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I will say it. Should have took Josh Allen

DeepBlueJint : 10/21/2019 9:42 am
With the 2019 Draft, I was concerned that the Giants were not going anywhere because of (a) front office stinks, (b) coach is a loser, and (c) not enough talent across the board no matter what happens in the draft.

So Allen falls to #6. We pass and take Jones.

I feel the pain with Daniel Jones. He has talent. I am sick of hearing how well he throws into tight windows. For all of that he throws interceptions and fumbles way too often. And, no, that is not acceptable for a rookie. I am concerned he is learning to many bad habits. The stats so far bear me out on that; plus he is holding the ball too long and forcing passes. I remain convinced that Eli should be the starting QB; but unfortunately, that train apparently has left.

The talent players on offense, e.g. Barkley, Engram and Shepard are hurt. Shepard should have never been brought back. I knew before the Cardinals game that Engram with his sprained knee in the rain would be ineffectual. One catch? Barkley should have been held out one more week. Throw Gallman to the lions (including next game). Now, Barkley is hurt again. He did not look Barleyesque yesterday for whatever reason. And I agree with Tate's commentary after the game. At least Tate brought it to the field.

So, Josh Allen? 5 Sacks, 21 Combined Tackles, 7 for losses, 9 QB Hits.

I still wish the Giants took Allen and looked to 2020 or 2021 for a QB. Because the record, coaching staff and front office all appears deficient. Add lack of sufficient talent and it seems to me the Giants wasted a #6. And Shurmur has the excuse of lack of talent. That is B.S.! It is his "watch" and he does not take ownership or know what leadership is and is expected from him. He stinks.

Oh, and when the Giants ultimately fire Shurmur, Jones will have to start all over again with a new coach and a new system; assuming the new coach doesn't want to "Rosen" him.

FWIW
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takes like this are dumb  
Ned In Atlanta : 10/21/2019 9:59 am : link
I'm optimistic about jones and Dex but its hard not to think what if seeing how dominant Josh allen looks. He's looking like a blue chip pass rusher. They just don't come along and fall in your lap every year
RE: The Giants should have drafted Sam Darnold  
lax counsel : 10/21/2019 9:59 am : link
In comment 14638290 arniefez said:
Quote:
and Josh Allen the past two years and they'd be in much better shape going forward. Many people here keep saying Gettleman has had two great drafts. I have no idea what they're talking about. He drafted a RB with the #2 pick and then had to pass on a dominant DE/LB that the Giants desperately need to take a QB.


It's hard to argue that point. One thing I will say, is Darnold has not showed much better than Jones so far. Time will tell.
It's no secret that Jones wasn't my first choice  
Greg from LI : 10/21/2019 9:59 am : link
He wasn't my fifth choice, either. That said, I'm not sure what people expect from a rookie playing behind an atrocious OL, throwing to a laughably weak group of receivers.

He's a rookie and playing like one. He's made some excellent throws, and some terrible ones. Eli looked like garbage for most of his rookie season too, in case some of you have forgotten. I agree that it's silly when people try to claim Jones is actually playing great. He isn't. It's just as silly to use some typical rookie struggles to declare that, after five whole starts, that he will never be a successful NFL quarterback.
Looking like a dominant player..  
FatMan in Charlotte : 10/21/2019 10:02 am : link
and becoming one are two different things. We heard about how passing on Leonard Floyd was a bad move and he had a decent rookie season. This year, he's invisible.

And for the love of god, if people are judging a rookie QB after 5 games - that's just madness, especially when takes in two of those games supposedly cemented the position for the foreseeable future
In 2018, We should have  
AndyMilligan : 10/21/2019 10:02 am : link
traded the #2 pick and gotten two firsts and drafted:

Lamar Jackson and Nick Chubb.

Lamar is already showing to be the biggest difference maker in that draft and Chubb will wind up having a better career than Barkley, as he is a superior between the tackles runner.

Then we could have taken Josh Allen in 2019.

It's hindsight, yes, but that seems like the better plan, doesn't it?
The time to evaluate Jones is at the end of the year  
Mike from Ohio : 10/21/2019 10:05 am : link
The pre-draft conclusions were premature. The conclusions after the Tampa Bay game were premature. The conclusions after the Cardinals game are premature.

