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NFT: 10/17 Knicks Talk: The Battle for PG

LawrenceTaylor56 : 10/17/2019 6:00 am
Hawks: 100
Knicks: 96


Once again, I watch a Knicks game in hopes I see good ball movement, crisp passes, guys cutting, finding the open man. Our offense has no desire to find the advantage. Instead, Knicks and Fizdale seem content on leaning back onto the bad habit of ISO-ball bailing us out.

The defense was actually not that bad this game.

Couple Notes

David Fizdale: Worst starting lineup we could have possibly did tonight. Portis, Randle and Morris as our starting front court should never see another minute again this season. Still questionable X's and O's coach. Another night giving RJ another 40 minute game in preseason. Much like Knox last year, expect him to run RJ into the ground by January.

Frank Ntilikina: 1-4 2 Points, 3 rebounds, 3 assists. You'd almost have to be a basketball purist to appreciate what he does defensively. He ate Trae Youngs lunch quite a few times, altering his shot with his length, forcing him to pass out of a few easy buckets he was hitting earlier, adding a couple nice blocks to his night. He is an average defender with the ability to show glimpses of above average defending. I think right now he's at his floor. Offensively, he's still a complete black hole if you're looking for points. He moves the ball nice and tries to set someone up with a shot. Unfortunately, he plays in an offense that doesn't suit his style. He's not ISO Frank. He should be the starting PG. IMO

Dennis Smith JR:First game back after sitting out previously with a lower back injury. First observation? He's rusty. Picked up two quick fouls in the opening minutest that sent him to the bench. Not a great shooting night for him either. 1-5 for 4 points.

Julius Randle: So far his best night as a Knick. Aside from two step back jumpers (Yes, two..wtf), he finished with 20 points, 8 rebounds, 2 assists, 2 blocks. His defense is still not worth talking about.

RJ Barrett: 4-14, 12 points, 7 rebounds, 6 assists, 2 steals and a block. It's going to be an up and down year in regards with his game to game efficiency. If Fizdale can tap into his inner-coaching and somehow teach RJ to reign it in a bit on nights he isn't feeling it, then he could be special this year. He's a plus playmaker, can bully his way into the paint, and actually finish. He did miss quite a few easy layups though. I'm chalking that up to youth. The flashes are there. You can see it. Even had a nice game defensively.

Kevin Knox: He looks like he's ready to be the first of our young guys to make the big jump this year. He looks much more fluid and confident. He moves the ball well, and stretches the floor. His shot looks good. He should be getting more minutes per game this season.

Last thoughts: This team is a 25-30 win team. They aren't well coached, or even coached it seems. I don't think Fizdale is the guy who can tap into and get the best out of every player. This team better find a way to keep it close, because we don't have the shooting to come back from double digits night in and night out. Speaking of keeping it close, I don't think we have one guy on our roster who I would trust to take the final shot.

DNP Coaches Decision for Payton, Dotson and Trier tonight.

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Frank  
Reeses Pieces : 10/17/2019 6:18 am : link
Does the best job running this team and he is committed to defense. I feel Fiz, at the end of the day, doesn’t want to believe it. He still has a poor jump shot. Fiz also allows too much iso ball and doesn’t run enough offense. That hammered the Knicks late with ill advised 3s with no ball movement. It’s going to be a long season....again.
watching five guys stand in an arc around the  
Peter from NH (formerly CT) : 10/17/2019 6:46 am : link
3 pt line for most of the game does nothing for me as an offense. The difference between Atlanta's flow and the Knicks was ridiculous. Frank made a big difference in the latter stretches of the game.
Morris is a ball movement killer  
shyster : 10/17/2019 7:03 am : link
NBA keeps a stat called assist percentage, which is the percentage of your teammates' baskets that you assist on while you are on the floor.

Morris's 6.1% ranked him 412 out of 477 players who saw any time on the court last season.

