NFL officiating...

it is the rules.

on Jarvis Landry.

In comment 14627084 EricJ said:

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it is the rules.

Wrong. It is inconsistent application of the rules. Huge discrepancy between crews that is totally unacceptable.

Hell the coaches actually study film on the upcoming game's refs and coach players on their penalty call tendencies, what not to do etc. because of what that particular officiating team calls or does not call.

That to me is beyond belief- they should be consistent across the board.

Kyler Murray ran out of bounds a half-yard short of a first down, and the refs inexplicably gave him the first down, then upheld it on replay. That first down ended the game. The league really needs to get its shit together with this officiating.

is glaring. Watch the way the Pats hit WR's early or the way the Rams and Niners did it today. On those bang-bang plays, they've seemingly let them play - but in the Jets game - nope. Shocking it was Dallas driving.

The final home game of the season last year, the Jets had 6 straight penalties in OT vs. the Packers and lost. It happened again today.

The inconsistent calls are game in and game out now

interference

NFL officials stink to high heaven. They don't call blatant fouls, call ticky-tacky stuff when they feel like it, and give the general impression that they are playing favorites with every game.

Considering that gambling on NFL games is now legal, this is a situation that is absolutely intolerable. Any zebra can be bought. It has happened in the NBA, it has happened in college sports, and players have been bought in pro baseball and college sports, too.

This officiating situation is going to kill the NFL if the owners don't wake up and do something about it.

In comment 14627114 NYerInMA said:

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Kyler Murray ran out of bounds a half-yard short of a first down, and the refs inexplicably gave him the first down, then upheld it on replay. That first down ended the game. The league really needs to get its shit together with this officiating.

What was even worse was the TV ref's explaination. He said, "it doesn't matter where his foot goes out of bounds, it matters where his momentum carries the ball out of bounds." Bullshit. On that play, the ball went out of bounds even further from the first down then where his foot went out. That call seriously makes me think that game was fixed. I mean there is no guarantee that Atlanta would come back and score, but they were denied the earned right to try.

Long story short, today’s game compared to games from 2009 or so, we’re seeing about 4-5-6 more penalties per game. That may not sound like much but it is. That also doesn’t factor in the stupid challenges and stoppages and reviews. Simply put, the game has gotten less and less enjoyable. The players are still amazing. The game itself is amazing. The increases legislation and choppy coverage has stopped the game in its tracks.

Was painful to watch.

(Caveat i had Atlanta in a survivor) but Murray clearly ran out half a year short, didn’t extend ball, and someone they let the play stand. If called correctly Atlanta gets ball back down 1 with 1:37 to go.

In comment 14627097 section125 said:

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In comment 14627084 EricJ said: Quote: it is the rules. Wrong. It is inconsistent application of the rules. Huge discrepancy between crews that is totally unacceptable.

I disagree...
We have so many more rules now versus 30 years ago. It is not even close. These additional rules are resulting in more penalties.

Now, it does not mean that officials cannot be bad but we always had bad officials. Jerry Markbreit (sp?) was a guy who thought he was the star of the game. My father used to complain that the guy was ruining the game just as you are suggesting today.

The reality is we added more rules to increase scoring and lots of rules to apparently protect players. Those are the two major categories where we are seeing many more flags today versus years ago.

overturned and the phantom fair catch interference from the Falcons and Cards game as well.

The NFL corporation needs to clean house. Then
Make rules 100% crystal clear.
Train and test the refs. Make them pass difficult tests. No pass = bye-bye.

Any rule confusion or poor judgement by the refs ruins this once great game.

Needs to go.

In comment 14627121 gtt350 said:

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interference

Another gem is when Latimer pushes off a weakling corner jamming him. Penalty, too strong.

When people start laughing at you, the end is near.

I changed the channel - and I hate the Jets. Not only was it a bang-bang play on slow-mo instant replay, but Adams is on the route faster than ancient Witten.

No way that should've been called, particularly considering some of the stuff we saw the Pats get away with Thursday. It's almost as if they are going to throw PI to entice the coaches to challenge... and then toss the challenge.

The game is being ruined.

It’s so bad that it calls into question the integrity of the game. I don’t really enjoy the NBA for much of the reasons I’m starting to turn away from the NFL. You can’t watch an NBA game where the officials aren’t integral to the outcome of the game and it’s pretty much the same now with the NFL.

To me the problem is replay. The officials on the field think replay will bail them out while the officials reviewing replay seem to reluctant to overturn what’s called on the field. It’s every week in almost every game where we see inexplicable calls and even more baffling reviews. If replay isn’t going to work, then why not get of it altogether?

the officials are inconsistent on letting plays go on.

Take into account the fumble by Edelman Thursday. The refs are supposed to let those type of plays keep going. They blew the whistle, called the ball incomplete and then didn't overturn the call. Today, there were plays that looked dead that they let continue on.

