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I have no confidence in this getting fixed anytime soon.

SFGFNCGiantsFan : 10/21/2019 7:04 am
Does anybody really see Johnny Mara firing Gettleman & Shurmur after this season? Unless we lose out, I'd say the odds are very high both of them are back in 2020 because Mara is all about continuity & staying in your comfort zone, even if the product is trash.

What this franchise desperately needs is someone with no ties to the organization who can come in & speak the blunt truth about what is wrong & how it can be fixed. But again, I don't see that happening.

What I guess I'm trying to say is that you can get rid of Gettleman & Shurmur & the same problem will be there because it starts at the top with Mara. What has he done to inspire confidence in this shit getting turned around?

I can't wait for our next GM to be Kevin Abrams! Yay!

So freaking sick of another season over before Halloween & starting to look at mocks for who we could take with the 3rd or 4th pick. Wellington used to say it was a successful season if we were playing meaningful games in December. Hell, I'd settle for playing meaningful games in early November nowadays.
This is still a cleanup job from Reese.  
robbieballs2003 : 10/21/2019 7:09 am : link
It took 2 years to clear the books. Our last 2 drafts have been very productive. I don't get the Gentleman hate. Has he been perfect? Of course not but we are moving in the right direction in terms of turning over the roster. The Niners are getting credit as a well run organization. They have sucked for years and now those draft picks are paying dividends. Shurmur and the staff need to go though.
As of right now...  
nzyme : 10/21/2019 7:15 am : link
Gettlemen is not the problem. It's Shurmur. The biggest issue you have now is that we've just drafted our future quarterback, who is not playing well, and there is a risk of this coach getting fired.

That means a new coach, a new offense, and a year of stunted growth for DJ. It's not a good situation. If the Giants organization is having doubts about Shurmur then get rid of him now.
RE: This is still a cleanup job from Reese.  
BlueLou'sBack : 10/21/2019 7:16 am : link
In comment 14638010 robbieballs2003 said:
Quote:
It took 2 years to clear the books. Our last 2 drafts have been very productive. I don't get the Gentleman hate. Has he been perfect? Of course not but we are moving in the right direction in terms of turning over the roster. The Niners are getting credit as a well run organization. They have sucked for years and now those draft picks are paying dividends. Shurmur and the staff need to go though.


Robbie I don't agree with the Shurmur hate yet, but I think your point about DG and the rebuild are spot on. I don't think I am competent to judge Shurmur when we are trotting out ILBs and an FS that couldn't start for most good college teams.
I don't either  
rocco8112 : 10/21/2019 7:19 am : link
Why would anyone. The Cards and rebuilding too and just walked into the Stadium and rolled the Giants.
I think its obvious that Shurmur gets one more year  
Hammer : 10/21/2019 7:21 am : link
and Gettlemen gets at least two no matter what happens this year.

I cannot see any scenario where Mara kicks both of them out the door after this season.

They both might find themselves in a room being told that they are on a very short leash if things go from bad to worse, but fired, this year, I don't think so.
However  
NikkiMac : 10/21/2019 7:26 am : link
Mara did specify that he wanted to see the team make improvements and at least be competitive,I think if this gets worse Mara is definitely going to fire Shurmur imo
RE: RE: This is still a cleanup job from Reese.  
robbieballs2003 : 10/21/2019 7:30 am : link
In comment 14638016 BlueLou'sBack said:
Quote:
In comment 14638010 robbieballs2003 said:


Quote:


It took 2 years to clear the books. Our last 2 drafts have been very productive. I don't get the Gentleman hate. Has he been perfect? Of course not but we are moving in the right direction in terms of turning over the roster. The Niners are getting credit as a well run organization. They have sucked for years and now those draft picks are paying dividends. Shurmur and the staff need to go though.



Robbie I don't agree with the Shurmur hate yet, but I think your point about DG and the rebuild are spot on. I don't think I am competent to judge Shurmur when we are trotting out ILBs and an FS that couldn't start for most good college teams.


I have coached for almost 10 years of my life. Shurmur is horrible.
Have  
mdthedream : 10/21/2019 7:41 am : link
no problem with Gettleman but if we can find the right head coach go get him. The Giants cleared a lot of cap space and next year is a big step. Jones is fine the Giants asked way to much of him in the pouring rain. The defense and offense did not adjust and that is on the coaching. That said we are not going anywhere at this time so figure out who is staying and give them playing time. The guys that are not look to trade them. Jenkins,Ogletree,Tate and whatever else.
RE: This is still a cleanup job from Reese.  
jcn56 : 10/21/2019 7:44 am : link
In comment 14638010 robbieballs2003 said:
Quote:
It took 2 years to clear the books. Our last 2 drafts have been very productive. I don't get the Gentleman hate. Has he been perfect? Of course not but we are moving in the right direction in terms of turning over the roster. The Niners are getting credit as a well run organization. They have sucked for years and now those draft picks are paying dividends. Shurmur and the staff need to go though.


The last two drafts have been very productive - by what measure?

So far, Gettleman's scorecard - a complete failure in FA, picked a bust of a head coach, and his drafted rookies are incapable of getting out of their own way. Outside of Barkley, the only bright spot was Hernandez last season, and he looks average at best this year.

Let's continue to blame Reese for this though, because evaluating Gettleman on the moves he's actually made is too difficult to bear.
If this is year 2 of a rebuild, then why was Eli on the team  
sb from NYT Forum : 10/21/2019 7:52 am : link
on opening day when he could have been released and his salary used to sign quality players that could help our rookie RB?

