve.

What's not to like?
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A lot  
Nine-Tails : 10/11/2019 2:30 pm : link
Hes not a good game manager, gets out-coached, has too many emotional outbursts over calls, inconsistent play calling, and his staff is subpar
Torrag  
JonC : 10/11/2019 2:34 pm : link
on target. Week to week he's getting his ass kicked by game management and his opponent coaches.
The players played hard last night  
Leg of Theismann : 10/11/2019 2:34 pm : link
Because 1) they are professional competitors, 2) their jobs are always at stake in this league and 95% of professional athletes approach games with everything theyíve got (besides those in completely hopeless situations like in Miami for instance), 3) playing the legendary Patriots and Tom Brady was like their 2019 super bowl, especially for all these young guys on the team. They had nothing to lose and it would have been an absolute coup if they pulled out a win, so they were giving it 110%. None of that surprised me at all.

Really low standard to set for an NFL head coach to simply say ďwell the players really tried hard to win the game for himĒ. They were trying to win the game because football is how they make their living and thatís what the fuck youíre supposed to do when you play football.
Who  
liteamorn : 10/11/2019 2:35 pm : link
Who would be his replacement? If we fire him mid season we kind of have to have someone ready to step in.
Also, I canít stress this enough  
Leg of Theismann : 10/11/2019 2:41 pm : link
The reason we stayed in the game last night was 100% the defense, which is Bettcher, not Shurmur. Give credit where credit is due. The offense had one nice play all night long and people are blowing Shurmur saying how amazing it is they stayed in the game with no weapons on offense etc. Shurmur didnít have much to work with offensively, sure, but he also showed me absolutely nothing that impressed me. Can anyone seriously point to one thing he did last night that was above and beyond expectation? If you can, the negative things he did (and negative iI mean things that no human with one iota of football sense would ever do in a million years) far outweigh anything decent he showed last night.
RE: Shurmur is a poor man's Jim Fassel  
MookGiants : 10/11/2019 2:46 pm : link
In comment 14624919 Larry in Pencilvania said:
Quote:
He'll never win anything, make head scratching decisions, will get ahead if he has superior assistants and because he's a nice guy players will play hard for him.

This team had gone through this already before they hired Coughlin. Not only does this team need a continued infusion in talent, but a real kick in the ass in the coaching department is required


Fassel won 14 games in 2000.

Shurmur has won what, 17 games total in 4 years as a coach.

The guy is a total loser. He couldnt wipe Jim Fassels ass on his best day.

He has to be one of the worst coaches that ever had more than one HC job in the history of the sport.
RE: I have still yet to see any creative play calling, I thought the  
FatMan in Charlotte : 10/11/2019 2:46 pm : link
In comment 14624927 Jim in Hoboken said:
Quote:
entire playbook would be applicable now that we have a mobile QB.

And he doesnít seem that competent as a HC either. Letís not do the same mental gymnastics on his coaching like we did Eliís play. We should realize that this is a lost season and Shurmur is here to keep the seat warm.

Letís hope for a turnaround like Fisher to McVey.


Jones has only played a couple quarters with Barkley, and one of the top 2 WR's has been out every game.

Is "opening up the playbook" code for doing a bunch of QB runs??

Because I sure as hell don't want to see that.
RE: Who  
Go Terps : 10/11/2019 2:49 pm : link
In comment 14624979 liteamorn said:
Quote:
Who would be his replacement? If we fire him mid season we kind of have to have someone ready to step in.


Give the job to Bettcher on an interim basis. In the meantime we have between now and January to study and completely rethink how this organization is run. Conduct that study, compile a list of candidates that can execute the plan that comes out of that study, and get to work interviewing them.

But we're not gaining anything by keeping Shurmur on one game longer.
I will just leave it at this  
Carson53 : 10/11/2019 2:50 pm : link
IF or WHEN the Giants turn it around in the future,
I don't think Shurmur will be around. I don't want to
belabor what others have mentioned on here.
One thing I will add, the way he uses his timeouts can be
annoying as hell, I guess we will throw that under
'game management' or 'clock management' then.
RE:  
Alan in Toledo : 10/11/2019 2:51 pm : link
In comment 14624849 Bubba said:
Quote:
Pat S.


I'm underwhelmed by your faux generosity.
RE: I think you are confusing playing hard for him and being loyal  
Alan in Toledo : 10/11/2019 2:53 pm : link
In comment 14624871 Dinger said:
Quote:
Last nights game was the hardest game they've played. I'll say it again (as I did on another post); How can he have them up for this game but not the season opener? Against a division rival?


