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With NFC East so tight should Gettleman look for trades?

JerryNicklebag : 10/14/2019 11:33 am
With the division being so tight, the Giants only one game back, the Cowboys suddenly looking very beatable and the Eagles defense being unable to cover deep, should Gettleman start into talks to fill holes now rather than later?

Over the next few weeks there will be more than a few teams looking to trade veteran starters to stock up on picks for next year. If the Giants win this week they will pull even with either Dallas or Philly after one of them loses next Sunday night. Perhaps the time is now to look around the league for players that would be free agent targets, fill the holes and at least make a run at a wild card spot and maybe even the division?

My opinion hinges on this week. If we win and DJ continues to look good, why not go pick up a few players and try to be competitive now? If we lose then I think we stay the course and hope for another good off-season.

What are your thoughts BBI?
DJ continues to look good?  
robbieballs2003 : 10/14/2019 11:37 am : link
I'm a big DJ fan but come on. He has gotten worse every game.
Really depends how we do the next two weeks. Lose both we should  
Zeke's Alibi : 10/14/2019 11:37 am : link
be sellers, split I wouldn't have an issue with them moving JJ, win both clearly should hold onto JJ. The biggest problem is that the most obvious place for JJ is Philly and I doubt that happens.
Only if the trade  
djstat : 10/14/2019 11:37 am : link
Is with a long term vision, not a quick fix for this year only.
Nothing should be done that he woudln't do long term anyway  
Torrag : 10/14/2019 11:37 am : link
This team isn't a contender. If we win an awful NFCE with an 8-8 record it doesn't mean much except it will be fun.
...  
Eric from BBI : Admin : 10/14/2019 11:41 am : link
With all due respect, I don't think you have a good feel for the state of this team.

This is not a contending team. Even if by some miracle it made the playoffs (highly unlikely), it would get bounced immediately.

We have a ton of 2020 offseason needs and you want to trade away draft picks? That's how the Giants stayed bad in the 1970s.
I am not sure I get  
jvm52106 : 10/14/2019 11:41 am : link
the narrative of DJ getting worse? The Vikings and Patriots are far superior defenses and we are minus our superstar TB, missing our #1 WR, missing our #1 TE and our #2 RB and we played both those defenses in the span of 4 days and one game in not so great conditions.
BTW Trades  
jvm52106 : 10/14/2019 11:42 am : link
YES, I think we should trade but we should be sending guys and getting picks, not the other way around.
Giants will be sellers  
PEEJ : 10/14/2019 11:42 am : link
not buyers
I don't change course  
Matt in SGS : 10/14/2019 11:43 am : link
the Giants are ahead of schedule in getting ready for 2020 because they got Jones playing in Week 3. Let's not forget, that the Giants are a missed chip shot in Tampa from being 1-5. The defense is slowly playing better with a stronger pass rush and I'd hope the Giants play Love, Beal and Ballentine more.

And getting Jones more experience, with expected struggles and that will equal some losses, is worth it to me particularly if we see improvement as the schedule moves along.

The NFC East might come back to the pack, but if I'm Gettleman, I remain a seller to continue to stockpile picks next year. The Giants with another draft and lots of cap space, should be in the playoff next year. If things break right and they are in the hunt in December, it's a bonus.
'the narrative of DJ getting worse?'  
Torrag : 10/14/2019 11:44 am : link
He played worse. Made more mistakes. Threw for less yards and fewer touchdowns. Threw more interceptions. That's worse.

There may be 'reasons' as you cited but he definitely played worse. Is that really debatable?
I agree with Eric  
mattlawson : 10/14/2019 11:45 am : link
And the best thing about the teams' offseason has been the drafts. dont blow draft picks for tomorrow for players that really wont make a difference and we dont need today.
RE: ...  
JerryNicklebag : 10/14/2019 11:48 am : link
In comment 14628266 Eric from BBI said:
Quote:
With all due respect, I don't think you have a good feel for the state of this team.

This is not a contending team. Even if by some miracle it made the playoffs (highly unlikely), it would get bounced immediately.

We have a ton of 2020 offseason needs and you want to trade away draft picks? That's how the Giants stayed bad in the 1970s.


I don't think it's fair to judge how they looked the last 2 weeks with the amount of injuries they have. Not to mention the caliber of teams they played. Minnesota is a good football team and the Patriots, do I even need to say anything? Even with those injuries they hung in there pretty well at least in the first half of that game.

The edge rushing has been much improved but the play on the back end and at ILB has been bad. I have to wonder whether filling a few of those holes makes this a MUCH better team. Maybe even a solid wild card contender.
RE: 'the narrative of DJ getting worse?'  
robbieballs2003 : 10/14/2019 11:50 am : link
In comment 14628281 Torrag said:
Quote:
He played worse. Made more mistakes. Threw for less yards and fewer touchdowns. Threw more interceptions. That's worse.

There may be 'reasons' as you cited but he definitely played worse. Is that really debatable?


Yeah, that is a better way of putting it. He has played worse. Maybe he hasn't gotten worse but he has definitely played worse. The decisions like not throwing the ball away in the red zone and taking an unnecessary sack, rolling to his left and waiting too long to throw it away which led to an interception, etc.
RE: I agree with Eric  
JerryNicklebag : 10/14/2019 11:50 am : link
In comment 14628282 mattlawson said:
Quote:
And the best thing about the teams' offseason has been the drafts. dont blow draft picks for tomorrow for players that really wont make a difference and we dont need today.


If they were able to trade some lower round picks for the right to sign players they were going to target in free agency anyway I would do it. You remove the competition. I'm not talking trading high end picks.
I'd say yes if there are fits that can be had for late round picks  
Eric on Li : 10/14/2019 11:51 am : link
why not get a jump on FA. Plenty of teams have been able to make moves (Clowney trade as an example) that will be compensation neutral thanks to likely comp picks. The Jags acquired Dareus a few years ago for a 6th rd pick and signed him long term. Cooper became a core player for Dallas (though I would not endorse trading 1 of our top 3 round picks).

