When Does it Stop Being Reese's Fault?

In about 2 more years... reese left the team bare of talent and in cap hell in 2020 we are out of cap hell.. if Dimes develops, we compete in 2020 -2021

You know how the apologists are...they need someone outside the building to blame do they can feel like the team is going in the right direction.

Some of the fans are as lost as the team is.

starting as the Giants do. I think his fingerprints come off when all of his bad contract money does.

Gettleman did something quite unconventional by totally cleaning house. The cap constraints were pretty self inflicted (Beckham contract, Vernon trade, plenty of bad UFAs).

It's pretty unprecedented to re-set like he did.

The team he's put together isn't a bunch of low value players. I wonder how the no. of 1st round picks on the Giants compare to the league average?

In comment 14640163 Paulie Walnuts said:

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In about 2 more years... reese left the team bare of talent and in cap hell in 2020 we are out of cap hell.. if Dimes develops, we compete in 2020 -2021

If Reese left the team in cap hell, how the hell did gettleman get to waste so much money on all these trash signings AND eat the Odell contract? There was no 'cap hell'.

"Reese left the team in cap hell" is Shurmur-level excuse making

With no real identify.

For a guy who keeps talking about trenches and defense he really hasn’t landed any difference makers for either of those.

So mediocre. It’s making fans start to miss the Reese reach picks.

"talent hell".

Now the conventional wisdom seems to be Gettleman has pulled us out if it.

And that begs this simple question - so why doesn't it show up in the standings?

In comment 14640167 smshmth8690 said:

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starting as the Giants do. I think his fingerprints come off when all of his bad contract money does.

What's kind of weird is Gettleman chose to keep Jenkins and Manning, which are really the only "bad" money left from Reese. Given the concerted effort to clear house, in retrospect I'm surprised he kept those two.

Stop touching yourself.

In comment 14640178 bw in dc said:

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"talent hell". Now the conventional wisdom seems to be Gettleman has pulled us out if it. And that begs this simple question - so why doesn't it show up in the standings?

I can get behind the notion there are a lot of 1st and 2nd year guys and it's just a young team. And that next year it will start showing up in the standings.

What I can't get behind is this is somehow a Reese team. The number of high asset players Gettleman has constructed just doesn't support it.

This isn't a roster taped together like last year, with a bunch of fringe NFL types. This is a roster full of valuable players Gettleman has acquired himself.

As most rational posters realized all along

and will never be a GM again. He was a fucking disaster.

That said, there are so few Reese players left after Gettleman's ministrations that you can't blame him.

This is his second year and though it usually takes more time I think anyone would be hard pressed to see any improvement. I think DG has been pretty bad and the proof is on the field.

This is DGs team.
Only 9 players signed or picked by Reese. Probably 6 or fewer left by next year.

THe performance or lack thereof is entirely the responsibility of DG and PS at this point.

While didn't expect the Giants to be good this year, but the lack of improvement is huge red flag.

That said, I’ll give him a pass for pressure from Mars/fans/media to 1) sign Beckham and 2) stick with Eli through the end of his contract. With much increased cap space, 2020 better show massive improvement and this team better at least be challenging for a playoff spot. I would even go so far as to give DG 2 more full seasons (through 2021), but it is up to him to make the correct decision re: Shurmur. I personally don’t like Shurmur as a head coach, but I’m not the paid professional here. This team has to compete in 2020-2021 and the head coach (whoever that is) has a massive impact on that, so DG better get it right and fast. Even if it takes replacing Shurmur as late as 2021 (in the scenario Shurmur gets 2020 and fails miserably), the roster should be strong enough at that point (if DG has made the right moves) to bring in an experienced and talented HC who can have real success in his first year with the team.

Not pressure from Mars lol, that’s sounds like some alien conspiracy theory

If the 2018 Giants had won the Super Bowl, would Jerry Reese have deserved credit? If the 2019 Giants were 7-0, would we be praising Jerry Reese for setting the stage for long-term success?

Jeez, it’s Gettleman’s team, for better or worse. He is what his record says he is.

Ereck Flowers (his athletic testing was one of the lowest first round grades ever)
and
Eli Apple (which this board famously mocked mcginn's anonymous scout that said he had 0 life skills)


he would still be the GM today.

Cap cleared....DG's 3rd draft.

And I am not one who thinks Reese is all bad.....but never fixing OL was a killer to the team and devastating to Eli's legacy

As Gettleman walked into his office on the first day of being the GM, the results are on him. In addition to choosing a full tear down and rebuild as you noted, he picked Shurmur as coach; a major decision that is looking worse by the week.

and I believe there are a few things to consider that I believe to be true.

1. Eli Manning was going to finish his contract and this was a Mara/Tisch mandate. Under this premise, DG tried to stabilize the line and added a "generational" RB to facilitate this. Solder while expensive had been at least a solid LT and there was not one else available. I also think part of signing him was that there was no leadership in the OL room. The same logic applied to Ogletree.

2. Last year, DG went into the season expecting to compete and that to me is playing meaningful games in December. I think he realized how poor the team was early on and why he sold assets and acquired picks. I think this message was presented and accepted by ownership.

So even though it is year two in essence I look at this really as year one but there is a very big problem......coaching.

I think to be fair the team should be judged on next year's performance. I know some are frustrated with the OL but reality is next off-season is the real year to fix it. With another draft and lots of free money they should be able to add some quality players.

The big question is what to do with the coaching staff imo.

Because Jones is a rookie.. if next year is a losing season, then Murmur is gone

In comment 14640242 Big Blue Blogger said:

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If the 2018 Giants had won the Super Bowl, would Jerry Reese have deserved credit? If the 2019 Giants were 7-0, would we be praising Jerry Reese for setting the stage for long-term success? Jeez, it’s Gettleman’s team, for better or worse. He is what his record says he is.

Did Ernie Accorsi get credit in 2007? He did. I believe Ernie Accorsi also deserved some credit in 2011, because those two lines, offense and defense, were built under his watch. Jerry Reese added a lot of excellent supplemental pieces to a very nice core which all contributed. Jerry Reese inherited a very strong roster.

Gettleman, on the other hand, walked into a roster with no core, no offense or defensive lines, which had been driven into the ground for nearly 10 years of horrible, horrible drafting.

At the end of the day, this team is where it is because of nearly a decade of poor roster building, and the inability to replace a core that completely crumbled to dust in 2011.

I think Gettleman deserves longer than 20 months to undo all of that.

Simple answer - coaching. You can bro f in all the talent you want, if the coaching staff can’t develop or utilize that talent you remain a loser. That’s become pretty evident. That’s on Getts he hires this guy.

'Hey, let's get rid of everyone because Reese didn't know what he was doing and the Giants have no talent'

An interesting idea - if not for the fact that the logic it's built on is rickety; the scouting department that Reese lead that picked all those players is STILL INTACT. They're the ones still driving talent acquisition.

