I’m still trying to digest exactly what happened today. I’m also trying not to have an emotional response, and make any snap judgments. I’m sure some of this is frustration coming through, and some is just venting, but today was concerning.
In my humble opinion, which isn't worth much, this loss is inexcusable. Completely on the coaching staff. You have 10 days to prepare for a team with a rookie quarterback and a rookie head coach traveling completely across the country, and playing in a different time zone. A team missing its best offensive weapon, running back David Johnson, and their most explosive pass catcher, Christian Kirk.
Penalties. Dropped passes. Missed tackles. Blown assignments. Poor play calling. Busted coverages. Missed opportunities. Wash, rinse, repeat. Every week, unprepared.
I don't get it. Shurmur is supposed to be an offensive of guru. Where is the creativity? Where is the unique playcalling? How come we aren't getting the ball into the hands of our dynamic play makers in multiple ways? Where are the adjustments? One of the comments that Mara made when he was hired was that it’s nice to have an adult in the building. What good is an adult that makes poor decisions, and is a weak in-game coach? The poor decision making. The failed challenges. Maybe he’s overwhelmed. Maybe the job is too big for him.
So far, Arizona has allowed a quarterback passer rating of over 100 every quarterback they played. Except Jones. 78.
So far, Arizona has given up either 100 yards receiving, or a touchdown every single tight end they played. Except today. 1 catch for 6 yards for Engram.
Arizona’s defense was ranked 29 on the year, and all they can muster is 14 offensive points?
Arizona had 3 takeaways through their first 6 games. They had 3 total today. Arizona had 14 sacks through the first 6 games. They had 8 today.
They lost to Minnesota and New England. I get that. They'll lose to Green Bay and Detroit. I get that. But this is the type of game you'd like to see some progress. Instead it looks like they're going backwards.
Yet another season that is over before Halloween.
I've read on BBI that it's entirely on the coaches - as if to somehow absolve the FO for responsibility for the selection of the coaches themselves.
I've also seen where Bettcher's being blamed for the 3-4 - as if somehow, this wasn't brought up during his interview prior to his hiring either.
And that's without getting into the shit personnel on the team.
This is a multi-faceted failure - and everyone's hands are dirty, from Mara on down to the ST coach. Nobody's walking away from this clusterfuck clean.
I think this is partially on the owner as well. Always wanting to make the safe hire. Afraid to step outside of the box. Why is there so much opposition to a young, progressive, creative coach?
I think this is partially on the owner as well. Always wanting to make the safe hire. Afraid to step outside of the box. Why is there so much opposition to a young, progressive, creative coach?
Why do you go out of your way to deflect blame from Gettleman?
Do you think he wasn't responsible for hiring Shurmur? Or from retaining Eli despite all signs pointing to him being finished before this year ever started?
How about the OL "rebuild" - that's not coaching, you see players losing 1:1 battles on a regular basis, including the highest paid player on the roster in Solder and the second overall pick in the second round in Hernandez. Thus far this season, they're even worse than Reese's OLs were, and that's saying something.
Does Gettleman have to turn up with a dead hooker in his trunk before some here are willing to hold him accountable for anything?
Their QB and offensive scheme had Shurmer/Bettcher crapping in their pants......I heard Shurmer say they mostly stopped the running attack today...just a few big ones....that is akin to a manager after a pitcher giving up 3 grand slams....well aside from those grand slams......................
IMO coaches cannot be this much of a problem, that's true. But add in EE's huge drop. DJ ran into several of those sacks if not simply held the ball way too long. Barkley seemed to miss a few protection assignments, and even a few mis-reads in terms of holes & blocks. The D well...usually it's avoid big plays in the pass game, i guess it's even more obvious & necessary to stop chunk runs go figure. You might give AZ's play-caller credit, but seems like any run call worked just the same
The key is improvement. Certainly the coaches should have a short leash - even a mandate for development / improvement or they're out when game 16 ends. And hope to show better than that against another weaker team. But this was always going to be a rough year
How about the defensive line? There's one credible pass rusher on this team - Golden, who's on a one year prove it deal. He likely could be gone after this season. Everyone else behind him can't rush the passer for shit. The Cards ran the ball at will against the Giants. The strength of the Giants DL, the interior line - couldn't do diddly.
The Giants aren't a good team. They're poorly coached. The talent isn't very good. They have one player who could be great in Barkley, a couple of players who could be very good in Engram and Lawrence, and a lot of question marks who could go either way. They've massively overpaid for an OLT who's terrible, and their FA acquisitions the past couple of seasons have been brutal.
I think it is the talent on this team that is what is keeping them in games like today and last week, despite the inept coaching.
As far as the Manning situation, I have no evidence, but I’m almost certain that decision came down from ownership.
And speaking of ownership, I think after the failed McAdoo experiment, Mara wanted a safe hire. Unfortunately, it looks like it’s turning out to be a terrible hire. Not sure how much blame to put on Gettleman there.
As far as the line, obviously far from perfect. I do think that the playcalling and the protections are not helping this line though.
While Gettleman isn’t perfect, he walked into an absolutely atrocious situation. He needs some time to accumulate players.
Shurmer,, is the worst play caller/clock manager since Barry Switzer, who accomplished it all on cruise control.
I'm not in the lockeroom, but PS looks to passive to me and what this team needs is someone to push them.
This team came out after a week and a half, home game versus a beatable team and a chance to get to 3-4 and second place tie and looked blahhhh.
He clearly is not the right guy for any turnaround. All the guy does is lose. At historic levels.
I think it is the talent on this team that is what is keeping them in games like today and last week, despite the inept coaching.
As far as the Manning situation, I have no evidence, but I’m almost certain that decision came down from ownership.
And speaking of ownership, I think after the failed McAdoo experiment, Mara wanted a safe hire. Unfortunately, it looks like it’s turning out to be a terrible hire. Not sure how much blame to put on Gettleman there.
As far as the line, obviously far from perfect. I do think that the playcalling and the protections are not helping this line though.
While Gettleman isn’t perfect, he walked into an absolutely atrocious situation. He needs some time to accumulate players.
