I’m still trying to digest exactly what happened today. I’m also trying not to have an emotional response, and make any snap judgments. I’m sure some of this is frustration coming through, and some is just venting, but today was concerning.
In my humble opinion, which isn't worth much, this loss is inexcusable. Completely on the coaching staff. You have 10 days to prepare for a team with a rookie quarterback and a rookie head coach traveling completely across the country, and playing in a different time zone. A team missing its best offensive weapon, running back David Johnson, and their most explosive pass catcher, Christian Kirk.
Penalties. Dropped passes. Missed tackles. Blown assignments. Poor play calling. Busted coverages. Missed opportunities. Wash, rinse, repeat. Every week, unprepared.
I don't get it. Shurmur is supposed to be an offensive of guru. Where is the creativity? Where is the unique playcalling? How come we aren't getting the ball into the hands of our dynamic play makers in multiple ways? Where are the adjustments? One of the comments that Mara made when he was hired was that it’s nice to have an adult in the building. What good is an adult that makes poor decisions, and is a weak in-game coach? The poor decision making. The failed challenges. Maybe he’s overwhelmed. Maybe the job is too big for him.
So far, Arizona has allowed a quarterback passer rating of over 100 every quarterback they played. Except Jones. 78.
So far, Arizona has given up either 100 yards receiving, or a touchdown every single tight end they played. Except today. 1 catch for 6 yards for Engram.
Arizona’s defense was ranked 29 on the year, and all they can muster is 14 offensive points?
Arizona had 3 takeaways through their first 6 games. They had 3 total today. Arizona had 14 sacks through the first 6 games. They had 8 today.
They lost to Minnesota and New England. I get that. They'll lose to Green Bay and Detroit. I get that. But this is the type of game you'd like to see some progress. Instead it looks like they're going backwards.
Yet another season that is over before Halloween.
On the other side of the ball, we don't have one dynamic playmaker. Golden is our best pass rusher. He got no sacks and three tackles. Jenkins is thinking about sitting on a beach somewhere. Peppers is fine, but is that enough?
All the young guys on this team could turn out to be great, and the Giants could be in good shape starting next year or the year after. Or they could be just as good as we're seeing now, in which case they're sunk.
Have to wonder about the OL - scouting and the position coach. How is it that with exception of Hernandez - this team has been unable to draft a solid, not all-pro or HOF offensive lineman in 15 friggin years? You drat Jones witha top 5 pick - and you put a line aournd him that allows 8 sacks and 12 hits?
The LB corps is mediocre. Lot of those runs yesteday were on the LBs. They missed Connelly. And, again - how manyquality starters have they drafted at the position? Carter?
Dropped passes and the inability to stay healthy by 1st round TE. Re-signed Shepard, who is having trouble staying on the field.
Huge question: What happened to Bettcher's ability to field a decent defense?
Well we did draft two guys named Snee and Diehl that were very good for a long time and Jones was not top 5 pick, just saying AND I do get your point btw
Hate? No.
Hold him accountable for the decisions he's made that are currently backfiring? Yes.
He is largely responsible for the state of this team. That includes Shurmur. If he didn't want him - he was just hired, he obviously had enough clout that he could have gone to Mara and said 'wait, not this guy'.
We actually had more first downs than them and out gained them. Their QB had 104 yards passing.
What we didn't do was hold onto the ball or stop a scrub RB from getting the corner several times.
This was a game we should have won if we had better clock management, better field awareness and cut down the drops. The sequence at the end of the half where we took ourselves out of FG range was pathetic.
Then we had two chances to either tie or take the lead in the last 5 minutes and shit the bed.
But let's not make this out to be us getting dominated. Shurmur had a big hand in this defeat, but we could have and should have won the game.
Reese wasn't in position to make any waves at that point - he was on shaky ground, with the others holding him and TC responsible for the team's performance and probably narrowly avoiding giving him the pink slip as well.
Gettleman was just in the door, and they had no HC. I don't doubt that Mara and Tisch played a part - if not a large part - in hiring Shurmur, I just find it impossible that if Gettleman had a problem with Shurmur they'd proceed with the hire anyway.
We actually had more first downs than them and out gained them. Their QB had 104 yards passing.
What we didn't do was hold onto the ball or stop a scrub RB from getting the corner several times.
This was a game we should have won if we had better clock management, better field awareness and cut down the drops. The sequence at the end of the half where we took ourselves out of FG range was pathetic.
Then we had two chances to either tie or take the lead in the last 5 minutes and shit the bed.
But let's not make this out to be us getting dominated. Shurmur had a big hand in this defeat, but we could have and should have won the game.