And that's without getting into the fact that nobody does a complete teardown of a roster anymore, let alone a team that had been 11-5 two season prior and in the playoffs.

Roster turnover being what it is, a team is going to churn half it's players even if they don't want to every 3 years. Why bother artificially accelerating it, unless you can replace players with better alternatives?

Right now - they subbed in Reese's crap for Gettleman's crap. And at the heart of it all, the group of people responsible for scouting personnel and making major decisions, hiring coaches, evaluating FAs - has not changed. And yet somehow, people are surprised that the team still sucks and suggests the only thing needed is more time.

The Giants are firmly in laughing stock territory, with no signs of them getting out any time soon.

In comment 14640221 .McL. said:

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This is DGs team. Only 9 players signed or picked by Reese. Probably 6 or fewer left by next year. THe performance or lack thereof is entirely the responsibility of DG and PS at this point. While didn't expect the Giants to be good this year, but the lack of improvement is huge red flag.

+1000 DG has to own it.

What you see on the field right now is a Dave Gettleman built team. He has been churning the roster for two years and the talent level is really no different. This is still a team that can’t move the ball consistently and can’t stop anyone.

It is too early to evaluate Gettleman’s drafts, so you need to look at the other moves - who did he let go and who did he bring in to replace them? None of these linebackers are Reese guys. These safeties aren’t Reese guys.

For a guy who loves building from the lines out, this remade offensive line is not much to write home about.

In comment 14640250 George from PA said:

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Cap cleared....DG's 3rd draft. And I am not one who thinks Reese is all bad.....but never fixing OL was a killer to the team and devastating to Eli's legacy

Uh, this O-line still isn't fixed and it is all DG except Halapio.

For some advice.

He actually spent a fair bit in free agency 2018. Biggest being solder and obj but all the middle level contracts add up.

And he didn’t have to pay Eli 40+ mil over the past two years.

In comment 14640280 Britt in VA said:

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Gettleman, on the other hand, walked into a roster with no core, no offense or defensive lines, which had been driven into the ground for nearly 10 years of horrible, horrible drafting. At the end of the day, this team is where it is because of nearly a decade of poor roster building, and the inability to replace a core that completely crumbled to dust in 2011.

This gets posted quite frequently -- and I genuinely don't understand the logic. How are decisions Reese made 10 years ago hurting Gettleman now?

The chance of a player being on a roster 10 years later is virtually impossible. The chance of a player being on a roster 5 years later is quite slim.

To say the Giants had no defensive line is pretty funny. JPP, Harrison, Tomlinson, and Vernon was certainly a line. You can argue overpaid and unlikeable. But nothing? That's hyperbole.

The Giants had a core. It won 11 games the year before he came on -- he didn't like that core and he got rid of all of it.

Totally his choice, and probably the right choice.

But look at what he's invested by way of resources in the starting group this year. Should the team be this bad?

The offensive line. It stinks - it's probably marginally better than the unit he found when he got here.

Despite having a RB of a much higher caliber, the line still can't open blocks for him. Despite having a much more mobile QB at the helm, he's still getting pressured and knocked down all the time.

This should be alarming on many levels - partly because of the resources allocated, partly because of the importance to the overall strategy (which was to establish a sound running game as a safety blanket for a new QB), and most concerning - because this was supposed to be what Gettleman was BEST at.

In comment 14640324 jcn56 said:

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The offensive line. It stinks - it's probably marginally better than the unit he found when he got here. Despite having a RB of a much higher caliber, the line still can't open blocks for him. Despite having a much more mobile QB at the helm, he's still getting pressured and knocked down all the time. This should be alarming on many levels - partly because of the resources allocated, partly because of the importance to the overall strategy (which was to establish a sound running game as a safety blanket for a new QB), and most concerning - because this was supposed to be what Gettleman was BEST at.

ONE high draft pick in two years to rebuild an O-line is ineptness defined.

In shurm they found a more experienced and proven coach within basically the same play style that macadoo used.

And that spans two GMs.

System coaches who believe in pass as run and who don't use as much run action in passing nor invest much in outside edge running.

Not generalists, and not much HC experience .

it's not either reese's fault entirely or not his fault at all.

In comment 14640324 jcn56 said:

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The offensive line. It stinks - it's probably marginally better than the unit he found when he got here. Despite having a RB of a much higher caliber, the line still can't open blocks for him. Despite having a much more mobile QB at the helm, he's still getting pressured and knocked down all the time. This should be alarming on many levels - partly because of the resources allocated, partly because of the importance to the overall strategy (which was to establish a sound running game as a safety blanket for a new QB), and most concerning - because this was supposed to be what Gettleman was BEST at.

The line isn't that bad. Number one, Barkley has only played in 3 games. Number 2, Jones is holding onto the ball WAY too long. Which is fine, because he's a rookie. But we are not nearly seeing the jail breaks on the offensive line that we saw a year or two ago. It's also a work in progress. One calendar year ago we had an almost entirely different line.

posters on this thread arguing Reese's impact is minimal now are some of the same people who have said Gettleman was along for the ride in Carolina.

So it seems to be less a question about reese and more a continued problem regarding Gettleman.

I continue to just shake my head at the daily ways to crap on the guy.

with a couple of Super Bowls from a group of players he inherited. DG is a lousy GM who reached the Super Bowl once and then was fired by the team. Reese made a poor hire to replace Coughlin. Gettleman has made a poor hire to replace McAdoo. Reese never talked to the media, Gettleman talked too much. To his credit, Gettleman has made some good draft picks with his high round draft choices (jury very much still out on Jones and Baker. Yet DG has been a complete disaster in free agency.

Based upon the evidence so far each of these guys has a low ceiling and neither has proven worthy of running this franchise. Unfortunately, because of the misplaced loyalty and "patience" of the ownership bad hires are never corrected soon, with the possible exception of the guy who benched Eli. In the end it is not Reese's team and not DG's team--it's Mara's team and that is where to start pointing the finger at the current state of affairs.

a team that came in with one of the bottom ranked defenses?

I don't think we saw the same game. If I'm not mistaken Barkley played in that one as well. I have to ask since someone apparently saw a functional OL that I missed in the same game.

2019 is the last year Giants fans (and Gettleman for that matter) can blame on the Reese era. After this year, the team will reflect Gettleman's vision. Going into the 2020 season, the roster will have 3 years worth of Gettleman draft picks and salary cap freedom from having purged the roster. Thus, it will all be on him.

of Evan Engram.