Also releasing Eli after the draft would have given him a chance to play for another team instead of running the scout team.
I want to keep Gettleman  
cjac : 10/21/2019 7:54 am : link
I really really hope Pat Shurmur is not the head coach of this team next season. This amount of suck is exhausting
A few comments on this  
Biteymax22 : 10/21/2019 8:02 am : link
1) I don't think this year was ever the "targeted" year to make their move and compete for a playoff spot, that will be next year. This year is about building a core of players and letting a rookie QB take his lumps and develop.

2) Shurmur gets one more year unless the season turns into a complete dumpster fire. See point 1 for reasoning, ownership knew this would be another building year.

3) While I think Gettleman was brought in with a short term focus to make a couple difficult decisions (replace Eli) and groom Kevin Abrams, I also think you should be careful what you wish for when you talk about replacing him. Gettleman has had 2 very good drafts and has started building the core that should have existed, but didn't when he took over. Despite some FA flops, Gettleman has done a fantastic job with the draft.

4) I believe Shurmur should give up the play calling. Nothing against his ability to do it, but balancing it and coaching the rest of the team is difficult and may not be something he's good at.

5) If anyone gets let go after this season, its more than likely Bettcher. Too many miscommunications in the secondary, too many instances where the team looks lost pre-snap. And by the way, how many TD's have we given up on Jet Sweeps this year? Yet we're still unable to adjust to the play.
2 very good drafts, a fantastic job with the drafts  
jcn56 : 10/21/2019 8:05 am : link
That's two drafts worth of players - with extra picks as a result of trades.

Where do you see all this excellence, and why hasn't it translated into any performance on gameday?

I don't think Shurmur's the guy to lead this bunch either, but he's not THAT bad. You guys seem to want to put all the blame at his feet as if there's no chance that this unproven talent just isn't any good.
At the conclusion  
Lines of Scrimmage : 10/21/2019 8:09 am : link
of last season I believe at the owner's meeting, John Mara was asked about the state of the Giants.

I can't recall the exact quote but it was along the lines of "it was going to take time" regarding the Giants getting good again.

To me this mindset is clearly evident in the team and how they are coached and played but much more of a coaching issue.

First this a terrible message to put out and secondly we sure have a coach who is on board and coaches with this mindset.
It would be surprising  
joeinpa : 10/21/2019 8:09 am : link
If you would feel positive after watching that game yesterday
RE: 2 very good drafts, a fantastic job with the drafts  
Biteymax22 : 10/21/2019 8:12 am : link
In comment 14638078 jcn56 said:
Quote:
That's two drafts worth of players - with extra picks as a result of trades.

Where do you see all this excellence, and why hasn't it translated into any performance on gameday?

I don't think Shurmur's the guy to lead this bunch either, but he's not THAT bad. You guys seem to want to put all the blame at his feet as if there's no chance that this unproven talent just isn't any good.


Gettleman only had 6 picks his first draft and netted 4 starting players from it, 1 of which being the rookie of the year and our unquestioned best player. Last years draft has already netted us 3 starters (1 is the highest graded rookie) 2 strong role players and guys like Ballentine that are contributing in their own way (returning kicks).

The reality is you aren't getting 7 starters every year, if you can get 3 or 4 that are starters/contributors you're doing well. The reason why the team is bad has nothing to do with the last 2 drafts and more to do with the previous 5 or 6 which netted us 3 players still on the team.

This team was really, really bad when these two took over, and while I'm admittedly not happy with Shurmur, Gettleman has started to build the core of players that you need on your team. We didn't have this for him to add too when he took over, next year and the year after, we can add to the core and hopefully take the next step.
RE: This is still a cleanup job from Reese.  
WillVAB : 10/21/2019 8:14 am : link
In comment 14638010 robbieballs2003 said:
Quote:
It took 2 years to clear the books. Our last 2 drafts have been very productive. I don't get the Gentleman hate. Has he been perfect? Of course not but we are moving in the right direction in terms of turning over the roster. The Niners are getting credit as a well run organization. They have sucked for years and now those draft picks are paying dividends. Shurmur and the staff need to go though.


This pretty much covers it.
Robbie  
ryanmkeane : 10/21/2019 8:17 am : link
yes, there is something to be said for cleaning up the roster. But as a coach, and a team in general, you have to show signs that the arrow is pointing up. The coaching on this team is downright bad. It is just...bad. There's no way getting around it.

We all need to stop making excuses for Shurmur. He's a bad football coach.
If the Giants finish 4-12  
arniefez : 10/21/2019 8:18 am : link
They're going to bring back Shurmur for a 3rd year?
RE: This is still a cleanup job from Reese.  
Blue21 : 10/21/2019 8:25 am : link
In comment 14638010 robbieballs2003 said:
Quote:
It took 2 years to clear the books. Our last 2 drafts have been very productive. I don't get the Gentleman hate. Has he been perfect? Of course not but we are moving in the right direction in terms of turning over the roster. The Niners are getting credit as a well run organization. They have sucked for years and now those draft picks are paying dividends. Shurmur and the staff need to go though.


I agree. The problem for fans is it's been 8 years of this. As another poster just said the Cardinals were the worst team in the league last year and just rolled us. Fans have lost their patience. Let's hope DJ and the rest of the rookies are part of the answer. And yes I have lost all confidence after yesterday in Shumur and Betcher.
RE: A few comments on this  
M.S. : 10/21/2019 8:31 am : link
In comment 14638076 Biteymax22 said:
Quote:
1) I don't think this year was ever the "targeted" year to make their move and compete for a playoff spot, that will be next year. This year is about building a core of players and letting a rookie QB take his lumps and develop.

