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How Did the Oline Get Worse?

christian : 10/20/2019 6:43 pm
The Giants oline was pretty decent the back half of last year. I thought it was just a matter of continuity for this group, but as highlighted in the broadcast they have played 7 games together now.

I get Zeitler is maybe banged up, but yikes Solder and Hernandez look worse, Halapio looks as bad if not worse than Pulley, and Remmers while no Wheeler looks very pedestrian.

The Giants could at least run the ball the 2nd half of last year. What's happened?
Granted, the Oline isn't great  
mjba8994 : 10/20/2019 6:48 pm : link
but a lot of the struggles falls on the coach and Daniel Jones. He needs to learn to recognize different blitzes and call protections accordingly. He also hangs on to the ball for too long and doesn't have the best awareness. He's going to get better with experience. With Shurmur, I don't know man...
3/5 of the line is different  
bluepepper : 10/20/2019 6:51 pm : link
from the second half of last year so no reason to think there'd be much of a carryover.
...  
christian : 10/20/2019 6:53 pm : link
I give Zeitler plenty of latitude with the injury, but this version of him isn't as good as Jamon Brown was last season.

Halapio looks outclassed. He's a strong guy, but he's frequently on the other side of a big gaffe. Same thing with Solder.
They got worse while the QB they're protecting  
jcn56 : 10/20/2019 6:54 pm : link
was subbed in and is much faster. Go figure.
Halapio was always a JAG  
BigBlueDownTheShore : 10/20/2019 6:58 pm : link
He was never the fucking answer and neither was Remmers who at this point isn't even close to being good. There was a reason they moved him to guard and failed miserably.
Solder  
Lines of Scrimmage : 10/20/2019 7:00 pm : link
is playing very poorly. I think you are correct about Zeitler being hurt which is probably effecting Halapio.

After next year don't be surprised if its Hernandez and four new starters. Hopefully they can get two more years out of Zeitler.

The tackles suck  
hitdog42 : 10/20/2019 7:00 pm : link
And the Center sucks
The tackles are expensive and suck
One of the expensive tackles was restructured making it even harder to cut his sucking self
Jones hanging  
crick n NC : 10/20/2019 7:00 pm : link
On to the ball is a factor that must be considered as well
...  
christian : 10/20/2019 7:05 pm : link
I don't think it's out of the question the oline is the worst unit on the team. It's really disappointing.

No one was under the allusion the line would be a great. It's damn concerning how much worse they are.

This is the area I'm the most concerned with Gettleman over.
Eli quick check downs and 3 and outs...  
penkap75 : 10/20/2019 7:07 pm : link
Made the oline seem better stat wise last year. Jones holds on to the ball too long, always looking for the big downfield play. Pick your poison, high risk/reward turn over prone play with Jones. Or low risk check down Eli play with guaranteed 3 n out. At least with Jones he has rookie excuse and might learn something from it (or not, who knows).
RE: Eli quick check downs and 3 and outs...  
christian : 10/20/2019 7:09 pm : link
In comment 14637294 penkap75 said:
Quote:
Made the oline seem better stat wise last year. Jones holds on to the ball too long, always looking for the big downfield play. Pick your poison, high risk/reward turn over prone play with Jones. Or low risk check down Eli play with guaranteed 3 n out. At least with Jones he has rookie excuse and might learn something from it (or not, who knows).


Sure but the Giants were running the ball really well the last 8 games of last year.

With arguably the best RB in the league, that would be helpful to have this year.
Where are the  
hitdog42 : 10/20/2019 7:09 pm : link
“All hail gettleman” people today? He chose this entire oline and it’s an absolute embarrassment









RE: Where are the  
crick n NC : 10/20/2019 7:11 pm : link
In comment 14637299 hitdog42 said:
Quote:
“All hail gettleman” people today? He chose this entire oline and it’s an absolute embarrassment










I doubt he considers this a finished job
My Answer  
Percy : 10/20/2019 7:17 pm : link
Age; terrible and discouraging coaching; attitude (bleak, hopeless future); new emphasis on run blocking, which they are no good at and which confuses them; sky-rocketing taxes and cost of living in New York; reading The New York Times.
RE: RE: Where are the  
ajr2456 : 10/20/2019 7:22 pm : link
In comment 14637305 crick n NC said:
Quote:
In comment 14637299 hitdog42 said:


