With NFC East so tight should Gettleman look for trades?

In comment 14628385 Eric from BBI said:

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In comment 14628374 Torrag said: Quote: Why? You think he played better? You want to say he's gaining experience, playing tough opponents, offense is undermanned that's reasonable. It's also reasonable to point out the fact he's played worse. Much worse. Worse in every measurable statistical category for the position. You didn't expect him to look worse against the #1 defense in the NFL without his three top weapons? I did. Most people on this site did. Same thing versus the Vikings.

Eric, as I pointed out earlier, it is more than just the stats. The decisions he made when he had time to make them like the two I referenced are easily preventable. They are learning points but that doesn't change the fact that he has played worse. When he started we all started saying that this is why Eli needed to be benched because he gave us something we have been missing. If Eli plays against Tampa I don't believe we win. However, if Eli was playing against the Pat's I could have seen us winning that game. There were many time where I said to myself that we'd have a better shot with Eli than DJ.

This doesn't mean that I don't like DJ. I already stated I am a big fan. However, called a spade a spade. He played worse every game imo. And it doesn't have to do with throwing more interceptions. I can live with those. We did with Eli. It is about some poor decisions that he wasn't making early on that were preventable. We aren't talking about making a poor throw in wind. We are talking about simple things like knowing when a play is dead, throw it away, and live to fight another down or series.

You make trades when you think you can win a championship. We will not win the superbowl this year. Repeat that to yourself one thousand times. I would make trades that help us next year. I would consider trading Golden and JAckrabbit. Both could help a contending team. Golden is a FA next year anyway, if we could get a second for him, I would do it.

..out of division if it garnered a decent draft pick (4th or 5th). Not sure you'd get higher.

Don't exactly know the cap situation either with his trade.

I think I'd hold to Tate just to help out DJ, which is essential to this season. It's really all about getting DJ experience and Tate is a great asset for a young QB. Esp with SS just a solid hit away from another concussion.

In comment 14628402 robbieballs2003 said:

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In comment 14628385 Eric from BBI said: Quote: In comment 14628374 Torrag said: Quote: Why? You think he played better? You want to say he's gaining experience, playing tough opponents, offense is undermanned that's reasonable. It's also reasonable to point out the fact he's played worse. Much worse. Worse in every measurable statistical category for the position. You didn't expect him to look worse against the #1 defense in the NFL without his three top weapons? I did. Most people on this site did. Same thing versus the Vikings. Eric, as I pointed out earlier, it is more than just the stats. The decisions he made when he had time to make them like the two I referenced are easily preventable. They are learning points but that doesn't change the fact that he has played worse. When he started we all started saying that this is why Eli needed to be benched because he gave us something we have been missing. If Eli plays against Tampa I don't believe we win. However, if Eli was playing against the Pat's I could have seen us winning that game. There were many time where I said to myself that we'd have a better shot with Eli than DJ. This doesn't mean that I don't like DJ. I already stated I am a big fan. However, called a spade a spade. He played worse every game imo. And it doesn't have to do with throwing more interceptions. I can live with those. We did with Eli. It is about some poor decisions that he wasn't making early on that were preventable. We aren't talking about making a poor throw in wind. We are talking about simple things like knowing when a play is dead, throw it away, and live to fight another down or series.

Eli was not beating the Pats...FFS. He would have had even more turnovers, there was zero separation and pressure up the gut.

When was the last time Eli played well under those conditions? Holy shit, people are nuts.

This is looking like a 5-6 win team but some want to trade away precious future resources now.

Stay the course, keep building through the draft.

look at the passes he completed. I don't think the Giants had an "open" receiver all night. He fit some passes into some very tight places and that was the only choice he had

In comment 14628413 Thegratefulhead said:

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You make trades when you think you can win a championship. We will not win the superbowl this year. Repeat that to yourself one thousand times. I would make trades that help us next year. I would consider trading Golden and JAckrabbit. Both could help a contending team. Golden is a FA next year anyway, if we could get a second for him, I would do it.

Totally aware that this team is not a SB contender, however with a few more pieces I do believe they could be in the mix for a Wildcard. (yes, I know i'm overly positive in my view of this team) I think that it could help change the mentality of the locker room going forward, being a losing club vs. a winning one.

Like I previously said, I would definitely not do this unless they show something over the next week or two once they get healthy. If they flop vs. Arizona, you stay the course. If they win and look good doing it, I would start looking at one or two vets that we would target in FA anyway. If they could be had for a 5th or below, why not secure the right to 1.) Get a good look at the product before you buy it and 2.) Secure negotiating rights?