2) Shurmur gets one more year unless the season turns into a complete dumpster fire. See point 1 for reasoning, ownership knew this would be another building year.

3) While I think Gettleman was brought in with a short term focus to make a couple difficult decisions (replace Eli) and groom Kevin Abrams, I also think you should be careful what you wish for when you talk about replacing him. Gettleman has had 2 very good drafts and has started building the core that should have existed, but didn't when he took over. Despite some FA flops, Gettleman has done a fantastic job with the draft.

4) I believe Shurmur should give up the play calling. Nothing against his ability to do it, but balancing it and coaching the rest of the team is difficult and may not be something he's good at.

5) If anyone gets let go after this season, its more than likely Bettcher. Too many miscommunications in the secondary, too many instances where the team looks lost pre-snap. And by the way, how many TD's have we given up on Jet Sweeps this year? Yet we're still unable to adjust to the play.


I agree with #1 except for the fact that the Giants will NOT be competing next year for a playoff spot.

#2 There is no next year for Pat Shurmur.

#3 I more or less agree with you regarding Gettleman and the Draft, but never forget that Gettleman will ultimately be judged on Daniel Jones and the jury is still very much out as to what we have in him.

#4 You make an excellent point. But I seriously question the ability of Pat Shurmur to rise above being an Offensive Coordinator. By what he says; by his body language; and by his record I'm convinced he's a total wash-out as a Head Coach.

#5 You make an excellent point. I will only add that Bettcher will be gone at the end of the season because the entire coaching staff will be let go.
If this were looked at as a multily year rebuild  
jvm52106 : 10/21/2019 8:33 am : link
then there are huge mistakes in the process that do not match that overall agenda. Specifically the following:

1) Why bring back Eli then. If this was considered a lost/growing year then why pay Eli.
2) With #1 in mind, then why have Tanney here too. Don't tell me about him being cut, he was here for the offseason and training camp and only injuries elsewhere caused him to be cut.
3) #1 and #2 combined now make the rebuilding take your lumps thought even more moot.
4) With those in mind and assuming #2 was to be a mentor to Jones while Eli takes the bumps of the lost season then why bench Eli 2 games into a season you didnt expect to win in? That now goes against the theory of let Eli play this year out and Jones learn from Tanney in the room and Eli on the field gameday.
5) If that theory is truly right about multi year rebuild then why not more picks on Oline? Instead we have overpriced LT, stopgap RT, Vet G who is an upgrade but may not be in 2-3 years.
5a) Staying with the theory why spend so many draft picks on the secondary of a team that doesn't have much of a pass rush? If rebuilding get your core Pass Rusher and work back. One or two picks in the secondary sure but we went CB- Beal, CB-Baker, CB- Love and CB- Ballantine. We drafted 1 OT late and he missed the season.
6) Again along the theory lines, why draft multiple Dlinemen for a 3-4 Team that are all somewhat similar and even if they are Really good at their jobs can still only have a minimal impact without LB's who are quality and without Safeties who cN cover and tackle..
7) Why have so many VET journey WR's who are mainly JAGs and who will not develop anymore than their 4-7 years experience in the league has already provided them.. I would rather late RD draft picks or UDFA
get some chance to grow..

I just see so many contradictions in the theory and thought process to the actuality. Seems like we are hearing one thing while watching something else.
What has anyone  
lax counsel : 10/21/2019 8:38 am : link
Witnessed that inspires full unwavering confidence in this “rebuild?” DJ looked great in Tampa, and has made some nice throws since. However, and something that should concern every fan, is the fact that he’s made the same mistakes week after week now. I am not suggesting he be perfect a few games in, but you’d like and expect to see some accretive growth. What you’ve seen is failure to recognize coverages and a lack of pocket presence as a continual issue.

There was supposed to be major investment in the defense and theyre continually gashed. I don’t see any star players developing on that side of the ball.

The offensive line was supposedly rebuilt. What we’ve seen is a bottom 10 product in this league that was pushed around by one of the worst defenses in the NFL yesterday. The receivers are pedestrian and don’t scare anyone.

So far all I can see that’s a clear “victory” out of this rebuild is a running backs that has already missed time with an injury. What I see right now is limited improvement with big questions marks all over the field, especially at qb.

I don’t know how anyone gives Gettlemen a clear mandate to rule after the first 7 games.
Gettleman has been OK  
aimrocky : 10/21/2019 8:38 am : link
to this point. Not great, not bad. I'm OK giving him another year.

Shurmer, on the other hand, has shown nothing to merit more time. I'm tired of wasted seasons, and we can't waste another one to see how he does with an experienced Daniel Jones.
RE: RE: 2 very good drafts, a fantastic job with the drafts  
jcn56 : 10/21/2019 8:40 am : link
In comment 14638089 Biteymax22 said:
Quote:
In comment 14638078 jcn56 said:


Quote:


That's two drafts worth of players - with extra picks as a result of trades.

Where do you see all this excellence, and why hasn't it translated into any performance on gameday?

I don't think Shurmur's the guy to lead this bunch either, but he's not THAT bad. You guys seem to want to put all the blame at his feet as if there's no chance that this unproven talent just isn't any good.



Gettleman only had 6 picks his first draft and netted 4 starting players from it, 1 of which being the rookie of the year and our unquestioned best player. Last years draft has already netted us 3 starters (1 is the highest graded rookie) 2 strong role players and guys like Ballentine that are contributing in their own way (returning kicks).

