I am fully drinking the Kool-Aid.
Gettleman's first two drafts have been very strong. While his free agency signings have not been nearly as meritorious, he has been dealing with a tiny budget and a roster with more holes than substance.
In 2018 he added multiple immediate contributors in Barkley (all-world talent), Hernandez (the best OL we have drafted in recent memory), Carter, Hill and McIntosh. All of these guys are getting significant playing time and, I would argue, out-playing their draft positions.
2019 was even better so far. After trading OBJ (which I maintain was addition by subtraction) for Peppers (immediate significant contributor) and 1st and 3rd round picks, he added Jones (future of the franchise at QB), Lawrence (immediate stud DT), Baker (coming on strong at CB after a rough start), Ximines (immediately productive contributor at EDGE), Connelly (was looking like the best inside LB we have had in the last few years before injury), and Darius Slayton (immediate significant contributor at WR).
He signed Markus Golden, who has turned out to be an incredible value signing at EDGE. He also traded Vernon (expensive injury prone underachiever) for Kevin Zeitler (one of the best OGs in the league). That's an outstanding value in return for a guy who frankly was not worth his contract.
That is a dramatic improvement in the overall talent level of this roster in two years, all while clearing a fuckton of cap space for 2020 and beyond.
If this team has another draft class in 2020 of similar quality to the classes of 2018 and 2019, and makes good use of the enormous amount of cap space it will have in 2020, the Giants can absolutely compete at a high level next year and for the next few years thereafter. The pieces are coming together.
The arrow is clearly pointing up for the first time since Accorsi retired. I am all in for Gettleman.
What say you?
Shurmur was a questionable hire but that’s at least partially an owner decision, not just DG.
Bringing Eli back made very little sense from a cap standpoint, but at least that’s a short term mistake with some upside of Eli mentoring DJ.
Saquon is polarizing. He is a special talent but it’s the most fungible position in the sport, any number of players can come in and give you good solid production at running back. Not all-world production, but you don’t really need that. I like Saquon and he’s a great talent but it’s more of a question of resource allocation. If Darnold becomes a great player and Jones is average or worse it’s a catastrophic mistake. Jury is out.
Encouraging stuff from Lawrence, Hernandez, Ximines so far. The Beckham trade looks decent at the moment. The additions in the secondary are critical but too early to call it.
His free agent signings have been a mixed bag at best. We are paying Solder a ton of money for at best for average tackle play. When Barkley went down there was no attempt to put anyone behind Gallman to help out the rookie QB and Hilliman was a disaster. The jury is still out on whether Peppers was really a great get from the OBJ trade. Not sure why Bethea is here. Golden seems to have been a good signing so far.
I am much less sold on Shurmur. I get the sense he is just hanging on by his nails until things get bad enough to let him go. He doesn't feel like a long term solution.
But in his moves aimed at building long term value and talent, I think he has been spot on.
Ultimately DG will be judged on his HC hire and the QB he drafted. I'm worried about the first choice and optimistic about the second.
Next season they get out from under the shadow of the Reese debacle in terms of players they ditched and the cap ramifications of that. They'll have money to spend to augment the roster talent. Year 3 for DG's program will inform us all on how well he's been doing.
But yes I am believer that DG is better than the last General Manager the team had.
Whether I am believer he is a guy that can bring the NYG all the way back...just doesn't feel right to say yes.
4 Assists
1 Sack
Through 6 games
Base Salary for 2019: $15.25 Million
Had he stayed here, cap number would have been $19.25 Million. Glad he was traded
the team overall looks like we can be competitive in another 2 years.
Shortcomings: signing free agents; head coach selection.
So I think the team is headed in the right direction, but I think reaching Super Bowl caliber is questionable; because I'm not sure this is the head coach who can get the team to the promised land.
I don't think this is the coaching staff to lead us to contender level. That's a big decision on tap, and I hope if DG believes the same that he's decisive in making changes.
Not just viable alternatives, but guys we could actually sign. Remember, free agency is a two way street. Players must also WANT to sign here not only for the money but also for what this team has to offer.
When DG took this team over, I would be willing to bet that not many free agents wanted to play here. This franchise has been a disaster. Ever wonder why Whitworth did not sign here? We rarely know about the players any GM tried to sign but is unsuccessful...or why it did not work out.
I am fine with writing this year off as rebuilding but next year is year 3. If we don't start seeing W's on the board then no matter what BBI thinks of his drafts he should be on thin ice.
On the negative side the defense is still a work in progress along with the entire coaching staff. His FA moves have been mixed, but that's true of every team (including the Pats).
He has assembled most of the foundation that will determine his future already (Jones, Barkley, Dex, secondary) but his evaluations of the coaching staff and moves in offseason #3 will be just as pivotal. No excuses to not be a 9+ win team next year.
I think Jones Mania has deluded everyone into acknowledging or forgetting, this team has not won a lot of games this year just like last year. Has DJ proved he can play well against top defenses at this stage if ever? Is signing Tate for 20 mil supposed to make up for trading Odell for Peppers? Your rebuilding OK, send Eli home in the off season and retain some of your talent on D. He is obviously throwing a bunch of s--t against the wall and seeing if it sticks. He acquired a few good guys on D but come on - -this guy is ridiculous.
Drafting - picking 2nd and 6th overall certainly helped, but the depth of his drafts have been outstanding.
Owns mistakes - doesn't compound mistakes by giving guys numerous chances. For example, took a chance on Omameh and yet didn't hesitate to cut him halfway thru the season when it was clear he wasn't the answer (or even a stopgap).
Internal evaluations - you can argue he erred in extending Beckham to start, but it's understandable for a GM/HC to want to evaluate things from the inside when a talent is that good. I think they made the correct decision after 1 year to then trade him and got good value in return. Also, whether you like Peppers or not, letting Collins walk for $16M per was indisputably the correct decision. I'd put the Apple and Snacks trades as pluses in this column too.
Negatives
Free agency - hasn't had a ton of cap space and was all but forced to overpay for Solder due to the state of the OL, but outside of Golden, most of his low/mid level FAs have been disappointing (Stewart, Bethea, Martin, Omameh, etc).
As others have said, he needs another draft with 3+ starters and a strong free agency, which could be staying away from overpays (e.g. Solder, Vernon, etc) as much as anything.
I am fine with writing this year off as rebuilding but next year is year 3. If we don't start seeing W's on the board then no matter what BBI thinks of his drafts he should be on thin ice.
I think Hill's proven to be a solid starting DE in a 34 and Carter's shown enough to be valuable OLB depth at worse and a starting caliber OLB with upside at best.
The oddity is that he was probably a little better in Carolina at getting value from FA's and his drafts were OK. He's been pretty poor at FA here.
I don't think this is the coaching staff to lead us to contender level. That's a big decision on tap, and I hope if DG believes the same that he's decisive in making changes.
I agree. I've rewatched two games, the Cowboys game and the Pats game. The Cowboys game was tough to tell because Eli just refuses to pull the trigger down the field at this point. However, there was a lot not to like schematically in the Pats game. I don't have all the information, but some basic scheme shit that was leaving me scratching me head and I'm not talking about getting outschemed by BB. I'll give him a pass for not having an NFL RB for now. Add to that his questionable game management, he leaves me with a whole bunch of questions and I'm leaning further and further to cutting bait.
One good thing about DG is we know he isn't sentimental. PS is starting to feel like a hire that was brought in to set the ship straight aka bringing an adult into the room. Unless the Eagles finagle a trade for Ramsey there is no reason we shouldn't be in the hunt for the East crown in December with two games against the Eagles in the last five weeks. The Eagles have gotten old and Dallas looks like a rudderless ship right now. I'd give him a pass if we don't win because of the dead cap this year, but there really is no reason we shouldn't be talking about winning the East in December.
But in his moves aimed at building long term value and talent, I think he has been spot on.
I agree with the good drafts and so-so FA signings. I wonder, does anyone know if Connelly is due back this year? It would be a shame if he's out until next year.
Also apart from Saquon, Jones and Lawrence, I’m not ready to proclaim the last two drafts as “great.” I don’t think using 6 picks on 4 DBs this last draft was a smart use of resources when the team has so many holes at other positions.
Obviously Bethea was a 2019 mistake but I think he did okay with the trades and the other FA pickups. Remmers was a stopgap and only on BBI was Remmers looked at as a key acquisition.
I give him one more crack at free agency.
What still concerns me is how reluctant Gettleman seemed to even admit that a rebuild was necessary. Maybe that was merely a media/PR strategy. But it does make me wonder how accurately he can assess the state of the team at any given moment.
For example, the way he and Shurmur celebrated the end of last season was concerning.
The oddity is that he was probably a little better in Carolina at getting value from FA's and his drafts were OK. He's been pretty poor at FA here.
I'm just speculating but it is quite possible that since than he realizes more of his attention needs to be given to the draft than FA now. Remember he was a pro personal guy for a long time. DG seems like a guy that learns from his mistakes and isn't afraid to say he made them, at least privately and through his actions.
I agree with the good drafts and so-so FA signings. I wonder, does anyone know if Connelly is due back this year? It would be a shame if he's out until next year.
He ruptures his ACL. Definitely out for the year. Already placed on IR.
I don't think this is the coaching staff to lead us to contender level. That's a big decision on tap, and I hope if DG believes the same that he's decisive in making changes.
On that note, my dad and I were discussing Robert Saleh (9'ers D coordinator) last night and whether he'll be a head coaching candidate as early as 2020. He's an incredibly enthusiastic young coordinator with a really interesting background. We may be incorrect, but we both figured he's the kind of candidate Gettleman will never touch.
But in his moves aimed at building long term value and talent, I think he has been spot on.
I agree with his drafts being very solid but the free agency is so/so but I also think some of the signings, trades, cuts and all his other moves were geared towards character guys he wanted to get the locker room back to a team first mentality. Let's Go New York Football Giants
Philosophically, he did no evaluating of who to keep and who to get rid of. The result has been he is trying to fill spots where he already possibly had players. Gettlemen has created more holes than he has filled. One would think that he would use constant churning of the roster as a way to find some wheat but then he goes and signs guys like Stupar and Benny Fowler who are obvious chaff.
Let's challenge some assumptions. Is Zeitler one of the top guards in the League? He's injured now and is not playing great. Hernandez has struggled this year. Remmers is, predictably, not a very good tackle. Solder has struggled. Halapio has, also predictably, stunk. Barkley covers a lot of sins for that o-line.
Also, our linebackers blow (and we are trying to run a 3-4), the receiving corp is to be kind, sub par, the DB's are horrible and the safeties suck. There are still a lot of holes, some of them self-created.
