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Dave Gettleman: has he made a believer of you?

Don in DC : 10/14/2019 11:23 am
I am fully drinking the Kool-Aid.

Gettleman's first two drafts have been very strong. While his free agency signings have not been nearly as meritorious, he has been dealing with a tiny budget and a roster with more holes than substance.

In 2018 he added multiple immediate contributors in Barkley (all-world talent), Hernandez (the best OL we have drafted in recent memory), Carter, Hill and McIntosh. All of these guys are getting significant playing time and, I would argue, out-playing their draft positions.

2019 was even better so far. After trading OBJ (which I maintain was addition by subtraction) for Peppers (immediate significant contributor) and 1st and 3rd round picks, he added Jones (future of the franchise at QB), Lawrence (immediate stud DT), Baker (coming on strong at CB after a rough start), Ximines (immediately productive contributor at EDGE), Connelly (was looking like the best inside LB we have had in the last few years before injury), and Darius Slayton (immediate significant contributor at WR).

He signed Markus Golden, who has turned out to be an incredible value signing at EDGE. He also traded Vernon (expensive injury prone underachiever) for Kevin Zeitler (one of the best OGs in the league). That's an outstanding value in return for a guy who frankly was not worth his contract.

That is a dramatic improvement in the overall talent level of this roster in two years, all while clearing a fuckton of cap space for 2020 and beyond.

If this team has another draft class in 2020 of similar quality to the classes of 2018 and 2019, and makes good use of the enormous amount of cap space it will have in 2020, the Giants can absolutely compete at a high level next year and for the next few years thereafter. The pieces are coming together.

The arrow is clearly pointing up for the first time since Accorsi retired. I am all in for Gettleman.

What say you?
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I approve also. This is a serious rebuild and it takes time.  
No Where Man : 10/14/2019 11:25 am : link
I like the course we're on...
Mixed  
TD : 10/14/2019 11:29 am : link
Not there yet but I like how his drafts have gone minus the RB at 2. He needs to do better in free agency. He’s been horrible there. Worse than Reese in free agency thus far. But if Jones is the goods, all that may be forgiven.
Thus far, his drafts have been good.  
SFGFNCGiantsFan : 10/14/2019 11:30 am : link
But some of his FA signings-Solder, Omameh, etc.-have been head scratchers. Too early too tell.
Need a larger sample size.  
Gmen703 : 10/14/2019 11:30 am : link
Some moves look good...others leave a lot to be desired.
There are encouraging signs  
Oscar : 10/14/2019 11:31 am : link
But it’s far from a slam dunk. Jury is still out on Jones for one, that’s the one decision of them all that really matters. He’s shown flashes but he’s also looked dreadful in spots so we’ll have to wait and see. I am optimistic but you can’t check that one off as a win or a great decision yet.

Shurmur was a questionable hire but that’s at least partially an owner decision, not just DG.

Bringing Eli back made very little sense from a cap standpoint, but at least that’s a short term mistake with some upside of Eli mentoring DJ.

Saquon is polarizing. He is a special talent but it’s the most fungible position in the sport, any number of players can come in and give you good solid production at running back. Not all-world production, but you don’t really need that. I like Saquon and he’s a great talent but it’s more of a question of resource allocation. If Darnold becomes a great player and Jones is average or worse it’s a catastrophic mistake. Jury is out.

Encouraging stuff from Lawrence, Hernandez, Ximines so far. The Beckham trade looks decent at the moment. The additions in the secondary are critical but too early to call it.
Not yet.  
Mike from Ohio : 10/14/2019 11:32 am : link
The drafts seem to have been very good and he seems to have been right about barkley and Jones which are the two biggest decisions he has made.

His free agent signings have been a mixed bag at best. We are paying Solder a ton of money for at best for average tackle play. When Barkley went down there was no attempt to put anyone behind Gallman to help out the rookie QB and Hilliman was a disaster. The jury is still out on whether Peppers was really a great get from the OBJ trade. Not sure why Bethea is here. Golden seems to have been a good signing so far.

