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Boomer praised Gettleman this morning on his show.

Emlen'sGremlins : 10/14/2019 7:16 pm
Started by speaking to the MVP type player Christian McCaffrey has become in Carolina, who of course was a Gettleman pick. Then he went on to remind that Gettleman led Carolina to a Super Bowl appearance not so long ago.

Bringing it over to the Giants, he specifically praised the Jones and Barkley picks and then said the Giants have some very talented young players on the roster and mentioned Hernandez, Lawrence and Baker.

Boomer said he thinks Gettleman has proven that he has an eye for talent and the Giants are headed in the right direction. He finished by stating that he also doesn't mind when Gettleman might say one thing and do another because it's not his job to share his thoughts with anyone outside the organization (an oblivious dig at Francessa).
not his job to share his thoughts with anyone outside the organization  
Torrag : 10/14/2019 7:18 pm : link
Hear that Fatso? hah.
obvious  
Emlen'sGremlins : 10/14/2019 7:24 pm : link
obvious
Run the Ball Stop the Run Get after the passer  
Lines of Scrimmage : 10/14/2019 7:32 pm : link
DG will get the Giants back to this and that formula has served the franchise well.

Stay healthy and keep up the good work despite all the negativity you faced. The great thing is I don't think it bothers you at all.
He doesn't actually say one thing and do another...  
Milton : 10/14/2019 7:54 pm : link
It just seems that way because what he's really saying is that nothing is set in stone and all situations are fluid with possibilities. And he surely wasn't bullshitting when he said that he was willing to go RB with the 2nd overall despite the media's opinion that the position wasn't worthy of such a high pick.

When he drafted Jones with the 6th overall pick he wasn't lying when he said that the Giants could follow the KC model where Mahomes sat for a year or even the Packers/Chargers model where Rodgers/Rivers sat for two years. It just didn't turn out that way. But regardless of what his expectations might've been, he wasn't lying to say there was a possibility of Eli playing out the year and even getting an extension (i.e., Giants go deep into playoffs). Anything can happen in football, why put your foot in your mouth unnecessarily.
DG drafted top 2 fantasy studs  
Coach Red Beaulieu : 10/14/2019 8:01 pm : link
Boomer excited for his FF team.
I wouldn’t say that DG “led” Carolina to a Super Bowl  
twostepgiants : 10/14/2019 8:02 pm : link
That team had 8 players who made the Pro Bowl team and just 1 was brought on by DG - Kawann Short

He didn’t draft Cam or draft Kuechly or their big running attack or hire the HC

He certainly wasn’t the architect of that team
RE: He doesn't actually say one thing and do another...  
EricJ : 10/14/2019 8:07 pm : link
In comment 14628857 Milton said:
Quote:
It just seems that way because what he's really saying is that nothing is set in stone and all situations are fluid with possibilities.


Right... just like when he initially indicated that he was not interested in trading OBJ. Then shit happened, teams called... and here we are now
Milton  
Dr. D : 10/14/2019 8:10 pm : link
is right. He never said he was necessarily taking an ER and absolutely NOT taking a QB at 6.

And he probably didn't sign obj to trade him, but shit happens, things change. He and PS got to see what a PITA obj is and he got very good trade value, especially compared to what Pitt got for AB.

F*ck the critics, I think he's got us going in the right direction (and I'm grateful).
why would anyone be bothered  
UConn4523 : 10/14/2019 8:13 pm : link
by a GM saying one thing and doing another? Seems bizarre to not only expect that level of transparency as a fan, but to also expect that changes can't/shouldn't happen.

DG isn't perfect, but he's light years better than Reese and he's infusing a ton of talent on this roster. In fact there's more talent after 2 drafts than Reese had in his previous 4 or 5 (possibly more).

Now that Eli is out I expect DG will have free rein to build the roster without anything holding him back.
RE: why would anyone be bothered  
jcn56 : 10/14/2019 8:22 pm : link
In comment 14628874 UConn4523 said:
Quote:
by a GM saying one thing and doing another? Seems bizarre to not only expect that level of transparency as a fan, but to also expect that changes can't/shouldn't happen.

DG isn't perfect, but he's light years better than Reese and he's infusing a ton of talent on this roster. In fact there's more talent after 2 drafts than Reese had in his previous 4 or 5 (possibly more).

Now that Eli is out I expect DG will have free rein to build the roster without anything holding him back.


I wonder if we're watching the same games - Reese was the guy who won two titles - so far, Gettleman's team is on track to win 5 games again.

His FA acquisitions have been awful and with the exception of Barkley the rest of his draft picks are TBDs. Hernandez followed up a solid rookie season with struggles, and BJ Hill racked up some stats and has been very quiet this year.

I'm not even looking for a deep playoff run - just a winning season. Let's see if they can manage that next year before anyone proclaims Gettleman anything.
RE: RE: why would anyone be bothered  
Johnny5 : 10/14/2019 8:27 pm : link
In comment 14628878 jcn56 said:
Quote:
In comment 14628874 UConn4523 said:


Quote:


by a GM saying one thing and doing another? Seems bizarre to not only expect that level of transparency as a fan, but to also expect that changes can't/shouldn't happen.

DG isn't perfect, but he's light years better than Reese and he's infusing a ton of talent on this roster. In fact there's more talent after 2 drafts than Reese had in his previous 4 or 5 (possibly more).

Now that Eli is out I expect DG will have free rein to build the roster without anything holding him back.



I wonder if we're watching the same games - Reese was the guy who won two titles - so far, Gettleman's team is on track to win 5 games again.

His FA acquisitions have been awful and with the exception of Barkley the rest of his draft picks are TBDs. Hernandez followed up a solid rookie season with struggles, and BJ Hill racked up some stats and has been very quiet this year.

I'm not even looking for a deep playoff run - just a winning season. Let's see if they can manage that next year before anyone proclaims Gettleman anything.

His 2 drafts so far (at least to my eye) far FAR surpass any draft Reese ever had. But I agree on FA aside from Golden. Although I guess Mayo and Tate are decent enough.
you must not have read  
UConn4523 : 10/14/2019 8:28 pm : link
the part about Reese leaving us with shit draft after shit draft prior to DG getting here. I'm thankful for his SB wins, but what did he do post-2011?

Was Golden a shitty FA signing? Is Lawrence not one of if not our best defender? I don't really know what to tell you.

I'm of the opinion that Mara held back the forward movement of this franchise by insisting on Eli being our QB. If I'm right about that, then what exactly do you expect from a GM that's put in that situation?
to add  
UConn4523 : 10/14/2019 8:30 pm : link
I think DG would have cut Eli last season. And he definitely wanted to cut him this year but still wasn't allowed to. How can you even critique a decision maker who isn't allowed to make the most important decision to move the franchise forward?
RE: RE: RE: why would anyone be bothered  
jcn56 : 10/14/2019 8:33 pm : link
In comment 14628884 Johnny5 said:
Quote:

His 2 drafts so far (at least to my eye) far FAR surpass any draft Reese ever had. But I agree on FA aside from Golden. Although I guess Mayo and Tate are decent enough.


What does your eye use for criteria in that judgement?

It can't be performance - because the team sucks. There aren't even any impressive individual performances. Lawrence seems like he might be a good one - but the defense is putrid. Saying he's the best player on D doesn't exactly mean much.

A lot is going to hang on Jones - and I really hope that his struggles have more to do with the fact that his surrounding cast is all injured than him coming back down to Earth now that teams have some film on him.
RE: RE: RE: why would anyone be bothered  
Ten Ton Hammer : 10/14/2019 8:35 pm : link
In comment 14628884 Johnny5 said:
Quote:
In comment 14628878 jcn56 said:


Quote:


In comment 14628874 UConn4523 said:


Quote:


by a GM saying one thing and doing another? Seems bizarre to not only expect that level of transparency as a fan, but to also expect that changes can't/shouldn't happen.

DG isn't perfect, but he's light years better than Reese and he's infusing a ton of talent on this roster. In fact there's more talent after 2 drafts than Reese had in his previous 4 or 5 (possibly more).

Now that Eli is out I expect DG will have free rein to build the roster without anything holding him back.



I wonder if we're watching the same games - Reese was the guy who won two titles - so far, Gettleman's team is on track to win 5 games again.

His FA acquisitions have been awful and with the exception of Barkley the rest of his draft picks are TBDs. Hernandez followed up a solid rookie season with struggles, and BJ Hill racked up some stats and has been very quiet this year.

I'm not even looking for a deep playoff run - just a winning season. Let's see if they can manage that next year before anyone proclaims Gettleman anything.


His 2 drafts so far (at least to my eye) far FAR surpass any draft Reese ever had. But I agree on FA aside from Golden. Although I guess Mayo and Tate are decent enough.


Reese drafts produced players that directly contributed to playoff wins and super bowl wins. You can calm right down with that take. There are not two trophies in the case without Jason Pierre Paul, Hakeem Nicks, Mario Manningham, Steve Smith, and a collection of others.
RE: you must not have read  
jcn56 : 10/14/2019 8:41 pm : link
In comment 14628885 UConn4523 said:
Quote:
the part about Reese leaving us with shit draft after shit draft prior to DG getting here. I'm thankful for his SB wins, but what did he do post-2011?

Was Golden a shitty FA signing? Is Lawrence not one of if not our best defender? I don't really know what to tell you.

I'm of the opinion that Mara held back the forward movement of this franchise by insisting on Eli being our QB. If I'm right about that, then what exactly do you expect from a GM that's put in that situation?


The entire rebuild of the OL was a failure - isn't that enough?

And how would the insistence that Eli stay at QB affect only Gettleman and not Reese, given that Reese was the one who was trying to see how the team would perform with someone else at QB?

Eli's been a liability for some time - if you're going to grade on a curve, it has to be applied to both. Reese's drafts absolutely dropped off starting in 2012 (when they drafted last in every round - Gettleman's had the 2nd and 6th overall picks thus far).

Gettleman's draft picks might turn out to be pretty good - but thus far, they've done nothing - not individual performances, not specific units on the team, not team success - that would imply that he's doing a great job. On the contrary, right now the results would suggest he doesn't know what the fuck he's doing. His coaching hire is uninspiring, his FA record blows, and his draft picks are still to be determined.
So apply it to Reese  
UConn4523 : 10/14/2019 8:45 pm : link
i don’t buy it but if you do than that’s fine. 2016 was his last shot and it was too little too late with him anyway, he left the team absolutely bare, arguably the worst talent in the league.

DG hasn’t won jack shit, but he’s cleaning up Reese’s gigantic mess all while being held back by Mara until hopefully now.
RE: RE: RE: RE: why would anyone be bothered  
Scuzzlebutt : 10/14/2019 8:46 pm : link
In comment 14628896 jcn56 said:
Quote:
In comment 14628884 Johnny5 said:


Quote:



His 2 drafts so far (at least to my eye) far FAR surpass any draft Reese ever had. But I agree on FA aside from Golden. Although I guess Mayo and Tate are decent enough.



What does your eye use for criteria in that judgement?

It can't be performance - because the team sucks. There aren't even any impressive individual performances. Lawrence seems like he might be a good one - but the defense is putrid. Saying he's the best player on D doesn't exactly mean much.

A lot is going to hang on Jones - and I really hope that his struggles have more to do with the fact that his surrounding cast is all injured than him coming back down to Earth now that teams have some film on him.


It's called rebuilding for a reason. We are no worse than we were when he arrived, but we have a young QB and an influx of young talent and about 80MM in cap space next year.
RE: RE: RE: RE: why would anyone be bothered  
Johnny5 : 10/14/2019 8:54 pm : link
In comment 14628901 Ten Ton Hammer said:
Quote:


Reese drafts produced players that directly contributed to playoff wins and super bowl wins. You can calm right down with that take. There are not two trophies in the case without Jason Pierre Paul, Hakeem Nicks, Mario Manningham, Steve Smith, and a collection of others.