He's an average-below average GM although compared to Reese, he's George Young. He has found some guys like Slayton and Hernandez who might be players. Jones might be a player- we'll see how he responds over the next few weeks now that Lil Bill has established the formula to defend him. Lawrence might be too although the Pats running qb sneaks over him 7 times might be a warning sign on some limitations.
A lot of you are making the mistake of fans of bad teams- seeing "potential" in average joe players for sticking out on a limited roster and seeing "hustle" or "activity" as a substitute for ability. Golden is an example. He's got a few sacks but makes few other plays, can't defend the pass and gets run over against the run. There's a reason the talent-starved Cardinals gave up on him.
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at minimizing cap allocation for players he can move away from and he's been very good at drafting.
The oddity is that he was probably a little better in Carolina at getting value from FA's and his drafts were OK. He's been pretty poor at FA here.
I'm just speculating but it is quite possible that since than he realizes more of his attention needs to be given to the draft than FA now. Remember he was a pro personal guy for a long time. DG seems like a guy that learns from his mistakes and isn't afraid to say he made them, at least privately and through his actions.
I actually agree with this last part, about making mistakes and not being afraid to move on from them quickly. I feel like Reese was opposite in nature. I can’t imagine Reese signing a guy like Omameh and cutting him in season.
Well, the Giants were coming of an 11-5 season prior to Whitworth's free agency while the Rams had been 4-12, so I doubt it had anything to do with team reputation or success.
I will give Shurmur this year to show me I can trust him, but so far, based on the 1.5 years we’ve seen, I’m not wowed by this choice. I see flaws that concern me. I hope they go away.
The oddity is that he was probably a little better in Carolina at getting value from FA's and his drafts were OK. He's been pretty poor at FA here.
We will see on his drafts. Lets not make the Reese-Odell mistake with Gettlemen-Barkley. So far, these "very good" drafts have not translated into much on the field beyond keeping fans amused.
The oddity is that he was probably a little better in Carolina at getting value from FA's and his drafts were OK. He's been pretty poor at FA here.
One could argue he played a big part in the Giants SB runs by helping acquire talented, undervalued FAs. He was pro personnel director when they brought in:
McKenzie
Pierce
Plaxico
O'Hara
Hixon
Rolle
Boley
Canty
Robbins
Mitchell
Madison
etc
This reads as if it hasn't improved at all. Not surprisingly, the most pessimistic take is floated.
Obviously Bethea was a 2019 mistake but I think he did okay with the trades and the other FA pickups. Remmers was a stopgap and only on BBI was Remmers looked at as a key acquisition.
I give him one more crack at free agency.
I don't think "BBI" viewed Remmers as anything other than a stopgap. Most felt "average" RT play was/is his ceiling, but that even if he was a bottom third starting RT that it'd be a (significant) upgrade over last year's RTs.
This OL is worlds better than previous years and should only improve with more FA capital and draft picks.
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I like the course we're on...
What still concerns me is how reluctant Gettleman seemed to even admit that a rebuild was necessary. Maybe that was merely a media/PR strategy. But it does make me wonder how accurately he can assess the state of the team at any given moment.
For example, the way he and Shurmur celebrated the end of last season was concerning.
You're putting too much stock into what he says to the media. You don't draft a QB #6 overall if you don't think a "rebuild" is necessary.
By allocation, I mean that he has structured contracts with outs so future years aren't burdened with a high cap hit if the player is released. You don't think that is an argument for the GM?
Are you that anti-management that now you sound completely ignorant?
i have no idea how cap allocation is tied to lining owner's pockets, and I have a feeling you don't either, but hey -= you get to work in a one-liner about Price Waterhouse.
Kudos.
We were literally starting Flowers and Bobby Hart at tackle spots in recent years, where on every single snap, it seemed Eli might get killed.
This OL is worlds better than previous years and should only improve with more FA capital and draft picks.
Go back and read Sy's game review. The two tackles he brought in - one paid like an All-Pro - are grading out close to where Flowers did. This line is better than what it was, but it is a long way from a good line.
Which means he's also tied to:
Josh Allen (both QB and LB).
And Darnold.
And Rosen.
And, this is more of a stretch, Lamar Jackson.
We are now in a "QB arms race" to see which one ends up being the best one because we had a chance for any of them.
By and large, I give DG a C+ for the draft. It looks like he's picked players trending the right direction. But I have not been a fan wit the way he's managed the draft.
In free agency, I find the results very mixed as well. I'm not going to hammer him on the Jonathan Stewart move. That was peanuts compared to the Solder move. On the other hand, Golden looks like a real get.
I think his best moments have been in trades, actually.
So, I'm in the TBD/Incomplete camp.
No way of knowing about when Jones would be ready. No problem with paying Eli just fir this year. BFD. We’ll have money next year to extend our eligible core players
That's more on Shurmur and Reese than it is Gettleman, let's be honest.
Markus Golden.
Seriously? He gutted almost the entire team and with few exceptions started over with new players. You’re better than this. :)
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I don't think this is the coaching staff to lead us to contender level. That's a big decision on tap, and I hope if DG believes the same that he's decisive in making changes.
On that note, my dad and I were discussing Robert Saleh (9'ers D coordinator) last night and whether he'll be a head coaching candidate as early as 2020. He's an incredibly enthusiastic young coordinator with a really interesting background. We may be incorrect, but we both figured he's the kind of candidate Gettleman will never touch.
Robert Saleh is the kind of guy the NYG should be looking at for 2020/2021. He's a young dude with a lot of energy and a nice resume thus far, with a strong defensive background. His Niners D is humming on all cylinders. Definitely a name to keep their eyes on.
That depends on what you thought of the team he inherited. Considering most wanted Reese fired, I'm guessing the consensus was that the roster was pretty baren and clearly DG felt the same (I believe Shepard and Engram are the only offensive starters inherited and Jenkins and Tomlinson the only D starters). That's major turnover in 2 years and I'd argue next season is when they need to start winning.
Robert Saleh is the kind of guy the NYG should be looking at for 2020/2021. He's a young dude with a lot of energy and a nice resume thus far, with a strong defensive background. His Niners D is humming on all cylinders. Definitely a name to keep their eyes on.
I agree. I just honestly don't see it happening (IF they even fire Shurmur, which I doubt they'll do). I hope I'm wrong, but I just feel like Gettleman has a particular... head coach archetype in his mind that Saleh doesn't belong to.
For example, Hill and Hernandez both have leveled off. Last year I would have rated them as excellent picks. This year I would say Hernandez was a good but not great pick. He is no Chris Snee
But ultimately the only thing that matters is wins. And so far we have two this year.
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I
Robert Saleh is the kind of guy the NYG should be looking at for 2020/2021. He's a young dude with a lot of energy and a nice resume thus far, with a strong defensive background. His Niners D is humming on all cylinders. Definitely a name to keep their eyes on.
I agree. I just honestly don't see it happening (IF they even fire Shurmur, which I doubt they'll do). I hope I'm wrong, but I just feel like Gettleman has a particular... head coach archetype in his mind that Saleh doesn't belong to.
I know exactly what you mean. I hope you're not right about that, but if I had to bet, I would think you are. Would be a shame, really.
-Like his drafts and acquiring more picks. Seems to be drafting "football" players and some nice later round finds.
-Coaching staff is not good. The problem is how much input did he have after McAdoo? Seemed like Mara wanted someone with experience and a safe hire. Would love to know his "actual" thoughts on the staff.
That in 2 years is a core you can build a championship around. The fight the team showed vs New England also means the team will fight for each other and their coach.
All huge wins. Yes, I am on the DG train. It's not anywhere near its destination, but I am confident we'll compete for a ring in 1 - 2 years.
Yes sir. Being religious has nothing to do with it. Saleh actually is, but that's neither here nor there. The key is image. The Maras ALWAYS select the HC though, so it's not just on Getts. Let's see what happens because Bill Parcells ain't walkin' through that door.
Interest in him magnifies when you see him on the sideline. The guy is clearly enthusiastic, energetic, and just plain charismatic.
That's a part of it. His youth is another part of it, and his background may be yet another. Will Gettleman take seriously a guy who nearly decided to abandon football altogether for a financial career?
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I just looked up his background - finance graduate, played college ball on the offensive side of the football, and has made his name as a great defensive coordinator. I said I had a giant man crush on him watching him the last two weeks. After reading his background, in a game now driven by analytics, it screams that is going to be a very good head coach.
Interest in him magnifies when you see him on the sideline. The guy is clearly enthusiastic, energetic, and just plain charismatic.
That's all well and good, but I also care about tactics, preparation, football I.Q., and common sense. So far so good from Saleh, but I wanna see more and I want to see what his players think of him intellectually and what his superiors think about him behind closed doors so that when decision makers have something to decide on, we can get some kind of word about what they think about him. Enthusiasm can only go so far.
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In comment 14628422 Zeke's Alibi said:
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I just looked up his background - finance graduate, played college ball on the offensive side of the football, and has made his name as a great defensive coordinator. I said I had a giant man crush on him watching him the last two weeks. After reading his background, in a game now driven by analytics, it screams that is going to be a very good head coach.
Interest in him magnifies when you see him on the sideline. The guy is clearly enthusiastic, energetic, and just plain charismatic.
That's all well and good, but I also care about tactics, preparation, football I.Q., and common sense. So far so good from Saleh, but I wanna see more and I want to see what his players think of him intellectually and what his superiors think about him behind closed doors so that when decision makers have something to decide on, we can get some kind of word about what they think about him. Enthusiasm can only go so far.
Sure, I just mentioned his sideline appeal to highlight that he isn't merely some analytical egghead.
If we fire Shurmur and are going ex-head coach (which I imagine would unfortunately be the case... IF we fire Shurmur, which I imagine would unfortunately not be the case), I'd actually prefer Jay Gruden.
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is most likely a Muslim? Salah doesn't strike me as a very religious guy if at all though sadly I could see how that is problematic.
That's a part of it. His youth is another part of it, and his background may be yet another. Will Gettleman take seriously a guy who nearly decided to abandon football altogether for a financial career?
That can be both good or bad. Belichick is a career football man, but he majored in Economics. Ernie Adams was/is his James "Tip" Anderson throughout. Getts and Saleh would need to discuss that, but it can also be a positive. I think he and Getts might get along fine. Saleh knows patterns and numbers for sure with that kind of background. Getts has seen it all in his years in pro football, so he'll know how to break down the situation.