That's some mighty fine denial you have going on. Basically:
- Despite the absence of any proof, Gettleman was forced to retain Eli and hire Shurmur
- Despite the OL clearly losing 1:1 battles on a regular basis, you consider the coaching to be more likely to blame than the talent.
- The situation he entered was 'atrocious' - yet you believe he's made solid drafts, using the same scouting department that was in operation and responsible for said atrocity.
- In summation it's all on the coaches, and since Gettleman's not responsible for the coaches, none of this is his fault.
So what does Gettleman actually do in your eyes - get coffee for Mara?
They’ll give him at least another year. A full year with Jones.
I’m starting to have a feeling that Mara would rather do the easy thing and lose, than make the tough decisions and win.
I am not in favor of keeping mediocrity I just know that lousy teams keep firing coaches.
Will there be someone out there that is a no brainer, because if not the devil you know may be better than the next jerk of the street
So you think it was Gettleman’s idea to continue to trot Manning out there? Without the blessing of the owner and the head coach?
And yes, I do think that the general manager has a large role in the selection of players. Even if he carries over a large portion of the scouting department.
I am not in favor of keeping mediocrity I just know that lousy teams keep firing coaches.
Will there be someone out there that is a no brainer, because if not the devil you know may be better than the next jerk of the street
Lousy teams keep firing coaches because they're lousy from top to bottom, it's not the firing of the coaches that makes them lousy.
The Giants are not a good team, from the owner on down. Retaining Shurmur for an extra season or two won't fix that.
So you think it was Gettleman’s idea to continue to trot Manning out there? Without the blessing of the owner and the head coach?
And yes, I do think that the general manager has a large role in the selection of players. Even if he carries over a large portion of the scouting department.
Where's the upgraded talent? He sold a bill of goods - a return to ground and pound football by bolstering the line of scrimmage on both sides. The OL is just as bad, if not worse than it was before - and the DL is definitely worse.
Barkley's a dynamic player - but he was acquired with the 2nd overall pick. I think anyone could agree you SHOULD come away with a dynamic player at #2 overall.
Beyond that - I don't see where the grand influx of talent came from. A lot of young guys you can't declare as busts, but thus far - nothing in the way of production.
As far as Manning and Shurmur - I think if you're misguided enough to believe Gettleman wasn't onboard, then in your eyes the Giants are actually worse off since the GM isn't managing a damn thing. I don't think that's the case though - as is evident by the stopgaps attempted in year 1 when they thought a few quick fixes might result in a quicker return to winning (an obvious miscalculation of the so-called atrocity).
Where are the data experts that are assisting the coaching staff with critical game management decisions? What is the process for making these decisions?
In light of today's clusterfuck starting with the colossally stupid timeout at 4:38, it's fair to ask why this team isn't going to the same lengths other teams are to get their decisions right.
The Giants aren't trying to win, they're hoping to win. And on those rare occasions they actually win, they don't know why they won. When they lose, they don't know why they lost.
This is a team lost at sea, in a state of complete crisis from top to bottom.
Zietler-Pro bowler and all pro in Cleveland. Regressed since he’s been here.
Remmers-Starting caliber player in Minnesota. Enormous regression since he’s been here.
Hill-Strong season as a rookie. Regressed this season. Playing out of position.
Tomlinson-Strong season as a rookie. Regress this season. Playing out of position.
My point is that these guys have played well at times. And proven it. Why all of a sudden are they regressing?
Add a position? Motivation? Development? Practice habits? All of that falls directly on coaching.
It really is quite possible that he hasn't, at least by any meaningful measure.
Get the guy some talent so he can show what he can do before you write him off for not doing well enough in a year you knew you weren't go to do well regardless.
This is not hyperbole-today may have been one of the worst coached professional football games I’ve ever seen.
His decision making was terrible time after time after time. Full of blunders. And even after all that, they were still in it. Why? Because they have some (not all, but some) guys on the roster who can play.
The obvious is clock management the use of player personal .
His challenge use . His demeanor his body language .
His game planning . Just listen to his locker room speeches
post game he talks to these men like they are a pee wee
squad . The guy does not inspire anyone even when they are
playing halfway decent you don't see guys huddled around
a leader . I do think they play hard for Betcher but we
have zero speed on defense nor do we have a legitimate
hard hitting LB that can affect the run game and forget
Free safety he does mop up duty thats why he leads the team in tackles not because he is a rangy hard hitting force in the secondary he is done period .
Jones seems to have the arm strength and pretty good accuracy but he doesn't read the field well and hangs onto the ball far too long and I don't see the offensive scheme
helping him at all . The O-line had there worst game of the
season they could not run block at all and the pass blocking deteriorated as the game progressed Barkley was eliminated early and he looked to be 70% of what he is .
This is looking like a 3-5 win team right now and I don't
think its all on the players .
Zietler-Pro bowler and all pro in Cleveland. Regressed since he’s been here.
Remmers-Starting caliber player in Minnesota. Enormous regression since he’s been here.
Hill-Strong season as a rookie. Regressed this season. Playing out of position.
Tomlinson-Strong season as a rookie. Regress this season. Playing out of position.
My point is that these guys have played well at times. And proven it. Why all of a sudden are they regressing?
Add a position? Motivation? Development? Practice habits? All of that falls directly on coaching.
Solder - how many times have you seen guys NE let go turn out to be pedestrian elsewhere?
Remmers - journeyman, with injury issues.
Zeitler's hurt - we'll hope he'll return to form.
The rest - have had flashes here or there. Why anyone thought that amounted to them being some solid building blocks for the core is beyond me. "Played well at times" is practically damning with faint praise - you could just as easily say guys like Lorenzo Carter have been huge disappointments except for a few plays here or there. That's not necessarily coaching, that could just as easily be the talent that's there to work with.
I don't have any information; actually there's a lack of it. We know that the Patriots, Colts, Eagles, and other teams have experts dedicated to analyzing game management decisions. The Colts have two Ivy League guys up in the booth with a direct line to Reich. He asks them questions like, "If this pass is complete do we call timeout?" They provide real time data to provide the best possible decision making support to Reich...this was covered in an Athletic article and reiterated during SNF on NBC.
