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NFT: 10/17 Knicks Talk: The Battle for PG

LawrenceTaylor56 : 10/17/2019 6:00 am
Hawks: 100
Knicks: 96


Once again, I watch a Knicks game in hopes I see good ball movement, crisp passes, guys cutting, finding the open man. Our offense has no desire to find the advantage. Instead, Knicks and Fizdale seem content on leaning back onto the bad habit of ISO-ball bailing us out.

The defense was actually not that bad this game.

Couple Notes

David Fizdale: Worst starting lineup we could have possibly did tonight. Portis, Randle and Morris as our starting front court should never see another minute again this season. Still questionable X's and O's coach. Another night giving RJ another 40 minute game in preseason. Much like Knox last year, expect him to run RJ into the ground by January.

Frank Ntilikina: 1-4 2 Points, 3 rebounds, 3 assists. You'd almost have to be a basketball purist to appreciate what he does defensively. He ate Trae Youngs lunch quite a few times, altering his shot with his length, forcing him to pass out of a few easy buckets he was hitting earlier, adding a couple nice blocks to his night. He is an average defender with the ability to show glimpses of above average defending. I think right now he's at his floor. Offensively, he's still a complete black hole if you're looking for points. He moves the ball nice and tries to set someone up with a shot. Unfortunately, he plays in an offense that doesn't suit his style. He's not ISO Frank. He should be the starting PG. IMO

Dennis Smith JR:First game back after sitting out previously with a lower back injury. First observation? He's rusty. Picked up two quick fouls in the opening minutest that sent him to the bench. Not a great shooting night for him either. 1-5 for 4 points.

Julius Randle: So far his best night as a Knick. Aside from two step back jumpers (Yes, two..wtf), he finished with 20 points, 8 rebounds, 2 assists, 2 blocks. His defense is still not worth talking about.

RJ Barrett: 4-14, 12 points, 7 rebounds, 6 assists, 2 steals and a block. It's going to be an up and down year in regards with his game to game efficiency. If Fizdale can tap into his inner-coaching and somehow teach RJ to reign it in a bit on nights he isn't feeling it, then he could be special this year. He's a plus playmaker, can bully his way into the paint, and actually finish. He did miss quite a few easy layups though. I'm chalking that up to youth. The flashes are there. You can see it. Even had a nice game defensively.

Kevin Knox: He looks like he's ready to be the first of our young guys to make the big jump this year. He looks much more fluid and confident. He moves the ball well, and stretches the floor. His shot looks good. He should be getting more minutes per game this season.

Last thoughts: This team is a 25-30 win team. They aren't well coached, or even coached it seems. I don't think Fizdale is the guy who can tap into and get the best out of every player. This team better find a way to keep it close, because we don't have the shooting to come back from double digits night in and night out. Speaking of keeping it close, I don't think we have one guy on our roster who I would trust to take the final shot.

DNP Coaches Decision for Payton, Dotson and Trier tonight.

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Barrett  
LawrenceTaylor56 : 10/17/2019 12:31 pm : link
is unathletic? Ummmm ..okay? He might have that elite burst that few have. But his body control and awareness at his age is damn near elite. Again, he's young.

And Hunter looks like a poor mans Kawhi.
For  
DanMetroMan : 10/17/2019 12:42 pm : link
a wing, Barrett does NOT have "elite burst". Very mature body, high IQ but vs. the other "beast" 2/3's he's just not a monster pure run/jump/quicks guy.
RE: Barrett  
LawrenceTaylor56 : 10/17/2019 12:47 pm : link
In comment 14631629 LawrenceTaylor56 said:
Quote:
is unathletic? Ummmm ..okay? He might have that elite burst that few have. But his body control and awareness at his age is damn near elite. Again, he's young.

And Hunter looks like a poor mans Kawhi.