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In comment 14628449 santacruzom said:
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In comment 14628422 Zeke's Alibi said:
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I just looked up his background - finance graduate, played college ball on the offensive side of the football, and has made his name as a great defensive coordinator. I said I had a giant man crush on him watching him the last two weeks. After reading his background, in a game now driven by analytics, it screams that is going to be a very good head coach.
Interest in him magnifies when you see him on the sideline. The guy is clearly enthusiastic, energetic, and just plain charismatic.
That's all well and good, but I also care about tactics, preparation, football I.Q., and common sense. So far so good from Saleh, but I wanna see more and I want to see what his players think of him intellectually and what his superiors think about him behind closed doors so that when decision makers have something to decide on, we can get some kind of word about what they think about him. Enthusiasm can only go so far.
Sure, I just mentioned his sideline appeal to highlight that he isn't merely some analytical egghead.
I'm with you completely. Saleh has an interesting background in that regard and a good combo of characteristics.
Hell yeah. McCarthy got away with murder. Coughlin undressed him when they went up against each other in '07. If you know football at all, you should know to steer clear of that charlatan.
That guy signed FAs like Kerry Collins, Feagles, O'Hara, Pierce, McKenzie, Burress, Mitchell, Rolle, Canty, Bernard, etc.
Anyone know what he's up to?
So you consistently rail on Shurmurs HC record, but you want to entertain the idea of hiring Schwartz? He's never getting another shot, way too many personality defaults and demanding his players carry him on their shoulders after a win sticks out in my memory. No way players respect the guy.
I wouldn't go that far, but I definitely think there'd be better options.
According the BBI the only guy suitable to run this team and be successful is BB and there was an entire thread on how he wasn't coming here.
I don’t see anyone turning the 2017 disaster into a winning team in 2019.
Oh, and the season isn’t even over yet.
So you think McCarthy will win with this roster?
Better OL
Better RBs
Better pass rushers
Young QB in the fold and one we all like and agree upon that the future looks good.
Better cap space coming (end of the league calendar)
Better LBs is up for debate but Connelly was a terrific story before the injury.
WR/TEs ok no Beckham and DG Inherited Shep and Engram but he drafted Slayton.
The secondary has been completely rebuilt. Let’s give it more than five minutes to pass judgement.
The young talent base is so much better than where we were in 2017 it’s downright laughable. Don’t even start.
So you consistently rail on Shurmurs HC record, but you want to entertain the idea of hiring Schwartz? He's never getting another shot, way too many personality defaults and demanding his players carry him on their shoulders after a win sticks out in my memory. No way players respect the guy.
Schwartz is right where he belongs - running a defense. Except for one year, let's just say his tenure with the Lions was not inspiring.
If Shurmur ends up getting ousted, I'd give Ryan Day a long, long look. He has a very good offensive mind and seems to be very good at organizing. A dark horse for me would be Joe Brady, the LSU OC. He's brought that team out of the ice age of playing offense. And deserves huge kudos for his work with Joe Burrow.
Or you could just conjure up the record from 17 through today and ignore the signs of progress.
Or you could just conjure up the record from 17 through today and ignore the signs of progress.
this was pretty funny...
A Sean McVay-type. The problem is - just going after his type doesn't ensure he'll be a good coach. Freddy Kitchens is a testament to that.
It's tough figuring out who is a leader of men and one to steer a team, and each team probably has a personality that doesn't fit all coaches.
Put Bill Parcells on the Cardinals in the 80's and we'd likely never hear of any legacy of his.
Better OL
Better RBs
Better pass rushers
Young QB in the fold and one we all like and agree upon that the future looks good.
Better cap space coming (end of the league calendar)
Better LBs is up for debate but Connelly was a terrific story before the injury.
WR/TEs ok no Beckham and DG Inherited Shep and Engram but he drafted Slayton.
The secondary has been completely rebuilt. Let’s give it more than five minutes to pass judgement.
The young talent base is so much better than where we were in 2017 it’s downright laughable. Don’t even start.
Don’t conjure up records? Now I have heard everything. The sport is about winning but we should not look at winning percentage? In your opinion, this and that is better. That does not mean shit unless they win
Getts deserves an off-season in 2020 without the burdens of older players on the roster who aren't part of the future to go ahead and re-stock the talent on this team, starting with the OL and Front 7. This game is won in the trenches with big nasties. Plain and simple. IF you've got big people, then you can compete. That's what needs to happen. It will probably take another two seasons as well, so buckle up and get ready to see more losing football until then.
Marc Ross, Chris Mara, John Mara and Jerry Reese all had a big hand in screwing the pooch these past years. It will take a long time to unscrew the pooch. People can whine and complain about Remmers and other jags like him, but he's still a big improvement over the kid they had playing RT before him. Gettleman knows this. Right now there are a lot of hold the fort type of players on this roster, as Parcells called them. The cavalry is yet to arrive. Gettleman knows he has to find them. He's not stupid. He has FA and lots of cap space and the draft to go ahead and do this. Give it two more years. Until then, this team is still poopy.
And gave up almost 600 yards of offense LOL......and his defense the last few years have been nothing close to worthy.
He is dealing with a pretty limited budget considering how much dead cap we have from past mistakes. You can just change that overnight. one of his biggest assests is admitting mistakes and moving on. Cutting guys he signed.
There are people that are blaming him for Eli and I think that is more on ownership than DG. I dont know for sure but it seems pretty obvious that they wanted Eli back.
Drafts have been solid. I was against the Barkley pick(I wanted Darnold) but you cant really argue with the talent. If he can stay healthy, a big IF, he is a HoFer as he is already the best back in the NFL. DJ looks very good so far in a small sample, he will have his ups and downs. Lawrence looks like a great pick, Baker has started to come on and we are seeing contributions from most of the picks. It's possible that we are seeing contributions from the picks because our team was so bad before so that remains to be seen but there have been some later picks that look like NFL talent.
For what he was dealing with I see the talent level getting stronger. We have a very young team and should be able to compete in a big way next year. If we are not competing next year then it is a failure. The one thing you can say about this team so far is that they at least give maximum effort.
I am not sold on Shurmur though, he makes questionable decisions every game.
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Who cares. They don't hand out the Price Waterhouse Trophy at the Super Bowl to the team with the best cap allocation, and it's easy to allocate cap when you get rid of everyone making over minimum wage. Other than putting money in the owners' pockets (which makes him a popular figure with the owners), this is not an argument for a GM.
By allocation, I mean that he has structured contracts with outs so future years aren't burdened with a high cap hit if the player is released. You don't think that is an argument for the GM?
Are you that anti-management that now you sound completely ignorant?
i have no idea how cap allocation is tied to lining owner's pockets, and I have a feeling you don't either, but hey -= you get to work in a one-liner about Price Waterhouse.
Kudos.
Of course you have no idea. What the owner doesn't need to come up with in cash stays in the owner's pocket. What the owner doesn't need to borrow or is not obligated to pay in the future stays off the owner's balance sheet.
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If you're drinking kool aid, something is wrong with you.
Seriously? He gutted almost the entire team and with few exceptions started over with new players. You’re better than this. :)
Why are you looking at me like I'm the weird one. I think people lean way too hard on blaming Reese as an excuse for present day inadequacy. We are two years into this. We still have no idea if they hired a good head coach, the offensive line isnt fixed. It's just taped together with older stopgaps. The defense is worse. About the only thing that's fixed is defensive line maybe and RB.
Why are you looking at me like I'm the weird one. I think people lean way too hard on blaming Reese as an excuse for present day inadequacy. We are two years into this. We still have no idea if they hired a good head coach, the offensive line isnt fixed. It's just taped together with older stopgaps. The defense is worse. About the only thing that's fixed is defensive line maybe and RB.
Hopefully QB or the rest of it is moot.
As for the secondary, too many young pieces to judge right now. We'll have a better idea by the end of the season though.
and that seemed to be the only thing Reese was good at was drafting playmakers. He either Hit or Missed, no in between depth fillers.
Remind me when Sean McVay was an HC before he got the Rams gig? Let me help you - NOWHERE.
Look, you are probably right. That's not a Jints Central type move. But don't sell Day or Brady short. They are very, very bright...
Let’s see how Gettleman spends the pile of money he’s accumulated for next year and how his next draft is? And, how he handles the HC if Shurmur continues to screw up
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Joe Brady who has coached 0 games at any level as a HC or Ryan Day who has coached 9 games as a HC will be the next HC of the NYG next year.
Remind me when Sean McVay was an HC before he got the Rams gig? Let me help you - NOWHERE.
Look, you are probably right. That's not a Jints Central type move. But don't sell Day or Brady short. They are very, very bright...
I'm not arguing that they shouldn't be considered.
You hit the nail on the head - Jints Central doesn't roll that way.
They went out on a limb when they hired MacAdoo and they got burned. They went right back to the well with PS. He stacks up very favorably to the line of coaches before him.
Of course you have no idea. What the owner doesn't need to come up with in cash stays in the owner's pocket. What the owner doesn't need to borrow or is not obligated to pay in the future stays off the owner's balance sheet.
We have been up against the cap the past several years. Exactly how is that going into pockets?
Do you just throw shade at management for the fuck of it??
2016 was an outlier. We had a very good turnover ratio and a very healthy team. What;s funny is that McAdoo made some of the same decisions that TC did on gameday - in 2016 - it worked out because the D made some stops. In 2015 AND in 2017 it didn't because we didn't make stops.
How do "gameday decisions" (2-3 per game) outweigh playcalling (60+ per game)? McAdoo may have been good at the former, but he sucked at the latter. He didn't have to make any gameday decisions in 2017 because his predictable offense couldn't generate enough offense to get them in position.
I agree with this.
So far the Jones pick has shown enough promise that he has earned another year, but he has to use the cap money available next year wisely. His multi-year UFA signings have generally been poor, he hasn't shown that he can manage these signings and the cap yet. Also the hire of Shurmur is looking more and more like a black mark.
Case in point...Tom Coughlin is a very good to great football coach. That 2011 team had a ridiculously bad OL, and a decent to average defense, and we won the Super Bowl. Pat Shurmur would have probably gone 4-12 with that team.
Are some of you that dense or argumentative ?
What did this team look like midway through and down the stretch of 2017? That team was not bad, it was downright dreadful. The record should have been even worse than 4-12 or 3-13. That 2017 was the worst giants team in my lifetime. Not bad, historically bad.
Fast forward to 2018 first half. That team was bad too but I’d say it was functionally bad. Not historically bad but just plain bad. By the end of the year the giants were playing mediocre football. Some weird stat even backs up the claim that the 2018 giants weren’t as bad as the record indicated. But that’s not the point. The point is the actual product, the actual smell test and eye test told us all that the 2018 giants team was in fact better than the 2017 team, and by a pretty wide margin.