Rookie QBs flash and struggle. So far we have seen DJ do both. No conclusion about him being either a bust or a savior are warranted after 5 games.
RE: So we are judging Jones after 5 games  
Big_N : 10/21/2019 10:05 am : link
In comment 14638310 joeinpa said:
Quote:
Good thing we didnít do that with Eli and his 48% rookie completion percentage.

If you think Eli should still be the quarterback of this team after watching the past two seasons and the first two games of this season, there not much anything anyone could say to convince you, you re wrong.

But if you re an Eli fan first and a Giants fan second, your ot makes sense. Not saying you are, but donít know how else you could conclude he should still be the quarterback

In his first start Jones overcame and 18 pt deficit, something Eli never accomplishing 15 seasons

Think you need to give the kid a break here.


I hate the Eli Jones comparisons. Eli played a great game in his 5th start and was making progress. Admittedly he had a better cast but still. DJ is still fumbling the ball like crazy and looks to be worse. Eli was a promising pick ... DJ was a wtf pick at 6. What has changed?
RE: What do some people think rookie QBs look like 98% of the time  
Giant Fan Dan : 10/21/2019 10:06 am : link
In comment 14638294 shockeyisthebest8056 said:
Quote:
and did their televisions work in 2004?


A big difference is that in 2004 Eli was basically learning rocket surgery in Coughlin's system, Jones is playing in this pop-warner Shurmur WCO system that you could plug any idiot into and have up to speed in a week, and now that there's film on him he's looking worse every week
RE: In 2018, We should have  
Big Rick in FL : 10/21/2019 10:06 am : link
In comment 14638359 AndyMilligan said:
[quote] traded the #2 pick and gotten two firsts and drafted:

Lamar Jackson and Nick Chubb.

Lamar is already showing to be the biggest difference maker in that draft and Chubb will wind up having a better career than Barkley, as he is a superior between the tackles runner.

Then we could have taken Josh Allen in 2019.

It's hindsight, yes, but that seems like the better plan, doesn't it? [/quote

Who were they getting two firsts from?

Lamar Jackson? Give me a fucking break. People are getting on a rookie behind a shit OL about turnovers. Lamar has 4 passing TDs and 5 INTs in his last 5 games. He has 3 rushing TDs and 4 fumbles. His stats are skewed from playing the Dolphins at the beginning of the year.
RE: RE: In 2018, We should have  
AndyMilligan : 10/21/2019 10:08 am : link
In comment 14638376 Big Rick in FL said:
Quote:
In comment 14638359 AndyMilligan said:
[quote] traded the #2 pick and gotten two firsts and drafted:

Lamar Jackson and Nick Chubb.

Lamar is already showing to be the biggest difference maker in that draft and Chubb will wind up having a better career than Barkley, as he is a superior between the tackles runner.

Then we could have taken Josh Allen in 2019.

It's hindsight, yes, but that seems like the better plan, doesn't it? [/quote

Who were they getting two firsts from?

Lamar Jackson? Give me a fucking break. People are getting on a rookie behind a shit OL about turnovers. Lamar has 4 passing TDs and 5 INTs in his last 5 games. He has 3 rushing TDs and 4 fumbles. His stats are skewed from playing the Dolphins at the beginning of the year.
The Bill.. two mid firsts would have done it..
Taken  
jeff57 : 10/21/2019 10:09 am : link
.
Let's see..  
FatMan in Charlotte : 10/21/2019 10:09 am : link
exactly how favorable Lamar Jackson will be perceived when he actually needs to complete an important aspect of the position - throwing the ball.

And hell, for as much as people talk about emulating the ravens, interestingly enough, they did something that's a huge no-no - they went and threw $$$ at a RB coming off his first contract......
Wanted to take Allen  
jeff57 : 10/21/2019 10:10 am : link
Was against taking Jones. But I've been impressed by what I've seen from him.
Horrible weather in the last two games  
ZoneXDOA : 10/21/2019 10:10 am : link
And we could have won both of them. STFU
RE: What do some people think rookie QBs look like 98% of the time  
islander1 : 10/21/2019 10:13 am : link
In comment 14638294 shockeyisthebest8056 said:
Quote:
and did their televisions work in 2004?


