I’m still trying to digest exactly what happened today. I’m also trying not to have an emotional response, and make any snap judgments. I’m sure some of this is frustration coming through, and some is just venting, but today was concerning.
In my humble opinion, which isn't worth much, this loss is inexcusable. Completely on the coaching staff. You have 10 days to prepare for a team with a rookie quarterback and a rookie head coach traveling completely across the country, and playing in a different time zone. A team missing its best offensive weapon, running back David Johnson, and their most explosive pass catcher, Christian Kirk.
Penalties. Dropped passes. Missed tackles. Blown assignments. Poor play calling. Busted coverages. Missed opportunities. Wash, rinse, repeat. Every week, unprepared.
I don't get it. Shurmur is supposed to be an offensive of guru. Where is the creativity? Where is the unique playcalling? How come we aren't getting the ball into the hands of our dynamic play makers in multiple ways? Where are the adjustments? One of the comments that Mara made when he was hired was that it’s nice to have an adult in the building. What good is an adult that makes poor decisions, and is a weak in-game coach? The poor decision making. The failed challenges. Maybe he’s overwhelmed. Maybe the job is too big for him.
So far, Arizona has allowed a quarterback passer rating of over 100 every quarterback they played. Except Jones. 78.
So far, Arizona has given up either 100 yards receiving, or a touchdown every single tight end they played. Except today. 1 catch for 6 yards for Engram.
Arizona’s defense was ranked 29 on the year, and all they can muster is 14 offensive points?
Arizona had 3 takeaways through their first 6 games. They had 3 total today. Arizona had 14 sacks through the first 6 games. They had 8 today.
They lost to Minnesota and New England. I get that. They'll lose to Green Bay and Detroit. I get that. But this is the type of game you'd like to see some progress. Instead it looks like they're going backwards.
Yet another season that is over before Halloween.
I've read on BBI that it's entirely on the coaches - as if to somehow absolve the FO for responsibility for the selection of the coaches themselves.
I've also seen where Bettcher's being blamed for the 3-4 - as if somehow, this wasn't brought up during his interview prior to his hiring either.
And that's without getting into the shit personnel on the team.
This is a multi-faceted failure - and everyone's hands are dirty, from Mara on down to the ST coach. Nobody's walking away from this clusterfuck clean.
I think this is partially on the owner as well. Always wanting to make the safe hire. Afraid to step outside of the box. Why is there so much opposition to a young, progressive, creative coach?
I think this is partially on the owner as well. Always wanting to make the safe hire. Afraid to step outside of the box. Why is there so much opposition to a young, progressive, creative coach?
Why do you go out of your way to deflect blame from Gettleman?
Do you think he wasn't responsible for hiring Shurmur? Or from retaining Eli despite all signs pointing to him being finished before this year ever started?
How about the OL "rebuild" - that's not coaching, you see players losing 1:1 battles on a regular basis, including the highest paid player on the roster in Solder and the second overall pick in the second round in Hernandez. Thus far this season, they're even worse than Reese's OLs were, and that's saying something.
Does Gettleman have to turn up with a dead hooker in his trunk before some here are willing to hold him accountable for anything?
Their QB and offensive scheme had Shurmer/Bettcher crapping in their pants......I heard Shurmer say they mostly stopped the running attack today...just a few big ones....that is akin to a manager after a pitcher giving up 3 grand slams....well aside from those grand slams......................
IMO coaches cannot be this much of a problem, that's true. But add in EE's huge drop. DJ ran into several of those sacks if not simply held the ball way too long. Barkley seemed to miss a few protection assignments, and even a few mis-reads in terms of holes & blocks. The D well...usually it's avoid big plays in the pass game, i guess it's even more obvious & necessary to stop chunk runs go figure. You might give AZ's play-caller credit, but seems like any run call worked just the same
The key is improvement. Certainly the coaches should have a short leash - even a mandate for development / improvement or they're out when game 16 ends. And hope to show better than that against another weaker team. But this was always going to be a rough year
How about the defensive line? There's one credible pass rusher on this team - Golden, who's on a one year prove it deal. He likely could be gone after this season. Everyone else behind him can't rush the passer for shit. The Cards ran the ball at will against the Giants. The strength of the Giants DL, the interior line - couldn't do diddly.