Quote:


“All hail gettleman” people today? He chose this entire oline and it’s an absolute embarrassment












I doubt he considers this a finished job


Replacing 4/5th of the offensive line in 2 years isn’t a finished job?
RE: RE: Eli quick check downs and 3 and outs...  
KeoweeFan : 10/20/2019 7:23 pm : link
In comment 14637297 christian said:
Quote:
In comment 14637294 penkap75 said:


Quote:


Made the oline seem better stat wise last year. Jones holds on to the ball too long, always looking for the big downfield play. Pick your poison, high risk/reward turn over prone play with Jones. Or low risk check down Eli play with guaranteed 3 n out. At least with Jones he has rookie excuse and might learn something from it (or not, who knows).



Sure but the Giants were running the ball really well the last 8 games of last year.

With arguably the best RB in the league, that would be helpful to have this year.

Not helping our QB are the drops (OK lousy weather), lack of separation by the current WRs and if Papa is to be believed wrong routes by Latimer.

SB was only @ 75% Saquan today. Not only running, but without knowing the protection scheme it looked like he wiffed at least twice on pass protection that resulted in sacks.
He broke the bank for a bad player  
hitdog42 : 10/20/2019 7:24 pm : link
Period
And then restructured him making him impossible to cut
Held out at right tackle for remmers who is awful.
RE: RE: RE: Where are the  
Diver_Down : 10/20/2019 7:31 pm : link
In comment 14637337 ajr2456 said:
Quote:
In comment 14637305 crick n NC said:


Quote:


In comment 14637299 hitdog42 said:


Quote:


“All hail gettleman” people today? He chose this entire oline and it’s an absolute embarrassment












I doubt he considers this a finished job



Replacing 4/5th of the offensive line in 2 years isn’t a finished job?


Are you implying that Remmers is part of the finished product? Solder was always a stopgap to get Flowers out of the LT spot while providing stability to an OL in transition. Flowers is so terrible that he was cut and while Wheeler gave great effort, he also was terrible. Remmers was given the RT position even though he wasn't healthy enough to wear shorts and t-shirt in non-contact drills 2 months before the season started. Pulley should never have been retained after getting tossed around last year. Halapio is a JAG. We have 2/5th of the OL in Zeitler/Hernandez.
RE: RE: RE: Where are the  
darren in pdx : 10/20/2019 7:36 pm : link
In comment 14637337 ajr2456 said:
Quote:
In comment 14637305 crick n NC said:


Quote:


In comment 14637299 hitdog42 said:


Quote:


“All hail gettleman” people today? He chose this entire oline and it’s an absolute embarrassment












I doubt he considers this a finished job



Replacing 4/5th of the offensive line in 2 years isn’t a finished job?


Absolutely not, he's using elmer's glue to fill the in the gaps where he can.
The money they threw at Solder  
fkap : 10/20/2019 7:47 pm : link
and the restructure, say he is supposed to be part of the finished product.
Remmers is a stopgap. A very bad one.
Halapio - who knows? they might have seen him as an ok guy who would be hidden by having the rest of the line be solid. Or he might just be a stopgap.

It sucks that Hernandez is the only acquisition that looks worth acquiring. Zeitler is playing through a bad shoulder that likely affects ability to pump iron/maintain muscle, as well as directly affecting play. I guess you've got to give him a pass, but 3 positions need major upgrading.

one of the acquisitions that was supposed to be more than a stopgap didn't even make it through season one.

Overall, a bad, bad job of building a line.

It's not like this regime, or the last, didn't devote assets to the line. They both just seem to really suck at it.
Expensive glue  
hitdog42 : 10/20/2019 7:49 pm : link
He has had 2 off seasons - spent money in fa- and has 2 guards to show for it-
The tackles and centers are his
And they all stink
Enough excuses
Solder was not a stop gap  
AcesUp : 10/20/2019 7:52 pm : link
You don't give a stop gap 35 million guaranteed and then restructure more to guarantees a year later for a stop gap.
RE: Solder was not a stop gap  
Percy : 10/20/2019 7:59 pm : link
In comment 14637445 AcesUp said:
Quote:
You don't give a stop gap 35 million guaranteed and then restructure more to guarantees a year later for a stop gap.