Trades in the NFL have become a great way to get talented players in their early 20's at a relative discount to where you'd have to draft guys of that talent and create leverage to resign them more efficiently than open market UFA prices. I'd have my eye open to former high picks on crappy teams available for mid to late round picks. I would not pay the premium for guys like Tunsil/Cooper/Fitzpatrick that will be expected for a player like Jalen Ramsey. But a 5th or 6th for a former high pick at LB or FS or OL would be a good roll of the dice. Or TE or RB.
RE: RE: 'the narrative of DJ getting worse?'  
JerryNicklebag : 10/14/2019 11:51 am : link
In comment 14628297 robbieballs2003 said:
Quote:
In comment 14628281 Torrag said:


Quote:


He played worse. Made more mistakes. Threw for less yards and fewer touchdowns. Threw more interceptions. That's worse.

There may be 'reasons' as you cited but he definitely played worse. Is that really debatable?



Yeah, that is a better way of putting it. He has played worse. Maybe he hasn't gotten worse but he has definitely played worse. The decisions like not throwing the ball away in the red zone and taking an unnecessary sack, rolling to his left and waiting too long to throw it away which led to an interception, etc.


You have to agree some of that has to do with not having Barkley, Gallman and Shep. It's hard for any rookie in the NFL, it's way more difficult when pretty much all of your weapons and even their backups are out.
RE: RE: RE: 'the narrative of DJ getting worse?'  
robbieballs2003 : 10/14/2019 11:54 am : link
In comment 14628303 JerryNicklebag said:
Quote:
In comment 14628297 robbieballs2003 said:


Quote:


In comment 14628281 Torrag said:


Quote:


He played worse. Made more mistakes. Threw for less yards and fewer touchdowns. Threw more interceptions. That's worse.

There may be 'reasons' as you cited but he definitely played worse. Is that really debatable?



Yeah, that is a better way of putting it. He has played worse. Maybe he hasn't gotten worse but he has definitely played worse. The decisions like not throwing the ball away in the red zone and taking an unnecessary sack, rolling to his left and waiting too long to throw it away which led to an interception, etc.



You have to agree some of that has to do with not having Barkley, Gallman and Shep. It's hard for any rookie in the NFL, it's way more difficult when pretty much all of your weapons and even their backups are out.


Yes, of course but bad decisions are bad decisions. None of those plays had to do with who he is playing with. It is about making smart decisions and not forcing things. He admitted to doing so.
If Leonard Williams wants to go from the green side of MetLife  
dpinzow : 10/14/2019 11:54 am : link
To the blue side and something can be worked out, thatís the one trade Iíd seek to improve the team
RE: I'd say yes if there are fits that can be had for late round picks  
JerryNicklebag : 10/14/2019 11:55 am : link
In comment 14628302 Eric on Li said:
Quote:
why not get a jump on FA. Plenty of teams have been able to make moves (Clowney trade as an example) that will be compensation neutral thanks to likely comp picks. The Jags acquired Dareus a few years ago for a 6th rd pick and signed him long term. Cooper became a core player for Dallas (though I would not endorse trading 1 of our top 3 round picks).

Trades in the NFL have become a great way to get talented players in their early 20's at a relative discount to where you'd have to draft guys of that talent and create leverage to resign them more efficiently than open market UFA prices. I'd have my eye open to former high picks on crappy teams available for mid to late round picks. I would not pay the premium for guys like Tunsil/Cooper/Fitzpatrick that will be expected for a player like Jalen Ramsey. But a 5th or 6th for a former high pick at LB or FS or OL would be a good roll of the dice. Or TE or RB.


Exactly. You immediately gain the right to tag the player if you choose to do so. You get a solid look at the player in your system for the rest of the season, no wondering whether there is a fit before paying them big dollars (like Vernon).

To me it seems worth it but again, only if we are able to win this week and if DJ looks like he is making progress.
RE: RE: I agree with Eric  
Eric from BBI : Admin : 10/14/2019 11:56 am : link
In comment 14628298 JerryNicklebag said:
Quote:
In comment 14628282 mattlawson said:


Quote:


And the best thing about the teams' offseason has been the drafts. dont blow draft picks for tomorrow for players that really wont make a difference and we dont need today.



If they were able to trade some lower round picks for the right to sign players they were going to target in free agency anyway I would do it. You remove the competition. I'm not talking trading high end picks.


Darius Slayton is a 5th round pick. Corey Ballentine is a 6th round pick.

Be careful.
As Matt  
Eric from BBI : Admin : 10/14/2019 11:57 am : link
already posted, this team is an easy field goal miss away from 1-5.
RE: Really depends how we do the next two weeks. Lose both we should  
Ira : 10/14/2019 11:57 am : link
In comment 14628251 Zeke's Alibi said:
Quote:
be sellers, split I wouldn't have an issue with them moving JJ, win both clearly should hold onto JJ. The biggest problem is that the most obvious place for JJ is Philly and I doubt that happens.


This is a reasonable approach. If we do win both, I wouldn't mind trading a late day 3 pick for someone good who fits our needs.
RE: DJ continues to look good?  
5BowlsSoon : 10/14/2019 11:58 am : link
In comment 14628250 robbieballs2003 said:
Quote:
I'm a big DJ fan but come on. He has gotten worse every game.


Not true....donít have time to explain. But you can read my many posts on any of the Daniel Jones threads.
RE: RE: I'd say yes if there are fits that can be had for late round picks  
robbieballs2003 : 10/14/2019 11:58 am : link
In comment 14628317 JerryNicklebag said:
Quote:
In comment 14628302 Eric on Li said:


Quote:


why not get a jump on FA. Plenty of teams have been able to make moves (Clowney trade as an example) that will be compensation neutral thanks to likely comp picks. The Jags acquired Dareus a few years ago for a 6th rd pick and signed him long term. Cooper became a core player for Dallas (though I would not endorse trading 1 of our top 3 round picks).