Ton of new players understandably not ready in week one.
RE: RE: I have still yet to see any creative play calling, I thought the  
Carson53 : 10/11/2019 2:55 pm : link
In comment 14625006 FatMan in Charlotte said:
Quote:
In comment 14624927 Jim in Hoboken said:


Quote:


entire playbook would be applicable now that we have a mobile QB.

And he doesnít seem that competent as a HC either. Letís not do the same mental gymnastics on his coaching like we did Eliís play. We should realize that this is a lost season and Shurmur is here to keep the seat warm.

Letís hope for a turnaround like Fisher to McVey.



Jones has only played a couple quarters with Barkley, and one of the top 2 WR's has been out every game.

Is "opening up the playbook" code for doing a bunch of QB runs??

Because I sure as hell don't want to see that.
.

It is difficult to open up the playbook, when 65% of your offense wasn't on the field last night. That might have more merit in the future.
RE: Some of you live in LALa land  
upnyg : 10/11/2019 2:56 pm : link
In comment 14624899 BigBlueDownTheShore said:
Quote:
We were never ever going to be a good team this season.

The way we handled the ElI benching really screwed Shurmur from the start. Could have axed him 2 years ago, still drafted Saquon, and used that cap for better players.

Instead you whined and bitched and moaned and here we are finally headed in the right direction after slowly ripping the bandaid off and you want to reverse course.

Our team has been gutted in 2 years and DG hasnít really landed great FA help but letís put him up on a pedestal.

This is what needed to be done. Shurmur actually deserves a year when we have a more complete team to coach. Heís fair game at that point, but right now heís making something out of nothing. Itís actually watchable football.

Good points. Shurmur is the guy going through a painful rebuild with a total new roster turned over. he's in year 1 1/2 so far and we may have our franchise QB and RB. He needs 3 years unless the team loses it in the locker room.

Everytime you start over the new regime purges the roster...let the leadership have 3 years.
Didn't..  
FatMan in Charlotte : 10/11/2019 2:56 pm : link
people say Bettcher is in over his head?? A few people are calling this a terrible, dysfunctioanal D

Yet we would advocate promoting him to HC?
If you watched the last two games  
arniefez : 10/11/2019 2:59 pm : link
the other teams had superior rosters but who thought that the Giant head coach did everything he could with what he had but the talent just wasn't there.

Or did you think the Giants are at the same disadvantage on the sideline than they are on the field. Because they are. If you don't see it you don't know what you're watching.

Even the complete BBI sycophants and Baghdad Bob's are in the you'll have to ask Rudy phase at this point.

If the Giants lose to AZ at home it's pretty much the beginning of the end.

RE: RE: Shurmur is a poor man's Jim Fassel  
jcn56 : 10/11/2019 3:00 pm : link
In comment 14625005 MookGiants said:
Quote:
In comment 14624919 Larry in Pencilvania said:


Quote:


He'll never win anything, make head scratching decisions, will get ahead if he has superior assistants and because he's a nice guy players will play hard for him.

This team had gone through this already before they hired Coughlin. Not only does this team need a continued infusion in talent, but a real kick in the ass in the coaching department is required



Fassel won 14 games in 2000.

Shurmur has won what, 17 games total in 4 years as a coach.

The guy is a total loser. He couldnt wipe Jim Fassels ass on his best day.

He has to be one of the worst coaches that ever had more than one HC job in the history of the sport.


Seriously - Fassel made it to a Super Bowl - this guy making the playoffs would be a huge career upswing.
I'm still in wait and see mode  
AcesUp : 10/11/2019 3:04 pm : link
But that was an awful 4th quarter yesterday. Hilliman should not have even been out there over Penny at the end, let alone being the guy you lean on in 2nd and 3rd and long on a key possession. There's no defending that last punt.
RE: RE: Shurmur is a poor man's Jim Fassel  
V.I.G. : 10/11/2019 3:05 pm : link
In comment 14625005 MookGiants said:
Quote:
In comment 14624919 Larry in Pencilvania said:


Quote:


He'll never win anything, make head scratching decisions, will get ahead if he has superior assistants and because he's a nice guy players will play hard for him.

This team had gone through this already before they hired Coughlin. Not only does this team need a continued infusion in talent, but a real kick in the ass in the coaching department is required



Fassel won 14 games in 2000.

Shurmur has won what, 17 games total in 4 years as a coach.

The guy is a total loser. He couldnt wipe Jim Fassels ass on his best day.

