2 ugly losses to start
2 wins (1 lucky, 1 against a very bad team)
2 losses to very good teams with a lot more talent
This is the week PS needs to show he can be a winning head coach ... the talent levels are comparable, the Cards have an early game on the east coast and Klingsbury is unproven ... there can be no excuses. (Except maybe the zebras)
The noise around Shurmur will get very loud if this is a loss.
The noise around Shurmur will get very loud if this is a loss.
Honestly? I’m expecting an improving Murray to give us big problems
And maybe it's because I disagreed with hiring him in the first place, but I just feel ultimately we need to start seeing some results. We are now approaching a year and a half which is a decent chunk of time in the NFL, plus his prior HC record is not good.
Murray will present problems but this is known to be a tricky start time for west coast teams. We are at home. We should be getting some horses back. We are a game out of the division lead. I think this is a pretty big game for Shurmur.
Ummm...
- Donovan McNabb
- Sam Bradford
- Nick Foles
- Case Keenum
You can argue the guy might not be the best HC, but his stints as QB coach and OC's showed improvement in those players. Led them to their best seasons.
Then run up gut from under center, also qb sneaks.
Then power in close
Quote:
If the Giants are progressing, this is exactly the type of game they need to win. Even more so if Engram and/or Barkley are back.
The noise around Shurmur will get very loud if this is a loss.
Honestly? I’m expecting an improving Murray to give us big problems
I agree is this giants defense disciplined enough to handle this type of QB
I don’t know but this is s big game for Bettcher as well as HC
And maybe it's because I disagreed with hiring him in the first place, but I just feel ultimately we need to start seeing some results. We are now approaching a year and a half which is a decent chunk of time in the NFL, plus his prior HC record is not good.
Murray will present problems but this is known to be a tricky start time for west coast teams. We are at home. We should be getting some horses back. We are a game out of the division lead. I think this is a pretty big game for Shurmur.
While I am tending to agree with the Shurmur is questionable crowd, his previous record is truly irrelevant as it was with the Browns turd organization. Nobody has won there and the new geniuses over there still aren't winning with pretty talented squad.
And approaching 1 1/2 years with a team that was being torn down and restocked with young players - pretty hard to show anything. Yet, I know what you mean. They started to get going and stalled. Yeah a lot of injuries to prime and key players. Yet questionable personnel decisions and in game play calling (the punt) give you pause.
But yes, they need to do something this week or the wolves will be hollowing in earnest.
Quote:
If the Giants are progressing, this is exactly the type of game they need to win. Even more so if Engram and/or Barkley are back.
The noise around Shurmur will get very loud if this is a loss.
Honestly? I’m expecting an improving Murray to give us big problems
Improving? The Cards played two of the worst defenses in league last two weeks and two teams that will finish with top 5 picks. They haven't played anyone and they only tied with the Lions because Patricia underestimated their dink and dunk offense effectiveness in garbage time. They suck.
I get the sense that the team is headed in the right direction. I think PS is a good coach for Jones.
From where I sit he still has a long leash and I still think and hope he might be a long termer for us.
Quote:
Which QBs has Shurmur "developed".
Ummm...
- Donovan McNabb
- Sam Bradford
- Nick Foles
- Case Keenum
You can argue the guy might not be the best HC, but his stints as QB coach and OC's showed improvement in those players. Led them to their best seasons.
I wonder if that's his ceiling... as an OC. The jury is clearly still out on if he's HC material (if you take his Cle record into play. maybe the jury is in... who knows).
It is exactly the type of game they should and need to win. No excuses.
For this team, just win.
Quote:
In comment 14630554 arniefez said:
Quote:
Which QBs has Shurmur "developed".
Ummm...
- Donovan McNabb
- Sam Bradford
- Nick Foles
- Case Keenum
You can argue the guy might not be the best HC, but his stints as QB coach and OC's showed improvement in those players. Led them to their best seasons.
I wonder if that's his ceiling... as an OC. The jury is clearly still out on if he's HC material (if you take his Cle record into play. maybe the jury is in... who knows).