They ran all over the Giants, and the Giants couldn't run to save their lives despite having Barkley back.
They lost that game at the LOS. Call it whatever you want statistically, the fact that Murray didn't pass much doesn't mean anything when they could run at will.
We actually had more first downs than them and out gained them. Their QB had 104 yards passing.
What we didn't do was hold onto the ball or stop a scrub RB from getting the corner several times.
This was a game we should have won if we had better clock management, better field awareness and cut down the drops. The sequence at the end of the half where we took ourselves out of FG range was pathetic.
Then we had two chances to either tie or take the lead in the last 5 minutes and shit the bed.
But let's not make this out to be us getting dominated. Shurmur had a big hand in this defeat, but we could have and should have won the game.
The 14 points we scored offensively for the game would not have been enough to overcome the 17 points they scored in the first half. As far as I can tell, causing turnovers, getting 8 sacks (two of which came when the Giants were trying to go down the field to win) and running for 20 yard touchdowns are a pretty good indication you're beating the other team. Did it ever feel to you like the Giants were in this game? Because it didn't to me.
Unless the coach is in place when the GM arrives, a different set of circumstances, the GM is building the team in his image. Mara certainly has final signature, but that’s a formality. Shurmur is 100% on Gettleman.
One other thing...
It’s starting to look like Gettleman made two draft mistakes - Barkley and Jones. Because right now Jones is trending the wrong direction. And rapidly.
They had three runs where they exploited the back 7 for 20+ yard TD's. Other than that - the offense was ineffective. In fact, when they tried to close out the game, they couldn't get first downs to do so and lost yardage.
Their DL dominated our OL.
We had chances to win that game. A combination of terrible clock management, poor OL blocking, Jones holding the ball too long and questionable playcalling was the tipping point.
Those were two bad, pretty evenly matched teams and even after spotting them 17 points, we should have won. I still don't know how we didn't have a FG try at the end of the half.
This game has turned my opinion of Shurmur, because it was a winnable game and we looked like we didn't have the first idea how to go about taking control in the 4th.
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But if you don't think he's drafted some nice building blocks then you either aren't watching, are too stupid to see talent when is there, or are just being obtuse because you have an axe to grind.
Well, you seem to have some form of vision the rest of us don't - so please explain where all this talent was yesterday when the Cardinals came across country for an early game and managed to push the Giants all over the field.
Or was it all just Pat Shurmur's doing?
I don't have any unique insight. Its just simple commmon sense. And "the rest of you" is really only a loud minority on this site with an axe to grind because Gettleman doesn't do things the way you want them done, doesn't answer media questions you want them answered, and doesn't draft the players you want him to draft. Half the stuff I read from a lot of you doesn't even make any sense at all. Its just bitching about whatever pops into your head at any given moment, whether its logical or not.
Do you really believe this defense is as bad as it looks from a talent perspective, or do you not see how the majority of its faults lie with the way that talent is utilized? I'm not saying the talent level is elite. I'm not saying it doesn't require upgrades. But its not awful. Bettcher makes it look worse than it really is.
The same goes for the offense. As I said before, the offense should be going through Barkley. You mentioned that he doesn't have good run blockers. Thats 100% inaccurate. He is running the ball just fine. He's averaging over 5 yards per carry. He needs it more often and he needs more attention in the passing game as well. This is an issue thats been going on since last season. That is coaching. Yes, we need new tackles. This isn't a secret. Solder looks like toast and Remmers was a bandaid signing who's been up and down. They were the best options available at the time. But if you know your protection is weak, do something else. Help them out. Again, coaching.
Terps has been all over it.
They had three runs where they exploited the back 7 for 20+ yard TD's. Other than that - the offense was ineffective. In fact, when they tried to close out the game, they couldn't get first downs to do so and lost yardage.
Their DL dominated our OL.
We had chances to win that game. A combination of terrible clock management, poor OL blocking, Jones holding the ball too long and questionable playcalling was the tipping point.
Those were two bad, pretty evenly matched teams and even after spotting them 17 points, we should have won. I still don't know how we didn't have a FG try at the end of the half.
This game has turned my opinion of Shurmur, because it was a winnable game and we looked like we didn't have the first idea how to go about taking control in the 4th.
A second stringer from Fordham of all places ran for 126 yards. What would running at will look like? He ran both TDs behind Justin Pugh, for whatever that's worth either.
did we miss an easy FG that would've helped?
When you have chances to win the game and fail, you aren't dominated. You are likely outcoached.
did we miss an easy FG that would've helped?
When you have chances to win the game and fail, you aren't dominated. You are likely outcoached.