I am much less sold on Shurmur. I get the sense he is just hanging on by his nails until things get bad enough to let him go. He doesn't feel like a long term solution.
He clearly was overpaying to try to do SOMETHING  
Don in DC : 10/14/2019 11:32 am : link
to shore up the O-line when he signed Solder and Omameh, and overpaid for mediocre talent as a result. Desperation makes for bad short-term decisions, and it has showed.

But in his moves aimed at building long term value and talent, I think he has been spot on.
I thought they overpaid for Solder...  
Torrag : 10/14/2019 11:32 am : link
but they had extremely limited options given the state of the O-line they inherited. That aside they've done a good job overall.

Ultimately DG will be judged on his HC hire and the QB he drafted. I'm worried about the first choice and optimistic about the second.

Next season they get out from under the shadow of the Reese debacle in terms of players they ditched and the cap ramifications of that. They'll have money to spend to augment the roster talent. Year 3 for DG's program will inform us all on how well he's been doing.
He is dealing with a tiny budget  
Jimmy Googs : 10/14/2019 11:32 am : link
and chose to use a whole lot of it on Solder, Eli and a few other guys not bringing in any value.

But yes I am believer that DG is better than the last General Manager the team had.

Whether I am believer he is a guy that can bring the NYG all the way back...just doesn't feel right to say yes.
And I have to admit  
Don in DC : 10/14/2019 11:34 am : link
I am already a believer that Jones will be an outstanding QB for us for the next decade. I admit that I may be jumping the gun (to say the least) on that belief -- but I am convinced.
Vernon's Stats  
djstat : 10/14/2019 11:35 am : link
11 Solo Tackles
4 Assists
1 Sack

Through 6 games

Base Salary for 2019: $15.25 Million

Had he stayed here, cap number would have been $19.25 Million. Glad he was traded
Dave is  
broadbandz : 10/14/2019 11:35 am : link
good at drafting dogshit at signing free agents. Which is scary because that is going to be the next big step with the cap openings he gets next year.
some good, some not  
mattlawson : 10/14/2019 11:36 am : link
I think his drafts have been overall really good. some FA signings have not been all that great however I remain optimistic.

the team overall looks like we can be competitive in another 2 years.
No  
Greg from LI : 10/14/2019 11:36 am : link
The team still sucks ass
As a Giant fan, I like that he's got a personality.  
barens : 10/14/2019 11:37 am : link
I still think Reese get undeserved criticism, but I do prefer Gettleman's pressers by a mile. Highly entertaining.
Nope.  
Klaatu : 10/14/2019 11:37 am : link
Next question.
I believe the team is headed in the right direction  
ij_reilly : 10/14/2019 11:37 am : link
Huge improvements: team "culture" and the draft.

Shortcomings: signing free agents; head coach selection.

So I think the team is headed in the right direction, but I think reaching Super Bowl caliber is questionable; because I'm not sure this is the head coach who can get the team to the promised land.
one other thing  
mattlawson : 10/14/2019 11:38 am : link
I like that if things arent working out, they cut bait and move on. That to me is a cultural change that has been needed. I felt Reese was stubborn to the point of thinking the team was gaslighting us.
He's got to clean up UFA usage  
JonC : 10/14/2019 11:38 am : link
I get the big ones are structured to end when they expect to have young prospects ready to backfill, but it's ugly.

I don't think this is the coaching staff to lead us to contender level. That's a big decision on tap, and I hope if DG believes the same that he's decisive in making changes.


I've always felt he was competent but not outstanding by any means.  
bceagle05 : 10/14/2019 11:40 am : link
We'll probably need an outstanding GM to ultimately get us out of this mess. Hopefully he's learned that less is more on the free agent market - that'll be a good step forward this offseason.
Regarding Solder...  
EricJ : 10/14/2019 11:40 am : link
we have to realize there was not much available in free agency that off season. A lot of people here said we should not have signed him, but I have not seen many respond with viable alternatives from that off season.

Not just viable alternatives, but guys we could actually sign. Remember, free agency is a two way street. Players must also WANT to sign here not only for the money but also for what this team has to offer.

