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Boomer praised Gettleman this morning on his show.

Emlen'sGremlins : 10/14/2019 7:16 pm
Started by speaking to the MVP type player Christian McCaffrey has become in Carolina, who of course was a Gettleman pick. Then he went on to remind that Gettleman led Carolina to a Super Bowl appearance not so long ago.

Bringing it over to the Giants, he specifically praised the Jones and Barkley picks and then said the Giants have some very talented young players on the roster and mentioned Hernandez, Lawrence and Baker.

Boomer said he thinks Gettleman has proven that he has an eye for talent and the Giants are headed in the right direction. He finished by stating that he also doesn't mind when Gettleman might say one thing and do another because it's not his job to share his thoughts with anyone outside the organization (an oblivious dig at Francessa).
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RE: Disagree  
Britt in VA : 10/15/2019 1:32 pm : link
In comment 14629601 ron mexico said:
Quote:
any number of stop gaps could have been brought in to perform near the level Eli gave us.

You didn't have to know how Jones would perform to realize it was time to move on from Eli.


Eli vs. whatever stopgap you sign plus Eli's dead money.
Six of one, half dozen of the other.
RE: RE: Disagree  
ron mexico : 10/15/2019 1:41 pm : link
In comment 14629605 Britt in VA said:
Quote:
In comment 14629601 ron mexico said:


Quote:


any number of stop gaps could have been brought in to perform near the level Eli gave us.

You didn't have to know how Jones would perform to realize it was time to move on from Eli.



Eli vs. whatever stopgap you sign plus Eli's dead money.
Six of one, half dozen of the other.


it isn't the same.

I can provide a half a dozen examples of stop gaps that would have resulted in significant cap savings but I doubt it resonates this time since it hasn't the last 10 times people tried.

There would have been other benefits from moving on from Eli but no point in rehashing the past at this point.
It may have been a prudent approach, but not an illogical one.  
Britt in VA : 10/15/2019 1:48 pm : link
.
The question of retaining Eli had less to do about his cap impact  
jcn56 : 10/15/2019 1:51 pm : link
and more to do with the team's overall strategy.

Which isn't to say that paying Eli didn't hurt them - obviously it did - but were the moves made done with a shorter horizon in mind because they wanted to try to win in the shorter term with Eli still at the helm?

Does Patrick Omameh still get signed? Does Solder get a big blank check? Patrick Stewart? Does Barkley get drafted regardless instead of a QB? Does OBJ get his contract?

I don't know the answers - but there was a definite impact, so a miscalculation could have ranged from some pain to a dramatic shift in their fortunes.
Eli was never going out like that  
allstarjim : 10/15/2019 2:02 pm : link
Come on. We're talking about Eli Manning, the most important player in franchise history. Further, I'm pretty sure that the Giants wanted Jones to watch how Eli prepares and works as a professional.

LOL  
Johnny5 : 10/15/2019 2:03 pm : link
I can understand taking a wait and see with Gettleman. But people giving Reese the amount of credit he seems to be getting here is laughable. He had an eye for skill position. He had some decent picks. But almost every single one of his draft picks past the 2nd round is out of the league. His OL and LB drafting was for the most part atrocious. To be fair, I think Ross was a big part of his problem.

How many hits in these draft classes? What 5 out of 27 picks? Why do people think we are where we are right now?

2013:
1 Justin Pugh OT
2 Johnathan Hankins DT (Hooray, a HIT! and then fails to resign him)
3 Damontre Moore DE
4 Ryan Nassib QB
5 Cooper Taylor S
7 Eric Herman G
7 Michael Cox RB

2014:
1st Odell Beckham Jr. WR (Hooray, a HIT!)
2 Weston Richburg C
3 Jay Bromley DT
4 Andre Williams RB
5 Nat Berhe S
5 Devon Kennard LB (Hooray, a HIT!)
6 Bennett Jackson DB

2015 draft class:
1ST: LT Ereck Flowers
2ND: S Landon Collins (Hooray, a HIT!)
3RD: DE Owa Odighizuwa (out of NFL)
5TH: S Mykkele Thompson (out of NFL)
6TH: WR Geremy Davis
7TH: RT Bobby Hart


2016:
1ST: CB Eli Apple
2ND: WR Sterling Shepard (Hooray, a HIT!)
3RD: S Darian Thompson
4TH: LB B.J. Goodson (OK, I guess)
5TH: RB Paul Perkins
6TH: TE Jerell Adams
RE: LOL  
jcn56 : 10/15/2019 2:13 pm : link
In comment 14629634 Johnny5 said:
Quote:
I can understand taking a wait and see with Gettleman. But people giving Reese the amount of credit he seems to be getting here is laughable. He had an eye for skill position. He had some decent picks. But almost every single one of his draft picks past the 2nd round is out of the league. His OL and LB drafting was for the most part atrocious. To be fair, I think Ross was a big part of his problem.