We can go back over it if you want to, but I really don't feel like looking it up right now. We have been down this road 10,000x. I stand by my statement all day long thet Gettleman's Car on NYG drafts are clearly better than Reese's, especially at OL, LB, and DL (Where it matters). Reese's drafts hit on a few but overall were not very good. I will always give him credit at having a good eye for skill positions, but if you analyze each and every draft of Gettleman and Reese Gettleman kicks his ass. And I'm pretty happy with DG's two Giants drafts.
Ugh. Fat fingers.  
Johnny5 : 10/14/2019 8:55 pm : link
thet Gettleman's Car on NYG drafts

Should BE:

that Gettleman's Car and NYG drafts
RE: So apply it to Reese  
Big_N : 10/14/2019 10:29 pm : link
In comment 14628910 UConn4523 said:
Quote:
i don’t buy it but if you do than that’s fine. 2016 was his last shot and it was too little too late with him anyway, he left the team absolutely bare, arguably the worst talent in the league.

DG hasn’t won jack shit, but he’s cleaning up Reese’s gigantic mess all while being held back by Mara until hopefully now.


How do you know that? He could have drafted a QB last year and sat him. Who the hell were you going to play at qb if you cut Eli last year? He was saying on draft night Jones might sit for awhile anyway. It is obvious he has no plan. He thinks you can throw a bunch of sh*t together and see if it works. If you win Eli and the JV squad defense great if you don't (and WHY THE FUCK DO YOU THINK YOU CAN WIN GAMES with that defense) well then let's go on to plan B (then C, then D) of the rebuilding while at the same time trying to win games plan. THis clown is a nightmare for any Giants fan.
RE: So apply it to Reese  
jcn56 : 10/14/2019 11:19 pm : link
In comment 14628910 UConn4523 said:
Quote:
i don’t buy it but if you do than that’s fine. 2016 was his last shot and it was too little too late with him anyway, he left the team absolutely bare, arguably the worst talent in the league.

DG hasn’t won jack shit, but he’s cleaning up Reese’s gigantic mess all while being held back by Mara until hopefully now.


Of course it wasn't absolutely bare - they won 11 games in 2016.

Injuries caused the team to crater and for McAdoo to lose control in 2017. But that talent was still there - Landon Collins ended up signing a contract so lucrative he's going to fetch a 3rd in just the comp pick. OBJ was good enough that Gettleman deemed him worthy of top WR money.

Players were all over the roster - but there were plenty of holes.

There's no debating that Reese earned his dismissal - the roster was flawed. It sure as hell wasn't bare - that's just a convenient talking point used to justify several years of non-competitive football to follow, which seems to be the Giants MO of late.

Let's see how they do against the Cardinals - who were in worse shape than the Giants. They're in the same boat and playing on the road against a team with 10 days to prepare. If the Giants can't win that one, then maybe all this talk about 'turning it around' can stop for awhile.
I am surprised ...  
short lease : 10/15/2019 12:08 am : link

he seems mostly critical toward the Giants as a rule?
There is a reason why Gettleman gets paid the big bucks  
Breeze_94 : 10/15/2019 12:13 am : link
he was the butt of everyones jokes after trading OBJ, letting Collins walk, and drafting Jones.

Jones has exceeded expectations and has the look of a franchise QB, Collins has been solid but relatively non-impactful and overpaid for Washington, and OBJ has been a bit of a dud for Cleveland while Peppers, Lawrence, and Ximines have all been key contributors on defense for a small fraction of the cost of OBJ's deal.

Considering the roster/cap situation he inherited, he has done a nice job building through the draft and making solid acquisitions like Zeitler, Tate and Golden.
RE: I wouldn’t say that DG “led” Carolina to a Super Bowl  
Leg of Theismann : 10/15/2019 4:14 am : link
In comment 14628868 twostepgiants said:
Quote:
That team had 8 players who made the Pro Bowl team and just 1 was brought on by DG - Kawann Short

He didn’t draft Cam or draft Kuechly or their big running attack or hire the HC

He certainly wasn’t the architect of that team


Did not realize those were the numbers/stats for his time in Carolina re: players he personally acquired. That’s honestly pretty bad when you think about it. So their core talent and HC (basically the reasons they went to the super bowl) were completely unrelated to him. Nice.

His lack of faith in analytics and the way he seems to go with what his eyes tell him more than anything (“I sawr a professional qwattahback”) seems like a method that will certainly get you some good football players here and there, but without giving serious thought to modern day analytics it just seems like he’ll perpetually be a step behind the other GMs as far as maximizing salary cap value to build a full and complete team is concerned. Hence why we’re sitting here saying “players x y and z all look promising etc.” but at the end of the day I think we all feel there’s something lacking in the way of the Giants really being a distinct team with a real vision and identity under Shurmur. IMO at least.
RE: DG drafted top 2 fantasy studs  
ZoneXDOA : 10/15/2019 6:22 am : link
In comment 14628865 Coach Red Beaulieu said:
Quote:
Boomer excited for his FF team.


? What are the rules in your league? DJ is on my bench for now until he breaks out. I wouldn’t say he was a fantasy stud by any means.
As stated in previous threads  
ryanmkeane : 10/15/2019 8:25 am : link
I am not concerned about Gettleman in the slightest, I think he will build a winning roster that has sustained success. The issue is Shurmur.
The goal with every draft is to get  
ryanmkeane : 10/15/2019 8:27 am : link
1-2 pro bowl caliber players and 2-3 starters. Gettleman has done that in 2018 and 2019. I think everyone is pretty confident in his draft ability. Time to hit on some free agents.
RE: I wouldn’t say that DG “led” Carolina to a Super Bowl  
ryanmkeane : 10/15/2019 8:54 am : link
In comment 14628868 twostepgiants said:
Quote:
That team had 8 players who made the Pro Bowl team and just 1 was brought on by DG - Kawann Short

He didn’t draft Cam or draft Kuechly or their big running attack or hire the HC

He certainly wasn’t the architect of that team

Bullshit. See this is the problem with people making statements about Gettleman's Super Bowl team, they think it was all the previous regime just because he didn't draft Newton, Greg Olsen, and Keuchly.

Gettleman was directly responsible for: Turner, Norwell, Williams, Remmers, Jared Allen (traded a 6th round pick for him), Star Loutulelei, Short, Ealy (career hasn't been good but was a beast that year), Shaq Thompson. He also signed Ginn and drafted Funchess, who were basically their only weapons at WR.

Gettleman was all over that roster.
I can't keep up with whether Gettleman is a genius or a bum.  
lawguy9801 : 10/15/2019 9:14 am : link
Opinions differ day to day, thread to thread on the same day, and even within the same thread.

By contrast, I take the long view and will withhold judgment until further notice. Some good and bad so far, but you have to assess from where the team came and their performance over a number of years before you can truly judge his effectiveness.
I agree. Its silly to take his temperature every week  
ron mexico : 10/15/2019 9:19 am : link
Its not like an in-season GM switch is feasible even if it were warranted, which its not. And the org is not going to move on this quickly anyway absent some sort of scandal.
Gettleman  
stretch234 : 10/15/2019 9:22 am : link
People love to bash Reese and he had some issues, and there is a very real argument that he should have been let go with Coughlin.

My biggest issue with him was he really hit on zero 3rd picks. 4-7th you get lucky. He was good on 1-2, but nothing on the 3rd. plus the overall 11-12 drafts

saying that, there are a few things to consider however

S. Smith (2) - done at 25 - 46 games as Giant
J. Alford(3) - done at 25 - 32 games
K. Phillips(1) - done at 26 - 56 games
T. Thomas (2) - done at 26 - 60 games
Manningham(3) - done at 26 - 49 games
J. Goff (5) - done at 25 - 37 games
Nicks (1) - done at 26
Sintim (2) - done at 24 - 24 games
C. Jones (3) - zero games
D. Wilson(1) - Done at 22 - 21 games

Plax shoots himself in 08 costing them a chance at back to back. JPP blows hand up in 15

When you have young good talent at skill positions that gets hurt, you have to replace it.

Throw in Snee & Baas both careers ending after 3 games in 2013

Prince has turned out to be a good corner, Apple is playing very well in NO, Linval is very good, Richburg is playing well in SF

Just look at how unlucky he was with the depth OL signings: blood clots, broken legs, etc

I am going to back whoever is running things - no one is perfect. For now, the most important thing is the QB appears to be the right choice
Then why did he get fired from Panthers?  
Big_N : 10/15/2019 9:28 am : link
Was there ever a GM that had so much animosity toward him from Players and fans?
jcn  
UConn4523 : 10/15/2019 9:32 am : link
not really much drafted talent in 2016. Other than Beckham and Collins, what Reese drafted players were any good? It was all FA spending that did it, and then a year later that strategy crashed and burned and continued to burn for a few more years. Collins just got paid and is playing like an average at best Safety and Beckham is also gone. But the crime is that OLine, just whiff after whiff after whiff. Hernandez, while still progressing, has as much promise as any lineman I can remember Reese drafting, probably more.
Does this..  
FatMan in Charlotte : 10/15/2019 9:33 am : link
have to be constantly rehashed??

He was fired from the Panthers because he looked to move Thomas Davis and Greg Olsen before they were done as effective players and the owner blocked him from doing so.

The same owner who was forced to sell the team for grab-assing female employees and who put a former Top Cat in charge when he stepped down.

I'm always perplexed as to why people try to minimize that Gettleman helped the Panthers get to a SB, and nobody really talks about how he took a really bad cap situation and turned it around in just one season.
RE: RE: I wouldn’t say that DG “led” Carolina to a Super Bowl  
Platos : 10/15/2019 9:39 am : link
In comment 14629184 ryanmkeane said:
Quote:
In comment 14628868 twostepgiants said:


Quote:


That team had 8 players who made the Pro Bowl team and just 1 was brought on by DG - Kawann Short

He didn’t draft Cam or draft Kuechly or their big running attack or hire the HC

He certainly wasn’t the architect of that team


Bullshit. See this is the problem with people making statements about Gettleman's Super Bowl team, they think it was all the previous regime just because he didn't draft Newton, Greg Olsen, and Keuchly.

Gettleman was directly responsible for: Turner, Norwell, Williams, Remmers, Jared Allen (traded a 6th round pick for him), Star Loutulelei, Short, Ealy (career hasn't been good but was a beast that year), Shaq Thompson. He also signed Ginn and drafted Funchess, who were basically their only weapons at WR.

Gettleman was all over that roster.


thank you, i didn't want to have to go through 3 seasons of gettleman's time there to prove that was wrong lol. he got there in 2013, i think 2 years of management contributed to a 15-1 season. hell Reese won his first year and we were ready to erase all of arcosi's work building that team lol.
RE: Does this..  
5BowlsSoon : 10/15/2019 9:40 am : link
In comment 14629224 FatMan in Charlotte said:
Quote:
have to be constantly rehashed??

He was fired from the Panthers because he looked to move Thomas Davis and Greg Olsen before they were done as effective players and the owner blocked him from doing so.

The same owner who was forced to sell the team for grab-assing female employees and who put a former Top Cat in charge when he stepped down.

I'm always perplexed as to why people try to minimize that Gettleman helped the Panthers get to a SB, and nobody really talks about how he took a really bad cap situation and turned it around in just one season.


Yep....these same people have an agenda and they will never accept DG and applaud his good moves because that would show the world DG is a lot better/smarter than they want to give him credit for. I personally think the ones who are most upset with DG are the ones who hated losing Odell....or possibly the ones who hated the DJ pick at 6.