So what are the Giants doing to maximize their decision making process? What resources led then to taking a timeout today at 4:38?
Zietler-Pro bowler and all pro in Cleveland. Regressed since he’s been here.
Remmers-Starting caliber player in Minnesota. Enormous regression since he’s been here.
Hill-Strong season as a rookie. Regressed this season. Playing out of position.
Tomlinson-Strong season as a rookie. Regress this season. Playing out of position.
My point is that these guys have played well at times. And proven it. Why all of a sudden are they regressing?
Add a position? Motivation? Development? Practice habits? All of that falls directly on coaching.
Solder was always adequate at best in New England, and Belichick wasn't terribly broken up about his departure. Also, Kevin Zeitler has never made the Pro Bowl or been named to an All-Pro team, and I don't think either Hill or Tomlinson had particularly strong rookie years.
You and me both. I questioned people all season regarding their inflation of Hill's performance and it tended to make them very angry.
I think a lot of people bought heavily into that 3 sack game against the Bears as a true talent indicator rather than the fluke that it was.
Hill had 5.5 sacks without playing the full season last year. This season he only has 7 tackles. Total!
I think a lot of people bought heavily into that 3 sack game against the Bears as a true talent indicator rather than the fluke that it was.
Likely true. On the Cardinals fan version of BBI, I imagine there are posters assuming that Chase Edmunds will ascend to the elite tier of running backs.
With the right coaching staff, with the same players, today is a win. I just not sure who the right coaching staff is.
I know probably not a possibility but what would Belicheck and and his Oline coach do with this same team. I know we need some more players but I don’t think our talent level is as bad as our record.
- Not really running the ball all first half and then running it in the 2 minute offense. I get there are circumstances that dictate things, but I had no idea what we were trying to do on that drive.
- Slayton returning the ball out of the end zone at the end of the game. You tell him to take the TB. Even clean run backs rarely make it to the 25. Don't risk a penalty and potentially another play before the 2 minute warning. We do this a lot.
I agree. He doesn't look like the guy to me. I'd be ok with moving on from this staff.
Seriously, Candler Jones already had two (or three?) sacks already, so on a key 3rd down block him one-on-one? With a TE? Who’s our “catch-first and block if you have to” TE?!? So freakin stupid. One of the best guys really needs to question him about that.
Ellison had a TD catch and he actually is a tight end.
Agreed, I didn't even think about the not going for it on 4th and 2 last week when they went for it on 4th and 15, but that's a great point. That is just a massive disconnect in strategy. Punt on 4th and 15, try to get a stop and take your timeouts, at least you then get the ball back with reasonable field position only needing 3 points to tie it (which is a lot more doable with no timeouts than trying drive the length of the field for a TD with no timeouts).
Extremely low probability of converting a 4th and 15. Meanwhile, converting a 4th and 2 I believe is >50% chance. Unbelievable.
I think this is partially on the owner as well. Always wanting to make the safe hire. Afraid to step outside of the box. Why is there so much opposition to a young, progressive, creative coach?
I agree 100% Sure the Oline is not very good, but the Giants have a good amount of playmakers on offense to be successful. This is a game that should have been won at home against a bad team with a rookie QB! period. no excuses..
Zietler-Pro bowler and all pro in Cleveland. Regressed since he’s been here.
Remmers-Starting caliber player in Minnesota. Enormous regression since he’s been here.
Hill-Strong season as a rookie. Regressed this season. Playing out of position.
Tomlinson-Strong season as a rookie. Regress this season. Playing out of position.
My point is that these guys have played well at times. And proven it. Why all of a sudden are they regressing?
Add a position? Motivation? Development? Practice habits? All of that falls directly on coaching.
Exactly.. People are not realizing this? Why?? This should not be happening! Good coaches make players better period. They know how to utilize and put players in the right positions to succeed.. Why is it that the Patriots can lose a quality starter and the next guy plays like nothing has changed? BB has his players play on another level. Do you think Belichick would let Daniel Jones continue to have issues fumbling? Why hasn't this been addressed? It seems like its getting worse? Certain players like Davon Kennard & Okwara go to a different team and they have more success there? Quality coaches and their schemes make a big difference.
WE ALSO HAVE A ROOKIE QB. And that rookie was the one making the mistakes.
Murray made a few, but far less than Jones. What you are watching is the rookie learning curve in action. Jones will hopefully watch the tape of this, learn, and improve, because he played his worst game of the season.
And the OT position is a problem, they were dominated today.
The problem isn't Shurmur. On a good note, Jones made a number of tight window throws and huge 3rd down completions...just money throws to convert. That's not something you can teach, and he's shown a penchant for coming up with the tough play in 3rd and intermediate to long to extend drives repeatedly. I do think he's going to be very good. But he really had a problem with his internal clock today.
Expectations for this team is head-scratchingly high from this fan base. Rarely do you see a rookie come in and win right away. He will continue to mature as a QB, and I'm going to enjoy watching him, win or lose. At some point, you have to win, though, but my expectation for him winning was never THIS YEAR. Fans of this team need to manage their expectations better. The Giants are much better off than they were a year ago and even moreso two years ago.
The Cardinals have taken half a season to rebuld to the point where they can kick the shit out of the Giants.
The Giants are on a ten year rebuild plan. That was a bad loss yesterday riddled with errors. The pillow soft Giants also melted when the rain picked up.
Bottom feeders led by a HC with a brutal career record.
Sucks, that was a test on the state of the franchise yesterday. The Giants failed miserably.
So unless Slayton just ignored the coaches (which maybe we’ve found out and I just didn’t hear about it) then that is a prime example of piss poor coaching. Nobody reminds him of this before the kick?
In addition, as outlined in the original post:
-Rookie head coach
-Statistically a bottom 3 defense.
-A West Coast team, traveling east, playing a different time zone, for a 1 o’clock start.
-A team missing its best offense of weapon, David Johnson, and it’s most explosive pass catcher, Christian Kirk.
-Extra time to prepare due to the Thursday night game.