The reality is you aren't getting 7 starters every year, if you can get 3 or 4 that are starters/contributors you're doing well. The reason why the team is bad has nothing to do with the last 2 drafts and more to do with the previous 5 or 6 which netted us 3 players still on the team.

This team was really, really bad when these two took over, and while I'm admittedly not happy with Shurmur, Gettleman has started to build the core of players that you need on your team. We didn't have this for him to add too when he took over, next year and the year after, we can add to the core and hopefully take the next step.


I think you're mistaking the fact that guys are starting with your evaluation of them.

His draft picks are on the field - the question is, on what level are they performing?

Lorenzo Carter and BJ Hill - two guys I regularly see touted as being solid examples of players drafted by Gettleman. This season, neither of them looks like they'd be anything on another team aside from rotational depth. They're starting here, because the roster sucks.

Hernandez is another example - up and down all season, hasn't played very well at all. He was picked at the top of the 2nd round, expecting a player to be a solid starter there isn't exactly a stretch.

And finally Jones. He's an INC right now on anyone's card could turn out to be as good as he looked early on and better, or that could have been an aberration and he could turn out mediocre or worse. Too soon to tell, but you can't give anyone credit or blame for him yet.

Right now - Gettleman's accomplishments include a complete failure in FA, hiring coaches that don't seem worth a shit, and a bunch of players who might one day aspire to being solid starters. Aside from Barkley and Lawrence - who is also early into his career and could easily regress - not much to hang his hat on.

The results thus far should tell you something, and that something is not 'well, it's only year 2 of 5'.
In regards to Shurmur  
Ike#88 : 10/21/2019 8:40 am : link
my wife said during the game "for F sake he can't even figure out to put a hat on in the rain." Maybe the team was reading their press clippings after not getting blown out by the Patriots but this was another terrible performance in our home stadium. Shurmur better fix Jones bad habit of holding the ball too low as Banks pointed out on the radio broadcast or he should be let go after this year. If he gives up play calling does he do it in season? If he waits till next year then we are back to waiting to see if that guy can make a difference. The track record of Shurmur does not suggest success as a head coach.
...  
christian : 10/21/2019 8:52 am : link
The Reese excuse is dental floss thin at this point. Gettleman has made many of his own questionable decisions without a gun to his head.

The particularly lame one is explaining away Gettleman's bad decisions because he "had to," with the implication it was somehow still Reese's fault.

I'd puke if I knew Mara agreed with this type of performance assessment.

I'd also caution calling a verdict on the drafts. The 2018 class 23 games in looks like a 2 man draft, and 3 major incompletes.

The 2019 class looks very promising among the first rounders, and again the balance are incompletes (throw in Beal to that mix as well).

But do keep in mind these are the guys who, extenuating circumstances considered, are getting their asses kicked on the field.

He's got as many Ls in UFA and acquisitions as Ws.

Golden and Thomas are his best acquisitions. Zeitler and Tate get incompletes for circumstances, although Tate is a dipshit.

Stewart, Omameh, Martin, Solder, Latimer, Bethea, and Ogletree were all low return investments.
RE: RE: RE: 2 very good drafts, a fantastic job with the drafts  
Biteymax22 : 10/21/2019 9:01 am : link
In comment 14638135 jcn56 said:
Quote:
In comment 14638089 Biteymax22 said:


Quote:


In comment 14638078 jcn56 said:


Quote:


That's two drafts worth of players - with extra picks as a result of trades.

Where do you see all this excellence, and why hasn't it translated into any performance on gameday?

I don't think Shurmur's the guy to lead this bunch either, but he's not THAT bad. You guys seem to want to put all the blame at his feet as if there's no chance that this unproven talent just isn't any good.



Gettleman only had 6 picks his first draft and netted 4 starting players from it, 1 of which being the rookie of the year and our unquestioned best player. Last years draft has already netted us 3 starters (1 is the highest graded rookie) 2 strong role players and guys like Ballentine that are contributing in their own way (returning kicks).

The reality is you aren't getting 7 starters every year, if you can get 3 or 4 that are starters/contributors you're doing well. The reason why the team is bad has nothing to do with the last 2 drafts and more to do with the previous 5 or 6 which netted us 3 players still on the team.

This team was really, really bad when these two took over, and while I'm admittedly not happy with Shurmur, Gettleman has started to build the core of players that you need on your team. We didn't have this for him to add too when he took over, next year and the year after, we can add to the core and hopefully take the next step.



I think you're mistaking the fact that guys are starting with your evaluation of them.

His draft picks are on the field - the question is, on what level are they performing?

Lorenzo Carter and BJ Hill - two guys I regularly see touted as being solid examples of players drafted by Gettleman. This season, neither of them looks like they'd be anything on another team aside from rotational depth. They're starting here, because the roster sucks.

Hernandez is another example - up and down all season, hasn't played very well at all. He was picked at the top of the 2nd round, expecting a player to be a solid starter there isn't exactly a stretch.

And finally Jones. He's an INC right now on anyone's card could turn out to be as good as he looked early on and better, or that could have been an aberration and he could turn out mediocre or worse. Too soon to tell, but you can't give anyone credit or blame for him yet.

Right now - Gettleman's accomplishments include a complete failure in FA, hiring coaches that don't seem worth a shit, and a bunch of players who might one day aspire to being solid starters. Aside from Barkley and Lawrence - who is also early into his career and could easily regress - not much to hang his hat on.

The results thus far should tell you something, and that something is not 'well, it's only year 2 of 5'.