On a side note, I do not agree with every decision DG makes....some of his FA acquisitions have perplexed me, but overall, I’m very pleased with the direction the Gmen are trending and feel good about that. Of course, as Dallas is similarly experiencing, injuries to key players can derail a lot of the good we are hoping to see.
RE: Then why did he get fired from Panthers?  
FatMan in Charlotte : 10/15/2019 9:46 am : link
In comment 14629220 Big_N said:
Quote:
Was there ever a GM that had so much animosity toward him from Players and fans?


Ask Panthers fans if they liked him as GM. They did and they would much rather have him here than Marty Hurney.
You think the Panthers are regretting spending....  
Britt in VA : 10/15/2019 9:48 am : link
a top ten pick on a RB right now?
I think his winning exec of the year...  
Dan in the Springs : 10/15/2019 9:50 am : link
the one awarded via a vote of current NFL execs (his peers) shows that those who do the work he does admired greatly the work he did in CAR.

To me that means more than the SB appearance in evaluating his success there.
Panthers  
ryanmkeane : 10/15/2019 10:07 am : link
went to the playoffs 4 times in Gettleman's tenure including a Super Bowl loss. He was the GM for 5 seasons. That is an extremely good tenure. He was promptly fired by their ridiculous owner.
It's actually somewhat hard to believe  
ryanmkeane : 10/15/2019 10:09 am : link
that someone would say 'Gettleman wasn't responsible for that team.' He basically brought in their entire OL and DL that went to the Super Bowl!!
Mook..  
FatMan in Charlotte : 10/15/2019 10:14 am : link
has argued that Gettleman might be the Panthers 3rd or 4th best GM!!

Claimed his record was a product of having Cam and Kuechly. And he also claimed that the record wasn't that impressive.

Some posters have gone out of their way to crap on his time in Carolina. The motivation for that still escapes me.
RE: RE: RE: RE: why would anyone be bothered  
NikkiMac : 10/15/2019 10:19 am : link
In comment 14628896 jcn56 said:
Quote:
In comment 14628884 Johnny5 said:


Quote:



His 2 drafts so far (at least to my eye) far FAR surpass any draft Reese ever had. But I agree on FA aside from Golden. Although I guess Mayo and Tate are decent enough.



What does your eye use for criteria in that judgement?

It can't be performance - because the team sucks. There aren't even any impressive individual performances. Lawrence seems like he might be a good one - but the defense is putrid. Saying he's the best player on D doesn't exactly mean much.

A lot is going to hang on Jones - and I really hope that his struggles have more to do with the fact that his surrounding cast is all injured than him coming back down to Earth now that teams have some film on him.


Cmon man how many rookie QBs tear up the league in they’re first year

Especially with a shit Oline
Not sure what you're saying  
jcn56 : 10/15/2019 10:30 am : link
you think it's OK to just assume he's going to be very good to great at this point?

I'm not blaming him for anything - it's too soon to tell. Which is exactly why giving Gettleman credit for it at this point is ridiculous.
so why reach for him at 6?  
Big_N : 10/15/2019 10:31 am : link
DJ looks ok but still waiting to see that spark from him. My guess is he'll be effective against low level teams like the cards. He can throw to wide open receivers on blown coverages and can probably run a little against undisciplined defenses that won't stay in their lanes. But I don't know....

I am still perplexed by his teetering of trying to win and rebuild at the same time. it just makes for moves that you turn your head sideways. Also I just don't see Shurmur ever holding a Lombardi trophy in his hand and raising it ....

Where are all the fans that hated the pick? It seem slike everyone here is like some Duke fan or something just ready to blow one in their shorts about a guy who nobody thought looked good enough to be a 6 make it in this league.
Ahh..  
FatMan in Charlotte : 10/15/2019 10:33 am : link
the old reach comment.

Expected from a troll/dupe from 10/19.

You sound like you aren't too bright there, Ace.
RE: jcn  
jcn56 : 10/15/2019 10:36 am : link
In comment 14629223 UConn4523 said:
Quote:
not really much drafted talent in 2016. Other than Beckham and Collins, what Reese drafted players were any good? It was all FA spending that did it, and then a year later that strategy crashed and burned and continued to burn for a few more years. Collins just got paid and is playing like an average at best Safety and Beckham is also gone. But the crime is that OLine, just whiff after whiff after whiff. Hernandez, while still progressing, has as much promise as any lineman I can remember Reese drafting, probably more.


Sterling Shepard is still a starter here. Eli Apple is starting in NO. Paul Perkins is on Detroit's roster.

Shit, BJ Goodson is seeing the field plenty in GB and doing a good job for a guy drafted 109th overall.

Remember the Giants 4th round draft pick from last year? Drafted one pick earlier - where's he now?
Big_N  
ryanmkeane : 10/15/2019 10:36 am : link
are you actually trying to say that if we hated the pick at first, but then the guy turns out to be awesome, that we are still supposed to hate the player/pick?
jcn  
ryanmkeane : 10/15/2019 10:39 am : link
Eli Apple sucks, he's a terrible corner. Have you watched him play this season? He's almost worse than when he was on our team. Perkins hasn't seen a snap in Detroit. He's a practice squad level player. Goodson is getting time in Green Bay, averaging about 2 tackles a game.

Am I in the twilight zone? What is going on here?
jcn  
ryanmkeane : 10/15/2019 10:40 am : link
no, Goodson is not doing a good job for a guy picked at 109th overall. He has 15 tackles on the season.
Paul Perkins..  
FatMan in Charlotte : 10/15/2019 10:40 am : link
is Detroit's 4th or 5th string RB and he's accumulated no stats for them. I'm not sure what point is being made by his presence on a NFL roster.
RE: It's actually somewhat hard to believe  
Greg from LI : 10/15/2019 10:40 am : link
In comment 14629275 ryanmkeane said:
Quote:
that someone would say 'Gettleman wasn't responsible for that team.' He basically brought in their entire OL and DL that went to the Super Bowl!!


They had, I think, nine Pro Bowlers on that team. Gettleman acquired one of them, the rest were on the roster the day he was hired. So, yeah, I say he was hardly the architect of that team.
There are certainly arguments to be made about  
ryanmkeane : 10/15/2019 10:42 am : link
getting rid of Beckham and Snacks. Everyone else that Gettleman has moved on from has been the right move.
It is difficult to say...  
FatMan in Charlotte : 10/15/2019 10:43 am : link
that Gettleman's trades and drafting haven't been very good.

Just like it would be difficult to say that his FA moves have been good.
Greg...  
ryanmkeane : 10/15/2019 10:48 am : link
The Pro Bowlers were Newton, Stewart, Olsen, Kalil, Turner, Tolbert, Kuechly, Davis, Norman, and Short. Gettleman is responsible for drafting Turner and Short. He signed Davis to a 2 year contract extension before the start of the 2015 season, so that's his move. He signed Newton to a 5 year extension before the 2015 season (although that was kind of obvious). He signed Olsen to a 3 year extension before the start of the 2015 season. He is also responsible for about 90% of the starting OL and DL from that team.
One of Gettleman's..  
FatMan in Charlotte : 10/15/2019 10:53 am : link
best moves in Carolina and one that was a bold one to make was not resigning Norman and letting him walk.

Say what you want about Gettleman, but he has stones, which is why when posters insinuate he's been given mandates by ownership to follow, I just shake my head.
RE: RE: jcn  
UConn4523 : 10/15/2019 11:01 am : link
In comment 14629327 jcn56 said:
Quote:
In comment 14629223 UConn4523 said:


Quote:


not really much drafted talent in 2016. Other than Beckham and Collins, what Reese drafted players were any good? It was all FA spending that did it, and then a year later that strategy crashed and burned and continued to burn for a few more years. Collins just got paid and is playing like an average at best Safety and Beckham is also gone. But the crime is that OLine, just whiff after whiff after whiff. Hernandez, while still progressing, has as much promise as any lineman I can remember Reese drafting, probably more.



Sterling Shepard is still a starter here. Eli Apple is starting in NO. Paul Perkins is on Detroit's roster.

Shit, BJ Goodson is seeing the field plenty in GB and doing a good job for a guy drafted 109th overall.

Remember the Giants 4th round draft pick from last year? Drafted one pick earlier - where's he now?


I forgot about Shepard. The others you seem to be giving credit for “still being here” which is a low barometer. Perkins isn’t good and Apple looks to have leveled out to average but simply wasn’t fit for NY.

Yeah Lauletta is gone. I’m not sure your point, did I say his draft record was spotless? I said he isn’t a perfect GM but he’s infused more talent on this team than Reese did since the last Super Bowl. You seem to think something else about my statements and I don’t know why, it’s all right there for you to read.

I also didn’t mention Connelly and what looks to be a 5th round gem. Too bad we have to wait until next year now but he looked better in those couple games than any Reese draft pick at LBer.
RE: Panthers  
5BowlsSoon : 10/15/2019 11:05 am : link
In comment 14629273 ryanmkeane said:
Quote:
went to the playoffs 4 times in Gettleman's tenure including a Super Bowl loss. He was the GM for 5 seasons. That is an extremely good tenure. He was promptly fired by their ridiculous owner.


Those results say it all. Thanks for posting this for all to see......unfortunately some here don’t have eyes to see and ears to hear. (Blind and deaf)
The problem with Gettleman discussion, as I see it here....  
Britt in VA : 10/15/2019 11:08 am : link
is that there is/was a large contingent of posters who think he was hired on a mandate from ownership as a yes man, and resigned themselves to more of the same.

There were multiple threads, by multiple posters, with 100's of posts pondering whether it was okay to fire Gettleman before he even fielded his first team here. Think about the hysterics involved in that. Hiring a GM, only to fire him before he's even gotten to the pre-season? That was a hot topic here for months, and only exacerbated when we passed on Darnold for Barkley.

They won't admit it, but they were dug WAY in on their opinion of Gettleman before the ink was dry on his contract. We are still seeing the remnants of that.
RE: RE: Panthers  
Britt in VA : 10/15/2019 11:11 am : link
In comment 14629365 5BowlsSoon said:
Quote:
In comment 14629273 ryanmkeane said:


Quote:


went to the playoffs 4 times in Gettleman's tenure including a Super Bowl loss. He was the GM for 5 seasons. That is an extremely good tenure. He was promptly fired by their ridiculous owner.



Those results say it all. Thanks for posting this for all to see......unfortunately some here don’t have eyes to see and ears to hear. (Blind and deaf)


Interestingly enough, many will tell you that it was Jerry Reese who was responsible for the 2007 team (and make no mistake, his draft class in 2007 played a HUGE part in that championship). They won't give Gettleman credit because the team was built before he got there, but they'll turn around and give Reese credit for 2007.

Both deserve credit.
RE: The problem with Gettleman discussion, as I see it here....  
ryanmkeane : 10/15/2019 11:13 am : link
In comment 14629368 Britt in VA said:
Quote:
is that there is/was a large contingent of posters who think he was hired on a mandate from ownership as a yes man, and resigned themselves to more of the same.

There were multiple threads, by multiple posters, with 100's of posts pondering whether it was okay to fire Gettleman before he even fielded his first team here. Think about the hysterics involved in that. Hiring a GM, only to fire him before he's even gotten to the pre-season? That was a hot topic here for months, and only exacerbated when we passed on Darnold for Barkley.

They won't admit it, but they were dug WAY in on their opinion of Gettleman before the ink was dry on his contract. We are still seeing the remnants of that.

Well, to be fair, some posters will always be negative regardless of the success. If Gettleman wins a championship here, some posters will still be miserable fucks. Just the way it is.
I'll 100% admit to the fact that I didn't love  
Dnew15 : 10/15/2019 11:15 am : link
the DG or the PS hiring - at all. I thought it was the Giants going back to their old ways of hiring the status quo.

