I am fully drinking the Kool-Aid.
Gettleman's first two drafts have been very strong. While his free agency signings have not been nearly as meritorious, he has been dealing with a tiny budget and a roster with more holes than substance.
In 2018 he added multiple immediate contributors in Barkley (all-world talent), Hernandez (the best OL we have drafted in recent memory), Carter, Hill and McIntosh. All of these guys are getting significant playing time and, I would argue, out-playing their draft positions.
2019 was even better so far. After trading OBJ (which I maintain was addition by subtraction) for Peppers (immediate significant contributor) and 1st and 3rd round picks, he added Jones (future of the franchise at QB), Lawrence (immediate stud DT), Baker (coming on strong at CB after a rough start), Ximines (immediately productive contributor at EDGE), Connelly (was looking like the best inside LB we have had in the last few years before injury), and Darius Slayton (immediate significant contributor at WR).
He signed Markus Golden, who has turned out to be an incredible value signing at EDGE. He also traded Vernon (expensive injury prone underachiever) for Kevin Zeitler (one of the best OGs in the league). That's an outstanding value in return for a guy who frankly was not worth his contract.
That is a dramatic improvement in the overall talent level of this roster in two years, all while clearing a fuckton of cap space for 2020 and beyond.
If this team has another draft class in 2020 of similar quality to the classes of 2018 and 2019, and makes good use of the enormous amount of cap space it will have in 2020, the Giants can absolutely compete at a high level next year and for the next few years thereafter. The pieces are coming together.
The arrow is clearly pointing up for the first time since Accorsi retired. I am all in for Gettleman.
What say you?
TDS are not there but those can come in spurts for a guy like him.
He would be our leading receiver.
And we'd still be 2-4. See Cleveland.
When will fans understand that talent isn't everything?
Odell Beckham: 6 games, 29 receptions, 436 yards, 1 TD
Does that really look like a productive season from a superstar that has played in four more games?
TDS are not there but those can come in spurts for a guy like him.
He would be our leading receiver.
IF he stays healthy. That losing continues and we'll see how long he stays healthy
Odell Beckham: 6 games, 29 receptions, 436 yards, 1 TD
Does that really look like a productive season from a superstar that has played in four more games?
Maybe Odell should get on the juice!
Collins always gets a lot of tackles. He also gets burned in coverage...he's basically a glorified LB...which is why he wasn't worth keeping.
Keep trying.
The two of them are combining for nearly 180 million dollars in salary.
The two of them are combining for nearly 180 million dollars in salary.
And if they were still here, the same people would be complaining that Gettleman overpaid to keep them.
The two of them are combining for nearly 180 million dollars in salary.
And the Giants suck - but that doesn't stop people from saying there are some very good players here.
Apple has been flagged the 2nd most of any DB, is by far the Saints weakest defensive starter and Collins has been a disappointment.
It isn't like we let go of Pro Bowlers.
Giants still can’t cover anyone and the O isn’t exactly a juggernaut
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Cleveland sucks. Beckham makes no difference. Washington sucks, and Collins makes no difference.
The two of them are combining for nearly 180 million dollars in salary.
And the Giants suck - but that doesn't stop people from saying there are some very good players here.
Love how you didn't address the second part of the post though.
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and Apple are having productive seasons??
Apple has been flagged the 2nd most of any DB, is by far the Saints weakest defensive starter and Collins has been a disappointment.
It isn't like we let go of Pro Bowlers.
Apple had a big forced fumble in the win over Seattle. The Saints secondary has been playing better each week and Apple has been receiving praise for his play. Collins has been better than Peppers this year.
Collins has not been better than Peppers. Thats a flat out lie.
No, if the blame belongs anywhere - its with Mara. Gettleman came into a situation where, yeah there was talent - but there was also a lot of dysfunction. You can't win in the NFL unless everyone is on the same page. Ask ANY player who's been in the league for a while and they will tell you the same thing. People expecting this shit to get cleaned up in 2 years with no salary cap space are absolutely delusional. Not every decision he's made has worked out but overall, he's doing a good job.
add in a forced fumble against Minny and he's had an impact.
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Again was to counter this idea that Gettleman had absolute garbage to work with and needed to completely rebuild and start from scratch. He decided to make the trades and cuts to build the team in his image which is his prerogative as the new guy but if by next year this team is still not in the playoffs, then at some point the blame needs to stop going to Reese and start going his way.
