I am fully drinking the Kool-Aid.
Gettleman's first two drafts have been very strong. While his free agency signings have not been nearly as meritorious, he has been dealing with a tiny budget and a roster with more holes than substance.
In 2018 he added multiple immediate contributors in Barkley (all-world talent), Hernandez (the best OL we have drafted in recent memory), Carter, Hill and McIntosh. All of these guys are getting significant playing time and, I would argue, out-playing their draft positions.
2019 was even better so far. After trading OBJ (which I maintain was addition by subtraction) for Peppers (immediate significant contributor) and 1st and 3rd round picks, he added Jones (future of the franchise at QB), Lawrence (immediate stud DT), Baker (coming on strong at CB after a rough start), Ximines (immediately productive contributor at EDGE), Connelly (was looking like the best inside LB we have had in the last few years before injury), and Darius Slayton (immediate significant contributor at WR).
He signed Markus Golden, who has turned out to be an incredible value signing at EDGE. He also traded Vernon (expensive injury prone underachiever) for Kevin Zeitler (one of the best OGs in the league). That's an outstanding value in return for a guy who frankly was not worth his contract.
That is a dramatic improvement in the overall talent level of this roster in two years, all while clearing a fuckton of cap space for 2020 and beyond.
If this team has another draft class in 2020 of similar quality to the classes of 2018 and 2019, and makes good use of the enormous amount of cap space it will have in 2020, the Giants can absolutely compete at a high level next year and for the next few years thereafter. The pieces are coming together.
The arrow is clearly pointing up for the first time since Accorsi retired. I am all in for Gettleman.
What say you?
Fassel won coach of the year his very first year and won the NFC East (1997).
Coughlin went 11-5 in his 2nd year with this team and from 2005-2011 proceeded to make the playoffs 5 of 7 years (including a year they went 10-6 and MISSED the playoffs).
I have no idea why people are so content to say "we have to be patient, of course we're going to lose the first 3-4 years of this regime, because this is a 'serious' and 'real' rebuild" or whatever.
Why are you comparing? What part of virtually complete roster turnover are you not getting? THAT takes time..
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In comment 14628689 allstarjim said:
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In comment 14628283 Big_N said:
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This guy sounded like a clown on draft night. What has changed?
I think Jones Mania has deluded everyone into acknowledging or forgetting, this team has not won a lot of games this year just like last year. Has DJ proved he can play well against top defenses at this stage if ever? Is signing Tate for 20 mil supposed to make up for trading Odell for Peppers? Your rebuilding OK, send Eli home in the off season and retain some of your talent on D. He is obviously throwing a bunch of s--t against the wall and seeing if it sticks. He acquired a few good guys on D but come on - -this guy is ridiculous.
Such a huge post fail, it's embarrassing.
Question 1, answer is emphatic yes.
Question 2, Tate's deal is very reasonable and he's a good player. And further, the deal wasn't Odell for Peppers, it was Odell for Peppers, Dexter Lawrence, and Oshane Ximines, so yeah, it was a GREAT deal for the Giants.
This guy is ridiculous? He's basically killed it since he got here, the only missteps were a couple of free agency signings that didn't work out that almost everyone cheered when they were made, like Omameh. He traded JPP and he got back B.J. Hill (already a win) and Lauletta (you can't hit on 'em all) with the picks that came back in return.
He rightly let Collins walk. No GM bats 1.000, but he's greatly improved this team's future and present, and I think the team is in great hands.
You are answering Q#1 emphatically yes? Not me. I like Jones' potential but that is all he is right now. He hasn't demonstrated yet that he can learn from his mistakes and be a consistent thrower of the ball in tough situations. When he demonstrates these key traits then I will answer YES to #!.
You need to watch the film of the Vikings and Pats games and get back to me. It's an emphatic YES. He absolutely was a consistent thrower of the ball in tough situations. If anyone denies this, they don't know what they are watching or just haven't watched the film.