In comment 14627115 FatMan in Charlotte said:

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is glaring. Watch the way the Pats hit WR's early or the way the Rams and Niners did it today. On those bang-bang plays, they've seemingly let them play - but in the Jets game - nope. Shocking it was Dallas driving. The final home game of the season last year, the Jets had 6 straight penalties in OT vs. the Packers and lost. It happened again today. The inconsistent calls are game in and game out now

The cowboys are the one team who I actually believe some conspiracy theories about when it comes to officiating. It’s insane some of the breaks and calls they get on a weekly basis that other teams don’t get nearly as often.

They should only be calling things that are obvious and affect the play. These ticky tacky fouls that may be are wrong in the extreme letter of the law, need to be let go. Its almost like on every big play the refs already have their hand in their pocket. The game is about the teams not about the refs.

In comment 14627353 PatersonPlank said:

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They should only be calling things that are obvious and affect the play. These ticky tacky fouls that may be are wrong in the extreme letter of the law, need to be let go. Its almost like on every big play the refs already have their hand in their pocket. The game is about the teams not about the refs.

I've been saying this for several years now and I originally was blasted for it, but as people see the shitshow that has happened, I think they see it more that way.

If you limited penalties to blatant infractions or those that directly impacted the play, you'd never see a slight brush of a player as two guys are running full speed side by side called. You'd never see phantom holds. You'd never see an illegal contact penalty on the far side of the field on 3rd and 18.

But better yet, you'd actually have a flow to the game and an even distribution of fairness to both the offense and defense.

Defensive holding might be the biggest horseshit call in any sport. It seemingly was put in place to artificially inflate scores, which is a terrible reason to ever do something.

And yet, they can throw a flag for tackling Sterling shepard and pick it up...... -

You can throw a flag on every play.

Alas, that's exactly what we saw at the end of that hideous Jets/Dallas game.

On one of the two last penalties on that Dallas TD drive, the penalty that should have been called, based on the idiocy of the QB roughing call, was when Dak got leveled on an out pass in the red zone.

In a very quite way, he's starting to take the baton from Cam Newton as a QB who doesn't get the benefit of some big hits...

And as I said on another thread, the team with the absolute biggest gripe about officiating this year is clearly Denver. If not for two outrageously bad roughing the QB calls that went against them late in the Bears and Jags games, they'd be on TOP of the AFC West. Those are calls that clearly impacted the outcomes of games at the most crucial moments of those games.

on the flipside, Seattle actually could be 2-4 right now if they didn't get preferential calls. Russell Wilson has drawn 6 personal fouls this year and one today was really perplexing. Looked like he was going to be called for intentional grounding which would have made it 3rd and really long, but instead, they huddled for a couple of minutes and called roughing.

Add the ridiculous call against Matthews in the Rams game and a terrible call on the Steelers and the Seahawks could easily have lost those games.

The officiating isn't just terrible, it is having a tangible impact on the season.

Wilson is clearly the darling of the NFL/FO; and has morphed into the Michael Jordan of the NFL with referees.

In comment 14627146 bhill410 said:

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(Caveat i had Atlanta in a survivor) but Murray clearly ran out half a year short, didn’t extend ball, and someone they let the play stand. If called correctly Atlanta gets ball back down 1 with 1:37 to go.

This. I 100% agree with you. Not sure how anyone watches this game and thinks officiating is in the up and up.

The philly/minny game was a joke. Doesn’t the league watch and rate theses referees performance? Then they know. Or the fix is in.

Where the Dallas QB “kneed” the defender in the helmet. No call. Why is a QB’s brain anymore important that a DB’s?

people are going to wake up to the fact that paying someone 30 million dollars because he can throw a football is insane.

Gladiatorial combat eventually faded. So, too, will the NFL.

In comment 14627888 Nomad Crow on the Madison said:

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people are going to wake up to the fact that paying someone 30 million dollars because he can throw a football is insane. Gladiatorial combat eventually faded. So, too, will the NFL.

right... until the UFC gained incredible popularity.

is so much inconsistency within games, week-to-week and across officiating crews, yet you believe certain teams/players get favoritism...

In comment 14627898 Jimmy Googs said:

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is so much inconsistency within games, week-to-week and across officiating crews, yet you believe certain teams/players get favoritism...

There is, even if subconsciously. The perceived better teams/player always get the benefit of calls. Always have. NE DBs grabbing and holding all night - no calls. Dallas yesterday - six penalties on last drive.

In comment 14627907 section125 said:

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In comment 14627898 Jimmy Googs said: Quote: is so much inconsistency within games, week-to-week and across officiating crews, yet you believe certain teams/players get favoritism... There is, even if subconsciously. The perceived better teams/player always get the benefit of calls. Always have. NE DBs grabbing and holding all night - no calls. Dallas yesterday - six penalties on last drive.