How many hits in these draft classes? What 5 out of 27 picks? Why do people think we are where we are right now?

2013:
1 Justin Pugh OT
2 Johnathan Hankins DT (Hooray, a HIT! and then fails to resign him)
3 Damontre Moore DE
4 Ryan Nassib QB
5 Cooper Taylor S
7 Eric Herman G
7 Michael Cox RB

2014:
1st Odell Beckham Jr. WR (Hooray, a HIT!)
2 Weston Richburg C
3 Jay Bromley DT
4 Andre Williams RB
5 Nat Berhe S
5 Devon Kennard LB (Hooray, a HIT!)
6 Bennett Jackson DB

2015 draft class:
1ST: LT Ereck Flowers
2ND: S Landon Collins (Hooray, a HIT!)
3RD: DE Owa Odighizuwa (out of NFL)
5TH: S Mykkele Thompson (out of NFL)
6TH: WR Geremy Davis
7TH: RT Bobby Hart


2016:
1ST: CB Eli Apple
2ND: WR Sterling Shepard (Hooray, a HIT!)
3RD: S Darian Thompson
4TH: LB B.J. Goodson (OK, I guess)
5TH: RB Paul Perkins
6TH: TE Jerell Adams


You can do that - and line up some other teams to see how well they fared 5 years later. The average NFL career length is under 4 years.

What matters is that Reese's teams were competitive and won 2 Super Bowls - until whatever the Giants had that was working stopped. When that happened, nobody looked good - not Eli, not TC, not Reese.

Gettleman was brought in to right the ship - and so far, it looks very much like it's moving on the same course. Too soon to tell, but considering the apparatus for scouting players both on the pro personnel and college side remained largely unchanged, I'm not sure why that would be surprising.
RE: The question of retaining Eli had less to do about his cap impact  
ron mexico : 10/15/2019 2:22 pm : link
In comment 14629622 jcn56 said:
Quote:
and more to do with the team's overall strategy.

Which isn't to say that paying Eli didn't hurt them - obviously it did - but were the moves made done with a shorter horizon in mind because they wanted to try to win in the shorter term with Eli still at the helm?

Does Patrick Omameh still get signed? Does Solder get a big blank check? Patrick Stewart? Does Barkley get drafted regardless instead of a QB? Does OBJ get his contract?

I don't know the answers - but there was a definite impact, so a miscalculation could have ranged from some pain to a dramatic shift in their fortunes.


all good questions. We will never know the answers and doesn't really matter any more than to hope that they don't repeat the same mistakes under similar circumstances.
But jcn  
Johnny5 : 10/15/2019 2:24 pm : link
If you listen to Gilbride, he pointed out the OL as his and ultimately Coughlin's downfall on offense. He was specifically putting that on the GM.

Also our defense was pretty awful until 2016. Reese spends big in FA after we bag Coughlin. The hits to the cap for one year of good defense was not a good trade off. One thing I will say, if they would have kept Coughlin one more year and given him that defense? Who thinks we would not have had a better year than under McAdoo with his pop warner offense?
You can do the same for Gettleman's Carolina drafts  
Greg from LI : 10/15/2019 2:25 pm : link
2013:
1 - Lotulelei, decent starter
2 - Short - Pro Bowler
4 - Kugbila - never played in NFL
5 - Klein - journeyman
6 - Barner - special teamer

2014:
1 - Benjamin - out of football
2 - Ealy - bust, out of football
3 - Turner - Pro Bowler
4 - Boston - journeyman
5 - Benwikere - out of football
6 - Gaffney - never played in NFL

2015:
1 - Thompson - decent starter
2 - Funchess - bust
4 - Williams - decent starter
5 - Mayo - backup
5 - Artis-Payne - special teamer

2016:
1 - Butler - bust
2 - Bradberry - decent starter
3 - Worley - decent starter
5 - Sanchez - out of football
7 - Sandland - never made a roster

So yeah, a bit better than Reese's bad drafts, but hardly overflowing with talent.
Any NYG fan worth a damn  
Chris684 : 10/15/2019 2:26 pm : link
Can see that Reese should be appreciated for his overall body of work but also realize it was time for him to go, in hindsight it was probably a year or two too late.

Reese did a lot of good here. The 2007 draft, Kenny Phillips, JPP, Linval Joseph. Oddly enough, it seemed like Reese was overall much better at identifying talent at particular positions via the draft and free agency, while others he flat sucked at.

Among his best were DL, WR and S/CB. Antrel Rolle and Canty were two of the best and biggest additions he made. Manningham, Cruz, Nicks, Smith and Beckham prove he could pick WRs any day of the week.

He had serious blind spots along the OL, Linebackers, TEs and developmental QBs.