We are 6 weeks in to the 2019 season. We have one more win than we had this time last year despite suffering many more brutal and critical injuries. We’re one win better. Hopefully healthy in the weeks ahead we will see this team flirt with 500. The roster is in fact better. The team is in fact younger. We have the young qb that nyg fans couldn’t wait to see.
DG has improved things.
Losing to the cards and sitting at 2-5 won’t feel much different than last season. 3-4 will feel different.
But once Brown got here and Pulley was entrenched at Center, they were much more effective than the first half of 2018.
To my eyes at least, I thought the group that played the last 8 games last year was doing a better job than this current group. That said, this group has faced a bunch of tough defensive fronts. But it is not clear to me at all that this OL is performing better than the second half of last year. Solder has caught whatever disease Flowers had, and Remmers looks just as pathetic as Chad Wheeler. There is more confusion and miscommunication this year, and as a result more trouble picking up stunts and blitzes again.
This year's OL play has been poor!
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He pushed every right button in 2016; something like 8 or 9 of our 11 wins came with the game still in doubt on the final possession. I suspect now that our locker room has been vacated of the losers that McAdoo would be a big step up from Shurmur.
How do "gameday decisions" (2-3 per game) outweigh playcalling (60+ per game)? McAdoo may have been good at the former, but he sucked at the latter. He didn't have to make any gameday decisions in 2017 because his predictable offense couldn't generate enough offense to get them in position.
McAdoo's offense wasn't so much predictable as it was populated by poor players. The offensive line was putrid and Eli's eye level had lowered, which shaped the offense into a short drop, quick pass offense.
And let's be clear on Shurmur...since he's been here his offensive playcalling and management has been horrendous. Setting aside for the moment that he doesn't know when to call timeout or when to punt/go for it, this is the same guy that has underused Barkley in crucial possessions. Remember, he saw fit to run the ball with Penny on 3rd and 1 and roll Eli out on 4th and 1 in Dallas.
The only benefit a Shurmur supporter can point to is that he can "develop" Jones, and the actual meaning/relevance of that is nebulous at best.
And look, it's not too late to have a season. We're 1 game back with 10 to play. If the Giants turn it around and win the division at 10-6 or 9-7 I'll be ecstatic to admit I was wrong - I'd rather be wrong and watch the Giants in a playoff game than right.
But when the Giants finish this season at 6-10 or worse, Shurmur should be out on his ass the day after the last game.
Solder, What choice did he have after Norwell signed?
Stewart, No but why whine about this?
2018 Draft Hell yes, we could not afford to miss at 2, we did not.
OBJ signing, right call, did not overpay. No way to know he was going to basically ask out of town months after he signed deal.
Vernon Trade HELL YES
OBJ HELL YES
2019 Draft LOVE IT
Guy beat cancer and bleeds Giant Blue, I think he loves the team, more than a job to him. I like him and will look for reasons to defend him rather than bitch about him.
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In comment 14628605 Go Terps said:
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He pushed every right button in 2016; something like 8 or 9 of our 11 wins came with the game still in doubt on the final possession. I suspect now that our locker room has been vacated of the losers that McAdoo would be a big step up from Shurmur.
How do "gameday decisions" (2-3 per game) outweigh playcalling (60+ per game)? McAdoo may have been good at the former, but he sucked at the latter. He didn't have to make any gameday decisions in 2017 because his predictable offense couldn't generate enough offense to get them in position.
McAdoo's offense wasn't so much predictable as it was populated by poor players. The offensive line was putrid and Eli's eye level had lowered, which shaped the offense into a short drop, quick pass offense.
And let's be clear on Shurmur...since he's been here his offensive playcalling and management has been horrendous. Setting aside for the moment that he doesn't know when to call timeout or when to punt/go for it, this is the same guy that has underused Barkley in crucial possessions. Remember, he saw fit to run the ball with Penny on 3rd and 1 and roll Eli out on 4th and 1 in Dallas.
The only benefit a Shurmur supporter can point to is that he can "develop" Jones, and the actual meaning/relevance of that is nebulous at best.
And look, it's not too late to have a season. We're 1 game back with 10 to play. If the Giants turn it around and win the division at 10-6 or 9-7 I'll be ecstatic to admit I was wrong - I'd rather be wrong and watch the Giants in a playoff game than right.
But when the Giants finish this season at 6-10 or worse, Shurmur should be out on his ass the day after the last game.
Regarding Shurmur, what bothers me most is that the players to often look confused and unsure of what their responsibilities are. The game plans seem very vanilla, and I never see the team adjust. Overall, the players and the coaching staff seem ill-prepared for games.
I'll give you a Bill B. - maybe McVay ... who ya got?
I think Jones Mania has deluded everyone into acknowledging or forgetting, this team has not won a lot of games this year just like last year. Has DJ proved he can play well against top defenses at this stage if ever? Is signing Tate for 20 mil supposed to make up for trading Odell for Peppers? Your rebuilding OK, send Eli home in the off season and retain some of your talent on D. He is obviously throwing a bunch of s--t against the wall and seeing if it sticks. He acquired a few good guys on D but come on - -this guy is ridiculous.
Such a huge post fail, it's embarrassing.
Question 1, answer is emphatic yes.
Question 2, Tate's deal is very reasonable and he's a good player. And further, the deal wasn't Odell for Peppers, it was Odell for Peppers, Dexter Lawrence, and Oshane Ximines, so yeah, it was a GREAT deal for the Giants.
This guy is ridiculous? He's basically killed it since he got here, the only missteps were a couple of free agency signings that didn't work out that almost everyone cheered when they were made, like Omameh. He traded JPP and he got back B.J. Hill (already a win) and Lauletta (you can't hit on 'em all) with the picks that came back in return.
He rightly let Collins walk. No GM bats 1.000, but he's greatly improved this team's future and present, and I think the team is in great hands.
But once Brown got here and Pulley was entrenched at Center, they were much more effective than the first half of 2018.
To my eyes at least, I thought the group that played the last 8 games last year was doing a better job than this current group. That said, this group has faced a bunch of tough defensive fronts. But it is not clear to me at all that this OL is performing better than the second half of last year. Solder has caught whatever disease Flowers had, and Remmers looks just as pathetic as Chad Wheeler. There is more confusion and miscommunication this year, and as a result more trouble picking up stunts and blitzes again.
This year's OL play has been poor!
It hasn't been as bad as you have said. It looked really bad against the Vikings. And Remmers and Solder have struggled at times (especially in that game), but in no way are there anywhere as near as bad as Flowers and Wheeler. Remmers is much, much better than Chad Wheeler. And Solder is a league average starting LT at this point, while Flowers isn't even a starting tackle at all.
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This guy sounded like a clown on draft night. What has changed?
I think Jones Mania has deluded everyone into acknowledging or forgetting, this team has not won a lot of games this year just like last year. Has DJ proved he can play well against top defenses at this stage if ever? Is signing Tate for 20 mil supposed to make up for trading Odell for Peppers? Your rebuilding OK, send Eli home in the off season and retain some of your talent on D. He is obviously throwing a bunch of s--t against the wall and seeing if it sticks. He acquired a few good guys on D but come on - -this guy is ridiculous.
Such a huge post fail, it's embarrassing.
Question 1, answer is emphatic yes.
Question 2, Tate's deal is very reasonable and he's a good player. And further, the deal wasn't Odell for Peppers, it was Odell for Peppers, Dexter Lawrence, and Oshane Ximines, so yeah, it was a GREAT deal for the Giants.
This guy is ridiculous? He's basically killed it since he got here, the only missteps were a couple of free agency signings that didn't work out that almost everyone cheered when they were made, like Omameh. He traded JPP and he got back B.J. Hill (already a win) and Lauletta (you can't hit on 'em all) with the picks that came back in return.
He rightly let Collins walk. No GM bats 1.000, but he's greatly improved this team's future and present, and I think the team is in great hands.
You are answering Q#1 emphatically yes? Not me. I like Jones' potential but that is all he is right now. He hasn't demonstrated yet that he can learn from his mistakes and be a consistent thrower of the ball in tough situations. When he demonstrates these key traits then I will answer YES to #!.
Solder, What choice did he have after Norwell signed?
Stewart, No but why whine about this?
2018 Draft Hell yes, we could not afford to miss at 2, we did not.
OBJ signing, right call, did not overpay. No way to know he was going to basically ask out of town months after he signed deal.
Vernon Trade HELL YES
OBJ HELL YES
2019 Draft LOVE IT
Guy beat cancer and bleeds Giant Blue, I think he loves the team, more than a job to him. I like him and will look for reasons to defend him rather than bitch about him.
Absolutely!!
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In comment 14628283 Big_N said:
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This guy sounded like a clown on draft night. What has changed?
I think Jones Mania has deluded everyone into acknowledging or forgetting, this team has not won a lot of games this year just like last year. Has DJ proved he can play well against top defenses at this stage if ever? Is signing Tate for 20 mil supposed to make up for trading Odell for Peppers? Your rebuilding OK, send Eli home in the off season and retain some of your talent on D. He is obviously throwing a bunch of s--t against the wall and seeing if it sticks. He acquired a few good guys on D but come on - -this guy is ridiculous.
Such a huge post fail, it's embarrassing.
Question 1, answer is emphatic yes.
Question 2, Tate's deal is very reasonable and he's a good player. And further, the deal wasn't Odell for Peppers, it was Odell for Peppers, Dexter Lawrence, and Oshane Ximines, so yeah, it was a GREAT deal for the Giants.
This guy is ridiculous? He's basically killed it since he got here, the only missteps were a couple of free agency signings that didn't work out that almost everyone cheered when they were made, like Omameh. He traded JPP and he got back B.J. Hill (already a win) and Lauletta (you can't hit on 'em all) with the picks that came back in return.
He rightly let Collins walk. No GM bats 1.000, but he's greatly improved this team's future and present, and I think the team is in great hands.
You are answering Q#1 emphatically yes? Not me. I like Jones' potential but that is all he is right now. He hasn't demonstrated yet that he can learn from his mistakes and be a consistent thrower of the ball in tough situations. When he demonstrates these key traits then I will answer YES to #!.
You need to watch the film of the Vikings and Pats games and get back to me. It's an emphatic YES. He absolutely was a consistent thrower of the ball in tough situations. If anyone denies this, they don't know what they are watching or just haven't watched the film.
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In comment 14628689 allstarjim said:
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In comment 14628283 Big_N said:
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This guy sounded like a clown on draft night. What has changed?