-Playing in the rain, against the warm weather, primarily passing “air raid” offense.
The more you think about this one, the worse it gets.
People kept using the “emperor has no pants” motif for McAdoo but man this guy sure does seem pant less as well almost all the time. I was big on hiring him after watching Minnesota but boy does he suck. Have to get a personality in here that commands people to do things the right way-who actually gets the message that his rb is limping off, who actually has a system in place where a coach might relay the message to Slayton to sit on that last kickoff. This guy is wingin it and the team is suffering.
Shurmur is a long line of successful coordinations who make lousy head coaches (Norv turner wade phillips Ray Rhodes). A different skill set is required.
Have to wonder about the OL - scouting and the position coach. How is it that with exception of Hernandez - this team has been unable to draft a solid, not all-pro or HOF offensive lineman in 15 friggin years? You drat Jones witha top 5 pick - and you put a line aournd him that allows 8 sacks and 12 hits?
The LB corps is mediocre. Lot of those runs yesteday were on the LBs. They missed Connelly. And, again - how manyquality starters have they drafted at the position? Carter?
Dropped passes and the inability to stay healthy by 1st round TE. Re-signed Shepard, who is having trouble staying on the field.
Huge question: What happened to Bettcher's ability to field a decent defense?
You may have nailed it there, he seems lost, totally in over his head!
However, that performance yesterday sure seems to lend credence to those who have been on Shurmur s Case, especially in regard to his seemingly inability to enact in game adjustments, or manage game situations.
In addition, as outlined in the original post:
-Rookie head coach
-Statistically a bottom 3 defense.
-A West Coast team, traveling east, playing a different time zone, for a 1 o’clock start.
-A team missing its best offense of weapon, David Johnson, and it’s most explosive pass catcher, Christian Kirk.
-Extra time to prepare due to the Thursday night game.
-Playing in the rain, against the warm weather, primarily passing “air raid” offense.
The more you think about this one, the worse it gets.
Bettcher is part of the problem. It’s raining and AZ is committing to the run so much that we can’t stop the RB? 3 TD over 20 yards each. He had Ximines as a DT on 3rd and 11. Not good
As I said when I advocated moving Jones into the starting lineup, it's as much about judging whether Shurmur is the right man for the job as it is about starting Jones' development. While there are still a lot of games left to be played, I can't imagine how anyone could be positive about Pat at this point.
Wasn't Vince Lombardy hired by Green Bay as an HC after proving himself as an Offensive Coordinator for the Giants?
Much like Shurmur's success as OC at Minnesota?
Shurmur is a loser as a head coach, there's no sign of it going otherwise. He's a got a below average roster to work with, but plenty of demonstrated evidence on his own that he stinks as the man. Gets outcoached weekly by a significant margin.
Quote:
Hired another guy with no HC success at any level- in fact quite the contrary. You were expecting Vince Lombardi?
Wasn't Vince Lombardy hired by Green Bay as an HC after proving himself as an Offensive Coordinator for the Giants?
Much like Shurmur's success as OC at Minnesota?
You missed the 'contrary' part - Shurmur did have a record at the HC level, and it wasn't good.
They'd tell Chris Mara that whatever he's been doing for the team, whether it's pulling the strings or sitting the background and watching, is over.
They'd start interviewing a series of external candidates and get their views on how they'd fix the Giants, and spend more time evaluating responses than how well they'd integrate to the existing structure.
They'd wait until the end of the season and move - move out the scouting department, Abrams, Gettleman, Shurmur - clean out the whole lot. They've been taking half measures now for almost a decade - a coordinator here, a HC there, a GM - it's time to flush the whole operation and start from scratch.
Figure out who this new person will be, hand him the keys, tell him he gets 3 years. Then back out and let him do his job. Cut the BS press conferences where you answer questions about football moves, limit your public statements and evaluation to the guy you handed the keys to.
It won't happen, but it desperately needs to happen.
Isnt that what happened?
Get the guy some talent so he can show what he can do before you write him off for not doing well enough in a year you knew you weren't go to do well regardless.
When can we judge him? When he has an all pro roster? This is the NFL and you are judge by your record. He is a career loser.
What does Shurmur do well?
Gettleman isn't the problem here.
I agree with the OP. Shurmur is still displaying the same issues on game day that he did in Cleveland. And Bettcher seems to have just been the benefactor of a very talented crew in Arizona, much like Spags was here in 2007/2008.
They make a lot of other players & coaches a lot of money. They keep people fed.
I was a Shurmur supporter until yesterday. That was a must win for me - or at least a great coaching performance in a loss. He doesn’t have it & he’s a poor fit for the style of play the Giants should be using.
Last week it was short week against the champs with a depleted roster, so let’s take solace in a moral victory. How about this week then? Arizona was coming cross country for an early game, having given up big performances to opposing TE’s, and Shurmur couldn’t devise anything to get EE more looks? Jones still had to force throws even though he had all but one of his weapons. That’s the most frustrating thing, Shurmur is obviously a lousy in-game manager, but he’s a lousy play caller as well, and that was his supposed strength. You can’t replace an entire roster, that will take 5 years, might as well change coaches and hope for a Rams-like turnaround.
Who hired Shurmur? The Easter Bunny?
If I weren't "locked" into two fantasy leagues (with friends and family), I probably would fully tune out altogether.
Shurmur is such a bad game manager, it's almost unbelievable. He is so bad at it, despite having over three years of experience doing it. This is a guy who impressed ownership so much they named him head coach? What does that tell you about ownership? Especially after the McAdoo flameout?
You can't fire ownership. If this is what we're stuck with, maybe there's no reason to stick around.
Quote:
Gettleman isn't the problem here.
Who hired Shurmur? The Easter Bunny?
Gettleman is doing fine in other aspects of his job. Hiring Shurmur is not reason enough for him to be fired. However, if the next guy he brings in doesn't get the job done, then yeah - it might be time for him to go too.
Quote:
Gettleman isn't the problem here.
Who hired Shurmur? The Easter Bunny?