I watched those games. He was bad against the Vikes and he was awful in the Pats game. I think you are unclear about what you are seeing. He made poor decisions and he was largely inaccurate. He made a few nice throws but not enough to overcome his poor performance. I am sure he can do better, but if he can't, then plain and simple, he is not the guy.
- mocking his 4th round rookie QB to get back at the media, then cutting that player to keep a sub-journeyman 3rd stringer that's "good in the room"
- repeatedly referencing the 3-13 team he inherited
- ducking Mike Francesa because Francesa was honest with him
- failing to properly utilize our best player
- being completely unaware how to manage a football game on Sundays
What has Shurmur done well? What can we point to that is concrete and isn't blaming Reese or groundlessly saying he "deserves" more time?
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McAdoo's offense wasn't so much predictable as it was populated by poor players. The offensive line was putrid and Eli's eye level had lowered, which shaped the offense into a short drop, quick pass offense.
And let's be clear on Shurmur...since he's been here his offensive playcalling and management has been horrendous. Setting aside for the moment that he doesn't know when to call timeout or when to punt/go for it, this is the same guy that has underused Barkley in crucial possessions. Remember, he saw fit to run the ball with Penny on 3rd and 1 and roll Eli out on 4th and 1 in Dallas.
The only benefit a Shurmur supporter can point to is that he can "develop" Jones, and the actual meaning/relevance of that is nebulous at best.
And look, it's not too late to have a season. We're 1 game back with 10 to play. If the Giants turn it around and win the division at 10-6 or 9-7 I'll be ecstatic to admit I was wrong - I'd rather be wrong and watch the Giants in a playoff game than right.
But when the Giants finish this season at 6-10 or worse, Shurmur should be out on his ass the day after the last game.
This is an interesting post in a few ways.
I think McAdoo was ahead of the curve on Eli and saw the decline sooner than most. So he drafted an offense that got the ball out of Eli's hand sooner. Remember, Eli only got sacked 21X in 2016 when we qualified for the playoffs. In fact, I think that was one of the lowest sacks totals ever in Eli's career.
Unfortunately, the wheels came off in 2017 largely due to injuries; and then the mob ganged up on McAdoo because he looked funny, had the personality of a door stop, and saw the opportunity to try something new at QB.
While I'm mostly agnostic on Shurmur as the HC, I am eager to see him coach this team with a full arsenal. An arsenal that should give plenty of play-calling flexibility and chance to really pressure defenses. I give him a mulligan last year because it's fairly clear Eli was forced into his lap. And he had to play the good soldier and go along with Corporate...
It's a tough schedule from here to the finish line. I have no idea what to expect from the D, but I think this O can vastly improve on the current 18.5PPG. And that could make a lot of difference in these games...
Hmm mcadoo was on some next sh-t with Eli diminishing as qb? Where is coaching again the pee wee league? I’m curious when this sudden loss of an ability occurred? It probably occurred right after he won the SB in 2011.
Mcadoo offense and play looked like a high school football team. I remember them running from the shotgun a lot lol. And pretty much using that one formation for pretty much everything
I don’t think it was then need to get the ball out of Eli hands quickly as it was mac being a west coast offense oc and not really knowing how to coach a team with a pocket passer, play action pass, deep thrower . He had no ability to create on offense that built off the run or anything except the shirt passing game. He basically thought he could win against the raiders with geno and Pin a dreadful season on Eli.
Also the anti Eli ers ...this team has not won a lot of games with no Eli.
Finally, why should we wait around to see the gettlemen / shurmur science project instead of just rebuilding with some of the talent we have. Say what you want about Beckham he is a superstar talent.
And if the OL gives the proper time for Jones to throw
Then everybody is going to come out smelling like roses
If they can do that Jones will have more time to throw
Opening up Barkley and the running game more
And the receivers will get more separation
And Shurmur will look like a genius
I say they get one or two depending on the progress more years
A lot of people want to knock the free agent moves but I don’t think it’s been that bad all things considered. You can see the logic behind every move. None of the FA moves are going to crush this team in the future. The Giants can even get out of the worst contract (Solder) after 20 with a minor hit.