I think Jones Mania has deluded everyone into acknowledging or forgetting, this team has not won a lot of games this year just like last year. Has DJ proved he can play well against top defenses at this stage if ever? Is signing Tate for 20 mil supposed to make up for trading Odell for Peppers? Your rebuilding OK, send Eli home in the off season and retain some of your talent on D. He is obviously throwing a bunch of s--t against the wall and seeing if it sticks. He acquired a few good guys on D but come on - -this guy is ridiculous.
Such a huge post fail, it's embarrassing.
Question 1, answer is emphatic yes.
Question 2, Tate's deal is very reasonable and he's a good player. And further, the deal wasn't Odell for Peppers, it was Odell for Peppers, Dexter Lawrence, and Oshane Ximines, so yeah, it was a GREAT deal for the Giants.
This guy is ridiculous? He's basically killed it since he got here, the only missteps were a couple of free agency signings that didn't work out that almost everyone cheered when they were made, like Omameh. He traded JPP and he got back B.J. Hill (already a win) and Lauletta (you can't hit on 'em all) with the picks that came back in return.
He rightly let Collins walk. No GM bats 1.000, but he's greatly improved this team's future and present, and I think the team is in great hands.
You are answering Q#1 emphatically yes? Not me. I like Jones' potential but that is all he is right now. He hasn't demonstrated yet that he can learn from his mistakes and be a consistent thrower of the ball in tough situations. When he demonstrates these key traits then I will answer YES to #!.
You need to watch the film of the Vikings and Pats games and get back to me. It's an emphatic YES. He absolutely was a consistent thrower of the ball in tough situations. If anyone denies this, they don't know what they are watching or just haven't watched the film.
Well I am glad it was consistent. I am not even sure what that means ... seems to me it was a rough night the whole time. Question 1 is why this guy looked so clownish on draft night?
He could not answer basic questions about picking Jones at 6. He has shown a complete lack of any kind of plan for this team going forward. He mentioned DJ and Eli might be in a QB competition. Then he mentioned being in a Green Bay / Rogers situation. Rogers sat for 3 years. Reporters rightfully asked him again why Jones at 6 if you are not going to play him for 3 years. This guy is basically sounds like an idiot. He has a JV defense that are bad tacklers in a pro league! This isn't college football. Somehow letting Collins go was a good idea? Peppers, Dexter Lawrence, and Oshane Ximines is really a good trade? Bringing back Eli and having him ride pine for 10mil is a good idea? I mean this is like the twilight zone. oh yeah not to mention this team is 2-4. There's that also.
Fassel won coach of the year his very first year and won the NFC East (1997).
Coughlin went 11-5 in his 2nd year with this team and from 2005-2011 proceeded to make the playoffs 5 of 7 years (including a year they went 10-6 and MISSED the playoffs).
I have no idea why people are so content to say "we have to be patient, of course we're going to lose the first 3-4 years of this regime, because this is a 'serious' and 'real' rebuild" or whatever.
Not really. The contracts that end up not counting are all league minimum, and that's pretty much the case for every team.
McAdoo's offense wasn't so much predictable as it was populated by poor players. The offensive line was putrid and Eli's eye level had lowered, which shaped the offense into a short drop, quick pass offense.
And let's be clear on Shurmur...since he's been here his offensive playcalling and management has been horrendous. Setting aside for the moment that he doesn't know when to call timeout or when to punt/go for it, this is the same guy that has underused Barkley in crucial possessions. Remember, he saw fit to run the ball with Penny on 3rd and 1 and roll Eli out on 4th and 1 in Dallas.
The only benefit a Shurmur supporter can point to is that he can "develop" Jones, and the actual meaning/relevance of that is nebulous at best.
And look, it's not too late to have a season. We're 1 game back with 10 to play. If the Giants turn it around and win the division at 10-6 or 9-7 I'll be ecstatic to admit I was wrong - I'd rather be wrong and watch the Giants in a playoff game than right.
But when the Giants finish this season at 6-10 or worse, Shurmur should be out on his ass the day after the last game.
This is an interesting post in a few ways.
I think McAdoo was ahead of the curve on Eli and saw the decline sooner than most. So he drafted an offense that got the ball out of Eli's hand sooner. Remember, Eli only got sacked 21X in 2016 when we qualified for the playoffs. In fact, I think that was one of the lowest sacks totals ever in Eli's career.
Unfortunately, the wheels came off in 2017 largely due to injuries; and then the mob ganged up on McAdoo because he looked funny, had the personality of a door stop, and saw the opportunity to try something new at QB.
While I'm mostly agnostic on Shurmur as the HC, I am eager to see him coach this team with a full arsenal. An arsenal that should give plenty of play-calling flexibility and chance to really pressure defenses. I give him a mulligan last year because it's fairly clear Eli was forced into his lap. And he had to play the good soldier and go along with Corporate...
It's a tough schedule from here to the finish line. I have no idea what to expect from the D, but I think this O can vastly improve on the current 18.5PPG. And that could make a lot of difference in these games...
Fassel won coach of the year his very first year and won the NFC East (1997).
Coughlin went 11-5 in his 2nd year with this team and from 2005-2011 proceeded to make the playoffs 5 of 7 years (including a year they went 10-6 and MISSED the playoffs).
I have no idea why people are so content to say "we have to be patient, of course we're going to lose the first 3-4 years of this regime, because this is a 'serious' and 'real' rebuild" or whatever.
Because, due to Jones ( Which gettleman is responsible for...) The giants appear to be avoiding... OK if you wanna hate on Eli, coming out of... The Brown, Kannell, Graham years.
The error was pointed up with the understanding that there's work to be done to finalize a contending roster.
Fassel won coach of the year his very first year and won the NFC East (1997).
Coughlin went 11-5 in his 2nd year with this team and from 2005-2011 proceeded to make the playoffs 5 of 7 years (including a year they went 10-6 and MISSED the playoffs).
I have no idea why people are so content to say "we have to be patient, of course we're going to lose the first 3-4 years of this regime, because this is a 'serious' and 'real' rebuild" or whatever.
Why are you comparing? What part of virtually complete roster turnover are you not getting? THAT takes time..
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In comment 14628689 allstarjim said:
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In comment 14628283 Big_N said:
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This guy sounded like a clown on draft night. What has changed?
I think Jones Mania has deluded everyone into acknowledging or forgetting, this team has not won a lot of games this year just like last year. Has DJ proved he can play well against top defenses at this stage if ever? Is signing Tate for 20 mil supposed to make up for trading Odell for Peppers? Your rebuilding OK, send Eli home in the off season and retain some of your talent on D. He is obviously throwing a bunch of s--t against the wall and seeing if it sticks. He acquired a few good guys on D but come on - -this guy is ridiculous.
Such a huge post fail, it's embarrassing.
Question 1, answer is emphatic yes.
Question 2, Tate's deal is very reasonable and he's a good player. And further, the deal wasn't Odell for Peppers, it was Odell for Peppers, Dexter Lawrence, and Oshane Ximines, so yeah, it was a GREAT deal for the Giants.
This guy is ridiculous? He's basically killed it since he got here, the only missteps were a couple of free agency signings that didn't work out that almost everyone cheered when they were made, like Omameh. He traded JPP and he got back B.J. Hill (already a win) and Lauletta (you can't hit on 'em all) with the picks that came back in return.
He rightly let Collins walk. No GM bats 1.000, but he's greatly improved this team's future and present, and I think the team is in great hands.
You are answering Q#1 emphatically yes? Not me. I like Jones' potential but that is all he is right now. He hasn't demonstrated yet that he can learn from his mistakes and be a consistent thrower of the ball in tough situations. When he demonstrates these key traits then I will answer YES to #!.
You need to watch the film of the Vikings and Pats games and get back to me. It's an emphatic YES. He absolutely was a consistent thrower of the ball in tough situations. If anyone denies this, they don't know what they are watching or just haven't watched the film.
I watched those games. He was bad against the Vikes and he was awful in the Pats game. I think you are unclear about what you are seeing. He made poor decisions and he was largely inaccurate. He made a few nice throws but not enough to overcome his poor performance. I am sure he can do better, but if he can't, then plain and simple, he is not the guy.
- mocking his 4th round rookie QB to get back at the media, then cutting that player to keep a sub-journeyman 3rd stringer that's "good in the room"
- repeatedly referencing the 3-13 team he inherited
- ducking Mike Francesa because Francesa was honest with him
- failing to properly utilize our best player
- being completely unaware how to manage a football game on Sundays
What has Shurmur done well? What can we point to that is concrete and isn't blaming Reese or groundlessly saying he "deserves" more time?
.
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McAdoo's offense wasn't so much predictable as it was populated by poor players. The offensive line was putrid and Eli's eye level had lowered, which shaped the offense into a short drop, quick pass offense.
And let's be clear on Shurmur...since he's been here his offensive playcalling and management has been horrendous. Setting aside for the moment that he doesn't know when to call timeout or when to punt/go for it, this is the same guy that has underused Barkley in crucial possessions. Remember, he saw fit to run the ball with Penny on 3rd and 1 and roll Eli out on 4th and 1 in Dallas.
The only benefit a Shurmur supporter can point to is that he can "develop" Jones, and the actual meaning/relevance of that is nebulous at best.
And look, it's not too late to have a season. We're 1 game back with 10 to play. If the Giants turn it around and win the division at 10-6 or 9-7 I'll be ecstatic to admit I was wrong - I'd rather be wrong and watch the Giants in a playoff game than right.
But when the Giants finish this season at 6-10 or worse, Shurmur should be out on his ass the day after the last game.
This is an interesting post in a few ways.
I think McAdoo was ahead of the curve on Eli and saw the decline sooner than most. So he drafted an offense that got the ball out of Eli's hand sooner. Remember, Eli only got sacked 21X in 2016 when we qualified for the playoffs. In fact, I think that was one of the lowest sacks totals ever in Eli's career.
Unfortunately, the wheels came off in 2017 largely due to injuries; and then the mob ganged up on McAdoo because he looked funny, had the personality of a door stop, and saw the opportunity to try something new at QB.
While I'm mostly agnostic on Shurmur as the HC, I am eager to see him coach this team with a full arsenal. An arsenal that should give plenty of play-calling flexibility and chance to really pressure defenses. I give him a mulligan last year because it's fairly clear Eli was forced into his lap. And he had to play the good soldier and go along with Corporate...
It's a tough schedule from here to the finish line. I have no idea what to expect from the D, but I think this O can vastly improve on the current 18.5PPG. And that could make a lot of difference in these games...
Hmm mcadoo was on some next sh-t with Eli diminishing as qb? Where is coaching again the pee wee league? I’m curious when this sudden loss of an ability occurred? It probably occurred right after he won the SB in 2011.