I'm not sure if any of this is possible. Just throwing it out there for some good discussion which I think we are seeing here. Thanks folks!

His stats are worse, sure, but that doesn't mean he's playing worse. Interceptions off tipped balls doesn't mean he made an errant pass. A lot of drops in the past few games, too...A LOT. Those are being reflected in a lot of different numbers.

I've seen most of his throws get into very tight coverage in the past two games. Not to say he hasn't made mistakes, but he's played pretty well and very consistently since taking over as starter.

The Patriots game the Pats secondary were ALL OVER our guys. That is the best coverage game I've seen of a defensive unit in the NFL in all my years watching. I've seen that in college, but not at the NFL level before...except, let me take that back...the last time I saw coverage like that was the Giants-Ravens Super Bowl.

a rookie mistake and guys being bigger and faster in NFL. The first pick I take issue with what they did schematically with the tight splits unless Ellison fucked up the route and the third he got straight fooled, but PS could help out his rookie QB with some motion so that shit doesn't happen. He dropped balls into very tight windows all night. Are people that delusional to think Eli would have made the difference? We wouldn't even have moved the ball. Bills part 2 except with even more sacks.

C'mon PEEJ he threw one INT where there wasn't a Giant player within 20 yards. That isn't an exaggeration. It was a complete unforced error, a total misread.

That was the only choice he had? Let's be as real about the criticism as we are about the praise he earns.

I don't know how you can seriously type this and hit submit. It's a bogus take on his complete performance so far. There have been clear inconsistencies in his reads, execution and results. There for everyone to see. You want to provide reasons for his uneven plays I get that. That's fair. To go ostrich, stick your head in the sand and spout his 'consistency' I'm sorry that's a non starter for me.

I like Jones. I'm optimistic about his future. But let's stay real about his career to date.

about 4 seasons, we are in great shape in terms of future building blocks, draft capital, and free agency dollars. All 3 things are on the plus side. That is huge...let's not change that.

.

Can;t really find the pulse of this team and DJ
has played worse with each game . Now to his credit he
has shown many good traits and has been playing short handed.
Maybe the defense is coming around but were not a play off
team period so the only deals I would make would
to be to aquire draft picks .
Tate Ellison Ogletree Jenkins and Soldier are guys that
have value and are being over paid at the moment .
Eli would be another providing he will approve and I think
he would . No way in hell am I giving up picks for this
season .

In comment 14628497 SterlingArcher said:

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I'm not sure. I'll leave that up to the GM on who might be available and actually fit what they are trying to build. I can't pretend to be an NFL talent evaluator.

I do think that if they could upgrade at ILB and maybe FS, that would do wonders for the defense. Losing Connely, who really looked good, hurts big time. Ogletree is clearly average to flat out bad sometimes so both of those inside spots are just sub-par right now. Bethea is over the hill and was most likely a one year stop gap right?

On the offensive side of the ball, a bigger target at WR. AJ Green is the only guy who really fits that mold at 6'4", but he has had some injuries and at 31 years old, meh... That position might have to wait until the draft.

Unless a team is desperate, we don't trade either way...lets see what this team can do and build a winning culture.

DG and staff are on top of EVERY other teams’ needs, who is possibly available and every other thing he needs to know or be up in. That’s what he and his staff are paid to do.

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In comment 14628266 Eric from BBI said:

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With all due respect, I don't think you have a good feel for the state of this team. This is not a contending team. Even if by some miracle it made the playoffs (highly unlikely), it would get bounced immediately. We have a ton of 2020 offseason needs and you want to trade away draft picks? That's how the Giants stayed bad in the 1970s.

This.

to take Antoine Bethea off our hands?

This was totally predictable. In fact, I wrote about it in earlier game previews. For one, teams will catch up to him. But more importantly, the Patriots and Vikings are exceptionally well coached. They know how to confuse VETERAN quarterbacks.

Nothing that has transpired with Jones the last two weeks is unexpected. I would argue the opposite - it would have been weird for him to be tearing it up still.

In addition, there is a direct correlation between a QBs success and his surround talent at ANY level of experience.

Predictable but not optimal or desirable. Again it's fair to point out the circumstances. It's also fair to talk about the results. Which were very poor.

In comment 14628543 Torrag said:

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Predictable but not optimal or desirable. Again it's fair to point out the circumstances. It's also fair to talk about the results. Which were very poor.