In comment 14640313 christian said:

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In comment 14640280 Britt in VA said: Quote: Gettleman, on the other hand, walked into a roster with no core, no offense or defensive lines, which had been driven into the ground for nearly 10 years of horrible, horrible drafting. At the end of the day, this team is where it is because of nearly a decade of poor roster building, and the inability to replace a core that completely crumbled to dust in 2011. This gets posted quite frequently -- and I genuinely don't understand the logic. How are decisions Reese made 10 years ago hurting Gettleman now? The chance of a player being on a roster 10 years later is virtually impossible. The chance of a player being on a roster 5 years later is quite slim. To say the Giants had no defensive line is pretty funny. JPP, Harrison, Tomlinson, and Vernon was certainly a line. You can argue overpaid and unlikeable. But nothing? That's hyperbole. The Giants had a core. It won 11 games the year before he came on -- he didn't like that core and he got rid of all of it. Totally his choice, and probably the right choice. But look at what he's invested by way of resources in the starting group this year. Should the team be this bad?

You don't understand the logic, or you refuse to acknowledge it?

Let's say the league created an expansion team, and you were in charge of it. Do you think you'd be able to field an entire, competitive, 53 man roster in your first season with the resources available? Or do you think it would take time to build it up? Some trial an error? Putting a roster out there, evaluating it, and tweaking it? Rinse repeat?

This poster is most dead on, IMO, on what happened. In the age of parity, the NFL is designed for teams to go from worst to first. Dave Gettleman came in and tried:

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It is DG's team Lines of Scrimmage : 6:17 am : link : reply and I believe there are a few things to consider that I believe to be true. 1. Eli Manning was going to finish his contract and this was a Mara/Tisch mandate. Under this premise, DG tried to stabilize the line and added a "generational" RB to facilitate this. Solder while expensive had been at least a solid LT and there was not one else available. I also think part of signing him was that there was no leadership in the OL room. The same logic applied to Ogletree. 2. Last year, DG went into the season expecting to compete and that to me is playing meaningful games in December. I think he realized how poor the team was early on and why he sold assets and acquired picks. I think this message was presented and accepted by ownership.

So he cut his losses and went full on tear down, which is what many of you advocated for any way.

I just don't understand why Gettleman is taking on so much shit, and has been since Day 1. And let's be honest, the same people giving him the most shit now were giving him the most shit before he even made a move to begin with.

Who are the other GMs that pulled off full on rebuilds in one offseason? For all the love Cleveland got for John Dorsey, who many on BBI wanted desperately over DG, does he get a pass? Or should they be seeing results already too?

It’s becoming clear it’s ownership’s fault.

Yes, Jones is holding the ball way too long and that will hopefully improve over time. The last sack was DJ simply not diagnosing the blitz. But this line on its best day is average.

We have the highest paid LT in the league and his play is nowhere close to that. Halapio is inconsistent and Remmers is not providing much of anything. Hernandez is still young and improving, but he is not turning into the dominating force many believed he would. So far Zeitler has been steady, but he is playing between two guys who are often below average.

For better or worse this is a Gettleman roster now. Reese deserved most of the crap he took, but it is important to remember that Gettleman also kept much of Reese's infrastructure so it's hard to argue that he was completely incompetent since the new guy changed very little.

In comment 14640313 christian said:

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In comment 14640280 Britt in VA said: Quote: Gettleman, on the other hand, walked into a roster with no core, no offense or defensive lines, which had been driven into the ground for nearly 10 years of horrible, horrible drafting. At the end of the day, this team is where it is because of nearly a decade of poor roster building, and the inability to replace a core that completely crumbled to dust in 2011. This gets posted quite frequently -- and I genuinely don't understand the logic. How are decisions Reese made 10 years ago hurting Gettleman now? The chance of a player being on a roster 10 years later is virtually impossible. The chance of a player being on a roster 5 years later is quite slim. To say the Giants had no defensive line is pretty funny. JPP, Harrison, Tomlinson, and Vernon was certainly a line. You can argue overpaid and unlikeable. But nothing? That's hyperbole. The Giants had a core. It won 11 games the year before he came on -- he didn't like that core and he got rid of all of it. Totally his choice, and probably the right choice. But look at what he's invested by way of resources in the starting group this year. Should the team be this bad?

Ten years was probably an exaggeration but the point remains that for a long time the drafting stunk and there were also some career ending injuries to very good/great players.

You speak of the corps the Giants had and mention JPP, Vern, Harrison and others. The question I would ask you is do you think DG felt these players and others on the team when he took over could be part of a championship team? I don't but he gave it a go year 1 with Manning.

I don't know how things will work out for DG. I do believe he knows what a champion team looks like. Maybe he just cut bait with many knowing that a new and younger corps needed to be established for the next great team.

if you recall - they're not that far removed from being a playoff team. Giants have looked really bad last few games in large part due to some dumb mistakes.

This is Gettleman's team. Last half of last season saw improvement. Getting off to a slow start this year. Most promising LB out for the season. And they have to compensate for absence of OBJ. Teams don't have to game plan for him. Just Stop the run, cover average receiving corps and confuse the rookie QB.

You asked for a rebuild - you got it.

10-6, 11-5, & 13-3. They have Chandler Jones, Terrell Suggs, & Peterson. and some other decent players. Sundays game still stings but the hole they're digging out of is shallower than the one Giants are digging out of

start to play better in the 2nd half of the season and the arrow is pointing up again. Right now the arrow is neutral at best and in some cases we've seen regression. I think it's critical that we see improvement from the young defensive players (please for the love of God trade Jenkins and sit Bethea, play Bellentine, Beal and Love the rest of the year and let them learn on the field). Obviously we need to see Jones learn from all these mistakes of late and not make the same ones in November and December.

The reason why this is important is that Gettleman and Shurmur are not dumb. Everyone knows the Giants have lots of cap room in 2020 and draft picks. I feel like we are back to Jim Fassel ball where you get right up to the last moment where you think you are going to fire him and he pulls a playoff run out of his ass. Job preservation is a strong motivator and can cause some short sighted decisions. I can easily see Shurmur fire Bettcher to give the fans/owners a pound of flesh at the end of the year. And from there the Giants might go on a free agency spree to goose their way to a 10 win season and get to the playoffs, but they will get guys who we will be begging to cut in 2 years time. I want them to build a team that has an extended window of success (5-7 years) not one where they will settle in at 7-9 or 8-8 and then surprise with a 10-6 when the heat is on, but get bounced in the playoffs. Like I said, we saw this movie before with Fassel.

After two excellent drafts we still have a long ways to go. The FA acquisitions have been less successful but that’s with very limited cap room. The trades have been ok mostly because of the OBJ trade where seems like we got good value and the use of the draft choices we got for some of other players. That’s how deep the hole is we’re digging ourselves out of.

No one else back there has proven anything and may not prove anything. Get a pass rush and they'll all look better.

Just can't keep trading away your better players and expect to play better football. That is not logical.

some time to fully rebuild the team -character wise and talent wise. I love what hes doing. let him do what needs to be done. stop worrying about it. IT takes time to rebuild. Still many massing pieces. but I like this team. they fought hrd against the best team in the league without their best. Too many naysayers who know better.. Look a lot of the players many would have drafted may not have helped rebuild the character of the team or the maturity Darnold is a good young QB but very immature -hes lucky hes on the jets. He needs a lot of room to grow. The biggest piece missing is the D. Once that is rebuilt and I like a few of the new parts btw its all good. Chill the f out. or don't. Reese destroyed the core of the team it was paper thin with mercenaries.. they laughed when Eli got benched by McDoo. Remember that.

