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This is the week Shurmur has to show something ...

Spider56 : 10/16/2019 8:45 am
2 ugly losses to start
2 wins (1 lucky, 1 against a very bad team)
2 losses to very good teams with a lot more talent

This is the week PS needs to show he can be a winning head coach ... the talent levels are comparable, the Cards have an early game on the east coast and Klingsbury is unproven ... there can be no excuses. (Except maybe the zebras)



Whether heís here next year or the year after or not,  
Big Blue '56 : 10/16/2019 8:47 am : link
Iíd be content if he can develop DJ as heís done other QBs
I agree with this...  
Chris684 : 10/16/2019 8:47 am : link
If the Giants are progressing, this is exactly the type of game they need to win. Even more so if Engram and/or Barkley are back.

The noise around Shurmur will get very loud if this is a loss.
RE: I agree with this...  
Big Blue '56 : 10/16/2019 8:48 am : link
In comment 14630546 Chris684 said:
Quote:
If the Giants are progressing, this is exactly the type of game they need to win. Even more so if Engram and/or Barkley are back.

The noise around Shurmur will get very loud if this is a loss.


Honestly? Iím expecting an improving Murray to give us big problems
.  
Eric from BBI : Admin : 10/16/2019 8:53 am : link
I assume by "show something" you mean win?
No sarcasm  
arniefez : 10/16/2019 8:53 am : link
Which QBs has Shurmur "developed".
Time to open the playbook  
ryanmkeane : 10/16/2019 8:55 am : link
against this defense and hopefully Barkley back. Let's put 35+ on the board.
BB56  
Chris684 : 10/16/2019 8:57 am : link
I like to think I am far from a sky is falling type.

And maybe it's because I disagreed with hiring him in the first place, but I just feel ultimately we need to start seeing some results. We are now approaching a year and a half which is a decent chunk of time in the NFL, plus his prior HC record is not good.

Murray will present problems but this is known to be a tricky start time for west coast teams. We are at home. We should be getting some horses back. We are a game out of the division lead. I think this is a pretty big game for Shurmur.
RE: No sarcasm  
FatMan in Charlotte : 10/16/2019 8:58 am : link
In comment 14630554 arniefez said:
Quote:
Which QBs has Shurmur "developed".


Ummm...

- Donovan McNabb
- Sam Bradford
- Nick Foles
- Case Keenum

You can argue the guy might not be the best HC, but his stints as QB coach and OC's showed improvement in those players. Led them to their best seasons.

How about some  
NikkiMac : 10/16/2019 9:03 am : link
Power offense .why keep running up the gut what happened to 2 backs with the FB what about sweeps flair passes and The TE is supposed to be the rookies best friend where is he .....So far I see a finesse offense what happened to the hog mollies where are they ?
Outside zone runs zip quick like  
idiotsavant : 10/16/2019 9:08 am : link
And play action roll out other side shanny style .

Then run up gut from under center, also qb sneaks.

Then power in close
I agree  
NikkiMac : 10/16/2019 9:10 am : link
.
RE: RE: I agree with this...  
NikkiMac : 10/16/2019 9:16 am : link
In comment 14630549 Big Blue '56 said:
Quote:
In comment 14630546 Chris684 said:


Quote:


If the Giants are progressing, this is exactly the type of game they need to win. Even more so if Engram and/or Barkley are back.

The noise around Shurmur will get very loud if this is a loss.



Honestly? Iím expecting an improving Murray to give us big problems


I agree is this giants defense disciplined enough to handle this type of QB

I donít know but this is s big game for Bettcher as well as HC
RE: BB56  
section125 : 10/16/2019 9:16 am : link
In comment 14630557 Chris684 said:
Quote:
I like to think I am far from a sky is falling type.

And maybe it's because I disagreed with hiring him in the first place, but I just feel ultimately we need to start seeing some results. We are now approaching a year and a half which is a decent chunk of time in the NFL, plus his prior HC record is not good.

Murray will present problems but this is known to be a tricky start time for west coast teams. We are at home. We should be getting some horses back. We are a game out of the division lead. I think this is a pretty big game for Shurmur.


While I am tending to agree with the Shurmur is questionable crowd, his previous record is truly irrelevant as it was with the Browns turd organization. Nobody has won there and the new geniuses over there still aren't winning with pretty talented squad.