I think the worst thing you could say about Reese, is something that is very refreshing with Gettleman and that is the country club free pass that existed for draft picks on a Jerry Reese built roster is now non-existent under Gettleman. DG is much faster to realize his personnel mistakes and pull the plug than Reese ever was. I think that alone did JR in as time went on here.

But I still think have to look at Reese as having an overall very solid body of work here over the course of 10-11 years.
RE: But jcn  
Greg from LI : 10/15/2019 2:26 pm : link
In comment 14629654 Johnny5 said:
Quote:
If you listen to Gilbride, he pointed out the OL as his and ultimately Coughlin's downfall on offense. He was specifically putting that on the GM.


Gilbride covering his ass after the fact is supposed to mean something?
RE: RE: But jcn  
Johnny5 : 10/15/2019 2:28 pm : link
In comment 14629658 Greg from LI said:
Quote:
In comment 14629654 Johnny5 said:


Quote:


If you listen to Gilbride, he pointed out the OL as his and ultimately Coughlin's downfall on offense. He was specifically putting that on the GM.



Gilbride covering his ass after the fact is supposed to mean something?

So do you disagree that the OL was an issue since 2012??
What?  
Greg from LI : 10/15/2019 2:30 pm : link
You need a software update from Newton Crosby, Ph.D apparently. Who said it wasn't? What I snicker about is the fact that people just take Gilbride at face value when he states years after the fact that he was yelling and screaming about the offensive line in 2012.
Thanks for posting the DG drafts Greg  
Johnny5 : 10/15/2019 2:33 pm : link
They highlight the biggest problems, OL and depth players is where DG builds a stronger roster. Aside from OL and LB ineptitude for basically his whole tenure, our depth always sucked.

I'll say it again, I think Reese had a very good eye for skill players. I don't hate the guy... lol.... but we are where we are right now because of some really REALLY poor drafting after 2007.
RE: What?  
Johnny5 : 10/15/2019 2:35 pm : link
In comment 14629664 Greg from LI said:
Quote:
You need a software update from Newton Crosby, Ph.D apparently. Who said it wasn't? What I snicker about is the fact that people just take Gilbride at face value when he states years after the fact that he was yelling and screaming about the offensive line in 2012.

Newton Crosby was good I give you props for that one... lol

He said that from the time he left as I recall, not just years after.
Reese  
PaulN : 10/15/2019 2:52 pm : link
Is the reason we are in this mess. Accorsi is the reason we won 2 Super Bowls, him and Coughlin. Accorsi is very good at drafting college players, but has made questionable moves in free agency, and hiring Shurmur, a horrible head coach. That is why this is taking so long. You can look back 5 years and prove who are good GM's by their drafts, that proves Reese sucked. Accorsi had the team set for years. The only thing that guy could draft are wideouts. In all his drafts he got onf pass rusher, Pierre Paul, who had one great year, not one good offensive lineman, not one, and one very good DT, Joseph. You look back a good GM and you see a hall of fame rusher, and 2 other great DE's. A boatload of good offensive linemen , and a hall of fame, two time super bowl mvp, but keep defending him and making yourself right.
Meant Gettleman on  
PaulN : 10/15/2019 2:58 pm : link
Line 2, good drafting questionable free agent moves, and horrible head coaching decision. Accorsi won us 2 superbowls, no question about that.
RE: Thegratfulehead....there's a lot of truth to what you are saying  
Big_N : 10/15/2019 3:06 pm : link
In comment 14629402 Zeke's Alibi said:
Quote:
These are the types of fans that would bitch at everything unless the Giants become the Patriots, and even then they'd find shit to bitch about. Unreasonable expectations. Like expecting a team with the most dead cap in the NFL to make the playoffs. Now if we do I think it would signal awesome things moving forward, but I don't think the world is falling and the guys all suck if they don't.

2020 they should definitely make the playoffs and if they don't I'd support firing PS. He's shown me enough to question his ability not just game management stuff, but schematically. DG on the other hand, I really think has done a tremendous job turning this ship around with his hands tied to Eli. I think the Solder signing stems from this so I'm not going to kill him for it even though its a bad signing. There's a lot of people here pissed he didn't take Darnold and wail on the positional value argument. These people won't be happy until he's gone or win a SB. Wait until CMC signs his new contract and where that puts RBs on the scheme of things. There's a new type of NFL RB that is highly sought after in the last few years. DG has now drafted two of these uniquely talented RBs.


Why is it unreasonable? It seems like the Giants were either winning Super bowls going to the super bowl or had a winning season since I was a kid in the 80s. Sure there were droughts but not like this. The patriots only had one more super bowl to their credit after the Giants won in 2011. OK so Reese decimated the team and now here comes Reese 2.0 DG to just announce a full blown out rebuild but not really but yea a overhaul rebuild and get rid of everyone like he did in NC. If this team is rebuilding now yet again; what the heck was it doing for the past 7 years? And why rebuild now? He should have spent some money on D and made a run for it with Eli. Otherwise fuck this what 10 years of losing seasons. I have better things to do. Is Saqoun even going to be the same after 3 years of this?
How is Gettleman Reese 2.0?  
Britt in VA : 10/15/2019 3:08 pm : link
They seem to have completely different offensive philosophies.