The implication - and you know it - is that Daniel Jones is "getting worse."

If that's your take, then I don't think you and I see football and how players develop the same way.

Long term I don't think he's getting worse. He's going through the process as nearly all rookie QB's do. He certainly played worse over the last couple of games. Why is that so hard for some of you to say? I'm on record in numerous recent posts as being optimistic about his future. That doesn't mean I'm not realistic about what we've seen so far. Nor am I surprised that he's suffering some inconsistency and struggles.

We've seen Jones light up teams and then hit the wall when he played playoff caliber defenses. It's a process and he's in it now, there will be ups and downs. They've got to get their skill weapons healthy or he's got no shot out there. Right now the windows to throw are way too small for a rookie to be consistent.

In comment 14628560 Torrag said:

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Long term I don't think he's getting worse. He's going through the process as nearly all rookie QB's do. He certainly played worse over the last couple of games. Why is that so hard for some of you to say? I'm on record in numerous recent posts as being optimistic about his future. That doesn't mean I'm not realistic about what we've seen so far. Nor am I surprised that he's suffering some inconsistency and struggles.

Again, the implication by some is he is deteriorating. These folks should go back and re-watch Eli Manning's 2004 game against the Baltimore Ravens and then get back to us.

Daniel Jones is going to throw a pick 6 at some point that is going to cost us a game. This is all part of the process.

This is why we're already ahead by him playing now instead of him starting off next year.

If that's your point I agree he isn't 'deteriorating' as a player. He's just not going to be Johnny Unitas 'right now' as some unrealistically wish. However, there are just as many blowing unwarranted sunshine up his ass and talking about how well and consistently he is playing right now. That's BS too.

I completely agree. I'd be playing him as well.

Which is why I'm confused why we aren't doing the same with other young players like Ballantine and Love on defense. Remove the redskins game and we're the worst defense in the league and our pass defense is atrocious.

you hold on to your picks. I dont see any teams trading away up and coming talent so I think we roll with what we have.

We dont need stop gaps, we need to build long term. We can get stop gaps in FA without using draft picks.

We are 2-4 and yes we have a chance to make the playoffs but we are still 3rd in the division and have 12 teams in the NFC with a better record than us. The playoff chances at this point are slim.

I mean, you can never completely rule out trades if there is a deal to be made, but it shouldn't be a strategy.

for anything other then cap space which he has done a nice job creating. Only a few of our guys would be an impact for anyone in the league (speaking of older, expensive players).

DG has the space, and solid core that's gonna have 1-2 years together.

I don't see us trading/spending to win now.

I also don't see any of our coaches going anywhere, unless they get sniped by another team.

As for Jones, this is a trial by far. At least he doesn't have a horrible OL in front of him. We need to improve the OL, but it's much better now. If you want DJ to play NE like he did TB you've got unreasonable expectations.

In comment 14628448 Torrag said:

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I don't know how you can seriously type this and hit submit. It's a bogus take on his complete performance so far. There have been clear inconsistencies in his reads, execution and results. There for everyone to see. You want to provide reasons for his uneven plays I get that. That's fair. To go ostrich, stick your head in the sand and spout his 'consistency' I'm sorry that's a non starter for me. I like Jones. I'm optimistic about his future. But let's stay real about his career to date.

That's your opinion dude.

The last two games he has been let down by his receivers a lot. I don't think he's played perfect football, but he didn't in the Tampa or Washington games, either. I'm not going ostrich, I'm seeing a couple of rookie mistakes every game, but he's still throwing accurate passes. The difference in the last two games is the quality of the opposing defense as well as the lack of quality in his receiver play.

BTW the 2nd INT (the one by Harmon) was also was tipped by #55 of the Patriots, John Simon, as he was rushing into Jones face. It looked like Jones was trying to heave that ball out of bounds, as he should have, and Simon's deflection caused it to stay in play and made an easy INT by Harmon. The throw to Tate for the TD, despite the Tate bobble, was a thing of beauty.

The third INT (intended for Ellison and picked by Gilmore), that was a bad decision and not a good throw. I think Jones was fooled on that play, I don't think he recognized zone right away and made his decision to go to Ellison, who did not make a very good play to at least try to break that up. But that was the worst pass of the game for him, and there really wasn't any other pass that I saw where I thought it was a bad throw. He made some great throws into tight coverage, mostly. The final possession he dropped absolute dimes and the Pats got away with a pass interference that somehow wasn't called, and the final pass to Slayton on 4th down was just beautifully placed, but a better play was made by Gilmore.