The Giants aren't a good team. They're poorly coached. The talent isn't very good. They have one player who could be great in Barkley, a couple of players who could be very good in Engram and Lawrence, and a lot of question marks who could go either way. They've massively overpaid for an OLT who's terrible, and their FA acquisitions the past couple of seasons have been brutal.
I think it is the talent on this team that is what is keeping them in games like today and last week, despite the inept coaching.
As far as the Manning situation, I have no evidence, but I’m almost certain that decision came down from ownership.
And speaking of ownership, I think after the failed McAdoo experiment, Mara wanted a safe hire. Unfortunately, it looks like it’s turning out to be a terrible hire. Not sure how much blame to put on Gettleman there.
As far as the line, obviously far from perfect. I do think that the playcalling and the protections are not helping this line though.
While Gettleman isn’t perfect, he walked into an absolutely atrocious situation. He needs some time to accumulate players.
Shurmer,, is the worst play caller/clock manager since Barry Switzer, who accomplished it all on cruise control.
I'm not in the lockeroom, but PS looks to passive to me and what this team needs is someone to push them.
This team came out after a week and a half, home game versus a beatable team and a chance to get to 3-4 and second place tie and looked blahhhh.
He clearly is not the right guy for any turnaround. All the guy does is lose. At historic levels.
I think it is the talent on this team that is what is keeping them in games like today and last week, despite the inept coaching.
As far as the Manning situation, I have no evidence, but I’m almost certain that decision came down from ownership.
And speaking of ownership, I think after the failed McAdoo experiment, Mara wanted a safe hire. Unfortunately, it looks like it’s turning out to be a terrible hire. Not sure how much blame to put on Gettleman there.
As far as the line, obviously far from perfect. I do think that the playcalling and the protections are not helping this line though.
While Gettleman isn’t perfect, he walked into an absolutely atrocious situation. He needs some time to accumulate players.
That's some mighty fine denial you have going on. Basically:
- Despite the absence of any proof, Gettleman was forced to retain Eli and hire Shurmur
- Despite the OL clearly losing 1:1 battles on a regular basis, you consider the coaching to be more likely to blame than the talent.
- The situation he entered was 'atrocious' - yet you believe he's made solid drafts, using the same scouting department that was in operation and responsible for said atrocity.
- In summation it's all on the coaches, and since Gettleman's not responsible for the coaches, none of this is his fault.
So what does Gettleman actually do in your eyes - get coffee for Mara?
They’ll give him at least another year. A full year with Jones.
I’m starting to have a feeling that Mara would rather do the easy thing and lose, than make the tough decisions and win.
I am not in favor of keeping mediocrity I just know that lousy teams keep firing coaches.
Will there be someone out there that is a no brainer, because if not the devil you know may be better than the next jerk of the street
So you think it was Gettleman’s idea to continue to trot Manning out there? Without the blessing of the owner and the head coach?
And yes, I do think that the general manager has a large role in the selection of players. Even if he carries over a large portion of the scouting department.
I am not in favor of keeping mediocrity I just know that lousy teams keep firing coaches.
Will there be someone out there that is a no brainer, because if not the devil you know may be better than the next jerk of the street
Lousy teams keep firing coaches because they're lousy from top to bottom, it's not the firing of the coaches that makes them lousy.
The Giants are not a good team, from the owner on down. Retaining Shurmur for an extra season or two won't fix that.
So you think it was Gettleman’s idea to continue to trot Manning out there? Without the blessing of the owner and the head coach?
And yes, I do think that the general manager has a large role in the selection of players. Even if he carries over a large portion of the scouting department.
Where's the upgraded talent? He sold a bill of goods - a return to ground and pound football by bolstering the line of scrimmage on both sides. The OL is just as bad, if not worse than it was before - and the DL is definitely worse.
Barkley's a dynamic player - but he was acquired with the 2nd overall pick. I think anyone could agree you SHOULD come away with a dynamic player at #2 overall.
Beyond that - I don't see where the grand influx of talent came from. A lot of young guys you can't declare as busts, but thus far - nothing in the way of production.
As far as Manning and Shurmur - I think if you're misguided enough to believe Gettleman wasn't onboard, then in your eyes the Giants are actually worse off since the GM isn't managing a damn thing. I don't think that's the case though - as is evident by the stopgaps attempted in year 1 when they thought a few quick fixes might result in a quicker return to winning (an obvious miscalculation of the so-called atrocity).
Where are the data experts that are assisting the coaching staff with critical game management decisions? What is the process for making these decisions?