When DG took this team over, I would be willing to bet that not many free agents wanted to play here. This franchise has been a disaster. Ever wonder why Whitworth did not sign here? We rarely know about the players any GM tried to sign but is unsuccessful...or why it did not work out.
just because you see young guys out there  
bluepepper : 10/14/2019 11:42 am : link
and occasionally making a play doesn't mean they were great picks and are long term answers. Saquon, Jones, Hernandez and Lawrence are the guys who've stamped themselves so far but the rest have a lot to prove. Some of them are just out there because we have no one else and any guy who gets drafted is usually capable of flashing. Jerrel Jernigan flashed for gods sakes.

I am fine with writing this year off as rebuilding but next year is year 3. If we don't start seeing W's on the board then no matter what BBI thinks of his drafts he should be on thin ice.
Agree  
JerryNicklebag : 10/14/2019 11:43 am : link
His drafts have been surprisingly strong. On the free agency side he needs to have a good year this off-season with all of the cap space he will have at his disposal. I would think they go get one, maybe two big names and then spend wisely to upgrade as many positions as possible before the draft.
Not yet  
ron mexico : 10/14/2019 11:44 am : link
Not calling for him to be replaced, but the team needs to win with some regularity vs quality opponents before I'm a believer.
I think he's been pretty solid - probably better than he was in CAR  
Eric on Li : 10/14/2019 11:44 am : link
in terms of some of the major areas of focus I'd give him some real positive marks. He's undeniably improved the offense, OL, and seemingly found the QB of the future. A big part of all 3 has been good drafting. And he's cleaned up the cap.

On the negative side the defense is still a work in progress along with the entire coaching staff. His FA moves have been mixed, but that's true of every team (including the Pats).

He has assembled most of the foundation that will determine his future already (Jones, Barkley, Dex, secondary) but his evaluations of the coaching staff and moves in offseason #3 will be just as pivotal. No excuses to not be a 9+ win team next year.
Are you kidding  
Big_N : 10/14/2019 11:45 am : link
This guy sounded like a clown on draft night. What has changed?

I think Jones Mania has deluded everyone into acknowledging or forgetting, this team has not won a lot of games this year just like last year. Has DJ proved he can play well against top defenses at this stage if ever? Is signing Tate for 20 mil supposed to make up for trading Odell for Peppers? Your rebuilding OK, send Eli home in the off season and retain some of your talent on D. He is obviously throwing a bunch of s--t against the wall and seeing if it sticks. He acquired a few good guys on D but come on - -this guy is ridiculous.
Incomplete - too soon to tell  
arniefez : 10/14/2019 11:46 am : link
some good, some bad but still concerns about the game having passed him by.
I'd give him a B- so far  
giants#1 : 10/14/2019 11:46 am : link
Positives
Drafting - picking 2nd and 6th overall certainly helped, but the depth of his drafts have been outstanding.

Owns mistakes - doesn't compound mistakes by giving guys numerous chances. For example, took a chance on Omameh and yet didn't hesitate to cut him halfway thru the season when it was clear he wasn't the answer (or even a stopgap).

Internal evaluations - you can argue he erred in extending Beckham to start, but it's understandable for a GM/HC to want to evaluate things from the inside when a talent is that good. I think they made the correct decision after 1 year to then trade him and got good value in return. Also, whether you like Peppers or not, letting Collins walk for $16M per was indisputably the correct decision. I'd put the Apple and Snacks trades as pluses in this column too.

Negatives
Free agency - hasn't had a ton of cap space and was all but forced to overpay for Solder due to the state of the OL, but outside of Golden, most of his low/mid level FAs have been disappointing (Stewart, Bethea, Martin, Omameh, etc).

As others have said, he needs another draft with 3+ starters and a strong free agency, which could be staying away from overpays (e.g. Solder, Vernon, etc) as much as anything.
RE: just because you see young guys out there  
giants#1 : 10/14/2019 11:49 am : link
In comment 14628270 bluepepper said:
Quote:
and occasionally making a play doesn't mean they were great picks and are long term answers. Saquon, Jones, Hernandez and Lawrence are the guys who've stamped themselves so far but the rest have a lot to prove. Some of them are just out there because we have no one else and any guy who gets drafted is usually capable of flashing. Jerrel Jernigan flashed for gods sakes.

