I think there is an absolute majority on this board, with very few in the minority, who feel that Pat Shurmur is not a good football coach.
Knowing this team as well as we all do, is there anyone who truly believes this team would entertain letting him go after this season?
I think it would take a PR nightmare that would make the Eli-Geno Smith nonsense seem like small potatoes for this management group to even consider firing Shurmur after this season.
I would eat my hat if it does happen, but he's going to get bailed out by the rookie QB/full season with his own QB excuse.
I try very hard not to be a sky is falling guy. As much as I never wanted him here, I embraced the idea that he might work magic with QBs/offenses. I guess there's been a hope that he is not who a lot of us thought he was, but yesterday's loss was as devastating as they come because of the realization that not only do we have a bad football coach, but one who will likely be here until January 2021.
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Fired Handley after two losing seasons Fassel after one losing season Coughlin after three losing season (and he had the benefit of two super bowls) and McAdoo during one losing campaign
There are still nine games to go but if we finish 5-11 again I don’t see Shurmur returning
What 5 games are we going to win?
right now we're looking at maybe beating Miami
That's why he should be let go at the end of the year.
As a fan, part of me says give them another year. Firing Bettcher and a few assistants isn't like to be a solution in terms of where we're trying to go. In trusting what I see, I'd look at cleaning out the coaching staff.
The problem is DG is likely to remain, and I'm not so sure he's part of the long term solution either. But, at this point in time things feel a lot like some of us feared they would when these hires were made.
As a fan, part of me says give them another year. Firing Bettcher and a few assistants isn't like to be a solution in terms of where we're trying to go. In trusting what I see, I'd look at cleaning out the coaching staff.
The problem is DG is likely to remain, and I'm not so sure he's part of the long term solution either. But, at this point in time things feel a lot like some of us feared they would when these hires were made.
the most significant worry is that Jones looks to have regressed somewhat. Perhaps that is expected, taking lumps as a rook. But he hasn't looked as much of a gamer the last three weeks.
I think PS must help this kid improve through the season. We'll know it when we see it. If he can't get Jones to show improvement from week 3 to week 15-17, then maybe it is time to move on. I liked the Shurm hire at the time. DG I never liked, and would be happy if he went with the coach if he is fired.
Sounds like a QB coach to me
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That's horrendously bad. Even Norv Turner has a better winning percentage than that.
It could just be that Shurmur is a good OC and not a good HC
It's actually a very impressive record when the you consider that he actually won 9 games in two seasons with Colt McCoy, Seneca Wallace, and Brandon Weeden (in his rookie year) as his starting QBs, coaching what was probably the worst roster in the NFL in both of those seasons, and his season last year with Eli Manning, who was on his last legs, yet still showed a lot of improvement, coaching another team whose talent-level was stripped bare by the prior regime.
If this guy can win 14 games with the '14 and '15 Browns and the '18 Giants, he's not the problem. Those teams shouldn't win ANY games, except maybe 1 or 2 a season at best.
People are overreacting to the situation here. We're just seeing a team in transition, that WILL get better. I don't think Shurmur's the problem.
Wow is that bar low, maybe someday they could be a .500 team! Don’t you think his teams played some backup QBs on bad teams.
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what makes you think it's 80% gettleman's fault? gettleman isn't actively losing close games by making bone-headed, chicken-shit in-game decisions.. what exactly is it you fault gettleman for? a couple free agent acquisitions you don't like, several of whom are no longer on the team? the beckham trade? seriously? what has he done that has been so egregiously bad?
My issues with DG relate to the talent on this team
O Line
1) Solder is terrible
2) Remmers is terrible
3) He drafted one Guard in the 2nd rd and another in the 7th
4) Zeitler has been mmeh - maybe the Browns knew something
WRs
1) No, not OBJ - he got good value for an oft injured WR
2) It's that he replaces OBJ with cast offs and injury bugs
3) While killing us in the cap this year
Front 7
1) Ogletree was a terrible trade
2) Martin was a god awful signing
3) Pierre was a god awful signing
Secondary
1) Bethea may be a top 10 worst signing in franchise history
Draft
1) Spend a 4th on Lauletta
2) Don't trade down from '18 #2 -
3) Spend #2 on a generational RB - that's the rebuilding last piece, not the first
4) McIntosh hasn't played above his draft round
5) Hill hasn't played above his draft round
6) Carter hasn't played above his draft round
7) Love hasn't played a snap
So as I look at what this team needs going forward
LT
RT
WR
ER (once Golden signs elsewhere)
DT (once he lets Tomlinson walk)
FS
CB
Slot
LB
I still see plenty of holes. So no DG does not get a pass.