Well someone did just that for this dud.
Solder is terrible  
islander1 : 10/20/2019 8:02 pm : link
Halapio isn't a replacement.
Hernandez is a draft pick, and doing ok.
Remmers was ALWAYS a stop gap. We had no money.
Zeitler is injured. Not Gettleman's fault.

Why people are riding Gettleman for anything other than his FA track record is beyond me. I've seen people say he should've drafted Darnold. Really? Since when has he proven to be better than Jones? He's not.

I do worry to death about DG in free agency next summer. If he does it well, we'll be okay. IF.

Bettcher's defensive scheme was never a match for our personnel, and still isn't.

Shurmur is over his head as a head coach. That 4th and 15 decision was mind numbingly stupid.
RE: Where are the  
christian : 10/20/2019 8:03 pm : link
In comment 14637370 Diver_Down said:
Quote:
Solder was always a stopgap to get Flowers out of the LT spot while providing stability to an OL in transition.


I won't argue Gettleman's intent, but if he were indeed a stopgap intended to solidify, it's been a massive fuck up.

Stopgaps don't typically draw 4 year 62M dollar contracts. They also aren't typically the contracts you convert salary to bonus on and make it more difficult to exit later.

As far as stabilizing, well, I'll leave that one alone.

The notion Gettleman has just bubble gummed a line together is absurd.

The Giants have the 2nd highest paid left tackle in the league, the 8th highest paid guard, and a top a 35 pick. Remmers makes 2.5M.

The only genuine low asset player on the line is Halapio.
Hernandez may be pulling a Richburg  
santacruzom : 10/20/2019 8:17 pm : link
Very promising in year 1, regressing dramatically in year 2.
Because a 2 time SB winner and HOF QB  
giantsFC : 10/20/2019 8:20 pm : link
Was benched for a rookie reach pick who is very raw?

Eli May be well past his prime but he def still knows how to play to keep the shitshow to a minimum
Today made me long for Flowers and Hart  
Default : 10/20/2019 8:21 pm : link
Gettleman and his hog mollies are shit, just like this whole franchise.
Maybe they can spend a top 3 pick on another RB next year.
The old guys have  
Bill in UT : 10/20/2019 8:46 pm : link
gotten a year older, and the young guys haven't gotten a year better.
Shitty coaching staff  
Rflairr : 10/20/2019 8:49 pm : link
. OL coach was with him in Cleveland, and was out of the league until They foolishly hired Shurmur.
$60 million  
ajr2456 : 10/20/2019 9:00 pm : link
On a stop gap. Lol
I think some are missing the point.  
robbieballs2003 : 10/20/2019 9:06 pm : link
This is where coaching comes into play. When you basically abandon the run as a coach you set the D up to just get after the QB. That makes the OL face a difficult task. Good coaching helps to mask deficiencies not create them. He did this team no favors today and this was a common theme like the first half of last season.
RE: $60 million  
Diver_Down : 10/20/2019 9:11 pm : link
In comment 14637640 ajr2456 said:
Quote:
On a stop gap. Lol


I'll respond to you but it also is directed at Christian. Yes, Nate was intended to be a stopgap. You quote the size of his entire contract, but it was originally structured to be a 2 year contract with an out in 2020. That by very definition is a stopgap. That isn't a long-term commitment. Not all stopgaps are cheap players. Let's not be revisionist to the fact that Nate was the 2nd best FA OL available. When you suck at drafting OL like Reese, then you are forced to shop hungry.

Making him the highest paid LT at the time is just a function of supply/demand and the FA market itself.
Solder  
AcidTest : 10/20/2019 9:32 pm : link
was signed because the Giants still believed Eli could produce for a few more years. He was immobile, so they had to protect him, which meant overpaying for the only LT on the FA market. They should have known that Eli was done. If they had, Solder likely wouldn't have been signed. Remmers is also done. He and Solder can't protect the edge. Halapio gets walked back into the QB. Zeitler and Hernandez are the only keepers.
I don't know, when I looke at the OL players we have some guys there  
PatersonPlank : 10/20/2019 9:41 pm : link
that have had success other places, and a 2nd rd draft pick who made the all-rookie team. I just don't buy that the talent isn't there. I think there is something wrong with the whole offense and scheme. Stopping pressure involves the OL, the RBs, the QB, and the WR. Its like we just don't adjust or recognize what the D is doing.