It's pretty remarkable, isn't it. It's like the TV was invented in 2006.
knee jerk reactions  
LakeGeorgeGiant : 10/21/2019 10:13 am : link
It's astounding how one game can change the narrative from "we have our QB and might compete for the division" to "we should have drafted fumbles Darnold and light-ass Allen and the sky is falling".

I'm as concerned as anybody but about this team, but Jones isn't at the top of my list right now. I think his floor is adequate starter.

They need to fix the line and get him some weapons, and a coach and a defense.

We would not be a better team with Darnold and Allen instead of Barkley/Jones. They aren't the problem.
RE: RE: RE: In 2018, We should have  
Big Rick in FL : 10/21/2019 10:14 am : link
In comment 14638379 AndyMilligan said:
Quote:
In comment 14638376 Big Rick in FL said:


Quote:


In comment 14638359 AndyMilligan said:
[quote] traded the #2 pick and gotten two firsts and drafted:

Lamar Jackson and Nick Chubb.

Lamar is already showing to be the biggest difference maker in that draft and Chubb will wind up having a better career than Barkley, as he is a superior between the tackles runner.

Then we could have taken Josh Allen in 2019.

It's hindsight, yes, but that seems like the better plan, doesn't it? [/quote

Who were they getting two firsts from?

Lamar Jackson? Give me a fucking break. People are getting on a rookie behind a shit OL about turnovers. Lamar has 4 passing TDs and 5 INTs in his last 5 games. He has 3 rushing TDs and 4 fumbles. His stats are skewed from playing the Dolphins at the beginning of the year.

The Bill.. two mid firsts would have done it..


The Bills offered the Giants two first rounders?
Wait until 2020-2021 for a QB?  
nzyme : 10/21/2019 10:16 am : link
What makes you think the organization is going be in a position to draft one of the top 2 QBs in either one of those drafts?
RE: Just to be clear on Allen...  
Platos : 10/21/2019 10:19 am : link
In comment 14638322 bw in dc said:
Quote:
He's had 5 sacks in his last 5 games. And he's getting terrific all-around pressure. He's really stepped it up and looks like the real deal...


pfft, BJ Hill had 5.5 sacks in only 4 games! /s
This is another comical thread  
5BowlsSoon : 10/21/2019 10:20 am : link
By another I knowledgeable fan. You have a right to voice your opinion but Look at Josh Allenís first year. How many tds did he throw? A few maybe. How many fumbles and interceptions did he have?

Even this year, while they are 4-1, donít you think itís mostly because of their defense?

Josh canít compare to Jonesí accuracy....
Fumbles Darnold?  
Greg from LI : 10/21/2019 10:22 am : link
Really don't think this is the right time to be throwing stones at any other QB's ball security problems, do you? Three fumbles yesterday, six fumbles in six games. Darnold had five in all of 2018.
Umm..  
FatMan in Charlotte : 10/21/2019 10:22 am : link
Wrong Allen there, Ace
What is the continued fascination on all these QB threads with  
PatersonPlank : 10/21/2019 10:25 am : link
constantly comparing Eli and Jones. Its immaterial. Eli was great, he took the Giants to 2 SB's, and now his time is done. Its Jones team now period.

If you want to discuss Jones play then fair enough, he's been up and down like any rookie. But please stop with the Eli would have done this or not that, and I mean this for both Eli supporters and Eli "non-supporters".
I would rather be in  
stoneman : 10/21/2019 10:30 am : link
rookie QB hell than a year of stronger D and Eli hell.
RE: Umm..  
Jimmy Googs : 10/21/2019 10:31 am : link
In comment 14638424 FatMan in Charlotte said:
Quote:
Wrong Allen there, Ace


Either works...

:-)
I dont see what the problem is...  
EricJ : 10/21/2019 10:37 am : link
the kid is an accurate passer and he has courage in the pocket. We have also heard from coaches and other players that he is a smart mo-fo and is picking up the system quickly. These are the elements that are tougher to teach. The rest of the stuff can be cleaned up.

Again... look at the other rookie QBs over time and see what their starts looked like and probably under better conditions too.

I am not worried about Jones. He is actually one of the few concerns that I have with this team.
RE: Let's see..  
Zeke's Alibi : 10/21/2019 10:38 am : link
In comment 14638386 FatMan in Charlotte said:
Quote:
exactly how favorable Lamar Jackson will be perceived when he actually needs to complete an important aspect of the position - throwing the ball.

