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When Did You Want Reese Fired?

Samiam : 10/13/2019 9:07 pm
I have to say I was late to the party. For me, when I watched the draft where the Giants took Engram instead of Ramzyk or Cam Robinson. I remember thinking he was a goner unless he pulled a rabbit out of the hat which he didnít and all we drafted to play OL was Biz who sucked. Admittedly, the Giants needed a TE but there were good TEs who would have been available as late as the 5th round. Our OL was as close to pathetic as there could be and we draft a TE who could not block. That was it for me.

When did you want Reese fired?
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RE: David Wilson  
DavidinBMNY : 10/13/2019 9:37 pm : link
In comment 14627290 bradshaw44 said:
Quote:
When it was clear we needed OL.
💯 percent right.
I agree that he should have gone when TC went  
jcn56 : 10/13/2019 9:39 pm : link
but I didn't see it that way at the time. GMs tend to last longer than coaches, and I thought that TC had just run his course - the duration of his run combined with his age contributed to a decline.

Turns out, Reese had the same problem, minus his age - it was time for him to go.
After the  
Reb8thVA : 10/13/2019 9:41 pm : link
2013 season.
When they fired the wrong guy  
Bill in Del : 10/13/2019 9:43 pm : link
Reese should of went first. Which makes me wonder if they would of brought in a GM that knew what he was doing. Where would the Giants be today with coughlin?

RE: I cant remember exactly when  
LauderdaleMatty : 10/13/2019 9:44 pm : link
In comment 14627269 j_rud said:
Quote:
but I was part of the rather large section of this board that wanted him gone when tbey moved on from Coughlin.


This. Mara was a moron for keeping him. Easily As inexcusable a decision as hiring McAdoo. Made no sense firing the coach and keep the guy who was horrific draft after draft
I certainly thought at the time that they both needed to go.  
Mad Mike : 10/13/2019 9:44 pm : link
I didn't understand how anyone could look at that team and think the roster hadn't become seriously flawed.
...  
christian : 10/13/2019 9:46 pm : link
The "fix" was abandoning fiscal responsibility in exchange for one very good defensive season. That was one of Mara's silliest mistakes.
I didn't have a problem with the Snacks or JJ signings  
Zeke's Alibi : 10/13/2019 10:01 pm : link
but the Vernon signing was ridiculous. We pretty much wrote him a blank check for a dude that had 7.5 sacks. They gave him a market setting contract for potential. This is exactly why we should have fired him along with TC. Instead we had a GM who felt the heat and was going to do anything to make sure he made the playoffs the next season.
When they pushed out Coughlin  
montanagiant : 10/13/2019 10:10 pm : link
As well as taking Ross with him.
Forcing Coughlin to replace Gilbride  
widmerseyebrow : 10/13/2019 10:17 pm : link
To me that was the start of the "it's the coaching, not the players" blame shift and the beginning of the end.

If you're going to tell your head coach who his assistants can be, then just move on from the whole staff. By the time they sent Coughlin packing it was plain as day that the roster was in complete shambles.
the moment he drafted Flowers  
huygens20 : 10/13/2019 10:27 pm : link
.

I knew he would bust.


Flowers' tape in college was just mediocre
When Coughlin was fired  
Jay on the Island : 10/13/2019 10:28 pm : link
It made no sense to keep Reese.
RE: Forcing Coughlin to replace Gilbride  
jcn56 : 10/13/2019 10:42 pm : link
In comment 14627436 widmerseyebrow said:
Quote:
To me that was the start of the "it's the coaching, not the players" blame shift and the beginning of the end.

If you're going to tell your head coach who his assistants can be, then just move on from the whole staff. By the time they sent Coughlin packing it was plain as day that the roster was in complete shambles.