No doubt the man has skills but I already do not enjoy watching him play.
Im starting to think Fiz is the wrong guy  
idiotsavant : 10/17/2019 7:16 am : link
With so many young players you need a fundamentals + generalist type, can whereas he seems like the one for when the cake is already baked but you need buy in from the group.
you know it is funny  
nygiants16 : 10/17/2019 7:18 am : link
everyone is sayinf how there was no ball movement and all iso and hawks had better ball movement..

both teams had 22 assists, knicks 22 assists on 32 made shots..

and i know we dont see it much anymore but post ups are not isos
Of the 3 PGs,Frank is a multiguard,better as the off guard than as  
TheMick7 : 10/17/2019 7:58 am : link
running the point. DSJ is a shooting guard, who plays at the PG position. The only true PG is Payton,someone who can distribute the ball & run an offense, getting his points within the framework of that offense. I think the Knicks want DSJ to be the PG but I have my doubts he can effectively run an offense.
The offense looks like a complete mess.  
Heisenberg : 10/17/2019 8:08 am : link
I haven't seen anything since fiz has been here that gives me encouragement. He's easy to listen to in postgames and the players seem to like him but he needs to show that he can get a team to play organized basketball and they looked bad last night. That play for Ellington to get a 3 was horrendous.

Frank was awesome on D. Trae Young was cooking the folks on him before Frank came in and put him in his pocket. I like the Frank-RJ pairing with the ball in RJ's hands. Dennis Smith had some decent moments defensively but is a bad PnR defender. He's gonna need to become a really efficient scorer to be a net plus in most games.

With experience and some respect from the refs, RJ is gonna be tough getting to the rack and the line. Hopefully the shot starts to fall.
How did trae young cook last night?  
nygiants16 : 10/17/2019 8:11 am : link
he was 7 for 19 with 21 points, how is that cooking?

if he was knick everyone here would be calling him a chucker, their entire offense is him dribbling around screens and either shooting or passing it the open 3 point shooter..
and i hate to tell people this  
nygiants16 : 10/17/2019 8:14 am : link
but get used to the post ups, they are a big team, they are going to post people up and play bully ball...
I don't think Trae  
LawrenceTaylor56 : 10/17/2019 8:25 am : link
was so much cooking in regards to shooting wise. I think he meant by the Hawks offense looked much more fluid and cohesive before Frank came in and started disrupting the flow. Frank did a great job last night defensively.
RE: and i hate to tell people this  
LawrenceTaylor56 : 10/17/2019 8:26 am : link
In comment 14631430 nygiants16 said:
Quote:
but get used to the post ups, they are a big team, they are going to post people up and play bully ball...


Bully ball doesn't win enough in todays NBA. That's the problem.
RE: How did trae young cook last night?  
Heisenberg : 10/17/2019 8:31 am : link
In comment 14631429 nygiants16 said:
Quote:
he was 7 for 19 with 21 points, how is that cooking?

if he was knick everyone here would be calling him a chucker, their entire offense is him dribbling around screens and either shooting or passing it the open 3 point shooter..


Did you watch the game? He notably put Ellington on skates for the buzzer beater 3 and got away from Smith on the PnR at will. 23 pts, 9 Ast. He was consistently beating the knicks on the PnR and either getting shots for himself or his teammates. He's a bad defensive player but our guards couldn't quite take advantage last night - that will be a long term issue for the Hawks tho.
Knicks  
TyreeHelmet : 10/17/2019 8:36 am : link
I disagree that Frank is an average defender. Although I think his defense can be overrated at times- especially last year- Frank is a good nba defender. He was excellent against Young last night and a major reason they got back in that game. Just look at how DSJ was getting torched.

And 16 is right- get ready for a ton of Randle and Morris postups this year.

This team is missing a good shooter and good penetrator. I think the offense will struggle because of that.

Last thing- Mitch played well last night. And I really hope he doesn’t take a backseat this year. No one wants to hear this but this team is going to be bad again this year and the focus should be on developing RJ, Mitch, Knox and Frank. I really don’t want him sacrificing minutes for vets.
RE: RE: How did trae young cook last night?  
nygiants16 : 10/17/2019 8:36 am : link
In comment 14631447 Heisenberg said:
Quote:
In comment 14631429 nygiants16 said:


Quote:


he was 7 for 19 with 21 points, how is that cooking?

if he was knick everyone here would be calling him a chucker, their entire offense is him dribbling around screens and either shooting or passing it the open 3 point shooter..



Did you watch the game? He notably put Ellington on skates for the buzzer beater 3 and got away from Smith on the PnR at will. 23 pts, 9 Ast. He was consistently beating the knicks on the PnR and either getting shots for himself or his teammates. He's a bad defensive player but our guards couldn't quite take advantage last night - that will be a long term issue for the Hawks tho.


he was 7 for 19..

and he better have 9 assists, the ball is in his hands the entire game, this is like westbrook racking up assists, he got his assists put of sheer volume..