What are you talking about? Dallas got hurt on some big plays including the Witten td. And 2 of the 6 calls on the last drive were against them.

try again...

Jets had 8.

In comment 14627916 bw in dc said:

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Jets had 8.

Not how many, it is when. On that last drive they had one go against them, then kept on getting questionable illegal contacts or PIs(5, iirc)..one OPI for a pick called on them was questionable too on what would have been a TD.

But you don't think better teams get more calls for them?

there is some bias to the better teams based on reputation. "The Jordan Effect" of sorts.

But I believe more in the idea the refs are simply incompetent. However, when certain plays or calls are made that have a chance to be rectified that aren't - there's another agenda at play.

I'm still wondering how the Jennings fumble in GB was called and not overturned. Just fishy all around. I get why the PI wasn't reversed against NE - that's the refs snubbing their nose. But it is still an agenda.

The other thing that is unacceptable is that in late game situations, there's not enough oversight from NY to intervene. Take the Giants vs. Carolina last year. McCaffery clearly doesn't get a first down, but no replay is initiated and the Panthers are given a 1st down and a chance to kick a 63 yard FG. That type of situation happens often and it seems like somebody is asleep at the button. That's incompetence

where I can’t watch a game outside of the Giants. There are so many BLATANT fouls not being called and fouls being called for absolutely nothing. The NFL is like the 70’s Giants, their product is SHIT , but they don’t care because people are still buying their product, selling out stadiums.

flags where it seems like nothing happened are the biggest gripe, especially since they seem to come out frequently on 3rd down stops.

I'd like to get a reasoning from an official on how they would call no contact or minor contact on a play and then ask "How do you not throw a flag on every play then?"

that's why I'd advocate only penalizing blatant fouls or ones that impact the play - because you are dealing with a system where refs pick and choose which plays to flag anyway. A TE being impeded 3 yards from the LOS gets called in a crucial situation away from the play, but the other 8 times it happens - no call.

just showing the totals.

Do I think a team like New England gets the benefit of the doubt with calls? Probably. But they are exceedingly well coached, have Brady, and are still on this historic run. They have some equity there.

Like I said above, there have been enormous calls that have impacted standings this year, particularly in the AFCW. Denver has been absolutely hosed at the end of two games. Against Chicago and Jax, the Denver D was called for roughing the QB that extended game winning drives for those teams. Instead of being 2-4, they should be 4-2 and tied with the Chiefs.

Further, as FMiC pointed out, the league has declared Russell Wilson the "chosen one". So he gets calls in his benefit that are outrageous. And now he seems to have the luxury of talking refs into changing their calls...

In comment 14627921 section125 said:

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In comment 14627916 bw in dc said: Quote: Jets had 8. Not how many, it is when. On that last drive they had one go against them, then kept on getting questionable illegal contacts or PIs(5, iirc)..one OPI for a pick called on them was questionable too on what would have been a TD. But you don't think better teams get more calls for them?

your use of the Dallas Jet game goes directly against your argument...

In comment 14627943 bw in dc said:

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just showing the totals. Do I think a team like New England gets the benefit of the doubt with calls? Probably. But they are exceedingly well coached, have Brady, and are still on this historic run. They have some equity there. Like I said above, there have been enormous calls that have impacted standings this year, particularly in the AFCW. Denver has been absolutely hosed at the end of two games. Against Chicago and Jax, the Denver D was called for roughing the QB that extended game winning drives for those teams. Instead of being 2-4, they should be 4-2 and tied with the Chiefs. Further, as FMiC pointed out, the league has declared Russell Wilson the "chosen one". So he gets calls in his benefit that are outrageous. And now he seems to have the luxury of talking refs into changing their calls...

I didn't see the Seattle game but, again, you all are taking this favoritism on calls for players/team too far in my view. It doesn't have any logical basis. I am happy to focus on Seahawk games and Wilson for the next few games and give you my take if the "fix" is in...

doesn't want to have officials looking over their shoulders on every play. It would be hard to be a game official that way. But, the agenda on the PI reversals or calls is mind numbing. When Pereira says that it is PI, but not really egregious, what does that mean? I thought he believed that PI the other night should have been called, but wouldn't be reversed because it wasn't outlandish enough.(Hell NE was doing that almost ever play anyway.) Not that that play was a ticky tack PI, but it was not only PI, but illegal contact. Maybe if the score was closer they reverse it.

Could also be that the league put it in with a wink and nod toward the officials union that the rule would stifle the New Orleans group's noise.

for some players definitely exists. The only question is the motivation for it:

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I didn't see the Seattle game but, again, you all are taking this favoritism on calls for players/team too far in my view. It doesn't have any logical basis. I am happy to focus on Seahawk games and Wilson for the next few games and give you my take if the "fix" is in...

