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The Rams or Giants?

BillyM : 10/16/2019 1:58 pm
On the surface, it is obviously easy to say you would rather be the Rams right now. Great young coach, great young talent in Donald, a near championship last year and probably a playoff run this.

But if you had to choose one scenario/team over the other, gun to head, say over the next 5-7 years, where would you place your bets? Obviously taking out of this hypothetical exercise our very heavy Giants allegiance.

On coaching, I'd obviously give the edge to the Rams, by a lot. Sean McVay is the real deal. As for Shurmur, the jury is very much still out at the Head Coach level. Coordinator, definitely a talent.

Superstars; they have Gurley (always hurt) and Aaron Donald; who is a bonafide top 3-5 player. We have Saquon, who too has to shake off the injury bug, but equally is at the top echelon in terms of future talent.

They have a young QB in Goff, we have promise with a young QB in Jones.

The main difference? They literally have no first round picks for 5 years! Five! For them, the chips are all pushed into the middle of the table. If they don't win this year or next, they are in deep trouble. Has there ever been a team with no first round picks for that time span? I say no, by a mile, without any data to back it.

The Giants on the other hand, quietly seem to be accumulating more and more picks, succeeding in drafting at all levels. Something that has been a real differentiating factor between Getty and Reese. Which I love given his ability to package picks, move up to mid rounds and grab guys like Connelly and Slayton.

Overall, though, what have you? Right now, if the Rams team with all the peripheral draft ramifications can be in Blue, would you take it over what we have and where we are going via our building process?

Little exercise in short termism versus long termism. Neither answer as wrong, as going for a championship right now is not a bad look. Just curious.

I'm very much down on Goff  
UConn4523 : 10/16/2019 2:00 pm : link
just don't think he has it between the ears which is usually something you can't coach. And now that they are locked into him for a while, that's going to be a considerable amount of cap invested in a player that likely won't ever be worth it.

Other than that I'd love to be them. They have tons of talent, and are making a big push to win this year. They also have a coach who's a lot better than ours. I would sign up for that.
depends on your horizon  
giants#1 : 10/16/2019 2:03 pm : link
Next 2-3 years? Rams

Next 5+ years? Giants

But a lot can change in 5 years, especially in the NFL.
RE: depends on your horizon  
BillyM : 10/16/2019 2:04 pm : link
In comment 14630991 giants#1 said:
Quote:
Next 2-3 years? Rams

Next 5+ years? Giants

But a lot can change in 5 years, especially in the NFL.


From my seat, while it would be great to make a run this year, damn....I would be scared sh+tless of the thought of not only no first rounders for 5 years, but if they are relatively good, second rounders that are closer to low thirds. That is a scary proposition.
The Sean McVay system is very dumb downed  
Eli2020 : 10/16/2019 2:07 pm : link
for Goff. See how often the do 11 personel and iterations of the same play and it's pretty obvious.

As for your question, I would hands down take the Rams. Regardless of 1st round picks, they will be contenders for at least the next 3 seasons, if not longer.

The only worry is Gurley, but if they can draft well on the o-line, he won't be as necessary. That D is going to be a monster for a while as well.
Trading away  
LakeGeorgeGiant : 10/16/2019 2:10 pm : link
that many first rounders is asinine. They have a lot of talent right now, but that situation can turn bad very quickly.
RE: RE: depends on your horizon  
giants#1 : 10/16/2019 2:10 pm : link
In comment 14630995 BillyM said:
Quote:
In comment 14630991 giants#1 said:


Quote:


Next 2-3 years? Rams

Next 5+ years? Giants

But a lot can change in 5 years, especially in the NFL.



From my seat, while it would be great to make a run this year, damn....I would be scared sh+tless of the thought of not only no first rounders for 5 years, but if they are relatively good, second rounders that are closer to low thirds. That is a scary proposition.


Again, for the long term I absolutely agree. Their depth is going to be destroyed and then they'll crash hard. But they're going for it all over the next 2-3 years (if they can even stretch their window that much), which may not be a bad idea given Gurley's knees and Donald entering his prime. Not to mention that few teams outside of Brady/BB have really had sustained success over a 5+ year window.
Gurley has an arthritic knee  
Stan in LA : 10/16/2019 2:11 pm : link
And will be a non-factor going forward.
RE: Gurley has an arthritic knee  
UConn4523 : 10/16/2019 2:21 pm : link
In comment 14631006 Stan in LA said:
Quote:
And will be a non-factor going forward.


Sooooo is he the only player on either roster? That's your earth shattering analysis of the OP's question?