And approaching 1 1/2 years with a team that was being torn down and restocked with young players - pretty hard to show anything. Yet, I know what you mean. They started to get going and stalled. Yeah a lot of injuries to prime and key players. Yet questionable personnel decisions and in game play calling (the punt) give you pause.

But yes, they need to do something this week or the wolves will be hollowing in earnest.
RE: RE: I agree with this...  
Zeke's Alibi : 10/16/2019 9:25 am : link
In comment 14630549 Big Blue '56 said:
Quote:
In comment 14630546 Chris684 said:


Quote:


If the Giants are progressing, this is exactly the type of game they need to win. Even more so if Engram and/or Barkley are back.

The noise around Shurmur will get very loud if this is a loss.



Honestly? Iím expecting an improving Murray to give us big problems


Improving? The Cards played two of the worst defenses in league last two weeks and two teams that will finish with top 5 picks. They haven't played anyone and they only tied with the Lions because Patricia underestimated their dink and dunk offense effectiveness in garbage time. They suck.
Put me in the other camp...  
DonQuixote : 10/16/2019 9:26 am : link
I think PS has given the team stability but yet we don't have winning talent.

I get the sense that the team is headed in the right direction. I think PS is a good coach for Jones.

From where I sit he still has a long leash and I still think and hope he might be a long termer for us.
If we don't beat the Cards with 10 days at 1 pm with a better roster  
Zeke's Alibi : 10/16/2019 9:27 am : link
assuming SB is back I'll be all aboard the fire PS train. We should win comfortably.
RE: RE: No sarcasm  
GiantsRage2007 : 10/16/2019 9:28 am : link
In comment 14630558 FatMan in Charlotte said:
Quote:
In comment 14630554 arniefez said:


Quote:


Which QBs has Shurmur "developed".



Ummm...

- Donovan McNabb
- Sam Bradford
- Nick Foles
- Case Keenum

You can argue the guy might not be the best HC, but his stints as QB coach and OC's showed improvement in those players. Led them to their best seasons.


I wonder if that's his ceiling... as an OC. The jury is clearly still out on if he's HC material (if you take his Cle record into play. maybe the jury is in... who knows).
Regardless..  
FatMan in Charlotte : 10/16/2019 9:28 am : link
of who the coach is and who the opposing QB is, the Giants are playing a bad team coming across the country.

It is exactly the type of game they should and need to win. No excuses.
RE: If we don't beat the Cards with 10 days at 1 pm with a better roster  
crick n NC : 10/16/2019 9:30 am : link
In comment 14630586 Zeke's Alibi said:
Quote:
assuming SB is back I'll be all aboard the fire PS train. We should win comfortably.


For this team, just win.
RE: RE: RE: No sarcasm  
section125 : 10/16/2019 9:35 am : link
In comment 14630589 GiantsRage2007 said:
Quote:
In comment 14630558 FatMan in Charlotte said:


Quote:


In comment 14630554 arniefez said:


Quote:


Which QBs has Shurmur "developed".



Ummm...

- Donovan McNabb
- Sam Bradford
- Nick Foles
- Case Keenum

You can argue the guy might not be the best HC, but his stints as QB coach and OC's showed improvement in those players. Led them to their best seasons.




I wonder if that's his ceiling... as an OC. The jury is clearly still out on if he's HC material (if you take his Cle record into play. maybe the jury is in... who knows).


There are plenty of great OCs(i.e., Norv Turner) that were not good HCs. Bum Phillips was a great DC and meh as HC. So it is very possible that all PS is, is an OC.
Hyperbole or not  
djm : 10/16/2019 9:38 am : link
This is shurmurís biggest game of his HC career. Of course we donít know things can flow from here out but based on the tea leaves and the schedule and their record, the giants need this game at home. The perception on shurmurís tenure here will sway in the direction this game goes. Need to win.
The way I see it...  
Chris684 : 10/16/2019 9:53 am : link
Win this game and you can see a path to 7-9 wins which would be another good step.