Also, what has anyone seen that inspires confidence in the players Gettlemen has either selected or signed? Talent still looks well below league average. Have the Cardinals rebuilt in half a season to the point where they can push the giants around in a road game? Outside of an injured running back, I can’t see anyone of his picks that has been consistently impressive, and we are all ready to declare Gettlemen a success.
Quote:
Gettleman isn't the problem here.
Who hired Shurmur? The Easter Bunny?
I think Mara is way, way more involved than some people think.
Do have major issues with wasting a TO with 4 min left, running on 3rd and 18, then going for it on 3rd and 15.
Go for it on 4th and 10 or less. Not 15.
He needs to delegate play calling duties but won't do it......going to end up getting him fired.
Quote:
In comment 14638114 Brown Recluse said:
Quote:
Gettleman isn't the problem here.
Who hired Shurmur? The Easter Bunny?
Also, what has anyone seen that inspires confidence in the players Gettlemen has either selected or signed? Talent still looks well below league average. Have the Cardinals rebuilt in half a season to the point where they can push the giants around in a road game? Outside of an injured running back, I can’t see anyone of his picks that has been consistently impressive, and we are all ready to declare Gettlemen a success.
"Well below league average" is a big exaggeration. They are missing talent at key spots and when your coaches don't know how to utilize that talent - it makes them look even worse.
But if you don't think he's drafted some nice building blocks then you either aren't watching, are too stupid to see talent when is there, or are just being obtuse because you have an axe to grind.
Lots of younger coaches finding success. Why is that you may ask? Because outside of a select few the game has passed many of these older guys by and hiring a retread is foolish. The game is significantly different than it was even ten years ago.
The game management mistakes that you see from older coaches you don't being made by the younger guys. I know people poo poo it, but the way Madden is set up with short quarters it magnifies the importance of end game management. Than you do it over and over again, and practice makes perfect.
TC was a great coach, but he was done in by some awful game management, and its under a microscope now because you see less and less guys making these mistakes as the old guard retires and the Madden generation settles in. There are too many games that are won and loss this way in the NFL and the analytics available only make it easier.
But if you don't think he's drafted some nice building blocks then you either aren't watching, are too stupid to see talent when is there, or are just being obtuse because you have an axe to grind.
Well, you seem to have some form of vision the rest of us don't - so please explain where all this talent was yesterday when the Cardinals came across country for an early game and managed to push the Giants all over the field.
Or was it all just Pat Shurmur's doing?
All I've ever seen is that they operate by committee - where has this been documented?
I've always believed Shurmur was Mara's hire. Though it looked like we may have dodged a bullet, I think Gettleman would have brought in Wilkes if it were 100% his decision.
Well known, well documented, no proof.
Of course, do a quick search and all you'll find are Gettleman quotes about how this job 'isn't too big' for Shurmur.
So, if you're keeping a running tally at home - Gettleman gets a pass because of Reese, Mara not letting him hire a coach, and forcing him to keep Eli.
Makes you wonder what Gettleman does with all the free time he has from not running the team.
On the other side of the ball, we don't have one dynamic playmaker. Golden is our best pass rusher. He got no sacks and three tackles. Jenkins is thinking about sitting on a beach somewhere. Peppers is fine, but is that enough?
All the young guys on this team could turn out to be great, and the Giants could be in good shape starting next year or the year after. Or they could be just as good as we're seeing now, in which case they're sunk.
Have to wonder about the OL - scouting and the position coach. How is it that with exception of Hernandez - this team has been unable to draft a solid, not all-pro or HOF offensive lineman in 15 friggin years? You drat Jones witha top 5 pick - and you put a line aournd him that allows 8 sacks and 12 hits?
The LB corps is mediocre. Lot of those runs yesteday were on the LBs. They missed Connelly. And, again - how manyquality starters have they drafted at the position? Carter?
Dropped passes and the inability to stay healthy by 1st round TE. Re-signed Shepard, who is having trouble staying on the field.
Huge question: What happened to Bettcher's ability to field a decent defense?
Well we did draft two guys named Snee and Diehl that were very good for a long time and Jones was not top 5 pick, just saying AND I do get your point btw
Hate? No.
Hold him accountable for the decisions he's made that are currently backfiring? Yes.
He is largely responsible for the state of this team. That includes Shurmur. If he didn't want him - he was just hired, he obviously had enough clout that he could have gone to Mara and said 'wait, not this guy'.
We actually had more first downs than them and out gained them. Their QB had 104 yards passing.
What we didn't do was hold onto the ball or stop a scrub RB from getting the corner several times.
This was a game we should have won if we had better clock management, better field awareness and cut down the drops. The sequence at the end of the half where we took ourselves out of FG range was pathetic.
Then we had two chances to either tie or take the lead in the last 5 minutes and shit the bed.
But let's not make this out to be us getting dominated. Shurmur had a big hand in this defeat, but we could have and should have won the game.
Reese wasn't in position to make any waves at that point - he was on shaky ground, with the others holding him and TC responsible for the team's performance and probably narrowly avoiding giving him the pink slip as well.
Gettleman was just in the door, and they had no HC. I don't doubt that Mara and Tisch played a part - if not a large part - in hiring Shurmur, I just find it impossible that if Gettleman had a problem with Shurmur they'd proceed with the hire anyway.
We actually had more first downs than them and out gained them. Their QB had 104 yards passing.
What we didn't do was hold onto the ball or stop a scrub RB from getting the corner several times.
This was a game we should have won if we had better clock management, better field awareness and cut down the drops. The sequence at the end of the half where we took ourselves out of FG range was pathetic.
Then we had two chances to either tie or take the lead in the last 5 minutes and shit the bed.
But let's not make this out to be us getting dominated. Shurmur had a big hand in this defeat, but we could have and should have won the game.
They ran all over the Giants, and the Giants couldn't run to save their lives despite having Barkley back.
They lost that game at the LOS. Call it whatever you want statistically, the fact that Murray didn't pass much doesn't mean anything when they could run at will.
We actually had more first downs than them and out gained them. Their QB had 104 yards passing.
What we didn't do was hold onto the ball or stop a scrub RB from getting the corner several times.