He might NOT have. Fixed.
Dan  
Phil in LA : 10/17/2019 1:01 pm : link
did you ever see Earl Monroe?
RE: Dan  
DanMetroMan : 10/17/2019 1:08 pm : link
In comment 14631643 Phil in LA said:
Quote:
did you ever see Earl Monroe?


Phil,
Do you believe RJ Barrett has "elite burst that few have"? I find that hard to believe.
.  
DanMetroMan : 10/17/2019 1:13 pm : link
"Born without great jumping ability, height and speed, Earl Monroe adapted his game on a daily basis to allow himself to succeed. He created shots and moves in a so called “playground” style that changed the way people play the game of basketball"

So my response to that comment remains. Earl Monroe was an all-time great. He did not have elite "burst", nor does Barrett.
RE: RE: Dan  
LawrenceTaylor56 : 10/17/2019 1:15 pm : link
In comment 14631647 DanMetroMan said:
Quote:
In comment 14631643 Phil in LA said:


Quote:


did you ever see Earl Monroe?



Phil,
Do you believe RJ Barrett has "elite burst that few have"? I find that hard to believe.


Dan,

I corrected myself. I meant to say RJ Barrett does not have elite burst that few have. But he does have.....
.  
Del Shofner : 10/17/2019 1:17 pm : link
slightly off topic, but an interesting read on Carmelo Anthony's last days in the NBA

Melo - ( New Window )
Dan  
Phil in LA : 10/17/2019 1:21 pm : link
There’s a long history of great scorers who lack MJ burst. What is fascinating about RJ is his spatial understanding, which helps him get to the hole as well as rack up assists and rebounds, while also checking in with steals and blocks. I think he will be a top 10 player from this draft and a big scorer who also checks other boxes. I don’t need him to win the slam dunk contest.
RE: Dan  
DanMetroMan : 10/17/2019 1:23 pm : link
In comment 14631662 Phil in LA said:
Quote:
There’s a long history of great scorers who lack MJ burst. What is fascinating about RJ is his spatial understanding, which helps him get to the hole as well as rack up assists and rebounds, while also checking in with steals and blocks. I think he will be a top 10 player from this draft and a big scorer who also checks other boxes. I don’t need him to win the slam dunk contest.



But that has absolutely nothing to do with the question of him being a "special" run/jump athlete. He's not. Plenty of good players aren't but he's clearly not a special run/jump athlete at the 2/3 spot.
could see RJ  
hitdog42 : 10/17/2019 1:24 pm : link
having a tyreke evans type rookie year
Dan we agree he’s not MJ  
Phil in LA : 10/17/2019 1:27 pm : link
But he’s also not Roy Marble, Darnell Hillman, Dwayne Scales or the scores and scores of run/jump guys who got drafted over players.
RE: could see RJ  
Pep22 : 10/17/2019 1:32 pm : link
In comment 14631667 hitdog42 said:
Quote:
having a tyreke evans type rookie year


Nice comparison. Never seen that one before.
RE: Dan we agree he’s not MJ  
Pep22 : 10/17/2019 1:35 pm : link
In comment 14631671 Phil in LA said:
Quote:
But he’s also not Roy Marble, Darnell Hillman, Dwayne Scales or the scores and scores of run/jump guys who got drafted over players.


I don't think he is being knocked. I think the consensus is that he's a solid/average athlete that seems to have elite intangibles, a body of a 25 year old NBA vet, pleasantly surprising play-making and defensive skills.
RE: RE: Dan we agree he’s not MJ  
nygiants16 : 10/17/2019 1:37 pm : link
In comment 14631682 Pep22 said:
Quote:
In comment 14631671 Phil in LA said:


Quote:


But he’s also not Roy Marble, Darnell Hillman, Dwayne Scales or the scores and scores of run/jump guys who got drafted over players.



I don't think he is being knocked. I think the consensus is that he's a solid/average athlete that seems to have elite intangibles, a body of a 25 year old NBA vet, pleasantly surprising play-making and defensive skills.


someone just said he will not be an elite player because he is unathletic
Pistons  
TyreeHelmet : 10/17/2019 1:38 pm : link
If the knicks trade Frank and Dotson for Markieff Morris I'm done with this team...