Basketball on grass vs. Hog Mollies.
Excuse me, team building philosophies.  
Britt in VA : 10/15/2019 3:11 pm : link
.
RE: How is Gettleman Reese 2.0?  
Big_N : 10/15/2019 3:15 pm : link
In comment 14629705 Britt in VA said:
Quote:
They seem to have completely different offensive philosophies.

Basketball on grass vs. Hog Mollies.


I meant in the sense of not retaining talent not offensive philosophy. Different offensive philosophies??? What exactly is DG philosophy anyway? This guy seem to be doing stuff by the seat of his pants.
What talent was there to retain?  
Britt in VA : 10/15/2019 3:21 pm : link
Did you want to keep Landon Collins at 85 million? How about Vernon? How about OBJ and his 90 million contract and constant sh-tshow?

What are OBJ, Collins, Vernon, and Pierre Paul doing for their new teams?

He had to blow the roster up, because Reese had run it completely into the ground. We only have like 4-5 guys left that were drafted within the past ten years by Reese. Who was the last Reese guy to get a second contract? Sheppard? That's it.
Even Reese's recent and rare successes have caveats  
Coach Red Beaulieu : 10/15/2019 3:44 pm : link
OBJ over Donald/Martin? SS over Thomas? In both instances we can thank Mcadoo's wco ffs
You can..  
FatMan in Charlotte : 10/15/2019 3:45 pm : link
do this same exercise, but Reese from 2010-2017 was really bad:

Quote:
You can do that - and line up some other teams to see how well they fared 5 years later. The average NFL career length is under 4 years.


The Giants have the least number of draftees with their team OR the least number of players still playing of any team since 2010. I'll see if i can find the article, but having 3 drafts of players no longer playing in such a short time frame was historically bad.
why are so many people giving reese credit for linval joseph?  
japanhead : 10/15/2019 4:12 pm : link
he drafted him, sure, but wasn't wise enough to re-sign him, and none of the DTs he drafted since were near as good, and even those that were servicable (hankins) weren't re-signed, and he would just draft new DTs, while neglecting other positions, until he finally overpaid for snacks in FA.

his approach to the DT position while GM here was mind-bogglingly awful to me. it's hilarious that it's being held up as evidence of what a shrewd GM he was.

i don't think he was as awful here as some do (until the flowers and apple drafts), and there's no doubt he was snakebit with the injuries to smith, nicks, manningham, boss, cruz, etc., but he handling of the DT position while here was inept.
RE: why are so many people giving reese credit for linval joseph?  
jcn56 : 10/15/2019 4:27 pm : link
In comment 14629781 japanhead said:
Quote:
he drafted him, sure, but wasn't wise enough to re-sign him, and none of the DTs he drafted since were near as good, and even those that were servicable (hankins) weren't re-signed, and he would just draft new DTs, while neglecting other positions, until he finally overpaid for snacks in FA.

his approach to the DT position while GM here was mind-bogglingly awful to me. it's hilarious that it's being held up as evidence of what a shrewd GM he was.

i don't think he was as awful here as some do (until the flowers and apple drafts), and there's no doubt he was snakebit with the injuries to smith, nicks, manningham, boss, cruz, etc., but he handling of the DT position while here was inept.


How so? He managed to restock the position with drafted players who were more cost effective. If anything that's one position where JR was tremendously effective, having drafted the likes of Coefield, Joseph, Hankins, Tomlinson.

The problem wasn't letting Joseph walk (who BTW credited Minnesota's coaching and his use in the scheme there for his improved performance). The problem was saving money by letting an established player walk for a capable reserve still on a rookie contract and then squandering the money spent in FA. Money spent on guys like Jon Beason and Geoff Schwartz. Had one good player been signed instead of those two, then it would be a much better value proposition.
RE: What talent was there to retain?  
Big_N : 10/15/2019 4:31 pm : link
In comment 14629716 Britt in VA said:
Quote:
Did you want to keep Landon Collins at 85 million? How about Vernon? How about OBJ and his 90 million contract and constant sh-tshow?

What are OBJ, Collins, Vernon, and Pierre Paul doing for their new teams?

He had to blow the roster up, because Reese had run it completely into the ground. We only have like 4-5 guys left that were drafted within the past ten years by Reese. Who was the last Reese guy to get a second contract? Sheppard? That's it.


Pretty much yeah. I don't know about 85 mil., but come on. receivers are just running wild over the middle every game.

Beckham yes. You trade Odell like WTF????


Collins..  
FatMan in Charlotte : 10/15/2019 4:33 pm : link
wasn't part of defenses letting WR's run wild??