And i like trae young but their offense is him dribbling around until the defense either collapses or he shoots
RE: Knicks  
nygiants16 : 10/17/2019 8:37 am : link
In comment 14631449 TyreeHelmet said:
Quote:
I disagree that Frank is an average defender. Although I think his defense can be overrated at times- especially last year- Frank is a good nba defender. He was excellent against Young last night and a major reason they got back in that game. Just look at how DSJ was getting torched.

And 16 is right- get ready for a ton of Randle and Morris postups this year.

This team is missing a good shooter and good penetrator. I think the offense will struggle because of that.

Last thing- Mitch played well last night. And I really hope he doesn’t take a backseat this year. No one wants to hear this but this team is going to be bad again this year and the focus should be on developing RJ, Mitch, Knox and Frank. I really don’t want him sacrificing minutes for vets.


he cant stay on the floor, he seems to control his fouls when he comes off the bench..
my observations  
Pep22 : 10/17/2019 8:53 am : link
The good:

Knox seems to improved greatly. Much stronger. Seems to have a better understanding of shot selection. Reminds me a lot of early Tobias Harris.

Randle is as advertised Somewhat of a throwback player, but still pretty good.

Same goes for Morris although he definitely has an inflated opinion of his abilities.

RJB will have some struggles, but that is one mature, competitive player.



Franks defense.

Ellington's shooting.

The bad:

DSJ just has no feel for the game. Its almost like he took all that athletic ability and chose the wrong path; like he should have been an NFL WR.

Franks offense.

Ellington - anothing but shooting.
They are an ugly, pathetic excuse for a team.  
yatqb : 10/17/2019 8:58 am : link
And I agree about Fizdale; they don’t play team ball at all; no cohesion whatsoever.
RE: They are an ugly, pathetic excuse for a team.  
nygiants16 : 10/17/2019 9:09 am : link
In comment 14631467 yatqb said:
Quote:
And I agree about Fizdale; they don’t play team ball at all; no cohesion whatsoever.


who had more cohesion last night?
Incongruity  
Jim in Fairfax : 10/17/2019 9:13 am : link

”Much like Knox last year, expect him to run RJ into the ground by January. ”

“Kevin Knox: ....He should be getting more minutes per game this season.”
RE: They are an ugly, pathetic excuse for a team.  
nygiants16 : 10/17/2019 9:17 am : link
In comment 14631467 yatqb said:
Quote:
And I agree about Fizdale; they don’t play team ball at all; no cohesion whatsoever.


your team is big, of course you are going to run post ups
My big take away from the preseason thus far  
Mike in NJ : 10/17/2019 9:29 am : link
Is that RJ Barrett should be the primary ball handler. He looks really good as a facilitator, was looking to set up his teammates and seemed to play more under control when he was the one bringing the ball up the court.

There has been a lot of back and forth over the last couple of years about whether or not Frankie is a PG, and Barrett taking the creator role helps to make up for a lot of Frank’s deficiencies on offense, and allows him to focus on defense.

I’ve also really liked Barrett’s effort on D. He definitely still has deficiencies and a lot to learn on that end before he’s a “good” defender, but he shows a willingness and definitely has the potential to be above average on that side of the floor.

Bradley Beal  
TyreeHelmet : 10/17/2019 9:31 am : link
Signs 2 year extension and won't be a free agent until 2022 or 2023. From Yahoo:

What Beal loses with this extension:

A chance to hit 2021 free agency, when his projected max starting salary would’ve been $38 million
A chance to trigger super-max eligibility by making an All-NBA team this season or next, which would’ve increased his max salary in 2021-22 to $44 million
The ability to get traded this season

What Beal gains with this extension:

A guaranteed $71,764,428
RE: My big take away from the preseason thus far  
Justlurking : 10/17/2019 9:35 am : link
In comment 14631489 Mike in NJ said:
Quote:
Is that RJ Barrett should be the primary ball handler. He looks really good as a facilitator, was looking to set up his teammates and seemed to play more under control when he was the one bringing the ball up the court.

There has been a lot of back and forth over the last couple of years about whether or not Frankie is a PG, and Barrett taking the creator role helps to make up for a lot of Frank’s deficiencies on offense, and allows him to focus on defense.

I’ve also really liked Barrett’s effort on D. He definitely still has deficiencies and a lot to learn on that end before he’s a “good” defender, but he shows a willingness and definitely has the potential to be above average on that side of the floor.