People forget that you need money in FA AND you have to be an attractive landing spot. Money alone won’t get you FA’s. These guys are human and want to go to a winner. The Giants have been a losing dumpster fire for a while now. Gettleman offered Preston Smith and Zadarius Smith. Both chose the Packers. Others chose to stay where they were instead of jumping to the Giants. This can change next year with the money available and if the Giants start winning.
The biggest negative I see with Gettleman was the Shurmur hire. I think Reich was available that year and he would’ve been the much better hire with the benefit of hindsight. Outside of that it was a pretty weak pool. I think Gettleman settled on Shurmur given the circumstances and would’ve preferred a defensive minded head coach. 2020 should be the end of the line for Shurmur and I’d seriously consider putting out feelers now for potential replacements.
- mocking his 4th round rookie QB to get back at the media, then cutting that player to keep a sub-journeyman 3rd stringer that's "good in the room"
- repeatedly referencing the 3-13 team he inherited
- ducking Mike Francesa because Francesa was honest with him
- failing to properly utilize our best player
- being completely unaware how to manage a football game on Sundays
What has Shurmur done well? What can we point to that is concrete and isn't blaming Reese or groundlessly saying he "deserves" more time?
I'm going to give Shurmur credit for having Jones ready to step in and produce. It looks like he's instilled confidence in the kid and hasn't limited the playbook. Those are big deals in the passing of the baton.
I don't like the pitch count on Barkley. On an annualized basis, I would make sure he gets 450+ touches per year. Because I'm assuming by the time SB hits his next contract we're nearing the point of diminishing returns. But I wonder if limiting SB's usage rate in actually Shurmur. Perhaps it's Gettleman trying to make sure his over-investing in a RB at #2 is protected; and Shurmur is simply follow orders/analytics.
As to your other issues:
-- Game management is a problem. It's a league wide
epidemic. Does that excuse it? No. But I really think
that is a skill developed over time. It's very hard to
manage an NFL game.
-- The kibosh on Francessa is Mara, not Shurmur.
-- Honestly, I haven't noticed the 3-13 references.
-- The Lauletta saga was not a high point.
epidemic. Does that excuse it? No. But I really think
that is a skill developed over time. It's very hard to
manage an NFL game.
I agree with you that game management is a problem on a lot of teams. But it's not a problem on every team. New England and Indy, to name two, have smart people dedicated solely to that. Indy has two data analysts with a direct line to Reich in games:
George Li - Senior Football Strategy Analyst/Game Management
John Park - Manager of Football Research & Strategy
Their roles are described in an illuminating article in the Athletic linked below. According to the article, Reich will ask them direct questions on game management in real time: e.g. "If this pass is completed, do we call timeout?"
This will be the second time I have linked this article here, and the second time I will, in light of the thread starter's question and Shurmur's in game failures, ask this question:
Who is the Giants' equivalent to George Li and John Park, and if there is none, how is that excusable?
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The OL is better than the group that played the first 8 games last yer.
But once Brown got here and Pulley was entrenched at Center, they were much more effective than the first half of 2018.
To my eyes at least, I thought the group that played the last 8 games last year was doing a better job than this current group. That said, this group has faced a bunch of tough defensive fronts. But it is not clear to me at all that this OL is performing better than the second half of last year. Solder has caught whatever disease Flowers had, and Remmers looks just as pathetic as Chad Wheeler. There is more confusion and miscommunication this year, and as a result more trouble picking up stunts and blitzes again.
This year's OL play has been poor!
It hasn't been as bad as you have said. It looked really bad against the Vikings. And Remmers and Solder have struggled at times (especially in that game), but in no way are there anywhere as near as bad as Flowers and Wheeler. Remmers is much, much better than Chad Wheeler. And Solder is a league average starting LT at this point, while Flowers isn't even a starting tackle at all.