I get where you're coming from, but think you're a little harsh on a couple of the guys. Hill lead this team in sacks last year and Carter has been around the QB a lot this year, especially the last couple games. These guys aren't starts, but if you can put together a defense with 8 or 9 guys around their caliber, suddenly you're pretty good.

Hernandez has his bad games, but is still an above average guard. He also plays next to 2 below average players (Solder is at this point) which will make him look worse than he is at times.

When it comes to the coaching and FA decisions, I agree. Shurmur seems like the type that is better as an OC and for the free agents, Golden is the only one we've had where bringing a guy in with "familiarity" to Gettleman or a coordinator has seemed to work.

Again, as I mentioned in my initial post, I don't think there was ever a long term plan for Gettleman (more then 4/5 years) and honestly think the same about Shurmur, but I remember the Jerry Reese drafts very well and know what things could look like without Gettleman.
RE: ...  
Jeffrey : 10/21/2019 9:02 am : link
In comment 14638166 christian said:
Quote:
The Reese excuse is dental floss thin at this point. Gettleman has made many of his own questionable decisions without a gun to his head.

The particularly lame one is explaining away Gettleman's bad decisions because he "had to," with the implication it was somehow still Reese's fault.

I'd puke if I knew Mara agreed with this type of performance assessment.

I'd also caution calling a verdict on the drafts. The 2018 class 23 games in looks like a 2 man draft, and 3 major incompletes.

The 2019 class looks very promising among the first rounders, and again the balance are incompletes (throw in Beal to that mix as well).

But do keep in mind these are the guys who, extenuating circumstances considered, are getting their asses kicked on the field.

He's got as many Ls in UFA and acquisitions as Ws.

Golden and Thomas are his best acquisitions. Zeitler and Tate get incompletes for circumstances, although Tate is a dipshit.

Stewart, Omameh, Martin, Solder, Latimer, Bethea, and Ogletree were all low return investments.



Agree with this. Since when does playing as a starter on one of the worst teams in the league demonstrate that a draft pick is good? DG’s drafts appear to be good at the top but how many times did Reese pick in the Top 6 and why is Reese, a marginal GM, the measuring stick?
RE: This is still a cleanup job from Reese.  
Les in TO : 10/21/2019 9:08 am : link
In comment 14638010 robbieballs2003 said:
Quote:
It took 2 years to clear the books. Our last 2 drafts have been very productive. I don't get the Gentleman hate. Has he been perfect? Of course not but we are moving in the right direction in terms of turning over the roster. The Niners are getting credit as a well run organization. They have sucked for years and now those draft picks are paying dividends. Shurmur and the staff need to go though.
this was a Gettleman offensive line that looked like Swiss cheese. A Gettleman front 7 that got manhandled. And a Gettleman hires coach who looks increasingly unqualified. Yes he needed to fix some parts of the team but he also choose the ingredients that are so far looking ugly (though I’m in the camp that Jones is going to be the franchise QB). It’s not all his fault but he shares a good chunk of the blame.
RE: RE: This is still a cleanup job from Reese.  
gmenatlarge : 10/21/2019 9:36 am : link
In comment 14638196 Les in TO said:
Quote:
In comment 14638010 robbieballs2003 said:


Quote:


It took 2 years to clear the books. Our last 2 drafts have been very productive. I don't get the Gentleman hate. Has he been perfect? Of course not but we are moving in the right direction in terms of turning over the roster. The Niners are getting credit as a well run organization. They have sucked for years and now those draft picks are paying dividends. Shurmur and the staff need to go though.

this was a Gettleman offensive line that looked like Swiss cheese. A Gettleman front 7 that got manhandled. And a Gettleman hires coach who looks increasingly unqualified. Yes he needed to fix some parts of the team but he also choose the ingredients that are so far looking ugly (though I’m in the camp that Jones is going to be the franchise QB). It’s not all his fault but he shares a good chunk of the blame.


Agreed, DG gets no pass from me, these are his guys and this OL is no better than last year, no more excuses. While DJ might be the franchise guy, his lack of pocket awareness is startling. I am not sure if that is something you can fix or an innate ability, time will tell.
RE: This is still a cleanup job from Reese.  
Justlurking : 10/21/2019 9:39 am : link
In comment 14638010 robbieballs2003 said:
Quote:
It took 2 years to clear the books. Our last 2 drafts have been very productive. I don't get the Gentleman hate. Has he been perfect? Of course not but we are moving in the right direction in terms of turning over the roster. The Niners are getting credit as a well run organization. They have sucked for years and now those draft picks are paying dividends. Shurmur and the staff need to go though.


Who hired Shurmur? How is that not a knock on Gettleman? Also, this entire OL is Mr. Hog Mollie's creation and it blows. Blaming Reese is such a cop out. Gettleman has thrown gasoline on this dumpster fire.
RE: As of right now...  
Big_N : 10/21/2019 9:39 am : link
In comment 14638014 nzyme said:
Quote:
Gettlemen is not the problem. It's Shurmur. The biggest issue you have now is that we've just drafted our future quarterback, who is not playing well, and there is a risk of this coach getting fired.

That means a new coach, a new offense, and a year of stunted growth for DJ. It's not a good situation. If the Giants organization is having doubts about Shurmur then get rid of him now.


You guys and this DJ this and that but Shurmur has to go. Shurmur goes and DJ goes...no new coach is going to want this guy. DJ is Gettlemen and shurmur's guy.
RE: RE: This is still a cleanup job from Reese.  
Greg from LI : 10/21/2019 9:41 am : link
In comment 14638263 Justlurking said:
Quote:
Who hired Shurmur? How is that not a knock on Gettleman?