I am fine with writing this year off as rebuilding but next year is year 3. If we don't start seeing W's on the board then no matter what BBI thinks of his drafts he should be on thin ice.


I think Hill's proven to be a solid starting DE in a 34 and Carter's shown enough to be valuable OLB depth at worse and a starting caliber OLB with upside at best.

He's very good..  
FatMan in Charlotte : 10/14/2019 11:51 am : link
at minimizing cap allocation for players he can move away from and he's been very good at drafting.

The oddity is that he was probably a little better in Carolina at getting value from FA's and his drafts were OK. He's been pretty poor at FA here.
RE: He's got to clean up UFA usage  
Zeke's Alibi : 10/14/2019 11:52 am : link
In comment 14628257 JonC said:
Quote:
I get the big ones are structured to end when they expect to have young prospects ready to backfill, but it's ugly.

I don't think this is the coaching staff to lead us to contender level. That's a big decision on tap, and I hope if DG believes the same that he's decisive in making changes.



I agree. I've rewatched two games, the Cowboys game and the Pats game. The Cowboys game was tough to tell because Eli just refuses to pull the trigger down the field at this point. However, there was a lot not to like schematically in the Pats game. I don't have all the information, but some basic scheme shit that was leaving me scratching me head and I'm not talking about getting outschemed by BB. I'll give him a pass for not having an NFL RB for now. Add to that his questionable game management, he leaves me with a whole bunch of questions and I'm leaning further and further to cutting bait.

One good thing about DG is we know he isn't sentimental. PS is starting to feel like a hire that was brought in to set the ship straight aka bringing an adult into the room. Unless the Eagles finagle a trade for Ramsey there is no reason we shouldn't be in the hunt for the East crown in December with two games against the Eagles in the last five weeks. The Eagles have gotten old and Dallas looks like a rudderless ship right now. I'd give him a pass if we don't win because of the dead cap this year, but there really is no reason we shouldn't be talking about winning the East in December.
RE: He clearly was overpaying to try to do SOMETHING  
mrvax : 10/14/2019 11:52 am : link
In comment 14628234 Don in DC said:
Quote:
to shore up the O-line when he signed Solder and Omameh, and overpaid for mediocre talent as a result. Desperation makes for bad short-term decisions, and it has showed.

But in his moves aimed at building long term value and talent, I think he has been spot on.


I agree with the good drafts and so-so FA signings. I wonder, does anyone know if Connelly is due back this year? It would be a shame if he's out until next year.
No, not a believer yet  
sb from NYT Forum : 10/14/2019 11:52 am : link
He gets an incomplete from me. Jones and Lawrence look good, Saquon obviously is great, but his FA signings have been really bad. And the roster construction this year has been very strange.

Also apart from Saquon, Jones and Lawrence, I’m not ready to proclaim the last two drafts as “great.” I don’t think using 6 picks on 4 DBs this last draft was a smart use of resources when the team has so many holes at other positions.

I’d give him an A for the work in the drafts based on very early  
BSIMatt : 10/14/2019 11:53 am : link
Returns and limited data, but their have been a lot of positive signs for many first and second year players. Free agency has been mixed bag, though this years moves at least seem better than last years moves. Based on drafting track record and free agency track record I’d prefer the Giants to find ways to obtain more picks and be active in the drafts than be players in free agency.
Yes. Both of his drafts were very good. I don't remember the last  
Ira : 10/14/2019 11:54 am : link
time we had two such good drafts in a row. His free agent signings and trades in 2018 weren't so good, but he's done better in 2019. The Beckham trade and the Vernon trade were excellent as was signing Golden. The Tate signing was ok. The Bethea signing didn't work out. So, I think Dave is a very good gm and we're on our way back to contention.
I can’t help but think that he was rushed into the 2018 FA signings  
Ivan15 : 10/14/2019 11:54 am : link
When he was Director of Pro Personnel for the Giants, he had a lot more time to evaluate players personally. He doesn’t have that luxury now, and it took some time to set up a department and staff.

Obviously Bethea was a 2019 mistake but I think he did okay with the trades and the other FA pickups. Remmers was a stopgap and only on BBI was Remmers looked at as a key acquisition.