Wilson has drawn 6 PF calls this year. If you've looked at them, maybe 1 of them was a legit penalty. In yesterday's game, even the announcers thought the refs were huddling to determine if there was grounding, and they came back with a PF call, on a play where he was taken down as he threw, with no blow to his head or leg area. The hit from clay Matthews the week prior was clean and not late.

Maybe they are protecting him because he's tiny, but again - that's an inconsistency at best.

In comment 14627958 Jimmy Googs said:

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I didn't see the Seattle game but, again, you all are taking this favoritism on calls for players/team too far in my view. It doesn't have any logical basis. I am happy to focus on Seahawk games and Wilson for the next few games and give you my take if the "fix" is in...

Like I suggested, I think New England has earned it. And that's not uncommon in team sports. Sort of comes with the territory of being a dynasty.

I'm not taking the pro-Wilson calls too far. The league is. And I don't look for the calls. I enjoy watching Wilson's unorthodox game. But then these calls pop-up and you can't help but wonder what the hell is going on...

That MNF game where Wilson essentially got pushed by Clay Matthews, and then went looking for the call, was patently absurd.

doing it...yes.

Do i think they do it to Wilson because he is shorter than other QBs or that they want him to have a good game and have Seattle win...no

I am fine agreeing to poor officiating, inconsistent officiating, and even egregious-type calls that decide the outcome of games. Believing that it is some pre-conceived, planned conspiracy to favor a player/team makes me chuckle (at some of my favorite chuckleheads) :-)

doesn't have to be pre-conceived or planned. They can see a small guy go flying and decide to throw a flag even if it isn't an illegal hit.

and stop talking both ways. Either you believe there is purposeful favoritism in some of these bad calls, or these are just some of the overall bad calls.

Take a side and let me know. Happy to discuss further...

The point is that officiating is bad. For a number of reasons.

An onerous rule book. Too much subjectivity. Inconsistent application of the rules from crew to crew.

And that also includes certain players getting calls other players don't. We don't know if that is bias or incompetence - likely a combination of both. But when a player draws 6 PF calls without any of them being egregious it will always strike up debate.

But if you say it shouldn't be debated, I guess we should all just stop.

The arbiter of behavior has spoken....

In comment 14627084 EricJ said:

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it is the rules.

Like with most things, it's both. The call on the Jets player defending Witten on that last drive was hilariously bad.

In comment 14628042 FatMan in Charlotte said:

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The point is that officiating is bad. For a number of reasons. An onerous rule book. Too much subjectivity. Inconsistent application of the rules from crew to crew. And that also includes certain players getting calls other players don't. We don't know if that is bias or incompetence - likely a combination of both. But when a player draws 6 PF calls without any of them being egregious it will always strike up debate. But if you say it shouldn't be debated, I guess we should all just stop. The arbiter of behavior has spoken....

The worst is the that Dallas didn't even bother challenging the ridiculous opi that took a td off the board.

Dallas-NYJ game was hilarious.

In comment 14628042 FatMan in Charlotte said:

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The point is that officiating is bad. For a number of reasons. An onerous rule book. Too much subjectivity. Inconsistent application of the rules from crew to crew. And that also includes certain players getting calls other players don't. We don't know if that is bias or incompetence - likely a combination of both. But when a player draws 6 PF calls without any of them being egregious it will always strike up debate. But if you say it shouldn't be debated, I guess we should all just stop. The arbiter of behavior has spoken....

Unfortunately you don't have wit to be funny.

Nevertheless, debate the bad officiating all you want. My point is very simple that your debate goes too far when you state that officiating is trying to favor certain teams/players purposefully.

And that is what posts above are saying, even if you didn't really mean it...

In comment 14628049 Zeke's Alibi said:

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In comment 14628042 FatMan in Charlotte said: Quote: The point is that officiating is bad. For a number of reasons. An onerous rule book. Too much subjectivity. Inconsistent application of the rules from crew to crew. And that also includes certain players getting calls other players don't. We don't know if that is bias or incompetence - likely a combination of both. But when a player draws 6 PF calls without any of them being egregious it will always strike up debate. But if you say it shouldn't be debated, I guess we should all just stop. The arbiter of behavior has spoken.... The worst is the that Dallas didn't even bother challenging the ridiculous opi that took a td off the board.

Garrett may only be an average coach, but he is smart and can read the writing on the wall - PIs will not be overturned. Figured it would not be reversed and did not want to burn a TO.

is yea while they snuck in some flags against dallas, it didn't matter because the final flag was probably one of the worst calls of DPI ever. you completely negate those calls against dallas by giving them a free set of downs.

In comment 14628082 section125 said:

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Garrett may only be an average coach, but he is smart and can read the writing on the wall - PIs will not be overturned. Figured it would not be reversed and did not want to burn a TO.

Bingo. Add in further that the play they sent in was instructed to do something similiar (interfere but w/o getting caught), Garret passed on the challenge...