But maybe you can tell me why I'm wrong. Please use empty substance, hot take terms like generational, franchise, trenches, and hog mollie.
John Mara just locked himself in his private bathroom. We will not see him for a while. LOL
I’m not accusing any player of cowardice (except for DeAndre Baker who should donate his paycheck to this teammates). The demolition of Remmers and Solder in the second half indicates they were losing intensity as the day wore on. The rushing attack in general was less effective in the second half and even less effective in the 4th quarter. It looked like the team was getting progressively more demoralized as the day went on.
So you said there were real signs of quit yesterday but now you're backpedaling, got it. Rushing attack being less effective has ZERO to do with players quitting. Nobody quit on that team. They were competing hard, making big stops in the fourth quarter. You are basically completely talking out of your ass when you say things like "there were signs of quit," and saying "the team was getting progressively more demoralized as the day went on." You have nothing to back up these statements. Sure, nobody likes losing, but lack of effort was not an issue in this game.
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In comment 14639186 Anakim said:
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That's horrendously bad. Even Norv Turner has a better winning percentage than that.
It could just be that Shurmur is a good OC and not a good HC
It's actually a very impressive record when the you consider that he actually won 9 games in two seasons with Colt McCoy, Seneca Wallace, and Brandon Weeden (in his rookie year) as his starting QBs, coaching what was probably the worst roster in the NFL in both of those seasons, and his season last year with Eli Manning, who was on his last legs, yet still showed a lot of improvement, coaching another team whose talent-level was stripped bare by the prior regime.
If this guy can win 14 games with the '14 and '15 Browns and the '18 Giants, he's not the problem. Those teams shouldn't win ANY games, except maybe 1 or 2 a season at best.
People are overreacting to the situation here. We're just seeing a team in transition, that WILL get better. I don't think Shurmur's the problem.
Wow is that bar low, maybe someday they could be a .500 team! Don’t you think his teams played some backup QBs on bad teams.
Not as bad as the teams Shurmur had in Cleveland those two years. And please, what the fuck was Shurmur going to do with the Giants and that defense last year? On the plus side, you can see Manning was MUCH better in Shurmur's system than McAdoo's, and the offense improved in every statistical category as soon as Shurmur installed his system.
There were mistakes, but mostly that team was outmatched and you can clearly see this. Remmers was physically dominated many times over. Murray was very elusive. Daniel Jones played his worst game, making bad decisions with the football and holding the ball too long. Engram dropped 5 passes. There were multiple horrible penalties killing drives and reversing big plays. Rosas misses a chip shot FG.
Despite all this the team was in the game if the offense could've pass protected at all, they had the ball twice late in the 4th with a chance to win the game.
Those things are on the players, that's execution, and that's why we lost. We didn't lose because coaching. Did Shurmur tell Remmers to just grab on and hold Chandler Jones if you're about to get beat? Did he tell Engram not to catch the ball if it comes to you? Please. This team lost because the players played worse than the Cardinals.
All the above are coaching issues.
I have issues with DG as well. What he has going for him is that it seems at this time (and I emphasize seems at this time) that he has done better picking players in the draft. However I have issues with his draft strategy, and certainly with his FA signings.
He was late getting out on a screen forcing Jones to hold the ball to long and getting strip sacked. That play was more on Barkley and Jones.
Also, how many times did Barkley scramble backwards, losing yards. Just can't do that sort of thing. It kills drives. Those plays are the poster plays for the argument against spending too much (draft and money) on RBs.
All the above are coaching issues.
I have issues with DG as well. What he has going for him is that it seems at this time (and I emphasize seems at this time) that he has done better picking players in the draft. However I have issues with his draft strategy, and certainly with his FA signings.
The secondary did not play poorly. Kyler Murray threw for 104 yards. He ran for only 28 yards on 10 carries. That suggests they WERE prepared for what the Cardinals were going to be doing. Edmonds is really fast though, and David Mayo is not. Where they got hurt was Edmonds getting in space and our linebackers not getting out there and getting him. I don't get your post at all. That team had a chance to win, made big stops throughout the night, and didn't execute. They were physically beaten in the trenches on both sides of the ball. That was clearly the issue. And Jones threw some bad balls, held the ball too long...because he wasn't taking the open checkdown and nothing was there downfield. That's not coaching. That's bad execution.
I just don't get your post. And the OL wasn't confused from what I saw. You go back and watch how the Cardinals got to Jones, and it was mostly Chandler Jones abusing Remmers one-on-one.