C'mon man
I would have always wanted to keep L Collins  
Jimmy Googs : 10/15/2019 4:39 pm : link
but nowhere even close to the amount the Redskins paid.

Nowhere close...
RE: You can..  
ColHowPepper : 10/15/2019 4:46 pm : link
In comment 14629732 FatMan in Charlotte said:
Quote:
do this same exercise, but Reese from 2010-2017 was really bad:

Quote:

You can do that - and line up some other teams to see how well they fared 5 years later. The average NFL career length is under 4 years.

The Giants have the least number of draftees with their team OR the least number of players still playing of any team since 2010. I'll see if i can find the article, but having 3 drafts of players no longer playing in such a short time frame was historically bad.
Ha, ha. I think it was Ranaan that eventually put that analysis in print, pretty close to what you aver. This was some time after Ranaan challenged Reese with exactly that charge at the infamous end-of-season TC farewell presser 2015. Reese, in his typically arrogant style, said, yeah? You've got to prove that to me.
Yes, we can agree that DG's orientation toward re-building  
ColHowPepper : 10/15/2019 4:54 pm : link
and roster management in 2018 was a mistake (Solder, Omameh, Tree, Jonathan Stewart (thank you)), but if it wasn't clear then that Mara was on board, if he did not actually promote that strategic direction for 2018, it had to have become clear by July 2019. There was understandable organizational inertia and reluctance in coming to grips with just how much Eli had declined.

Digging out from six years of terrible drafting and roster construction doesn't get reversed in 1 season +. DG has made his mistakes, some significant ones tied to the outlook for 2018, but to damn him and condemn his to Reese-like ineptitude after 17 months, with many promising rookies and 2nd year players in the fold, is quite short-term thinking, imo.
RE: why are so many people giving reese credit for linval joseph?  
Coach Red Beaulieu : 10/15/2019 5:05 pm : link
In comment 14629781 japanhead said:
Quote:
he drafted him, sure, but wasn't wise enough to re-sign him, and none of the DTs he drafted since were near as good, and even those that were servicable (hankins) weren't re-signed, and he would just draft new DTs, while neglecting other positions, until he finally overpaid for snacks in FA.

his approach to the DT position while GM here was mind-bogglingly awful to me. it's hilarious that it's being held up as evidence of what a shrewd GM he was.

i don't think he was as awful here as some do (until the flowers and apple drafts), and there's no doubt he was snakebit with the injuries to smith, nicks, manningham, boss, cruz, etc., but he handling of the DT position while here was inept.

It was hubris to let Linval go. Reese thought he drafted so much talent he couldn't possibly waste money on a good DT, positional value and all, and had to save cap space for a one handed DE.
RE: Yes, we can agree that DG's orientation toward re-building  
Big_N : 10/15/2019 5:05 pm : link
In comment 14629919 ColHowPepper said:
Quote:
and roster management in 2018 was a mistake (Solder, Omameh, Tree, Jonathan Stewart (thank you)), but if it wasn't clear then that Mara was on board, if he did not actually promote that strategic direction for 2018, it had to have become clear by July 2019. There was understandable organizational inertia and reluctance in coming to grips with just how much Eli had declined.

Digging out from six years of terrible drafting and roster construction doesn't get reversed in 1 season +. DG has made his mistakes, some significant ones tied to the outlook for 2018, but to damn him and condemn his to Reese-like ineptitude after 17 months, with many promising rookies and 2nd year players in the fold, is quite short-term thinking, imo.


This guy has not earned the rep to pull the shit that he did. Mr. Jones in Dallas isn't picking up the phone to call this dude and beg him out of retirement. His record in NC is dubious at best.

If this works and I would be surprised if it does, it could just be pure dumb luck. If you want to explain to me what this is exactly I am all ears.

I do not understand the direction of this team. It is 1/2 rebuilding 1/2 trying to put together a winning season.

Eli is still not that bad of a qb. His contemporaries are still playing in the 2004 draft class. The difference is the don't have a bunch o9f college people on D. You have EE, you have odell, you have barkley, yes you have an older Eli. I see no reason why a playoff run is out of the question. If all else fails so what ? you send Eli home and draft a qb or look to free agency. But this is just a never ending nightmare.
RE: What?  
santacruzom : 10/15/2019 5:08 pm : link
In comment 14629664 Greg from LI said:
Quote:
You need a software update from Newton Crosby, Ph.D apparently.


Okay, how has no one thought to use that line on Johnny 5 until now?
I think some of Reese's OL picks  
santacruzom : 10/15/2019 5:12 pm : link
had some really decent potential but never panned out. Flowers was arguably a reach (as was Pugh), but Richburg and Beatty were both picked roughly where their projected value placed them, were considered good picks at the time, and were considered good players at some point during their brief tenure on the team. Richburg may in fact be a good player now, on the 9ers.