Trades in the NFL have become a great way to get talented players in their early 20's at a relative discount to where you'd have to draft guys of that talent and create leverage to resign them more efficiently than open market UFA prices. I'd have my eye open to former high picks on crappy teams available for mid to late round picks. I would not pay the premium for guys like Tunsil/Cooper/Fitzpatrick that will be expected for a player like Jalen Ramsey. But a 5th or 6th for a former high pick at LB or FS or OL would be a good roll of the dice. Or TE or RB.



Exactly. You immediately gain the right to tag the player if you choose to do so. You get a solid look at the player in your system for the rest of the season, no wondering whether there is a fit before paying them big dollars (like Vernon).

To me it seems worth it but again, only if we are able to win this week and if DJ looks like he is making progress.


Wait, we are going to get a player worth the FT or TT for a 5th round pick? No way in hell unless we are talking about a punter. If that was true then the team would just let his contract expire and get a third round compensatory pick.
Micah Fitzpatrick could have filled a huge need  
5BowlsSoon : 10/14/2019 12:00 pm : link
But I think Pitt gave up a 1 and 2 for him, so we couldnít do that.

Maybe there is some decent FS or ILB out there who we can pick up cheaply.
RE: Micah Fitzpatrick could have filled a huge need  
robbieballs2003 : 10/14/2019 12:01 pm : link
In comment 14628330 5BowlsSoon said:
Quote:
But I think Pitt gave up a 1 and 2 for him, so we couldnít do that.

Maybe there is some decent FS or ILB out there who we can pick up cheaply.


We have that player already. His name is Julian Love and he needs to get on the field.
RE: RE: RE: I agree with Eric  
Eric on Li : 10/14/2019 12:02 pm : link
In comment 14628321 Eric from BBI said:
Quote:
In comment 14628298 JerryNicklebag said:


Quote:


In comment 14628282 mattlawson said:


Quote:


And the best thing about the teams' offseason has been the drafts. dont blow draft picks for tomorrow for players that really wont make a difference and we dont need today.



If they were able to trade some lower round picks for the right to sign players they were going to target in free agency anyway I would do it. You remove the competition. I'm not talking trading high end picks.



Darius Slayton is a 5th round pick. Corey Ballentine is a 6th round pick.

Be careful.


And Connelly was a 5th. But they are already going to have a lot of picks next year thanks to the comp picks and the roster crunch is going to get tighter as more and more draft picks work out.

Here's an example - if Arizona's new coaching staff was willing to cash in on Hasaan Reddick for a 4th or 5th just like we were with Eli Apple, and Bettcher still thinks he can be a player, I'd roll the dice.
With New England WR shopping...  
bw in dc : 10/14/2019 12:02 pm : link
I would try to trade Tate to the Pats. And maybe get something reasonable...

And let's go with the youth.
Stick with the plan. Be happy with 7-9 wins and moving in the right  
Ivan15 : 10/14/2019 12:05 pm : link
direction. We will look like the 2018 Browns, but hopefully without the dumb trades for Landry and then Beckham.
Eric on Li  
Eric from BBI : Admin : 10/14/2019 12:05 pm : link
We have way more needs than draft picks.

And the comp picks have not been set. Every year, the Giants are predicted to get a lot of comp picks. They don't. And worse, the Eagles end up with more than we do.

This team should be 1-5. This is not a contending football team. And trading away draft assets and going on wild spending sprees in free agency is the surest way to make sure we will be bad for 20 years.
RE:Julian Love is the missing link?  
5BowlsSoon : 10/14/2019 12:06 pm : link
In comment 14628335 robbieballs2003 said:
Quote:
In comment 14628330 5BowlsSoon said:


Quote:


But I think Pitt gave up a 1 and 2 for him, so we couldnít do that.

Maybe there is some decent FS or ILB out there who we can pick up cheaply.



We have that player already. His name is Julian Love and he needs to get on the field.


Are you being serious Robbie? By all accounts Iíve read, he has been a MAJOR disappointment. Slow and canít even cover the slot receiver. I guess it is taking him some time to learn the safety position. He doesnít give me the impression he can do this well....donít you have to be good at tackling for that position?
RE: DJ continues to look good?  
Eric from BBI : Admin : 10/14/2019 12:11 pm : link
In comment 14628250 robbieballs2003 said:
Quote:
I'm a big DJ fan but come on. He has gotten worse every game.


This is a strange take given the quality of the last two opponents combined with the absence of his top targets.
RE: Eric on Li  
Eric on Li : 10/14/2019 12:14 pm : link
In comment 14628345 Eric from BBI said:
Quote:
We have way more needs than draft picks.

And the comp picks have not been set. Every year, the Giants are predicted to get a lot of comp picks. They don't. And worse, the Eagles end up with more than we do.

This team should be 1-5. This is not a contending football team. And trading away draft assets and going on wild spending sprees in free agency is the surest way to make sure we will be bad for 20 years.


Do those needs include high impact talents? Are there usually high impact talents in mid/late rounds?
'This is a strange take'...  
Torrag : 10/14/2019 12:15 pm : link
Why? You think he played better? You want to say he's gaining experience, playing tough opponents, offense is undermanned that's reasonable. It's also reasonable to point out the fact he's played worse. Much worse. Worse in every measurable statistical category for the position.
RE: RE:Julian Love is the missing link?  
Klaatu : 10/14/2019 12:16 pm : link
Ummm...pretty poor choice of words there, skippy. Missing piece, okay. Missing link, not so much.
RE: With New England WR shopping...  
Matt in SGS : 10/14/2019 12:16 pm : link
In comment 14628337 bw in dc said:
Quote:
I would try to trade Tate to the Pats. And maybe get something reasonable...

And let's go with the youth.