This was a game we should have won if we had better clock management, better field awareness and cut down the drops. The sequence at the end of the half where we took ourselves out of FG range was pathetic.
Then we had two chances to either tie or take the lead in the last 5 minutes and shit the bed.
But let's not make this out to be us getting dominated. Shurmur had a big hand in this defeat, but we could have and should have won the game.
The 14 points we scored offensively for the game would not have been enough to overcome the 17 points they scored in the first half. As far as I can tell, causing turnovers, getting 8 sacks (two of which came when the Giants were trying to go down the field to win) and running for 20 yard touchdowns are a pretty good indication you're beating the other team. Did it ever feel to you like the Giants were in this game? Because it didn't to me.
Unless the coach is in place when the GM arrives, a different set of circumstances, the GM is building the team in his image. Mara certainly has final signature, but that’s a formality. Shurmur is 100% on Gettleman.
One other thing...
It’s starting to look like Gettleman made two draft mistakes - Barkley and Jones. Because right now Jones is trending the wrong direction. And rapidly.
They had three runs where they exploited the back 7 for 20+ yard TD's. Other than that - the offense was ineffective. In fact, when they tried to close out the game, they couldn't get first downs to do so and lost yardage.
Their DL dominated our OL.
We had chances to win that game. A combination of terrible clock management, poor OL blocking, Jones holding the ball too long and questionable playcalling was the tipping point.
Those were two bad, pretty evenly matched teams and even after spotting them 17 points, we should have won. I still don't know how we didn't have a FG try at the end of the half.
This game has turned my opinion of Shurmur, because it was a winnable game and we looked like we didn't have the first idea how to go about taking control in the 4th.
Quote:
But if you don't think he's drafted some nice building blocks then you either aren't watching, are too stupid to see talent when is there, or are just being obtuse because you have an axe to grind.
Well, you seem to have some form of vision the rest of us don't - so please explain where all this talent was yesterday when the Cardinals came across country for an early game and managed to push the Giants all over the field.
Or was it all just Pat Shurmur's doing?
I don't have any unique insight. Its just simple commmon sense. And "the rest of you" is really only a loud minority on this site with an axe to grind because Gettleman doesn't do things the way you want them done, doesn't answer media questions you want them answered, and doesn't draft the players you want him to draft. Half the stuff I read from a lot of you doesn't even make any sense at all. Its just bitching about whatever pops into your head at any given moment, whether its logical or not.
Do you really believe this defense is as bad as it looks from a talent perspective, or do you not see how the majority of its faults lie with the way that talent is utilized? I'm not saying the talent level is elite. I'm not saying it doesn't require upgrades. But its not awful. Bettcher makes it look worse than it really is.
The same goes for the offense. As I said before, the offense should be going through Barkley. You mentioned that he doesn't have good run blockers. Thats 100% inaccurate. He is running the ball just fine. He's averaging over 5 yards per carry. He needs it more often and he needs more attention in the passing game as well. This is an issue thats been going on since last season. That is coaching. Yes, we need new tackles. This isn't a secret. Solder looks like toast and Remmers was a bandaid signing who's been up and down. They were the best options available at the time. But if you know your protection is weak, do something else. Help them out. Again, coaching.
Terps has been all over it.
They had three runs where they exploited the back 7 for 20+ yard TD's. Other than that - the offense was ineffective. In fact, when they tried to close out the game, they couldn't get first downs to do so and lost yardage.
Their DL dominated our OL.
We had chances to win that game. A combination of terrible clock management, poor OL blocking, Jones holding the ball too long and questionable playcalling was the tipping point.
Those were two bad, pretty evenly matched teams and even after spotting them 17 points, we should have won. I still don't know how we didn't have a FG try at the end of the half.
This game has turned my opinion of Shurmur, because it was a winnable game and we looked like we didn't have the first idea how to go about taking control in the 4th.
A second stringer from Fordham of all places ran for 126 yards. What would running at will look like? He ran both TDs behind Justin Pugh, for whatever that's worth either.
did we miss an easy FG that would've helped?
When you have chances to win the game and fail, you aren't dominated. You are likely outcoached.
did we miss an easy FG that would've helped?
When you have chances to win the game and fail, you aren't dominated. You are likely outcoached.
If us plebes can see it hopefully DG does too. I really think we got saddled in our head coaching search by telling the next guy they have to go with Eli like Eric said. The three choices we had were totally uninspiring.
The correct call is an easy call there, you try to pick up 8-10 yards through the air. Likely case? You pick up about 10 yards against a soft zone and give yourself a makeable 4th down. Best case? Same as with the draw, your playmaker makes a play and picks up some YAC for the first. Worst case? Incomplete pass, you save your timeouts and have the ability to punt because the clock is stopped and you can comfortably get your punt unit on the field.
He left himself no outs with that call, so when things did not go according to plan on 3rd down, he had no choice but to ride it out. I don't think he thought through his contingencies there.
Heading into the KR, I was shocked that the Cards had kicked it into the endzone with the Giants so close to the 2 minute warning. I was even more shocked that Slayton took it out. As bad as that result was, it was about 2 seconds away from costing us the 2 minute warning as well, which would have been even more disastrous. He's not thinking these decisions all the way through.
Quote:
twice in the final 5 minutes with a chance to tie or win the game? Did the Cards lose yardage both times they tried to "run out the clock"?
did we miss an easy FG that would've helped?
When you have chances to win the game and fail, you aren't dominated. You are likely outcoached.
If us plebes can see it hopefully DG does too. I really think we got saddled in our head coaching search by telling the next guy they have to go with Eli like Eric said. The three choices we had were totally uninspiring.
Thats entirely possible. Which points to Mara - who really is to blame for all of this to begin with.
There’s just a glaring lack of attention to details everywhere we look, including the front office.
We actually had more first downs than them and out gained them. Their QB had 104 yards passing.
What we didn't do was hold onto the ball or stop a scrub RB from getting the corner several times.
This was a game we should have won if we had better clock management, better field awareness and cut down the drops. The sequence at the end of the half where we took ourselves out of FG range was pathetic.