I continue to fall back on our coaches suck
RE: RE: $60 million  
christian : 10/20/2019 9:58 pm : link
In comment 14637660 Diver_Down said:
Quote:
In comment 14637640 ajr2456 said:


Quote:


On a stop gap. Lol



I'll respond to you but it also is directed at Christian. Yes, Nate was intended to be a stopgap. You quote the size of his entire contract, but it was originally structured to be a 2 year contract with an out in 2020. That by very definition is a stopgap. That isn't a long-term commitment. Not all stopgaps are cheap players. Let's not be revisionist to the fact that Nate was the 2nd best FA OL available. When you suck at drafting OL like Reese, then you are forced to shop hungry.

Making him the highest paid LT at the time is just a function of supply/demand and the FA market itself.


This argument has been made repeatedly and it just doesn't add up.

Before the restructure Solder's contract would have came with 11.5M in dead money after year 2, that's hardly an "out." It was going to be a painful contract to exit after 2 years no matter what.

And the notion Gettleman "had" to shop hungry because Reese was bad at building a line is silly. The proof? Gettleman did it and the line is equally dreadful.

Gettleman overpaid for Solder, Solder isn't a good player, and the Giants line sucks.
I believe we are seeing a perfect...  
bw in dc : 10/20/2019 10:00 pm : link
collision of Gettleman's inability to find the right OLs and having an incompetent fool like OLC Hal Hunter.
RE: I believe we are seeing a perfect...  
christian : 10/20/2019 10:12 pm : link
In comment 14637751 bw in dc said:
Quote:
collision of Gettleman's inability to find the right OLs and having an incompetent fool like OLC Hal Hunter.


You forgot the part where it's Reese's fault too. The ghost of Reese sneaks in and makes Gettleman do it.
RE: Hernandez may be pulling a Richburg  
islander1 : 10/20/2019 10:32 pm : link
In comment 14637533 santacruzom said:
Quote:
Very promising in year 1, regressing dramatically in year 2.


It makes you question the coaching, doesn't it?

Especially when you look at linemen who have left our club.
RE: I don't know, when I looke at the OL players we have some guys there  
islander1 : 10/20/2019 10:33 pm : link
In comment 14637722 PatersonPlank said:
Quote:
that have had success other places, and a 2nd rd draft pick who made the all-rookie team. I just don't buy that the talent isn't there. I think there is something wrong with the whole offense and scheme. Stopping pressure involves the OL, the RBs, the QB, and the WR. Its like we just don't adjust or recognize what the D is doing.

I continue to fall back on our coaches suck


+1
RE: RE: $60 million  
Jimmy Googs : 10/20/2019 10:42 pm : link
In comment 14637660 Diver_Down said:
Quote:
In comment 14637640 ajr2456 said:


Quote:


On a stop gap. Lol



I'll respond to you but it also is directed at Christian. Yes, Nate was intended to be a stopgap. You quote the size of his entire contract, but it was originally structured to be a 2 year contract with an out in 2020. That by very definition is a stopgap. That isn't a long-term commitment. Not all stopgaps are cheap players. Let's not be revisionist to the fact that Nate was the 2nd best FA OL available. When you suck at drafting OL like Reese, then you are forced to shop hungry.

Making him the highest paid LT at the time is just a function of supply/demand and the FA market itself.


This is a crock of shit.

Making him the highest paid lineman was an example of what not to do for this team...
RE: Jones hanging  
Johnny5 : 10/20/2019 11:03 pm : link
In comment 14637270 crick n NC said:
Quote:
On to the ball is a factor that must be considered as well

He's under duress every f**cking play and Barkley is STILL getting hit in the backfield FAR too often. This OL still sucks. Slightly less suck but still SUCK.
RE: Solder is terrible  
jcn56 : 10/20/2019 11:10 pm : link
In comment 14637487 islander1 said:
Quote:
Halapio isn't a replacement.
Hernandez is a draft pick, and doing ok.
Remmers was ALWAYS a stop gap. We had no money.
Zeitler is injured. Not Gettleman's fault.

Why people are riding Gettleman for anything other than his FA track record is beyond me. I've seen people say he should've drafted Darnold. Really? Since when has he proven to be better than Jones? He's not.