I'll also admit that I didn't want SB - I wanted a QB.

I will say this though - I have done a 180 on those guys. I now find myself actually defending both of them and kinda like what they've done so far.

I think they had their hand forced by ownership to operate in the fashion that they did - and now - I support them b/c I think they're doing a good job.

I can admit when I'm wrong.
RE: RE: RE: Panthers  
5BowlsSoon : 10/15/2019 11:16 am : link
In comment 14629372 Britt in VA said:
Quote:
In comment 14629365 5BowlsSoon said:


Quote:


In comment 14629273 ryanmkeane said:


Quote:


went to the playoffs 4 times in Gettleman's tenure including a Super Bowl loss. He was the GM for 5 seasons. That is an extremely good tenure. He was promptly fired by their ridiculous owner.



Those results say it all. Thanks for posting this for all to see......unfortunately some here don’t have eyes to see and ears to hear. (Blind and deaf)



Interestingly enough, many will tell you that it was Jerry Reese who was responsible for the 2007 team (and make no mistake, his draft class in 2007 played a HUGE part in that championship). They won't give Gettleman credit because the team was built before he got there, but they'll turn around and give Reese credit for 2007.

Both deserve credit.


Good point.
In the Past: in Reese I trust
In the Present: in Gettleman I trust
RE: RE: The problem with Gettleman discussion, as I see it here....  
Britt in VA : 10/15/2019 11:16 am : link
In comment 14629374 ryanmkeane said:
Quote:
In comment 14629368 Britt in VA said:


Quote:


is that there is/was a large contingent of posters who think he was hired on a mandate from ownership as a yes man, and resigned themselves to more of the same.

There were multiple threads, by multiple posters, with 100's of posts pondering whether it was okay to fire Gettleman before he even fielded his first team here. Think about the hysterics involved in that. Hiring a GM, only to fire him before he's even gotten to the pre-season? That was a hot topic here for months, and only exacerbated when we passed on Darnold for Barkley.

They won't admit it, but they were dug WAY in on their opinion of Gettleman before the ink was dry on his contract. We are still seeing the remnants of that.


Well, to be fair, some posters will always be negative regardless of the success. If Gettleman wins a championship here, some posters will still be miserable fucks. Just the way it is.


Yeah, but this particular instance, I felt was more unhinged than what I've seen in the past? Sign of the times? A near decade of losing taking it's toll? Maybe both.
Yeah....  
Britt in VA : 10/15/2019 11:17 am : link
Quote:
Good point.
In the Past: in Reese I trust
In the Present: in Gettleman I trust


I was a big In Reese I trust Guy, until the core deteriorated and he didn't really appear to have any plan in place to fix it.
RE: The problem with Gettleman discussion, as I see it here....  
Thegratefulhead : 10/15/2019 11:18 am : link
In comment 14629368 Britt in VA said:
Quote:
is that there is/was a large contingent of posters who think he was hired on a mandate from ownership as a yes man, and resigned themselves to more of the same.

There were multiple threads, by multiple posters, with 100's of posts pondering whether it was okay to fire Gettleman before he even fielded his first team here. Think about the hysterics involved in that. Hiring a GM, only to fire him before he's even gotten to the pre-season? That was a hot topic here for months, and only exacerbated when we passed on Darnold for Barkley.

They won't admit it, but they were dug WAY in on their opinion of Gettleman before the ink was dry on his contract. We are still seeing the remnants of that.
Miserable...Some people are just miserable, They want everyone to be miserable with them. Think about some of the posters. Can you remember a time other than a SB win when they were happy about anything ? Some people pan every single decision the team makes. I wish I could block them and never see their posts again. Tiresome.
I get that people are frustrated with the teams struggles  
Brown Recluse : 10/15/2019 11:19 am : link
but some of you are so jaded at this point that you can't even make well-reasoned points anymore and are simply making stuff up.

Holy crap.
RE: I'll 100% admit to the fact that I didn't love  
Thegratefulhead : 10/15/2019 11:19 am : link
In comment 14629377 Dnew15 said:
Quote:
the DG or the PS hiring - at all. I thought it was the Giants going back to their old ways of hiring the status quo.

I'll also admit that I didn't want SB - I wanted a QB.

I will say this though - I have done a 180 on those guys. I now find myself actually defending both of them and kinda like what they've done so far.

I think they had their hand forced by ownership to operate in the fashion that they did - and now - I support them b/c I think they're doing a good job.

I can admit when I'm wrong.
Congratulations on being an adult. Most never make it.
RE: The problem with Gettleman discussion, as I see it here....  
jcn56 : 10/15/2019 11:20 am : link
In comment 14629368 Britt in VA said:
Quote:
is that there is/was a large contingent of posters who think he was hired on a mandate from ownership as a yes man, and resigned themselves to more of the same.

There were multiple threads, by multiple posters, with 100's of posts pondering whether it was okay to fire Gettleman before he even fielded his first team here. Think about the hysterics involved in that. Hiring a GM, only to fire him before he's even gotten to the pre-season? That was a hot topic here for months, and only exacerbated when we passed on Darnold for Barkley.

They won't admit it, but they were dug WAY in on their opinion of Gettleman before the ink was dry on his contract. We are still seeing the remnants of that.


There are posts **in this thread** - defending him because he was FORCED to be a yes man - and giving him a pass by stating that he wanted to cut Eli but was forced to retain him. So, I don't think that's particularly fair.

I think most of the criticism of Gettleman's hiring was due to the fact that he was a Giants insider. That was my concern, and it remains that way. Very little was done to shake up the operation - Reese and Ross out, Gettleman and Koncz in. The scouting operations remained largely the same. This, after a token hiring process that didn't exactly inspire confidence (did anyone think they were ever seriously going to hire the only external candidate, Riddick?).

The Giants desperately needed some new blood. They had gotten stagnant, were falling behind the league in a number of different ways, and needed someone to take them out of their comfort zone for a bit. Instead, they called in Accorsi, hired Gettleman, the scouts were all safe, and they got a retread HC. And thus far, no matter how much anyone wants to sugar coat it - the results are not good.
I thought we hated Boomer  
Metnut : 10/15/2019 11:23 am : link
because he's always been mean to Eli?
I get the Accorsi thing....  
Britt in VA : 10/15/2019 11:23 am : link
but you know, other teams use Accorsi as a consultant too, so maybe it's not just a Giants thing, maybe the guy has some good insight. And as a Giant himself, Accorsi probably wanted to get it right, which is an added value for us.
RE: I thought we hated Boomer  
Britt in VA : 10/15/2019 11:24 am : link
In comment 14629391 Metnut said:
Quote:
because he's always been mean to Eli?


I don't care about Boomer. I don't know if he even believes what he says.

I'm just responding to the discussion at hand.
Ernie Accorsi  
Chris684 : 10/15/2019 11:26 am : link
Took Kerry Collins off the scrap heap for peanuts directly leading to another Super Bowl appearance and was the turning point for us exiting QB hell of mid 90's and then engineered the trade for Eli Manning and NYG fans bitch about the franchise consulting him from time to time?

Only Giants fans....
RE: I get the Accorsi thing....  
jcn56 : 10/15/2019 11:27 am : link
In comment 14629392 Britt in VA said:
Quote:
but you know, other teams use Accorsi as a consultant too, so maybe it's not just a Giants thing, maybe the guy has some good insight. And as a Giant himself, Accorsi probably wanted to get it right, which is an added value for us.


I don't doubt that he does. And I also don't think Gettleman is a bad GM. I just think both were entirely wrong for the Giants given that they were too close to the situation.

The fact that not one credible outsider was brought in to the process should have presented some red flags.
Thegratfulehead....there's a lot of truth to what you are saying  
Zeke's Alibi : 10/15/2019 11:29 am : link
These are the types of fans that would bitch at everything unless the Giants become the Patriots, and even then they'd find shit to bitch about. Unreasonable expectations. Like expecting a team with the most dead cap in the NFL to make the playoffs. Now if we do I think it would signal awesome things moving forward, but I don't think the world is falling and the guys all suck if they don't.

2020 they should definitely make the playoffs and if they don't I'd support firing PS. He's shown me enough to question his ability not just game management stuff, but schematically. DG on the other hand, I really think has done a tremendous job turning this ship around with his hands tied to Eli. I think the Solder signing stems from this so I'm not going to kill him for it even though its a bad signing. There's a lot of people here pissed he didn't take Darnold and wail on the positional value argument. These people won't be happy until he's gone or win a SB. Wait until CMC signs his new contract and where that puts RBs on the scheme of things. There's a new type of NFL RB that is highly sought after in the last few years. DG has now drafted two of these uniquely talented RBs.
RE: RE: I get the Accorsi thing....  
Britt in VA : 10/15/2019 11:30 am : link
In comment 14629398 jcn56 said:
Quote:
In comment 14629392 Britt in VA said:


Quote:


but you know, other teams use Accorsi as a consultant too, so maybe it's not just a Giants thing, maybe the guy has some good insight. And as a Giant himself, Accorsi probably wanted to get it right, which is an added value for us.



I don't doubt that he does. And I also don't think Gettleman is a bad GM. I just think both were entirely wrong for the Giants given that they were too close to the situation.

The fact that not one credible outsider was brought in to the process should have presented some red flags.


Yeah, but the BIG concern was that they were going to be too loyal to Manning, which has now proven to be untrue.
With a QB drafted sixth overall and Manning benched after two games, that fear is/was unfounded.
A lot of people forget that Accorsi was hired by Carolina....  
Britt in VA : 10/15/2019 11:51 am : link
for their GM search in 2012, which led to Gettleman there.
Myself included, btw....  
Britt in VA : 10/15/2019 11:54 am : link
I was just looking back at Accorsi's consulting work.

He helped Carolina hire Gettleman in 2012, he helped Chicago hire a new GM in 2014, he helped Detroit hire a new GM in 2015, and then he helped us with the hiring of Gettleman in 2017/18.
He's drafting well  
AcesUp : 10/15/2019 11:55 am : link
IMV it's the most important responsibility of the GM. The shine does wear off on your young guys fairly quickly though (see 2014 draft). Most fans unrealistically expect steady and linear progression from every guy. That just doesn't happen across the board. Injuries will happen, egos will happen and some guys just flat out won't progress beyond what they show early. The early returns are VERY promising though, as good as you could hope for at this point, so he deserves a lot of credit for that. On the otherhand, he's made some mistakes, some big ones. I think his roster assessment last offseason was a huge one and probably set this rebuild back a season. We started our rebuild about 12 months ago when it should have been done 18 months ago. His batting average in UFA has been pretty bad as well. So it's a mixed bag in my opinion, he's made some moves that we know for a fact were mistakes while the things that he's done well are showing promise but still kind of an unknown. All things being equal, I'd rather connect on the draft picks than on UFA, with some cap waste early on in the reconstruction, so I am encouraged with what he's done on that front.
DG and his scouts  
Coach Red Beaulieu : 10/15/2019 11:57 am : link
seem to hump it and use their eyes to scout, unlike Reese who just looks up measurables in a spreadsheet.
RE: The problem with Gettleman discussion, as I see it here....  
Jimmy Googs : 10/15/2019 12:11 pm : link
In comment 14629368 Britt in VA said:
Quote:
is that there is/was a large contingent of posters who think he was hired on a mandate from ownership as a yes man, and resigned themselves to more of the same.

There were multiple threads, by multiple posters, with 100's of posts pondering whether it was okay to fire Gettleman before he even fielded his first team here. Think about the hysterics involved in that. Hiring a GM, only to fire him before he's even gotten to the pre-season? That was a hot topic here for months, and only exacerbated when we passed on Darnold for Barkley.