Mcadoo offense and play looked like a high school football team. I remember them running from the shotgun a lot lol. And pretty much using that one formation for pretty much everything
I don’t think it was then need to get the ball out of Eli hands quickly as it was mac being a west coast offense oc and not really knowing how to coach a team with a pocket passer, play action pass, deep thrower . He had no ability to create on offense that built off the run or anything except the shirt passing game. He basically thought he could win against the raiders with geno and Pin a dreadful season on Eli.
Also the anti Eli ers ...this team has not won a lot of games with no Eli.
Finally, why should we wait around to see the gettlemen / shurmur science project instead of just rebuilding with some of the talent we have. Say what you want about Beckham he is a superstar talent.
And if the OL gives the proper time for Jones to throw
Then everybody is going to come out smelling like roses
If they can do that Jones will have more time to throw
Opening up Barkley and the running game more
And the receivers will get more separation
And Shurmur will look like a genius
I say they get one or two depending on the progress more years
A lot of people want to knock the free agent moves but I don’t think it’s been that bad all things considered. You can see the logic behind every move. None of the FA moves are going to crush this team in the future. The Giants can even get out of the worst contract (Solder) after 20 with a minor hit.
People forget that you need money in FA AND you have to be an attractive landing spot. Money alone won’t get you FA’s. These guys are human and want to go to a winner. The Giants have been a losing dumpster fire for a while now. Gettleman offered Preston Smith and Zadarius Smith. Both chose the Packers. Others chose to stay where they were instead of jumping to the Giants. This can change next year with the money available and if the Giants start winning.
The biggest negative I see with Gettleman was the Shurmur hire. I think Reich was available that year and he would’ve been the much better hire with the benefit of hindsight. Outside of that it was a pretty weak pool. I think Gettleman settled on Shurmur given the circumstances and would’ve preferred a defensive minded head coach. 2020 should be the end of the line for Shurmur and I’d seriously consider putting out feelers now for potential replacements.
- mocking his 4th round rookie QB to get back at the media, then cutting that player to keep a sub-journeyman 3rd stringer that's "good in the room"
- repeatedly referencing the 3-13 team he inherited
- ducking Mike Francesa because Francesa was honest with him
- failing to properly utilize our best player
- being completely unaware how to manage a football game on Sundays
What has Shurmur done well? What can we point to that is concrete and isn't blaming Reese or groundlessly saying he "deserves" more time?
I'm going to give Shurmur credit for having Jones ready to step in and produce. It looks like he's instilled confidence in the kid and hasn't limited the playbook. Those are big deals in the passing of the baton.
I don't like the pitch count on Barkley. On an annualized basis, I would make sure he gets 450+ touches per year. Because I'm assuming by the time SB hits his next contract we're nearing the point of diminishing returns. But I wonder if limiting SB's usage rate in actually Shurmur. Perhaps it's Gettleman trying to make sure his over-investing in a RB at #2 is protected; and Shurmur is simply follow orders/analytics.
As to your other issues:
-- Game management is a problem. It's a league wide
epidemic. Does that excuse it? No. But I really think
that is a skill developed over time. It's very hard to
manage an NFL game.
-- The kibosh on Francessa is Mara, not Shurmur.
-- Honestly, I haven't noticed the 3-13 references.
-- The Lauletta saga was not a high point.
epidemic. Does that excuse it? No. But I really think
that is a skill developed over time. It's very hard to
manage an NFL game.
I agree with you that game management is a problem on a lot of teams. But it's not a problem on every team. New England and Indy, to name two, have smart people dedicated solely to that. Indy has two data analysts with a direct line to Reich in games:
George Li - Senior Football Strategy Analyst/Game Management
John Park - Manager of Football Research & Strategy
Their roles are described in an illuminating article in the Athletic linked below. According to the article, Reich will ask them direct questions on game management in real time: e.g. "If this pass is completed, do we call timeout?"
This will be the second time I have linked this article here, and the second time I will, in light of the thread starter's question and Shurmur's in game failures, ask this question:
Who is the Giants' equivalent to George Li and John Park, and if there is none, how is that excusable?
Link - ( New Window )
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The OL is better than the group that played the first 8 games last yer.
But once Brown got here and Pulley was entrenched at Center, they were much more effective than the first half of 2018.
To my eyes at least, I thought the group that played the last 8 games last year was doing a better job than this current group. That said, this group has faced a bunch of tough defensive fronts. But it is not clear to me at all that this OL is performing better than the second half of last year. Solder has caught whatever disease Flowers had, and Remmers looks just as pathetic as Chad Wheeler. There is more confusion and miscommunication this year, and as a result more trouble picking up stunts and blitzes again.
This year's OL play has been poor!
It hasn't been as bad as you have said. It looked really bad against the Vikings. And Remmers and Solder have struggled at times (especially in that game), but in no way are there anywhere as near as bad as Flowers and Wheeler. Remmers is much, much better than Chad Wheeler. And Solder is a league average starting LT at this point, while Flowers isn't even a starting tackle at all.
You didn't quite follow what I said.
I was comparing the current group to the group in the last 8 games of last year. Not the first 8 games.
The first 8 games last year I have said and will continue to say was a historically bad OL. The only reason that the OL from last year didn't end up being rated as historically bad was because it improved so much in the second half.
What I am saying is that this group is not playing as well as the line of Solder, Hernandez, Pulley, Brown and Wheeler.
Then why isn't he the QB coach or the offensive coordinator? Jones could be Joe Montana and it won't matter if come Sunday Shurmur can't coach his way out of a paper bag.
In game mismanagement is bad, but for me by far the worst sin has been the the lack of preparedness with both the players and the coaches.
Players don't know their assignments, miscommunicate and generally look confused Primarily the DBs, LBs and the OL. The game plans seem vanilla and they don't have anything to fall back on when Plan A isn't working. You can say there are a lot of young players on the team and they make mistakes. I will agree, but I expect those mistakes to be more a matter of experience. When to be aggressive and when not to be. Taking the right angles. Using their leverage properly. Hand play... Even if they are rookies they should ALWAYS understand their assignments. And the issues on the OL involve veterans. So the coaching staff has no excuse.
So that is a great question - does Jints Central have people who develop situational stats and are available during a game for input...?
I guess NO.
Shurmur's offense seems to operate more effectively within the first dozen or so plays (which I presume are to some level scripted) than they do later on. The prime example of this was when his Minnesota offense marched to a TD in 9 plays to open the 2017 NFCC Game. Jim Schwartz's defense then proceeded to undress Shurmur...the opening drive was all the points they would get. We've seen that since he's been here as well - promising starts followed by struggles. It's like opponents are adjusting to what he's doing, and he's failing to adjust to the adjustment.
(Side thought - why did we hire an offensive coordinator to run our offense a day after he was completely dominated by a divisional rival in a huge game? Because he was "an adult"? Seriously?)
then he should be the QB coach or OC, not the head coach
Shurmur's offense seems to operate more effectively within the first dozen or so plays (which I presume are to some level scripted) than they do later on. The prime example of this was when his Minnesota offense marched to a TD in 9 plays to open the 2017 NFCC Game. Jim Schwartz's defense then proceeded to undress Shurmur...the opening drive was all the points they would get. We've seen that since he's been here as well - promising starts followed by struggles. It's like opponents are adjusting to what he's doing, and he's failing to adjust to the adjustment.
(Side thought - why did we hire an offensive coordinator to run our offense a day after he was completely dominated by a divisional rival in a huge game? Because he was "an adult"? Seriously?)
That always bothered me too. Add to that the fact that Shurmur was a Philly product and didn't get a second glance for the job when they canned Kelly.
Shurmur's offense seems to operate more effectively within the first dozen or so plays (which I presume are to some level scripted) than they do later on. The prime example of this was when his Minnesota offense marched to a TD in 9 plays to open the 2017 NFCC Game. Jim Schwartz's defense then proceeded to undress Shurmur...the opening drive was all the points they would get. We've seen that since he's been here as well - promising starts followed by struggles. It's like opponents are adjusting to what he's doing, and he's failing to adjust to the adjustment.
(Side thought - why did we hire an offensive coordinator to run our offense a day after he was completely dominated by a divisional rival in a huge game? Because he was "an adult"? Seriously?)
I wouldn't put a ton of weight into the Vikes/Philly game. The Vikings were spent after they pulled off the "Minnesota Miracle" the week prior against the Saints. Honestly, they were lucky to be there. And the vaunted Zimmer D was just as listless that day as well.
So that day rested more with the HC than Shurmur...IMV.
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In comment 14628701 AndyMilligan said:
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In comment 14628689 allstarjim said:
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In comment 14628283 Big_N said:
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This guy sounded like a clown on draft night. What has changed?
I think Jones Mania has deluded everyone into acknowledging or forgetting, this team has not won a lot of games this year just like last year. Has DJ proved he can play well against top defenses at this stage if ever? Is signing Tate for 20 mil supposed to make up for trading Odell for Peppers? Your rebuilding OK, send Eli home in the off season and retain some of your talent on D. He is obviously throwing a bunch of s--t against the wall and seeing if it sticks. He acquired a few good guys on D but come on - -this guy is ridiculous.
Such a huge post fail, it's embarrassing.
Question 1, answer is emphatic yes.
Question 2, Tate's deal is very reasonable and he's a good player. And further, the deal wasn't Odell for Peppers, it was Odell for Peppers, Dexter Lawrence, and Oshane Ximines, so yeah, it was a GREAT deal for the Giants.
This guy is ridiculous? He's basically killed it since he got here, the only missteps were a couple of free agency signings that didn't work out that almost everyone cheered when they were made, like Omameh. He traded JPP and he got back B.J. Hill (already a win) and Lauletta (you can't hit on 'em all) with the picks that came back in return.
He rightly let Collins walk. No GM bats 1.000, but he's greatly improved this team's future and present, and I think the team is in great hands.
You are answering Q#1 emphatically yes? Not me. I like Jones' potential but that is all he is right now. He hasn't demonstrated yet that he can learn from his mistakes and be a consistent thrower of the ball in tough situations. When he demonstrates these key traits then I will answer YES to #!.
You need to watch the film of the Vikings and Pats games and get back to me. It's an emphatic YES. He absolutely was a consistent thrower of the ball in tough situations. If anyone denies this, they don't know what they are watching or just haven't watched the film.
Well I am glad it was consistent. I am not even sure what that means ... seems to me it was a rough night the whole time. Question 1 is why this guy looked so clownish on draft night?