This was my takeaway as well. RJB looks like a real player. Needs to get some muscle and they may have something. They need a few real shooters is my biggest negative. No one is a legit outside presence.
RE: Incongruity  
LawrenceTaylor56 : 10/17/2019 10:00 am : link
In comment 14631476 Jim in Fairfax said:
Quote:

”Much like Knox last year, expect him to run RJ into the ground by January. ”

“Kevin Knox: ....He should be getting more minutes per game this season.”


Per game on average I should have meant. He only got 20 yesterday. Around 28-30 is what he should be getting this year.
RE: RE: My big take away from the preseason thus far  
TyreeHelmet : 10/17/2019 10:03 am : link
In comment 14631493 Justlurking said:
Quote:
In comment 14631489 Mike in NJ said:


Quote:


Is that RJ Barrett should be the primary ball handler. He looks really good as a facilitator, was looking to set up his teammates and seemed to play more under control when he was the one bringing the ball up the court.

There has been a lot of back and forth over the last couple of years about whether or not Frankie is a PG, and Barrett taking the creator role helps to make up for a lot of Frank’s deficiencies on offense, and allows him to focus on defense.

I’ve also really liked Barrett’s effort on D. He definitely still has deficiencies and a lot to learn on that end before he’s a “good” defender, but he shows a willingness and definitely has the potential to be above average on that side of the floor.




This was my takeaway as well. RJB looks like a real player. Needs to get some muscle and they may have something. They need a few real shooters is my biggest negative. No one is a legit outside presence.


Was also impressed with Barrett last night too. Would love to see Frank and Dot develop into those 3 and D shooters to spread the floor.

I would also be looking to trade Morris or one of the bigs for a wing shooter the first they are eligible to be traded.
I agree with RJ in a playmaker role.  
bceagle05 : 10/17/2019 10:04 am : link
He seems to have the chops for it, and the pick n roll game allows him to get downhill toward the basket, which is his strength right now. He'll get lost off the ball, and his poor shooting will be exposed even more. If the Knicks are as strong in player development as they tell us they are, they'll play to RJ's strengths and get his career off to a good start.
Seems like the plan right now  
nygiants16 : 10/17/2019 10:10 am : link
is run the offense through randle with morris as the secondary guy..

Once one of those guys come off the court rj gets more touches and is able to create..
.  
DanMetroMan : 10/17/2019 10:42 am : link

Adrian Wojnarowski
@wojespn
·
2h
Washington Wizards All-Star Bradley Beal has agreed to extend his deal for two years on a $72M maximum contract, agent Mark Bartelstein of
@PrioritySports
tells ESPN. Deal includes player option for 2022-23. Total value: 4-years, nearly $130M. Story:
According to the Post, Pistons may have interest in both Ntilikina  
Anakim : 10/17/2019 10:46 am : link
and Dotson. They may have sent former Knick Malik Rose to scout Frank, probably to be a friend to Sekou.

Maybe reunite the Morris Twins?
Why  
DanMetroMan : 10/17/2019 10:54 am : link
would the Knicks want Markieff Morris? No thanks.
I was hoping Beal would find his way to a better team.  
bceagle05 : 10/17/2019 10:57 am : link
Or better yet, the Knicks. He's one of my favorite players in the league - I'd love to see him flourish with some better talent around him.
This makes sense to me  
Pep22 : 10/17/2019 11:05 am : link
Ntlikina + Dotson

for

Kennard + Frazier
Markieff Morris  
DanMetroMan : 10/17/2019 11:06 am : link
is 30, a FA after the season and almost certainly would lead to more wins this season than Frank. No shot at you Anak but what would be the thought process there?
Knicks  
DanMetroMan : 10/17/2019 11:10 am : link
were very high on Kennard but I'd be very surprised if the Pistons moved him after Casey really talking him up as a key piece of the second unit.
if knicks trade frank  
nygiants16 : 10/17/2019 11:10 am : link
it has to be for a shooter, knicks need someone to consistently spread the floor for rj, randle and morris
This is a crazy thought  
nygiants16 : 10/17/2019 11:14 am : link
but why do the knicks have to start smith, frank or payton?

the ball is going to be run through randle and morris, why not start ellington next to barrett?

Barrett can create more and you add a shooter to the starting lineup..

Bench: smith, frank, knox, portis, gibson..