This is DG & Shurmur's team - they have to be graded on it now. If DJ8 kept on his win streak from the first 2 games, they certainly would be taking credit for it.

I was a big Coughlin & Eli fan, and frankly I have to give Reese credit for the 2 superbowls as well. Results matter end of the day.

I still feel that his dumb focus on keeping smug Marc Ross employed was his real undoing. Despite investment in OL his team never hit on a good prospect.

how long did Reese get after 2013 to fix it?

That's a good measurement for what DG should get. So let's say another year or so.

need to be graded immediately is what gets these discussions going in the first place.

They most definitely do not need a grade right now, but once people are frustrated (or euphoric), they want immediacy. There is no patience anymore.

Hell, just a couple weeks ago, we had threads talking about how the Niners have quickly turned things around, even though they've been shitty for the past several years. I guess that got people off the talking points that the Jaguars were going to be perennial contenders.

It is increasingly tough to discern between what are good moves and what are bad moves because you have a lot of reactionary assholes screaming daily on BBI about not having plans, about an out of touch GM and about a terrible roster. They aren't really looking to be patient - they just want to vent.

And make it sound like they have the answers.

So how can anyone complain?

Or, having the goal of an ideal style of play, one that has rarely materialised.

Both macadoo and Shurmer: being very reluctant to implement in practice, invest in roster and call on game day certain types of running and integrate that into passing

Again, that spans two gms.

You know ownership is in on coach hires. No gm does coach hires without ownership blessing or even guiding.

And all that system stuff, impacting on line play and qb success especially.

So.

In comment 14640280 Britt in VA said:

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In comment 14640242 Big Blue Blogger said: Quote: If the 2018 Giants had won the Super Bowl, would Jerry Reese have deserved credit? If the 2019 Giants were 7-0, would we be praising Jerry Reese for setting the stage for long-term success? Jeez, it’s Gettleman’s team, for better or worse. He is what his record says he is. Did Ernie Accorsi get credit in 2007? He did. I believe Ernie Accorsi also deserved some credit in 2011, because those two lines, offense and defense, were built under his watch. Jerry Reese added a lot of excellent supplemental pieces to a very nice core which all contributed. Jerry Reese inherited a very strong roster. Gettleman, on the other hand, walked into a roster with no core, no offense or defensive lines, which had been driven into the ground for nearly 10 years of horrible, horrible drafting. At the end of the day, this team is where it is because of nearly a decade of poor roster building, and the inability to replace a core that completely crumbled to dust in 2011. I think Gettleman deserves longer than 20 months to undo all of that.

This.

Serious question - I have no idea what the answer is. Was he a candidate for anyone else?

Quote:

I just don't understand why Gettleman is taking on so much shit, and has been since Day 1. And let's be honest, the same people giving him the most shit now were giving him the most shit before he even made a move to begin with. Who are the other GMs that pulled off full on rebuilds in one offseason? For all the love Cleveland got for John Dorsey, who many on BBI wanted desperately over DG, does he get a pass? Or should they be seeing results already too?

It’s not hard to understand why. Gettleman digs his own grave every time he speaks. We don’t sign someone to trade them. Trades OBJ. I fell in love with him at the Senior Bowl. Let’s go get the hogmollies and we still have a brutal offensive line. You can compete in the NFL through FA and the draft. We have sucked for 2 years Eli isn’t done I watched the tape. Gets a new QB a year later.

He’s nearly 70, so he really doesn’t give a fuck, but if he just shut up and did his job, I think the light might shine a little differently.

think it's Gettleman's team right now. He's jettisoned all of Reese's big players, except for Jenkins, Engram, Tomlinson, and Gallman. JPP, Vernon, Snacks, Pugh, Richburg, Apple, OBJ, and Collins are all gone.

My problem is that DG was supposed to be what Reese was not, namely someone who could identify OL talent. But he's failed, aside from Hernandez and Zeitler. Solder, Omameh, Halapio, Pulley, and Remmers were bad signings. And since Slade, Gates, and Smith can't beat them out, it means that we also have no depth.

This becomes more obvious every week and is unforgivable. As far as the rest of it he makes one bad move for every good one.

was the GM of the Giants and they won 2 Super Bowls. Trust Dave Gettleman is never going to win a Super Bowl as the Giants GM.

To answer the OPs question absolutely nothing happening with the Giants right now has anything to do with Jerry Reese. It is all 100% on Gettleman.

Next summer Gettleman will have money, and a third draft.

Definitely by 20-21, since at that point if coaching is the issue, its his job to resolve it.

In comment 14640559 arniefez said:

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was the GM of the Giants and they won 2 Super Bowls. Trust Dave Gettleman is never going to win a Super Bowl as the Giants GM. To answer the OPs question absolutely nothing happening with the Giants right now has anything to do with Jerry Reese. It is all 100% on Gettleman.

We won the second super bowl because of Eli, not because of Reese. He was already starting to fuck up drafts before that second super bowl.

He gets full credit for the first one. 100%.

ie: the offensive line.

The 2008 NYG Offensive line was the absolute best line of the modern era for the Giants.

Here is how that line was built:

Well let's look at that offensive line, shall we?

Dave Diehl LT: 5th round pick 2003
Rich Seubert: LG Undrafted FA 2001
Shaun O'hara: C Undrafted FA 2000 traded to Giants in 2004
Chris Snee: RG 2nd round pick 2004
Kareem McKenzie: RT 3rd round pick 2001, signed as FA by Giants in 2005.

So that line was built in varying degrees by drafting, trading, and signing FA's over the course of five years, then an additional three-four years of playing together to become the line it did in 2008.

Why is Dave Gettleman supposed to do all of that in one offseason?

Pugh looked like he had no problem handling Dexter Lawrence on Sunday, and Richberg is the starting Center on an undefeated team. Those guys were good picks, didn't work out with the Giants, but they have talent and are starting caliber OL - that's proven. Even guys like Hart and Flowers are starters, not back ups, on other teams. I think it's hard to find good OL these days. It was supposed to be DG's strength. He spend a ton on a LT, used a very high second round pick on a LG, traded for a highly paid RG. He also proclaimed in January that the offense played well in the second half of last year after he "fixed" the OL. Yet here we are in October and the line does not appear to be fixed. That seemed pretty apparent during the first half of the third pre-season game against the Bengals.

I still think the coaching is bad, and that's the biggest issue right now, and has been since about 2014. Getting a good HC, and a good OL coach would go a long way to be in the mix for the division. That and 2 good pass rushers. If I had to pick between OL and good past rushers, give me the pass rushers first. In the end, you still win with Defense.