If that were the case, wouldn't it be when Coughlin let Hufnagel and Tim Lewis go?
I donít recall when exactly  
MtDizzle : 10/13/2019 10:44 pm : link
But all I know is this franchise should have moved on from Reese, TC and Eli all at once. They took half measures and itís cost us the last 5 years.
After 2015  
sb from NYT Forum : 10/13/2019 10:56 pm : link
Stupid to fire Coughlin but keep him.
He should have never been hired as a GM in the first place.  
TMS : 10/13/2019 10:57 pm : link
Accoursi pushed that because he hated Coughlin. Thats was his revenge , Reese was a second rate scout way over his head his whole tenure. Then he brought in the arrogant moron Ross and here we are. MO.
RE: He should have never been hired as a GM in the first place.  
BigBlueDownTheShore : 10/13/2019 11:01 pm : link
In comment 14627564 TMS said:
Quote:
Accoursi pushed that because he hated Coughlin. Thats was his revenge , Reese was a second rate scout way over his head his whole tenure. Then he brought in the arrogant moron Ross and here we are. MO.


Yeah ok helped us win 2 Super Bowls and he was in over his head. There are many many GMS that canít say that. Plus he worked the giants for 20íyears. We used to blow every 1st round pick we ever had. People forget how bad our drafting was under Accorsi in the first 2 rounds.

So stop shitting on the man. Heís gone and he helped us reach the promise land twice. Who cares at this point.
I really..  
FatMan in Charlotte : 10/13/2019 11:08 pm : link
believe Ross was the problem.

Reese and Coughlin were more of a victim of circumstance and timing. But when Coughlin was fired, it was the perfect time to change both and start fresh.
I never liked Reese and always thought...  
EricJ : 10/13/2019 11:15 pm : link
he was a conservative and safe choice.
...  
christian : 10/13/2019 11:33 pm : link
The years Reese was the Director or Player Personnel, the Giants dramatically improved their drafting.

The drafts from 2004-2007 were very, very good drafts. The overall management of the team was very good from 2007-2012.

Some guys are good managing good rosters, not rebuilding. There are plenty of GMs who have never gotten over the hump with a good roster, and then promptly blow it.

Reese was a big part of crafting and then executing a core that was fantastic from 2005-2012. Six playoff appearances, zero losing seasons, 2 championships.
RE: David Wilson  
Paulie Walnuts : 10/14/2019 12:41 am : link
In comment 14627290 bradshaw44 said:
Quote:
When it was clear we needed OL.

THIS
Ross was really like Artie Toscano in "Casino"  
Paulie Walnuts : 10/14/2019 12:45 am : link
He sunk the whole world
When Coughlin  
section125 : 10/14/2019 1:23 am : link
was let go...
The last straw was the whole Eli Apple mess  
Rjanyg : 10/14/2019 7:51 am : link
His loose lips let everyone know he wanted Floyd with Conklin as his back up then Tennessee takes Conklin at 8, Chicago moves up in front of us to get Floyd and he selects Apple. I was furious.

Reese was dead to me after that.
When we put James Brewer in his first game  
Jimmy Googs : 10/14/2019 7:53 am : link
and Reese didn't resign in shame...
apple sealed the deal  
Dankbeerman : 10/14/2019 8:03 am : link
but the whole David Bass to fix the oline and repeated drafting of scrub OL and LB guys in the 3-5 range made me consider it every april.
I would have fired him  
Coach Red Beaulieu : 10/14/2019 8:38 am : link
Before scapegoat Gilbride. Or at the very least he should have been cleaning house in the FO at the same time, that would have made him all right in my book.

The guy gave us peak Manning and Warren Moon ffs.
RE: He should have never been hired as a GM in the first place.  
Coach Red Beaulieu : 10/14/2019 8:45 am : link
In comment 14627564 TMS said:
Quote:
Accoursi pushed that because he hated Coughlin. Thats was his revenge , Reese was a second rate scout way over his head his whole tenure. Then he brought in the arrogant moron Ross and here we are. MO.