You didn't quite follow what I said.
I was comparing the current group to the group in the last 8 games of last year. Not the first 8 games.
The first 8 games last year I have said and will continue to say was a historically bad OL. The only reason that the OL from last year didn't end up being rated as historically bad was because it improved so much in the second half.
What I am saying is that this group is not playing as well as the line of Solder, Hernandez, Pulley, Brown and Wheeler.
Then why isn't he the QB coach or the offensive coordinator? Jones could be Joe Montana and it won't matter if come Sunday Shurmur can't coach his way out of a paper bag.
In game mismanagement is bad, but for me by far the worst sin has been the the lack of preparedness with both the players and the coaches.
Players don't know their assignments, miscommunicate and generally look confused Primarily the DBs, LBs and the OL. The game plans seem vanilla and they don't have anything to fall back on when Plan A isn't working. You can say there are a lot of young players on the team and they make mistakes. I will agree, but I expect those mistakes to be more a matter of experience. When to be aggressive and when not to be. Taking the right angles. Using their leverage properly. Hand play... Even if they are rookies they should ALWAYS understand their assignments. And the issues on the OL involve veterans. So the coaching staff has no excuse.
So that is a great question - does Jints Central have people who develop situational stats and are available during a game for input...?
I guess NO.
Shurmur's offense seems to operate more effectively within the first dozen or so plays (which I presume are to some level scripted) than they do later on. The prime example of this was when his Minnesota offense marched to a TD in 9 plays to open the 2017 NFCC Game. Jim Schwartz's defense then proceeded to undress Shurmur...the opening drive was all the points they would get. We've seen that since he's been here as well - promising starts followed by struggles. It's like opponents are adjusting to what he's doing, and he's failing to adjust to the adjustment.
(Side thought - why did we hire an offensive coordinator to run our offense a day after he was completely dominated by a divisional rival in a huge game? Because he was "an adult"? Seriously?)
then he should be the QB coach or OC, not the head coach
Shurmur's offense seems to operate more effectively within the first dozen or so plays (which I presume are to some level scripted) than they do later on. The prime example of this was when his Minnesota offense marched to a TD in 9 plays to open the 2017 NFCC Game. Jim Schwartz's defense then proceeded to undress Shurmur...the opening drive was all the points they would get. We've seen that since he's been here as well - promising starts followed by struggles. It's like opponents are adjusting to what he's doing, and he's failing to adjust to the adjustment.
(Side thought - why did we hire an offensive coordinator to run our offense a day after he was completely dominated by a divisional rival in a huge game? Because he was "an adult"? Seriously?)
That always bothered me too. Add to that the fact that Shurmur was a Philly product and didn't get a second glance for the job when they canned Kelly.
Shurmur's offense seems to operate more effectively within the first dozen or so plays (which I presume are to some level scripted) than they do later on. The prime example of this was when his Minnesota offense marched to a TD in 9 plays to open the 2017 NFCC Game. Jim Schwartz's defense then proceeded to undress Shurmur...the opening drive was all the points they would get. We've seen that since he's been here as well - promising starts followed by struggles. It's like opponents are adjusting to what he's doing, and he's failing to adjust to the adjustment.
(Side thought - why did we hire an offensive coordinator to run our offense a day after he was completely dominated by a divisional rival in a huge game? Because he was "an adult"? Seriously?)
I wouldn't put a ton of weight into the Vikes/Philly game. The Vikings were spent after they pulled off the "Minnesota Miracle" the week prior against the Saints. Honestly, they were lucky to be there. And the vaunted Zimmer D was just as listless that day as well.
So that day rested more with the HC than Shurmur...IMV.
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In comment 14628701 AndyMilligan said:
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In comment 14628689 allstarjim said:
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In comment 14628283 Big_N said:
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This guy sounded like a clown on draft night. What has changed?