Gettleman jettisoned him for Jon Halapio. Fuckin' ingenious.....it's a Swiss fuckin' watch if I'm understanding it correctly.

without Nicks, Cruz, MM, JPP, Bradshaw, etc. Giving Eli full credit for that , and Reese none is just idiotic!

we need to conveniently forget that people said re-signing Richburg would be a terrible move at the contract he wanted, but we reserve the right to keep bitching about letting him go anyway.....

That's the way miserable anger works, I'm guessing

went from promising rookie to pariah pretty quick.

was he playing poorly towards the end of his contract or was he just brought down by the sinking tide.

Replacing him with Halapio? That's a disgrace.

In comment 14640471 Britt in VA said:

Quote:

how long did Reese get after 2013 to fix it? That's a good measurement for what DG should get. So let's say another year or so.

So you're of the opinion that Reese shouldn't have gone along with TC?

In comment 14640637 Britt in VA said:

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ie: the offensive line. The 2008 NYG Offensive line was the absolute best line of the modern era for the Giants. Here is how that line was built: Well let's look at that offensive line, shall we? Dave Diehl LT: 5th round pick 2003 Rich Seubert: LG Undrafted FA 2001 Shaun O'hara: C Undrafted FA 2000 traded to Giants in 2004 Chris Snee: RG 2nd round pick 2004 Kareem McKenzie: RT 3rd round pick 2001, signed as FA by Giants in 2005. So that line was built in varying degrees by drafting, trading, and signing FA's over the course of five years, then an additional three-four years of playing together to become the line it did in 2008. Why is Dave Gettleman supposed to do all of that in one offseason?

so a better line was constructed by expending fewer resources...and this somehow absolves Gettleman? Only on BBI...

Is going to get 5 years at minimum, that is fair in assesing how good a GM is performing, a head coach is 3 years, unless they are horrible and lose the team. That is why when people Reese credit for the first Super Bowl it was pathetic, it was 90% EA at minimum, probably closer to 95%. Right now Gettleman is not looking good at all because he hired Shurmur, added Ogletree and Solder as core pieces, and they have sucked. The drafts can not fairly be evaluated yet. His free agent pick ups, which is for immediate help have been putrid, add in Reeses drafts and we suck.

But he still gets a couple more years. You can't gut a team completely and rebuild in a two years without some luck.

AND SOME COACHING.

That's why if the team doesn't look like it's progressing the right way after December, Shurmur is getting fired.

And, he's getting fired I think.............

That's because the cupboard was so bare that the whole team has to be re-built from the ground up, and contrary to popular opinion, that CANNOT be done in one or two seasons.

Despite the veteran free agent failures, Gettleman has a good start on re-building with players like Jones, Barkley, Hernandez, Zeitler, Hill, Lawrence, Golden, and Peppers along with a couple of hold-overs.

In comment 14640382 Britt in VA said:

Quote:

You don't understand the logic, or you refuse to acknowledge it?

That doesn't answer anything I posted. Quite simply:

1) What bearing do you think bad draft choices 10 years ago have on the team today? Do you real feel that's relevant?

2) When you said there was no defensive line, do you mean to say Vernon, Snacks, Tomlinson, JPP weren't passable?

3) When you say there was no core, do you mean to say OBJ, Manning, Engram, Shepard, Collins, Jenkins, Vernon, Snacks, Kennard, Tomlinson, JPP, Apple, Jones, Jerry, Okwara, all guys still employed in the NFL weren't are core?

Most importantly, you seem to think I'm implying Gettleman should be done or indicted. I know a lot of folks feel that way. I don't.

I think it's a really young team and gets an incomplete.

I also think it's ridiculous to be blaming Reese for a team Gettleman went to incredible lengths to rebuild in his vision.

as I noted, he really didn't work out here. However, saying guys like him and Pugh aren't, at a minimun, decent OL players is false. The reasons they didn't work out here really aren't on the GM, IMO, because the talent is there.

The other thing about DG is that he said he was gonna kick ass, and that you could win while re-building. The only ass I see getting kicked is the Giants, and on a weekly basis. He also claimed that the line was fixed in the second half of last year. The results on the field speak otherwise. The only ass kicking going on is the being administered by the opposing teams.

I'm ok giving DG a couple more years, but only if he replaces Shurmur with a decent HC after this season.

In comment 14640826 christian said:

Quote:

In comment 14640382 Britt in VA said: Quote: You don't understand the logic, or you refuse to acknowledge it? That doesn't answer anything I posted. Quite simply: 1) What bearing do you think bad draft choices 10 years ago have on the team today? Do you real feel that's relevant? 2) When you said there was no defensive line, do you mean to say Vernon, Snacks, Tomlinson, JPP weren't passable? 3) When you say there was no core, do you mean to say OBJ, Manning, Engram, Shepard, Collins, Jenkins, Vernon, Snacks, Kennard, Tomlinson, JPP, Apple, Jones, Jerry, Okwara, all guys still employed in the NFL weren't are core? Most importantly, you seem to think I'm implying Gettleman should be done or indicted. I know a lot of folks feel that way. I don't. I think it's a really young team and gets an incomplete. I also think it's ridiculous to be blaming Reese for a team Gettleman went to incredible lengths to rebuild in his vision.

I did answer it. Having to rebuild an entire 53 man roster with finite resources over the course of one offseason is a tough task. Why the previous ten years matter is because of what you're starting point is. Compare the team Reese took over from Accorsi to the one Gettleman took over from Reese. Reese didn't have to touch the offensive or defensive line until much later. Much later.

In regards to the core you are saying was present, they were all underperforming and were losing. You yourself said it was probably the right call to ship them out and start over. Gettleman gave that defense a chance before shipping them out, then said to hell with it, I've seen enough and started the full rebuild 8 games into season one. So no, I don't think he inherited a core similar to what Reese inherited when he took over in 2007. Those dudes were already winning games, entering their prime in many cases.

The "core" you are referring to not only were not living up to their contracts, they were pains in the ass to deal with, malcontents by most accounts to boot.

For all the people saying Gettleman miscalculated and we started the rebuild late, well you approximately lost about 8 games before that happened. At least he had the balls to cut his losses and change course unlike Reese who kept trotting Flowers out there at LT year after year.

2018 didn't count?

already that it's a failure.

the state of the team upon your arrival... and spend the first off-season trying to get pieces to win now... then that year doesn't count towards the rebuild you should be doing.
so yes this is now year 1 apparently

In comment 14640862 hitdog42 said:

Quote:

the state of the team upon your arrival... and spend the first off-season trying to get pieces to win now... then that year doesn't count towards the rebuild you should be doing. so yes this is now year 1 apparently

Or he started by trying to win now and rebuild concurrently, then realized upon taking the wrapper off that the job was much bigger than he thought (to make an analogy, the plumber comes in to fix a leaky tub but doesn't realize until he actually gets in there and into the actual shit that the entire system of pipes needs to be replaced).