Recall discussions on whether the hiring process was a bit of a sham, but not the rest you speak about above. What prompted the hire but now must fire opinions even before the draft?
Accorsi..  
FatMan in Charlotte : 10/15/2019 12:13 pm : link
also consulted with the Colts on recent HC hirings.

But he does it for the Giants and it is looked at as rubber stamping the Giants way.
I don't think it was any one thing that prompted it....  
Britt in VA : 10/15/2019 12:16 pm : link
Perhaps saying he thought Eli still had life left? Perhaps the run the ball, rush the passer mantra being old? Definitely drafting Barkley over Darnold....

Just any and every move seemed to draw harsh criticism.
RE: Big_N  
Big_N : 10/15/2019 12:19 pm : link
In comment 14629328 ryanmkeane said:
Quote:
are you actually trying to say that if we hated the pick at first, but then the guy turns out to be awesome, that we are still supposed to hate the player/pick?


OK but can we wait for him to be awesome first?

Reaching for Mahomes makes sense. reaching for a guy who predictably played 2 bad games in a row now as a rookie and understandably since he is a rookie with no real college accolades; doesn't make sense.

He still could have gotten him at 17 and Josh Allen at 6. Or who knows maybe we could have gotten someone else. I just don't like what I see from the guy to just fell in love with a pick; reach to get him; bring back Eli also. There's too many things wrong with that. But who knows we'll see.

And to follow up on my previous post....  
Britt in VA : 10/15/2019 12:21 pm : link
every move was believed to be based on extending Eli's career, and therefore wholly criticized, not for the move itself, but because of the belief that it was only done for one person.

Now, we know that all to be untrue. But it doesn't erase 18 months of that belief overnight.
RE: A lot of people forget that Accorsi was hired by Carolina....  
Big_N : 10/15/2019 12:21 pm : link
In comment 14629435 Britt in VA said:
Quote:
for their GM search in 2012, which led to Gettleman there.


that is really weird. I can't see them agreeing on much, Ernie would never draft a RB that high.
It is very..  
FatMan in Charlotte : 10/15/2019 12:22 pm : link
much in doubt that Jones would have been there at 17.

It is like you are ticking off a checklist of talking points from 12 weeks ago.
So do we like Boomer now?  
HomerJones45 : 10/15/2019 12:24 pm : link
because normally around here it's hard to tell whether his name is "Boomer" or "asshole".
Boomer sucks regardless of what he said.  
Britt in VA : 10/15/2019 12:24 pm : link
.
RE: Does this..  
bw in dc : 10/15/2019 12:26 pm : link
In comment 14629224 FatMan in Charlotte said:
Quote:
have to be constantly rehashed??

He was fired from the Panthers because he looked to move Thomas Davis and Greg Olsen before they were done as effective players and the owner blocked him from doing so.



That's half the story.

From the Charlotte Observer:

Quote:
In interviews with more than a dozen team and league sources, the Observer learned that Gettleman’s brusque management style – which had made him unpopular with some Carolina players from his earliest days as GM – had begun to wear thin throughout the organization.

Some staffers also didn’t like how Gettleman reshaped the roster following the 2015 Super Bowl season, leaving yawning gaps in the secondary and along the offensive line that were exposed during a 6-10 campaign last year.

The bridges that were burned with former players, the growing tension within the building and some of the post-Super Bowl personnel decisions – notably rescinding cornerback Josh Norman’s franchise tag in April 2016 – played a part in Gettleman’s ouster.


Yes, the Olson and Davis situations were a part, but it looks like they were the "tipping point"...
Gettleman Firing - ( New Window )
Josh Norman was one of those holes (pun intended).  
Britt in VA : 10/15/2019 12:28 pm : link
It was the right move to let him walk.
Some of you  
TrueBlue56 : 10/15/2019 12:29 pm : link
That don't want to give much to any credit to gettleman for what Carolina did while he was there; need to take a look at Carolina's record prior to him being GM and what they have done since his departure.
RE: I don't think it was any one thing that prompted it....  
Jimmy Googs : 10/15/2019 12:32 pm : link
In comment 14629484 Britt in VA said:
Quote:
Perhaps saying he thought Eli still had life left? Perhaps the run the ball, rush the passer mantra being old? Definitely drafting Barkley over Darnold....

Just any and every move seemed to draw harsh criticism.


Of course as many have opinions as to what is wrong and how to fix and what comes first. Criticism and even harsh but I don’t think that is the same thing you are intimating above which is just “fire”. If so the firing crowd was just a not hire crowd in the first place.
RE: And to follow up on my previous post....  
Jimmy Googs : 10/15/2019 12:51 pm : link
In comment 14629494 Britt in VA said:
Quote:
every move was believed to be based on extending Eli's career, and therefore wholly criticized, not for the move itself, but because of the belief that it was only done for one person.

Now, we know that all to be untrue. But it doesn't erase 18 months of that belief overnight.


And following up on this statement...

a lot of the criticism was indeed valid as many here believed Eli was enough of an issue that he should have been addressed earlier but wasn’t. Whether it took DG a year to figure that out or he was forced to go along then much was done for one person and possibly true.

Needless to say he went in a different direction in year 2...
RE: And to follow up on my previous post....  
ron mexico : 10/15/2019 1:06 pm : link
In comment 14629494 Britt in VA said:
Quote:
every move was believed to be based on extending Eli's career, and therefore wholly criticized, not for the move itself, but because of the belief that it was only done for one person.

Now, we know that all to be untrue. But it doesn't erase 18 months of that belief overnight.


Wait, why is this untrue now? How does Shurmur benching Eli after game 2 absolve Gettleman for bringing him back for “one more run” in the first place?
Eli, his big salary combined with mediocre play, and  
RollBlue : 10/15/2019 1:15 pm : link
piss poor coaching have been the primary culprits. How a team can go 11-5 with a poor head coach (Mara's choice, I believe, more than Reese) and the cupboard bare defies logic. It was time to move on from Reese, but he should be treated with respect for being a big part of 2 Super Bowls. Arguing otherwise is just the height of stupidity, and then some.

In regards to Gettleman, he hasn't fixed the O-Line, has overspent on FA, his HC looks like a poor choice (again, maybe Mara played a part) and he has drafted in the number 2 and 6 slots, that makes a difference. Having said all that, it certainly appears that he may have hit a home run by getting Barkley last year, and Jones this year, with Jones being more important by far. If he's as good or better than Darnold 2-3 years from now.......
RE: Accorsi..  
jcn56 : 10/15/2019 1:19 pm : link
In comment 14629481 FatMan in Charlotte said:
Quote:
also consulted with the Colts on recent HC hirings.

But he does it for the Giants and it is looked at as rubber stamping the Giants way.


Do you remember how many candidates were part of the Colts' GM search?

The reason it looked like a rubber stamp was because the process was limited to an internal candidate who was an obvious courtesy candidate (and was later fired), Gettleman, and an ESPN analyst. The Colts had six candidates that they interviewed after narrowing down their list.
RE: RE: And to follow up on my previous post....  
Now Mike in MD : 10/15/2019 1:22 pm : link
In comment 14629565 ron mexico said:
Quote:
In comment 14629494 Britt in VA said:


Quote:


every move was believed to be based on extending Eli's career, and therefore wholly criticized, not for the move itself, but because of the belief that it was only done for one person.

Now, we know that all to be untrue. But it doesn't erase 18 months of that belief overnight.



Wait, why is this untrue now? How does Shurmur benching Eli after game 2 absolve Gettleman for bringing him back for “one more run” in the first place?


Why do people keep saying this when it is not true. Eli's roster bonus of 5 mill was due BEFORE the draft. At that point in time, DG had no idea whether a QB he wanted would be available let alone whether if Jones was picked, he would pick things up this quickly. Cutting Eli in March would have made no sense and left the team completely strapped at the QB position.
Disagree  
ron mexico : 10/15/2019 1:28 pm : link
any number of stop gaps could have been brought in to perform near the level Eli gave us.

You didn't have to know how Jones would perform to realize it was time to move on from Eli.
The pure hatred for Reese is kind of strange  
Rudy5757 : 10/15/2019 1:29 pm : link
We won 2 SuperBowls with him as the GM and many of his draft picks were key contributors. In the end his last few years were a failure but there were some good quality players drafted. OBJ, EE Linval Joeseph are pretty good players and arguably top 5 at their positions. So people love Coughlin and hate Reese doesn't make sense.

DG seems to be getting us back on track but its too soon to say if he is great or a failure. SB is a HOF talent but will he be healthy and get to the HOF status or will he prove the thought that you dont take a RB that high and be out of the league in 5 years. Was not drafting Darnold a mistake? Is DJ going to be great? Thats his legacy right there.

Year 1 draft looks OK. Some of the guys we expected to take the jump year 2 have not. Hernandez, Hill and Carter are starting but there has not been much improvement from year 1 to year 2. the question is should they be starting and are they better than other players that were available when we picked.

Year 2 draft again looks very promising. DJ has shown ability but now we have to see how he progresses.
Lawrence has started to show why he was picked, Baker had a rough start and has settled down. Connelly looked like a solid starter. Ballentine and Love have yet to show anything this year.

Thats a solid foundation from this draft but so far the product on the field has not improved over years past. the D stepped up in NE and the O stepped back. So far judging DG at this stage could be argued on both sides but its way too early to say whether he is doing a good or a bad job. Year 3 should be the litmus test. his 1st draft will be mature and you can see what you have, the QB will be in place and we can get a better sense of what he can do. So far I like the direction of the team and I like the type of players we have, guys you can root for.



RE: Disagree  
Britt in VA : 10/15/2019 1:32 pm : link
In comment 14629601 ron mexico said:
Quote:
any number of stop gaps could have been brought in to perform near the level Eli gave us.

You didn't have to know how Jones would perform to realize it was time to move on from Eli.


Eli vs. whatever stopgap you sign plus Eli's dead money.
Six of one, half dozen of the other.
RE: RE: Disagree  
ron mexico : 10/15/2019 1:41 pm : link
In comment 14629605 Britt in VA said:
Quote:
In comment 14629601 ron mexico said:


Quote:


any number of stop gaps could have been brought in to perform near the level Eli gave us.

You didn't have to know how Jones would perform to realize it was time to move on from Eli.



Eli vs. whatever stopgap you sign plus Eli's dead money.
Six of one, half dozen of the other.


it isn't the same.

I can provide a half a dozen examples of stop gaps that would have resulted in significant cap savings but I doubt it resonates this time since it hasn't the last 10 times people tried.

There would have been other benefits from moving on from Eli but no point in rehashing the past at this point.
It may have been a prudent approach, but not an illogical one.  
Britt in VA : 10/15/2019 1:48 pm : link
.
The question of retaining Eli had less to do about his cap impact  
jcn56 : 10/15/2019 1:51 pm : link
and more to do with the team's overall strategy.

Which isn't to say that paying Eli didn't hurt them - obviously it did - but were the moves made done with a shorter horizon in mind because they wanted to try to win in the shorter term with Eli still at the helm?

Does Patrick Omameh still get signed? Does Solder get a big blank check? Patrick Stewart? Does Barkley get drafted regardless instead of a QB? Does OBJ get his contract?

I don't know the answers - but there was a definite impact, so a miscalculation could have ranged from some pain to a dramatic shift in their fortunes.
Eli was never going out like that  
allstarjim : 10/15/2019 2:02 pm : link
Come on. We're talking about Eli Manning, the most important player in franchise history. Further, I'm pretty sure that the Giants wanted Jones to watch how Eli prepares and works as a professional.