He has to be one of the worst coaches that ever had more than one HC job in the history of the sport.

there it is - the dumbest thought of the week, maybe the year. How can you compare that giants 2000 roster to this season's with all the new faces, rookies, and injuries. Fassel was the definition of a guy that got his team to play down to the competition. Shurmur IMO has been the opposite.
Hopefully the Giants FO will be patient  
bc4life : 10/11/2019 3:07 pm : link
re: Shurmur. Had bad teams in Cleveland and inherited a pretty bad NYG team. Defense is finally starting to play better. Offense is missing its' start player. Looking for them to start putting things together over the next few games.
It's the same damn argument as the QB argument  
USAF NYG Fan : 10/11/2019 3:08 pm : link
Let's say they take the advice of many of the "Fire Shurmur OMG he sucks" crowd.....

WHO ARE YOU GOING TO REPLACE HIM WITH????

We get complaining by the same posters without presenting ANY alternative much less a viable one. Just proves it's bitching for the sake of bitching.

Seriously, it's the same damn argument. So many people were saying bench Eli. Really? For who? Spend a draft pick on a maybe and not wait for someone they really want/like? They throw a dart at the board approach? They should have drafted Darnold instead of Barkley? Really? They should not have taken the RotY and waited to get quite possibly the next RotY?

Wait and see? Shurmur and Gettleman have only taken the reins but for a minute. Let them build it before you tear it down without so much as a blueprint for how to do it better.
I'm all for  
mrvax : 10/11/2019 3:10 pm : link
giving Shurmur enough rope. I won't pick on him in-season (much).
If the team completes the year playing hard and slowly but surely improves, I think he gets 2020. If not, then try again with another HC.

"Injuries are part of the game". True, but they do have a direct affect on the team's record. Missing 3-4 of your best offensive weapons is going to be reflected in the score.

I do think Shurmur needs to work with a trusted assistant to decide clock management, 4th downs, and challenges. Let Shurmur work his magic with the QB and play calls. McAdoo and TC had some trouble they could have delegated too.
Shurmur  
TyreeHelmet : 10/11/2019 3:10 pm : link
Is this a joke?

What does he do well? Heís proven to be a bad coach. But the giants will change coordinators or something and give him another losing year before firing him. The sooner heís gone the better.
Needs to do  
Coach Red Beaulieu : 10/11/2019 3:30 pm : link
In Poker terms he's a rock, an easy mark and read.
OC yes, HC no  
Bruner4329 : 10/11/2019 3:38 pm : link
I would be perfectly fine with him as the OC but we need a better HC. And for the life of me still trying to understand logic of going to a 3-4 defense when this organization has not drafted a legitimate LB since Jesse Armstrong and can also be listed as having the worst LB group in the league the last 5 years.
RE: He sucks as a HC  
Bluesbreaker : 10/11/2019 3:46 pm : link
In comment 14624860 JonC said:
Quote:
.


He is a good OC in the right situation and yes we should
be looking for his replacement . I have no idea who that
might be othere people here may know a younger up and
coming guy but I prefer a former head coach .
Who is the best guy suited to replace Shurmur .
Pats were arrogant assholes last night and BB had no problem
going for it on 4th down .they had zero respect for us and
they have never got over the two losses to us and
it shows after the Golden TD that was a marvelous effort
to score they were shocked it was a punch in the gut
As undermanned as we were I say we beat them when our
guys are back .
RE: Didn't..  
Go Terps : 10/11/2019 3:47 pm : link
In comment 14625023 FatMan in Charlotte said:
Quote:
people say Bettcher is in over his head?? A few people are calling this a terrible, dysfunctioanal D

Yet we would advocate promoting him to HC?


No, we're advocating firing Shurmur. Someone asked who should take over.

But a sea change is needed in how this team is run. Waiting until the end of the season, or God forbid the end of 2020, is wasting more time.
everyone saying give him a longer leash because  
Platos : 10/11/2019 3:49 pm : link
we didn't get rid of eli earlier and we didn't do this or that in FA need to stop.

the fact is if you don't make the right calls when the games out of reach and doesn't matter, how do we know you can when the game is within a score and we need to manage time outs, call the right plays, or take the right chances?

he uses time outs like its going out of style. his decisions to go for it on 4th have no rhyme or reason. he also makes questionable play calls which i'll lay off him on the play calling because a lot of that could be on execution but he needs to adjust!
I didn't want Shurmur here to begin with...  
bw in dc : 10/11/2019 3:57 pm : link
but feel I need to defend a guy here.

He's really shouldering way too much blame here. I believe the majority of NFL games are won before they are played. You need talent to win these games. And right now we just don't have enough of it to consistently compete and win. That's Gettleman's job.