I think Jones Mania has deluded everyone into acknowledging or forgetting, this team has not won a lot of games this year just like last year. Has DJ proved he can play well against top defenses at this stage if ever? Is signing Tate for 20 mil supposed to make up for trading Odell for Peppers? Your rebuilding OK, send Eli home in the off season and retain some of your talent on D. He is obviously throwing a bunch of s--t against the wall and seeing if it sticks. He acquired a few good guys on D but come on - -this guy is ridiculous.
Such a huge post fail, it's embarrassing.
Question 1, answer is emphatic yes.
Question 2, Tate's deal is very reasonable and he's a good player. And further, the deal wasn't Odell for Peppers, it was Odell for Peppers, Dexter Lawrence, and Oshane Ximines, so yeah, it was a GREAT deal for the Giants.
This guy is ridiculous? He's basically killed it since he got here, the only missteps were a couple of free agency signings that didn't work out that almost everyone cheered when they were made, like Omameh. He traded JPP and he got back B.J. Hill (already a win) and Lauletta (you can't hit on 'em all) with the picks that came back in return.
He rightly let Collins walk. No GM bats 1.000, but he's greatly improved this team's future and present, and I think the team is in great hands.
You are answering Q#1 emphatically yes? Not me. I like Jones' potential but that is all he is right now. He hasn't demonstrated yet that he can learn from his mistakes and be a consistent thrower of the ball in tough situations. When he demonstrates these key traits then I will answer YES to #!.
You need to watch the film of the Vikings and Pats games and get back to me. It's an emphatic YES. He absolutely was a consistent thrower of the ball in tough situations. If anyone denies this, they don't know what they are watching or just haven't watched the film.
Well I am glad it was consistent. I am not even sure what that means ... seems to me it was a rough night the whole time. Question 1 is why this guy looked so clownish on draft night?
He could not answer basic questions about picking Jones at 6. He has shown a complete lack of any kind of plan for this team going forward. He mentioned DJ and Eli might be in a QB competition. Then he mentioned being in a Green Bay / Rogers situation. Rogers sat for 3 years. Reporters rightfully asked him again why Jones at 6 if you are not going to play him for 3 years. This guy is basically sounds like an idiot. He has a JV defense that are bad tacklers in a pro league! This isn't college football. Somehow letting Collins go was a good idea? Peppers, Dexter Lawrence, and Oshane Ximines is really a good trade? Bringing back Eli and having him ride pine for 10mil is a good idea? I mean this is like the twilight zone. oh yeah not to mention this team is 2-4. There's that also.
Dexter Lawrence is developing into a monster nose tackle so Odell for Dex straight up could be a win for Gettleman. A destroyer at nose tackle is always more valuable than a WR, even one as good as Odell was (and he’s not as good as he was after the injuries)
One of my favorite - well, when I gambled - angles: dome to outdoors...
IF a majority of his draft picks pan out, we'll have a decent start to a core. But, we've been in love with 1st/2nd year players, only to see them level out, or wash out.
FA has mostly been bad.
Until this team progresses, it's a bad team.
In a good scenario, the team takes a hockey stick progression up the charts, because right now we're in a slow improvement (being generous) phase.
At the current rate of progress, we're not going to be competitive for another 2 or 3 years, and that's IF the drafts pan out.
So far, I'm not filled with optimism. I'll believe it, when I see it.
Shurmur's offense seems to operate more effectively within the first dozen or so plays (which I presume are to some level scripted) than they do later on. The prime example of this was when his Minnesota offense marched to a TD in 9 plays to open the 2017 NFCC Game. Jim Schwartz's defense then proceeded to undress Shurmur...the opening drive was all the points they would get. We've seen that since he's been here as well - promising starts followed by struggles. It's like opponents are adjusting to what he's doing, and he's failing to adjust to the adjustment.
(Side thought - why did we hire an offensive coordinator to run our offense a day after he was completely dominated by a divisional rival in a huge game? Because he was "an adult"? Seriously?)