If us plebes can see it hopefully DG does too. I really think we got saddled in our head coaching search by telling the next guy they have to go with Eli like Eric said. The three choices we had were totally uninspiring.
The correct call is an easy call there, you try to pick up 8-10 yards through the air. Likely case? You pick up about 10 yards against a soft zone and give yourself a makeable 4th down. Best case? Same as with the draw, your playmaker makes a play and picks up some YAC for the first. Worst case? Incomplete pass, you save your timeouts and have the ability to punt because the clock is stopped and you can comfortably get your punt unit on the field.
He left himself no outs with that call, so when things did not go according to plan on 3rd down, he had no choice but to ride it out. I don't think he thought through his contingencies there.
Heading into the KR, I was shocked that the Cards had kicked it into the endzone with the Giants so close to the 2 minute warning. I was even more shocked that Slayton took it out. As bad as that result was, it was about 2 seconds away from costing us the 2 minute warning as well, which would have been even more disastrous. He's not thinking these decisions all the way through.
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twice in the final 5 minutes with a chance to tie or win the game? Did the Cards lose yardage both times they tried to "run out the clock"?
did we miss an easy FG that would've helped?
When you have chances to win the game and fail, you aren't dominated. You are likely outcoached.
If us plebes can see it hopefully DG does too. I really think we got saddled in our head coaching search by telling the next guy they have to go with Eli like Eric said. The three choices we had were totally uninspiring.
Thats entirely possible. Which points to Mara - who really is to blame for all of this to begin with.
There’s just a glaring lack of attention to details everywhere we look, including the front office.
We actually had more first downs than them and out gained them. Their QB had 104 yards passing.
What we didn't do was hold onto the ball or stop a scrub RB from getting the corner several times.
This was a game we should have won if we had better clock management, better field awareness and cut down the drops. The sequence at the end of the half where we took ourselves out of FG range was pathetic.
Then we had two chances to either tie or take the lead in the last 5 minutes and shit the bed.
But let's not make this out to be us getting dominated. Shurmur had a big hand in this defeat, but we could have and should have won the game.
Exactly. That is what is beyond frustrating. A competent coaching staff annihilates that team yesterday at home.
I'm sure Shurmur's no great shakes either - don't make this out to be a defense of him in any way.
But I've seen the same thing repeated over and over again on BBI when the outcome of games look close and people extrapolate that to 'they should have won'.
The Cards had a small lead going into the end of the game, but they played extremely conservative knowing that the Giants offense was not a threat to do anything. They were incapable of holding the Cards pass rush at bay, and weren't able to open up holes for Barkley to run.
Barkley even managing what he did was a credit to his ability, given that he was often met with blockers a yard or two into the backfield.
Go Terps : 12:05 am : link : reply
I've asked some version of this question several times this past couple weeks, and haven't gotten an answer:
Where are the data experts that are assisting the coaching staff with critical game management decisions? What is the process for making these decisions?
In light of today's clusterfuck starting with the colossally stupid timeout at 4:38, it's fair to ask why this team isn't going to the same lengths other teams are to get their decisions right.
Interesting points. However decisions did not lose this game. It was the blocking and tackling.
EE should have been used more often but he also missed quite a few passes yesterday for whatever reason. I think he missed 4 balls. Should DJ keep feeding him and hope it suddenly clicks? I dunno.
I was going to start a thread, but didn't have to cuz you made every point I was going to make.
All I will offer is to those who remember all the noise to get rid of Coughlin. What was it that led you to this conclusion? At least Tom had previous success in Jax.
This doofus doesn't have any record of success as a HC, and also doesn't come across as up or fiery or seem to admit any accountability on why they lost.
Remember Tom? "We lost its on me. It starts with me." This guy, "penalties, turnovers, missed field goals, etc. etc." Tom would bring in motivational speakers to talk to the team, take them bowling in season, try different leadership tactics to get the team motivated. Doofus made all the right calls. We just didn't execute.
He may not be saying it outright, but he is saying its on the players. MR Mara maybe these players don't want to play for him.
Engram 1
Shep 2
DJ 1
Barkley 1
OL 13.32% of 2019 Sal cap. (per sport trac)
Tate was suspended 4 games and Shep has been in and out, 3 games without barkley, but this offense otherwise has had there key players available.
Just don't see urgency, accountability, creativity, discipline, or overall enjoyment. Only exception is Barkley.
In closing. If you are an offensive minded coach, call the plays, are running your system, have Shula holding your clipboard, don't have a QB coach, have a healthy OL, Elite weapons like Barkley, Engram, Shep, experience in Golden Tate, have had 10 days to ready for the opponent, are at home, your opponent has to fly cross country, has one of the worst ranked defenses, have a mobile QB who is supposedly accurate with the ball how don't you have the self awareness in the post game presser to say "I have to do a better job".