We can agree to disagree about the 10 year period, I think a 4-5 year period prior is about as much as you can expect to materially impact a team. If the argument is Reese did a bad job the 5 years leading up to his departure I'd buy that is logical.

So given how lousy the core that was left, would you agree Gettleman did well to turn JPP, Apple, Snacks, Vernon, and OBJ into: two 3rds, a 4th, 5th, 1st, Peppers, Zeitler?

In his short time as time as GM isn't it quite remarkable he's had:

4 1st round picks
1 2nd round pick
3 3rd round picks
8 players picked in the top 100 over two years?

Doesn't that indicate, in addition to the other trades he made for high salary players and considerable UFA money spent, this is really his team?

In comment 14640363 FatMan in Charlotte said:

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posters on this thread arguing Reese's impact is minimal now are some of the same people who have said Gettleman was along for the ride in Carolina. So it seems to be less a question about reese and more a continued problem regarding Gettleman. I continue to just shake my head at the daily ways to crap on the guy.

The facts that Reese sucked, that Gettleman has a unique approach to building a team, that this is Gettleman’s team now and that many pieces were in place in Carolina when Gettleman got there are not mutually exclusive,

there were no actual football players here, let's forget that there are still plenty of them earning paychecks on teams that are playing better elsewhere.

Even if that were somehow acceptable - the fact that the guys he got to replace the people he sent packing haven't been any good. The FAs were atrocious, and so far most of the draftees are average at best.

Except for Barkley of course, but if he managed to fuck up the 2nd overall pick then the Giants would really be screwed.

In comment 14640869 christian said:

Quote:

We can agree to disagree about the 10 year period, I think a 4-5 year period prior is about as much as you can expect to materially impact a team. If the argument is Reese did a bad job the 5 years leading up to his departure I'd buy that is logical. So given how lousy the core that was left, would you agree Gettleman did well to turn JPP, Apple, Snacks, Vernon, and OBJ into: two 3rds, a 4th, 5th, 1st, Peppers, Zeitler? In his short time as time as GM isn't it quite remarkable he's had: 4 1st round picks 1 2nd round pick 3 3rd round picks 8 players picked in the top 100 over two years? Doesn't that indicate, in addition to the other trades he made for high salary players and considerable UFA money spent, this is really his team?

Yes, I would agree to that he has a good job turning over those players and I am happy with the players we have in place as a result.

But I would also say that all of those pieces are young, many rookies and players that are under 3 years in the league, and it's going to take time to see what we have with it all. Not to mention the supplementing he's going to have to continue to do.

I think one more draft and some money to work with next offseason will give us a clearer picture of what the sum of all this is, and a much clearer vision of what Gettleman's team looks like.

In comment 14640471 Britt in VA said:

Quote:

how long did Reese get after 2013 to fix it? That's a good measurement for what DG should get. So let's say another year or so.

It’s fair game to say that Gettleman got rid of a lot of players and has spent draft and FA resources to replace those players and in the process created as many holes as he has filled. Nor is it unfair to say that he has exhibited some of the same behaviors that led to his downfall in Carolina.The result is a team that is 2-5 and seems to be going backwards.

You say give him more time. Ok, that’s fair but what has he done so far to instill confidence that he is headed in the right direction?

In comment 14640889 HomerJones45 said:

Quote:

In comment 14640471 Britt in VA said: Quote: how long did Reese get after 2013 to fix it? That's a good measurement for what DG should get. So let's say another year or so. It’s fair game to say that Gettleman got rid of a lot of players and has spent draft and FA resources to replace those players and in the process created as many holes as he has filled. Nor is it unfair to say that he has exhibited some of the same behaviors that led to his downfall in Carolina.The result is a team that is 2-5 and seems to be going backwards. You say give him more time. Ok, that’s fair but what has he done so far to instill confidence that he is headed in the right direction?

Barkley, Jones, Dexter Lawrence, Will Hernandez, and Peppers are a nice start.

But if they pick up Peppers 5th year option this off-season I'll be shocked.

In comment 14640191 Vanzetti said:

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As most rational posters realized all along

really? how so?

In comment 14640520 Greg from LI said:

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Serious question - I have no idea what the answer is. Was he a candidate for anyone else?

Uh, no.

He was the only candidate recommended by Chief Consulting Officer, Ernie Accorsi.

I think one with the raiders?

My POV is the league didn't view the core of the team as poorly as the fans -- they either brought back good returns or signed elsewhere for nice contracts.

If Gettleman thought they were too big of assholes or overpaid, I get that.

What I just fundamentally reject is that Gettleman gets a break now because of Reese.

He's spent high picks or good money on virtually every starter. When a GM spends a high pick or good money on a player they should be good players, right?

That's what Reese was bad at, no?

That might have had something to do with it.

In comment 14640924 christian said:

Quote:

My POV is the league didn't view the core of the team as poorly as the fans -- they either brought back good returns or signed elsewhere for nice contracts. If Gettleman thought they were too big of assholes or overpaid, I get that. What I just fundamentally reject is that Gettleman gets a break now because of Reese. He's spent high picks or good money on virtually every starter. When a GM spends a high pick or good money on a player they should be good players, right? That's what Reese was bad at, no?

He doesn't get a pass but he should get a little time and patience considering the scope of the rebuild.

out of here after the 2006. An 8-8 season when we lost to the Eagles in the playoffs. In fact, they never liked the guy to begin with.

They wanted him gone again after 2009.

Those views would have cost us two incredible seasons if the owners had been as knee jerk as the fans.

As Gettleman likes to say, when you make decisions based off what the fans think, you're sitting with them.

In comment 14640932 Britt in VA said:

Quote:

In comment 14640924 christian said: Quote: My POV is the league didn't view the core of the team as poorly as the fans -- they either brought back good returns or signed elsewhere for nice contracts. If Gettleman thought they were too big of assholes or overpaid, I get that. What I just fundamentally reject is that Gettleman gets a break now because of Reese. He's spent high picks or good money on virtually every starter. When a GM spends a high pick or good money on a player they should be good players, right? That's what Reese was bad at, no? He doesn't get a pass but he should get a little time and patience considering the scope of the rebuild.

Completely agree. I feel like Gettleman should not be judged until end of next season. I think he needs to produce a winning season or lose his job.

Based on what he was able to recoup for the players he didn't want, and the money he's been able to spend -- I don't buy the situation he walked into was the tragedy some make it.

I think it's pretty fair for a GM to get top 100 picks right, former 1st rounders he trades for right, and we'll paid UFAs right.

Most of the team he's constructed is made up of those types of players.

This isn't all Reese's roster, nor is it all Gettleman's. I consider it a roster in transition.