No, if the blame belongs anywhere - its with Mara. Gettleman came into a situation where, yeah there was talent - but there was also a lot of dysfunction. You can't win in the NFL unless everyone is on the same page. Ask ANY player who's been in the league for a while and they will tell you the same thing. People expecting this shit to get cleaned up in 2 years with no salary cap space are absolutely delusional. Not every decision he's made has worked out but overall, he's doing a good job.
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In comment 14629794 Les in TO said:
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Again was to counter this idea that Gettleman had absolute garbage to work with and needed to completely rebuild and start from scratch. He decided to make the trades and cuts to build the team in his image which is his prerogative as the new guy but if by next year this team is still not in the playoffs, then at some point the blame needs to stop going to Reese and start going his way.
No, if the blame belongs anywhere - its with Mara. Gettleman came into a situation where, yeah there was talent - but there was also a lot of dysfunction. You can't win in the NFL unless everyone is on the same page. Ask ANY player who's been in the league for a while and they will tell you the same thing. People expecting this shit to get cleaned up in 2 years with no salary cap space are absolutely delusional. Not every decision he's made has worked out but overall, he's doing a good job.
a lot of the dysfunction stemmed from frustration with years of losing and weak leadership by the coaching staff. If Gettleman brought in someone who could do a better job managing the alpha personalities in the locker room the temperature could have been cooled. You aren’t going to have 52 choir boys on your roster and expect to be successful . Instead they selected a good Xs and Os mind who is not as good with handling stronger personalities.
1. That dysfunction had already been established before Gettleman got here.
2. No one said anything about needing "52 choir boys". If thats in response to my comment about everyone being on the same page, you better build a long bridge.
3. As for Shurmur, he is the one who vouched for Beckham and wanted to work with him when he got here. Beckham was already sick of being here before Shurmur got here and no one was going to change that.
Say what you want about Shurmur. I have my doubts about him as the future head coach...but his players love him. There's no denying that.
The two of them are combining for nearly 180 million dollars in salary.
I agree with you on both of these players, but you've taken umbrage when I've used the same reasoning in the past:
The Giants suck. Barkley makes no difference.
Barkley isn't a pain in the ass in the lockerroom, and Barkley has not been paid in his second contract for his services. He's still making a lot, but as far as his second contract is concerned, he is still "cost controlled". Also unlike the other two, he actually is producing at a level commiserate with his pay currently. Probably exceeding it to this point.
Barkley isn't a pain in the ass in the lockerroom, and Barkley has not been paid in his second contract for his services. He's still making a lot, but as far as his second contract is concerned, he is still "cost controlled". Also unlike the other two, he actually is producing at a level commiserate with his pay currently. Probably exceeding it to this point.
That's fair, and I agree that he's closer to producing to his cost than those guys.
But if we're concerned about cost/benefit ratios on players (and we should be), then that leads to the inevitable question of what to do with Barkley in the next couple years. The wealthiest RB contract (Elliott) sees a cap hit that maxes out at $16.5M. I don't think any RB, including Barkley, is worth anything close to that.
So what do we do with Barkley in a couple years?
The Giants may look like a completely different team in two to three years, hopefully for the better. We'll have to see how much of that is attributed to Barkley if so.
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In comment 14629763 Britt in VA said:
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Cleveland sucks. Beckham makes no difference. Washington sucks, and Collins makes no difference.
The two of them are combining for nearly 180 million dollars in salary.
And the Giants suck - but that doesn't stop people from saying there are some very good players here.
Love how you didn't address the second part of the post though.
You mean the part where Gettleman pays OBJ a large chunk of that money that's currently occupying cap space? I thought that part was obvious.
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Cleveland sucks. Beckham makes no difference. Washington sucks, and Collins makes no difference.
The two of them are combining for nearly 180 million dollars in salary.
I agree with you on both of these players, but you've taken umbrage when I've used the same reasoning in the past:
The Giants suck. Barkley makes no difference.
Such a bs take. I guess JJ Watt makes no difference since he hasn’t won much since entering the NFL. How much of a difference did mike Strahan make from 95-2005? How about all those talented DLs the jets drafted lately? Where the fruit from that? Leonard Williams doesn’t make a difference I take it?
Sony Michel was a first rounder. Most good running games, shit most good teams have invested big time capital in the rb position. It’s all right there for the world to see, including you. The rb position is important. It is not a fungible position no matter how much BS some of you post. It took the giants over a decade to find a running back.
The minute Dallas drafted Elliot their offense went from ok to good or even very good and this coincided with dam replacing romo. And make NO mistake, dak is NO romo.
If you’re gonna insist on something, give us facts.
That said, if the Jones kid is good, it's worth it.
That said , the ilbs and free safetieS next draft. As opposed to shiney objects, that will tell.