Layer on the injuries to key offensive pieces, plus a rookie QB who is dealing with the ups and downs of the rookie cycle, than nothing about these results should be surprising.

If you think these real time questionable decisions by Shurmur are unique to him, I suggest you watch more games because it's sort of an epidemic around the league. From Pete Carroll to Mike Tomlin to Andy Reid to Ron Rivera to etc, there are questionable decisions being made every single game.




Go Terps are you suggesting we bring in a consultant group  
JoeFootball : 10/11/2019 4:07 pm : link
to reorganize and fill the Giants organization?
I was about to agree with the OP  
.McL. : 10/11/2019 5:05 pm : link
I thought when he said "Lay Off" that he meant as in getting laid off from his job!!!

But alas, that is not what he meant... Oh well...
What about  
NikkiMac : 10/11/2019 5:08 pm : link
Rex Ryan about time the Gmen go back to defensive coach
RE: RE: He sucks as a HC  
Les in TO : 10/11/2019 5:21 pm : link
In comment 14625095 Bluesbreaker said:
Quote:
In comment 14624860 JonC said:


Quote:


.



He is a good OC in the right situation and yes we should
be looking for his replacement . I have no idea who that
might be othere people here may know a younger up and
coming guy but I prefer a former head coach .
Who is the best guy suited to replace Shurmur .
Pats were arrogant assholes last night and BB had no problem
going for it on 4th down .they had zero respect for us and
they have never got over the two losses to us and
it shows after the Golden TD that was a marvelous effort
to score they were shocked it was a punch in the gut
As undermanned as we were I say we beat them when our
guys are back .
The Pats went for it on 4th down because of the wind and Nugent.
I'd feel a lot better about Shurmur  
santacruzom : 10/11/2019 5:38 pm : link
if there was any reason to believe that he is capable of improving upon his shortcomings, or even merely recognizing that he has them.

I don't see any signs that he can or does.
RE: Go Terps are you suggesting we bring in a consultant group  
Go Terps : 10/11/2019 5:40 pm : link
In comment 14625125 JoeFootball said:
Quote:
to reorganize and fill the Giants organization?


I've been suggesting that for a couple years.
RE: RE: RE: Shurmur is a poor man's Jim Fassel  
MookGiants : 10/11/2019 5:41 pm : link
In comment 14625030 V.I.G. said:
Quote:
In comment 14625005 MookGiants said:


Quote:


In comment 14624919 Larry in Pencilvania said:


Quote:


He'll never win anything, make head scratching decisions, will get ahead if he has superior assistants and because he's a nice guy players will play hard for him.

This team had gone through this already before they hired Coughlin. Not only does this team need a continued infusion in talent, but a real kick in the ass in the coaching department is required



Fassel won 14 games in 2000.

Shurmur has won what, 17 games total in 4 years as a coach.

The guy is a total loser. He couldnt wipe Jim Fassels ass on his best day.

He has to be one of the worst coaches that ever had more than one HC job in the history of the sport.


there it is - the dumbest thought of the week, maybe the year. How can you compare that giants 2000 roster to this season's with all the new faces, rookies, and injuries. Fassel was the definition of a guy that got his team to play down to the competition. Shurmur IMO has been the opposite.


Yeah, Shurmur, the guy who has one of the 10 worst records in NFL history as a head coach, is comparable to Jim Fassel.

Fassel had plenty of faults. But he was light years better as a head coach than Pat Shurmur.

Fassel went to the playoffs 3 times. Had a 58-53-1 record as a HC. Pat Shurmur has never even sniffed the playoffs as a head coach. Hell, he's never even sniffed a meaningful december as a head coach.

That 1997 team had ridiculous talent everywhere in Fassel's first year.

Pat Shurmur is a loser. He's never done a damn fucking thing as a head coach. The only thing he does well as a head coach is lose at a rate rarely seen in the history of the sport.

He was a loser when they hired him and nothing has changed. Pat Shurmur's name belongs no where near Jim Fassel's name.

Pat Shurmurs name belongs with Hue Jacksons, Steve Spagnuolo, Gus Bradley. None of those other guys is ever getting a 2nd head coaching job.

He's a decent offensive coordinator. Nothing else.
I'm not as down on him as many.  
Sneakers O'toole : 10/11/2019 5:42 pm : link
I tend to agree with the OP.
Calling for his head is premature  
Sneakers O'toole : 10/11/2019 5:42 pm : link
.
I'm still "jury out" on Shurmur,  
PatersonPlank : 10/11/2019 5:44 pm : link
however I don't think last nights game was the game to make any decisions based on. We were missing our 3 best offensive weapons, our backup RB, and a LB or two. No one coaching the Giants was winning last night.

