The Problems with the Giants Offense

don't protect (or not) the QB, or block in the run game.

don't get separation. And I think that's a mix between physical limitations and playcalling.

And it also is why I'm really excited about Jones. Him being able to complete passes to covered WR's is pretty impressive.

You really need to ask yourself - when was the last time we had a WR wide open? Slayton and OBJ have occasionally been free deep, but what about those plays where a guy is free 10+ yards, either through a coverage breakdown or just being really good? Happens rarely.

whatsoever.

Yet people assured me all offseason that the Giants didn't need good receivers because they just had to spread the ball around a lot and everything would be fine.

Some of us noted the weakness at WR before the season and we were shouted down.

with this team, Engram is near the top.

I feel like it's been a constant cycle of flashes of ability, injuries, drops. For this offense to succeed as currently constructed, Engram needs to be a major factor and he just hasn't been. It also needs Shepard and Barkley healthy.

In comment 14638640 FatMan in Charlotte said:

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don't get separation. And I think that's a mix between physical limitations and playcalling. And it also is why I'm really excited about Jones. Him being able to complete passes to covered WR's is pretty impressive. You really need to ask yourself - when was the last time we had a WR wide open? Slayton and OBJ have occasionally been free deep, but what about those plays where a guy is free 10+ yards, either through a coverage breakdown or just being really good? Happens rarely.

I was watching the chargers game in 4 o'clock window. There was a play where a charger WR was wide open over middle of field for like a 25 yard gain. I was thinking Jesus, when was the last time a Giants WR came so open where it was a SIMPLE pitch and catch. It seems like everything Jones does includes a blanketed or well covered WR. Are the route concepts just easy to defend? Why can NOBODY get open?

Also when AZ blitzes that isn't solely on the OL. Its also on the RB's to pick people up, the WR's to cut routes short and get open, and the QB to get rid of the ball. If the WR's aren't doing their part the whole thing falls apart.

Also if the defense has no respect for the WR's, then they will load the LOS up and of course it makes running hard. Good teams will then pick the DB's apart since they are in man coverage, we can't so teams keep doing it.

Our OL has players who have had decent/good success other places (hell Zeitler is an All Pro), and a 2nd round rookie who was all rookie team. I don't think the talent is bad, I Think our WR's suck and Shurmur sucks.

I don't think its as easy as just saying the OL, but that is what everyone wants to do.

In comment 14638640 FatMan in Charlotte said:

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don't get separation. And I think that's a mix between physical limitations and playcalling. And it also is why I'm really excited about Jones. Him being able to complete passes to covered WR's is pretty impressive. You really need to ask yourself - when was the last time we had a WR wide open? Slayton and OBJ have occasionally been free deep, but what about those plays where a guy is free 10+ yards, either through a coverage breakdown or just being really good? Happens rarely.

You are spot on! The Giants wr's seem to being wearing DB's like a second skin and have to fight for every catch. On rare occasion a Giants wr will be open. What is it, speed, route running?

Never has made a Pro Bowl, never named to an All-Pro team. He was a good player in Cleveland but after the trade you had people here pumping up his reputation to the point that he sounded like John Hannah.

you are correct. Line play needs to improve but many times Jones is holding the ball too long because nobody is open. It seems like all his passes have to be perfect because they are in such close windows. No separation. We need more speed at the position.

not being able to get separation is a big problem. Jones is throwing into incredibly tight windows, even by NFL standards. That's the main reason why he holds the ball so long, which of course increases the likelihood that he will be hit and fumble, or throw an INT.

But the OL is still a bigger problem IMO. Three-fifths needs to be replaced this offseason. It's barely better than before DG arrived.

After a game where they surrendered 8 sacks and almost countless hits and pressures. Alrighty then.

Yes, the receivers are not very good but Jones is under duress on just about every pass play no matter what the distance. IMO, the o-line has been awful, especially both tackles and I don't exactly see huge running lanes for the backs. Jones may have held the ball too long for some of the EIGHT sacks but at least half or more of them was not on the quarterback and what is the excuse for three holding penalties to boot? The problem with the Giants offense is lack of talent.

-You can see Latimer is effectively been demoted for Fowler
-Zero separation is painful to watch
-Few Double moves (what Shep does well)
-Our pick plays aren't working
-Lazy breaks, CBs sit on the digs and curls
-It seems like our receivers may also key routes to the CBs

So it's impossible to critique play calls unless you can tease which are terrible receiver play. I see some plays where the receivers ended up bunched downfield within 10-15 yards of each other - I know that can't possibly be how it's drawn up...

right. The receivers aren't getting enough separation on their routes. The o-line isn't doing a great job in pass protection. But there's more.

Barkley needs to improve his blitz pickups. Jones needs to adjust the protection at the line when the defense is showing blitz.