But I guess since Dallas gets all the calls anyway he should have expected some love with a challenge? No wait...Dak isn't getting roughing the passer calls in his favor since Cam Newton is out. Wait again, there were 6 calls on their final touchdown drive. Whoops, 2 of them were against the Jets.

This is all so confusing...are the crews trying to help or hurt the Cowboys win?

they need to start playing on grassy knolls instead of grass...

But there is certainly preferential treatment. And that treatment, at very crucial times, is having an impact on outcomes.

play in some pools and was texting at the end of the Jet game with a friend of mine wondering how do we keep watch this crap? How did it come to this? There have always been bad calls in the NFL but not week after week game after game. You can't even get excited watching a good play anymore. But the replays and the refs most of them don't happen in real time anymore.

play in some pools and was texting at the end of the Jet game with a friend of mine wondering how do we keep watching this crap? How did it come to this? There have always been bad calls in the NFL but not week after week game after game. You can't even get excited watching a good play anymore. Between the replays and the refs most of them don't happen in real time anymore.

Remember when officials used to have conversations with players between plays? Like hey knock it off or we are going to have to call that. That never happens anymore, the refs look like a bunch deaf mutes out there.

It won't impact their bottom line because of gambling and DFS but they will start to squeeze out the fans that aren't interested in the gaming aspect. It is becoming unwatchable and they really need to do something about it.

Simplify the rulebook, hold the officials more accountable and start using the real-time tools available in 2019.

I think it's become pretty evident that the NFL doesn't want coaches challenging PI calls.

It's like they've decided that unless it's a repeat of the Saints' situation, don't even bother.

I'm guessing they may do away with the PI challenge in the offseason.

In comment 14627507 bw in dc said:

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Wilson is clearly the darling of the NFL/FO; and has morphed into the Michael Jordan of the NFL with referees.

Just one of many little reasons why I hate him.

In comment 14627471 FatMan in Charlotte said:

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on the flipside, Seattle actually could be 2-4 right now if they didn't get preferential calls. Russell Wilson has drawn 6 personal fouls this year and one today was really perplexing. Looked like he was going to be called for intentional grounding which would have made it 3rd and really long, but instead, they huddled for a couple of minutes and called roughing. Add the ridiculous call against Matthews in the Rams game and a terrible call on the Steelers and the Seahawks could easily have lost those games. The officiating isn't just terrible, it is having a tangible impact on the season.

The crazy thing is if Seattle ever lucked out with home field advantage whether for the division or the conference, it's a huge deal, unlike say Kansas City which despite their comparable SPL levels ain't the same type of HFA.

Records count, especially for certain teams. Minnesota is another tough place to play.

you like to be a Lions fan?

- The Calvin Johnson play
- The pass interference that was flagged and then picked up against the Cowboys that forced a punt instead of a first down in FG range in the playoff game
- The Golden Tate non-TD review where a 10 second runoff ended the game
- Last night's debacle where the ref got not one, but two calls wrong, directly allowing the Packers to win

I'll just remind the board since you'll hear many say the opposite - the refs do impact games and sometimes directly affect the outcome.

In comment 14628099 Jimmy Googs said:

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But I guess since Dallas gets all the calls anyway he should have expected some love with a challenge? No wait...Dak isn't getting roughing the passer calls in his favor since Cam Newton is out. Wait again, there were 6 calls on their final touchdown drive. Whoops, 2 of them were against the Jets.

The Dallas calls gave them 1st downs vs the Jets calls that merely backed the Cowboys up, until, yep holding/contact 1st down....It was bad officiating but very suspect that every time the Jets made a play, oops penalty to negate the play.

This may be my complete disdain for the Eagles shining through but I’m convinced the league changed the definition of a catch in the Philly/Pats SB in 2018. The Clement and Ertz TDs would have been ruled non-catches during that season...remember the Jesse James controversy against the Pats. But suddenly Al Riveron’s crew were operating under a different set of rules.

Now, I think all of these examples were catches in the eyes of common sense, but by the letter of the ridiculous rules that year, those were very likely not catches.

is whether (1) the officiating is really worse now, or (2) it was always this bad but now we have more replays and 24/7 twitter/news cycle to constantly remind us how bad it is?

is now the WWF.

The Giants mostly stink and maybe that's an excuse but it's hard to stay invested. Last night was a joke. Has to be.

In comment 14629156 section125 said:

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In comment 14628099 Jimmy Googs said: Quote: But I guess since Dallas gets all the calls anyway he should have expected some love with a challenge? No wait...Dak isn't getting roughing the passer calls in his favor since Cam Newton is out. Wait again, there were 6 calls on their final touchdown drive. Whoops, 2 of them were against the Jets. The Dallas calls gave them 1st downs vs the Jets calls that merely backed the Cowboys up, until, yep holding/contact 1st down....It was bad officiating but very suspect that every time the Jets made a play, oops penalty to negate the play.

Merely backed them up? What exactly did you want the refs to enforce...kill their first born child?