Seems I now know what a Browns fan feels like. He has brought the stink of the Cleveland browns to East Rutherford.
In addition, as outlined in the original post:
-Rookie head coach
-Statistically a bottom 3 defense.
-A West Coast team, traveling east, playing a different time zone, for a 1 o’clock start.
-A team missing its best offense of weapon, David Johnson, and it’s most explosive pass catcher, Christian Kirk.
-Extra time to prepare due to the Thursday night game.
-Playing in the rain, against the warm weather, primarily passing “air raid” offense.
The more you think about this one, the worse it gets.
Chase Edmonds was their best offensive weapon yesterday and he's not a scrub. None of the above matters when your players don't execute. That whole extra time to prepare stuff is way overblown, too. The team did not pass protect, the OL was overwhelmed. DJ played his worst game trying to play hero ball. The receivers didn't get open for the most part, and the defense couldn't handle Edmonds' and Murray's speed. The linebacker play after losing Connelly has really suffered, and that will continue to be a problem all year long.
And Chandler Jones dominated our OL yesterday. Completely dominated. He had 4 sacks, and that's just getting your butt kicked repeatedly by a better player. That's on Mike Remmers, who was supposed to stabilize that RT position. He got his ass handed to him. Zeitler hand to help him repeatedly, and even with the double, Jones was still pushing the pocket.
That said, there has been a lot of improvement since Shurmur took over. The offense doesn't look completely dysfunctional like it did under McAdoo. We actually throw for first downs now, not completions for 3 yards on 3rd and 8. This team will get better, I do believe that Jones will get better, and as he improves in the mental aspect of the game, the Giants will also get a lot better. But they are going to need to address some positions where there are clear talent deficiencies that are hindering the execution. I sure hope there is something bothering Remmers and that he just needs a bye week to heal up. Because if this is the best we can expect from him, they need a RT pronto. And they also need to get a LT, because Solder isn't as good as he once was, and usually when that trend starts it doesn't stop. They can unload him after this season with a $13 million dead cap hit spread over two seasons, or one last rodeo next year, but I don't think he'll be hear the year after.
And this team is suffering from not having credible receiving threats. They need a strong player on the outside who can hurt teams one on one, and they don't have that right now, and it's showing. If they had someone defenses had to account for on the outside, it would help the entire offense and likely soften up the defense in the middle of the field. So they have to look at linebacker, pass rusher, wide receiver, and both tackle spots. It's a big shopping list but I think Gettleman can get most of that done by week 1 next season. He's shown to have an eye for good players in the draft, and the Giants will have some flexibility to get players in free agency. If Dallas doesn't pay Amari Cooper I would get him a lot of money to get him here. But there are a lot of guys right now on track to be UFAs, and the Giants need to be active, and I'm sure they will be.
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stop with the comments that the Cardinals came across the country and pushed the giants all over the field.
We actually had more first downs than them and out gained them. Their QB had 104 yards passing.
What we didn't do was hold onto the ball or stop a scrub RB from getting the corner several times.
This was a game we should have won if we had better clock management, better field awareness and cut down the drops. The sequence at the end of the half where we took ourselves out of FG range was pathetic.
Then we had two chances to either tie or take the lead in the last 5 minutes and shit the bed.
But let's not make this out to be us getting dominated. Shurmur had a big hand in this defeat, but we could have and should have won the game.
Exactly. That is what is beyond frustrating. A competent coaching staff annihilates that team yesterday at home.
Would a competent coaching staff been able to get Remmers to block Chandler Jones? They gave him help, they got physically whipped in the trenches on both sides of the ball, you could see it. Coaches aren't changing the fact that the players got physically whipped.
I wish I understood the thought process by which people simply refuse to say anything critical. At least in Coughlin's case he had a track record of consistent excellence and winning.
Understanding the "Cult of Gettleman" may have to start by wondering why people seemingly act like the guy only entered football last year and dismiss anything else he had accomplished.
Part of the questioning is not Gettleman's fault. Jawn is the one that came out and said Gettleman was hired because "he knows the way we operate" which for some is code for permitting Jawn to continue his amateur hour involvement in personnel matters. It may be an unfair characterization but there it is.
It's also fair to comment on his coaching hire, his free agent signings and the method by which he has gone about building a team and to point out that it is a little unusual to get rid of practically every decent player there was on the team and then using draft picks and trades to go and fill all of the same positions. It is kind of a novel way to go about business to reduce a team to expansion team status in order to try and build it back up.