In comment 14638647 Greg from LI said:

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Yet people assured me all offseason that the Giants didn't need good receivers because they just had to spread the ball around a lot and everything would be fine. Some of us noted the weakness at WR before the season and we were shouted down.

By whom? Forget the trolls, who insisted on that? I thought we’d be ok (still do) with SB as an added receiver (didn’t figure on him missing 3 games, or having two of those receivers out)..I would love a receiver that can open things up. Some here said Slayton might provide that deep speed (I wouldn’t know having never seen him play). But yes, a speedy WR in the draft is a must.

call me crazy but getting whipped by the Cardinals defense is a major alert

In comment 14638665 Marty866b said:

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Yes, the receivers are not very good but Jones is under duress on just about every pass play no matter what the distance. IMO, the o-line has been awful, especially both tackles and I don't exactly see huge running lanes for the backs. Jones may have held the ball too long for some of the EIGHT sacks but at least half or more of them was not on the quarterback and what is the excuse for three holding penalties to boot? The problem with the Giants offense is lack of talent.

That's kinda what I see. Most of the sacks were before DJ could even begin to scan the field.........

OL is a huge disappointment. I said in preseason block it right and average receivers can get open. Right now, those tight windows are because we simply don't have much time.

Outside of the TB game and obvious run downs, I'm not seeing a ton of stacked boxes watching on the telecast. Peterson even stated that they copied the Pats in running a lot of Tampa 2 against us. Teams are getting there with four pretty easily and when they do blitz, we're not picking them up.

that the OL isn't the problem.

But yesterday both the OL and DL heavily contributed to the Giants losing - maybe even the key reason they lost.

In comment 14638655 Greg from LI said:

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Never has made a Pro Bowl, never named to an All-Pro team. He was a good player in Cleveland but after the trade you had people here pumping up his reputation to the point that he sounded like John Hannah.

Cmon Zeitler is a good player. He's a 1st rd draft pick, he was on the all rookie team, he was the highest graded Bengal OL player and started 71 of 72 games there. Finally he was (maybe still is) the highest paid G in the league, some people thought he is really good. Lets not make it sound like he's even average.

Our tackles are terrible so there is definitely a problem with the OL. Barkley still getting hit in the backfield too often. But yes, our WR corps leaves a lot to be desired.

*SIGH* Another year of non competitive Giants football. Yay.

I'm simply saying that you (and many other people) have been wrong when you called him an All-Pro because he's never been one, nor has he been named to a Pro Bowl.

That said the O Line ALSO sucked. This entire team is terrible minus a few people. These are almost entirely Gettelman's guys....

Look at where the resources were spent - on the line, and at RB.

The WR corps are less than average for your NFL team, because the thinking was a solid running attack would open up the passing game for either Eli or DJ.

Well - despite all of Barkley's talent, they can't effectively run the ball. That's on the OL. Can't run the ball? Good luck passing it, since the D will be able to cheat in coverage.

Then for good measure throw in the occasional brain fart in playcalling, and you have your answer as to why the Giants are in the predicament they're in today.

Our WRs have not been healthy or together all season. Tate missed 4 games and Shep has been out more than hes played. our Ol still isn't good.

We just lack good players as a whole. yes SB is great, Zeitler is a good player and EE is a good player. Who else? I think when the whole O is healthy we are average. When you take away pieces we quickly fall to below average. You have to remember our best players on O have all missed time, SB, SS, EE and Tate and we have barely been with the 1st string as a whole unit if at all so yea we are a below average O. latimer was supposed to be a #3 and has been a #2 all season. Fowler was cut and now he is back playing significant time because the unit cant stay healthy.

If the entire O was healthy I think we can be a good efficient O but thats just not the case.

the poor receiving corps, a rookie QB being gameplanned for, and predictable play calling due to trying to protect the offense from itself.

In comment 14638640 FatMan in Charlotte said:

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don't get separation. And I think that's a mix between physical limitations and playcalling. And it also is why I'm really excited about Jones. Him being able to complete passes to covered WR's is pretty impressive. You really need to ask yourself - when was the last time we had a WR wide open? Slayton and OBJ have occasionally been free deep, but what about those plays where a guy is free 10+ yards, either through a coverage breakdown or just being really good? Happens rarely.

I was at the game sitting about 35 seats back from the end zone. I could see the plays develop perfectly from my view point. It was amazing how covered our receivers were pretty much every play. None of them were getting separation which left jones scrambling at the end of many plays or just forcing bad throws.

It was depressing.

I thought that was more important then actually getting open..

I agree the OL isn't as bad.. yesterday was weird as there was tons of rain and the conditions were horrible.. I am not as down on the OL as others..

The WRs don't get separation but we knew that..and one thing I learned last year was Engram isn't good enough to be the first passing option.. he doesn't scare defenses like a true #1 WR would do.. between him, shepard and Tate we have 3 guys we all are optimal working out of the slot.. lets dump one of them for someone outside.. there are some good WR coming out..

has made excellent points.