LOL  
Johnny5 : 10/15/2019 2:03 pm : link
I can understand taking a wait and see with Gettleman. But people giving Reese the amount of credit he seems to be getting here is laughable. He had an eye for skill position. He had some decent picks. But almost every single one of his draft picks past the 2nd round is out of the league. His OL and LB drafting was for the most part atrocious. To be fair, I think Ross was a big part of his problem.

How many hits in these draft classes? What 5 out of 27 picks? Why do people think we are where we are right now?

2013:
1 Justin Pugh OT
2 Johnathan Hankins DT (Hooray, a HIT! and then fails to resign him)
3 Damontre Moore DE
4 Ryan Nassib QB
5 Cooper Taylor S
7 Eric Herman G
7 Michael Cox RB

2014:
1st Odell Beckham Jr. WR (Hooray, a HIT!)
2 Weston Richburg C
3 Jay Bromley DT
4 Andre Williams RB
5 Nat Berhe S
5 Devon Kennard LB (Hooray, a HIT!)
6 Bennett Jackson DB

2015 draft class:
1ST: LT Ereck Flowers
2ND: S Landon Collins (Hooray, a HIT!)
3RD: DE Owa Odighizuwa (out of NFL)
5TH: S Mykkele Thompson (out of NFL)
6TH: WR Geremy Davis
7TH: RT Bobby Hart


2016:
1ST: CB Eli Apple
2ND: WR Sterling Shepard (Hooray, a HIT!)
3RD: S Darian Thompson
4TH: LB B.J. Goodson (OK, I guess)
5TH: RB Paul Perkins
6TH: TE Jerell Adams
RE: LOL  
jcn56 : 10/15/2019 2:13 pm : link
In comment 14629634 Johnny5 said:
Quote:
I can understand taking a wait and see with Gettleman. But people giving Reese the amount of credit he seems to be getting here is laughable. He had an eye for skill position. He had some decent picks. But almost every single one of his draft picks past the 2nd round is out of the league. His OL and LB drafting was for the most part atrocious. To be fair, I think Ross was a big part of his problem.

How many hits in these draft classes? What 5 out of 27 picks? Why do people think we are where we are right now?

2013:
1 Justin Pugh OT
2 Johnathan Hankins DT (Hooray, a HIT! and then fails to resign him)
3 Damontre Moore DE
4 Ryan Nassib QB
5 Cooper Taylor S
7 Eric Herman G
7 Michael Cox RB

2014:
1st Odell Beckham Jr. WR (Hooray, a HIT!)
2 Weston Richburg C
3 Jay Bromley DT
4 Andre Williams RB
5 Nat Berhe S
5 Devon Kennard LB (Hooray, a HIT!)
6 Bennett Jackson DB

2015 draft class:
1ST: LT Ereck Flowers
2ND: S Landon Collins (Hooray, a HIT!)
3RD: DE Owa Odighizuwa (out of NFL)
5TH: S Mykkele Thompson (out of NFL)
6TH: WR Geremy Davis
7TH: RT Bobby Hart


2016:
1ST: CB Eli Apple
2ND: WR Sterling Shepard (Hooray, a HIT!)
3RD: S Darian Thompson
4TH: LB B.J. Goodson (OK, I guess)
5TH: RB Paul Perkins
6TH: TE Jerell Adams


You can do that - and line up some other teams to see how well they fared 5 years later. The average NFL career length is under 4 years.

What matters is that Reese's teams were competitive and won 2 Super Bowls - until whatever the Giants had that was working stopped. When that happened, nobody looked good - not Eli, not TC, not Reese.

Gettleman was brought in to right the ship - and so far, it looks very much like it's moving on the same course. Too soon to tell, but considering the apparatus for scouting players both on the pro personnel and college side remained largely unchanged, I'm not sure why that would be surprising.
RE: The question of retaining Eli had less to do about his cap impact  
ron mexico : 10/15/2019 2:22 pm : link
In comment 14629622 jcn56 said:
Quote:
and more to do with the team's overall strategy.

Which isn't to say that paying Eli didn't hurt them - obviously it did - but were the moves made done with a shorter horizon in mind because they wanted to try to win in the shorter term with Eli still at the helm?

Does Patrick Omameh still get signed? Does Solder get a big blank check? Patrick Stewart? Does Barkley get drafted regardless instead of a QB? Does OBJ get his contract?

I don't know the answers - but there was a definite impact, so a miscalculation could have ranged from some pain to a dramatic shift in their fortunes.


all good questions. We will never know the answers and doesn't really matter any more than to hope that they don't repeat the same mistakes under similar circumstances.
But jcn  
Johnny5 : 10/15/2019 2:24 pm : link
If you listen to Gilbride, he pointed out the OL as his and ultimately Coughlin's downfall on offense. He was specifically putting that on the GM.

Also our defense was pretty awful until 2016. Reese spends big in FA after we bag Coughlin. The hits to the cap for one year of good defense was not a good trade off. One thing I will say, if they would have kept Coughlin one more year and given him that defense? Who thinks we would not have had a better year than under McAdoo with his pop warner offense?
You can do the same for Gettleman's Carolina drafts  
Greg from LI : 10/15/2019 2:25 pm : link
2013:
1 - Lotulelei, decent starter
2 - Short - Pro Bowler
4 - Kugbila - never played in NFL
5 - Klein - journeyman
6 - Barner - special teamer

2014:
1 - Benjamin - out of football
2 - Ealy - bust, out of football
3 - Turner - Pro Bowler
4 - Boston - journeyman
5 - Benwikere - out of football
6 - Gaffney - never played in NFL

2015:
1 - Thompson - decent starter
2 - Funchess - bust
4 - Williams - decent starter
5 - Mayo - backup
5 - Artis-Payne - special teamer

2016:
1 - Butler - bust
2 - Bradberry - decent starter
3 - Worley - decent starter
5 - Sanchez - out of football
7 - Sandland - never made a roster

So yeah, a bit better than Reese's bad drafts, but hardly overflowing with talent.
Any NYG fan worth a damn  
Chris684 : 10/15/2019 2:26 pm : link
Can see that Reese should be appreciated for his overall body of work but also realize it was time for him to go, in hindsight it was probably a year or two too late.

Reese did a lot of good here. The 2007 draft, Kenny Phillips, JPP, Linval Joseph. Oddly enough, it seemed like Reese was overall much better at identifying talent at particular positions via the draft and free agency, while others he flat sucked at.

Among his best were DL, WR and S/CB. Antrel Rolle and Canty were two of the best and biggest additions he made. Manningham, Cruz, Nicks, Smith and Beckham prove he could pick WRs any day of the week.

He had serious blind spots along the OL, Linebackers, TEs and developmental QBs.

I think the worst thing you could say about Reese, is something that is very refreshing with Gettleman and that is the country club free pass that existed for draft picks on a Jerry Reese built roster is now non-existent under Gettleman. DG is much faster to realize his personnel mistakes and pull the plug than Reese ever was. I think that alone did JR in as time went on here.

But I still think have to look at Reese as having an overall very solid body of work here over the course of 10-11 years.
RE: But jcn  
Greg from LI : 10/15/2019 2:26 pm : link
In comment 14629654 Johnny5 said:
Quote:
If you listen to Gilbride, he pointed out the OL as his and ultimately Coughlin's downfall on offense. He was specifically putting that on the GM.


Gilbride covering his ass after the fact is supposed to mean something?
RE: RE: But jcn  
Johnny5 : 10/15/2019 2:28 pm : link
In comment 14629658 Greg from LI said:
Quote:
In comment 14629654 Johnny5 said:


Quote:


If you listen to Gilbride, he pointed out the OL as his and ultimately Coughlin's downfall on offense. He was specifically putting that on the GM.



Gilbride covering his ass after the fact is supposed to mean something?

So do you disagree that the OL was an issue since 2012??
What?  
Greg from LI : 10/15/2019 2:30 pm : link
You need a software update from Newton Crosby, Ph.D apparently. Who said it wasn't? What I snicker about is the fact that people just take Gilbride at face value when he states years after the fact that he was yelling and screaming about the offensive line in 2012.
Thanks for posting the DG drafts Greg  
Johnny5 : 10/15/2019 2:33 pm : link
They highlight the biggest problems, OL and depth players is where DG builds a stronger roster. Aside from OL and LB ineptitude for basically his whole tenure, our depth always sucked.

I'll say it again, I think Reese had a very good eye for skill players. I don't hate the guy... lol.... but we are where we are right now because of some really REALLY poor drafting after 2007.
RE: What?  
Johnny5 : 10/15/2019 2:35 pm : link
In comment 14629664 Greg from LI said:
Quote:
You need a software update from Newton Crosby, Ph.D apparently. Who said it wasn't? What I snicker about is the fact that people just take Gilbride at face value when he states years after the fact that he was yelling and screaming about the offensive line in 2012.

Newton Crosby was good I give you props for that one... lol

He said that from the time he left as I recall, not just years after.
Reese  
PaulN : 10/15/2019 2:52 pm : link
Is the reason we are in this mess. Accorsi is the reason we won 2 Super Bowls, him and Coughlin. Accorsi is very good at drafting college players, but has made questionable moves in free agency, and hiring Shurmur, a horrible head coach. That is why this is taking so long. You can look back 5 years and prove who are good GM's by their drafts, that proves Reese sucked. Accorsi had the team set for years. The only thing that guy could draft are wideouts. In all his drafts he got onf pass rusher, Pierre Paul, who had one great year, not one good offensive lineman, not one, and one very good DT, Joseph. You look back a good GM and you see a hall of fame rusher, and 2 other great DE's. A boatload of good offensive linemen , and a hall of fame, two time super bowl mvp, but keep defending him and making yourself right.
Meant Gettleman on  
PaulN : 10/15/2019 2:58 pm : link
Line 2, good drafting questionable free agent moves, and horrible head coaching decision. Accorsi won us 2 superbowls, no question about that.
RE: Thegratfulehead....there's a lot of truth to what you are saying  
Big_N : 10/15/2019 3:06 pm : link
In comment 14629402 Zeke's Alibi said:
Quote:
These are the types of fans that would bitch at everything unless the Giants become the Patriots, and even then they'd find shit to bitch about. Unreasonable expectations. Like expecting a team with the most dead cap in the NFL to make the playoffs. Now if we do I think it would signal awesome things moving forward, but I don't think the world is falling and the guys all suck if they don't.

2020 they should definitely make the playoffs and if they don't I'd support firing PS. He's shown me enough to question his ability not just game management stuff, but schematically. DG on the other hand, I really think has done a tremendous job turning this ship around with his hands tied to Eli. I think the Solder signing stems from this so I'm not going to kill him for it even though its a bad signing. There's a lot of people here pissed he didn't take Darnold and wail on the positional value argument. These people won't be happy until he's gone or win a SB. Wait until CMC signs his new contract and where that puts RBs on the scheme of things. There's a new type of NFL RB that is highly sought after in the last few years. DG has now drafted two of these uniquely talented RBs.


Why is it unreasonable? It seems like the Giants were either winning Super bowls going to the super bowl or had a winning season since I was a kid in the 80s. Sure there were droughts but not like this. The patriots only had one more super bowl to their credit after the Giants won in 2011. OK so Reese decimated the team and now here comes Reese 2.0 DG to just announce a full blown out rebuild but not really but yea a overhaul rebuild and get rid of everyone like he did in NC. If this team is rebuilding now yet again; what the heck was it doing for the past 7 years? And why rebuild now? He should have spent some money on D and made a run for it with Eli. Otherwise fuck this what 10 years of losing seasons. I have better things to do. Is Saqoun even going to be the same after 3 years of this?
How is Gettleman Reese 2.0?  
Britt in VA : 10/15/2019 3:08 pm : link
They seem to have completely different offensive philosophies.