Then we had two chances to either tie or take the lead in the last 5 minutes and shit the bed.
But let's not make this out to be us getting dominated. Shurmur had a big hand in this defeat, but we could have and should have won the game.
Exactly. That is what is beyond frustrating. A competent coaching staff annihilates that team yesterday at home.
I'm sure Shurmur's no great shakes either - don't make this out to be a defense of him in any way.
But I've seen the same thing repeated over and over again on BBI when the outcome of games look close and people extrapolate that to 'they should have won'.
The Cards had a small lead going into the end of the game, but they played extremely conservative knowing that the Giants offense was not a threat to do anything. They were incapable of holding the Cards pass rush at bay, and weren't able to open up holes for Barkley to run.
Barkley even managing what he did was a credit to his ability, given that he was often met with blockers a yard or two into the backfield.
Go Terps : 12:05 am : link : reply
I've asked some version of this question several times this past couple weeks, and haven't gotten an answer:
Where are the data experts that are assisting the coaching staff with critical game management decisions? What is the process for making these decisions?
In light of today's clusterfuck starting with the colossally stupid timeout at 4:38, it's fair to ask why this team isn't going to the same lengths other teams are to get their decisions right.
Interesting points. However decisions did not lose this game. It was the blocking and tackling.
EE should have been used more often but he also missed quite a few passes yesterday for whatever reason. I think he missed 4 balls. Should DJ keep feeding him and hope it suddenly clicks? I dunno.
I was going to start a thread, but didn't have to cuz you made every point I was going to make.
All I will offer is to those who remember all the noise to get rid of Coughlin. What was it that led you to this conclusion? At least Tom had previous success in Jax.
This doofus doesn't have any record of success as a HC, and also doesn't come across as up or fiery or seem to admit any accountability on why they lost.
Remember Tom? "We lost its on me. It starts with me." This guy, "penalties, turnovers, missed field goals, etc. etc." Tom would bring in motivational speakers to talk to the team, take them bowling in season, try different leadership tactics to get the team motivated. Doofus made all the right calls. We just didn't execute.
He may not be saying it outright, but he is saying its on the players. MR Mara maybe these players don't want to play for him.
Engram 1
Shep 2
DJ 1
Barkley 1
OL 13.32% of 2019 Sal cap. (per sport trac)
Tate was suspended 4 games and Shep has been in and out, 3 games without barkley, but this offense otherwise has had there key players available.
Just don't see urgency, accountability, creativity, discipline, or overall enjoyment. Only exception is Barkley.
In closing. If you are an offensive minded coach, call the plays, are running your system, have Shula holding your clipboard, don't have a QB coach, have a healthy OL, Elite weapons like Barkley, Engram, Shep, experience in Golden Tate, have had 10 days to ready for the opponent, are at home, your opponent has to fly cross country, has one of the worst ranked defenses, have a mobile QB who is supposedly accurate with the ball how don't you have the self awareness in the post game presser to say "I have to do a better job".
Seems I now know what a Browns fan feels like. He has brought the stink of the Cleveland browns to East Rutherford.
In addition, as outlined in the original post:
-Rookie head coach
-Statistically a bottom 3 defense.
-A West Coast team, traveling east, playing a different time zone, for a 1 o’clock start.
-A team missing its best offense of weapon, David Johnson, and it’s most explosive pass catcher, Christian Kirk.
-Extra time to prepare due to the Thursday night game.
-Playing in the rain, against the warm weather, primarily passing “air raid” offense.
The more you think about this one, the worse it gets.
Chase Edmonds was their best offensive weapon yesterday and he's not a scrub. None of the above matters when your players don't execute. That whole extra time to prepare stuff is way overblown, too. The team did not pass protect, the OL was overwhelmed. DJ played his worst game trying to play hero ball. The receivers didn't get open for the most part, and the defense couldn't handle Edmonds' and Murray's speed. The linebacker play after losing Connelly has really suffered, and that will continue to be a problem all year long.
And Chandler Jones dominated our OL yesterday. Completely dominated. He had 4 sacks, and that's just getting your butt kicked repeatedly by a better player. That's on Mike Remmers, who was supposed to stabilize that RT position. He got his ass handed to him. Zeitler hand to help him repeatedly, and even with the double, Jones was still pushing the pocket.
That said, there has been a lot of improvement since Shurmur took over. The offense doesn't look completely dysfunctional like it did under McAdoo. We actually throw for first downs now, not completions for 3 yards on 3rd and 8. This team will get better, I do believe that Jones will get better, and as he improves in the mental aspect of the game, the Giants will also get a lot better. But they are going to need to address some positions where there are clear talent deficiencies that are hindering the execution. I sure hope there is something bothering Remmers and that he just needs a bye week to heal up. Because if this is the best we can expect from him, they need a RT pronto. And they also need to get a LT, because Solder isn't as good as he once was, and usually when that trend starts it doesn't stop. They can unload him after this season with a $13 million dead cap hit spread over two seasons, or one last rodeo next year, but I don't think he'll be hear the year after.
And this team is suffering from not having credible receiving threats. They need a strong player on the outside who can hurt teams one on one, and they don't have that right now, and it's showing. If they had someone defenses had to account for on the outside, it would help the entire offense and likely soften up the defense in the middle of the field. So they have to look at linebacker, pass rusher, wide receiver, and both tackle spots. It's a big shopping list but I think Gettleman can get most of that done by week 1 next season. He's shown to have an eye for good players in the draft, and the Giants will have some flexibility to get players in free agency. If Dallas doesn't pay Amari Cooper I would get him a lot of money to get him here. But there are a lot of guys right now on track to be UFAs, and the Giants need to be active, and I'm sure they will be.
Quote:
stop with the comments that the Cardinals came across the country and pushed the giants all over the field.
We actually had more first downs than them and out gained them. Their QB had 104 yards passing.
What we didn't do was hold onto the ball or stop a scrub RB from getting the corner several times.
This was a game we should have won if we had better clock management, better field awareness and cut down the drops. The sequence at the end of the half where we took ourselves out of FG range was pathetic.