Again, that Pats game, Jones played pretty well...but the defense was WAY better than the offensive personnel the Giants had on the field, and it was a complete mismatch. And it is for everyone to see. You should watch the tape yourself and you'll see a QB making a lot of great throws but a defense that overwhelmed the skill players on the Giants.

And that Vikings game, Shepard dropped some passes, probably feeling effects. But Jones was throwing darts in that game. The negative plays were almost entirely due to Vikings pass rush getting home over and over. The dominated the Giants OL. Remember the play Solder got completely spun around? The final throw in which he threw the INT, the Vikings ran a stunt, he had to get rid of it quickly because the stunting pass rusher got through unblocked, and he delivered a good pass that Anthony Barr undercut and made a diving, athletic INT. Sometimes the defensive player makes a better play than your guy. He also made a mistake where he took a sack in the red zone where he could've and should've thrown it out of bounds.

But you are right, it's all there for anyone to see. A fair-minded individual that actually looks at the throws Jones has made the past two weeks would HAVE to agree with me. He's still playing pretty damn well, especially for a rookie QB. I've been very impressed with his accuracy, even in recent weeks, and even the first deep shot to Shepard could've been caught. Shepard could've gotten to the spot quicker (he was a little slow coming out of the double move), and he still could've caught it, as it did hit him in the hands, although it would've been a great catch.

at everything regarding improving the team. We have picks and $$$ next year so we could see some moves if we start to win some games and get back in the hunt. We want to win sooner rather than later or some jobs will be lost. They all know that.

Again I want to be clear. Long term I am optimistic about Jones future. That said he struggled moving the ball and producing points. That included numerous misreads and inaccurate throws resulting in turnovers. His completion percentage and yards per game plummeted. It's through my lens but I don't think he sensed or responded well to pocket pressure either in movement to extend or step up or throws. Certainly there are contributing factors but he played poorly the last couple of games.

I believe I've made my case. Certainly to take his statistical results and say 'he played well' is a joke. The numbers don't support that opinion by any reasonable standard of successful NFL QB play.

In comment 14628606 Torrag said:

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Again I want to be clear. Long term I am optimistic about Jones future. That said he struggled moving the ball and producing points. That included numerous misreads and inaccurate throws resulting in turnovers. His completion percentage and yards per game plummeted. It's through my lens but I don't think he sensed or responded well to pocket pressure either in movement to extend or step up or throws. Certainly there are contributing factors but he played poorly the last couple of games. I believe I've made my case. Certainly to take his statistical results and say 'he played well' is a joke. The numbers don't support that opinion by any reasonable standard of successful NFL QB play.

Yeah yeah, you also said he threw the ball right to the defender when there were "no Giants within 20 yards," failing to realize it was a deflected ball which very likely turned a throwaway out of bounds into the INT. The bottom line, is that you can point to misreads in every game by every QB in the league. But to say he's played poorly seems to me you need to re-watch those games. He simply hasn't, numbers be damned. The only difference in DJ vs Tampa and Washington and DJ vs Vikings and Patriots is that the defenses were much, much better, and dominated the Giants supporting cast. The DL in the Vikings game dominated the Giants OL, and the secondary of the Pats dominated the Giants receivers. And you can still see DJ making incredible throws in the face of both of those situations.

You don't have to agree with me, you can be wrong if you insist.

In comment 14628606 Torrag said:

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Again I want to be clear. Long term I am optimistic about Jones future. That said he struggled moving the ball and producing points. That included numerous misreads and inaccurate throws resulting in turnovers. His completion percentage and yards per game plummeted. It's through my lens but I don't think he sensed or responded well to pocket pressure either in movement to extend or step up or throws. Certainly there are contributing factors but he played poorly the last couple of games. I believe I've made my case. Certainly to take his statistical results and say 'he played well' is a joke. The numbers don't support that opinion by any reasonable standard of successful NFL QB play.

These are team metrics, not QB metrics.

In comment 14628362 Eric from BBI said:

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In comment 14628250 robbieballs2003 said: Quote: I'm a big DJ fan but come on. He has gotten worse every game. This is a strange take given the quality of the last two opponents combined with the absence of his top targets.

More like insane -typical really

That's a copout for him playing poorly. There is no position in sport sans maybe baseball pitcher with greater capacity to positively or negatively influence his teams results. Does he bear responsibility solely? No, did he optimize his play and raise the level of his team? No, and that's his job.