Basketball on grass vs. Hog Mollies.
Excuse me, team building philosophies.  
Britt in VA : 10/15/2019 3:11 pm : link
.
RE: How is Gettleman Reese 2.0?  
Big_N : 10/15/2019 3:15 pm : link
In comment 14629705 Britt in VA said:
Quote:
They seem to have completely different offensive philosophies.

Basketball on grass vs. Hog Mollies.


I meant in the sense of not retaining talent not offensive philosophy. Different offensive philosophies??? What exactly is DG philosophy anyway? This guy seem to be doing stuff by the seat of his pants.
What talent was there to retain?  
Britt in VA : 10/15/2019 3:21 pm : link
Did you want to keep Landon Collins at 85 million? How about Vernon? How about OBJ and his 90 million contract and constant sh-tshow?

What are OBJ, Collins, Vernon, and Pierre Paul doing for their new teams?

He had to blow the roster up, because Reese had run it completely into the ground. We only have like 4-5 guys left that were drafted within the past ten years by Reese. Who was the last Reese guy to get a second contract? Sheppard? That's it.
Even Reese's recent and rare successes have caveats  
Coach Red Beaulieu : 10/15/2019 3:44 pm : link
OBJ over Donald/Martin? SS over Thomas? In both instances we can thank Mcadoo's wco ffs
You can..  
FatMan in Charlotte : 10/15/2019 3:45 pm : link
do this same exercise, but Reese from 2010-2017 was really bad:

Quote:
You can do that - and line up some other teams to see how well they fared 5 years later. The average NFL career length is under 4 years.


The Giants have the least number of draftees with their team OR the least number of players still playing of any team since 2010. I'll see if i can find the article, but having 3 drafts of players no longer playing in such a short time frame was historically bad.
why are so many people giving reese credit for linval joseph?  
japanhead : 10/15/2019 4:12 pm : link
he drafted him, sure, but wasn't wise enough to re-sign him, and none of the DTs he drafted since were near as good, and even those that were servicable (hankins) weren't re-signed, and he would just draft new DTs, while neglecting other positions, until he finally overpaid for snacks in FA.

his approach to the DT position while GM here was mind-bogglingly awful to me. it's hilarious that it's being held up as evidence of what a shrewd GM he was.

i don't think he was as awful here as some do (until the flowers and apple drafts), and there's no doubt he was snakebit with the injuries to smith, nicks, manningham, boss, cruz, etc., but he handling of the DT position while here was inept.
RE: why are so many people giving reese credit for linval joseph?  
jcn56 : 10/15/2019 4:27 pm : link
In comment 14629781 japanhead said:
Quote:
he drafted him, sure, but wasn't wise enough to re-sign him, and none of the DTs he drafted since were near as good, and even those that were servicable (hankins) weren't re-signed, and he would just draft new DTs, while neglecting other positions, until he finally overpaid for snacks in FA.

his approach to the DT position while GM here was mind-bogglingly awful to me. it's hilarious that it's being held up as evidence of what a shrewd GM he was.

i don't think he was as awful here as some do (until the flowers and apple drafts), and there's no doubt he was snakebit with the injuries to smith, nicks, manningham, boss, cruz, etc., but he handling of the DT position while here was inept.


How so? He managed to restock the position with drafted players who were more cost effective. If anything that's one position where JR was tremendously effective, having drafted the likes of Coefield, Joseph, Hankins, Tomlinson.

The problem wasn't letting Joseph walk (who BTW credited Minnesota's coaching and his use in the scheme there for his improved performance). The problem was saving money by letting an established player walk for a capable reserve still on a rookie contract and then squandering the money spent in FA. Money spent on guys like Jon Beason and Geoff Schwartz. Had one good player been signed instead of those two, then it would be a much better value proposition.
RE: What talent was there to retain?  
Big_N : 10/15/2019 4:31 pm : link
In comment 14629716 Britt in VA said:
Quote:
Did you want to keep Landon Collins at 85 million? How about Vernon? How about OBJ and his 90 million contract and constant sh-tshow?

What are OBJ, Collins, Vernon, and Pierre Paul doing for their new teams?

He had to blow the roster up, because Reese had run it completely into the ground. We only have like 4-5 guys left that were drafted within the past ten years by Reese. Who was the last Reese guy to get a second contract? Sheppard? That's it.


Pretty much yeah. I don't know about 85 mil., but come on. receivers are just running wild over the middle every game.

Beckham yes. You trade Odell like WTF????


Collins..  
FatMan in Charlotte : 10/15/2019 4:33 pm : link
wasn't part of defenses letting WR's run wild??

C'mon man
I would have always wanted to keep L Collins  
Jimmy Googs : 10/15/2019 4:39 pm : link
but nowhere even close to the amount the Redskins paid.

Nowhere close...
RE: You can..  
ColHowPepper : 10/15/2019 4:46 pm : link
In comment 14629732 FatMan in Charlotte said:
Quote:
do this same exercise, but Reese from 2010-2017 was really bad:

Quote:

You can do that - and line up some other teams to see how well they fared 5 years later. The average NFL career length is under 4 years.

The Giants have the least number of draftees with their team OR the least number of players still playing of any team since 2010. I'll see if i can find the article, but having 3 drafts of players no longer playing in such a short time frame was historically bad.
Ha, ha. I think it was Ranaan that eventually put that analysis in print, pretty close to what you aver. This was some time after Ranaan challenged Reese with exactly that charge at the infamous end-of-season TC farewell presser 2015. Reese, in his typically arrogant style, said, yeah? You've got to prove that to me.
Yes, we can agree that DG's orientation toward re-building  
ColHowPepper : 10/15/2019 4:54 pm : link
and roster management in 2018 was a mistake (Solder, Omameh, Tree, Jonathan Stewart (thank you)), but if it wasn't clear then that Mara was on board, if he did not actually promote that strategic direction for 2018, it had to have become clear by July 2019. There was understandable organizational inertia and reluctance in coming to grips with just how much Eli had declined.

Digging out from six years of terrible drafting and roster construction doesn't get reversed in 1 season +. DG has made his mistakes, some significant ones tied to the outlook for 2018, but to damn him and condemn his to Reese-like ineptitude after 17 months, with many promising rookies and 2nd year players in the fold, is quite short-term thinking, imo.
RE: why are so many people giving reese credit for linval joseph?  
Coach Red Beaulieu : 10/15/2019 5:05 pm : link
In comment 14629781 japanhead said:
Quote:
he drafted him, sure, but wasn't wise enough to re-sign him, and none of the DTs he drafted since were near as good, and even those that were servicable (hankins) weren't re-signed, and he would just draft new DTs, while neglecting other positions, until he finally overpaid for snacks in FA.

his approach to the DT position while GM here was mind-bogglingly awful to me. it's hilarious that it's being held up as evidence of what a shrewd GM he was.

i don't think he was as awful here as some do (until the flowers and apple drafts), and there's no doubt he was snakebit with the injuries to smith, nicks, manningham, boss, cruz, etc., but he handling of the DT position while here was inept.

It was hubris to let Linval go. Reese thought he drafted so much talent he couldn't possibly waste money on a good DT, positional value and all, and had to save cap space for a one handed DE.
RE: Yes, we can agree that DG's orientation toward re-building  
Big_N : 10/15/2019 5:05 pm : link
In comment 14629919 ColHowPepper said:
Quote:
and roster management in 2018 was a mistake (Solder, Omameh, Tree, Jonathan Stewart (thank you)), but if it wasn't clear then that Mara was on board, if he did not actually promote that strategic direction for 2018, it had to have become clear by July 2019. There was understandable organizational inertia and reluctance in coming to grips with just how much Eli had declined.

Digging out from six years of terrible drafting and roster construction doesn't get reversed in 1 season +. DG has made his mistakes, some significant ones tied to the outlook for 2018, but to damn him and condemn his to Reese-like ineptitude after 17 months, with many promising rookies and 2nd year players in the fold, is quite short-term thinking, imo.


This guy has not earned the rep to pull the shit that he did. Mr. Jones in Dallas isn't picking up the phone to call this dude and beg him out of retirement. His record in NC is dubious at best.

If this works and I would be surprised if it does, it could just be pure dumb luck. If you want to explain to me what this is exactly I am all ears.

I do not understand the direction of this team. It is 1/2 rebuilding 1/2 trying to put together a winning season.

Eli is still not that bad of a qb. His contemporaries are still playing in the 2004 draft class. The difference is the don't have a bunch o9f college people on D. You have EE, you have odell, you have barkley, yes you have an older Eli. I see no reason why a playoff run is out of the question. If all else fails so what ? you send Eli home and draft a qb or look to free agency. But this is just a never ending nightmare.
RE: What?  
santacruzom : 10/15/2019 5:08 pm : link
In comment 14629664 Greg from LI said:
Quote:
You need a software update from Newton Crosby, Ph.D apparently.


Okay, how has no one thought to use that line on Johnny 5 until now?
I think some of Reese's OL picks  
santacruzom : 10/15/2019 5:12 pm : link
had some really decent potential but never panned out. Flowers was arguably a reach (as was Pugh), but Richburg and Beatty were both picked roughly where their projected value placed them, were considered good picks at the time, and were considered good players at some point during their brief tenure on the team. Richburg may in fact be a good player now, on the 9ers.

It's hard in some ways to tell how poor Reese's picks were because it's quite possible that the Giants just haven't been very good at developing talent across their roster. It's also quite possible that they still aren't, and that Gettleman's tenure here won't be much more highly-regarded than Reese's as a result.
Also  
santacruzom : 10/15/2019 5:15 pm : link
Pugh looked promising skill-wise as well, but just couldn't stay healthy.

Such was the fate of a lot of Reese's picks, come to think of it.
Jesus..  
FatMan in Charlotte : 10/15/2019 5:18 pm : link
Quote:
This guy has not earned the rep to pull the shit that he did. Mr. Jones in Dallas isn't picking up the phone to call this dude and beg him out of retirement. His record in NC is dubious at best.


what the fuck are you babbling about?
RE: RE: why are so many people giving reese credit for linval joseph?  
japanhead : 10/15/2019 5:36 pm : link
In comment 14629821 jcn56 said:
Quote:
In comment 14629781 japanhead said:


Quote:


he drafted him, sure, but wasn't wise enough to re-sign him, and none of the DTs he drafted since were near as good, and even those that were servicable (hankins) weren't re-signed, and he would just draft new DTs, while neglecting other positions, until he finally overpaid for snacks in FA.

his approach to the DT position while GM here was mind-bogglingly awful to me. it's hilarious that it's being held up as evidence of what a shrewd GM he was.

i don't think he was as awful here as some do (until the flowers and apple drafts), and there's no doubt he was snakebit with the injuries to smith, nicks, manningham, boss, cruz, etc., but he handling of the DT position while here was inept.



How so? He managed to restock the position with drafted players who were more cost effective. If anything that's one position where JR was tremendously effective, having drafted the likes of Coefield, Joseph, Hankins, Tomlinson.

The problem wasn't letting Joseph walk (who BTW credited Minnesota's coaching and his use in the scheme there for his improved performance). The problem was saving money by letting an established player walk for a capable reserve still on a rookie contract and then squandering the money spent in FA. Money spent on guys like Jon Beason and Geoff Schwartz. Had one good player been signed instead of those two, then it would be a much better value proposition.


yea dude.. after all, he had marvin austin and jonathan hankins on the roster, right? why retain players like joseph? or cofield before him? LMAO. the position was so strong with those "capable reserves" that he went out and signed snacks in FA to shore up the position.

not sure how you can honestly defend reese's handling of the DT position here.
Linval Joseph wasnt anything special here  
Ten Ton Hammer : 10/15/2019 5:41 pm : link
You're acting like he was as good here as he was in Minnesota and he wasnt. And even he says so.
RE: Linval Joseph wasnt anything special here  
japanhead : 10/15/2019 5:43 pm : link
In comment 14629982 Ten Ton Hammer said:
Quote:
You're acting like he was as good here as he was in Minnesota and he wasnt. And even he says so.


it was clear to a lot of people that linval was a player on the rise who had gotten better every year. i was just as pissed about letting cofield go. those were the two best DTs that reese drafted- everything else he did at the position following these two was far worse.
.  
Go Terps : 10/15/2019 5:55 pm : link
The Giants have made some huge errors since Gettleman took over. Because of their archaic organizational structure, it is difficult to ascertain which mistakes are specifically his and to what extent they are. I think we can identify three definitive mistakes and a couple questions about the Giants during Gettleman's tenure here.