And RJ is not a special explosive athlete in the NBA. That is pretty clear. Doesn't mean he can't become a good or even great player. But that is simply true and isn't going to change.
RE: Pistons  
DanMetroMan : 10/17/2019 1:42 pm : link
In comment 14631687 TyreeHelmet said:
Quote:
If the knicks trade Frank and Dotson for Markieff Morris I'm done with this team...

And RJ is not a special explosive athlete in the NBA. That is pretty clear. Doesn't mean he can't become a good or even great player. But that is simply true and isn't going to change.


There is no chance they do this. Doesn't make sense on ANY level. In fact, I challenge someone to make a case for it lol
for rj to become an elite player  
nygiants16 : 10/17/2019 1:57 pm : link
because he is not an elite athlete, he has to knock down the open 3 and learn to shoot off the dribble consistently..
There's no root to the Markieff rumor  
Anakim : 10/17/2019 2:02 pm : link
I just speculated because we have one Morris twin and they have the other.
regarding Fizdale, the lineup, etc.  
81_Great_Dane : 10/17/2019 2:02 pm : link
I think last night's game was about getting a look at the guys whose roles for the beginning of the season aren't set. The point guards, for example.

These games aren't really about wins, especially with what amounts to a new roster. So I give him a pass on some of that.

As for his schemes, I can't tell at this point. Maybe later in the season. I think he was hired to develop the young guys. At some point, the coach won't be expected to be a tutor; he'll be expected to win games. Fizdale may not be the guy for that. We'll see.
RE: This makes sense to me  
Anakim : 10/17/2019 2:04 pm : link
In comment 14631548 Pep22 said:
Quote:
Ntlikina + Dotson

for

Kennard + Frazier


Decent proposal


Speaking of which, Detroit has drafted pretty poorly the last few years. Stanley Johnson, Luke Kennard, Henry Ellenson...
RJ  
Carl in CT : 10/17/2019 2:04 pm : link
Would be great if he was a big man. Has super skills are the basket with both hands and I feel will be a 8 rebound a game guard (exceptional) that being said with all that skill a 50 year old has a better outside shooting eye than he does. In regards to Frank (when I said he deserved to start before his pretty good 4th last night) I was expecting to get crucified. Kid plays hard. Problem is folks we can’t have a PG and a SG on the floor at the same time who can’t shoot. You can get away with one but not both. UGH.
RE: RE: This makes sense to me  
DanMetroMan : 10/17/2019 2:10 pm : link
In comment 14631722 Anakim said:
Quote:
In comment 14631548 Pep22 said:


Quote:


Ntlikina + Dotson

for

Kennard + Frazier



Decent proposal


Speaking of which, Detroit has drafted pretty poorly the last few years. Stanley Johnson, Luke Kennard, Henry Ellenson...


Anak,
Considering Kennard went 12th and is only 23 he's more of a hit than a miss. Career .85 WS/48, career 40% from 3. I suspect he's on his way to a long and productive NBA career with his skill set.
Maybe they develop faster  
idiotsavant : 10/17/2019 2:12 pm : link
Within lineups that make sense is all I'm suggesting
RE: RE: RE: This makes sense to me  
Anakim : 10/17/2019 2:12 pm : link
In comment 14631734 DanMetroMan said:
Quote:
In comment 14631722 Anakim said:


Quote:


In comment 14631548 Pep22 said:


Quote:


Ntlikina + Dotson

for

Kennard + Frazier



Decent proposal


Speaking of which, Detroit has drafted pretty poorly the last few years. Stanley Johnson, Luke Kennard, Henry Ellenson...



Anak,
Considering Kennard went 12th and is only 23 he's more of a hit than a miss. Career .85 WS/48, career 40% from 3. I suspect he's on his way to a long and productive NBA career with his skill set.



