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NFL, Refereeing and Gambling

DeepBlueJint : 10/15/2019 3:52 pm
To be clear I am not accusing. I am merely concern that there is a reasonable spectre out there. Way too many calls in the 2nd half of games that go to New York. Even Mike Perera on the NFL Radio Network today is frustrated and at a loss due to the absurd calls. So I have these questions:

How much revenue does the NFL get from gambling whether it is spreads, over/under or outright win-lose, or related gambling promotions?

Does the NFL get royalties/fees from the fantasy leagues, betting parlors/ casinos/ state agencies that provide gambling on games? If so, how much?

Why does the NFL with the network channels go out of it way to ignore the loss in attendance at the stadiums? There has to be a loss of revenue, if not for seats/psls, then at least for parking, refreshments, apparel, etc.

For me personally, I look at the obvious refusal to call the penalty on New England when the DB interfered with Golden Tate. If the Giants had driven and scored late the spread would have been covered by the Giants. I am also concerned with the Shepard no calls for interference (I believe it was the Minnesota game.)

The Lions game with the Packers was even worse. Never mind the obvious PI issues. What few people realize is that the extra men (13) on the field by the Packers was inappropriately ignored allowing Le Fleur to call a timeout late in the game; which he shouldn't have been allowed, given the Lion's offense was already on the line of scrimmage.It should have been a 5 yard penalty. Instead it was a sack and the Lions had to punt.

What was the spread, over/under in that game?

OK, fate is the hunter. The Lions failed on a number of drives to get TDs and had to settle for field goals. Still, this is happening all over the league. I have been watching the NFL since the early 60s and I cannot figure this out. I do recall my father-in-law saying don't worry about fixing the game with the players; worry about the officiating.

FWIW.
One of the tradeoffs..  
FatMan in Charlotte : 10/15/2019 3:55 pm : link
the NFL has made with officiating is that almost all of the referees are successful off the field and don't really "need" the income. Most are lawyers or business owners. Bring on full-time younger guys and you then have the specter of gambling looming more ominously

Unless the Mafia can give Walt Coleman the gift of sight, he's just a shitty ref more than anything.
never bet on  
madgiantscow009 : 10/15/2019 4:08 pm : link
the referee to make the correct call.
NFL officiating has always been poor.  
Red Dog : 10/15/2019 4:13 pm : link
Today it is beyond terrible.

I've been watching since 1955 and I believe that officiating is the worst it has ever been. It's so bad that I can't hardly turn on an NFL game without seeing an egregiously bad call.

The Packers were absolutely handed the Monday night game by the zebras. Detroit won it fair and square, but the refs GAVE it to Green Bay.

This shit has to stop.
Replays were suppose to help. Now every call requires a referee  
Blue21 : 10/15/2019 4:42 pm : link
huddle. No one can decipher the rules any more. PI?Who knows what it is? Roughing the passer? Who knows what that is. Holding? On and on it goes.
RE: NFL officiating has always been poor.  
Josiah31 : 10/15/2019 4:47 pm : link
In comment 14629785 Red Dog said:
Quote:
Today it is beyond terrible.

I've been watching since 1955 and I believe that officiating is the worst it has ever been. It's so bad that I can't hardly turn on an NFL game without seeing an egregiously bad call.

The Packers were absolutely handed the Monday night game by the zebras. Detroit won it fair and square, but the refs GAVE it to Green Bay.

This shit has to stop.


I didn’t catch this one. What happened that cost Detroit the game?
Betting is the only thing that is going to save the game ironically  
Zeke's Alibi : 10/15/2019 4:58 pm : link
Too much money is getting lost with shitty calls on the field and if people think the refs are lighting their money on fire they'll stop.
RE: Betting is the only thing that is going to save the game ironically  
Reale01 : 10/15/2019 5:31 pm : link
In comment 14629926 Zeke's Alibi said:
Quote:
Too much money is getting lost with shitty calls on the field and if people think the refs are lighting their money on fire they'll stop.