Now that would be interesting. Not sure about the cap consequences, but I also wonder that with the concussion questions around Shepard, the Giants are going to want to be sure that Jones has targets to work with. Tate netted the Lions a 3rd round pick last year. This year he's a year older and has decent sized contract. So what would you get back for him? A 4th? On the Pats that's basically a 5th rounder. I would just assume keep Tate.
RE: 'This is a strange take'...  
Eric from BBI : Admin : 10/14/2019 12:18 pm : link
In comment 14628374 Torrag said:
Quote:
Why? You think he played better? You want to say he's gaining experience, playing tough opponents, offense is undermanned that's reasonable. It's also reasonable to point out the fact he's played worse. Much worse. Worse in every measurable statistical category for the position.


You didn't expect him to look worse against the #1 defense in the NFL without his three top weapons? I did. Most people on this site did.

Same thing versus the Vikings.

RE: RE:Julian Love is the missing link?  
robbieballs2003 : 10/14/2019 12:21 pm : link
In comment 14628348 5BowlsSoon said:
Quote:
In comment 14628335 robbieballs2003 said:


Quote:


In comment 14628330 5BowlsSoon said:


Quote:


But I think Pitt gave up a 1 and 2 for him, so we couldnít do that.

Maybe there is some decent FS or ILB out there who we can pick up cheaply.



We have that player already. His name is Julian Love and he needs to get on the field.



Are you being serious Robbie? By all accounts Iíve read, he has been a MAJOR disappointment. Slow and canít even cover the slot receiver. I guess it is taking him some time to learn the safety position. He doesnít give me the impression he can do this well....donít you have to be good at tackling for that position?


As Eric has said, we shouldn't be giving up picks. We are still rebuilding. So, get his ass on the field and see what he has before giving up something of value for someone else. Love has a great skill set for FS. Being a FS is not being a slot defender. Two different positions. Why draft him of we aren't going to see what he has? Bethea has been awful. We have Baker, Jenkins, Ballentine, Beal etc at corner. Why draft Love to just bury him on the depth chart? Oh, did I say Bethea has been brutal this year?
'You didn't expect him to look worse'...  
Torrag : 10/14/2019 12:26 pm : link
That's reasonable but again it's also fair to point out he's played MUCH worse imo. Like night and day worse. Last time I checked good QB's can play well vs good defenses. Not against the rules correct? It has happened before in the NFL right? If he'd come out and done so we'd give him the credit for it? So for me there's also nothing wrong in pointing out he actually played quite bad.
RE: ...  
Ned In Atlanta : 10/14/2019 12:27 pm : link
In comment 14628266 Eric from BBI said:
Quote:
With all due respect, I don't think you have a good feel for the state of this team.

This is not a contending team. Even if by some miracle it made the playoffs (highly unlikely), it would get bounced immediately.

We have a ton of 2020 offseason needs and you want to trade away draft picks? That's how the Giants stayed bad in the 1970s.


Is it really unfathomable? The front office has preached "retool, not rebuild" behind Qbs whose skill set took a precipitous nose dive. I hope they trade FOR draft picks, but nothing would shock me
RE: RE: 'This is a strange take'...  
robbieballs2003 : 10/14/2019 12:27 pm : link
In comment 14628385 Eric from BBI said:
Quote:
In comment 14628374 Torrag said:


Quote:


Why? You think he played better? You want to say he's gaining experience, playing tough opponents, offense is undermanned that's reasonable. It's also reasonable to point out the fact he's played worse. Much worse. Worse in every measurable statistical category for the position.



You didn't expect him to look worse against the #1 defense in the NFL without his three top weapons? I did. Most people on this site did.

Same thing versus the Vikings.


Eric, as I pointed out earlier, it is more than just the stats. The decisions he made when he had time to make them like the two I referenced are easily preventable. They are learning points but that doesn't change the fact that he has played worse. When he started we all started saying that this is why Eli needed to be benched because he gave us something we have been missing. If Eli plays against Tampa I don't believe we win. However, if Eli was playing against the Pat's I could have seen us winning that game. There were many time where I said to myself that we'd have a better shot with Eli than DJ.

This doesn't mean that I don't like DJ. I already stated I am a big fan. However, called a spade a spade. He played worse every game imo. And it doesn't have to do with throwing more interceptions. I can live with those. We did with Eli. It is about some poor decisions that he wasn't making early on that were preventable. We aren't talking about making a poor throw in wind. We are talking about simple things like knowing when a play is dead, throw it away, and live to fight another down or series.
Crazy  
Thegratefulhead : 10/14/2019 12:31 pm : link
You make trades when you think you can win a championship. We will not win the superbowl this year. Repeat that to yourself one thousand times. I would make trades that help us next year. I would consider trading Golden and JAckrabbit. Both could help a contending team. Golden is a FA next year anyway, if we could get a second for him, I would do it.
I'd consider giving JJ away...  
BillKo : 10/14/2019 12:33 pm : link
..out of division if it garnered a decent draft pick (4th or 5th). Not sure you'd get higher.

Don't exactly know the cap situation either with his trade.

I think I'd hold to Tate just to help out DJ, which is essential to this season. It's really all about getting DJ experience and Tate is a great asset for a young QB. Esp with SS just a solid hit away from another concussion.
RE: RE: RE: 'This is a strange take'...  
Thegratefulhead : 10/14/2019 12:34 pm : link
In comment 14628402 robbieballs2003 said:
Quote:
In comment 14628385 Eric from BBI said:


Quote:


In comment 14628374 Torrag said:


Quote:


Why? You think he played better? You want to say he's gaining experience, playing tough opponents, offense is undermanned that's reasonable. It's also reasonable to point out the fact he's played worse. Much worse. Worse in every measurable statistical category for the position.



You didn't expect him to look worse against the #1 defense in the NFL without his three top weapons? I did. Most people on this site did.

Same thing versus the Vikings.




Eric, as I pointed out earlier, it is more than just the stats. The decisions he made when he had time to make them like the two I referenced are easily preventable. They are learning points but that doesn't change the fact that he has played worse. When he started we all started saying that this is why Eli needed to be benched because he gave us something we have been missing. If Eli plays against Tampa I don't believe we win. However, if Eli was playing against the Pat's I could have seen us winning that game. There were many time where I said to myself that we'd have a better shot with Eli than DJ.