Allow me to also add that our offensive plays have zero creativity. Zero!

Zero!

1. play action incomplete pass
2. Shotgun handoff
3. 6 yard slant pass.
4. punt

Our playbook is the thinnest in the NFL. I guess at least we are environmentally friendly.

But then......the ball goes thru his hands.......this 2019 team cannot move the ball on offense, cannot get off the field on defense, is out coached constantly......this version of giants football out and out sucks.

In comment 14638687 AcesUp said:

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Outside of the TB game and obvious run downs, I'm not seeing a ton of stacked boxes watching on the telecast. Peterson even stated that they copied the Pats in running a lot of Tampa 2 against us. Teams are getting there with four pretty easily and when they do blitz, we're not picking them up.

^This.

what stuck out to me was that the Cowboys receivers immediately got separation on short routes without double moves and (seemingly) without exceptional speed. It seemed to be through clever play design. this led to quick throughs and a successful short passing attack.

in the Green Bay game Rogers was completing passes to receivers that were as covered as ours (zero separation) but the receivers were shielding from the defender. again, a successful passing attack.

don't know what to make of what I saw with Green Bay, but the conclusion from the Cowboys game is clear. Some separation has to come from play design.

Yup, can't consistently defeat seven in the box, can't beat the two deep shell. Different QB, similar results.

These insights from the live game are really helpful. You actually had a similar critique earlier in the season (the Bills game, I think), so it’s a problem that’s not improving. Disappointing. I guess SS will help when he’s back—for as long as that lasts. Overall, I feel like he misses a lot of games.

I had/have high hopes for Slayton becoming that deep separation guy who takes the top off giving Jones under routes to Tate and Shep and Engram, but he needs work on his route tree apparently.

Anybody at the games that sees him getting separation but Daniel Pocket Lint is not seeing it yet?

Easy. I'm a Danny Dimes fan.

Rarely wide open and almost always tightly contested .
Jones can be very good in those tight spaces but the
chance of an Int ball batted i the air are going to
happen more . Also getting guys killed with these short throws
because we can't threaten them deep . ELLISON
needs to be involved more and I hope they look for a bigger TE
than can catch and hopefully block some .

In comment 14638689 Dnew15 said:

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that the OL isn't the problem. But yesterday both the OL and DL heavily contributed to the Giants losing - maybe even the key reason they lost.

Absolutely. You talk about controlling the LOS and winning in the NFL.

Cards did it yesterday, Giants did not.

He's also a deep threat which is sorely lacking in this offense. Sterling Shepard is an excellent WR but he's not someone DC's have to constantly double team. There are good players here but they really need to invest in another WR early in the draft. OT is the bigger need at the moment but the Giants need to come away with another WR on day one or two.

Luckily for the Giants this draft is loaded at WR. They need to protect Jones and give him an opportunity to thrive.

Isn't totally wrong you also need to give the system some of the blame as vetted in many threads past few days, and face facts:

We haven't drafted ilbs and safeties high in forever.

And haven't had the ball hawk safeties since 1967 or something.

So, fix the run game, the outside runs, the play action, and suck it up while we draft D for one draft.

In comment 14639642 idiotsavant said:

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Isn't totally wrong you also need to give the system some of the blame as vetted in many threads past few days, and face facts: We haven't drafted ilbs and safeties high in forever. And haven't had the ball hawk safeties since 1967 or something. So, fix the run game, the outside runs, the play action, and suck it up while we draft D for one draft.

1967 is a great example of where the Giants should be : ( -- I wasn't addressing Defense -- but you can't expect a running game without some other threats out there.. this offensive line isn't a great line -- but if the QB can get the ball out in two seconds it is adequate.

In comment 14639642 idiotsavant said:

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Isn't totally wrong you also need to give the system some of the blame as vetted in many threads past few days, and face facts: We haven't drafted ilbs and safeties high in forever. And haven't had the ball hawk safeties since 1967 or something. So, fix the run game, the outside runs, the play action, and suck it up while we draft D for one draft.

You fix the run game by getting a better Tackle and a better Center. You win the games in the trenches. The receiving core has been hurt. They struggled ot get open because you add up the combination of Barkley just coming back, Shep being out, a bad coach, the OL not being good and Tate not exactly a burner, - youe not going to win very many football games.

I think many here had expectations that were out of whack of reality. This is a bad football team that is not well coached. When you these things up - you're going to look bad.

I'm with SY on a lot of his analysis. The OL has been bad.
So for me - they need two OL to replace the RT and C. Get one in FA and get 1 in rd 1 or rd 2 of the draft. I sort of favor trading down because the GMEN need a lot. That wya you get defense too in both FA and in draft.

terrible. The defensive gameplan is to stop Barkley, make the kid beat you with these half ass receivers.

But the OL is not going to get a get out of jail,pass here. They stink....