I’ve noticed this as well. Seems like Shurmur does a good job preparing but is completely lost after the first chess move and countermove.
Shurmur's offense seems to operate more effectively within the first dozen or so plays (which I presume are to some level scripted) than they do later on. The prime example of this was when his Minnesota offense marched to a TD in 9 plays to open the 2017 NFCC Game. Jim Schwartz's defense then proceeded to undress Shurmur...the opening drive was all the points they would get. We've seen that since he's been here as well - promising starts followed by struggles. It's like opponents are adjusting to what he's doing, and he's failing to adjust to the adjustment.
(Side thought - why did we hire an offensive coordinator to run our offense a day after he was completely dominated by a divisional rival in a huge game? Because he was "an adult"? Seriously?)
This is essentially the same point I was making above. Preparing for the first 10 plays and then having nothing after that is not a good plan.
Too Early, for D.Jones....I am hopeful, several encouraging traits but turnovers are adding up....more needs to be seen.
Too Early, for Gettleman....loved his 1st 2 drafts, but some mis-steps in FA. Now, cap has been cleared, let's see what happens in off-season 3....big jump is needed.
Bettcher defense must show improvement...he is on a hot seat.
Too Early, for D.Jones....I am hopeful, several encouraging traits but turnovers are adding up....more needs to be seen.
Too Early, for Gettleman....loved his 1st 2 drafts, but some mis-steps in FA. Now, cap has been cleared, let's see what happens in off-season 3....big jump is needed.
Bettcher defense must show improvement...he is on a hot seat.
Too early for everyone but Bettcher?
The only guy here with an alibi is Bettcher - the talent they've given him on D is putrid. For a guy who came in claiming he was going to bolster the lines, the OL has had a ton of FA money spent and draft picks, with little to show for it, and the only credible pass rusher on the team is Markus Golden.
And considering the guy helped deliver 2 SB titles, we can at least try to spell Bill Belichick's name right.
free agency predictive process is concerning though. He's doing fine though, you build in the draft.
And if the OL gives the proper time for Jones to throw
Then everybody is going to come out smelling like roses
If they can do that Jones will have more time to throw
Opening up Barkley and the running game more
And the receivers will get more separation
And Shurmur will look like a genius
I say they get one or two depending on the progress more years
but if by next year the Giants are not in the playoffs I think we can fairly call his tenure a disappointment. He wasn’t forced to do a total tear down and rebuild. He didn’t have to part with Beckham Collins Apple Kennard Okwara and Harrison all of whom are having productive seasons (and except for Harrison, in positions of need for this team).
Apple has been flagged the 2nd most of any DB, is by far the Saints weakest defensive starter and Collins has been a disappointment.
It isn't like we let go of Pro Bowlers.
TDS are not there but those can come in spurts for a guy like him.
He would be our leading receiver.
TDS are not there but those can come in spurts for a guy like him.
He would be our leading receiver.
And we'd still be 2-4. See Cleveland.
When will fans understand that talent isn't everything?
Odell Beckham: 6 games, 29 receptions, 436 yards, 1 TD
Does that really look like a productive season from a superstar that has played in four more games?
TDS are not there but those can come in spurts for a guy like him.
He would be our leading receiver.
IF he stays healthy. That losing continues and we'll see how long he stays healthy
Odell Beckham: 6 games, 29 receptions, 436 yards, 1 TD
Does that really look like a productive season from a superstar that has played in four more games?
Maybe Odell should get on the juice!
Collins always gets a lot of tackles. He also gets burned in coverage...he's basically a glorified LB...which is why he wasn't worth keeping.
Keep trying.
The two of them are combining for nearly 180 million dollars in salary.
The two of them are combining for nearly 180 million dollars in salary.
And if they were still here, the same people would be complaining that Gettleman overpaid to keep them.
The two of them are combining for nearly 180 million dollars in salary.
And the Giants suck - but that doesn't stop people from saying there are some very good players here.