This doesn't mean that I don't like DJ. I already stated I am a big fan. However, called a spade a spade. He played worse every game imo. And it doesn't have to do with throwing more interceptions. I can live with those. We did with Eli. It is about some poor decisions that he wasn't making early on that were preventable. We aren't talking about making a poor throw in wind. We are talking about simple things like knowing when a play is dead, throw it away, and live to fight another down or series.
Eli was not beating the Pats...FFS. He would have had even more turnovers, there was zero separation and pressure up the gut.

When was the last time Eli played well under those conditions? Holy shit, people are nuts.
Oh man  
JonC : 10/14/2019 12:43 pm : link
This is looking like a 5-6 win team but some want to trade away precious future resources now.
This isn't baseball.  
allstarjim : 10/14/2019 12:45 pm : link
Stay the course, keep building through the draft.
Instead of looking at Jones' mistakes  
PEEJ : 10/14/2019 12:50 pm : link
look at the passes he completed. I don't think the Giants had an "open" receiver all night. He fit some passes into some very tight places and that was the only choice he had
RE: Crazy  
JerryNicklebag : 10/14/2019 12:52 pm : link
In comment 14628413 Thegratefulhead said:
Quote:
You make trades when you think you can win a championship. We will not win the superbowl this year. Repeat that to yourself one thousand times. I would make trades that help us next year. I would consider trading Golden and JAckrabbit. Both could help a contending team. Golden is a FA next year anyway, if we could get a second for him, I would do it.


Totally aware that this team is not a SB contender, however with a few more pieces I do believe they could be in the mix for a Wildcard. (yes, I know i'm overly positive in my view of this team) I think that it could help change the mentality of the locker room going forward, being a losing club vs. a winning one.

Like I previously said, I would definitely not do this unless they show something over the next week or two once they get healthy. If they flop vs. Arizona, you stay the course. If they win and look good doing it, I would start looking at one or two vets that we would target in FA anyway. If they could be had for a 5th or below, why not secure the right to 1.) Get a good look at the product before you buy it and 2.) Secure negotiating rights?

I'm not sure if any of this is possible. Just throwing it out there for some good discussion which I think we are seeing here. Thanks folks!
And DJ isn't playing worse  
allstarjim : 10/14/2019 12:54 pm : link
His stats are worse, sure, but that doesn't mean he's playing worse. Interceptions off tipped balls doesn't mean he made an errant pass. A lot of drops in the past few games, too...A LOT. Those are being reflected in a lot of different numbers.

I've seen most of his throws get into very tight coverage in the past two games. Not to say he hasn't made mistakes, but he's played pretty well and very consistently since taking over as starter.

The Patriots game the Pats secondary were ALL OVER our guys. That is the best coverage game I've seen of a defensive unit in the NFL in all my years watching. I've seen that in college, but not at the NFL level before...except, let me take that back...the last time I saw coverage like that was the Giants-Ravens Super Bowl.
The second pick was all on DJ and you can chalk that shit up to  
Zeke's Alibi : 10/14/2019 12:54 pm : link
a rookie mistake and guys being bigger and faster in NFL. The first pick I take issue with what they did schematically with the tight splits unless Ellison fucked up the route and the third he got straight fooled, but PS could help out his rookie QB with some motion so that shit doesn't happen. He dropped balls into very tight windows all night. Are people that delusional to think Eli would have made the difference? We wouldn't even have moved the ball. Bills part 2 except with even more sacks.
'and that was the only choice he had'...  
Torrag : 10/14/2019 12:55 pm : link
C'mon PEEJ he threw one INT where there wasn't a Giant player within 20 yards. That isn't an exaggeration. It was a complete unforced error, a total misread.

That was the only choice he had? Let's be as real about the criticism as we are about the praise he earns.
'he's played pretty well and very consistently'...  
Torrag : 10/14/2019 1:01 pm : link
I don't know how you can seriously type this and hit submit. It's a bogus take on his complete performance so far. There have been clear inconsistencies in his reads, execution and results. There for everyone to see. You want to provide reasons for his uneven plays I get that. That's fair. To go ostrich, stick your head in the sand and spout his 'consistency' I'm sorry that's a non starter for me.

I like Jones. I'm optimistic about his future. But let's stay real about his career to date.
in the first time in  
ryanmkeane : 10/14/2019 1:03 pm : link
about 4 seasons, we are in great shape in terms of future building blocks, draft capital, and free agency dollars. All 3 things are on the plus side. That is huge...let's not change that.
Who would you trade and who would be your trading partner?  
SterlingArcher : 10/14/2019 1:29 pm : link
.
Agree Robbie Torrag Eric ...  
Bluesbreaker : 10/14/2019 1:44 pm : link
Can;t really find the pulse of this team and DJ
has played worse with each game . Now to his credit he
has shown many good traits and has been playing short handed.
Maybe the defense is coming around but were not a play off
team period so the only deals I would make would
to be to aquire draft picks .
Tate Ellison Ogletree Jenkins and Soldier are guys that
have value and are being over paid at the moment .
Eli would be another providing he will approve and I think
he would . No way in hell am I giving up picks for this
season .
RE: Who would you trade and who would be your trading partner?  
JerryNicklebag : 10/14/2019 1:45 pm : link
In comment 14628497 SterlingArcher said:
Quote:
.


I'm not sure. I'll leave that up to the GM on who might be available and actually fit what they are trying to build. I can't pretend to be an NFL talent evaluator.

I do think that if they could upgrade at ILB and maybe FS, that would do wonders for the defense. Losing Connely, who really looked good, hurts big time. Ogletree is clearly average to flat out bad sometimes so both of those inside spots are just sub-par right now. Bethea is over the hill and was most likely a one year stop gap right?

On the offensive side of the ball, a bigger target at WR. AJ Green is the only guy who really fits that mold at 6'4", but he has had some injuries and at 31 years old, meh... That position might have to wait until the draft.