And hell, for as much as people talk about emulating the ravens, interestingly enough, they did something that's a huge no-no - they went and threw $$$ at a RB coming off his first contract......


Lamar Jackson had one good drive yesterday and people were like See! He's awesome! I see this shit with casual fans and scrambling QBs all the time. A QB scrambling for 40 yards looks a lot more electric than a 40 yard pass, but last I checked 40 yards is still 40 yards. Its shades of Mike Vick again. QB's make more money than RB's because they are responsible for more yards.
RE: Umm..  
PatersonPlank : 10/21/2019 10:38 am : link
In comment 14638424 FatMan in Charlotte said:
Quote:
Wrong Allen there, Ace


LOL
Dan Jones good  
ghost718 : 10/21/2019 10:41 am : link
Dan Jones bad
Barkley bad too

Might be good next week
I rather have Jones and his turnovers then Eliís checkdowns.  
Jim in Hoboken : 10/21/2019 10:41 am : link
He needs to protect the ball better though. Heís going backwards right now.

People were quick to proclaim Jones the franchise after two games, why canít they let others have their opposing views?

QB is the most important position, so gambling on one is understandable. Itís pretty clear now RB is a luxury a team like ours just doesnít need right now.
RE: Let's see..  
Jim in Forest Hills : 10/21/2019 10:41 am : link
In comment 14638386 FatMan in Charlotte said:
Quote:

And hell, for as much as people talk about emulating the ravens, interestingly enough, they did something that's a huge no-no - they went and threw $$$ at a RB coming off his first contract......


To be fair - they signed Ingram to a 3 year 15M deal, it wasn't breaking the bank ala Gurley/Elliot.
Strong disagree  
AcesUp : 10/21/2019 10:50 am : link
This organization was overdue to address the most important position on the field and he's shown plenty for a rookie, even flashing in every one of these bad games over this stretch. QB progression isn't linear.
RE: Dan Jones good  
Big Blue '56 : 10/21/2019 10:57 am : link
In comment 14638477 ghost718 said:
Quote:
Dan Jones bad
Barkley bad too

Might be good next week


Bingo!

Remember after his player of the week designation how many came on here and said, ďI was wrong about DJĒ after only one game? They also opine how rookie QBs will have their ups and downs.
RE: Jones is looking more and more like David Carr  
Jay on the Island : 10/21/2019 10:59 am : link
In comment 14638308 DeepBlueJint said:
Quote:
Boy, the similarities.

You need to see an optometrist then because they are nothing alike.
I'm still happy with the pick....  
Britt in VA : 10/21/2019 11:02 am : link
Watching him vs. Kyler Murray yesterday, I came away with thinking Jones was doing a lot more, and less protected. I think overall, once he cleans some stuff up, he'll be the better QB. And Haskins? Well....

I still like the Jones pick.
For the most part  
RollBlue : 10/21/2019 11:09 am : link
I like what I've seen from Jones. The coaching, on the other hand, has been horrific for quite some time with this team, and not just Shurmur. How Chandler Jones was not accounted for on more than one occasion is just criminal.

The Jones fumble near mid field in the 3rd quarter was a result of having a pass catching TE responsible for protecting Jones' blind side against C Jones - just asking for problems. Now, hopefully Jones will learn to recognize that he has to get that ball out quickly, even if it means throwing the ball a Barkley's feet and moving to the next down.

Then in the 4th quarter, Cards blitz a DB who Reemers fans out to block, Zeigler looks inside, not sure if he blocked anyone, and C Jones runs untouched between them. To add a cherry on top, Barkley is right there and could have slowed him down some, but he rights out the way to his right.

The team is very poorly prepared week in and week out.
Wow. Disagree completely.  
Vin_Cuccs : 10/21/2019 11:15 am : link
Jones was far from the biggest issue yesterday. He outplayed Murray by a long ways with incompetent play calling and little to no help.
23 pressures the OL allowed yesterday  
jeff57 : 10/21/2019 11:17 am : link
13 more than their worst showing of this season.
RE: For the most part  
Greg from LI : 10/21/2019 11:20 am : link
In comment 14638580 RollBlue said:
Quote:
The Jones fumble near mid field in the 3rd quarter was a result of having a pass catching TE responsible for protecting Jones' blind side against C Jones - just asking for problems.