It's hard in some ways to tell how poor Reese's picks were because it's quite possible that the Giants just haven't been very good at developing talent across their roster. It's also quite possible that they still aren't, and that Gettleman's tenure here won't be much more highly-regarded than Reese's as a result.
Also  
santacruzom : 10/15/2019 5:15 pm : link
Pugh looked promising skill-wise as well, but just couldn't stay healthy.

Such was the fate of a lot of Reese's picks, come to think of it.
Jesus..  
FatMan in Charlotte : 10/15/2019 5:18 pm : link
Quote:
This guy has not earned the rep to pull the shit that he did. Mr. Jones in Dallas isn't picking up the phone to call this dude and beg him out of retirement. His record in NC is dubious at best.


what the fuck are you babbling about?
RE: RE: why are so many people giving reese credit for linval joseph?  
japanhead : 10/15/2019 5:36 pm : link
In comment 14629821 jcn56 said:
Quote:
In comment 14629781 japanhead said:


Quote:


he drafted him, sure, but wasn't wise enough to re-sign him, and none of the DTs he drafted since were near as good, and even those that were servicable (hankins) weren't re-signed, and he would just draft new DTs, while neglecting other positions, until he finally overpaid for snacks in FA.

his approach to the DT position while GM here was mind-bogglingly awful to me. it's hilarious that it's being held up as evidence of what a shrewd GM he was.

i don't think he was as awful here as some do (until the flowers and apple drafts), and there's no doubt he was snakebit with the injuries to smith, nicks, manningham, boss, cruz, etc., but he handling of the DT position while here was inept.



How so? He managed to restock the position with drafted players who were more cost effective. If anything that's one position where JR was tremendously effective, having drafted the likes of Coefield, Joseph, Hankins, Tomlinson.

The problem wasn't letting Joseph walk (who BTW credited Minnesota's coaching and his use in the scheme there for his improved performance). The problem was saving money by letting an established player walk for a capable reserve still on a rookie contract and then squandering the money spent in FA. Money spent on guys like Jon Beason and Geoff Schwartz. Had one good player been signed instead of those two, then it would be a much better value proposition.


yea dude.. after all, he had marvin austin and jonathan hankins on the roster, right? why retain players like joseph? or cofield before him? LMAO. the position was so strong with those "capable reserves" that he went out and signed snacks in FA to shore up the position.

not sure how you can honestly defend reese's handling of the DT position here.
Linval Joseph wasnt anything special here  
Ten Ton Hammer : 10/15/2019 5:41 pm : link
You're acting like he was as good here as he was in Minnesota and he wasnt. And even he says so.
RE: Linval Joseph wasnt anything special here  
japanhead : 10/15/2019 5:43 pm : link
In comment 14629982 Ten Ton Hammer said:
Quote:
You're acting like he was as good here as he was in Minnesota and he wasnt. And even he says so.


it was clear to a lot of people that linval was a player on the rise who had gotten better every year. i was just as pissed about letting cofield go. those were the two best DTs that reese drafted- everything else he did at the position following these two was far worse.
.  
Go Terps : 10/15/2019 5:55 pm : link
The Giants have made some huge errors since Gettleman took over. Because of their archaic organizational structure, it is difficult to ascertain which mistakes are specifically his and to what extent they are. I think we can identify three definitive mistakes and a couple questions about the Giants during Gettleman's tenure here.

Mistake #1: hiring Pat Shurmur as head coach

Shurmur's performance as Giant head coach borders on indefensible. It has been characterized by poor game management, poor usage of Barkley, and excuse making.

Mistake #2: signing Beckham to a 5 year, $95M ($65 guaranteed) contract

Besides being an asshole (anyone arguing that anymore?), Beckham was a descending player when he was signed to that contract. When he signed that deal he was coming off a season during which he had played only 4 games after sustaining two lower leg injuries. We have been told that Gettleman was ready to move him following 2017 (there were trade rumors), but the newly-hired Shurmur changed his mind. So to summarize the thought process:

Winter/Spring 2018: "I think I might be willing to trade Beckham; he's coming off injury and he's generally an asshole."
Summer 2018: "I am going to pay Beckham $65M guaranteed because Pat Shurmur says he can work with him."
Spring 2019: "I'm trading Beckham."

That is shitty, shitty resource management.

Mistake #3: Bringing Eli Manning back in 2019.

Speaking of shitty resource management, the Giants continued their recent history of half measures by both retaining Eli instead of saving $17M in cap space AND using the 6th pick overall to create a QB controversy. The results were predictable: the Giants paid $17M in potential FA help and a summer's worth of valuable starter's reps to score 31 points in two losses AND have Eli's Giant career end in embarrassment on the bench.

For a team that's been characterized by stupid decisions in the past few years, the way they handled the end of Eli's career was a whole new level of naivete.

Question #1: Was Barkley the right pick?