I give him one more crack at free agency.
RE: I approve also. This is a serious rebuild and it takes time.  
santacruzom : 10/14/2019 11:54 am : link
In comment 14628222 No Where Man said:
Quote:
I like the course we're on...


What still concerns me is how reluctant Gettleman seemed to even admit that a rebuild was necessary. Maybe that was merely a media/PR strategy. But it does make me wonder how accurately he can assess the state of the team at any given moment.

For example, the way he and Shurmur celebrated the end of last season was concerning.
RE: He's very good..  
Zeke's Alibi : 10/14/2019 11:55 am : link
In comment 14628300 FatMan in Charlotte said:
Quote:
at minimizing cap allocation for players he can move away from and he's been very good at drafting.

The oddity is that he was probably a little better in Carolina at getting value from FA's and his drafts were OK. He's been pretty poor at FA here.


I'm just speculating but it is quite possible that since than he realizes more of his attention needs to be given to the draft than FA now. Remember he was a pro personal guy for a long time. DG seems like a guy that learns from his mistakes and isn't afraid to say he made them, at least privately and through his actions.
RE: RE: He clearly was overpaying to try to do SOMETHING  
Don in DC : 10/14/2019 11:56 am : link
In comment 14628305 mrvax said:
Quote:

I agree with the good drafts and so-so FA signings. I wonder, does anyone know if Connelly is due back this year? It would be a shame if he's out until next year.


He ruptures his ACL. Definitely out for the year. Already placed on IR.
RE: He's got to clean up UFA usage  
santacruzom : 10/14/2019 11:59 am : link
In comment 14628257 JonC said:
Quote:


I don't think this is the coaching staff to lead us to contender level. That's a big decision on tap, and I hope if DG believes the same that he's decisive in making changes.



On that note, my dad and I were discussing Robert Saleh (9'ers D coordinator) last night and whether he'll be a head coaching candidate as early as 2020. He's an incredibly enthusiastic young coordinator with a really interesting background. We may be incorrect, but we both figured he's the kind of candidate Gettleman will never touch.
RE: He clearly was overpaying to try to do SOMETHING  
Joeguido : 10/14/2019 12:00 pm : link
In comment 14628234 Don in DC said:
Quote:
to shore up the O-line when he signed Solder and Omameh, and overpaid for mediocre talent as a result. Desperation makes for bad short-term decisions, and it has showed.

But in his moves aimed at building long term value and talent, I think he has been spot on.


I agree with his drafts being very solid but the free agency is so/so but I also think some of the signings, trades, cuts and all his other moves were geared towards character guys he wanted to get the locker room back to a team first mentality. Let's Go New York Football Giants
Very average GM  
HomerJones45 : 10/14/2019 12:00 pm : link
He's had a few hits and he's had some major misses.

Philosophically, he did no evaluating of who to keep and who to get rid of. The result has been he is trying to fill spots where he already possibly had players. Gettlemen has created more holes than he has filled. One would think that he would use constant churning of the roster as a way to find some wheat but then he goes and signs guys like Stupar and Benny Fowler who are obvious chaff.

Let's challenge some assumptions. Is Zeitler one of the top guards in the League? He's injured now and is not playing great. Hernandez has struggled this year. Remmers is, predictably, not a very good tackle. Solder has struggled. Halapio has, also predictably, stunk. Barkley covers a lot of sins for that o-line.

Also, our linebackers blow (and we are trying to run a 3-4), the receiving corp is to be kind, sub par, the DB's are horrible and the safeties suck. There are still a lot of holes, some of them self-created.

He's an average-below average GM although compared to Reese, he's George Young. He has found some guys like Slayton and Hernandez who might be players. Jones might be a player- we'll see how he responds over the next few weeks now that Lil Bill has established the formula to defend him. Lawrence might be too although the Pats running qb sneaks over him 7 times might be a warning sign on some limitations.