Isn't he coming off the bench? I thought Bruce Brown (who blows also) is starting at the 2 for them.
It's pre season but I hate most of what Fizdale is doing  
Torrag : 10/17/2019 2:14 pm : link
Both with the lineup and playstyle.
RE: It's pre season but I hate most of what Fizdale is doing  
nygiants16 : 10/17/2019 2:15 pm : link
In comment 14631740 Torrag said:
Quote:
Both with the lineup and playstyle.


ok so what style would you play with this roster? what lineups would you use?
RE: RE: This makes sense to me  
Pep22 : 10/17/2019 2:15 pm : link
In comment 14631722 Anakim said:
Quote:
In comment 14631548 Pep22 said:


Quote:


Ntlikina + Dotson

for

Kennard + Frazier



Decent proposal


Speaking of which, Detroit has drafted pretty poorly the last few years. Stanley Johnson, Luke Kennard, Henry Ellenson...


Wow, yeah that's a bad list. btw, did you see what Nick Nurse said about Stanley Johnson? He roasted him for being lazy, ill-prepared etc.
people who complain about iso  
nygiants16 : 10/17/2019 2:16 pm : link
do you watch the rest of the nba? everyone runs a ton of iso
RE: regarding Fizdale, the lineup, etc.  
shockeyisthebest8056 : 10/17/2019 2:17 pm : link
In comment 14631720 81_Great_Dane said:
Quote:
I think last night's game was about getting a look at the guys whose roles for the beginning of the season aren't set. The point guards, for example.

These games aren't really about wins, especially with what amounts to a new roster. So I give him a pass on some of that.


Kind of sad some people can't recognize that preseason games can be used for this purpose.
oh come the fuck on  
Greg from LI : 10/17/2019 2:17 pm : link
TWO Dookies on the team? One wasn't bad enough? Christ
He  
DanMetroMan : 10/17/2019 2:17 pm : link
is coming off the bench. But he went 12th, in that spot a good shooter with a WS/48 of .85 going into his age 23 season isn't a bad outcome. The next 5 picks Mitchell (stud that a ton of teams goofed on), Adebayo, Justin Jackson, Justin Patton.
RE: people who complain about iso  
LawrenceTaylor56 : 10/17/2019 2:17 pm : link
In comment 14631743 nygiants16 said:
Quote:
do you watch the rest of the nba? everyone runs a ton of iso


Yeah, because they have the players who can do that consistently. The Knicks need an offense. Stop comparing us to the rest of the NBA. We're not.
RE: RE: RE: This makes sense to me  
DanMetroMan : 10/17/2019 2:19 pm : link
In comment 14631742 Pep22 said:
Quote:
In comment 14631722 Anakim said:


Quote:


In comment 14631548 Pep22 said:


Quote:


Ntlikina + Dotson

for

Kennard + Frazier



Decent proposal


Speaking of which, Detroit has drafted pretty poorly the last few years. Stanley Johnson, Luke Kennard, Henry Ellenson...



Wow, yeah that's a bad list. btw, did you see what Nick Nurse said about Stanley Johnson? He roasted him for being lazy, ill-prepared etc.


Stanimal has been a total bust but it sounds like coach speak trying to light a fire under the asses of the new young newbies


"When TSN’s Josh Lewenberg asked Nick Nurse if Johnson and Hollis-Jefferson are contributing to the team’s defensive identity, the Raptors head coach had some pretty harsh criticism:

“Nope, nope, nope. Those guys have not understood A) how hard we play, B) our schemes, that defense is a priority for them. We’ve got some work to do with that crew. I tell them there’s a couple spots open come Tuesday night if somebody wants them. And I keep telling [them] show me you’re going to play defense, show me you’re going to play hard, show me you understand our coverages. And then whatever you do on the other end you’re going to get opportunities just because of who you’re on the floor with and they’ll come to you. You don’t have to come down and occupy 95 percent of your mind with how you’re going to break down and get your next shot. It’s not going to get you on the floor right now. So we’ve got work to do. We’ve got to find who’s going to blend in quickly defensively with this crew.”"
Fizdale hasn't run an offense  
LawrenceTaylor56 : 10/17/2019 2:21 pm : link
all last season, summer league, and so far pre-season.