He's not arrogant, he's insolent :D Why did we hire him in the first place??
When he brought back Flowers  
Daniel in Kentucky : 10/14/2019 8:52 am : link
after a horrific year.

Say what you want about Gettleman but he isnít afraid to course correct after making a mistake. See OBJ, Hart, Flowers, etc...
RE: ...  
ColHowPepper : 10/14/2019 9:05 am : link
In comment 14627281 christian said:
Quote:
When Mara out together the Coughlin retirement charade and then told Reese fix it or else.

That should have been a clean sweep.
This! In spades, but actually I was all in for him out the year before. It was clear.
RE: I really..  
Jay on the Island : 10/14/2019 9:13 am : link
In comment 14627588 FatMan in Charlotte said:
Quote:
believe Ross was the problem.

Reese and Coughlin were more of a victim of circumstance and timing. But when Coughlin was fired, it was the perfect time to change both and start fresh.

I agree. If the Giants had never hired Ross there is a good chance that Reese would probably still be the GM.

At the same time Reese deserved to be let go because he kept Ross for years after it was clear that he was doing an awful job as the head of scouting. Why didn't he make a change sooner? Was it because he genuinely believed that Ross wasn't to blame or did he keep him because they were close friends?
When  
Andrew in Austin : 10/14/2019 9:43 am : link
it became clear he wouldn't part from Marc Ross. That guy wasn't only terrible at his job, he came across as a smug butthead.

Look, Reese won the 2 superbowls, but he let the OL deteriorate - not because of lack of investment, but in picking the wrong players. That was on Ross.

We also got to a point where I generally disliked the players on the team - they came across poorly. We do seem to have higher character / team first players now. Hopefully they can win some games . . .
One  
Andrew in Austin : 10/14/2019 9:46 am : link
thing on the Vernon pick. It seemed like he was the only edge rusher available that year. And we went and broke the bank for him for middling results.

I feel that Nate Solder was (is) that for Gettlemen. Only real LT available, we broke the bank for him, and he has been struggling to make a positive impact.

Goes to show how important it is to hit on your draft picks. You might be left with dog food in FA.
Every time I looked at drafthistory.com  
Racer : 10/14/2019 10:47 am : link
and looked at his track record.

Actually, the moment I really thought he was over his head was when, in the wake of the new CBA being signed, he panicked and signed Will Beatty to a new contract at the very beginning of free agency. It was an above market rate for a mediocre player, and the first major signing at that position. It said to me he had no clue about evaluating his own guys or how to manage a roster.
I wanted him out instead of Coughlin  
Don in DC : 10/14/2019 10:58 am : link
after the 2015 season.
RE: RE: Forcing Coughlin to replace Gilbride  
widmerseyebrow : 10/14/2019 10:58 am : link
In comment 14627510 jcn56 said:
Quote:
If that were the case, wouldn't it be when Coughlin let Hufnagel and Tim Lewis go?


Both of those guys were gone before the Giants started winning Super Bowls. On what merit should they have been kept in place?
Easy  
aimrocky : 10/14/2019 11:05 am : link
as many said, when Coughlin was scapegoated. It didn't make any sense to remove one and not the other. It just resulted in more wasted years.
RE: 2 moments stick out  
Giantophile : 10/14/2019 11:06 am : link
In comment 14627304 Tom in NY said:
Quote:
1. When it was clear that the OL picks of Flowers, Pugh, and Westburg were not working out.

2. They should have sent Reese packing at the same time they let go of Coughlin....Reese really let TC, and frankly Eli, down during the 2010-2015 time frame.


Westburg....the portmanteua no one asked for
When Couglin  
lax counsel : 10/14/2019 11:30 am : link
Hand was forced to resign. The whole organization was mired in a deep downward spiral at that and has yet to recover.
I thought he and TC should have been shown the door together  
Torrag : 10/14/2019 11:39 am : link
They were equally responsible for what had transpired.
They scape-goated Coughlin  
David B. : 10/14/2019 12:27 pm : link
at the point in time that they should have been firing Reese and Ross. TC took the fall because the HC always does. But a new GM would have wanted his own HC anyway.
2012 - I was one of the early ones who wanted him gone.  
Red Dog : 10/14/2019 12:58 pm : link
By 2012 it was clear to me that Reese (and Ross) had to go, and the sooner the better.