You don’t like paying anyone. Go look around the league at all the highest paid players no matter the position, “buyer’s remorse everywhere” as you put it. You HATE paying QBs. You hate paying RBs. You certainly hate paying WRs and if you don’t, you will shortly once that player inevitably gets hurt.
It’s all a gamble. Paying guys is a gamble. Not paying guys is a gamble.
Picking Barkley was less of a gamble because everything about him screamed stud.
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Go look at the list of highest paid RBs in the league - buyer's remorse everywhere. The smart football move is to use him as much as we can this year and next, then trade him. But as we've seen with this organization the smart football move isn't necessarily the only consideration.
You don’t like paying anyone. Go look around the league at all the highest paid players no matter the position, “buyer’s remorse everywhere” as you put it. You HATE paying QBs. You hate paying RBs. You certainly hate paying WRs and if you don’t, you will shortly once that player inevitably gets hurt.
It’s all a gamble. Paying guys is a gamble. Not paying guys is a gamble.
Picking Barkley was less of a gamble because everything about him screamed stud.
This is a sport characterized by change. Injuries, coaching changes, off-field incidents, rules changes, scheme changes...so much about winning and losing is determined by something other than talent.
Creating a sustainable winning team in the NFL isn't about the players - it's about the coaching and management. The head coach, not the quarterback, is the face of the franchise and the biggest determinant of wins and losses.
In this environment of constant change it makes sense to keep your finances fluid EVERY year...not just for "windows". The way you do that is by not committing to any particular player with franchise level money unless that player has an unusually high impact on wins and losses. Those players are very few and far between in the NFL...there might be 5-10 of them...and the Giants don't have a single one.
The surest recipe for sustainable competitiveness in the modern NFL has two ingredients:
1. A highly competent coaching staff and management structure
2. A fluid financial philosophy that allows for relatively easy changes to the roster and the medium to long term plan.
I want the Giants to spend every penny of their cap space. Every penny. I just don't want them to commit a big chunk of it to any one player.
Sony Michel was a first rounder. Most good running games, shit most good teams have invested big time capital in the rb position. It’s all right there for the world to see, including you. The rb position is important. It is not a fungible position no matter how much BS some of you post. It took the giants over a decade to find a running back.
Sony Michel was New England's second first round pick in the 2018 draft. With the higher pick, they took Isaiah Wynn. And it's New England. Which means they have the luxury to invest a first rounder in a RB. We didn't have that luxury. We struggle to win 5 games a year. New England struggles to lose 5 games in a year...
The question is, who do you actually pay? If you say investing in the trenches on both sides of the ball, I agree that is smart. However, if you don't have any talent at any of the skills positions, what does it matter?
And then bring in the next widget... ;)
The question is, who do you actually pay? If you say investing in the trenches on both sides of the ball, I agree that is smart. However, if you don't have any talent at any of the skills positions, what does it matter?
There are a couple examples on our team. The Golden and Remmers signings have worked out. They are playing a lot of downs, and Golden in particular is earning a payday elsewhere that's going to net us a comp pick. That's the model. Sign FAs to prove it deals that earn them a contract on another team.
If you look at Spotrac, there were probably two or three dozen free agents that signed these types of contracts around the NFL. These are the types of guys we should be signing to fill in the gap left by our draft picks.
Take that approach for there or four years and you'll see to things happen:
- Our drafts will improve
- Our salary cap will improve, allowing us to be able to pay elite money to an elite player of the opportunity arises
And then bring in the next widget... ;)
its not a bad model...you just need a guy like Bill B to make it work
How does this model work out when you are consistently turning over the roster year over year with FA's on prove it deals and when they do go out and prove, you don't resign them.
I know you devalue the RB position, but if Barkley stays healthy until his rookie contract is up and keeps performing at a high level, that is not considered elite or him an elite player? You said above how you would run him to the ground and trade him before his contract is up.
In your opinion, who in the NFL right now is elite in your eyes and be worth elite money?
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Pay the lowest possible wages, coach the piss out the workers, and when they don't perform or act up, ship them the hell out!
And then bring in the next widget... ;)
its not a bad model...you just need a guy like Bill B to make it work
But BB has several luxuries:
-- He is a football savant.
-- He controls ALL of the football decisions.
-- He shops and cooks the groceries.
-- He has the most stabilized QB situation in NFL history.
Or you could eschew drafting an extraordinary talent at 2 because his position is fungible and you’re worried about the value in re-signing this player five years later. Crazyness.
- Our salary cap will improve, allowing us to be able to pay elite money to an elite player of the opportunity arises
This feels like projection. We've got nothing to go on so far that they have this kind of foresight with the cap. They've signed some headscratching and significant contracts.