No no no, you don't understand - that was all Mara and Tisch! Dave Gettleman only makes great moves - all the bad ones were the owners' fault!
RE: RE: RE: This is still a cleanup job from Reese.  
Justlurking : 10/21/2019 9:46 am : link
In comment 14638269 Greg from LI said:
Quote:
In comment 14638263 Justlurking said:


Quote:


Who hired Shurmur? How is that not a knock on Gettleman?



No no no, you don't understand - that was all Mara and Tisch! Dave Gettleman only makes great moves - all the bad ones were the owners' fault!


Can we hear one more time about BJ HILL being an example of the greatness of Mr. Hog Mollie? I seriously forget hes on the team every Sunday and am only reminded he is on the team when team Hog Mollie comes out to make excuses on Monday morning about the latest debacle.

Im sick of it. This team sucks. This franchise sucks. And Mr. Hog Mollie sucks.
There is like 5-6 players left from JR's time  
chuckydee9 : 10/21/2019 9:49 am : link
how do you blame JR for this mess?

Guess who brought this OL with great investment in it?
Guess who overpaid for a scrub LB?
Guess who extended an of injured WR with serious concussion problems?
Guess who gutted this defense?
Guess who drafted Baker?
Guess who completely re-do the defensive secondary? and let me know if any pieces are there for the future?
Guess who decided to pay an Old, ineffective QB 17M this year to start 2 games?
Dude  
RobThailand : 10/21/2019 9:55 am : link
I fell your pain and frustration. Watching games that start at 1am here and the product sucks is not fun...Im so tired of telling all my british soccer(football) fans here my season is done week 6. They got me watching Chelsea.. Fuckkk...
DG’s CBs  
Justlurking : 10/21/2019 9:55 am : link
LOL Don’t worry, Sam Beal may make an appearance soon! 4 picks on DeAndre Baker and Sam Beal. It’s unbelievable. And people here want to throw him a parade because he drafted BJ Hill.
RE: RE: RE: RE: 2 very good drafts, a fantastic job with the drafts  
gmenatlarge : 10/21/2019 11:05 am : link
In comment 14638181 Biteymax22 said:
Quote:
In comment 14638135 jcn56 said:


Quote:


In comment 14638089 Biteymax22 said:


Quote:


In comment 14638078 jcn56 said:


Quote:


That's two drafts worth of players - with extra picks as a result of trades.

Where do you see all this excellence, and why hasn't it translated into any performance on gameday?

I don't think Shurmur's the guy to lead this bunch either, but he's not THAT bad. You guys seem to want to put all the blame at his feet as if there's no chance that this unproven talent just isn't any good.



Gettleman only had 6 picks his first draft and netted 4 starting players from it, 1 of which being the rookie of the year and our unquestioned best player. Last years draft has already netted us 3 starters (1 is the highest graded rookie) 2 strong role players and guys like Ballentine that are contributing in their own way (returning kicks).

The reality is you aren't getting 7 starters every year, if you can get 3 or 4 that are starters/contributors you're doing well. The reason why the team is bad has nothing to do with the last 2 drafts and more to do with the previous 5 or 6 which netted us 3 players still on the team.

This team was really, really bad when these two took over, and while I'm admittedly not happy with Shurmur, Gettleman has started to build the core of players that you need on your team. We didn't have this for him to add too when he took over, next year and the year after, we can add to the core and hopefully take the next step.



I think you're mistaking the fact that guys are starting with your evaluation of them.

His draft picks are on the field - the question is, on what level are they performing?

Lorenzo Carter and BJ Hill - two guys I regularly see touted as being solid examples of players drafted by Gettleman. This season, neither of them looks like they'd be anything on another team aside from rotational depth. They're starting here, because the roster sucks.

Hernandez is another example - up and down all season, hasn't played very well at all. He was picked at the top of the 2nd round, expecting a player to be a solid starter there isn't exactly a stretch.

And finally Jones. He's an INC right now on anyone's card could turn out to be as good as he looked early on and better, or that could have been an aberration and he could turn out mediocre or worse. Too soon to tell, but you can't give anyone credit or blame for him yet.

Right now - Gettleman's accomplishments include a complete failure in FA, hiring coaches that don't seem worth a shit, and a bunch of players who might one day aspire to being solid starters. Aside from Barkley and Lawrence - who is also early into his career and could easily regress - not much to hang his hat on.

The results thus far should tell you something, and that something is not 'well, it's only year 2 of 5'.



I get where you're coming from, but think you're a little harsh on a couple of the guys. Hill lead this team in sacks last year and Carter has been around the QB a lot this year, especially the last couple games. These guys aren't starts, but if you can put together a defense with 8 or 9 guys around their caliber, suddenly you're pretty good.

Hernandez has his bad games, but is still an above average guard. He also plays next to 2 below average players (Solder is at this point) which will make him look worse than he is at times.

When it comes to the coaching and FA decisions, I agree. Shurmur seems like the type that is better as an OC and for the free agents, Golden is the only one we've had where bringing a guy in with "familiarity" to Gettleman or a coordinator has seemed to work.

Again, as I mentioned in my initial post, I don't think there was ever a long term plan for Gettleman (more then 4/5 years) and honestly think the same about Shurmur, but I remember the Jerry Reese drafts very well and know what things could look like without Gettleman.


