Gettleman opted to really pull every lever to not only clear out virtually all of the players he inherited, but to also squeeze every ounce of value out of any remaining talent (taking dead money for draft picks etc.)
What's left is a roster that's basically all Gettleman's choosing and constructed of pretty high asset players.
Looking at the construction of projected starters, does Reese even have a real foot print anymore? Is Gettleman really in a hole Reese left?
Isn't it now this his team and the results on him? Looking at the assets spent, should this be a really bad team? An improving team?
QB: 1st round pick
RB: 1st round pick
WR1: 2nd round pick (JR)
WR2: UFA, large contract
TE1: 1st round pick (JR)
TE2: UFA, nice contract (JR)
LT: UFA, huge contract
LG: 2nd round pick
Center: UDFA
RG: Trade, large contract
RT: UFA, small contract
DE: 3rd round pick
DT: 2nd round pick (JR)
DE: 1st round pick
Edge: UFA, small contract
Edge: 3rd round pick
Inside: Trade, large contract
Inside: 5th round pick
SS: Trade, former 1st round pick
FS: UFA, small contract
CB: UFA, huge contract (JR)
CB: 1st round pick
The other thing about DG is that he said he was gonna kick ass, and that you could win while re-building. The only ass I see getting kicked is the Giants, and on a weekly basis. He also claimed that the line was fixed in the second half of last year. The results on the field speak otherwise. The only ass kicking going on is the being administered by the opposing teams.
I'm ok giving DG a couple more years, but only if he replaces Shurmur with a decent HC after this season.
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You don't understand the logic, or you refuse to acknowledge it?
That doesn't answer anything I posted. Quite simply:
1) What bearing do you think bad draft choices 10 years ago have on the team today? Do you real feel that's relevant?
2) When you said there was no defensive line, do you mean to say Vernon, Snacks, Tomlinson, JPP weren't passable?
3) When you say there was no core, do you mean to say OBJ, Manning, Engram, Shepard, Collins, Jenkins, Vernon, Snacks, Kennard, Tomlinson, JPP, Apple, Jones, Jerry, Okwara, all guys still employed in the NFL weren't are core?
Most importantly, you seem to think I'm implying Gettleman should be done or indicted. I know a lot of folks feel that way. I don't.
I think it's a really young team and gets an incomplete.
I also think it's ridiculous to be blaming Reese for a team Gettleman went to incredible lengths to rebuild in his vision.
I did answer it. Having to rebuild an entire 53 man roster with finite resources over the course of one offseason is a tough task. Why the previous ten years matter is because of what you're starting point is. Compare the team Reese took over from Accorsi to the one Gettleman took over from Reese. Reese didn't have to touch the offensive or defensive line until much later. Much later.
In regards to the core you are saying was present, they were all underperforming and were losing. You yourself said it was probably the right call to ship them out and start over. Gettleman gave that defense a chance before shipping them out, then said to hell with it, I've seen enough and started the full rebuild 8 games into season one. So no, I don't think he inherited a core similar to what Reese inherited when he took over in 2007. Those dudes were already winning games, entering their prime in many cases.
The "core" you are referring to not only were not living up to their contracts, they were pains in the ass to deal with, malcontents by most accounts to boot.
For all the people saying Gettleman miscalculated and we started the rebuild late, well you approximately lost about 8 games before that happened. At least he had the balls to cut his losses and change course unlike Reese who kept trotting Flowers out there at LT year after year.
so yes this is now year 1 apparently
so yes this is now year 1 apparently
Or he started by trying to win now and rebuild concurrently, then realized upon taking the wrapper off that the job was much bigger than he thought (to make an analogy, the plumber comes in to fix a leaky tub but doesn't realize until he actually gets in there and into the actual shit that the entire system of pipes needs to be replaced).
So given how lousy the core that was left, would you agree Gettleman did well to turn JPP, Apple, Snacks, Vernon, and OBJ into: two 3rds, a 4th, 5th, 1st, Peppers, Zeitler?
In his short time as time as GM isn't it quite remarkable he's had:
4 1st round picks
1 2nd round pick
3 3rd round picks
8 players picked in the top 100 over two years?
Doesn't that indicate, in addition to the other trades he made for high salary players and considerable UFA money spent, this is really his team?
So it seems to be less a question about reese and more a continued problem regarding Gettleman.
I continue to just shake my head at the daily ways to crap on the guy.
Even if that were somehow acceptable - the fact that the guys he got to replace the people he sent packing haven't been any good. The FAs were atrocious, and so far most of the draftees are average at best.
Except for Barkley of course, but if he managed to fuck up the 2nd overall pick then the Giants would really be screwed.