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What I saw was the same for every game this year with the possible exception of the Redskins, was a team that was not coached up well. Players looked unprepared and had no clue how to respond to what Az was doing. I've been harping on the lack of cohesion and confusion on the OL. These guys are just not on the same page. The DL and Golden got good pressure and generally contained Murray, but Az has an OL as bad as ours... And the LBers and secondary forgot how read plays, take good angles and actually tackle.
All the above are coaching issues.
I have issues with DG as well. What he has going for him is that it seems at this time (and I emphasize seems at this time) that he has done better picking players in the draft. However I have issues with his draft strategy, and certainly with his FA signings.
The secondary did not play poorly. Kyler Murray threw for 104 yards. He ran for only 28 yards on 10 carries. That suggests they WERE prepared for what the Cardinals were going to be doing. Edmonds is really fast though, and David Mayo is not. Where they got hurt was Edmonds getting in space and our linebackers not getting out there and getting him. I don't get your post at all. That team had a chance to win, made big stops throughout the night, and didn't execute. They were physically beaten in the trenches on both sides of the ball. That was clearly the issue. And Jones threw some bad balls, held the ball too long...because he wasn't taking the open checkdown and nothing was there downfield. That's not coaching. That's bad execution.
I just don't get your post. And the OL wasn't confused from what I saw. You go back and watch how the Cardinals got to Jones, and it was mostly Chandler Jones abusing Remmers one-on-one.
Murray is a rookie QB, and the Cards receivers are meh at best.
That said, I didn't say the secondary covered poorly. I said they forgot how to take angles and actually tackle... That was on the LBers also.
And lets not forget the 1st 3 drives, the ones that put the Giants in a hole. The D looked hopeless in trying to stop them. Then after the FG miss, they let AZ march right down the field and get their own FG. Az does not have a good offense...
Yes, small victories, Murray was held to 28 yards rushing. The cards had over 100 yards rushing a few minutes into the second quarter... So maybe not so good after all.
2021? So we're up to 4 years now that this front office needs?
This season isn't about the rookie quarterback. We brought Eli Manning back because we were ready to compete, remember? That's the bill of goods this front office tried to sell us.
Shurmur and Gettleman may try to use Jones as an excuse; we've seen that their capacity for excuse making and blame shifting is extraordinary. If Mara falls for it, shame on him. Another in a long line of errors.
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to immediate gratification and winning right away, this should be entirely expected and you are going to have to wait until Jones gets his NFL sea legs under him and for Gettleman to finish this rebuild. He needs one more draft and a couple of free agent adds to do it. 2021 this team should compete. But this year is supposed to be a losing season...that's what you get with rookie QBs. Just get over it.
2021? So we're up to 4 years now that this front office needs?
This season isn't about the rookie quarterback. We brought Eli Manning back because we were ready to compete, remember? That's the bill of goods this front office tried to sell us.
Shurmur and Gettleman may try to use Jones as an excuse; we've seen that their capacity for excuse making and blame shifting is extraordinary. If Mara falls for it, shame on him. Another in a long line of errors.
What are you talking about? This front office has only been in charge for 2 years.
And if you think that any GM, owner, head coach, ANYONE is going to say anything but 'we're going to try and compete, try to win a Super Bowl,' in the offseason...you're kidding yourself. You do know what canned answers are for the press, right? They are always going to say 'we are trying to win'. What you will never hear is, 'we are rebuilding so we don't expect to have a competitive roster this year.' You're not going to hear that, but it's up to us to see through the bullshit and use our knowledge of the history in the NFL and know that when a new regime takes over, gets rid of a lot of players for picks, and drafts a rookie QB, that some level of losing is about to take place. Because young teams with a lot of rookies, particularly at the QB position, do not normally do well.
I'm sorry you're having trouble with this. Of course they were going to keep Eli. If the line protected him and he surprised everyone and was winning, of course they are going to ride that train and let Jones have a redshirt year. But EVERYTHING would've had to go right...so they are going to put confidence in Eli, in the team, and to sell tickets, saying we are trying to win, but you don't have to be Nostradamus to see that was highly unlikely given the holes on the roster in general AND the fact that Eli hasn't won very much in a long time.
Gettleman has been in charge since just after the 2017 season. So it's been less than 2 years, where he is starting from scratch, and you're complaining. This is a 3 year rebuild. I said it when he was hired. I said it last season, I've said it this season. The Giants won't be a winning team until 2020 at the earliest and most likely 2021. But they should be contending in 2021, and they should be showing a lot of improvement and hopefully in contention for the division next year, and if they aren't, something has gone wrong.
But anyone who was expected different played themselves. Nothing that happened before 2018 matters. This is an entirely new regime that is doing it their way. I'm trusting Gettleman.