Reese's philosophy of building from the outside in instead of inside out was going to fail miserably for two obvious reasons. One is that football is a game that is played in a confined area during a finite amount of time, so power is very important. There is no better example of this than trouble scoring TDs in the red zone, something that has bedeviled the GIANTS for many seasons now.

More specifically, the OL was clearly running on fumes and there was no serious effort to replace the players who were obviously done. They were trying to upgrade it with lower round draft choices and free agents. And although you can find players this way, you can't totally rely on it, plus the GIANTS were not having much luck at it at that time either.

This was combined with his employment for five years already of Marc Ross as his key draft assistant. Ross had flopped in personnel jobs with both Buffalo and Philly, both miserable teams when he was with them. And there were quiet rumors that Ross was lazy, too, something that you cannot afford to be in that kind of a job.

There was also an undertow of feeling that Reese / Ross were not necessarily drafting the right guys in terms of scheme fit (Sintim and Beckum for instance), a trend that continued.

And then there was the Safety disaster in 2009 when despite clear warnings from coaches, Reese failed to draft or otherwise acquire any Safety help while completely wasting the last three picks that season on a QB and two corners who never made the team. If you remember, they were signing anybody they could find off the street to play Safety that season.

And speaking of wasting picks, Reese / Ross had already wasted two third day picks on QBs (Woodson and Bomar), something that I am greatly opposed to because the chances of hitting on a 3rd day QB pick are about like the chances of hitting the Irish Sweepstakes. That's not to mention that they already had Eli in his prime. They had many more important needs but these bums were fishing where there isn't much chance of catching anything good.

So in summary, by 2012 it was obvious to me that Reese's philosophy of team building was flawed, that he had made a terrible selection for his most important personnel man, that he was wasting precious draft picks, and that he was not necessarily on the same page as the coaches and was ignoring serious team needs.

This all added up to one thing - Reese (and Ross) needed to go. It was five more years and another coach before Mara figured it out and took the action that he should have taken at the end of the 2012 season.
RE: apple sealed the deal  
japanhead : 10/14/2019 1:59 pm : link
In comment 14627915 Dankbeerman said:
Quote:
but the whole David Bass to fix the oline and repeated drafting of scrub OL and LB guys in the 3-5 range made me consider it every april.


the giants won a superbowl with david baas at center. sure, he couldn't stay healthy after that, but of all the things to shit on reese about, i don't think this is it. he also signed canty and boley that year.
RE: 2012 - I was one of the early ones who wanted him gone.  
Percy : 10/14/2019 2:11 pm : link
In comment 14628446 Red Dog said:
Quote:
By 2012 it was clear to me that Reese (and Ross) had to go, and the sooner the better.

Reese's philosophy of building from the outside in instead of inside out was going to fail miserably for two obvious reasons. One is that football is a game that is played in a confined area during a finite amount of time, so power is very important. There is no better example of this than trouble scoring TDs in the red zone, something that has bedeviled the GIANTS for many seasons now.

More specifically, the OL was clearly running on fumes and there was no serious effort to replace the players who were obviously done. They were trying to upgrade it with lower round draft choices and free agents. And although you can find players this way, you can't totally rely on it, plus the GIANTS were not having much luck at it at that time either.

This was combined with his employment for five years already of Marc Ross as his key draft assistant. Ross had flopped in personnel jobs with both Buffalo and Philly, both miserable teams when he was with them. And there were quiet rumors that Ross was lazy, too, something that you cannot afford to be in that kind of a job.

There was also an undertow of feeling that Reese / Ross were not necessarily drafting the right guys in terms of scheme fit (Sintim and Beckum for instance), a trend that continued.