So given how lousy the core that was left, would you agree Gettleman did well to turn JPP, Apple, Snacks, Vernon, and OBJ into: two 3rds, a 4th, 5th, 1st, Peppers, Zeitler?
In his short time as time as GM isn't it quite remarkable he's had:
4 1st round picks
1 2nd round pick
3 3rd round picks
8 players picked in the top 100 over two years?
Doesn't that indicate, in addition to the other trades he made for high salary players and considerable UFA money spent, this is really his team?
Yes, I would agree to that he has a good job turning over those players and I am happy with the players we have in place as a result.
But I would also say that all of those pieces are young, many rookies and players that are under 3 years in the league, and it's going to take time to see what we have with it all. Not to mention the supplementing he's going to have to continue to do.
I think one more draft and some money to work with next offseason will give us a clearer picture of what the sum of all this is, and a much clearer vision of what Gettleman's team looks like.
That's a good measurement for what DG should get. So let's say another year or so.
You say give him more time. Ok, that’s fair but what has he done so far to instill confidence that he is headed in the right direction?
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how long did Reese get after 2013 to fix it?
That's a good measurement for what DG should get. So let's say another year or so.
It’s fair game to say that Gettleman got rid of a lot of players and has spent draft and FA resources to replace those players and in the process created as many holes as he has filled. Nor is it unfair to say that he has exhibited some of the same behaviors that led to his downfall in Carolina.The result is a team that is 2-5 and seems to be going backwards.
You say give him more time. Ok, that’s fair but what has he done so far to instill confidence that he is headed in the right direction?
Barkley, Jones, Dexter Lawrence, Will Hernandez, and Peppers are a nice start.
really? how so?
Uh, no.
He was the only candidate recommended by Chief Consulting Officer, Ernie Accorsi.
If Gettleman thought they were too big of assholes or overpaid, I get that.
What I just fundamentally reject is that Gettleman gets a break now because of Reese.
He's spent high picks or good money on virtually every starter. When a GM spends a high pick or good money on a player they should be good players, right?
That's what Reese was bad at, no?
If Gettleman thought they were too big of assholes or overpaid, I get that.
What I just fundamentally reject is that Gettleman gets a break now because of Reese.
He's spent high picks or good money on virtually every starter. When a GM spends a high pick or good money on a player they should be good players, right?
That's what Reese was bad at, no?
He doesn't get a pass but he should get a little time and patience considering the scope of the rebuild.
They wanted him gone again after 2009.
Those views would have cost us two incredible seasons if the owners had been as knee jerk as the fans.
As Gettleman likes to say, when you make decisions based off what the fans think, you're sitting with them.
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My POV is the league didn't view the core of the team as poorly as the fans -- they either brought back good returns or signed elsewhere for nice contracts.
If Gettleman thought they were too big of assholes or overpaid, I get that.
What I just fundamentally reject is that Gettleman gets a break now because of Reese.
He's spent high picks or good money on virtually every starter. When a GM spends a high pick or good money on a player they should be good players, right?
That's what Reese was bad at, no?
He doesn't get a pass but he should get a little time and patience considering the scope of the rebuild.
Completely agree. I feel like Gettleman should not be judged until end of next season. I think he needs to produce a winning season or lose his job.
Based on what he was able to recoup for the players he didn't want, and the money he's been able to spend -- I don't buy the situation he walked into was the tragedy some make it.
I think it's pretty fair for a GM to get top 100 picks right, former 1st rounders he trades for right, and we'll paid UFAs right.
Most of the team he's constructed is made up of those types of players.
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My POV is the league didn't view the core of the team as poorly as the fans -- they either brought back good returns or signed elsewhere for nice contracts.
If Gettleman thought they were too big of assholes or overpaid, I get that.
What I just fundamentally reject is that Gettleman gets a break now because of Reese.
He's spent high picks or good money on virtually every starter. When a GM spends a high pick or good money on a player they should be good players, right?
That's what Reese was bad at, no?
He doesn't get a pass but he should get a little time and patience considering the scope of the rebuild.
So how much time does he get? In a league of parity, where every season we see teams go worst to first, we're at best stuck in neutral and by some measures regressing. A five year rebuild in this league is nonsense. They don't exist, they're just an excuse for failing to put a contending football team on the field. Is the situation Gettelman inherited any worse than what Lynch and Shannahan took over in SF, or what Ballard and Reich took over in Indianpolis minus Luck? The constant excuses are beyond tiresome. Some will be here a year from now making the same ones.
And, even more so than the excuses is the fact that many of the people now making these excuses were predicting playoff berths the last two years. Remember the "Eli Revenge Tour" we were supposedly going to see last year?