Chandler Jones wasn't on Daniel Jones' blind side on that play.
Yikes  
Cap'n Bluebeard : 10/21/2019 11:32 am : link
The OP is an idiot, but I think these two drafts will be analyzed and overanalyzed for years to come, much like the Manning-Rivers trade in 2004 and for good reason.

To start, I'll go on record again that Barkley and Jones were not my first choice in either draft. I have nothing against either player and I wasn't angry with their selection at the time since WTF do I know anyway? I recognize that Barkley is one of the best RBs in the game and Jones has shown enough that I think he has the potential to be a solid starting QB and perhaps a star if he develops.

However, I think there is a legitimate question of whether the Giants would have been better off drafting Darnold/Bradley Chubb/Nelson in the 1st and a RB like Chubb or Kerryon Johnson in the 2nd in 2018 and Josh Allen at 6 in 2019 with an eye on the QBs in 2020.

The thing is that we won't have any kind of answer to this for years, if ever. It hinges on the careers of Barkley and those 2nd tier RBs, as well as the development and careers of Jones, the 2018 QB class, the 2019 QB class, and even the 2020 QB class to a lesser extent.

It's an interesting question, I think, but ultimately futile to try to answer with any certainty by anyone not suffering from Dunning-Kruger. At least not for years and years.
RE: this team would be 0-7 with Eli.  
jeffusedtobeonwebtv : 10/21/2019 11:33 am : link
In comment 14638284 GiantNatty said:
Quote:
and it wouldn't be close.


And if tampa bay actually had a professional level kicker, the Giants would now be 1-6 with Jones.

For the last two weeks we heard how tough it was facing the #6 defense and the #1 defense on the league. The Cardinals rank near the bottom in defense. That did not seem to make much of a difference.
RE: So we are judging Jones after 5 games  
Big_N : 10/21/2019 11:38 am : link
In comment 14638310 joeinpa said:
Quote:


In his first start Jones overcame and 18 pt deficit, something Eli never accomplishing 15 seasons

Think you need to give the kid a break here.


let's see him do it again now that there is tape on him. Heck TB obviously slept on his scrambling at Duke and never bothered to do it. He could n't even overcome a 6 point deficit yesterday against the Cards.
RE: I rather have Jones and his turnovers then Eliís checkdowns.  
Big_N : 10/21/2019 11:43 am : link
In comment 14638480 Jim in Hoboken said:
Quote:
He needs to protect the ball better though. Heís going backwards right now.

People were quick to proclaim Jones the franchise after two games, why canít they let others have their opposing views?

QB is the most important position, so gambling on one is understandable. Itís pretty clear now RB is a luxury a team like ours just doesnít need right now.


You'd rather have DJs turn overs? Why not Eli's turn overs? He used to be a gunslinger before these horrible West Coast Offence bullshit coaches were hired.

But rather have Djs turnovers. OK that is a good opinion. Where do you go with something like that? Can't help but wonder how many other hysterical Duke fans have that opinion on this board.
Hindsight is always 20/20  
Marty866b : 10/21/2019 11:44 am : link
I just wonder what DG would have done differently if he could turn back the clock? Maybe pick Nelson or Darnold last year? Even though we all love Barkley's obvious talent here I wonder if we ran a poll of who we should have picked #2 last year what it would show? In hindsight, I would have picked Nelson.
RE: Yikes  
Big_N : 10/21/2019 11:46 am : link
In comment 14638668 Cap'n Bluebeard said:
Quote:
The OP is an idiot, but I think these two drafts will be analyzed and overanalyzed for years to come, much like the Manning-Rivers trade in 2004 and for good reason.

To start, I'll go on record again that Barkley and Jones were not my first choice in either draft. I have nothing against either player and I wasn't angry with their selection at the time since WTF do I know anyway? I recognize that Barkley is one of the best RBs in the game and Jones has shown enough that I think he has the potential to be a solid starting QB and perhaps a star if he develops.

However, I think there is a legitimate question of whether the Giants would have been better off drafting Darnold/Bradley Chubb/Nelson in the 1st and a RB like Chubb or Kerryon Johnson in the 2nd in 2018 and Josh Allen at 6 in 2019 with an eye on the QBs in 2020.