What is he supposed to step into here?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=90bc2Z6b6nk

1:15
1:21
6:53
10:08
10:55
11:50

You're going to put these plays on him?

At 3:18, he does what he can do when he has a little bit of time. That throw just is gorgeous. There were also at least 3 TD passes that could have been had if the Giants' receivers would've finished the play. He could've finished this game with at least 4 TD passes but the receivers didn't finish.

Btw, I have not been a DJ homer before the draft or in preseason, or even after his first game. But I'm starting to see some very positive attributes and consistency in how he's carried himself and executed, and I really like what I've seen, even in the past two weeks where he faced a tremendous amount of adversity and still competed.

This is a QB playing at a high level, but the roster isn't where it needs to be to match up and compete against the better teams of the NFL right now, which include the Patriots and Vikings. The shortcomings on the field in those two games were at other positions, not at the QB position.

Stay the course. Don't rush. Those were my feelings when finding the QB heir apparent and they are the same for most every other position on this team. The plan is for the future, not this year. I know most here so a division title as a possibility. I'm not saying it's not. I'm saying it's not worth it when the division itself is bad. One and done is not competitive football IMHO.

Build through the draft. Fill holes in FA with young players with upside. I'd be ok with a trade or FA pickup with proven skills and a true team first attitude too but I would still prefer it to be for the future. I don't want any "for this year" players.

DON'T SPEND FOR RIGHT NOW. This team is not ready. I still say they are more competitive next year with a good to great draft and wisely spent money in FA. Two years from now, if everything falls right, they can be very competitive (as in deep into the playoffs/SB competitive).

In comment 14628625 Torrag said:

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That's a copout for him playing poorly. There is no position in sport sans maybe baseball pitcher with greater capacity to positively or negatively influence his teams results. Does he bear responsibility solely? No, did he optimize his play and raise the level of his team? No, and that's his job.

Raise the level of his team? I'd argue he has definitely done that. In each of the last two games, he has put the ball into tight windows numerous times. Receiver still has to catch the ball, though. Not sure what you are watching. In the words of Giselle, Jones "cannot fucking throw the ball and catch the ball at the same time."

I can tell you if Jones hasn't raised the level of his team, we wouldn't have two wins right now, at best we'd be 1-5, maybe 0-6.

about developing our young core. Jones ended up starting sooner than expected, so it's made this season even more exciting to see that development.

But I have no idea how anyone, Giants fan or not, can watch this team play and think it's a playoff team, even with a few additions.

This team won't sniff 9-10 wins and that's okay. We're in a rebuild, and I'm actually happy with how its going. Jones will have his ups and downs. We see some nice pieces on defense getting experience. And finally, we have some cap space coming and draft picks to make some additions in the offseason.

Stay the course. And if teams come calling for Jackrabbit or other veterans, you make some moves to get even more assets for the future.

In comment 14628529 Eric from BBI said:

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This was totally predictable. In fact, I wrote about it in earlier game previews. For one, teams will catch up to him. But more importantly, the Patriots and Vikings are exceptionally well coached. They know how to confuse VETERAN quarterbacks. Nothing that has transpired with Jones the last two weeks is unexpected. I would argue the opposite - it would have been weird for him to be tearing it up still. In addition, there is a direct correlation between a QBs success and his surround talent at ANY level of experience.

I agree with this. I thought after the Tampa Bay game the bar was now set to high for DJ. Too many were expecting him to light it up or be very good every week. Not me and probably most on BBI. We new there would be pitfalls for the rookie. Hopefully he looks better against the Cardinals but we shall see. I'm still optimistic about him but it's guarded at this point at least for this year.

Is still up for questioning. But not fully there (timewise) to give the definitive.

If he doesn't pan out, giantes a fooked for a very long time

What the Giants should do is trade away any early draft picks period.
However, where I think it is worth is to consider trades are the following:

1) BUY: Trade a day late day 3 pick (rd 6, 7) for a player under contract that fills a strategic need and you believe is part of roster building - not a quick fix.
2) SELL: Trade away any high priced veteran another team comes calling for that aren't in your plans.

I don't think the Giants should be super active, but look at last year. DG did pick up draft capital and that capital is producing.

OK. Let's get it over with. Trade Jones for Darnold.

Does everybody want to get rid of Jenkins he’s a pretty good player

I would trade Evan Engram before I trade Jackrabbit

How about if you could get T Williams for a 3rd round pick? I think you do that if you think you could sign him. To me it is worth it IF you are getting a long term asset. IMO long term in the NFL is three years.