He could not answer basic questions about picking Jones at 6. He has shown a complete lack of any kind of plan for this team going forward. He mentioned DJ and Eli might be in a QB competition. Then he mentioned being in a Green Bay / Rogers situation. Rogers sat for 3 years. Reporters rightfully asked him again why Jones at 6 if you are not going to play him for 3 years. This guy is basically sounds like an idiot. He has a JV defense that are bad tacklers in a pro league! This isn't college football. Somehow letting Collins go was a good idea? Peppers, Dexter Lawrence, and Oshane Ximines is really a good trade? Bringing back Eli and having him ride pine for 10mil is a good idea? I mean this is like the twilight zone. oh yeah not to mention this team is 2-4. There's that also.
Dexter Lawrence is developing into a monster nose tackle so Odell for Dex straight up could be a win for Gettleman. A destroyer at nose tackle is always more valuable than a WR, even one as good as Odell was (and he’s not as good as he was after the injuries)
One of my favorite - well, when I gambled - angles: dome to outdoors...
IF a majority of his draft picks pan out, we'll have a decent start to a core. But, we've been in love with 1st/2nd year players, only to see them level out, or wash out.
FA has mostly been bad.
Until this team progresses, it's a bad team.
In a good scenario, the team takes a hockey stick progression up the charts, because right now we're in a slow improvement (being generous) phase.
At the current rate of progress, we're not going to be competitive for another 2 or 3 years, and that's IF the drafts pan out.
So far, I'm not filled with optimism. I'll believe it, when I see it.
Shurmur's offense seems to operate more effectively within the first dozen or so plays (which I presume are to some level scripted) than they do later on. The prime example of this was when his Minnesota offense marched to a TD in 9 plays to open the 2017 NFCC Game. Jim Schwartz's defense then proceeded to undress Shurmur...the opening drive was all the points they would get. We've seen that since he's been here as well - promising starts followed by struggles. It's like opponents are adjusting to what he's doing, and he's failing to adjust to the adjustment.
(Side thought - why did we hire an offensive coordinator to run our offense a day after he was completely dominated by a divisional rival in a huge game? Because he was "an adult"? Seriously?)
I’ve noticed this as well. Seems like Shurmur does a good job preparing but is completely lost after the first chess move and countermove.
Shurmur's offense seems to operate more effectively within the first dozen or so plays (which I presume are to some level scripted) than they do later on. The prime example of this was when his Minnesota offense marched to a TD in 9 plays to open the 2017 NFCC Game. Jim Schwartz's defense then proceeded to undress Shurmur...the opening drive was all the points they would get. We've seen that since he's been here as well - promising starts followed by struggles. It's like opponents are adjusting to what he's doing, and he's failing to adjust to the adjustment.
(Side thought - why did we hire an offensive coordinator to run our offense a day after he was completely dominated by a divisional rival in a huge game? Because he was "an adult"? Seriously?)
This is essentially the same point I was making above. Preparing for the first 10 plays and then having nothing after that is not a good plan.
Too Early, for D.Jones....I am hopeful, several encouraging traits but turnovers are adding up....more needs to be seen.
Too Early, for Gettleman....loved his 1st 2 drafts, but some mis-steps in FA. Now, cap has been cleared, let's see what happens in off-season 3....big jump is needed.
Bettcher defense must show improvement...he is on a hot seat.
Too Early, for D.Jones....I am hopeful, several encouraging traits but turnovers are adding up....more needs to be seen.
Too Early, for Gettleman....loved his 1st 2 drafts, but some mis-steps in FA. Now, cap has been cleared, let's see what happens in off-season 3....big jump is needed.
Bettcher defense must show improvement...he is on a hot seat.
Too early for everyone but Bettcher?
The only guy here with an alibi is Bettcher - the talent they've given him on D is putrid. For a guy who came in claiming he was going to bolster the lines, the OL has had a ton of FA money spent and draft picks, with little to show for it, and the only credible pass rusher on the team is Markus Golden.
And considering the guy helped deliver 2 SB titles, we can at least try to spell Bill Belichick's name right.
free agency predictive process is concerning though. He's doing fine though, you build in the draft.
And if the OL gives the proper time for Jones to throw
Then everybody is going to come out smelling like roses
If they can do that Jones will have more time to throw
Opening up Barkley and the running game more
And the receivers will get more separation
And Shurmur will look like a genius
I say they get one or two depending on the progress more years
but if by next year the Giants are not in the playoffs I think we can fairly call his tenure a disappointment. He wasn’t forced to do a total tear down and rebuild. He didn’t have to part with Beckham Collins Apple Kennard Okwara and Harrison all of whom are having productive seasons (and except for Harrison, in positions of need for this team).
Apple has been flagged the 2nd most of any DB, is by far the Saints weakest defensive starter and Collins has been a disappointment.
It isn't like we let go of Pro Bowlers.
TDS are not there but those can come in spurts for a guy like him.
He would be our leading receiver.
TDS are not there but those can come in spurts for a guy like him.
He would be our leading receiver.
And we'd still be 2-4. See Cleveland.
When will fans understand that talent isn't everything?
Odell Beckham: 6 games, 29 receptions, 436 yards, 1 TD
Does that really look like a productive season from a superstar that has played in four more games?
TDS are not there but those can come in spurts for a guy like him.
He would be our leading receiver.
IF he stays healthy. That losing continues and we'll see how long he stays healthy
Odell Beckham: 6 games, 29 receptions, 436 yards, 1 TD
Does that really look like a productive season from a superstar that has played in four more games?
Maybe Odell should get on the juice!
Collins always gets a lot of tackles. He also gets burned in coverage...he's basically a glorified LB...which is why he wasn't worth keeping.
Keep trying.
The two of them are combining for nearly 180 million dollars in salary.
The two of them are combining for nearly 180 million dollars in salary.
And if they were still here, the same people would be complaining that Gettleman overpaid to keep them.
The two of them are combining for nearly 180 million dollars in salary.
And the Giants suck - but that doesn't stop people from saying there are some very good players here.
Apple has been flagged the 2nd most of any DB, is by far the Saints weakest defensive starter and Collins has been a disappointment.
It isn't like we let go of Pro Bowlers.
Giants still can’t cover anyone and the O isn’t exactly a juggernaut
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Cleveland sucks. Beckham makes no difference. Washington sucks, and Collins makes no difference.
The two of them are combining for nearly 180 million dollars in salary.
And the Giants suck - but that doesn't stop people from saying there are some very good players here.
Love how you didn't address the second part of the post though.
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and Apple are having productive seasons??
Apple has been flagged the 2nd most of any DB, is by far the Saints weakest defensive starter and Collins has been a disappointment.
It isn't like we let go of Pro Bowlers.
Apple had a big forced fumble in the win over Seattle. The Saints secondary has been playing better each week and Apple has been receiving praise for his play. Collins has been better than Peppers this year.
Collins has not been better than Peppers. Thats a flat out lie.
No, if the blame belongs anywhere - its with Mara. Gettleman came into a situation where, yeah there was talent - but there was also a lot of dysfunction. You can't win in the NFL unless everyone is on the same page. Ask ANY player who's been in the league for a while and they will tell you the same thing. People expecting this shit to get cleaned up in 2 years with no salary cap space are absolutely delusional. Not every decision he's made has worked out but overall, he's doing a good job.
add in a forced fumble against Minny and he's had an impact.
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Again was to counter this idea that Gettleman had absolute garbage to work with and needed to completely rebuild and start from scratch. He decided to make the trades and cuts to build the team in his image which is his prerogative as the new guy but if by next year this team is still not in the playoffs, then at some point the blame needs to stop going to Reese and start going his way.
No, if the blame belongs anywhere - its with Mara. Gettleman came into a situation where, yeah there was talent - but there was also a lot of dysfunction. You can't win in the NFL unless everyone is on the same page. Ask ANY player who's been in the league for a while and they will tell you the same thing. People expecting this shit to get cleaned up in 2 years with no salary cap space are absolutely delusional. Not every decision he's made has worked out but overall, he's doing a good job.
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In comment 14629794 Les in TO said:
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Again was to counter this idea that Gettleman had absolute garbage to work with and needed to completely rebuild and start from scratch. He decided to make the trades and cuts to build the team in his image which is his prerogative as the new guy but if by next year this team is still not in the playoffs, then at some point the blame needs to stop going to Reese and start going his way.
No, if the blame belongs anywhere - its with Mara. Gettleman came into a situation where, yeah there was talent - but there was also a lot of dysfunction. You can't win in the NFL unless everyone is on the same page. Ask ANY player who's been in the league for a while and they will tell you the same thing. People expecting this shit to get cleaned up in 2 years with no salary cap space are absolutely delusional. Not every decision he's made has worked out but overall, he's doing a good job.
a lot of the dysfunction stemmed from frustration with years of losing and weak leadership by the coaching staff. If Gettleman brought in someone who could do a better job managing the alpha personalities in the locker room the temperature could have been cooled. You aren’t going to have 52 choir boys on your roster and expect to be successful . Instead they selected a good Xs and Os mind who is not as good with handling stronger personalities.
1. That dysfunction had already been established before Gettleman got here.
2. No one said anything about needing "52 choir boys". If thats in response to my comment about everyone being on the same page, you better build a long bridge.
3. As for Shurmur, he is the one who vouched for Beckham and wanted to work with him when he got here. Beckham was already sick of being here before Shurmur got here and no one was going to change that.
Say what you want about Shurmur. I have my doubts about him as the future head coach...but his players love him. There's no denying that.
The two of them are combining for nearly 180 million dollars in salary.
I agree with you on both of these players, but you've taken umbrage when I've used the same reasoning in the past:
The Giants suck. Barkley makes no difference.
Barkley isn't a pain in the ass in the lockerroom, and Barkley has not been paid in his second contract for his services. He's still making a lot, but as far as his second contract is concerned, he is still "cost controlled". Also unlike the other two, he actually is producing at a level commiserate with his pay currently. Probably exceeding it to this point.
Barkley isn't a pain in the ass in the lockerroom, and Barkley has not been paid in his second contract for his services. He's still making a lot, but as far as his second contract is concerned, he is still "cost controlled". Also unlike the other two, he actually is producing at a level commiserate with his pay currently. Probably exceeding it to this point.
That's fair, and I agree that he's closer to producing to his cost than those guys.
But if we're concerned about cost/benefit ratios on players (and we should be), then that leads to the inevitable question of what to do with Barkley in the next couple years. The wealthiest RB contract (Elliott) sees a cap hit that maxes out at $16.5M. I don't think any RB, including Barkley, is worth anything close to that.
So what do we do with Barkley in a couple years?
The Giants may look like a completely different team in two to three years, hopefully for the better. We'll have to see how much of that is attributed to Barkley if so.