Thus far, the answer ranges from "inconclusive" to "no". While Barkley is a great kid and a wonderful player, the offense hasn't been any better and he's already missed games to injury - something that comes with the territory of being a running back. Further, Shurmur has utterly failed to utilize him properly.

Question #2: Why is game management so poor and why is nothing done about it?

I've posted a couple times about how NBC mentioned the fact that the Indianapolis Colts have two data analysts whose sole job is to understand game management decisions and serve as a real time resource for head coach Frank Reich. In an article in the Athletic Reich is quoted saying he will ask them real time situational questions like "If this pass is completed do we call a timeout?"

I'll ask the question again that I have asked on other threads and not seen answered: Who is the Giants' equivalent to these two guys that the Colts use? What processes are the Giants using to help them make critical game management situations? Can anyone answer this?

--------------------------------------------------------------------------

I'd say Gettleman has done well with drafting college players since he's been here, but that's the only area he stands out as having done a good job. That's good enough for the Director of College Scouting, but not for the GM.

Again, it's tough to say to what extent these errors are Gettleman's as the Giants seem to be run by a 6+ man committee instead of an actual top down command structure. But even if he isn't at fault for all of the Giants' problems, I'm not sure he's actually solving them either.
I may be able to argue some nuances there  
ron mexico : 10/15/2019 6:18 pm : link
But that is pretty spot on in my opinion.

The big changes in direction says to me that there are too many cooks in the kitchen.
I'm not ready...  
bw in dc : 10/15/2019 6:46 pm : link
to declare Shurmur a failure move, especially if Jints Central isn't allocating the right resources to help him. Which ties directly to your #2 question.

Furthermore, I can assure you Shurmur isn't getting a lot of say in Gettleman's grocery shopping. So a reasonable case can be made Shurmur hasn't been dealt the best hand. As I've mentioned before, I want to see Shurmur will a full - or almost full - arsenal of players. If the struggles continue, then let's pull the rip cord...

Let's give Shurmur some credit getting DJ ready to play. DJ looks comfortable running the system and Shurmur is obviously using more chapters in his playbook...
Shurmur will get through 2020 at least  
ron mexico : 10/15/2019 6:59 pm : link
No way they switch after 2 years again

I hope he works out.
RE: Eli was never going out like that  
joeinpa : 10/15/2019 7:18 pm : link
In comment 14629632 allstarjim said:
Quote:
Come on. We're talking about Eli Manning, the most important player in franchise history. Further, I'm pretty sure that the Giants wanted Jones to watch how Eli prepares and works as a professional.


Most important player in history?

Certainly he was one of the most important, but I can think of more than a few who were just as important or maybe more so
RE: .  
Big_N : 10/15/2019 11:16 pm : link
In comment 14630013 Go Terps said:
Quote:
The Giants have made some huge errors since Gettleman took over. Because of their archaic organizational structure, it is difficult to ascertain which mistakes are specifically his and to what extent they are. I think we can identify three definitive mistakes and a couple questions about the Giants during Gettleman's tenure here.

Mistake #1: hiring Pat Shurmur as head coach

Shurmur's performance as Giant head coach borders on indefensible. It has been characterized by poor game management, poor usage of Barkley, and excuse making.

Mistake #2: signing Beckham to a 5 year, $95M ($65 guaranteed) contract

Besides being an asshole (anyone arguing that anymore?), Beckham was a descending player when he was signed to that contract. When he signed that deal he was coming off a season during which he had played only 4 games after sustaining two lower leg injuries. We have been told that Gettleman was ready to move him following 2017 (there were trade rumors), but the newly-hired Shurmur changed his mind. So to summarize the thought process:

Winter/Spring 2018: "I think I might be willing to trade Beckham; he's coming off injury and he's generally an asshole."
Summer 2018: "I am going to pay Beckham $65M guaranteed because Pat Shurmur says he can work with him."
Spring 2019: "I'm trading Beckham."

That is shitty, shitty resource management.

Mistake #3: Bringing Eli Manning back in 2019.

Speaking of shitty resource management, the Giants continued their recent history of half measures by both retaining Eli instead of saving $17M in cap space AND using the 6th pick overall to create a QB controversy. The results were predictable: the Giants paid $17M in potential FA help and a summer's worth of valuable starter's reps to score 31 points in two losses AND have Eli's Giant career end in embarrassment on the bench.

For a team that's been characterized by stupid decisions in the past few years, the way they handled the end of Eli's career was a whole new level of naivete.

Question #1: Was Barkley the right pick?

Thus far, the answer ranges from "inconclusive" to "no". While Barkley is a great kid and a wonderful player, the offense hasn't been any better and he's already missed games to injury - something that comes with the territory of being a running back. Further, Shurmur has utterly failed to utilize him properly.

Question #2: Why is game management so poor and why is nothing done about it?