Lose this game and they are likely staring at another season of 4-6 wins. Not good.
No excuse for a loss, provided Saquon & Engram are on the field...  
SFGFNCGiantsFan : 10/16/2019 10:03 am : link
At home vs. a rookie QB vs. a West Coast-ish team at a 1 PM EST start coming off 10 days off.
They should be able to win the game  
jcn56 : 10/16/2019 10:05 am : link
All of the reasons you can give for the Giants losing lately apply in spades to the Cardinals, and they're traveling across country for an early game.

If they were to lose a close game - well, that might be OK.

If they lose in a sloppy or non-competitive form, then there's a real cause for concern.
RE: Whether heís here next year or the year after or not,  
gmenatlarge : 10/16/2019 10:16 am : link
In comment 14630545 Big Blue '56 said:
Quote:
Iíd be content if he can develop DJ as heís done other QBs


pretty low bar for an HC, how about winning some games!!!
As head honcho,  
fkap : 10/16/2019 10:18 am : link
how much is Shurmur involved in the education of DJones?

It's an important task, but with Shurmur heavily involved in game planning/offense and the overall management of the team, I would think that the details of mechanics teaching (of any position) would be delegated to the position coaches. This would put the job on Shula to be the QB guru.

Shurmur is likely safe for next year, but that doesn't mean position coaches can't be changed, or duties reassigned (can you say 'play calling'?).

Don't want to keep a HC who's main claim to fame is QB guru if the rest of the team is crumbling. HC main duty should be managing a team/making sure his staff is doing the job, not micromanaging. Thus, I wouldn't keep him just for the sake of DJ.
RE: No sarcasm  
Gettledogman : 10/16/2019 10:20 am : link
In comment 14630554 arniefez said:
Quote:
Which QBs has Shurmur "developed".


You are kidding right? Many Giants fans are ridiculous. Schumer is doing a decent job so far. I like what they are doing with this team. I really like how they are learning from wins and losses. If you watched the tape they played very well against an all world team. That D is a monster and we had no answers in talent just scheme. The Vikes D a week before was pretty dang good too. So lets just all sit back and chill.. watch and enjoy the growth of this potentially really really good team being built. This totally reminds me of just before we hired Coughlin and the reaction when we did. Coughlin Rules!
spell check Schumer Shurmer  
Gettledogman : 10/16/2019 10:21 am : link
lol
You still..  
FatMan in Charlotte : 10/16/2019 10:25 am : link
need to modify that spellcheck:)
Murray  
Big Blue '56 : 10/16/2019 10:32 am : link
is going to give us fits. He will escape time and time again picking up first downs. Iíve seen this type of elusive/slippery QB before. When have they not given us big problems.

That I hope Iím wrong is a given, but for those who donít believe he will hurt us, donít bitch if that becomes a reality.

Thatís how this Kool-Aid drinking, rose-colored glasses blue blooded Giantsí fan see it.
How about some competency  
gmenatlarge : 10/16/2019 10:46 am : link
you know like being able to manage a game clock. Oh here's an idea how about adjusting in game to help your LT when he is getting abused (Tampa)! You know HC type of stuff!
Overall for a system guy he seems very  
idiotsavant : 10/16/2019 10:51 am : link
Creative and competent with regards to wr routes. They've gotten a lot from wrs we had honestly never heard of. Practice squad guys. Kudos to the getts there also.

All that said, it's today's game, crazy D fronts, I had shanny as the choice prior to Macadoo, that sort of system is the killer ap now.

All that said, you don't fire coach nor the DC nearly yet. They both deserve a few years and better pieces and can and must adjust a bit.
As usual  
idiotsavant : 10/16/2019 10:58 am : link
Shanny vs Belechik

Shanny is obviously more doable, copiable.

Macadoo vs Shurmer

Shurmer is obviously light years better. But, there is (maras choice?) a bit of build in bias to overcome in that type of system , such as which makes good OL outcomes harder to achieve.

But, again, he's got his OC, and the RB, they showed variety in O schemes in preseason, reasons for optimism that if they choose to change it up that they can do so.
RE: How about some  
Coach Red Beaulieu : 10/16/2019 11:02 am : link
In comment 14630561 NikkiMac said:
Quote:
Power offense .why keep running up the gut what happened to 2 backs with the FB what about sweeps flair passes and The TE is supposed to be the rookies best friend where is he .....So far I see a finesse offense what happened to the hog mollies where are they ?