In comment 14640932 Britt in VA said:

Quote:

In comment 14640924 christian said: Quote: My POV is the league didn't view the core of the team as poorly as the fans -- they either brought back good returns or signed elsewhere for nice contracts. If Gettleman thought they were too big of assholes or overpaid, I get that. What I just fundamentally reject is that Gettleman gets a break now because of Reese. He's spent high picks or good money on virtually every starter. When a GM spends a high pick or good money on a player they should be good players, right? That's what Reese was bad at, no? He doesn't get a pass but he should get a little time and patience considering the scope of the rebuild.

So how much time does he get? In a league of parity, where every season we see teams go worst to first, we're at best stuck in neutral and by some measures regressing. A five year rebuild in this league is nonsense. They don't exist, they're just an excuse for failing to put a contending football team on the field. Is the situation Gettelman inherited any worse than what Lynch and Shannahan took over in SF, or what Ballard and Reich took over in Indianpolis minus Luck? The constant excuses are beyond tiresome. Some will be here a year from now making the same ones.

But I've found just about everything about this season incredibly discouraging and leaves me without much confidence in this regime.

Eli will be gone, he'll be on his third draft and have money to add any free agent he can convince to come here. There will be no way to blame the lackluster parts of the roster on Reese any longer.

In comment 14640959 Kyle in NY said:

Quote:

So how much time does he get? In a league of parity, where every season we see teams go worst to first, we're at best stuck in neutral and by some measures regressing. A five year rebuild in this league is nonsense. They don't exist, they're just an excuse for failing to put a contending football team on the field. Is the situation Gettelman inherited any worse than what Lynch and Shannahan took over in SF, or what Ballard and Reich took over in Indianpolis minus Luck? The constant excuses are beyond tiresome. Some will be here a year from now making the same ones.

And, even more so than the excuses is the fact that many of the people now making these excuses were predicting playoff berths the last two years. Remember the "Eli Revenge Tour" we were supposedly going to see last year?

More than a few posters have been wildly wrong about this team over the past two seasons, and when their predictions have proven incorrect, they just shrug and say things like "Well, Reese left them in SUCH a bad state that it was always going to take years to turn it around" and "You guys are so impatient!"

In comment 14640989 Greg from LI said:

Quote:

In comment 14640959 Kyle in NY said: Quote: So how much time does he get? In a league of parity, where every season we see teams go worst to first, we're at best stuck in neutral and by some measures regressing. A five year rebuild in this league is nonsense. They don't exist, they're just an excuse for failing to put a contending football team on the field. Is the situation Gettelman inherited any worse than what Lynch and Shannahan took over in SF, or what Ballard and Reich took over in Indianpolis minus Luck? The constant excuses are beyond tiresome. Some will be here a year from now making the same ones. And, even more so than the excuses is the fact that many of the people now making these excuses were predicting playoff berths the last two years. Remember the "Eli Revenge Tour" we were supposedly going to see last year? More than a few posters have been wildly wrong about this team over the past two seasons, and when their predictions have proven incorrect, they just shrug and say things like "Well, Reese left them in SUCH a bad state that it was always going to take years to turn it around" and "You guys are so impatient!"

yup

1. Shurmur
2. Beckham
3. Eli

Jury is still out on the Barkley pick, but that's not looking good either.

Gettleman should not get the opportunity this offseason to splurge on free agents in a week attempt at competing in 2020.

This story ends with Gettleman and Shurmur being fired. The only thing that's up in the air is will it be January 2020 or 2021?

In comment 14641044 Go Terps said:

Quote:

1. Shurmur 2. Beckham 3. Eli Jury is still out on the Barkley pick, but that's not looking good either. Gettleman should not get the opportunity this offseason to splurge on free agents in a week attempt at competing in 2020. This story ends with Gettleman and Shurmur being fired. The only thing that's up in the air is will it be January 2020 or 2021?

lol Beckham? Brilliant move.

Some of the people telling us DG couldn't turn it around in an off-season or two were also telling us we'd be making the playoffs last year and this year.

I think DG misjudged the roster last year and thought we could make a run. That's a huge fuck up. We all saw the team in 2017 - how the hell did he need a few games to figure out they sucked?

He does need time to be judged on his drafts. I think it's way too soon to assert they're great, but they've been promising.

But look at his FA signings - guys who we can judge now. He's floundered on the line, and those are all his guys. And he's invested significant resources there. Hernandez, Solder, and Zeitler are serious investments.

I do think he realized this year was going to be a waste. I'm fine giving him another year, but he deserves a ton of shit for the missed FA signings.

Signing him to a contract a year before trading him was a fireable offense.

In comment 14641044 Go Terps said:

Quote:

1. Shurmur 2. Beckham 3. Eli Jury is still out on the Barkley pick, but that's not looking good either. Gettleman should not get the opportunity this offseason to splurge on free agents in a week attempt at competing in 2020. This story ends with Gettleman and Shurmur being fired. The only thing that's up in the air is will it be January 2020 or 2021?

Terps, I can see it now.

Giants attempt to splurge in FA on defense in a quick-fix attempt to save jobs next year circa 2016. They go 9-7 and sneak in to the playoffs and then the organization can say that they are a "few tweaks away" from being a real contender, thus justifying everyone returning in 2021 when the bill comes due and those signed players regress.

as a rookie he almost won rushing title, this year he got injured - yeah not looking good. do some of you guys read what what you post?

In comment 14640303 gmenatlarge said:

Quote:

In comment 14640250 George from PA said: Quote: Cap cleared....DG's 3rd draft. And I am not one who thinks Reese is all bad.....but never fixing OL was a killer to the team and devastating to Eli's legacy Uh, this O-line still isn't fixed and it is all DG except Halapio.

Two years in and with as much roster turnover as there has been, any guys Gettleman has intentionally kept (such as with Halapio being kept and Jones traded away) can also be considered Gettleman guys now even if Reese was the GM of record when they originally joined the team. It's not like he's been handcuffed to Halapio for any particular reason other than him making the conscious decision to keep him.

The whole thing is Gettleman's now, for better or worse.

In comment 14640866 Britt in VA said:

Quote:

In comment 14640862 hitdog42 said: Quote: the state of the team upon your arrival... and spend the first off-season trying to get pieces to win now... then that year doesn't count towards the rebuild you should be doing. so yes this is now year 1 apparently Or he started by trying to win now and rebuild concurrently, then realized upon taking the wrapper off that the job was much bigger than he thought (to make an analogy, the plumber comes in to fix a leaky tub but doesn't realize until he actually gets in there and into the actual shit that the entire system of pipes needs to be replaced).

If you called the plumber initially because you suspected that the whole pipe system was f*cked and he turned around and told you that you only needed to fix the tub, are you still giving the plumber a pass when he eventually concedes that the pipes were indeed f*cked in the first place? Or are you questioning how good of a plumber he actually is that he couldn't see the problem from the start?

IMO, Gettleman shouldn't get a pass for his original assessment of this team. It's his job to accurately assess the roster and act accordingly. He pissed away year one with his incorrect judgment of the team.