I've posted a couple times about how NBC mentioned the fact that the Indianapolis Colts have two data analysts whose sole job is to understand game management decisions and serve as a real time resource for head coach Frank Reich. In an article in the Athletic Reich is quoted saying he will ask them real time situational questions like "If this pass is completed do we call a timeout?"

I'll ask the question again that I have asked on other threads and not seen answered: Who is the Giants' equivalent to these two guys that the Colts use? What processes are the Giants using to help them make critical game management situations? Can anyone answer this?

--------------------------------------------------------------------------

I'd say Gettleman has done well with drafting college players since he's been here, but that's the only area he stands out as having done a good job. That's good enough for the Director of College Scouting, but not for the GM.

Again, it's tough to say to what extent these errors are Gettleman's as the Giants seem to be run by a 6+ man committee instead of an actual top down command structure. But even if he isn't at fault for all of the Giants' problems, I'm not sure he's actually solving them either.


All of these things really boil down to 1 thing....

Were you going to keep Eli around for a couple of years and commit to him and making a final run at the playoffs with Eli as the starting QB? Or were you going to rebuild.

That is really the main question DG had to answer at least to himself.

He could not make the decision on that. That is why the wishy-washy moves the seem to lend themselves to on the one hand this and on the other hand that decision making.

After answering this one question the next question is who is your coach? If you have a 38 yr old qb it is going to be a DC or someone who can coach an offense based off the run.

All of the other things can be forgiven. Sure you drafted too high with Saquon. Sure you paid too much for Beckham. You can still work with that. You still have wiggle room for putting together a winning team. You still have free agents and can draft for D pass rushers and better players in your secondary.

Without being able to answer these 2 fundamental questions - who is your qb and who the the right coach for the team you want to build around him...everything else is a distant second.
Go Terps  
Marty866b : 10/15/2019 11:46 pm : link
Great post and spot on.
RE: LOL  
huygens20 : 10/16/2019 12:50 am : link
In comment 14629634 Johnny5 said:
Quote:
I can understand taking a wait and see with Gettleman. But people giving Reese the amount of credit he seems to be getting here is laughable. He had an eye for skill position. He had some decent picks. But almost every single one of his draft picks past the 2nd round is out of the league. His OL and LB drafting was for the most part atrocious. To be fair, I think Ross was a big part of his problem.

How many hits in these draft classes? What 5 out of 27 picks? Why do people think we are where we are right now?

2013:
1 Justin Pugh OT
2 Johnathan Hankins DT (Hooray, a HIT! and then fails to resign him)
3 Damontre Moore DE
4 Ryan Nassib QB
5 Cooper Taylor S
7 Eric Herman G
7 Michael Cox RB

2014:
1st Odell Beckham Jr. WR (Hooray, a HIT!)
2 Weston Richburg C
3 Jay Bromley DT
4 Andre Williams RB
5 Nat Berhe S
5 Devon Kennard LB (Hooray, a HIT!)
6 Bennett Jackson DB

2015 draft class:
1ST: LT Ereck Flowers
2ND: S Landon Collins (Hooray, a HIT!)
3RD: DE Owa Odighizuwa (out of NFL)
5TH: S Mykkele Thompson (out of NFL)
6TH: WR Geremy Davis
7TH: RT Bobby Hart


2016:
1ST: CB Eli Apple
2ND: WR Sterling Shepard (Hooray, a HIT!)
3RD: S Darian Thompson
4TH: LB B.J. Goodson (OK, I guess)
5TH: RB Paul Perkins
6TH: TE Jerell Adams



Some context:

Past the 3rd round, draft picks have like a 5% or less chance of becoming a starter .

So we should be fair and to break down how many games started by each drafted player per round


Either way, Reese drafted some top players (Beckham, jpp, Collins) but he got fired because he and coughlin couldn’t develop 2nd and 3rd round picks into average players.

A guy like Eli apple is a great example of this. Massively over drafted, and turned out to be an average player.
Great Job laying it out Terps!  
.McL. : 10/16/2019 2:00 am : link
To bw, normally I agree that we should give people time to bring their vision to fruition. And that time should usually be 3 years. Continually churning through HCs keeps a team at the bottom.


What do you say to the fact that so many players at so many positions seem confused about what their assignments are. The Dallas game was a complete embarrassment in this regard. We see the OL showing frustration with each other over missed assignments and miscommunication. THe offense has a script for the first 10 or so plays, but after that, there doesn't seem to be a plan. Barkley is misused, Eli is running naked bootlegs at the goal line, and god knows their have been other calls that don't make sense, and don't make sense in light of the way the defense has started to play the Gaints. Same on defense, there is no pressure, do we see more stunts and or blitzes to bring that pressure, are we trying anything different. I don't see it. The game planning seems incomplete to say the least.

All these issues rest solely with the coaching staff. How much more do we need to see before we can decide if this coaching staff deserves more years?
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