There is essentially a winner for every loser. There are some that LOVED those calls.
RE: RE: Betting is the only thing that is going to save the game ironically  
Zeke's Alibi : 10/15/2019 7:18 pm : link
In comment 14629975 Reale01 said:
Quote:
In comment 14629926 Zeke's Alibi said:


Quote:


Too much money is getting lost with shitty calls on the field and if people think the refs are lighting their money on fire they'll stop.



There is essentially a winner for every loser. There are some that LOVED those calls.


Yes, but people don't think about that. They stew over the bad losses.
Now  
MookGiants : 10/15/2019 7:34 pm : link
that’s an at bat that illmatic should be bitching about.
Bad Calls...  
Jim in Tampa : 10/15/2019 8:35 pm : link
Do not equate to fixed games. Nor do conspiracy theories suggested by your father-in-law.

The NFL is a multi-billion $ enterprise. They are not going to risk the integrity of the league and the popularity of their sport by "fixing" games.

I have no idea how the officials are vetted, but I can imagine they are under the microscope at all times, both pre and post hire. The NFL no doubt takes every possible precaution to ensure that the officials do no succumb to any outside pressure to affect the outcomes of games for personal gain.

For years I have heard "fans" say things like, "If you think the games aren't fixed you're naive."

My response has always been... "If you think the games are fixed then why do you watch?"
Yeah this is a dumb conspiracy theory, its way too hard for an NFL  
Zeke's Alibi : 10/15/2019 8:44 pm : link
ref to fix a game, too much of a microscope and constant vetting. Shit would show up on tape.
The championship games last year were the epitome of absurd  
Leg of Theismann : 10/15/2019 11:37 pm : link
No need to rehash the Saints debacle as that one has been rehashed ad nauseam.

But the roughing the passer call on the chiefs and then also the random decision to call “lined up in the neutral zone later in the drive were just such massive strokes of good fortune for the Pats that I just couldn’t wrap my head around it.

I have no idea who’s “in on it” but all it takes is a bad seed here or there and who knows whether it’s the NFL doing it or some other entity... it doesn’t have to be a massive conspiracy involving all the refs etc., all I know is sometimes these things are very fishy to me. Who knows if everything is “above board” we really can’t know for sure one way or the other.

Also re: the idea that refs are already “well off” outside of reffing games. To me that’s a relative term and you never know which guys feel compelled to make MORE money over and above whatever they’re making as a lawyer or accountant or whatever. Lawyers and accountants make good living but they get caught up in frauds and scams of all kinds so I don’t really get that argument. Who knows maybe they go into refereeing BECAUSE they have an inside track on how to get a big under the table pay day out of it. Why are we all so readily convinced these guys just devote so much of their time every season just “for the love of refereeing” ? That sounds kind of silly to me tbh.

But again I have no idea what’s going on and no proof of anything I’m just sometimes baffled by these things. The penalties at the end of the cowboys jets game were absolutely insane.
A solution :  
Leg of Theismann : 10/15/2019 11:43 pm : link
I don’t understand what the issue would be with getting professional full time refs and pay them very well. Maybe even $150k per year (with higher pay for head umpires and hefty bonuses going to crews that finish the year with the least number of errors as determined by the league). Pay them well and reward them for being good refs, fine them for being shitty refs. That seems like a pretty good way of encouraging good reffing and mitigating the possibilities of refs being paid to make shitty one-sided calls.
Total cost of  
Leg of Theismann : 10/15/2019 11:46 pm : link
Ref salaries under my plan would be like $20MM , which is less than $1M per team.

Basically 1 vet minimum player salary per team, 32 teams contribute, spread out across all the officials including bonuses and pay raises for higher grades refs.

That’s my plan and I’m sticking to it.
Yawn  
HomerJones45 : 10/16/2019 12:43 am : link
here we go again with bitching about officiating.