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In comment 14630890 bw in dc said:
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Pay the lowest possible wages, coach the piss out the workers, and when they don't perform or act up, ship them the hell out!
And then bring in the next widget... ;)
its not a bad model...you just need a guy like Bill B to make it work
But BB has several luxuries:
-- He is a football savant.
-- He controls ALL of the football decisions.
-- He shops and cooks the groceries.
-- He has the most stabilized QB situation in NFL history.
I think we are saying the same thing. It take an extraordinary situation to pull this off
Ten Ton - I'm talking more about an ideal scenario rather than what this front office is actually doing. I don't think this front office is capable or even interested in putting together anything that's sustainable long term.
ron mexico & bw - I actually think that such a system is more forgiving of mistakes and doesn't necessarily require the person or people running it to possess anything like Belichick's genius. Look at the Giants now...Jonathan Stewart's completely flamed out as a signing, but the impact was small because his contract was small. On the flip side, Nate Solder isn't living up to his deal and the consequences are more severe. If we restrict FA signings to Stewart level of cost, we can make more of them with less risk. Some will bust, one or two may hit, but we'll be more able to pivot in real time to deal with the results. There's not much we can do about Solder until after next season...so that will have probably end up having been 3 years of underperformance from a significant contract. We're obviously not going to recreate what Belichick has going on, but there are pieces we can emulate that would be improvements over the status quo the Giants are currently operating under.
figgy - The sustainability comes from annually churning through your FAs, which avoids dead money and is more likely to create draft picks through the comp pick process. To go back to the Golden example, we're getting a great deal paying him $3.2M this season. If he keeps this up someone might pay him $10M+ over 3 or 4 years...not such a great deal. Instead of paying him that, we'd be better off letting him walk and collecting the comp pick. Repeat that process over a few years and we'll have more draft picks to build up the actual foundation of the team.
As for which players around the NFL I think are actually worth the elite money they're being (or will soon be) paid, there aren't many. Off the top of my head the conversation includes Mahomes, Wilson, Rodgers (maybe), Donald, Mack, Watson, Tyron Smith, Zack Martin, Quenton Nelson, Von Miller (maybe), Bobby Wagner, Luke Keuchly, Dont'a Hightower. A few of those guys are maybes, I'm probably missing a couple. But I'm not missing anyone on the Giants.
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You are always saying how you wouldn't pay this guy or that guy and that he would be "smart football".
The question is, who do you actually pay? If you say investing in the trenches on both sides of the ball, I agree that is smart. However, if you don't have any talent at any of the skills positions, what does it matter?
There are a couple examples on our team. The Golden and Remmers signings have worked out. They are playing a lot of downs, and Golden in particular is earning a payday elsewhere that's going to net us a comp pick. That's the model. Sign FAs to prove it deals that earn them a contract on another team.
If you look at Spotrac, there were probably two or three dozen free agents that signed these types of contracts around the NFL. These are the types of guys we should be signing to fill in the gap left by our draft picks.
Take that approach for there or four years and you'll see to things happen:
- Our drafts will improve
- Our salary cap will improve, allowing us to be able to pay elite money to an elite player of the opportunity arises
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7-15 so far with the Giants. Until they're winning games regularly I'm not giving any credit to anyone. I'm not saying they can't get there, but I'm certainly not "drinking the kool aid" yet and I don't want to give them half a decade before they I expect them to be actually winning game as opposed to just "hanging tough" and "playing hard" while losing.
Fassel won coach of the year his very first year and won the NFC East (1997).
Coughlin went 11-5 in his 2nd year with this team and from 2005-2011 proceeded to make the playoffs 5 of 7 years (including a year they went 10-6 and MISSED the playoffs).
I have no idea why people are so content to say "we have to be patient, of course we're going to lose the first 3-4 years of this regime, because this is a 'serious' and 'real' rebuild" or whatever.
Why are you comparing? What part of virtually complete roster turnover are you not getting? THAT takes time..
I'm simply saying that I'm not giving any credit to anyone whatsoever until there are a material number of Ws in the W/L column. That's all I'm saying. The reason I'm comparing is to remind Giants fans that we once had a high standard for this team and the results of NYG coaches, we expected results early in the past and we've gotten results early with previous coaches. I'm simply saying there's no reason why we should have to wait 4 years for a regime to be "competitive". Complete roster turnover is fine, but if DG is making the right decisions and the "new" roster is indeed talented and fit to Shurmur's liking as a coach, then we should see results in the form of actual WINS in the near future, not the distant future.