Again, if you think the refs purposely favored the Cowboys someway I don't know how you compute that they flagged them 9 times versus the Jets 8, and took away a touchdown scored by Witten.

point. The Ertz catch especially was not a catch under regular season rules.

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I'll just remind the board since you'll hear many say the opposite - the refs do impact games and sometimes directly affect the outcome.

Will let others speak for themselves but this is pretty much indisputable. Different though from outcries that the refs impact games with a predetermined cause to purposely and consistently favor a certain team/player.

In comment 14629215 Jimmy Googs said:

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In comment 14629156 section125 said: Quote: In comment 14628099 Jimmy Googs said: Quote: But I guess since Dallas gets all the calls anyway he should have expected some love with a challenge? No wait...Dak isn't getting roughing the passer calls in his favor since Cam Newton is out. Wait again, there were 6 calls on their final touchdown drive. Whoops, 2 of them were against the Jets. The Dallas calls gave them 1st downs vs the Jets calls that merely backed the Cowboys up, until, yep holding/contact 1st down....It was bad officiating but very suspect that every time the Jets made a play, oops penalty to negate the play. Merely backed them up? What exactly did you want the refs to enforce...kill their first born child? Again, if you think the refs purposely favored the Cowboys someway I don't know how you compute that they flagged them 9 times versus the Jets 8, and took away a touchdown scored by Witten.

I'm really not arguing preferential treatment exclusively but more bad officiating with a jaundiced eye.
What part of a 10 yard penalty vs giving a 1st down don't you get? The Cowboys kept getting 1st downs on questionable holding/illegal contact or very questionable PIs.
And again, it is not how many penalties, it is when they were called. Yeah the Jets got 8, but 4 on the last drive. The Cowboys got 2 on the last drive, almost immediately followed by a call that gave them a 1st down.

In comment 14629205 Metnut said:

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is whether (1) the officiating is really worse now, or (2) it was always this bad but now we have more replays and 24/7 twitter/news cycle to constantly remind us how bad it is?

The biggest factor, to me, is that the rules used to be simpler and easier to apply. They keep monkeying with the rules and making them more complex, and that's the driving factor behind a lot of terrible calls and delays.

And now you think the refs, in the moments they have to determine a penalty or not, are factoring in other circumstances like timing within the game and making other bad calls to offset previously applied bad calls?

Lack of consistency is one of the biggest gripes of the current officiating. So is it your view that consistency should be sacrificed based on more important timing within the game?

but could be so much better if the rules were easier to interpret.

IMO, the league has responded to public outcry by counseling the refs on what to call and when. This is what causes trouble, and is the reason I left the NBA as a fan years ago. League stopped calling the double-dribble on what was once called "palming" because it was so common and an integral part of certain superstars' games. Next thing you know, they aren't calling charging as often. Next thing you know, they aren't calling traveling, giving some superstars but only in some situations the opportunity to take 1-2 extra steps making contact before dunking because the fans like it. Meanwhile, they still occasionally call charging or traveling, mostly on bench players or early in games. Could end up being the reason why I end up leaving the NFL if this trend continues.

The rules are the rules. The league should allow the refs to call rules as they are written. If they don't like the outcomes, rewrite the rules. The instructions given to ignore certain violations leads to calling the rules situationally.

that just from a decade ago, flags are thrown an average of 4.3 more times per game. Add that up over a season and it means more than 1,000 calls are being made.

Think about just on the defensive side of the ball where you can get called for hands to the face, illegal contact, defensive holding or PI on passing plays and when they are making some of the call based on minimal or no contact - it's easy to see why there is a rise.

Bad calls have always existed, but as players get stronger and faster, refs get older and slower, and we have high-def to show us all of the inaccuracies, the NFL should be using technology when possible - by adopting the NCAA system. They should also pare back the rule book too.

In comment 14629236 Jimmy Googs said:

Quote:

And now you think the refs, in the moments they have to determine a penalty or not, are factoring in other circumstances like timing within the game and making other bad calls to offset previously applied bad calls? Lack of consistency is one of the biggest gripes of the current officiating. So is it your view that consistency should be sacrificed based on more important timing within the game?

You think it is difficult to make a questionable call go the way you want? There is holding on every play, why isn't called every play? There is PI or illegal contact every play, why isn't it called every play? An unscrupulous official or officials could easily dictate the calls whenever he needed to. I don't think they do this consciously at all. This is hypothetical because I do not think they make calls to help one time vs another.

However, and I have brought this up before, Bill Parcells called out the league after the Giants OT Doug Van Horn(IIRC) kept getting holding calls game after game. Van Horn had a rep for holding earlier in his career and seemed to get called on plays that impacted drives an inordinate number of times. He was not doing anything different than any other player - just singled out for an earlier rep. Parcells was fined, but amazingly enough the calls against VanHorn dropped. It was pretty stark.