I do worry to death about DG in free agency next summer. If he does it well, we'll be okay. IF.

Bettcher's defensive scheme was never a match for our personnel, and still isn't.

Shurmur is over his head as a head coach. That 4th and 15 decision was mind numbingly stupid.


Hang on a second - you make it sound as if Gettleman somehow inherited these coaches.

He hired Shurmur - remember, how he praised him for being an adult?

He also had to sign off on Bettcher. The point about not having the personnel for his scheme - do you think Bettcher came in and won an arm wrestle with Gettleman and forced hi m to go along with a 3-4? Why do you skip past the fact that the GM and his staff had to be onboard with Bettcher's plans?

If the scheme and the personnel don't fit - Gettleman's to blame.
overpaying for a FA  
fkap : 10/20/2019 11:14 pm : link
while regrettable, is not the bad part.
picking Solder at all is the bad part.

It wouldn't have been ok to have him playing if he were cheaper. Remmers is a bargain at 2+ mil. Like Solder, his play is unacceptable.

Sure, spending that kind of money on any player limits you in other areas, but the important part is to get production, even if it's not good value, from the player.
It's worth noting that not only was Nate Solder  
eclipz928 : 10/20/2019 11:28 pm : link
made the highest paid lineman in the NFL at the time he signed his contract, but he's currently the highest paid player on this roster. I can't imagine that it's not something that his teammates think about as they observe his mediocre performances each week.

I wouldn't fault anyone on this team asking for a contract like Solder's when it's time for them to negotiate - that's the table that has been set by the GM by making this bad deal, and then doubling down on it this year by restructuring the guaranteed money.
halapio is holding them back  
Torrag : 10/21/2019 1:00 am : link
He isn't holding up his end for the guys on either side of him. Both Hernandez and Zeitler are suffering from being saddled with such a zero at Center. He's destroyed what had developed into a solid inside running game last season., it's now non-existent.

While not ideal Solder and Remmers are an improvement on Flowers/Wheeler.
While the Giants are trying to make a comeback GW drive  
shockeyisthebest8056 : 10/21/2019 1:45 am : link
the final 2 times they have the ball, literally no one blocks the best player on the other team leading to a first down sack. Remmers literally gets knocked on his ass by Brooks Reed. Chandler Jones gets around Nate Solder by the time Daniel Jones takes his 3rd step. Even Zeitler is getting pushed back onto the QB's feet.

I said this as far back as the Tampa game. The o-line has been getting worse each week. A compromised Zeitler and Remmers are barely any better than the scrubs we used to have. Nate Solder is the most overpaid player in the sport. He's struggling to block the ancient Terrell Suggs on running plays. How many holding plays did this bunch get?
I am not sure why people have such high expectations  
.McL. : 10/21/2019 2:48 am : link
I recall in June 0f 2018 people were proclaiming that the signings of Solder and Omameh meant that the OL was "fixed".

I took a look at the players from 2017 vs 2018 and said that I thought that the 2018 version was likely to be significantly worse thant 2017.

Fast forward to June 2019 and folks were saying that the trade for Zietler, signing Remmers and getting Halapio back would mean that he line was fixed.

I said at that time that folks were getting out over their skis.

Solder was no great shakes last year, and now he is another year over 30.

Remmers is over 30 and has injury problems, and was never anything more than a mediocre stater

Halapio plain old stinks.

And Halapio, Zietler and Remmers had never played together before and have 0 chemistry. And Hernandez and Halapio only played 1 2/3 games together entering the season.

And it was clear that god forbid one of the starting guards or tackles went down, we had no depth.

So no, this line was "better" on paper, heavy emphasis on the quotes, but it remained to see how it shaped up.

So now here we are, the line has no cohesiveness, Solder looks a year old, Remmers looks 1 year older than his previous pedestrian self, Halapio still sucks, and Zietler is playing injured because we don't have a viable backup.

The Line Is Not Fixed!!!
The needs are the same 2OTs and 1 C.

While getting Zietler from Vernon was good... Resigning Jamon Brown and using Vernon to bring in another piece might have been a better move.
News at 11.
Pressures  
jeff57 : 10/21/2019 8:16 am : link
The Giants allowed 22 pressures on Sunday vs. the Cardinals, per Next Gen Stats. They hadn't allowed more than 10 in a game previously this season.
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