You sir never disappoint.
Unless Rams wins Super Bowl  
George from PA : 10/16/2019 2:22 pm : link
I will take Giants....
I will also say  
BillyM : 10/16/2019 2:23 pm : link
When your only starting with late second round draft picks, you better get them right. The fail rate is exponentially higher in that range. If you end up failing two of the five years, now you are in essence starting in the late third round for half a decade.

Scary stuff. Takes a set to make that move, and if they get a ring, than nothing else matters. But if they stumble this year or next, could be a long road back.
you can always get draft capital back  
UConn4523 : 10/16/2019 2:24 pm : link
so that isn't off the table. I'm assuming some players will be dealt over the next few years, can't pay everyone. And good coaching makes up for a lot of personnel issues. I'd kill for a guy like McVay.
Goff seems to be a 1 read QB exposed by Little Bill  
Coach Red Beaulieu : 10/16/2019 2:30 pm : link
DJ8 already has demonstrated the freakish ability to go through 5 reads.
RE: RE: Gurley has an arthritic knee  
Mike from Ohio : 10/16/2019 2:34 pm : link
In comment 14631020 UConn4523 said:
Quote:
In comment 14631006 Stan in LA said:


Quote:


And will be a non-factor going forward.



Sooooo is he the only player on either roster? That's your earth shattering analysis of the OP's question?

You sir never disappoint.


For Stan that was actually pretty well thought out.
I'd rather have  
cjac : 10/16/2019 2:43 pm : link
first round picks in 2020 and 2021

I also never thought Goff had a huge upside, seems like he's peaked. And his IQ is in question. I'd rather have Jones at this point. He's not as good right now but the upside is higher IMO
RE: I'd rather have  
lecky : 10/16/2019 2:45 pm : link
In comment 14631047 cjac said:
Quote:
first round picks in 2020 and 2021

I also never thought Goff had a huge upside, seems like he's peaked. And his IQ is in question. I'd rather have Jones at this point. He's not as good right now but the upside is higher IMO


Coaching is such a huge part of this game. In football, I will always take the coach.
Easy to knock a team  
Sy'56 : 10/16/2019 2:51 pm : link
While they are down


But please do not forget what this team did in 2018 and 2017. LAR will be fine
RE: Gurley has an arthritic knee  
Greg from LI : 10/16/2019 2:58 pm : link
In comment 14631006 Stan in LA said:
Quote:
And will be a non-factor going forward.


As much of a non-factor as Tiger Woods in a major?
RE: Easy to knock a team  
BillyM : 10/16/2019 3:00 pm : link
In comment 14631057 Sy'56 said:
Quote:
While they are down


But please do not forget what this team did in 2018 and 2017. LAR will be fine


I agree, but you don't trade 5 first rounders for fine. Hence the hypothetical here. It's all or nothing, when you put that many chips in the middle.

We live in a world of short termism. Stock markets, social media, communications. Sports has become similar. Look at the NBA. Lord, does anyone build for long term success?

I'm not knocking the Rams at all. It's a gutsy move that could pay off. Kudos to them if it does. But if they just end up a playoff team the next few years, they are in for hard times thereafter.
RE: Easy to knock a team  
WillVAB : 10/16/2019 3:07 pm : link
In comment 14631057 Sy'56 said:
Quote:
While they are down


But please do not forget what this team did in 2018 and 2017. LAR will be fine


I donít know man, itís looking rough even for a WC at this point.
those 1sts are  
UConn4523 : 10/16/2019 3:08 pm : link
likely all mid to late picks and there's also the potential of them being busts. A big deal for sure but the trade off is yearly contention, who wouldn't want that?

The biggest factors in this equation are Goff and McVay and the latter is reason enough for me to pick the Rams.
The Rams made mistakes paying Goff and Gurley,  
Go Terps : 10/16/2019 3:13 pm : link
but they're still a much better coached and better run team than the Giants are. Not close.
Never been a fan of Goff  
ghost718 : 10/16/2019 3:22 pm : link
or McVay really,watching those two on the sideline reminds me of Rocky and Mugsy.
The Rams are in a bad spot  
AcesUp : 10/16/2019 3:29 pm : link
They have over half their cap invested in 5 players next year. They're still a playoff caliber football team this year but they're a Donald or Whitworth injury from that thing collapsing in on itself. Next year they will be even thinner as some of their recent FA reinforcements in Talib and Whitworth age out and they lose guys like Fowler to FA. Do they have any young developing talent at the bottom and middle of their roster to transition in? Gerald Everett and Greg Gaines? That's about all I can think of and that's because they don't have many of their own draft picks on their roster. They don't have many picks going forward either.