Kittles make Nick Cullens into a 90+ passer rating on an ostensibly garbage Richburg lead offense.

Basic geometry, TE is usually closest to the QB and on the line of scrimmage so natural 1st read and wide open on blitzes usually. Too bad we really don't have a prototype TE.
With regards to system choice on O  
idiotsavant : 10/16/2019 11:03 am : link
That transends the two general managers and therefore looks like a Mara thing.

But again, it's not about absolutes (y/n). That's not how useful conversations typically go.
Coach and nikki  
idiotsavant : 10/16/2019 11:09 am : link
For me, problem with straight drop backs coupled with runs up the gut is that you fail to force the DL and lbs into misdirection. In other words, either way the lbs are in the right spot for them to make plays.

That may be a system bias and was a problem with macadoo. Which was why I wanted about the huge g-c-g combo, which we now have, including the idea of little known practice squad guard halapio at center.

That said , why I looked at shanny when he was OC at falcons, outside zone runs force the lbs out of position and allow our OL to tee of as opposed to the opposing DL teeing off.

Its threefild  
idiotsavant : 10/16/2019 11:12 am : link
Outside zone runs, designed QB runs on the other end, designed QB roll out pass on the other end .

It's basic, basic obvious, I know , but if it negates the pass rush ....yep...
RE: RE: No sarcasm  
Ten Ton Hammer : 10/16/2019 11:13 am : link
In comment 14630558 FatMan in Charlotte said:
Quote:
In comment 14630554 arniefez said:


Quote:


Which QBs has Shurmur "developed".



Ummm...

- Donovan McNabb
- Sam Bradford
- Nick Foles
- Case Keenum

You can argue the guy might not be the best HC, but his stints as QB coach and OC's showed improvement in those players. Led them to their best seasons.


Reid seems to be doing just fine developing QBs without Pat Shurmur. I'm not sure how to divide up credit here, but it seems misguided to assign all of it to Shurmur.
RE: I agree with this...  
djstat : 10/16/2019 11:20 am : link
In comment 14630546 Chris684 said:
Quote:
If the Giants are progressing, this is exactly the type of game they need to win. Even more so if Engram and/or Barkley are back.

The noise around Shurmur will get very loud if this is a loss.
Hard to say that is Barkley, Engram, Shep do not play
RE: With regards to system choice on O  
Coach Red Beaulieu : 10/16/2019 11:38 am : link
In comment 14630746 idiotsavant said:
Quote:
That transends the two general managers and therefore looks like a Mara thing.

But again, it's not about absolutes (y/n). That's not how useful conversations typically go.

It could be a Tisch thing. Doesn't he have a baseball background? Seems like analytics is driving this we need Eli to throw 70% goal that was spouted both times we hired a wco HC. That's why some arbitrary metric goal for an organization is stoopid, you wind up hring a wco HC that best gives you a chance to meet that goal that completely goes against the skillet of your starting QB.
Reid..  
FatMan in Charlotte : 10/16/2019 11:47 am : link
coached all of those players??

Quote:
Reid seems to be doing just fine developing QBs without Pat Shurmur. I'm not sure how to divide up credit here, but it seems misguided to assign all of it to Shurmur.


What is the misguided part and who is giving him all the credit?

I said that the QB's he was coaching had their best seasons while he was guiding them. Not sure anything else really needs to be inferred.
shurmur as QB whisperer  
japanhead : 10/16/2019 11:48 am : link
i think is overblown. he got some players on pretty good teams to play well. some like to give shurmur credit for mcnabb, i contend it was more andy reid. reid also made kevin kolb and the corpse of mike vick look good.

jones has looked a little worse every game since TB. in other words, he is going in the wrong direction. i know it's only four games, and people like to point out eli's struggles in 2004, esp in the ravens game where he turned in a 0.0 QBR.. the thing people gloss over is that, while eli looked mediocre to bad in his first three-four starts, he had solid to excellent games against cincinnati and pittsburgh toward the end of that season, where the team lost close games by 1-2 points, and then obviously closed the season with the win against dallas.

so, now 4 games in, i think jones needs to show something, as well as shurmur.
Very curious to see how we perform in this one.  
bceagle05 : 10/16/2019 12:03 pm : link
I think we'll have our hands full with this team, unfortunately.
Contrary to the popular forecast for Pat Shurmur...  
M.S. : 10/16/2019 12:26 pm : link

...the numerics are very simple:

(1) Seven wins or more and he'll definitely be back next season;

(2) Five to six wins 50% chance he's here;

(3) Four wins or less he is gone.