There are plenty of great OCs(i.e., Norv Turner) that were not good HCs. Bum Phillips was a great DC and meh as HC. So it is very possible that all PS is, is an OC.
Lose this game and they are likely staring at another season of 4-6 wins. Not good.
If they were to lose a close game - well, that might be OK.
If they lose in a sloppy or non-competitive form, then there's a real cause for concern.
pretty low bar for an HC, how about winning some games!!!
It's an important task, but with Shurmur heavily involved in game planning/offense and the overall management of the team, I would think that the details of mechanics teaching (of any position) would be delegated to the position coaches. This would put the job on Shula to be the QB guru.
Shurmur is likely safe for next year, but that doesn't mean position coaches can't be changed, or duties reassigned (can you say 'play calling'?).
Don't want to keep a HC who's main claim to fame is QB guru if the rest of the team is crumbling. HC main duty should be managing a team/making sure his staff is doing the job, not micromanaging. Thus, I wouldn't keep him just for the sake of DJ.
You are kidding right? Many Giants fans are ridiculous. Schumer is doing a decent job so far. I like what they are doing with this team. I really like how they are learning from wins and losses. If you watched the tape they played very well against an all world team. That D is a monster and we had no answers in talent just scheme. The Vikes D a week before was pretty dang good too. So lets just all sit back and chill.. watch and enjoy the growth of this potentially really really good team being built. This totally reminds me of just before we hired Coughlin and the reaction when we did. Coughlin Rules!
That I hope I’m wrong is a given, but for those who don’t believe he will hurt us, don’t bitch if that becomes a reality.
That’s how this Kool-Aid drinking, rose-colored glasses blue blooded Giants’ fan see it.
All that said, it's today's game, crazy D fronts, I had shanny as the choice prior to Macadoo, that sort of system is the killer ap now.
All that said, you don't fire coach nor the DC nearly yet. They both deserve a few years and better pieces and can and must adjust a bit.
Shanny is obviously more doable, copiable.
Macadoo vs Shurmer
Shurmer is obviously light years better. But, there is (maras choice?) a bit of build in bias to overcome in that type of system , such as which makes good OL outcomes harder to achieve.
But, again, he's got his OC, and the RB, they showed variety in O schemes in preseason, reasons for optimism that if they choose to change it up that they can do so.
Kittles make Nick Cullens into a 90+ passer rating on an ostensibly garbage Richburg lead offense.
Basic geometry, TE is usually closest to the QB and on the line of scrimmage so natural 1st read and wide open on blitzes usually. Too bad we really don't have a prototype TE.
But again, it's not about absolutes (y/n). That's not how useful conversations typically go.
That may be a system bias and was a problem with macadoo. Which was why I wanted about the huge g-c-g combo, which we now have, including the idea of little known practice squad guard halapio at center.
That said , why I looked at shanny when he was OC at falcons, outside zone runs force the lbs out of position and allow our OL to tee of as opposed to the opposing DL teeing off.
It's basic, basic obvious, I know , but if it negates the pass rush ....yep...
Quote:
Which QBs has Shurmur "developed".
Ummm...
- Donovan McNabb
- Sam Bradford
- Nick Foles
- Case Keenum
You can argue the guy might not be the best HC, but his stints as QB coach and OC's showed improvement in those players. Led them to their best seasons.
Reid seems to be doing just fine developing QBs without Pat Shurmur. I'm not sure how to divide up credit here, but it seems misguided to assign all of it to Shurmur.
The noise around Shurmur will get very loud if this is a loss.
But again, it's not about absolutes (y/n). That's not how useful conversations typically go.
It could be a Tisch thing. Doesn't he have a baseball background? Seems like analytics is driving this we need Eli to throw 70% goal that was spouted both times we hired a wco HC. That's why some arbitrary metric goal for an organization is stoopid, you wind up hring a wco HC that best gives you a chance to meet that goal that completely goes against the skillet of your starting QB.
What is the misguided part and who is giving him all the credit?