8-8 would be great  
upnyg : 10/14/2019 1:46 pm : link
Unless a team is desperate, we don't trade either way...lets see what this team can do and build a winning culture.
And btw?  
Big Blue '56 : 10/14/2019 1:47 pm : link
DG and staff are on top of EVERY other teamsí needs, who is possibly available and every other thing he needs to know or be up in. Thatís what he and his staff are paid to do.
up on  
Big Blue '56 : 10/14/2019 1:47 pm : link
.
RE: ...  
Percy : 10/14/2019 1:57 pm : link
In comment 14628266 Eric from BBI said:
Quote:
With all due respect, I don't think you have a good feel for the state of this team.

This is not a contending team. Even if by some miracle it made the playoffs (highly unlikely), it would get bounced immediately.

We have a ton of 2020 offseason needs and you want to trade away draft picks? That's how the Giants stayed bad in the 1970s.

This.
How much do we have to pay for someone  
Jimmy Googs : 10/14/2019 1:57 pm : link
to take Antoine Bethea off our hands?
robbieballs2003  
Eric from BBI : Admin : 10/14/2019 1:58 pm : link
This was totally predictable. In fact, I wrote about it in earlier game previews. For one, teams will catch up to him. But more importantly, the Patriots and Vikings are exceptionally well coached. They know how to confuse VETERAN quarterbacks.

Nothing that has transpired with Jones the last two weeks is unexpected. I would argue the opposite - it would have been weird for him to be tearing it up still.

In addition, there is a direct correlation between a QBs success and his surround talent at ANY level of experience.
'This was totally predictable.'  
Torrag : 10/14/2019 2:06 pm : link
Predictable but not optimal or desirable. Again it's fair to point out the circumstances. It's also fair to talk about the results. Which were very poor.
RE: 'This was totally predictable.'  
Eric from BBI : Admin : 10/14/2019 2:14 pm : link
In comment 14628543 Torrag said:
Quote:
Predictable but not optimal or desirable. Again it's fair to point out the circumstances. It's also fair to talk about the results. Which were very poor.


The implication - and you know it - is that Daniel Jones is "getting worse."

If that's your take, then I don't think you and I see football and how players develop the same way.
"getting worse."  
Torrag : 10/14/2019 2:20 pm : link
Long term I don't think he's getting worse. He's going through the process as nearly all rookie QB's do. He certainly played worse over the last couple of games. Why is that so hard for some of you to say? I'm on record in numerous recent posts as being optimistic about his future. That doesn't mean I'm not realistic about what we've seen so far. Nor am I surprised that he's suffering some inconsistency and struggles.
QB progress is rarely linear in the NFL  
JonC : 10/14/2019 2:21 pm : link
We've seen Jones light up teams and then hit the wall when he played playoff caliber defenses. It's a process and he's in it now, there will be ups and downs. They've got to get their skill weapons healthy or he's got no shot out there. Right now the windows to throw are way too small for a rookie to be consistent.
RE:  
Eric from BBI : Admin : 10/14/2019 2:24 pm : link
In comment 14628560 Torrag said:
Quote:
Long term I don't think he's getting worse. He's going through the process as nearly all rookie QB's do. He certainly played worse over the last couple of games. Why is that so hard for some of you to say? I'm on record in numerous recent posts as being optimistic about his future. That doesn't mean I'm not realistic about what we've seen so far. Nor am I surprised that he's suffering some inconsistency and struggles.


Again, the implication by some is he is deteriorating. These folks should go back and re-watch Eli Manning's 2004 game against the Baltimore Ravens and then get back to us.
Torrag  
Eric from BBI : Admin : 10/14/2019 2:25 pm : link
Daniel Jones is going to throw a pick 6 at some point that is going to cost us a game. This is all part of the process.

This is why we're already ahead by him playing now instead of him starting off next year.
'the implication by some is he is deteriorating'  
Torrag : 10/14/2019 2:27 pm : link
If that's your point I agree he isn't 'deteriorating' as a player. He's just not going to be Johnny Unitas 'right now' as some unrealistically wish. However, there are just as many blowing unwarranted sunshine up his ass and talking about how well and consistently he is playing right now. That's BS too.
'This is why we're already ahead by him playing now'  
Torrag : 10/14/2019 2:29 pm : link
I completely agree. I'd be playing him as well.

Which is why I'm confused why we aren't doing the same with other young players like Ballantine and Love on defense. Remove the redskins game and we're the worst defense in the league and our pass defense is atrocious.
Unless a player that is a long term solution comes along  
Rudy5757 : 10/14/2019 2:29 pm : link
you hold on to your picks. I dont see any teams trading away up and coming talent so I think we roll with what we have.

We dont need stop gaps, we need to build long term. We can get stop gaps in FA without using draft picks.

We are 2-4 and yes we have a chance to make the playoffs but we are still 3rd in the division and have 12 teams in the NFC with a better record than us. The playoff chances at this point are slim.
Continue building in the draft  
Sneakers O'toole : 10/14/2019 2:36 pm : link
I mean, you can never completely rule out trades if there is a deal to be made, but it shouldn't be a strategy.

DG should not be looking  
HoustonGiant : 10/14/2019 2:48 pm : link
for anything other then cap space which he has done a nice job creating. Only a few of our guys would be an impact for anyone in the league (speaking of older, expensive players).

DG has the space, and solid core that's gonna have 1-2 years together.

I don't see us trading/spending to win now.

I also don't see any of our coaches going anywhere, unless they get sniped by another team.

As for Jones, this is a trial by far. At least he doesn't have a horrible OL in front of him. We need to improve the OL, but it's much better now. If you want DJ to play NE like he did TB you've got unreasonable expectations.
RE: 'he's played pretty well and very consistently'...  
allstarjim : 10/14/2019 2:58 pm : link
In comment 14628448 Torrag said:
Quote:
I don't know how you can seriously type this and hit submit. It's a bogus take on his complete performance so far. There have been clear inconsistencies in his reads, execution and results. There for everyone to see. You want to provide reasons for his uneven plays I get that. That's fair. To go ostrich, stick your head in the sand and spout his 'consistency' I'm sorry that's a non starter for me.