More than a few posters have been wildly wrong about this team over the past two seasons, and when their predictions have proven incorrect, they just shrug and say things like "Well, Reese left them in SUCH a bad state that it was always going to take years to turn it around" and "You guys are so impatient!"
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So how much time does he get? In a league of parity, where every season we see teams go worst to first, we're at best stuck in neutral and by some measures regressing. A five year rebuild in this league is nonsense. They don't exist, they're just an excuse for failing to put a contending football team on the field. Is the situation Gettelman inherited any worse than what Lynch and Shannahan took over in SF, or what Ballard and Reich took over in Indianpolis minus Luck? The constant excuses are beyond tiresome. Some will be here a year from now making the same ones.
And, even more so than the excuses is the fact that many of the people now making these excuses were predicting playoff berths the last two years. Remember the "Eli Revenge Tour" we were supposedly going to see last year?
More than a few posters have been wildly wrong about this team over the past two seasons, and when their predictions have proven incorrect, they just shrug and say things like "Well, Reese left them in SUCH a bad state that it was always going to take years to turn it around" and "You guys are so impatient!"
2. Beckham
3. Eli
Jury is still out on the Barkley pick, but that's not looking good either.
Gettleman should not get the opportunity this offseason to splurge on free agents in a week attempt at competing in 2020.
This story ends with Gettleman and Shurmur being fired. The only thing that's up in the air is will it be January 2020 or 2021?
2. Beckham
3. Eli
Jury is still out on the Barkley pick, but that's not looking good either.
Gettleman should not get the opportunity this offseason to splurge on free agents in a week attempt at competing in 2020.
This story ends with Gettleman and Shurmur being fired. The only thing that's up in the air is will it be January 2020 or 2021?
lol Beckham? Brilliant move.
I think DG misjudged the roster last year and thought we could make a run. That's a huge fuck up. We all saw the team in 2017 - how the hell did he need a few games to figure out they sucked?
He does need time to be judged on his drafts. I think it's way too soon to assert they're great, but they've been promising.
But look at his FA signings - guys who we can judge now. He's floundered on the line, and those are all his guys. And he's invested significant resources there. Hernandez, Solder, and Zeitler are serious investments.
I do think he realized this year was going to be a waste. I'm fine giving him another year, but he deserves a ton of shit for the missed FA signings.
2. Beckham
3. Eli
Jury is still out on the Barkley pick, but that's not looking good either.
Gettleman should not get the opportunity this offseason to splurge on free agents in a week attempt at competing in 2020.
This story ends with Gettleman and Shurmur being fired. The only thing that's up in the air is will it be January 2020 or 2021?
Terps, I can see it now.
Giants attempt to splurge in FA on defense in a quick-fix attempt to save jobs next year circa 2016. They go 9-7 and sneak in to the playoffs and then the organization can say that they are a "few tweaks away" from being a real contender, thus justifying everyone returning in 2021 when the bill comes due and those signed players regress.
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Cap cleared....DG's 3rd draft.
And I am not one who thinks Reese is all bad.....but never fixing OL was a killer to the team and devastating to Eli's legacy
Uh, this O-line still isn't fixed and it is all DG except Halapio.
Two years in and with as much roster turnover as there has been, any guys Gettleman has intentionally kept (such as with Halapio being kept and Jones traded away) can also be considered Gettleman guys now even if Reese was the GM of record when they originally joined the team. It's not like he's been handcuffed to Halapio for any particular reason other than him making the conscious decision to keep him.
The whole thing is Gettleman's now, for better or worse.
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the state of the team upon your arrival... and spend the first off-season trying to get pieces to win now... then that year doesn't count towards the rebuild you should be doing.
so yes this is now year 1 apparently
Or he started by trying to win now and rebuild concurrently, then realized upon taking the wrapper off that the job was much bigger than he thought (to make an analogy, the plumber comes in to fix a leaky tub but doesn't realize until he actually gets in there and into the actual shit that the entire system of pipes needs to be replaced).
If you called the plumber initially because you suspected that the whole pipe system was f*cked and he turned around and told you that you only needed to fix the tub, are you still giving the plumber a pass when he eventually concedes that the pipes were indeed f*cked in the first place? Or are you questioning how good of a plumber he actually is that he couldn't see the problem from the start?
IMO, Gettleman shouldn't get a pass for his original assessment of this team. It's his job to accurately assess the roster and act accordingly. He pissed away year one with his incorrect judgment of the team.
Barkley sits right on the vanguard of player value analysis in the NFL. The conventional wisdom is a guy who gains a bunch of yards must be a good value.