A lot of you are making the mistake of fans of bad teams- seeing "potential" in average joe players for sticking out on a limited roster and seeing "hustle" or "activity" as a substitute for ability. Golden is an example. He's got a few sacks but makes few other plays, can't defend the pass and gets run over against the run. There's a reason the talent-starved Cardinals gave up on him.
RE: RE: He's very good..  
BSIMatt : 10/14/2019 12:00 pm : link
In comment 14628314 Zeke's Alibi said:
Quote:
In comment 14628300 FatMan in Charlotte said:


Quote:


at minimizing cap allocation for players he can move away from and he's been very good at drafting.

The oddity is that he was probably a little better in Carolina at getting value from FA's and his drafts were OK. He's been pretty poor at FA here.



I'm just speculating but it is quite possible that since than he realizes more of his attention needs to be given to the draft than FA now. Remember he was a pro personal guy for a long time. DG seems like a guy that learns from his mistakes and isn't afraid to say he made them, at least privately and through his actions.


I actually agree with this last part, about making mistakes and not being afraid to move on from them quickly. I feel like Reese was opposite in nature. I can’t imagine Reese signing a guy like Omameh and cutting him in season.
RE: Regarding Solder...  
santacruzom : 10/14/2019 12:01 pm : link
In comment 14628265 EricJ said:
Quote:
Ever wonder why Whitworth did not sign here? We rarely know about the players any GM tried to sign but is unsuccessful...or why it did not work out.


Well, the Giants were coming of an 11-5 season prior to Whitworth's free agency while the Rams had been 4-12, so I doubt it had anything to do with team reputation or success.
Answer to Don  
5BowlsSoon : 10/14/2019 12:02 pm : link
Honestly, the one decision he may have to make to get me 100% on board is the hiring of our HC.

I will give Shurmur this year to show me I can trust him, but so far, based on the 1.5 years we’ve seen, I’m not wowed by this choice. I see flaws that concern me. I hope they go away.
No  
Go Terps : 10/14/2019 12:05 pm : link
We'd be better if with him running the college scouting department. Besides the draft he hasn't done much well. The coaching staff, FA signings, and lack of data analytics usage (where are the game management analysts on staff?) have all been poor. There only thing saving him is the drafts, though the strategy behind the Barkley pick was flawed as well.
RE: He's very good..  
HomerJones45 : 10/14/2019 12:06 pm : link
In comment 14628300 FatMan in Charlotte said:
Quote:
at minimizing cap allocation for players he can move away from and he's been very good at drafting.

The oddity is that he was probably a little better in Carolina at getting value from FA's and his drafts were OK. He's been pretty poor at FA here.
Who cares. They don't hand out the Price Waterhouse Trophy at the Super Bowl to the team with the best cap allocation, and it's easy to allocate cap when you get rid of everyone making over minimum wage. Other than putting money in the owners' pockets (which makes him a popular figure with the owners), this is not an argument for a GM.

We will see on his drafts. Lets not make the Reese-Odell mistake with Gettlemen-Barkley. So far, these "very good" drafts have not translated into much on the field beyond keeping fans amused.
RE: He's very good..  
giants#1 : 10/14/2019 12:07 pm : link
In comment 14628300 FatMan in Charlotte said:
Quote:
at minimizing cap allocation for players he can move away from and he's been very good at drafting.

The oddity is that he was probably a little better in Carolina at getting value from FA's and his drafts were OK. He's been pretty poor at FA here.


One could argue he played a big part in the Giants SB runs by helping acquire talented, undervalued FAs. He was pro personnel director when they brought in:
McKenzie
Pierce
Plaxico
O'Hara
Hixon
Rolle
Boley
Canty
Robbins
Mitchell
Madison
etc
This..  
FatMan in Charlotte : 10/14/2019 12:09 pm : link
is odd considering the OL play has been better than last year:

Quote:
Let's challenge some assumptions. Is Zeitler one of the top guards in the League? He's injured now and is not playing great. Hernandez has struggled this year. Remmers is, predictably, not a very good tackle. Solder has struggled. Halapio has, also predictably, stunk. Barkley covers a lot of sins for that o-line.


This reads as if it hasn't improved at all. Not surprisingly, the most pessimistic take is floated.
He got the two most important  
ryanmkeane : 10/14/2019 12:10 pm : link
picks correct and his first 2 drafts seem to be very good. Time for a third good draft in a row coupled with 2-3 good FA signings, and this team will be cooking.
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