And then there was the Safety disaster in 2009 when despite clear warnings from coaches, Reese failed to draft or otherwise acquire any Safety help while completely wasting the last three picks that season on a QB and two corners who never made the team. If you remember, they were signing anybody they could find off the street to play Safety that season.

And speaking of wasting picks, Reese / Ross had already wasted two third day picks on QBs (Woodson and Bomar), something that I am greatly opposed to because the chances of hitting on a 3rd day QB pick are about like the chances of hitting the Irish Sweepstakes. That's not to mention that they already had Eli in his prime. They had many more important needs but these bums were fishing where there isn't much chance of catching anything good.

So in summary, by 2012 it was obvious to me that Reese's philosophy of team building was flawed, that he had made a terrible selection for his most important personnel man, that he was wasting precious draft picks, and that he was not necessarily on the same page as the coaches and was ignoring serious team needs.

This all added up to one thing - Reese (and Ross) needed to go. It was five more years and another coach before Mara figured it out and took the action that he should have taken at the end of the 2012 season.


Memory dims, but I had had it with Reece and TC by 2013. Loathed what was happening to the team,. Wanted Mara to sell it to someone who knew something about football, as I recall. Still do.
With TC  
Scyber : 10/14/2019 2:32 pm : link
Honestly I would have preferred Reese got fired instead of TC that year. So many of the problems with those teams was talent that I didn't understand how Reese avoiding getting fired that year.
2015  
Lines of Scrimmage : 10/14/2019 3:43 pm : link
He should have went with TC. Overall, he probably helped select many very good players in his 20 years. Seemed particularly good at WR, DL, and some defensive backfield.

I thought four things really hurt him.

1. He became too arrogant and defensive.

2. He fell in love with the Arcosi model of OL....just draft a LT high and fill in the rest.

3. I think he along with TC help on the championship corps too long particularly on the OL.

4. Marc Ross. That guy seemed to change how JR thought about the game and drafting.

He did have a lot of bad breaks with career altering injuries. The issue was if you stay strong on the lines you can at least be competitive and who knows what happens in the playoffs.
When Coughlin was fired  
Matt M. : 10/14/2019 3:52 pm : link
I agreed it was time. But, the owber proceeded to say the problem was personnel, yet retained the GM. Then the spending spree on D biught Reese 2 .ore seasons, while he continued to provixe a bottom of the league OL.
RE: I thought he and TC should have been shown the door together  
TD : 10/14/2019 8:22 pm : link
In comment 14628262 Torrag said:
Quote:
They were equally responsible for what had transpired.


This
RE: RE: RE: Forcing Coughlin to replace Gilbride  
jcn56 : 10/14/2019 8:28 pm : link
In comment 14628186 widmerseyebrow said:
Quote:
In comment 14627510 jcn56 said:


Quote:


If that were the case, wouldn't it be when Coughlin let Hufnagel and Tim Lewis go?



Both of those guys were gone before the Giants started winning Super Bowls. On what merit should they have been kept in place?


Well, you said this:

Quote:
To me that was the start of the "it's the coaching, not the players" blame shift and the beginning of the end.


That 'winning Super Bowls' didn't start until after Coughlin had to give up both his original OC and DC.

Now - not sure whether to his credit or detriment - but Coughlin wanted Gregg Williams as DC, Tim Lewis was a runner up.

Coughlin didn't exactly generate some killer coaching tree either, and as HC with two rings had plenty of say in personnel decisions. There's no way the Giants "scapegoat" TC by firing him and retain Reese if TC was just a willing bystander to all the personnel failures.

They worked together, and it worked OK at first, worked really well for awhile, and then fell apart. Reese should have gone when Coughlin did, but there's no way they didn't both earn their dismissal.
when they fired Coughlin  
islander1 : 10/15/2019 10:57 pm : link
since most of us felt the problems were really Reese's shit drafting.
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