Then we had two chances to either tie or take the lead in the last 5 minutes and shit the bed.
But let's not make this out to be us getting dominated. Shurmur had a big hand in this defeat, but we could have and should have won the game.
Exactly. That is what is beyond frustrating. A competent coaching staff annihilates that team yesterday at home.
Would a competent coaching staff been able to get Remmers to block Chandler Jones? They gave him help, they got physically whipped in the trenches on both sides of the ball, you could see it. Coaches aren't changing the fact that the players got physically whipped.
I wish I understood the thought process by which people simply refuse to say anything critical. At least in Coughlin's case he had a track record of consistent excellence and winning.
Understanding the "Cult of Gettleman" may have to start by wondering why people seemingly act like the guy only entered football last year and dismiss anything else he had accomplished.
Part of the questioning is not Gettleman's fault. Jawn is the one that came out and said Gettleman was hired because "he knows the way we operate" which for some is code for permitting Jawn to continue his amateur hour involvement in personnel matters. It may be an unfair characterization but there it is.
It's also fair to comment on his coaching hire, his free agent signings and the method by which he has gone about building a team and to point out that it is a little unusual to get rid of practically every decent player there was on the team and then using draft picks and trades to go and fill all of the same positions. It is kind of a novel way to go about business to reduce a team to expansion team status in order to try and build it back up.
Quote:
I wish I understood the thought process by which people simply refuse to say anything critical. At least in Coughlin's case he had a track record of consistent excellence and winning.
Understanding the "Cult of Gettleman" may have to start by wondering why people seemingly act like the guy only entered football last year and dismiss anything else he had accomplished.
It's a correction to the reckless praise with which he rode into town with. "built a super bowl contender from thin air". "He's gonna build it the old fashioned way".
"I know what I'm doing, junior." "This isn't my first rodeo." etc, etc, etc.
Hell, bw and some of you other guys were fawning all over Dorsey!
Hell, bw and some of you other guys were fawning all over Dorsey!
There's an element of truth there - Gettleman gets discounted because he's a former Giant. Fair or not, the familiarity with the organization and the reluctance to break from some of their old ways is going to be held against him.
During the search that led to Shurmer I think I said Mike Munchack as HC a O line guy and I think it was Chris Morgan OL coach of Falcons as OC.
Those guys are probably still available.
Also, Matt Patricia, you guys laughed at his personal grooming habits ...he's up next ....so....
Hell, bw and some of you other guys were fawning all over Dorsey!
Hell, bw and some of you other guys were fawning all over Dorsey!
I was?
This game has turned my opinion of Shurmur, because it was a winnable game and we looked like we didn't have the first idea how to go about taking control in the 4th.
Small steps I guess... Welcome to the Anti-Shurmur club!
Next up for you is the anti-Gettleman club.
I wish I understood the thought process by which people simply refuse to say anything critical. At least in Coughlin's case he had a track record of consistent excellence and winning.
Sounds to me you'd be happier as a Redskin fan where changing coaches is the solution all the time.
Quote:
To the cult of Dave Gettleman.
I wish I understood the thought process by which people simply refuse to say anything critical. At least in Coughlin's case he had a track record of consistent excellence and winning.
Sounds to me you'd be happier as a Redskin fan where changing coaches is the solution all the time.
No I think you mistake
people who can recognize the signs of a sinking ship and are looking for another way.
vs.
people who remain in denial about the ship going down and end up drowning and wondering why.
Quote:
In comment 14639267 Ten Ton Hammer said:
Quote:
To the cult of Dave Gettleman.
I wish I understood the thought process by which people simply refuse to say anything critical. At least in Coughlin's case he had a track record of consistent excellence and winning.
Sounds to me you'd be happier as a Redskin fan where changing coaches is the solution all the time.
No I think you mistake
people who can recognize the signs of a sinking ship and are looking for another way.
vs.
people who remain in denial about the ship going down and end up drowning and wondering why.
The ship isn't even built yet and is still in drydock...that's the part you're not getting.
Quote:
In comment 14639940 mrvax said:
Quote:
In comment 14639267 Ten Ton Hammer said:
Quote:
To the cult of Dave Gettleman.
I wish I understood the thought process by which people simply refuse to say anything critical. At least in Coughlin's case he had a track record of consistent excellence and winning.
Sounds to me you'd be happier as a Redskin fan where changing coaches is the solution all the time.
No I think you mistake
people who can recognize the signs of a sinking ship and are looking for another way.
vs.
people who remain in denial about the ship going down and end up drowning and wondering why.
The ship isn't even built yet and is still in drydock...that's the part you're not getting.
Like I said, some just remain in denial. Ok... the ship is crumbling in drydock... Is that better for you?
Quote:
In comment 14640209 .McL. said:
Quote:
In comment 14639940 mrvax said:
Quote:
In comment 14639267 Ten Ton Hammer said:
Quote:
To the cult of Dave Gettleman.
I wish I understood the thought process by which people simply refuse to say anything critical. At least in Coughlin's case he had a track record of consistent excellence and winning.
Sounds to me you'd be happier as a Redskin fan where changing coaches is the solution all the time.
No I think you mistake
people who can recognize the signs of a sinking ship and are looking for another way.
vs.
people who remain in denial about the ship going down and end up drowning and wondering why.
The ship isn't even built yet and is still in drydock...that's the part you're not getting.
Like I said, some just remain in denial. Ok... the ship is crumbling in drydock... Is that better for you?
You're impatient. This isn't a completed team. This is a work in progress. You're complaining we're not sailing when the ship is still being built and saying we are crumbling now. Ridiculous. ROOKIE QBs TAKE TIME TO SEASON. FFS. This is absolutely normal and it's an investment in the future of the franchise. You have to acknowledge we are 1 and a half seasons away from one of the worst 53 man rosters in the NFL with one of the worst starting QBs in the NFL. Turning that around doesn't happen in one season, and this team is markedly better than where it was in 2017. So no, it is not crumbling, it is trending in a positive direction and the rebuild is happening. You need to wait. I'm going to enjoy it when we do start winning.