The narrative about giving Daniel Jones a consistent coaching presence is a false one IMO. This is much more about whether or not Pat Shurmur can lead an NFL team.

Four wins this season would make him 19-46 as a Head Coach. And that makes him a goner with zero chance he'll ever get a Head Coaching job again in the NFL.
RE: If we don't beat the Cards with 10 days at 1 pm with a better roster  
AcesUp : 10/16/2019 12:37 pm : link
In comment 14630586 Zeke's Alibi said:
Quote:
assuming SB is back I'll be all aboard the fire PS train. We should win comfortably.


100% agreement here. It wouldn't be the first time I set myself up for disappointment but I'm expecting a double digit win here. It's a horizontal dink and dunk that hasn't been able to beat teams deep and stalls out in the redzone. Our struggling defense actually matches up fairly well here. I'm sure Kirk, Fitz and the RBs will eat out of the slot and in the short passing game but I think our defense can keep them kicking FGs once the field shortens.

I'm also expecting a big game from Jones, he gets to take the donut off the bat after a tough Vikings defense and impossible situation last Thursday.
If Shurmur  
broadbandz : 10/16/2019 12:58 pm : link
loses this game he should be fired immediately. No shower, escorted straight to the parking lot. Enough excuses for this guy already.
RE: If Shurmur  
Big Blue '56 : 10/16/2019 1:22 pm : link
In comment 14630904 broadbandz said:
Quote:
loses this game he should be fired immediately. No shower, escorted straight to the parking lot. Enough excuses for this guy already.


Silly post.
RE: shurmur as QB whisperer  
HomerJones45 : 10/16/2019 1:41 pm : link
In comment 14630796 japanhead said:
Quote:
i think is overblown. he got some players on pretty good teams to play well. some like to give shurmur credit for mcnabb, i contend it was more andy reid. reid also made kevin kolb and the corpse of mike vick look good.

jones has looked a little worse every game since TB. in other words, he is going in the wrong direction. i know it's only four games, and people like to point out eli's struggles in 2004, esp in the ravens game where he turned in a 0.0 QBR.. the thing people gloss over is that, while eli looked mediocre to bad in his first three-four starts, he had solid to excellent games against cincinnati and pittsburgh toward the end of that season, where the team lost close games by 1-2 points, and then obviously closed the season with the win against dallas.

so, now 4 games in, i think jones needs to show something, as well as shurmur.
Way overblown. McNabb had been a 3 or 4 year starter before PS was qb coach. McNabb had a magical year when the Eagles went to the SB and never came close to repeating it. Sam Bradford?? Please. Case Keenum?? Nice development job. Nick Foles went to the SB when Shurmur wasn't anywhere near him. If anything, these qb's look like they get a one year pump up and then go back to whatever they were regardless of whether Shurmur was there or not.Coincidence is not causation.
The Giants remain relevant with a win  
Reale01 : 10/16/2019 1:53 pm : link
One game out of first in NFC East going into game vs Jets.

Pretty steep hill to climb with a loss.
5th loss requires 7-2 finish to get to 9-7.
RE: The Giants remain relevant with a win  
cjac : 10/16/2019 1:56 pm : link
In comment 14630983 Reale01 said:
Quote:
One game out of first in NFC East going into game vs Jets.

Pretty steep hill to climb with a loss.
5th loss requires 7-2 finish to get to 9-7.


We still have the Lions then Dallas before the Jet game.

IMO we have to win 3 of the next 4.

5-5 is a must to have any kind of a chance.

RE: The Giants remain relevant with a win  
M.S. : 10/16/2019 2:06 pm : link
In comment 14630983 Reale01 said:
Quote:
One game out of first in NFC East going into game vs Jets.

Pretty steep hill to climb with a loss.
5th loss requires 7-2 finish to get to 9-7.