If frank could show a consistent jumper it would be a no brainer to start him
.  
DanMetroMan : 10/17/2019 11:15 am : link

Alan Hahn
@alanhahn
·
4m
And 0% of GMs think RJ Barrett will contend for Rookie of the Year, or be one of the best players from this draft class in five years.
RE: Markieff Morris  
Anakim : 10/17/2019 11:19 am : link
In comment 14631550 DanMetroMan said:
Quote:
is 30, a FA after the season and almost certainly would lead to more wins this season than Frank. No shot at you Anak but what would be the thought process there?


None. I was just wondering if they would reunite the twins
RE: .  
Anakim : 10/17/2019 11:20 am : link
In comment 14631555 DanMetroMan said:
Quote:

Alan Hahn
@alanhahn
·
4m
And 0% of GMs think RJ Barrett will contend for Rookie of the Year, or be one of the best players from this draft class in five years.


Such horseshit. And weren't these experts saying that Barrett had better long-term potential than Zion?


Prove 'em wrong, RJ
I'm very curious to see how Garland performs in Cleveland.  
bceagle05 : 10/17/2019 11:25 am : link
I like RJ, but I was quietly hoping the Knicks would make Garland the surprise pick. I think he's tailor-made for today's NBA.
RE: RE: .  
nygiants16 : 10/17/2019 11:32 am : link
In comment 14631563 Anakim said:
Quote:
In comment 14631555 DanMetroMan said:


Quote:



Alan Hahn
@alanhahn
·
4m
And 0% of GMs think RJ Barrett will contend for Rookie of the Year, or be one of the best players from this draft class in five years.



Such horseshit. And weren't these experts saying that Barrett had better long-term potential than Zion?


Prove 'em wrong, RJ


What are you new? once a player becomes a knick he sucks, once he leaves he is awesome..
Reddish didn’t look great last night. Hunter looked smooth and has a  
Jim in Hoboken : 10/17/2019 11:49 am : link
nice touch. We are all shocked by how unathletic Barrett looks, but he can still be a good player, prob not elite though.

The Knicks missed big by not getting the top 2 pick, fuck the NBA.
RE: Reddish didn’t look great last night. Hunter looked smooth and has a  
nygiants16 : 10/17/2019 11:50 am : link
In comment 14631593 Jim in Hoboken said:
Quote:
nice touch. We are all shocked by how unathletic Barrett looks, but he can still be a good player, prob not elite though.

The Knicks missed big by not getting the top 2 pick, fuck the NBA.


Barrett looks unathletic?
He certainly lacks explosion in his game  
Greg from LI : 10/17/2019 11:55 am : link
He's pretty smooth and strong, but not particularly quick.

DeAndre Hunter did indeed look very good, at least when ballhog Trae Young deigned to pass to him.
I agree that he looks  
Pep22 : 10/17/2019 12:01 pm : link
average athletically but I like the following:

-high end competitiveness
-nothing seems too big for him
-size/strength
-seems to be doing well defensively
-"lefty-ness" (he's got a lot of Walter Berry like funky release points in the paint that drive defenders crazy)

Obviously the shooting improvement will be critical.
Based on first impression  
bceagle05 : 10/17/2019 12:11 pm : link
I like RJ more than I thought I would. I think NBA spacing will help him navigate defenses, and he just competes hard. Sounds basic, but the Knicks have lacked that, especially from their young players. Losing is gonna bother RJ, and he'll work his ass off even more because of it. Guys like that are easy to root for.
Knicks  
Phil in LA : 10/17/2019 12:15 pm : link
signed Zak Irvin.
Sounds like buddy hield is going to ask for a trade  
nygiants16 : 10/17/2019 12:17 pm : link
..
RE: Based on first impression  
Pep22 : 10/17/2019 12:22 pm : link
In comment 14631609 bceagle05 said:
Quote:
I like RJ more than I thought I would. I think NBA spacing will help him navigate defenses, and he just competes hard. Sounds basic, but the Knicks have lacked that, especially from their young players. Losing is gonna bother RJ, and he'll work his ass off even more because of it. Guys like that are easy to root for.


Well said. Sure there has been a lack of talent (starting guys like Calderon, Mudiay etc.) but the toxin in the Knicks system is that too many guys over the years play for "ME" and not for "WE". Marbury, Curry, Hardaway, Anthony etc. -- consumate loser players.
RE: Knicks  
Anakim : 10/17/2019 12:26 pm : link
In comment 14631615 Phil in LA said:
Quote:
signed Zak Irvin.


We want Jontay!
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