How many games have you seen that clutching a grabbing is let go until the end of the game?

I have no idea what your 2nd paragraph is saying, nor do I care.

I got it but what's the most important debate here...less flags or consistency in throwing them or don't impact games or do try to make the right call that should properly impact a game? Officiating needs to get better but these are not always results that are aligned.

My point (that you didn't care to follow) is you seem to suggest that the flags came out in unusual timing in the Jets - Cowboys game. Suggesting that the refs were absolutely inconsistent based on the flurry of activity at the end, and it somehow hurt the Jets more. Are you sure the Jets didn't get away with a whole lot earlier and it helped them, so now the refs were trying to "even things out"?

article which I posted in the game thread
Referees.. - ( New Window )

In comment 14629286 Jimmy Googs said:

Quote:

I got it but what's the most important debate here...less flags or consistency in throwing them or don't impact games or do try to make the right call that should properly impact a game? Officiating needs to get better but these are not always results that are aligned. My point (that you didn't care to follow) is you seem to suggest that the flags came out in unusual timing in the Jets - Cowboys game. Suggesting that the refs were absolutely inconsistent based on the flurry of activity at the end, and it somehow hurt the Jets more. Are you sure the Jets didn't get away with a whole lot earlier and it helped them, so now the refs were trying to "even things out"?

You are arguing to argue. It comes down to that officials are inconsistent. It is not a lazy argument that there is a penalty on every play. There are. But why choose to call it after a big play...etc. Why start calling what you haven't called all game on the last drive of the game? Not so hard to understand.

If you didn't think it was unusual that the Cowboys kept getting their drive extended on what were questionable calls, then there is no point in continuing and I won't after this. Did the refs do it on purpose, IDK. Did the Jets get away with it earlier and not called, IDK. I doubt both. But if they did not call a penalty earlier in the game, then they cannot start calling it at the end.

to spot a ball officiating games. How the fuck is that guy supposed to get down the sideline? They should be taking these guys that don't pan out in the NFL, do a little research on their background, and take the smart ones and make them refs and have their own school. Treat it like an honor and privilege. The NFL acts like everything about the brand is an honor and a privilege except for the refs. The NFL has way more than enough money to do this. They pay the NFL refs enough money that most these guys would jump at the opportunity.

In comment 14629367 section125 said:

Quote:

If you didn't think it was unusual that the Cowboys kept getting their drive extended on what were questionable calls, then there is no point in continuing and I won't after this. Did the refs do it on purpose, IDK.

this is all that was needed...

over missed holding calls. Now that they call everything, I see how "letting them play" made for a better product. I wish they'd go back to simplifying the rule book.

In comment 14629367 section125 said:

Quote:

If you didn't think it was unusual that the Cowboys kept getting their drive extended on what were questionable calls, then there is no point in continuing and I won't after this. Did the refs do it on purpose, IDK. Did the Jets get away with it earlier and not called, IDK. I doubt both. But if they did not call a penalty earlier in the game, then they cannot start calling it at the end.

I'm not sure the penalties "extended" that drive. And here's what I mean by that.

If the calls came on third or forth down than I would agree the drives got extended. Those are the more crucial downs, right?

But I believe - and keep my honest - that nearly every flag on that hideous last drive was on first down, or maybe one on second.

So Dallas would have had 2 or 3 more cracks to get another first down/chance to score. And there was considerable time left on the clock.

Does that make sense?

In comment 14629486 bw in dc said:

Quote:

In comment 14629367 section125 said: Quote: If you didn't think it was unusual that the Cowboys kept getting their drive extended on what were questionable calls, then there is no point in continuing and I won't after this. Did the refs do it on purpose, IDK. Did the Jets get away with it earlier and not called, IDK. I doubt both. But if they did not call a penalty earlier in the game, then they cannot start calling it at the end. I'm not sure the penalties "extended" that drive. And here's what I mean by that. If the calls came on third or forth down than I would agree the drives got extended. Those are the more crucial downs, right? But I believe - and keep my honest - that nearly every flag on that hideous last drive was on first down, or maybe one on second. So Dallas would have had 2 or 3 more cracks to get another first down/chance to score. And there was considerable time left on the clock. Does that make sense?

Of course it does and I don't know what down they were called. So on that aspect you might be correct. But it does not matter though, it still gave them at least one extra down and instead of a 1st and 20(iirc on a couple of penalties), now it is a 1st and 10, 5 yards closer. So it did extend the drive or at least got them closer to where they were before the call. And wasn't one of the Jets penalties on a 4th down that was not converted?? I'm just guessing on that one, 3rd or 4th down.

And the yellow flags are the Whammy's

So in last night's game Detroit S Tracy Walker got flagged for unnecessary roughness on Geronimo Allison.

Walker and Allison were simultaneously diving to make a play on the ball and just by the nature of the moment, Walker's helmet hit Allison's. And Allison took a severe head shot.