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I wish I understood the thought process by which people simply refuse to say anything critical. At least in Coughlin's case he had a track record of consistent excellence and winning.
Understanding the "Cult of Gettleman" may have to start by wondering why people seemingly act like the guy only entered football last year and dismiss anything else he had accomplished.
It's a correction to the reckless praise with which he rode into town with. "built a super bowl contender from thin air". "He's gonna build it the old fashioned way".
"I know what I'm doing, junior." "This isn't my first rodeo." etc, etc, etc.
Hell, bw and some of you other guys were fawning all over Dorsey!
Hell, bw and some of you other guys were fawning all over Dorsey!
There's an element of truth there - Gettleman gets discounted because he's a former Giant. Fair or not, the familiarity with the organization and the reluctance to break from some of their old ways is going to be held against him.
During the search that led to Shurmer I think I said Mike Munchack as HC a O line guy and I think it was Chris Morgan OL coach of Falcons as OC.
Those guys are probably still available.
Also, Matt Patricia, you guys laughed at his personal grooming habits ...he's up next ....so....
Hell, bw and some of you other guys were fawning all over Dorsey!
Hell, bw and some of you other guys were fawning all over Dorsey!
I was?
This game has turned my opinion of Shurmur, because it was a winnable game and we looked like we didn't have the first idea how to go about taking control in the 4th.
Small steps I guess... Welcome to the Anti-Shurmur club!
Next up for you is the anti-Gettleman club.
I wish I understood the thought process by which people simply refuse to say anything critical. At least in Coughlin's case he had a track record of consistent excellence and winning.
Sounds to me you'd be happier as a Redskin fan where changing coaches is the solution all the time.
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To the cult of Dave Gettleman.
I wish I understood the thought process by which people simply refuse to say anything critical. At least in Coughlin's case he had a track record of consistent excellence and winning.
Sounds to me you'd be happier as a Redskin fan where changing coaches is the solution all the time.
No I think you mistake
people who can recognize the signs of a sinking ship and are looking for another way.
vs.
people who remain in denial about the ship going down and end up drowning and wondering why.
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In comment 14639267 Ten Ton Hammer said:
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To the cult of Dave Gettleman.
I wish I understood the thought process by which people simply refuse to say anything critical. At least in Coughlin's case he had a track record of consistent excellence and winning.
Sounds to me you'd be happier as a Redskin fan where changing coaches is the solution all the time.
No I think you mistake
people who can recognize the signs of a sinking ship and are looking for another way.
vs.
people who remain in denial about the ship going down and end up drowning and wondering why.
The ship isn't even built yet and is still in drydock...that's the part you're not getting.
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In comment 14639940 mrvax said:
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In comment 14639267 Ten Ton Hammer said:
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To the cult of Dave Gettleman.
I wish I understood the thought process by which people simply refuse to say anything critical. At least in Coughlin's case he had a track record of consistent excellence and winning.
Sounds to me you'd be happier as a Redskin fan where changing coaches is the solution all the time.
No I think you mistake
people who can recognize the signs of a sinking ship and are looking for another way.
vs.
people who remain in denial about the ship going down and end up drowning and wondering why.
The ship isn't even built yet and is still in drydock...that's the part you're not getting.
Like I said, some just remain in denial. Ok... the ship is crumbling in drydock... Is that better for you?
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In comment 14640209 .McL. said:
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In comment 14639940 mrvax said:
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In comment 14639267 Ten Ton Hammer said:
Quote:
To the cult of Dave Gettleman.
I wish I understood the thought process by which people simply refuse to say anything critical. At least in Coughlin's case he had a track record of consistent excellence and winning.
Sounds to me you'd be happier as a Redskin fan where changing coaches is the solution all the time.
No I think you mistake
people who can recognize the signs of a sinking ship and are looking for another way.
vs.
people who remain in denial about the ship going down and end up drowning and wondering why.
The ship isn't even built yet and is still in drydock...that's the part you're not getting.
Like I said, some just remain in denial. Ok... the ship is crumbling in drydock... Is that better for you?
You're impatient. This isn't a completed team. This is a work in progress. You're complaining we're not sailing when the ship is still being built and saying we are crumbling now. Ridiculous. ROOKIE QBs TAKE TIME TO SEASON. FFS. This is absolutely normal and it's an investment in the future of the franchise. You have to acknowledge we are 1 and a half seasons away from one of the worst 53 man rosters in the NFL with one of the worst starting QBs in the NFL. Turning that around doesn't happen in one season, and this team is markedly better than where it was in 2017. So no, it is not crumbling, it is trending in a positive direction and the rebuild is happening. You need to wait. I'm going to enjoy it when we do start winning.