Love your enthusiasm, but I don't believe the Giants will be "relevant" this year after two games with Philly and one more with Dallas.
I am not sold on Shurmur as the head coach but .  
Bluesbreaker : 10/16/2019 3:25 pm : link
I think he is a decent OC that said really
no excuses for us not to win this game none !
If we go 6-10 then I think we need to consider
a change at HC .
So 18 games in, this is the one where Shumur finally has to do his job  
Go Terps : 10/16/2019 3:27 pm : link
?
Completely Disagree  
PaulN : 10/16/2019 3:43 pm : link
We need a Head Coach, not a QB coach, Shurmur stinks, and is a horrible head coach. I do not want to move forward with him at all, crap is being accepted by Giant fans because they have seen nothing but crap for too long now.
RE: So 18 games in, this is the one where Shumur finally has to do his job  
Chris684 : 10/16/2019 5:10 pm : link
In comment 14631110 Go Terps said:
Quote:
?


I think on a more macro level, given the circumstances, this game is probably going to tell you a lot about where year 2 of his program is headed. NFL coaches are usually given a year grace period to implement their methods routines, 2 years is asking a lot. Especially for a HC with Shurmurís record.
I really feel pretty good about this game  
Leg of Theismann : 10/16/2019 5:56 pm : link
For the simple fact that I like the idea of Bettcher's D going up against this silly college offense and Mighty Mouse Kyler Murray. The offenses that scare me going up against Bettcher are the passing attacks that can really stretch the field and easily make us pay for being overly aggressive. With the AZ offense dinking and dunking all over the place, I feel good about Bettcher's aggressive D keeping everything in front of it and closing open space quickly (when that open space is IN FRONT OF THEM, key point). I don't think Murray has the experience nor the arm (yet) to beat us deep and I think this is one of those games where Bettcher's methods will prevail and remind us why he's actually been a successful coordinator at times.
When I look at the big picture  
UberAlias : 10/16/2019 6:36 pm : link
Iím not focused on wins and losses. Iím focused on the young guys their development and the direction the needle is pointing.

But in a game like this, I tend to think W/L does matter. We may not be there yet, but if we canít beat the bad teams, we havenít made ENOUGH progress.
3  
Gruber : 10/17/2019 5:21 am : link
It's not the one game, it's the next three, especially is Saquon is back for all three of them. I think you'll get a pretty decent picture of what is going on.
Comical thread to say the least  
Jimmy Googs : 10/17/2019 7:05 am : link
Firing a coach in Oct because he isnít winning enough with a defense that is near bottom of league, a QB that should have been cut in the past year or so, and another QB that has a grand total of 4 career starts under his belt. Not to mention that the best player on the whole team, by far, has played in really only 2 games thus far due to injury.

You guys are chuckleheads...
RE: Comical thread to say the least  
jcn56 : 10/17/2019 8:22 am : link
In comment 14631411 Jimmy Googs said:
Quote:
Firing a coach in Oct because he isnít winning enough with a defense that is near bottom of league, a QB that should have been cut in the past year or so, and another QB that has a grand total of 4 career starts under his belt. Not to mention that the best player on the whole team, by far, has played in really only 2 games thus far due to injury.

You guys are chuckleheads...


Most people aren't advocating dumping him now - but up until now, proper evaluation of Shurmur has always had some caveats - 'it's a rebuild', 'QB's a rookie', 'Eli can't run his system', etc.

Here's a game where a lot of those challenges should be a wash. Another rebuilding team, another rookie QB, another HC who hasn't had a lot of time to implement his system. This might be the best opportunity to see what Shurmur is made of to date.

And if they play a shit game - maybe it's time to start the countdown clock on his tenure. A rebuild is dependent on a HC - if you have the wrong guy, then you're not rebuilding anything, you're just wasting time.
jcn - I am not debating if they play a "shit game"  
Jimmy Googs : 10/17/2019 11:03 am : link
this week against this particular weak opponent then Shurmur shouldn't have some accountability.

But I am clearly mocking the few calling for his head Monday morning if they lose, and even the ones that are expecting a slam dunk victory. To me that sounds like too many here do not understand where this team sits in the pecking order of the NFL.

Do I think the Giants should win this sunday...yes. Slam dunk...absolutely not. Kyler Murray could run around the field all day long before one of our elite LBs or Bethea tracked him down...

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