The thing is that we won't have any kind of answer to this for years, if ever. It hinges on the careers of Barkley and those 2nd tier RBs, as well as the development and careers of Jones, the 2018 QB class, the 2019 QB class, and even the 2020 QB class to a lesser extent.

It's an interesting question, I think, but ultimately futile to try to answer with any certainty by anyone not suffering from Dunning-Kruger. At least not for years and years.

Oh I think we've seen enough. When Barley plays well like last season the Giants lose a lot of games. When Barley plays bad like yesterday the Giants lose just the same. I have to laugh at all the people acting like Gettlemen is another business as usual Giants insider GM when Ernie would NEVER pick a RB that high and build a team around him
RE: RE: Yikes  
Big Rick in FL : 10/21/2019 11:49 am : link
In comment 14638722 Big_N said:
Quote:
In comment 14638668 Cap'n Bluebeard said:


Quote:


The OP is an idiot, but I think these two drafts will be analyzed and overanalyzed for years to come, much like the Manning-Rivers trade in 2004 and for good reason.

To start, I'll go on record again that Barkley and Jones were not my first choice in either draft. I have nothing against either player and I wasn't angry with their selection at the time since WTF do I know anyway? I recognize that Barkley is one of the best RBs in the game and Jones has shown enough that I think he has the potential to be a solid starting QB and perhaps a star if he develops.

However, I think there is a legitimate question of whether the Giants would have been better off drafting Darnold/Bradley Chubb/Nelson in the 1st and a RB like Chubb or Kerryon Johnson in the 2nd in 2018 and Josh Allen at 6 in 2019 with an eye on the QBs in 2020.

The thing is that we won't have any kind of answer to this for years, if ever. It hinges on the careers of Barkley and those 2nd tier RBs, as well as the development and careers of Jones, the 2018 QB class, the 2019 QB class, and even the 2020 QB class to a lesser extent.

It's an interesting question, I think, but ultimately futile to try to answer with any certainty by anyone not suffering from Dunning-Kruger. At least not for years and years.


Oh I think we've seen enough. When Barley plays well like last season the Giants lose a lot of games. When Barley plays bad like yesterday the Giants lose just the same. I have to laugh at all the people acting like Gettlemen is another business as usual Giants insider GM when Ernie would NEVER pick a RB that high and build a team around him


Holy shit you are a dumb dumb.
To the OP:  
Big Blue '56 : 10/21/2019 11:51 am : link
Do I need to go back to the threads to see what you posted after DJís ďplayer of the weekĒ performance? Just askiní
I wanted Allen (and maybe Fromm or someone from 2020)  
Bill L : 10/21/2019 12:04 pm : link
but I really think everything worked out for the best. Jones is going to be very very good and, overall, he's the best fit for NY. The Jones/Barkley combo is going to be awesome eventually.
Jones: Fate is the hunter  
DeepBlueJint : 10/21/2019 1:41 pm : link
It is unfortunate that some respondents do not read and comprehend. I am not declaring that Daniel Jones is not a good QB or a potential franchise QB.

But fate is the hunter. Timing matters. IMHO, this team is not ready for a potential franchise QB. And his statistics to date and the performance of the team indicates as such.

I mentioned David Carr because I believe he was a good prospect for being a franchise QB. In 2002 in 16 games, his team was 4-12. He completed 52.5% of his passes. 9TDs and 15INTs, 76 Sacks and 13 Fumbles.

In five full games, Daniel Jones has 6TDs, 7INTs, 61.1% completion of passes, 18 sacks (over 16 games that is tracking to 50 sacks), 6 Fumbles. Seems to track Carr.

Seems to me that fate is handing Jones a bad set of cards.

Iím concerned that he is being ruined by the current situation with the Giants. And that is my point. As such I would have preferred to draft Josh Allen and wait for 2020 or 2021.

And no, I would not want Darnold because he would be in the same tragic situation.
RE: What is the continued fascination on all these QB threads with  
exiled : 10/21/2019 2:21 pm : link
Quote:
If you want to discuss Jones play then fair enough, he's been up and down like any rookie. But please stop with the Eli would have done this or not that, and I mean this for both Eli supporters and Eli "non-supporters".

+1 I see no reason why an assessment of DJ keeps automatically becoming a comparison to Eli. Different players, different strengths, different ages and levels of experience. The core problem is the offense, not the QB. That much is clear. Neither has had an opportunity to be successful.
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