The call has been criticized, and I believe rightfully so, because it was really incidental contact. In fact, challenge anyone to say Walker looked to be intentionally trying to hit Allison.

But here is what I found interesting. After the game, referee Clete Blackman was asked about the play and said this:

Quote:

"That's a good question, but the reality is, it is strict liability for a defensive player," Blakeman said. "In this case, he may be going for the ball and not intending to hit the helmet, but when there's helmet contact, it is a foul in that situation." Blakeman said even if Walker had intercepted the pass, he still would have been flagged.

Basically a defensive player is presumed guilty on ANY helmet contact where the offensive player takes the hit. Does anyone else find that preposterous???

In comment 14629594 bw in dc said:

Quote:

So in last night's game Detroit S Tracy Walker got flagged for unnecessary roughness on Geronimo Allison. Walker and Allison were simultaneously diving to make a play on the ball and just by the nature of the moment, Walker's helmet hit Allison's. And Allison took a severe head shot. The call has been criticized, and I believe rightfully so, because it was really incidental contact. In fact, challenge anyone to say Walker looked to be intentionally trying to hit Allison. But here is what I found interesting. After the game, referee Clete Blackman was asked about the play and said this: Quote: "That's a good question, but the reality is, it is strict liability for a defensive player," Blakeman said. "In this case, he may be going for the ball and not intending to hit the helmet, but when there's helmet contact, it is a foul in that situation." Blakeman said even if Walker had intercepted the pass, he still would have been flagged. Basically a defensive player is presumed guilty on ANY helmet contact where the offensive player takes the hit. Does anyone else find that preposterous???

As someone posted in another thread, wasn't Landon Collins flagged for something similar last year?

And while I agree it sounds ridiculous at face value, do you really want officials trying to judge "intent"?

In comment 14629594 bw in dc said:

Quote:

So in last night's game Detroit S Tracy Walker got flagged for unnecessary roughness on Geronimo Allison. Walker and Allison were simultaneously diving to make a play on the ball and just by the nature of the moment, Walker's helmet hit Allison's. And Allison took a severe head shot. The call has been criticized, and I believe rightfully so, because it was really incidental contact. In fact, challenge anyone to say Walker looked to be intentionally trying to hit Allison. But here is what I found interesting. After the game, referee Clete Blackman was asked about the play and said this: Quote: "That's a good question, but the reality is, it is strict liability for a defensive player," Blakeman said. "In this case, he may be going for the ball and not intending to hit the helmet, but when there's helmet contact, it is a foul in that situation." Blakeman said even if Walker had intercepted the pass, he still would have been flagged. Basically a defensive player is presumed guilty on ANY helmet contact where the offensive player takes the hit. Does anyone else find that preposterous???

Like I said, they did it to Collins (IIRC) two years ago. But again it goes back to another thing I said - once the ball is in the air, both offense and defense have equal right to it - that is the rule. For a referee to say that the safety did not have a right to the ball is completely false and he should be called on the carpet. The safety had as much right to dive at that ball as did the WR.
You wonder why there is a problem with officiating - here is a perfect example.

In comment 14629598 giants#1 said:

Quote:

As someone posted in another thread, wasn't Landon Collins flagged for something similar last year? And while I agree it sounds ridiculous at face value, do you really want officials trying to judge "intent"?

Yes, I do. Because there are times when it's easy to make the call. And last night was a perfect example. Walker clearly has his arms and hands in a position to make a catch. He can't be trying to catch a ball and make an intentional helmet to helmet hit at the same time. So a quick review of that play by any rationally thinking human being would result in changing the call.

was flagged for it during the Carolina game on a play WHERE HE INTERCEPTED THE BALL!!! Would have been the Giants ball around the Carolina's 20 yard line.

They called a hit on a defenseless receiver while all he was doing was diving to make a play.

Absolute bullshit.

Eliminate instant replay and I think the refereeing will improve. It will never be perfect, but seeking perfection is what put the NFL in this mess to begin with.

Refereeing football looks like a really, really hard job. It's only made more difficult when refs have replay looking over their shoulder. I think a big part of the problem is that fans and media overreact to missed calls, which then results in rules changes and tweaks to how the game is officiated.

We all need to accept that the refs aren't going to get it right all of the time; that's the first step in giving them more leeway to interpret a play in real time AND allow them the power to do their jobs better.

The other alternative, in my view, is to go to a fully automated system with no human officials actually on the field making calls. Is the technology there yet?

A retired referee Bernie Kukar who was generally despised here on BBI.
Link - ( New Window )

This isn't an officiating pronlem at it's core, it's a leadership problem.

It's been evident for 15 years.

and picking my survivor pool games too.

Wouldn't mind if the Conspiracy Theorists on this thread gave me their views on which teams (or players) will undoubtedly get favoritism from the refs on Sunday.

I will check in from time to time today for that foresight...