I like Jones. I'm optimistic about his future. But let's stay real about his career to date.


That's your opinion dude.

The last two games he has been let down by his receivers a lot. I don't think he's played perfect football, but he didn't in the Tampa or Washington games, either. I'm not going ostrich, I'm seeing a couple of rookie mistakes every game, but he's still throwing accurate passes. The difference in the last two games is the quality of the opposing defense as well as the lack of quality in his receiver play.

BTW the 2nd INT (the one by Harmon) was also was tipped by #55 of the Patriots, John Simon, as he was rushing into Jones face. It looked like Jones was trying to heave that ball out of bounds, as he should have, and Simon's deflection caused it to stay in play and made an easy INT by Harmon. The throw to Tate for the TD, despite the Tate bobble, was a thing of beauty.

The third INT (intended for Ellison and picked by Gilmore), that was a bad decision and not a good throw. I think Jones was fooled on that play, I don't think he recognized zone right away and made his decision to go to Ellison, who did not make a very good play to at least try to break that up. But that was the worst pass of the game for him, and there really wasn't any other pass that I saw where I thought it was a bad throw. He made some great throws into tight coverage, mostly. The final possession he dropped absolute dimes and the Pats got away with a pass interference that somehow wasn't called, and the final pass to Slayton on 4th down was just beautifully placed, but a better play was made by Gilmore.

Again, that Pats game, Jones played pretty well...but the defense was WAY better than the offensive personnel the Giants had on the field, and it was a complete mismatch. And it is for everyone to see. You should watch the tape yourself and you'll see a QB making a lot of great throws but a defense that overwhelmed the skill players on the Giants.

And that Vikings game, Shepard dropped some passes, probably feeling effects. But Jones was throwing darts in that game. The negative plays were almost entirely due to Vikings pass rush getting home over and over. The dominated the Giants OL. Remember the play Solder got completely spun around? The final throw in which he threw the INT, the Vikings ran a stunt, he had to get rid of it quickly because the stunting pass rusher got through unblocked, and he delivered a good pass that Anthony Barr undercut and made a diving, athletic INT. Sometimes the defensive player makes a better play than your guy. He also made a mistake where he took a sack in the red zone where he could've and should've thrown it out of bounds.

But you are right, it's all there for anyone to see. A fair-minded individual that actually looks at the throws Jones has made the past two weeks would HAVE to agree with me. He's still playing pretty damn well, especially for a rookie QB. I've been very impressed with his accuracy, even in recent weeks, and even the first deep shot to Shepard could've been caught. Shepard could've gotten to the spot quicker (he was a little slow coming out of the double move), and he still could've caught it, as it did hit him in the hands, although it would've been a great catch.
Think DG is always looking  
TMS : 10/14/2019 3:03 pm : link
at everything regarding improving the team. We have picks and $$$ next year so we could see some moves if we start to win some games and get back in the hunt. We want to win sooner rather than later or some jobs will be lost. They all know that.
'He's still playing pretty damn well'  
Torrag : 10/14/2019 3:09 pm : link
Again I want to be clear. Long term I am optimistic about Jones future. That said he struggled moving the ball and producing points. That included numerous misreads and inaccurate throws resulting in turnovers. His completion percentage and yards per game plummeted. It's through my lens but I don't think he sensed or responded well to pocket pressure either in movement to extend or step up or throws. Certainly there are contributing factors but he played poorly the last couple of games.

I believe I've made my case. Certainly to take his statistical results and say 'he played well' is a joke. The numbers don't support that opinion by any reasonable standard of successful NFL QB play.
RE: 'He's still playing pretty damn well'  
allstarjim : 10/14/2019 3:14 pm : link
In comment 14628606 Torrag said:
Quote:
Again I want to be clear. Long term I am optimistic about Jones future. That said he struggled moving the ball and producing points. That included numerous misreads and inaccurate throws resulting in turnovers. His completion percentage and yards per game plummeted. It's through my lens but I don't think he sensed or responded well to pocket pressure either in movement to extend or step up or throws. Certainly there are contributing factors but he played poorly the last couple of games.

I believe I've made my case. Certainly to take his statistical results and say 'he played well' is a joke. The numbers don't support that opinion by any reasonable standard of successful NFL QB play.


Yeah yeah, you also said he threw the ball right to the defender when there were "no Giants within 20 yards," failing to realize it was a deflected ball which very likely turned a throwaway out of bounds into the INT. The bottom line, is that you can point to misreads in every game by every QB in the league. But to say he's played poorly seems to me you need to re-watch those games. He simply hasn't, numbers be damned. The only difference in DJ vs Tampa and Washington and DJ vs Vikings and Patriots is that the defenses were much, much better, and dominated the Giants supporting cast. The DL in the Vikings game dominated the Giants OL, and the secondary of the Pats dominated the Giants receivers. And you can still see DJ making incredible throws in the face of both of those situations.

You don't have to agree with me, you can be wrong if you insist.
RE: 'He's still playing pretty damn well'  
allstarjim : 10/14/2019 3:15 pm : link
In comment 14628606 Torrag said:
Quote:
Again I want to be clear. Long term I am optimistic about Jones future. That said he struggled moving the ball and producing points. That included numerous misreads and inaccurate throws resulting in turnovers. His completion percentage and yards per game plummeted. It's through my lens but I don't think he sensed or responded well to pocket pressure either in movement to extend or step up or throws. Certainly there are contributing factors but he played poorly the last couple of games.

I believe I've made my case. Certainly to take his statistical results and say 'he played well' is a joke. The numbers don't support that opinion by any reasonable standard of successful NFL QB play.


These are team metrics, not QB metrics.
RE: RE: DJ continues to look good?  
Gettledogman : 10/14/2019 3:20 pm : link
In comment 14628362 Eric from BBI said:
Quote:
In comment 14628250 robbieballs2003 said:


Quote:


I'm a big DJ fan but come on. He has gotten worse every game.