The rules are more complicated than they were with the concerns about player safety, the increase in passing and with all the cameras and the infinite replays, the referees have everyone looking over their shoulders every play. They don't make any more mistakes than they ever did considering the rules they are expected to enforce; fans, who are hardly paragons of disinterested observation, are seeing more and up close.

You want a better flow to the game? Simplify the rules, ban penalty replays, including the stupid challenge flags, and reduce the number of cameras at the games.
I think its incompetence  
steve in ky : 10/16/2019 1:59 am : link
rather than games being fixed that is motivated be gambling.

The league has compounded the problem throughout the years by their constant rule changes and placing the emphasis on certain rules in any given season seemingly mandating different interpretations be the officials given whatever problem they deem to be more important for the moment in any given season and seemingly want to use the officiating to massage it from existence. Of course this never works and only proves more and more that those decisions are often largely driven by motives other than the betterment of the game. But beyond all that, one of the biggest reasons is simply that the league has not consistently held officials responsible enough for their poor performances.
The over under for the packer game was 48  
mattlawson : 10/16/2019 7:12 am : link
I believe. I had the packers and the over. Almost made it
RE: A solution :  
Mendenhall64 : 10/16/2019 7:56 am : link
In comment 14630446 Leg of Theismann said:
Quote:
I don’t understand what the issue would be with getting professional full time refs and pay them very well. Maybe even $150k per year (with higher pay for head umpires and hefty bonuses going to crews that finish the year with the least number of errors as determined by the league). Pay them well and reward them for being good refs, fine them for being shitty refs. That seems like a pretty good way of encouraging good reffing and mitigating the possibilities of refs being paid to make shitty one-sided calls.


Why the $50K pay cut?
RE: Bad Calls...  
DeepBlueJint : 10/16/2019 7:58 am : link
In comment 14630340 Jim in Tampa said:
Quote:
Do not equate to fixed games. Nor do conspiracy theories suggested by your father-in-law.

The NFL is a multi-billion $ enterprise. They are not going to risk the integrity of the league and the popularity of their sport by "fixing" games.

I have no idea how the officials are vetted, but I can imagine they are under the microscope at all times, both pre and post hire. The NFL no doubt takes every possible precaution to ensure that the officials do no succumb to any outside pressure to affect the outcomes of games for personal gain.

For years I have heard "fans" say things like, "If you think the games aren't fixed you're naive."

My response has always been... "If you think the games are fixed then why do you watch?"


My concerns are related to the questions I pose. Do you know how much money the NFL makes on gambling sources?
They make a lot and its exactly why its ridiculous to think  
Zeke's Alibi : 10/16/2019 8:10 am : link
the refs are being paid off. There is just way too much money involved and the amount of money it would take to pay off refs would be extremely considerable and than it would open eyes of the casinos accepting these massive bets. Basketball and soccer had an issue because its very easy for a ref to fix games in those respective sports. If the Lions game was fixed what did it accomplish? The Lions still covered. Fixing a football game would need the quarterback or possibly the running back, but these guys all make way too much money.
Pay them well, recruit younger, eager talented  
Big Blue '56 : 10/16/2019 8:17 am : link
refs from college and elsewhere, lessen the rules burden and voila!
The Cowboys Jets  
NikkiMac : 10/16/2019 9:24 am : link
Game put the exclamation mark on it for me , to me that was blatant interfering in the outcome of a game for me in all my years I’ve never seen anything like it ..... but I’m convinced the officials tried to give that game to the cowboys
I don't think its about gambling  
I Love Clams Casino : 10/16/2019 11:24 am : link
I think it's about what will get the higher ratings.