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In comment 14629763 Britt in VA said:
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Cleveland sucks. Beckham makes no difference. Washington sucks, and Collins makes no difference.
The two of them are combining for nearly 180 million dollars in salary.
And the Giants suck - but that doesn't stop people from saying there are some very good players here.
Love how you didn't address the second part of the post though.
You mean the part where Gettleman pays OBJ a large chunk of that money that's currently occupying cap space? I thought that part was obvious.
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Cleveland sucks. Beckham makes no difference. Washington sucks, and Collins makes no difference.
The two of them are combining for nearly 180 million dollars in salary.
I agree with you on both of these players, but you've taken umbrage when I've used the same reasoning in the past:
The Giants suck. Barkley makes no difference.
Such a bs take. I guess JJ Watt makes no difference since he hasn’t won much since entering the NFL. How much of a difference did mike Strahan make from 95-2005? How about all those talented DLs the jets drafted lately? Where the fruit from that? Leonard Williams doesn’t make a difference I take it?
Sony Michel was a first rounder. Most good running games, shit most good teams have invested big time capital in the rb position. It’s all right there for the world to see, including you. The rb position is important. It is not a fungible position no matter how much BS some of you post. It took the giants over a decade to find a running back.
The minute Dallas drafted Elliot their offense went from ok to good or even very good and this coincided with dam replacing romo. And make NO mistake, dak is NO romo.
If you’re gonna insist on something, give us facts.
That said, if the Jones kid is good, it's worth it.
That said , the ilbs and free safetieS next draft. As opposed to shiney objects, that will tell.
You don’t like paying anyone. Go look around the league at all the highest paid players no matter the position, “buyer’s remorse everywhere” as you put it. You HATE paying QBs. You hate paying RBs. You certainly hate paying WRs and if you don’t, you will shortly once that player inevitably gets hurt.
It’s all a gamble. Paying guys is a gamble. Not paying guys is a gamble.
Picking Barkley was less of a gamble because everything about him screamed stud.
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Go look at the list of highest paid RBs in the league - buyer's remorse everywhere. The smart football move is to use him as much as we can this year and next, then trade him. But as we've seen with this organization the smart football move isn't necessarily the only consideration.
You don’t like paying anyone. Go look around the league at all the highest paid players no matter the position, “buyer’s remorse everywhere” as you put it. You HATE paying QBs. You hate paying RBs. You certainly hate paying WRs and if you don’t, you will shortly once that player inevitably gets hurt.
It’s all a gamble. Paying guys is a gamble. Not paying guys is a gamble.
Picking Barkley was less of a gamble because everything about him screamed stud.
This is a sport characterized by change. Injuries, coaching changes, off-field incidents, rules changes, scheme changes...so much about winning and losing is determined by something other than talent.
Creating a sustainable winning team in the NFL isn't about the players - it's about the coaching and management. The head coach, not the quarterback, is the face of the franchise and the biggest determinant of wins and losses.
In this environment of constant change it makes sense to keep your finances fluid EVERY year...not just for "windows". The way you do that is by not committing to any particular player with franchise level money unless that player has an unusually high impact on wins and losses. Those players are very few and far between in the NFL...there might be 5-10 of them...and the Giants don't have a single one.
The surest recipe for sustainable competitiveness in the modern NFL has two ingredients:
1. A highly competent coaching staff and management structure
2. A fluid financial philosophy that allows for relatively easy changes to the roster and the medium to long term plan.
I want the Giants to spend every penny of their cap space. Every penny. I just don't want them to commit a big chunk of it to any one player.
Sony Michel was a first rounder. Most good running games, shit most good teams have invested big time capital in the rb position. It’s all right there for the world to see, including you. The rb position is important. It is not a fungible position no matter how much BS some of you post. It took the giants over a decade to find a running back.
Sony Michel was New England's second first round pick in the 2018 draft. With the higher pick, they took Isaiah Wynn. And it's New England. Which means they have the luxury to invest a first rounder in a RB. We didn't have that luxury. We struggle to win 5 games a year. New England struggles to lose 5 games in a year...
The question is, who do you actually pay? If you say investing in the trenches on both sides of the ball, I agree that is smart. However, if you don't have any talent at any of the skills positions, what does it matter?
And then bring in the next widget... ;)
The question is, who do you actually pay? If you say investing in the trenches on both sides of the ball, I agree that is smart. However, if you don't have any talent at any of the skills positions, what does it matter?
There are a couple examples on our team. The Golden and Remmers signings have worked out. They are playing a lot of downs, and Golden in particular is earning a payday elsewhere that's going to net us a comp pick. That's the model. Sign FAs to prove it deals that earn them a contract on another team.
If you look at Spotrac, there were probably two or three dozen free agents that signed these types of contracts around the NFL. These are the types of guys we should be signing to fill in the gap left by our draft picks.
Take that approach for there or four years and you'll see to things happen:
- Our drafts will improve
- Our salary cap will improve, allowing us to be able to pay elite money to an elite player of the opportunity arises
And then bring in the next widget... ;)
its not a bad model...you just need a guy like Bill B to make it work
How does this model work out when you are consistently turning over the roster year over year with FA's on prove it deals and when they do go out and prove, you don't resign them.
I know you devalue the RB position, but if Barkley stays healthy until his rookie contract is up and keeps performing at a high level, that is not considered elite or him an elite player? You said above how you would run him to the ground and trade him before his contract is up.
In your opinion, who in the NFL right now is elite in your eyes and be worth elite money?
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Pay the lowest possible wages, coach the piss out the workers, and when they don't perform or act up, ship them the hell out!
And then bring in the next widget... ;)
its not a bad model...you just need a guy like Bill B to make it work
But BB has several luxuries:
-- He is a football savant.
-- He controls ALL of the football decisions.
-- He shops and cooks the groceries.
-- He has the most stabilized QB situation in NFL history.
Or you could eschew drafting an extraordinary talent at 2 because his position is fungible and you’re worried about the value in re-signing this player five years later. Crazyness.
- Our salary cap will improve, allowing us to be able to pay elite money to an elite player of the opportunity arises
This feels like projection. We've got nothing to go on so far that they have this kind of foresight with the cap. They've signed some headscratching and significant contracts.
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In comment 14630890 bw in dc said:
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Pay the lowest possible wages, coach the piss out the workers, and when they don't perform or act up, ship them the hell out!
And then bring in the next widget... ;)
its not a bad model...you just need a guy like Bill B to make it work
But BB has several luxuries:
-- He is a football savant.
-- He controls ALL of the football decisions.
-- He shops and cooks the groceries.
-- He has the most stabilized QB situation in NFL history.
I think we are saying the same thing. It take an extraordinary situation to pull this off
Ten Ton - I'm talking more about an ideal scenario rather than what this front office is actually doing. I don't think this front office is capable or even interested in putting together anything that's sustainable long term.
ron mexico & bw - I actually think that such a system is more forgiving of mistakes and doesn't necessarily require the person or people running it to possess anything like Belichick's genius. Look at the Giants now...Jonathan Stewart's completely flamed out as a signing, but the impact was small because his contract was small. On the flip side, Nate Solder isn't living up to his deal and the consequences are more severe. If we restrict FA signings to Stewart level of cost, we can make more of them with less risk. Some will bust, one or two may hit, but we'll be more able to pivot in real time to deal with the results. There's not much we can do about Solder until after next season...so that will have probably end up having been 3 years of underperformance from a significant contract. We're obviously not going to recreate what Belichick has going on, but there are pieces we can emulate that would be improvements over the status quo the Giants are currently operating under.
figgy - The sustainability comes from annually churning through your FAs, which avoids dead money and is more likely to create draft picks through the comp pick process. To go back to the Golden example, we're getting a great deal paying him $3.2M this season. If he keeps this up someone might pay him $10M+ over 3 or 4 years...not such a great deal. Instead of paying him that, we'd be better off letting him walk and collecting the comp pick. Repeat that process over a few years and we'll have more draft picks to build up the actual foundation of the team.
As for which players around the NFL I think are actually worth the elite money they're being (or will soon be) paid, there aren't many. Off the top of my head the conversation includes Mahomes, Wilson, Rodgers (maybe), Donald, Mack, Watson, Tyron Smith, Zack Martin, Quenton Nelson, Von Miller (maybe), Bobby Wagner, Luke Keuchly, Dont'a Hightower. A few of those guys are maybes, I'm probably missing a couple. But I'm not missing anyone on the Giants.
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You are always saying how you wouldn't pay this guy or that guy and that he would be "smart football".
The question is, who do you actually pay? If you say investing in the trenches on both sides of the ball, I agree that is smart. However, if you don't have any talent at any of the skills positions, what does it matter?
There are a couple examples on our team. The Golden and Remmers signings have worked out. They are playing a lot of downs, and Golden in particular is earning a payday elsewhere that's going to net us a comp pick. That's the model. Sign FAs to prove it deals that earn them a contract on another team.
If you look at Spotrac, there were probably two or three dozen free agents that signed these types of contracts around the NFL. These are the types of guys we should be signing to fill in the gap left by our draft picks.
Take that approach for there or four years and you'll see to things happen:
- Our drafts will improve
- Our salary cap will improve, allowing us to be able to pay elite money to an elite player of the opportunity arises
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7-15 so far with the Giants. Until they're winning games regularly I'm not giving any credit to anyone. I'm not saying they can't get there, but I'm certainly not "drinking the kool aid" yet and I don't want to give them half a decade before they I expect them to be actually winning game as opposed to just "hanging tough" and "playing hard" while losing.
Fassel won coach of the year his very first year and won the NFC East (1997).
Coughlin went 11-5 in his 2nd year with this team and from 2005-2011 proceeded to make the playoffs 5 of 7 years (including a year they went 10-6 and MISSED the playoffs).
I have no idea why people are so content to say "we have to be patient, of course we're going to lose the first 3-4 years of this regime, because this is a 'serious' and 'real' rebuild" or whatever.
Why are you comparing? What part of virtually complete roster turnover are you not getting? THAT takes time..
I'm simply saying that I'm not giving any credit to anyone whatsoever until there are a material number of Ws in the W/L column. That's all I'm saying. The reason I'm comparing is to remind Giants fans that we once had a high standard for this team and the results of NYG coaches, we expected results early in the past and we've gotten results early with previous coaches. I'm simply saying there's no reason why we should have to wait 4 years for a regime to be "competitive". Complete roster turnover is fine, but if DG is making the right decisions and the "new" roster is indeed talented and fit to Shurmur's liking as a coach, then we should see results in the form of actual WINS in the near future, not the distant future.