RE: BJ Hill leading the team in sacks is like being the tallest midget, so freakin' what!
RE: As of right now...  
islander1 : 10/21/2019 11:07 am : link
In comment 14638014 nzyme said:
Quote:
Gettlemen is not the problem. It's Shurmur. The biggest issue you have now is that we've just drafted our future quarterback, who is not playing well, and there is a risk of this coach getting fired.

That means a new coach, a new offense, and a year of stunted growth for DJ. It's not a good situation. If the Giants organization is having doubts about Shurmur then get rid of him now.


+1

Gettleman worries me with his FA record going into next summer. He's going to have money to spend. I worry.

However as long as he is drafting 4-5 players a year that upgrade our roster, i'm not sure how much more he can do. This team was in the toilet when he got here. Bad players and bad contracts.

The coaching staff is the problem here.
BJ Hill has played in 23 NFL games  
Greg from LI : 10/21/2019 11:09 am : link
He had 3 sacks against the Bears and 2.5 in the other 22 games. Which do you think is more indicative of his talent level?
It would be great if he drafted 4-5 players yearly that upgraded  
jcn56 : 10/21/2019 11:11 am : link
the roster. When does he plan to start?
To the OP.  
Big Blue '56 : 10/21/2019 11:13 am : link
Weren’t you the one who came on here after DJ’s player of the week performance saying how wrong you were about DJ? We were elated as well, but cautioned that it was only one game and with all the young players it was going to be a process, even an angst-ridden one..

Most here say we won’t do anything until 2020 or 2021, that we need to continue to draft well. Yet, when we don’t do well in 2019, people get bent out of shape.

Patience.
RE: BJ Hill has played in 23 NFL games  
Justlurking : 10/21/2019 11:14 am : link
In comment 14638578 Greg from LI said:
Quote:
He had 3 sacks against the Bears and 2.5 in the other 22 games. Which do you think is more indicative of his talent level?


I honestly havent seen him make a tackle this season. Lawrence flashes, Hill does not.
RE: This is still a cleanup job from Reese.  
Alan in Toledo : 10/21/2019 1:33 pm : link
In comment 14638010 robbieballs2003 said:
Quote:
It took 2 years to clear the books. Our last 2 drafts have been very productive. I don't get the Gentleman hate. Has he been perfect? Of course not but we are moving in the right direction in terms of turning over the roster. The Niners are getting credit as a well run organization. They have sucked for years and now those draft picks are paying dividends. Shurmur and the staff need to go though.


+1
RE: RE: RE: 2 very good drafts, a fantastic job with the drafts  
Alan in Toledo : 10/21/2019 1:36 pm : link
In comment 14638135 jcn56 said:
Quote:
In comment 14638089 Biteymax22 said:


Quote:


In comment 14638078 jcn56 said:


Quote:


That's two drafts worth of players - with extra picks as a result of trades.

Where do you see all this excellence, and why hasn't it translated into any performance on gameday?

I don't think Shurmur's the guy to lead this bunch either, but he's not THAT bad. You guys seem to want to put all the blame at his feet as if there's no chance that this unproven talent just isn't any good.



Gettleman only had 6 picks his first draft and netted 4 starting players from it, 1 of which being the rookie of the year and our unquestioned best player. Last years draft has already netted us 3 starters (1 is the highest graded rookie) 2 strong role players and guys like Ballentine that are contributing in their own way (returning kicks).

The reality is you aren't getting 7 starters every year, if you can get 3 or 4 that are starters/contributors you're doing well. The reason why the team is bad has nothing to do with the last 2 drafts and more to do with the previous 5 or 6 which netted us 3 players still on the team.

This team was really, really bad when these two took over, and while I'm admittedly not happy with Shurmur, Gettleman has started to build the core of players that you need on your team. We didn't have this for him to add too when he took over, next year and the year after, we can add to the core and hopefully take the next step.



I think you're mistaking the fact that guys are starting with your evaluation of them.

His draft picks are on the field - the question is, on what level are they performing?

Lorenzo Carter and BJ Hill - two guys I regularly see touted as being solid examples of players drafted by Gettleman. This season, neither of them looks like they'd be anything on another team aside from rotational depth. They're starting here, because the roster sucks.

Hernandez is another example - up and down all season, hasn't played very well at all. He was picked at the top of the 2nd round, expecting a player to be a solid starter there isn't exactly a stretch.

And finally Jones. He's an INC right now on anyone's card could turn out to be as good as he looked early on and better, or that could have been an aberration and he could turn out mediocre or worse. Too soon to tell, but you can't give anyone credit or blame for him yet.

Right now - Gettleman's accomplishments include a complete failure in FA, hiring coaches that don't seem worth a shit, and a bunch of players who might one day aspire to being solid starters. Aside from Barkley and Lawrence - who is also early into his career and could easily regress - not much to hang his hat on.

The results thus far should tell you something, and that something is not 'well, it's only year 2 of 5'.


overly pessimistic
it's possbile DG knowingly under-hired our HC  
Alan in Toledo : 10/21/2019 1:41 pm : link
knowing that even a genius couldn't win with our talent.

The question now is: will 2020 be a leap forward?
JCN one answer to your query:  
BlueLou'sBack : 10/21/2019 2:06 pm : link
"The last two drafts have been very productive - by what measure?"

By the measure of the previous regimes's 3rd rounder - Jerrel Jernigan, Ramses Barden, Travis Beckum, the Syracuse DT, the Berkeley QB, IDK them all but pretty much every single 3rd round selection Reese and Ross made.