What many are starting to question is whether those yards can be replaced by 1) a more efficient position e.g. WR 2) is the replacement value player cheaper in draft resources 2) is the replacement value player cheaper is cash resources.
This type of analysis shouldn't offend sensibilities. Resistance to value analysis is what set many MLB teams back a decade.
There is an outcome that says even the very best RB isn't as valuable or efficient as a good WR, lineman, or even TE.
The assumption the Barkley is an unequivocal great pick is pretty naive.
Good thing this organization has never been hypersensitive to what the fans think and has never ever made any decisions to placate them.
Wanna rattle off any other Gettleman platitudes that have already basically proven to be bullshit during his tenure?
I'm frustrated by the losing, but willing to wait it out and see before I lynch Gettleman (although Shurmur is fair game).
While I would like to see us compete for a playoff spot in 2020, I mostly want to see improvement. 7 or 8 at the minimum. But if we're not competing for the playoffs in 2021, then it's fair to say that Gettlemen's plan has failed.
Christian wasn't suggesting you trade Barkley - but he does make a good point that even if Barkley turns out to be a very good to great player doesn't automatically make him a great pick.
It boils down to - if you could have taken another RB that gets you 75% of the production of Barkley elsewhere, and used the #2 overall to either trade down for multiple players or select another blue chip there (say, Quintin Nelson) - are you better off?
Right now it's hard to argue definitively in either case. The team stinks with Barkley - it stunk last year, and he's injured now but before he was hurt they were still not very good offensively. To insist that he was a great pick because of production - that might turn out to be the case, but in no way is it true right now.
Not what I was saying but even so --there are plenty of outcomes where moving one resource for multiple resources ends up better. That's not controversial.
Gettleman employed that exact approach with Beckham.
One very basic alternative outcome from the 2018 draft that requires no leap of faith; the Giants select Quenton Nelson, Braden Smith, and Royce Freeman.
Behind an offensive line of Solder, Nelson, Halapio, Zeitler, Smith -- chances of the Giants matching 17th in the league in rushing?
The notion Barkley's yards are irreplaceable is very dubious.
That point came and went - and if ownership has a clue, part of this process would be understanding that they're largely to blame.
But John Mara said that his brother is not in the running to replace Reese.
"He does not want to be a candidate, I don't think, for the full-time position," John Mara said during an interview with Mike Francesa on WFAN. "His input is certainly going to be something that is very crucial to the final decision."
Full time position? WTF is he doing now?
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Chris’ background has always been in scouting, working from the bottom of the organization to the top. He has paid his dues and worked hard to become a Vice President, however, because he is also a part owner, his voice has supreme clout. Some might view the Giants as having three GMs: the Mara brothers and Gettleman. And when an NFL team has a committee running their future, they have zero chance to win.
If the Giants were smart, they would hire an outside consulting firm to analyze their organization and either get confirmation that their business model can still work, or be told that they need to revamp. And what has to scare Giants fans the most is that they have not yet reached rock bottom."
Link - ( New Window )
I suspect in a vacuum Gettleman handles things a little differently with the scouting staff, the player personnel choices, and maybe even the coaching.
But he's not in a vacuum, he's general managing Mara's business and Mara has flaws.
Mara has his family embedded in the scouting function, he gets sentimental about players, he's got the mistakes his father made haunting him.
It's a tough gig. I respect the work Gettleman has done despite what I perceive to be outside factors.
But I don't excuse his mistakes as some albatross from the ghost of Jerry Reese.
He wasn't handed and didn't employ rag tag resources to construct this team. It's made up of primarily high picks he chose, traded for, or inherited.
At the same time - there's a difference between being involved and controlling the decisions. Having one of the owners in the role of VP responsible for pro personnel, who considers himself a qualified candidate for the GM spot (even if "not interested in the FT position") is dangerous. It's Daniel Snyder dangerous, albeit with a formal title instead of just a serial meddler.
This is why I was against the Gettleman hire. It was nothing personal for the guy, who I held in high regard for his time as pro personnel director with the Giants during their championship run. It was the comfort level that the rest of the org had that bothered me, and I haven't seen anything to suggest I was wrong.
The scouting department underwent minimal changes. Chris Mara retained his title. Why should anyone expect that the talent acquisition skills of the team would suddenly improve?
I've read here that it was rumored that Ross was lazy and that Reese was disinterested. If that was the case, then most of the personnel decisions would be coming from layers below them. And if that's the case, those layers are still in place today - why wouldn't we expect the same shitty caliber of players?
It seems to me that the FO picked up right where it left off - with the higher picks that had more insight provided by the GM doing better, and the lower round picks being mediocre or worse. FA acquisitions have been equally as bad.