In light of today's clusterfuck starting with the colossally stupid timeout at 4:38, it's fair to ask why this team isn't going to the same lengths other teams are to get their decisions right.
The Giants aren't trying to win, they're hoping to win. And on those rare occasions they actually win, they don't know why they won. When they lose, they don't know why they lost.
This is a team lost at sea, in a state of complete crisis from top to bottom.
Zietler-Pro bowler and all pro in Cleveland. Regressed since he’s been here.
Remmers-Starting caliber player in Minnesota. Enormous regression since he’s been here.
Hill-Strong season as a rookie. Regressed this season. Playing out of position.
Tomlinson-Strong season as a rookie. Regress this season. Playing out of position.
My point is that these guys have played well at times. And proven it. Why all of a sudden are they regressing?
Add a position? Motivation? Development? Practice habits? All of that falls directly on coaching.
It really is quite possible that he hasn't, at least by any meaningful measure.
Get the guy some talent so he can show what he can do before you write him off for not doing well enough in a year you knew you weren't go to do well regardless.
This is not hyperbole-today may have been one of the worst coached professional football games I’ve ever seen.
His decision making was terrible time after time after time. Full of blunders. And even after all that, they were still in it. Why? Because they have some (not all, but some) guys on the roster who can play.
The obvious is clock management the use of player personal .
His challenge use . His demeanor his body language .
His game planning . Just listen to his locker room speeches
post game he talks to these men like they are a pee wee
squad . The guy does not inspire anyone even when they are
playing halfway decent you don't see guys huddled around
a leader . I do think they play hard for Betcher but we
have zero speed on defense nor do we have a legitimate
hard hitting LB that can affect the run game and forget
Free safety he does mop up duty thats why he leads the team in tackles not because he is a rangy hard hitting force in the secondary he is done period .
Jones seems to have the arm strength and pretty good accuracy but he doesn't read the field well and hangs onto the ball far too long and I don't see the offensive scheme
helping him at all . The O-line had there worst game of the
season they could not run block at all and the pass blocking deteriorated as the game progressed Barkley was eliminated early and he looked to be 70% of what he is .
This is looking like a 3-5 win team right now and I don't
think its all on the players .
Zietler-Pro bowler and all pro in Cleveland. Regressed since he’s been here.
Remmers-Starting caliber player in Minnesota. Enormous regression since he’s been here.
Hill-Strong season as a rookie. Regressed this season. Playing out of position.
Tomlinson-Strong season as a rookie. Regress this season. Playing out of position.
My point is that these guys have played well at times. And proven it. Why all of a sudden are they regressing?
Add a position? Motivation? Development? Practice habits? All of that falls directly on coaching.
Solder - how many times have you seen guys NE let go turn out to be pedestrian elsewhere?
Remmers - journeyman, with injury issues.
Zeitler's hurt - we'll hope he'll return to form.
The rest - have had flashes here or there. Why anyone thought that amounted to them being some solid building blocks for the core is beyond me. "Played well at times" is practically damning with faint praise - you could just as easily say guys like Lorenzo Carter have been huge disappointments except for a few plays here or there. That's not necessarily coaching, that could just as easily be the talent that's there to work with.
I don't have any information; actually there's a lack of it. We know that the Patriots, Colts, Eagles, and other teams have experts dedicated to analyzing game management decisions. The Colts have two Ivy League guys up in the booth with a direct line to Reich. He asks them questions like, "If this pass is complete do we call timeout?" They provide real time data to provide the best possible decision making support to Reich...this was covered in an Athletic article and reiterated during SNF on NBC.
So what are the Giants doing to maximize their decision making process? What resources led then to taking a timeout today at 4:38?
Zietler-Pro bowler and all pro in Cleveland. Regressed since he’s been here.
Remmers-Starting caliber player in Minnesota. Enormous regression since he’s been here.
Hill-Strong season as a rookie. Regressed this season. Playing out of position.
Tomlinson-Strong season as a rookie. Regress this season. Playing out of position.
My point is that these guys have played well at times. And proven it. Why all of a sudden are they regressing?
Add a position? Motivation? Development? Practice habits? All of that falls directly on coaching.
Solder was always adequate at best in New England, and Belichick wasn't terribly broken up about his departure. Also, Kevin Zeitler has never made the Pro Bowl or been named to an All-Pro team, and I don't think either Hill or Tomlinson had particularly strong rookie years.