In comment 14641552 bc4life said:

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as a rookie he almost won rushing title, this year he got injured - yeah not looking good. do some of you guys read what what you post?

Barkley sits right on the vanguard of player value analysis in the NFL. The conventional wisdom is a guy who gains a bunch of yards must be a good value.

What many are starting to question is whether those yards can be replaced by 1) a more efficient position e.g. WR 2) is the replacement value player cheaper in draft resources 2) is the replacement value player cheaper is cash resources.

This type of analysis shouldn't offend sensibilities. Resistance to value analysis is what set many MLB teams back a decade.

There is an outcome that says even the very best RB isn't as valuable or efficient as a good WR, lineman, or even TE.

The assumption the Barkley is an unequivocal great pick is pretty naive.

In comment 14640937 Britt in VA said:

Quote:

As Gettleman likes to say, when you make decisions based off what the fans think, you're sitting with them.

Good thing this organization has never been hypersensitive to what the fans think and has never ever made any decisions to placate them.

Wanna rattle off any other Gettleman platitudes that have already basically proven to be bullshit during his tenure?

We've got a rookie starting at QB, a rookie starting on the DL, a rookie starting at CB.

I'm frustrated by the losing, but willing to wait it out and see before I lynch Gettleman (although Shurmur is fair game).

While I would like to see us compete for a playoff spot in 2020, I mostly want to see improvement. 7 or 8 at the minimum. But if we're not competing for the playoffs in 2021, then it's fair to say that Gettlemen's plan has failed.

keep playing madden - thinking you are going to trade away very good, potentially great players and produce a better product.

In comment 14642064 bc4life said:

Quote:

keep playing madden - thinking you are going to trade away very good, potentially great players and produce a better product.

Christian wasn't suggesting you trade Barkley - but he does make a good point that even if Barkley turns out to be a very good to great player doesn't automatically make him a great pick.

It boils down to - if you could have taken another RB that gets you 75% of the production of Barkley elsewhere, and used the #2 overall to either trade down for multiple players or select another blue chip there (say, Quintin Nelson) - are you better off?

Right now it's hard to argue definitively in either case. The team stinks with Barkley - it stunk last year, and he's injured now but before he was hurt they were still not very good offensively. To insist that he was a great pick because of production - that might turn out to be the case, but in no way is it true right now.

are better than us because they have more talented players. The key is improve the supporting cast around our very good players. Have to keep working on that OLine. and Christian was responding to my comment that SB was not "trending poorly"

In comment 14642064 bc4life said:

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keep playing madden - thinking you are going to trade away very good, potentially great players and produce a better product.

Not what I was saying but even so --there are plenty of outcomes where moving one resource for multiple resources ends up better. That's not controversial.

Gettleman employed that exact approach with Beckham.

One very basic alternative outcome from the 2018 draft that requires no leap of faith; the Giants select Quenton Nelson, Braden Smith, and Royce Freeman.

Behind an offensive line of Solder, Nelson, Halapio, Zeitler, Smith -- chances of the Giants matching 17th in the league in rushing?

The notion Barkley's yards are irreplaceable is very dubious.

Just think that in this case makes better sense to build around the few good parts we do have. Just my opinion

from the head. At some point, it is time to start pointing fingers at the ownership. This is a long stretch of ineptitude with no end in sight.

In comment 14642352 Rick5 said:

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from the head. At some point, it is time to start pointing fingers at the ownership. This is a long stretch of ineptitude with no end in sight.

That point came and went - and if ownership has a clue, part of this process would be understanding that they're largely to blame.

The changes really can't be considered wholesale if only Reese is replaced and most of the front office is retained. It's obvious that Mara's brother, Chris, who has been the team's senior vice president of player personnel since 2011, will remain in the front office.

But John Mara said that his brother is not in the running to replace Reese.

"He does not want to be a candidate, I don't think, for the full-time position," John Mara said during an interview with Mike Francesa on WFAN. "His input is certainly going to be something that is very crucial to the final decision."


Full time position? WTF is he doing now?
Link - ( New Window )

"The Giants are a family-run organization and even though Dave Gettleman is the GM in title, John Mara’s brother Chris is also involved in the personnel decisions and carries a Vice President title.


Chris’ background has always been in scouting, working from the bottom of the organization to the top. He has paid his dues and worked hard to become a Vice President, however, because he is also a part owner, his voice has supreme clout. Some might view the Giants as having three GMs: the Mara brothers and Gettleman. And when an NFL team has a committee running their future, they have zero chance to win.

If the Giants were smart, they would hire an outside consulting firm to analyze their organization and either get confirmation that their business model can still work, or be told that they need to revamp. And what has to scare Giants fans the most is that they have not yet reached rock bottom."
Link - ( New Window )

It's fantasy to think there are owners who don't involve themselves in football decisions and it's also fantasy that Mara, whose a career franchise owner, isn't a little closer to it than other breeds of owners (specifically owners who buy teams as an investments or for fun).

I suspect in a vacuum Gettleman handles things a little differently with the scouting staff, the player personnel choices, and maybe even the coaching.

But he's not in a vacuum, he's general managing Mara's business and Mara has flaws.

Mara has his family embedded in the scouting function, he gets sentimental about players, he's got the mistakes his father made haunting him.

It's a tough gig. I respect the work Gettleman has done despite what I perceive to be outside factors.

But I don't excuse his mistakes as some albatross from the ghost of Jerry Reese.

He wasn't handed and didn't employ rag tag resources to construct this team. It's made up of primarily high picks he chose, traded for, or inherited.

completely hands off. It's a billion dollar investment - you wouldn't expect them to just go fuck off to the golf course and let someone else worry about it.

At the same time - there's a difference between being involved and controlling the decisions. Having one of the owners in the role of VP responsible for pro personnel, who considers himself a qualified candidate for the GM spot (even if "not interested in the FT position") is dangerous. It's Daniel Snyder dangerous, albeit with a formal title instead of just a serial meddler.

This is why I was against the Gettleman hire. It was nothing personal for the guy, who I held in high regard for his time as pro personnel director with the Giants during their championship run. It was the comfort level that the rest of the org had that bothered me, and I haven't seen anything to suggest I was wrong.

The scouting department underwent minimal changes. Chris Mara retained his title. Why should anyone expect that the talent acquisition skills of the team would suddenly improve?

I've read here that it was rumored that Ross was lazy and that Reese was disinterested. If that was the case, then most of the personnel decisions would be coming from layers below them. And if that's the case, those layers are still in place today - why wouldn't we expect the same shitty caliber of players?

It seems to me that the FO picked up right where it left off - with the higher picks that had more insight provided by the GM doing better, and the lower round picks being mediocre or worse. FA acquisitions have been equally as bad.

people need to stop trying to blame a single person and realise that’s a lot moving parts working as a whole.