At any rate, it's apparent to me that the playing field is not even. Unfortunately, this is slowly ending my interest knowing that (for whatever reason) the fix is in. There's no glory for the teams that win and no recourse for the teams that lose....SMH
RE: The Cowboys Jets  
Jim in Tampa : 10/16/2019 11:26 am : link
In comment 14630580 NikkiMac said:
Quote:
Game put the exclamation mark on it for me , to me that was blatant interfering in the outcome of a game for me in all my years I’ve never seen anything like it ..... but I’m convinced the officials tried to give that game to the cowboys

1:40 left in the 4th Q- Cowboys down by 8 but they had a first down at the Jets’ 12 yrd line. The next play which would have resulted in a 6 yrd gain was called back by the refs… HOLDING DALLAS.

Very next play…1:34 left in the game, Cowboys with the ball at the Jets 22… another 6 yrd gain called back by the refs… ILLEGAL BLOCK IN THE BACK-DALLAS.

Cowboys end up scoring a TD with 47 seconds left, but the need the 2 pt. conversion to tie the game. Dak throws to Whitten in the end zone, Nance declares, “There was contact with the (Jets) CB, but it’s incomplete.”

Now I understand that there were a couple of calls on that final drive that went AGAINST the Jets, but if the officials were really trying to “give the game to the Cowboys” as you’ve suggested…

Why did they call two crucial penalties AGAINST DALLAS on that last drive while ignoring what “could” have been called PI on the 2 pt. conversion?

And if the officials were trying to give the game to the ‘Boys, why wouldn’t they have called a few more holding penalties against the Jets at key points earlier in the game to give Dallas a better chance to win?

Your conspiracy theory just doesn’t come close to adding up.
Jim....people see what they want to see  
Zeke's Alibi : 10/16/2019 11:28 am : link
.
Hmmmmmm......  
BlueHurricane : 10/16/2019 2:11 pm : link
You knew it was bound to be talked about at some point
Rumors Flying Massive Wagers Keep Being Placed On Games Officiated By Crew From Packers-Lions Games Last Night - ( New Window )
RE: They make a lot and its exactly why its ridiculous to think  
Leg of Theismann : 10/16/2019 6:17 pm : link
In comment 14630514 Zeke's Alibi said:
Quote:
the refs are being paid off. There is just way too much money involved and the amount of money it would take to pay off refs would be extremely considerable and than it would open eyes of the casinos accepting these massive bets. Basketball and soccer had an issue because its very easy for a ref to fix games in those respective sports. If the Lions game was fixed what did it accomplish? The Lions still covered. Fixing a football game would need the quarterback or possibly the running back, but these guys all make way too much money.


Why do you seem to think that just because there isn't a massive conspiracy with 100% participation by the players, coaches, and refs to fix games, then therefore there is no possibility of conspiracy at all? All it takes is a cost-benefit analysis of having a few refs ("bad eggs") here and there throughout the league who are paid-off to set the odds slightly more in favor of one outcome or another. No one's saying that every single game is fixed and every game where there is a ref "paid off" is definitely 100% resulting a particular pre-set outcome, it's simply saying that the odds are tipped slightly one way or another, which overall on a macro scale can have material impact.

It's kind of like the way the Patriots find every single little advantage they possibly can to set the odds better for themselves (including, as we have seen, breaking the rules in very minor ways that all add up to a pretty decent advantage). It doesn't necessarily mean they win the Super Bowl every single year and it's pre-determined that they will, but over the course of 20 years they certainly have had better outcomes (9 super bowl appearances, 6 wins, etc.) than any other team over that time period.