Mistake #1: hiring Pat Shurmur as head coach

Shurmur's performance as Giant head coach borders on indefensible. It has been characterized by poor game management, poor usage of Barkley, and excuse making.

Mistake #2: signing Beckham to a 5 year, $95M ($65 guaranteed) contract

Besides being an asshole (anyone arguing that anymore?), Beckham was a descending player when he was signed to that contract. When he signed that deal he was coming off a season during which he had played only 4 games after sustaining two lower leg injuries. We have been told that Gettleman was ready to move him following 2017 (there were trade rumors), but the newly-hired Shurmur changed his mind. So to summarize the thought process:

Winter/Spring 2018: "I think I might be willing to trade Beckham; he's coming off injury and he's generally an asshole."
Summer 2018: "I am going to pay Beckham $65M guaranteed because Pat Shurmur says he can work with him."
Spring 2019: "I'm trading Beckham."

That is shitty, shitty resource management.

Mistake #3: Bringing Eli Manning back in 2019.

Speaking of shitty resource management, the Giants continued their recent history of half measures by both retaining Eli instead of saving $17M in cap space AND using the 6th pick overall to create a QB controversy. The results were predictable: the Giants paid $17M in potential FA help and a summer's worth of valuable starter's reps to score 31 points in two losses AND have Eli's Giant career end in embarrassment on the bench.

For a team that's been characterized by stupid decisions in the past few years, the way they handled the end of Eli's career was a whole new level of naivete.

Question #1: Was Barkley the right pick?

Thus far, the answer ranges from "inconclusive" to "no". While Barkley is a great kid and a wonderful player, the offense hasn't been any better and he's already missed games to injury - something that comes with the territory of being a running back. Further, Shurmur has utterly failed to utilize him properly.

Question #2: Why is game management so poor and why is nothing done about it?

I've posted a couple times about how NBC mentioned the fact that the Indianapolis Colts have two data analysts whose sole job is to understand game management decisions and serve as a real time resource for head coach Frank Reich. In an article in the Athletic Reich is quoted saying he will ask them real time situational questions like "If this pass is completed do we call a timeout?"

I'll ask the question again that I have asked on other threads and not seen answered: Who is the Giants' equivalent to these two guys that the Colts use? What processes are the Giants using to help them make critical game management situations? Can anyone answer this?

--------------------------------------------------------------------------

I'd say Gettleman has done well with drafting college players since he's been here, but that's the only area he stands out as having done a good job. That's good enough for the Director of College Scouting, but not for the GM.

Again, it's tough to say to what extent these errors are Gettleman's as the Giants seem to be run by a 6+ man committee instead of an actual top down command structure. But even if he isn't at fault for all of the Giants' problems, I'm not sure he's actually solving them either.
I may be able to argue some nuances there  
ron mexico : 10/15/2019 6:18 pm : link
But that is pretty spot on in my opinion.

The big changes in direction says to me that there are too many cooks in the kitchen.
I'm not ready...  
bw in dc : 10/15/2019 6:46 pm : link
to declare Shurmur a failure move, especially if Jints Central isn't allocating the right resources to help him. Which ties directly to your #2 question.

Furthermore, I can assure you Shurmur isn't getting a lot of say in Gettleman's grocery shopping. So a reasonable case can be made Shurmur hasn't been dealt the best hand. As I've mentioned before, I want to see Shurmur will a full - or almost full - arsenal of players. If the struggles continue, then let's pull the rip cord...

Let's give Shurmur some credit getting DJ ready to play. DJ looks comfortable running the system and Shurmur is obviously using more chapters in his playbook...
Shurmur will get through 2020 at least  
ron mexico : 10/15/2019 6:59 pm : link
No way they switch after 2 years again

I hope he works out.
RE: Eli was never going out like that  
joeinpa : 10/15/2019 7:18 pm : link
In comment 14629632 allstarjim said:
Quote:
Come on. We're talking about Eli Manning, the most important player in franchise history. Further, I'm pretty sure that the Giants wanted Jones to watch how Eli prepares and works as a professional.


Most important player in history?

Certainly he was one of the most important, but I can think of more than a few who were just as important or maybe more so
RE: .  
Big_N : 10/15/2019 11:16 pm : link
In comment 14630013 Go Terps said:
Quote:
The Giants have made some huge errors since Gettleman took over. Because of their archaic organizational structure, it is difficult to ascertain which mistakes are specifically his and to what extent they are. I think we can identify three definitive mistakes and a couple questions about the Giants during Gettleman's tenure here.

Mistake #1: hiring Pat Shurmur as head coach

Shurmur's performance as Giant head coach borders on indefensible. It has been characterized by poor game management, poor usage of Barkley, and excuse making.

Mistake #2: signing Beckham to a 5 year, $95M ($65 guaranteed) contract

Besides being an asshole (anyone arguing that anymore?), Beckham was a descending player when he was signed to that contract. When he signed that deal he was coming off a season during which he had played only 4 games after sustaining two lower leg injuries. We have been told that Gettleman was ready to move him following 2017 (there were trade rumors), but the newly-hired Shurmur changed his mind. So to summarize the thought process:

Winter/Spring 2018: "I think I might be willing to trade Beckham; he's coming off injury and he's generally an asshole."
Summer 2018: "I am going to pay Beckham $65M guaranteed because Pat Shurmur says he can work with him."
Spring 2019: "I'm trading Beckham."

That is shitty, shitty resource management.

Mistake #3: Bringing Eli Manning back in 2019.

Speaking of shitty resource management, the Giants continued their recent history of half measures by both retaining Eli instead of saving $17M in cap space AND using the 6th pick overall to create a QB controversy. The results were predictable: the Giants paid $17M in potential FA help and a summer's worth of valuable starter's reps to score 31 points in two losses AND have Eli's Giant career end in embarrassment on the bench.

For a team that's been characterized by stupid decisions in the past few years, the way they handled the end of Eli's career was a whole new level of naivete.

Question #1: Was Barkley the right pick?

Thus far, the answer ranges from "inconclusive" to "no". While Barkley is a great kid and a wonderful player, the offense hasn't been any better and he's already missed games to injury - something that comes with the territory of being a running back. Further, Shurmur has utterly failed to utilize him properly.

Question #2: Why is game management so poor and why is nothing done about it?

I've posted a couple times about how NBC mentioned the fact that the Indianapolis Colts have two data analysts whose sole job is to understand game management decisions and serve as a real time resource for head coach Frank Reich. In an article in the Athletic Reich is quoted saying he will ask them real time situational questions like "If this pass is completed do we call a timeout?"

I'll ask the question again that I have asked on other threads and not seen answered: Who is the Giants' equivalent to these two guys that the Colts use? What processes are the Giants using to help them make critical game management situations? Can anyone answer this?

--------------------------------------------------------------------------

I'd say Gettleman has done well with drafting college players since he's been here, but that's the only area he stands out as having done a good job. That's good enough for the Director of College Scouting, but not for the GM.

Again, it's tough to say to what extent these errors are Gettleman's as the Giants seem to be run by a 6+ man committee instead of an actual top down command structure. But even if he isn't at fault for all of the Giants' problems, I'm not sure he's actually solving them either.


All of these things really boil down to 1 thing....

Were you going to keep Eli around for a couple of years and commit to him and making a final run at the playoffs with Eli as the starting QB? Or were you going to rebuild.

That is really the main question DG had to answer at least to himself.

He could not make the decision on that. That is why the wishy-washy moves the seem to lend themselves to on the one hand this and on the other hand that decision making.

After answering this one question the next question is who is your coach? If you have a 38 yr old qb it is going to be a DC or someone who can coach an offense based off the run.

All of the other things can be forgiven. Sure you drafted too high with Saquon. Sure you paid too much for Beckham. You can still work with that. You still have wiggle room for putting together a winning team. You still have free agents and can draft for D pass rushers and better players in your secondary.

Without being able to answer these 2 fundamental questions - who is your qb and who the the right coach for the team you want to build around him...everything else is a distant second.
Go Terps  
Marty866b : 10/15/2019 11:46 pm : link
Great post and spot on.
RE: LOL  
huygens20 : 10/16/2019 12:50 am : link
In comment 14629634 Johnny5 said:
Quote:
I can understand taking a wait and see with Gettleman. But people giving Reese the amount of credit he seems to be getting here is laughable. He had an eye for skill position. He had some decent picks. But almost every single one of his draft picks past the 2nd round is out of the league. His OL and LB drafting was for the most part atrocious. To be fair, I think Ross was a big part of his problem.

How many hits in these draft classes? What 5 out of 27 picks? Why do people think we are where we are right now?

2013:
1 Justin Pugh OT
2 Johnathan Hankins DT (Hooray, a HIT! and then fails to resign him)
3 Damontre Moore DE
4 Ryan Nassib QB
5 Cooper Taylor S
7 Eric Herman G
7 Michael Cox RB

2014:
1st Odell Beckham Jr. WR (Hooray, a HIT!)
2 Weston Richburg C
3 Jay Bromley DT
4 Andre Williams RB
5 Nat Berhe S
5 Devon Kennard LB (Hooray, a HIT!)
6 Bennett Jackson DB

2015 draft class:
1ST: LT Ereck Flowers
2ND: S Landon Collins (Hooray, a HIT!)
3RD: DE Owa Odighizuwa (out of NFL)
5TH: S Mykkele Thompson (out of NFL)
6TH: WR Geremy Davis
7TH: RT Bobby Hart


2016:
1ST: CB Eli Apple
2ND: WR Sterling Shepard (Hooray, a HIT!)
3RD: S Darian Thompson
4TH: LB B.J. Goodson (OK, I guess)
5TH: RB Paul Perkins
6TH: TE Jerell Adams



Some context:

Past the 3rd round, draft picks have like a 5% or less chance of becoming a starter .

So we should be fair and to break down how many games started by each drafted player per round


Either way, Reese drafted some top players (Beckham, jpp, Collins) but he got fired because he and coughlin couldn’t develop 2nd and 3rd round picks into average players.

A guy like Eli apple is a great example of this. Massively over drafted, and turned out to be an average player.
Great Job laying it out Terps!  
.McL. : 10/16/2019 2:00 am : link
To bw, normally I agree that we should give people time to bring their vision to fruition. And that time should usually be 3 years. Continually churning through HCs keeps a team at the bottom.


What do you say to the fact that so many players at so many positions seem confused about what their assignments are. The Dallas game was a complete embarrassment in this regard. We see the OL showing frustration with each other over missed assignments and miscommunication. THe offense has a script for the first 10 or so plays, but after that, there doesn't seem to be a plan. Barkley is misused, Eli is running naked bootlegs at the goal line, and god knows their have been other calls that don't make sense, and don't make sense in light of the way the defense has started to play the Gaints. Same on defense, there is no pressure, do we see more stunts and or blitzes to bring that pressure, are we trying anything different. I don't see it. The game planning seems incomplete to say the least.

All these issues rest solely with the coaching staff. How much more do we need to see before we can decide if this coaching staff deserves more years?
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