McVay is an excellent coach but he seems to be having difficulty adjusting to the way teams have countered the outside zone and an OL that has regressed FAST from a top unit to one of the league's spotiest. How are they going to fix that? They need to because Goff won't be able to perform otherwise. With some bad injury luck next year, I could very easily see them being the surprise team that is trending towards a Top 5 pick (for Jax). Like the 2017 Giants - a team with big names and nothing else behind them.
I think any GM would want  
kdog77 : 10/16/2019 4:30 pm : link
the first round picks and cap space, but it is harder to find good coaches let alone great HC like McVay.

Rams biggest mistake was extending Goff when they did not have to, but QB is a logical place to invest cap dollars. How are they going to keep Gurley, Cooks and Donald when all the other players on the team want to get paid too? Kupp and Ramsey will not be cheap extensions.

I don't like most of the contracts DG has offered to FAs like Ogletree who are JAGs, but he seems to be able to draft guys that can play relatively quickly. DG will need to figure out how to extend Engram, Barkley, Hernandez and Jones over next 3 years but I think it can be managed once the crap contracts have cleared the books. Finding play-makers on Defense will be a priority this off-season.
Going all in is not  
NINEster : 10/16/2019 6:27 pm : link
as terrible in a worst case scenario as it might sound.

Nothing is permanent in the NFL for better or worse.

If you're in that window, you take the risks and get it done. Worst case is you have another rebuild on your hand. But if you're in the game of trying to win a Lombardi, it's not a big deal.

The Harbaugh Niners in retrospect could have used an all out offseason probably after they lost that Super Bowl. If they did that, that probably would have been enough to have gotten the chip. 3 consecutive NFCs shows they were right there.

That offseason of 2015 is something I wouldn't wish on my worst enemy, all your best players retiring or departing in free agency. Worst part was that there was nothing to show for it.

So until you've got the Belichick system figured out, it should be an option for any team with decent playoff success.
The McVay/Goff storyline  
NINEster : 10/16/2019 6:37 pm : link
is interesting because we don't know what the reality is:

a) Is McVay struggling here?
b) Is McVay dumbing down his offense for Goff?

Could be a bit of both, but I imagine one of the two is the issue here.

Often when OCs get the blame for the offense, it might just be them protecting their QB (Kaepernick comes to mind, RG3, and even Wilson for a few years too).

Goff may not be the truth from a clutch QB standpoint, but I don't think he's as bad as anyone says he is.

McVay may understand offense a lot better than Fisher, but I think his style of offense lacks the diversity needed to carry a young QB.

We'll see what happens going forward. Already there's been 4 or 5 bad games for that team offensively.
Both contracts-Gurley's & Goff's-look  
SFGFNCGiantsFan : 10/16/2019 6:42 pm : link
awful @ the moment.
RE: The Rams made mistakes paying Goff and Gurley,  
Rory : 10/16/2019 7:30 pm : link
In comment 14631083 Go Terps said:
Quote:
but they're still a much better coached and better run team than the Giants are. Not close.


um what?
RE: RE: The Rams made mistakes paying Goff and Gurley,  
Go Terps : 10/16/2019 7:35 pm : link
In comment 14631285 Rory said:
Quote:
In comment 14631083 Go Terps said:


Quote:


but they're still a much better coached and better run team than the Giants are. Not close.



um what?


I didn't think that was a controversial statement. The Rams are coming off two playoff appearances and a Super Bowl appearance. They won 24 games the last two years; the Giants won 8. Not in the same ballpark.

However, one thing they have in common is the high draft investment in a QB and RB. Both Goff and Gurley were high draft picks, and the Rams paid them. Both contracts now look like horrendous mistakes, and should be foremost in our minds when it comes time for the Giants to make decisions on Jones and Barkley.
McVay May have a great offensive mind  
LauderdaleMatty : 10/16/2019 8:20 pm : link
But great HC? They are loaded on defense have a future HOF type DT, loaded DL and tons of talent all over there and they seriously underperform.

12th in yards and 24th in points. And letís not pretend he has any input there so even if you want to blame Phillips I bet the Giants D would be a a lot better w Phillips than Betcher.

Think the Rams window is closing fast. And the McVay genius label might sane as well if Gurley is as cooked as he seems
Wane. It sane  
LauderdaleMatty : 10/16/2019 8:23 pm : link
Autocorrect ugh
RE: RE: The Rams made mistakes paying Goff and Gurley,  
NikkiMac : 10/17/2019 10:25 am : link
In comment 14631285 Rory said:
Quote:
In comment 14631083 Go Terps said:


Quote:


but they're still a much better coached and better run team than the Giants are. Not close.



um what?


The Rams have notoriously bungled their first round draft choices from trades and now have 5 years without them and theyíre a better run organization than the giants ....The Rams donít even come close to the organizational structure of the Giants with all due respect I highly disagree
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