Lets see what happens in the next couple of games. We have a chance to win every one.
RE: RE: He deserves a better roster  
santacruzom : 10/11/2019 5:46 pm : link
In comment 14624966 Zeke's Alibi said:
Quote:

Big test coming up with Saquon coming back against a weak defense.


At this point though, any assumption that he'll actually utilize Barkley effectively, aggressively, and consistently is based on nothing but faith.
jury out?  
MookGiants : 10/11/2019 5:47 pm : link
How much more do you need to see him lose? That's all he does as a head coach. He loses 7 of every 10 games.

Go Terps is there a NFL football specific consultant  
JoeFootball : 10/11/2019 6:00 pm : link
group that teams use. Serious question, every head coach search I've heard of is a group of former players or employees that the owners trust that come back with a short list. Who's used one successful?
RE: RE: RE: RE: Shurmur is a poor man's Jim Fassel  
V.I.G. : 10/11/2019 6:02 pm : link
In comment 14625279 MookGiants said:
Quote:

He was a loser when they hired him and nothing has changed. Pat Shurmur's name belongs no where near Jim Fassel's name.


Mook - I'll play along but please address my point.

Has Shurmur had ONE roster as talented as Fassel's least talented roster? I'll save you the time. The answer is NO.

So then please explain how an underachieving Fassel who hasn't sniffed another HC gig besides the XFL is such a better HC. Yet Shurmur has had shit to work with but that's all on him? I mean, come on...
RE: jury out?  
V.I.G. : 10/11/2019 6:05 pm : link
In comment 14625289 MookGiants said:
Quote:
How much more do you need to see him lose? That's all he does as a head coach. He loses 7 of every 10 games.

you think he bats .300 if he coached the Rams?

He's had some of the worst rosters in the history of the NFL.

So no. Jury is still in deliberation until gettlemen can put something resembling a winning roster on the field.
Setting aside the punt issue  
Sneakers O'toole : 10/11/2019 6:07 pm : link
I'm curious what they should have done differently on offense. An offense totally outmatched.

I see criticism of going up tempo. It was obviously an attempt to mitigate just how badly matchef up we were. Strange criticism.
You can throw out his Browns record.  
Sneakers O'toole : 10/11/2019 6:09 pm : link
Nobody has done shit there. It's been a shitshow of an organization since it's rebirth.

Nobody coaching their way put of that.
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: Shurmur is a poor man's Jim Fassel  
santacruzom : 10/11/2019 6:19 pm : link
In comment 14625307 V.I.G. said:
Quote:
In comment 14625279 MookGiants said:


Quote:



He was a loser when they hired him and nothing has changed. Pat Shurmur's name belongs no where near Jim Fassel's name.




Mook - I'll play along but please address my point.

Has Shurmur had ONE roster as talented as Fassel's least tale


I think so. 1997 and 1998 weren't terribly talented. Don't be fooled by some of the names on those rosters -- they were not yet playing at the level they eventually achieved.
...  
christian : 10/11/2019 6:35 pm : link
Who are all the untalented players on the roster?

I understand there are a bunch of guys banged up right now. But really who are all these scrubs on the team?

The only regular players who aren't well paid or acquired through high pricks/trades are; Halopio, Latimer, Davis, Haley, and Bethea.

Every other frontline player on this team was a 3rd round pick or higher, or acquired in a trade or UFA.
The Patriots at no point had to respect the running game  
Sneakers O'toole : 10/11/2019 6:42 pm : link
Tate was the biggest threat to them, amd an emerging Slayton. The Pats feast on this sort of thing.
Quite frankly  
Sneakers O'toole : 10/11/2019 6:44 pm : link
We fared better than I hoped for 3 quarters.
RE: He sucks as a HC  
jvm52106 : 10/11/2019 6:45 pm : link
In comment 14624860 JonC said:
Quote:
.


Thank you.. Everything he does screams of average and below average. The poor use of Barkley, the lack of feel for when to throttle up and when to slow it down, the challenges that always appear like he was emotionally driven to it and after failing with the challenge he seems like it was a desperation attempt, poor use of clock, time outs and calling plays for players clearly not suited for it- Eli roll-out on 4th and 2, Hilliman on, well pretty much any play, short yardage plays to Hilliman when Penny was the size power choice etc. and his lack of guts on when to go for it and when not to..
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