I said that the QB's he was coaching had their best seasons while he was guiding them. Not sure anything else really needs to be inferred.
jones has looked a little worse every game since TB. in other words, he is going in the wrong direction. i know it's only four games, and people like to point out eli's struggles in 2004, esp in the ravens game where he turned in a 0.0 QBR.. the thing people gloss over is that, while eli looked mediocre to bad in his first three-four starts, he had solid to excellent games against cincinnati and pittsburgh toward the end of that season, where the team lost close games by 1-2 points, and then obviously closed the season with the win against dallas.
so, now 4 games in, i think jones needs to show something, as well as shurmur.
...the numerics are very simple:
(1) Seven wins or more and he'll definitely be back next season;
(2) Five to six wins 50% chance he's here;
(3) Four wins or less he is gone.
The narrative about giving Daniel Jones a consistent coaching presence is a false one IMO. This is much more about whether or not Pat Shurmur can lead an NFL team.
Four wins this season would make him 19-46 as a Head Coach. And that makes him a goner with zero chance he'll ever get a Head Coaching job again in the NFL.
100% agreement here. It wouldn't be the first time I set myself up for disappointment but I'm expecting a double digit win here. It's a horizontal dink and dunk that hasn't been able to beat teams deep and stalls out in the redzone. Our struggling defense actually matches up fairly well here. I'm sure Kirk, Fitz and the RBs will eat out of the slot and in the short passing game but I think our defense can keep them kicking FGs once the field shortens.
I'm also expecting a big game from Jones, he gets to take the donut off the bat after a tough Vikings defense and impossible situation last Thursday.
Silly post.
jones has looked a little worse every game since TB. in other words, he is going in the wrong direction. i know it's only four games, and people like to point out eli's struggles in 2004, esp in the ravens game where he turned in a 0.0 QBR.. the thing people gloss over is that, while eli looked mediocre to bad in his first three-four starts, he had solid to excellent games against cincinnati and pittsburgh toward the end of that season, where the team lost close games by 1-2 points, and then obviously closed the season with the win against dallas.
so, now 4 games in, i think jones needs to show something, as well as shurmur.
Pretty steep hill to climb with a loss.
5th loss requires 7-2 finish to get to 9-7.
Pretty steep hill to climb with a loss.
5th loss requires 7-2 finish to get to 9-7.
We still have the Lions then Dallas before the Jet game.
IMO we have to win 3 of the next 4.
5-5 is a must to have any kind of a chance.
Pretty steep hill to climb with a loss.
5th loss requires 7-2 finish to get to 9-7.
Love your enthusiasm, but I don't believe the Giants will be "relevant" this year after two games with Philly and one more with Dallas.
no excuses for us not to win this game none !
If we go 6-10 then I think we need to consider
a change at HC .
I think on a more macro level, given the circumstances, this game is probably going to tell you a lot about where year 2 of his program is headed. NFL coaches are usually given a year grace period to implement their methods routines, 2 years is asking a lot. Especially for a HC with Shurmur’s record.
But in a game like this, I tend to think W/L does matter. We may not be there yet, but if we can’t beat the bad teams, we haven’t made ENOUGH progress.
You guys are chuckleheads...
You guys are chuckleheads...
Most people aren't advocating dumping him now - but up until now, proper evaluation of Shurmur has always had some caveats - 'it's a rebuild', 'QB's a rookie', 'Eli can't run his system', etc.
Here's a game where a lot of those challenges should be a wash. Another rebuilding team, another rookie QB, another HC who hasn't had a lot of time to implement his system. This might be the best opportunity to see what Shurmur is made of to date.
And if they play a shit game - maybe it's time to start the countdown clock on his tenure. A rebuild is dependent on a HC - if you have the wrong guy, then you're not rebuilding anything, you're just wasting time.
But I am clearly mocking the few calling for his head Monday morning if they lose, and even the ones that are expecting a slam dunk victory. To me that sounds like too many here do not understand where this team sits in the pecking order of the NFL.
Do I think the Giants should win this sunday...yes. Slam dunk...absolutely not. Kyler Murray could run around the field all day long before one of our elite LBs or Bethea tracked him down...