In a professional field we call that a trend.

Why would you not want to run an offense during warm up games to see what works and what doesn't?
RE: RE: It's pre season but I hate most of what Fizdale is doing  
Pep22 : 10/17/2019 2:22 pm : link
In comment 14631741 nygiants16 said:
Quote:
In comment 14631740 Torrag said:


Quote:


Both with the lineup and playstyle.



ok so what style would you play with this roster? what lineups would you use?


You're not asking me but I'll answer the question:

BIGs (96 minutes):

Randle 32 minutes
Robinson 28
Portis 20
Gibson 10
Morris 6

SF:

Morris 22
Knox 26

SG:

RJB 28
Trier 20
I would not give Trier's minutes to Ellington and I am frustrated that Trier hasn't been in the mix.

PG:

Not sure how this will shake out because all three have major holes in their games.
RE: RE: people who complain about iso  
nygiants16 : 10/17/2019 2:23 pm : link
In comment 14631747 LawrenceTaylor56 said:
Quote:
In comment 14631743 nygiants16 said:


Quote:


do you watch the rest of the nba? everyone runs a ton of iso



Yeah, because they have the players who can do that consistently. The Knicks need an offense. Stop comparing us to the rest of the NBA. We're not.


i mean they did have 22 points on 32 made field goals so ball did move..

and post ups for randle or morris is not iso
RE: RE: RE: It's pre season but I hate most of what Fizdale is doing  
nygiants16 : 10/17/2019 2:24 pm : link
In comment 14631755 Pep22 said:
Quote:
In comment 14631741 nygiants16 said:


Quote:


In comment 14631740 Torrag said:


Quote:


Both with the lineup and playstyle.



ok so what style would you play with this roster? what lineups would you use?



You're not asking me but I'll answer the question:

BIGs (96 minutes):

Randle 32 minutes
Robinson 28
Portis 20
Gibson 10
Morris 6

SF:

Morris 22
Knox 26

SG:

RJB 28
Trier 20
I would not give Trier's minutes to Ellington and I am frustrated that Trier hasn't been in the mix.

PG:

Not sure how this will shake out because all three have major holes in their games.


I agree on trier but i see the value in ellington, him just being on the court spreads the floor..

so basically you would have the same lineups fiz has been using
RE: RE: RE: people who complain about iso  
nygiants16 : 10/17/2019 2:24 pm : link
In comment 14631759 nygiants16 said:
Quote:
In comment 14631747 LawrenceTaylor56 said:


Quote:


In comment 14631743 nygiants16 said:


Quote:


do you watch the rest of the nba? everyone runs a ton of iso



Yeah, because they have the players who can do that consistently. The Knicks need an offense. Stop comparing us to the rest of the NBA. We're not.



i mean they did have 22 points on 32 made field goals so ball did move..

and post ups for randle or morris is not iso


22 assists
RE: people who complain about iso  
yatqb : 10/17/2019 2:24 pm : link
In comment 14631743 nygiants16 said:
Quote:
do you watch the rest of the nba? everyone runs a ton of iso


We don't have the shooting or the quickness to run ISO well. We're a bunch of mismatched parts.
RE: RE: people who complain about iso  
nygiants16 : 10/17/2019 2:28 pm : link
In comment 14631762 yatqb said:
Quote:
In comment 14631743 nygiants16 said:


Quote:


do you watch the rest of the nba? everyone runs a ton of iso



We don't have the shooting or the quickness to run ISO well. We're a bunch of mismatched parts.


post ups are not iso...

and the bigs actually fit together, portis and gibson are a good match and randle and mitch are a good match..