You and me both. I questioned people all season regarding their inflation of Hill's performance and it tended to make them very angry.
I think a lot of people bought heavily into that 3 sack game against the Bears as a true talent indicator rather than the fluke that it was.
Hill had 5.5 sacks without playing the full season last year. This season he only has 7 tackles. Total!
I think a lot of people bought heavily into that 3 sack game against the Bears as a true talent indicator rather than the fluke that it was.
Likely true. On the Cardinals fan version of BBI, I imagine there are posters assuming that Chase Edmunds will ascend to the elite tier of running backs.
With the right coaching staff, with the same players, today is a win. I just not sure who the right coaching staff is.
I know probably not a possibility but what would Belicheck and and his Oline coach do with this same team. I know we need some more players but I don’t think our talent level is as bad as our record.
- Not really running the ball all first half and then running it in the 2 minute offense. I get there are circumstances that dictate things, but I had no idea what we were trying to do on that drive.
- Slayton returning the ball out of the end zone at the end of the game. You tell him to take the TB. Even clean run backs rarely make it to the 25. Don't risk a penalty and potentially another play before the 2 minute warning. We do this a lot.
I agree. He doesn't look like the guy to me. I'd be ok with moving on from this staff.
Seriously, Candler Jones already had two (or three?) sacks already, so on a key 3rd down block him one-on-one? With a TE? Who’s our “catch-first and block if you have to” TE?!? So freakin stupid. One of the best guys really needs to question him about that.
Ellison had a TD catch and he actually is a tight end.
Agreed, I didn't even think about the not going for it on 4th and 2 last week when they went for it on 4th and 15, but that's a great point. That is just a massive disconnect in strategy. Punt on 4th and 15, try to get a stop and take your timeouts, at least you then get the ball back with reasonable field position only needing 3 points to tie it (which is a lot more doable with no timeouts than trying drive the length of the field for a TD with no timeouts).
Extremely low probability of converting a 4th and 15. Meanwhile, converting a 4th and 2 I believe is >50% chance. Unbelievable.
I think this is partially on the owner as well. Always wanting to make the safe hire. Afraid to step outside of the box. Why is there so much opposition to a young, progressive, creative coach?
I agree 100% Sure the Oline is not very good, but the Giants have a good amount of playmakers on offense to be successful. This is a game that should have been won at home against a bad team with a rookie QB! period. no excuses..
Zietler-Pro bowler and all pro in Cleveland. Regressed since he’s been here.
Remmers-Starting caliber player in Minnesota. Enormous regression since he’s been here.
Hill-Strong season as a rookie. Regressed this season. Playing out of position.
Tomlinson-Strong season as a rookie. Regress this season. Playing out of position.
My point is that these guys have played well at times. And proven it. Why all of a sudden are they regressing?
Add a position? Motivation? Development? Practice habits? All of that falls directly on coaching.
Exactly.. People are not realizing this? Why?? This should not be happening! Good coaches make players better period. They know how to utilize and put players in the right positions to succeed.. Why is it that the Patriots can lose a quality starter and the next guy plays like nothing has changed? BB has his players play on another level. Do you think Belichick would let Daniel Jones continue to have issues fumbling? Why hasn't this been addressed? It seems like its getting worse? Certain players like Davon Kennard & Okwara go to a different team and they have more success there? Quality coaches and their schemes make a big difference.
WE ALSO HAVE A ROOKIE QB. And that rookie was the one making the mistakes.
Murray made a few, but far less than Jones. What you are watching is the rookie learning curve in action. Jones will hopefully watch the tape of this, learn, and improve, because he played his worst game of the season.
And the OT position is a problem, they were dominated today.
The problem isn't Shurmur. On a good note, Jones made a number of tight window throws and huge 3rd down completions...just money throws to convert. That's not something you can teach, and he's shown a penchant for coming up with the tough play in 3rd and intermediate to long to extend drives repeatedly. I do think he's going to be very good. But he really had a problem with his internal clock today.
Expectations for this team is head-scratchingly high from this fan base. Rarely do you see a rookie come in and win right away. He will continue to mature as a QB, and I'm going to enjoy watching him, win or lose. At some point, you have to win, though, but my expectation for him winning was never THIS YEAR. Fans of this team need to manage their expectations better. The Giants are much better off than they were a year ago and even moreso two years ago.