I'm not even saying I have any evidence or am even declaring foul play at all, I'm just saying that odds can be tipped slightly one way or another in minor ways and *over time* that adds up to a lot of money in a sport where the gambling is a billion-dollar industry unto itself. Think of it this way: if the odds say a team has a 50% chance of covering a spread, when really it's fixed so they have a 55% chance of covering the spread, and that happens every single game over a span of an entire season, that can result in 5-10% higher earnings by whoever has the additional information other gamblers don't have. Again, I'm not accusing or saying anything one way or another, I'm just saying that's all it would take to have a material impact, not necessarily a grand massive conspiracy that everyone is in on.
Because the shit would show up when the NFL grades the refs  
Zeke's Alibi : 10/16/2019 6:24 pm : link
It would stick out like a sore thumb, with one official throwing flags consistently on one team.
The amount of money it would take and the casinos would take notice.  
Zeke's Alibi : 10/16/2019 6:27 pm : link
Look into how FIFA handles it, they are much more transparent about their flagging of games, but the NFL is definetly in contact with large sportsbooks.

What benefit..  
FatMan in Charlotte : 10/16/2019 7:01 pm : link
is there to "set the odds slightly in favor"?

If the fix is in, the fix isn't in for a sure win, not a shift of the odds. A very large bet will be made by those expecting a win.

They don't put that money in thinking one guy is just trying to help out.
Just incompetent  
Irish : 10/16/2019 10:32 pm : link
I have always hated the fact that football is the only professional sport where officiating is not the regular full time job/career for these guys. In baseball, hockey and basketball, it is the chosen profession of those who officiate these sports. They are involved in year round training related to their work. In the NFL, not the case. It’s not a case of the fix being in...these guys are just incompetent. Always have been and always will be until the league insists on recruiting and training proper officials.
Hey Irish...  
bw in dc : 10/16/2019 10:42 pm : link
good to seeing you back on the board...
RE: Just incompetent  
FatMan in Charlotte : 10/17/2019 8:09 am : link
In comment 14631373 Irish said:
Quote:
I have always hated the fact that football is the only professional sport where officiating is not the regular full time job/career for these guys. In baseball, hockey and basketball, it is the chosen profession of those who officiate these sports. They are involved in year round training related to their work. In the NFL, not the case. It’s not a case of the fix being in...these guys are just incompetent. Always have been and always will be until the league insists on recruiting and training proper officials.


That's the realistic answer. We have part-time officials, many who are older
Hey bw  
Irish : 10/18/2019 11:59 pm : link
Good to be back. Happily retired now. Been dealing with parental health issues the past couple of years.
Put this on the other officiating thread as well....  
Jimmy Googs : 10/19/2019 7:19 am : link
Will be making a few wagers on NFL games today
and picking my survivor pool games too.

Wouldn't mind if the Conspiracy Theorists on this thread gave me their views on which teams (or players) will undoubtedly get favoritism from the refs on Sunday.

I will check in from time to time today for that foresight...
RE: Put this on the other officiating thread as well....  
Leg of Theismann : 10/23/2019 5:18 am : link
In comment 14633317 Jimmy Googs said:
Quote:
Will be making a few wagers on NFL games today
and picking my survivor pool games too.

Wouldn't mind if the Conspiracy Theorists on this thread gave me their views on which teams (or players) will undoubtedly get favoritism from the refs on Sunday.

I will check in from time to time today for that foresight...


People speculating on the possibility or even just the feasibility of officiating being corrupt in any form or fashion is entirely unrelated to those same people actually knowing which specific officials are corrupt and what the rigged outcomes are supposed to be. I don't even necessarily believe there's ever been any form of corruption or bribery or anything of the sort, I just happen to like to imagine the possibilities of: If it could be done, what would that look like and if done in a particular way would anyone actually pick up on it? It's just a fun thought experiment. I mean crimes and fraud are committed every day and most of the time people don't get caught for doing their crime/fraud, even our own government and military does all types of covert shit here and around the world that we will never know or hear about or even notice even if its right in front of us. Just because something isn't easily noticeable or obvious or seen with your own two eyes doesn't mean it's just entirely impossible that it could ever happen. Any industry where there's billions of dollars to be made I can guarantee you there's some form of fraud/crime going on somewhere in the system (not saying that means officiating is corrupt in the NFL, I once again feel obliged to clarify that).
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