1 3 ppint shooter in both those pairings..

morris shot 40 percent from 3 last year..

the problem is not the fromt court, the bsck court has to have at least 1 guy emerge as a good shooter
RE: RE: RE: This makes sense to me  
Anakim : 10/17/2019 2:29 pm : link
In comment 14631742 Pep22 said:
Quote:
In comment 14631722 Anakim said:


Quote:


In comment 14631548 Pep22 said:


Quote:


Ntlikina + Dotson

for

Kennard + Frazier



Decent proposal


Speaking of which, Detroit has drafted pretty poorly the last few years. Stanley Johnson, Luke Kennard, Henry Ellenson...



Wow, yeah that's a bad list. btw, did you see what Nick Nurse said about Stanley Johnson? He roasted him for being lazy, ill-prepared etc.


Dan LOVED the Stanimal :)
RE: oh come the fuck on  
Anakim : 10/17/2019 2:30 pm : link
In comment 14631745 Greg from LI said:
Quote:
TWO Dookies on the team? One wasn't bad enough? Christ


He'll fill the quota left by Lance Thomas
ny16, I was talking about the team as a whole.  
yatqb : 10/17/2019 2:35 pm : link
I've rooted for this team forever, but this isn't a pretty group.
I mean. As team with one "110%' star  
idiotsavant : 10/17/2019 2:37 pm : link
One "87%" stat and a pile of "70s". It might be easy to coach. Role players feed the stars. Play D. Shoot 3s.

Give a coach ten "80%" players and you can win, but it probably is a much more complex task that requires an old school nuts and bolts practicality with regards to putting together puzzle pieces.

Have we seen that? I'm not knowledgeable in basketball, but it seems random.
RE: ny16, I was talking about the team as a whole.  
nygiants16 : 10/17/2019 2:39 pm : link
In comment 14631768 yatqb said:
Quote:
I've rooted for this team forever, but this isn't a pretty group.


what did you expect, they told you how they were going to play, it is going tl be bully ball, when you are bigger than most teams you are not going to try to outgun them..

the knicks are going to muddy the game, post ups and try to slow the pace..
I agree, idiotsavant. There seems to be no rhyme or reason  
yatqb : 10/17/2019 2:40 pm : link
for how Fizdale selects floor time, and I'd go as far as to say that we don't have a bunch of 80s, it's more like a few 80s and a whole bunch of 50s with huge deficits in their individual games.
I think the potential is there to be competitive most nights  
Mike in NJ : 10/17/2019 2:49 pm : link
but agree with most that it's not going to happen with the lineups Fizdale looks to want to run out there.

I'm sorry, but I don't think Bobby Portis deserve more than like 5-10 minutes per night, but it looks like Fizdale wants to give him significant run. Robinson and Gibson should be getting all of the minutes at the 5. Give 28 to Mitch and 20 to Gibson, if Robinson gets in to foul trouble then that's when Portis should get more time.

At the 4 Randle is obviously going to get the bulk of the time, and I would like to see Morris get significant time there as well. Knox should be getting 30 minutes per night at the 3, which in order for that to happen Morris is going to have to spend a lot of time at the 4.

Backcourt needs to be a split between Barrett, Frank, DSJ and Trier.

Ideally the rotation would be split like this:

Center
Robinson 28 min.
Gibson 20 min.

PF
Randle 30 min.
Morris 15 min.
Portis 3 min.

SF
Knox 30 min.
Morris 15 min.
Barrett 3 min.

SG
Barrett 28 min.
Trier 20 min.

PG
Ntilikina 28 min.
Smith Jr. 20 min.

Barrett reminds me of  
JPinstripes : 10/17/2019 2:51 pm : link
DeMar DeRozan - 4 time all-star.
Comparing Barrett to Earl Monore  
arniefez : 10/17/2019 2:54 pm : link
is almost as hilarious as comparing Jesus Montero to Mickey Mantle. Not as funny but in the conversation. I think Barrett will have a better NBA career than Montero did a MLB career. But it's still a keeper. Earl Monroe. Damn that's funny.
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