This is a strange take given the quality of the last two opponents combined with the absence of his top targets.


More like insane -typical really
'These are team metrics, not QB metrics.'  
Torrag : 10/14/2019 3:24 pm : link
That's a copout for him playing poorly. There is no position in sport sans maybe baseball pitcher with greater capacity to positively or negatively influence his teams results. Does he bear responsibility solely? No, did he optimize his play and raise the level of his team? No, and that's his job.
Final comment  
allstarjim : 10/14/2019 3:33 pm : link
What is he supposed to step into here?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=90bc2Z6b6nk

1:15
1:21
6:53
10:08
10:55
11:50

You're going to put these plays on him?

At 3:18, he does what he can do when he has a little bit of time. That throw just is gorgeous. There were also at least 3 TD passes that could have been had if the Giants' receivers would've finished the play. He could've finished this game with at least 4 TD passes but the receivers didn't finish.

Btw, I have not been a DJ homer before the draft or in preseason, or even after his first game. But I'm starting to see some very positive attributes and consistency in how he's carried himself and executed, and I really like what I've seen, even in the past two weeks where he faced a tremendous amount of adversity and still competed.

This is a QB playing at a high level, but the roster isn't where it needs to be to match up and compete against the better teams of the NFL right now, which include the Patriots and Vikings. The shortcomings on the field in those two games were at other positions, not at the QB position.
No  
USAF NYG Fan : 10/14/2019 3:36 pm : link
Stay the course. Don't rush. Those were my feelings when finding the QB heir apparent and they are the same for most every other position on this team. The plan is for the future, not this year. I know most here so a division title as a possibility. I'm not saying it's not. I'm saying it's not worth it when the division itself is bad. One and done is not competitive football IMHO.

Build through the draft. Fill holes in FA with young players with upside. I'd be ok with a trade or FA pickup with proven skills and a true team first attitude too but I would still prefer it to be for the future. I don't want any "for this year" players.

DON'T SPEND FOR RIGHT NOW. This team is not ready. I still say they are more competitive next year with a good to great draft and wisely spent money in FA. Two years from now, if everything falls right, they can be very competitive (as in deep into the playoffs/SB competitive).
RE: 'These are team metrics, not QB metrics.'  
allstarjim : 10/14/2019 3:37 pm : link
In comment 14628625 Torrag said:
Quote:
That's a copout for him playing poorly. There is no position in sport sans maybe baseball pitcher with greater capacity to positively or negatively influence his teams results. Does he bear responsibility solely? No, did he optimize his play and raise the level of his team? No, and that's his job.


Raise the level of his team? I'd argue he has definitely done that. In each of the last two games, he has put the ball into tight windows numerous times. Receiver still has to catch the ball, though. Not sure what you are watching. In the words of Giselle, Jones "cannot fucking throw the ball and catch the ball at the same time."

I can tell you if Jones hasn't raised the level of his team, we wouldn't have two wins right now, at best we'd be 1-5, maybe 0-6.
This season has always been...  
wma31 : 10/14/2019 3:41 pm : link
about developing our young core. Jones ended up starting sooner than expected, so it's made this season even more exciting to see that development.

But I have no idea how anyone, Giants fan or not, can watch this team play and think it's a playoff team, even with a few additions.

This team won't sniff 9-10 wins and that's okay. We're in a rebuild, and I'm actually happy with how its going. Jones will have his ups and downs. We see some nice pieces on defense getting experience. And finally, we have some cap space coming and draft picks to make some additions in the offseason.

Stay the course. And if teams come calling for Jackrabbit or other veterans, you make some moves to get even more assets for the future.
RE: robbieballs2003  
Blue21 : 10/14/2019 3:55 pm : link
In comment 14628529 Eric from BBI said:
Quote:
This was totally predictable. In fact, I wrote about it in earlier game previews. For one, teams will catch up to him. But more importantly, the Patriots and Vikings are exceptionally well coached. They know how to confuse VETERAN quarterbacks.

Nothing that has transpired with Jones the last two weeks is unexpected. I would argue the opposite - it would have been weird for him to be tearing it up still.

In addition, there is a direct correlation between a QBs success and his surround talent at ANY level of experience.


I agree with this. I thought after the Tampa Bay game the bar was now set to high for DJ. Too many were expecting him to light it up or be very good every week. Not me and probably most on BBI. We new there would be pitfalls for the rookie. Hopefully he looks better against the Cardinals but we shall see. I'm still optimistic about him but it's guarded at this point at least for this year.
Just say..long-term as far as DJ is concern?  
micky : 10/14/2019 4:18 pm : link
Is still up for questioning. But not fully there (timewise) to give the definitive.

If he doesn't pan out, giantes a fooked for a very long time
Honestly I think it's situational  
DavidinBMNY : 10/14/2019 4:29 pm : link
What the Giants should do is trade away any early draft picks period.
However, where I think it is worth is to consider trades are the following:

1) BUY: Trade a day late day 3 pick (rd 6, 7) for a player under contract that fills a strategic need and you believe is part of roster building - not a quick fix.
2) SELL: Trade away any high priced veteran another team comes calling for that aren't in your plans.

I don't think the Giants should be super active, but look at last year. DG did pick up draft capital and that capital is producing.

I thought this was about whether Gettleman looks for a trade  
DeepBlueJint : 10/14/2019 5:19 pm : link
OK. Let's get it over with. Trade Jones for Darnold.
Why  
NikkiMac : 10/14/2019 6:55 pm : link
Does everybody want to get rid of Jenkins heís a pretty good player

I would trade Evan Engram before I trade Jackrabbit
Example T Williams  
Reale01 : 10/15/2019 6:22 pm : link
How about if you could get T Williams for a 3rd round pick? I think you do that if you think you could sign him. To me it is worth it IF you are getting a long term asset. IMO long term in the NFL is three years.
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