By that standard Lorenzo Carter and BJ Hill look very good.
One of BBI's faves -  
BlueLou'sBack : 10/21/2019 2:08 pm : link
Jayron Hosely, another 3rd round zero.
I'm with jcn  
santacruzom : 10/21/2019 2:18 pm : link
Why is it taken for granted that Gettleman's past 2 drafts have been "very productive?"

That's an assessment you reserve for something like the Colts' 2018 draft. Why apply it to either the 18 or 19 Giants' draft at this point, let alone both of them?
RE: ...  
santacruzom : 10/21/2019 2:24 pm : link
In comment 14638166 christian said:
Quote:


I'd puke if I knew Mara agreed with this type of performance assessment.


Then I suggest listening to this season's final Mara press conference while in close proximity to a toilet.
RE: JCN one answer to your query:  
jcn56 : 10/21/2019 2:28 pm : link
In comment 14639025 BlueLou'sBack said:
Quote:
"The last two drafts have been very productive - by what measure?"

By the measure of the previous regimes's 3rd rounder - Jerrel Jernigan, Ramses Barden, Travis Beckum, the Syracuse DT, the Berkeley QB, IDK them all but pretty much every single 3rd round selection Reese and Ross made.

By that standard Lorenzo Carter and BJ Hill look very good.


It's interesting that you stuck to the third round, but still - all of those guys contributed, they just weren't very good. They had a few flashes and not much else.

Which is exactly where Gettleman's draft picks are right now. At best you can say they have potential - nobody is performing at a high level right now, save for Barkley and maybe Lawrence.
RE: RE: RE: RE: 2 very good drafts, a fantastic job with the drafts  
jcn56 : 10/21/2019 2:30 pm : link
In comment 14638976 Alan in Toledo said:
Quote:


overly pessimistic


No, just realistic. If you guys want to pretend the drafts have been great and there are some solid, possibly very good players here - have at it.

If you've seen it in terms of play on the field, point it out. Until then, as Mr. Parcells was fond of saying, 'you are what your record says you are'. And right now, the record says the Giants are garbage.
RE: It would be great if he drafted 4-5 players yearly that upgraded  
FatMan in Charlotte : 10/21/2019 2:43 pm : link
In comment 14638585 jcn56 said:
Quote:
the roster. When does he plan to start?

Has he not done that??
They needed that type of  
Scooter185 : 10/21/2019 3:09 pm : link
House cleaning when TC was let go. Unfortunately they have their "type" and have been unwilling to go outside of the box in their hiring process
jcn56  
Marty866b : 10/21/2019 3:43 pm : link
I'm 100% with you about DG. He has been as crap as the GM before him,maybe worse. I agree, just because there are starters from the last two drafts does not make them good football players. Does anyone thin any of these guys would start on the patriot or Steeler defenses? Except for Barkley, there are no impact players and even Barkley one could argue was the wrong selection considering the state of the franchise. How anyone can think that Gettleman has done a good job is ridiculous to me. The team is 7-16 since he's taken over and does anyone here think that this team is improving or have a bright future? Like I have stated before, unfortunately we cannot fie the owner though I'd love to, but we need a whole new regime and culture and that starts from the top. I'd fire everyone and start over. Everyone here wants to fire the coach, and rightfully so, but who hired him? The same guy who has given him most of this horrible roster. Mr. Hog Mollie. Still one of the worst offensive lines in the entire league. The Colts offensive line two years ago was as bad or worse then ours. Look at them today and look at us. I would wish Gettleman the best of health and send him on his way along with everyone he has brought in.
RE: RE: It would be great if he drafted 4-5 players yearly that upgraded  
christian : 10/21/2019 7:12 pm : link
In comment 14639090 FatMan in Charlotte said:
Quote:
In comment 14638585 jcn56 said:


Quote:


the roster. When does he plan to start?


Has he not done that??


I went into the season really bullish on last year's draft, and really cognizant of value (age, cost, etc.).

From the 2018 draft I'm down to believing Barkley and Hernandez are clear upgrades talent wise.

Beal hasn't seen the field, Hill, McIntosh, and Carter have had very pedestrian showings this year. Certainly not the type of progress I thought was coming.

Barkley > Darkwa
Hernandez > Fluker
Carter < Kennard
Hill < JPP
McIntosh = Robert Thomas

Any big argument there?
Honestly, after a strong season last year  
jcn56 : 10/21/2019 7:18 pm : link
I'm not sure Hernandez is any better than Fluker right now, although he is cheaper and Fluker's had injury issues.

Of course, he also cost the 2nd pick in the 2nd round...
If Shurmur isn't fired the quality of the drafts won't matter  
Go Terps : 10/21/2019 7:23 pm : link
This year we'll finish 5-11 and keep Gettleman/Shurmur. Next year Shurmur's timeouts, PI challenges, and 4th down mismanagement will lead us to another 5-11 season whereupon he (and Gettleman) will be fired and we'll be doing this all again.

What are we seeing that would lead us to believe that Gettleman/Shurmur will lead the Giants to a winning record in 2020? We'd have to take it on faith that something fundamental will change.

The truth is this team isn't trying all that hard to win. If it were, it would have at least locked down game management by hiring some data analysts to help out the coaching staff in real time. Instead we end up punting down two scores in New England, and then running on 3rd and 18 to set up a 4th and 15 where we go for it against the Cardinals.

The Giants are trying to win; they're just hoping to win. We're a chalk W on other people's schedules. Pathetic.
*The Giants AREN'T trying to win  
Go Terps : 10/21/2019 7:24 pm : link
.
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