When Does it Stop Being Reese's Fault?

In about 2 more years... reese left the team bare of talent and in cap hell in 2020 we are out of cap hell.. if Dimes develops, we compete in 2020 -2021

You know how the apologists are...they need someone outside the building to blame do they can feel like the team is going in the right direction.

Some of the fans are as lost as the team is.

starting as the Giants do. I think his fingerprints come off when all of his bad contract money does.

Gettleman did something quite unconventional by totally cleaning house. The cap constraints were pretty self inflicted (Beckham contract, Vernon trade, plenty of bad UFAs).

It's pretty unprecedented to re-set like he did.

The team he's put together isn't a bunch of low value players. I wonder how the no. of 1st round picks on the Giants compare to the league average?

In comment 14640163 Paulie Walnuts said:

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In about 2 more years... reese left the team bare of talent and in cap hell in 2020 we are out of cap hell.. if Dimes develops, we compete in 2020 -2021

If Reese left the team in cap hell, how the hell did gettleman get to waste so much money on all these trash signings AND eat the Odell contract? There was no 'cap hell'.

"Reese left the team in cap hell" is Shurmur-level excuse making

With no real identify.

For a guy who keeps talking about trenches and defense he really hasn’t landed any difference makers for either of those.

So mediocre. It’s making fans start to miss the Reese reach picks.

"talent hell".

Now the conventional wisdom seems to be Gettleman has pulled us out if it.

And that begs this simple question - so why doesn't it show up in the standings?

In comment 14640167 smshmth8690 said:

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starting as the Giants do. I think his fingerprints come off when all of his bad contract money does.

What's kind of weird is Gettleman chose to keep Jenkins and Manning, which are really the only "bad" money left from Reese. Given the concerted effort to clear house, in retrospect I'm surprised he kept those two.

Stop touching yourself.

In comment 14640178 bw in dc said:

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"talent hell". Now the conventional wisdom seems to be Gettleman has pulled us out if it. And that begs this simple question - so why doesn't it show up in the standings?

I can get behind the notion there are a lot of 1st and 2nd year guys and it's just a young team. And that next year it will start showing up in the standings.

What I can't get behind is this is somehow a Reese team. The number of high asset players Gettleman has constructed just doesn't support it.

This isn't a roster taped together like last year, with a bunch of fringe NFL types. This is a roster full of valuable players Gettleman has acquired himself.

As most rational posters realized all along

and will never be a GM again. He was a fucking disaster.

That said, there are so few Reese players left after Gettleman's ministrations that you can't blame him.

This is his second year and though it usually takes more time I think anyone would be hard pressed to see any improvement. I think DG has been pretty bad and the proof is on the field.

This is DGs team.
Only 9 players signed or picked by Reese. Probably 6 or fewer left by next year.

THe performance or lack thereof is entirely the responsibility of DG and PS at this point.

While didn't expect the Giants to be good this year, but the lack of improvement is huge red flag.

That said, I’ll give him a pass for pressure from Mars/fans/media to 1) sign Beckham and 2) stick with Eli through the end of his contract. With much increased cap space, 2020 better show massive improvement and this team better at least be challenging for a playoff spot. I would even go so far as to give DG 2 more full seasons (through 2021), but it is up to him to make the correct decision re: Shurmur. I personally don’t like Shurmur as a head coach, but I’m not the paid professional here. This team has to compete in 2020-2021 and the head coach (whoever that is) has a massive impact on that, so DG better get it right and fast. Even if it takes replacing Shurmur as late as 2021 (in the scenario Shurmur gets 2020 and fails miserably), the roster should be strong enough at that point (if DG has made the right moves) to bring in an experienced and talented HC who can have real success in his first year with the team.

Not pressure from Mars lol, that’s sounds like some alien conspiracy theory

If the 2018 Giants had won the Super Bowl, would Jerry Reese have deserved credit? If the 2019 Giants were 7-0, would we be praising Jerry Reese for setting the stage for long-term success?

Jeez, it’s Gettleman’s team, for better or worse. He is what his record says he is.

Ereck Flowers (his athletic testing was one of the lowest first round grades ever)
and
Eli Apple (which this board famously mocked mcginn's anonymous scout that said he had 0 life skills)


he would still be the GM today.

Cap cleared....DG's 3rd draft.

And I am not one who thinks Reese is all bad.....but never fixing OL was a killer to the team and devastating to Eli's legacy

As Gettleman walked into his office on the first day of being the GM, the results are on him. In addition to choosing a full tear down and rebuild as you noted, he picked Shurmur as coach; a major decision that is looking worse by the week.

and I believe there are a few things to consider that I believe to be true.

1. Eli Manning was going to finish his contract and this was a Mara/Tisch mandate. Under this premise, DG tried to stabilize the line and added a "generational" RB to facilitate this. Solder while expensive had been at least a solid LT and there was not one else available. I also think part of signing him was that there was no leadership in the OL room. The same logic applied to Ogletree.

2. Last year, DG went into the season expecting to compete and that to me is playing meaningful games in December. I think he realized how poor the team was early on and why he sold assets and acquired picks. I think this message was presented and accepted by ownership.

So even though it is year two in essence I look at this really as year one but there is a very big problem......coaching.

I think to be fair the team should be judged on next year's performance. I know some are frustrated with the OL but reality is next off-season is the real year to fix it. With another draft and lots of free money they should be able to add some quality players.

The big question is what to do with the coaching staff imo.

Because Jones is a rookie.. if next year is a losing season, then Murmur is gone

In comment 14640242 Big Blue Blogger said:

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If the 2018 Giants had won the Super Bowl, would Jerry Reese have deserved credit? If the 2019 Giants were 7-0, would we be praising Jerry Reese for setting the stage for long-term success? Jeez, it’s Gettleman’s team, for better or worse. He is what his record says he is.

Did Ernie Accorsi get credit in 2007? He did. I believe Ernie Accorsi also deserved some credit in 2011, because those two lines, offense and defense, were built under his watch. Jerry Reese added a lot of excellent supplemental pieces to a very nice core which all contributed. Jerry Reese inherited a very strong roster.

Gettleman, on the other hand, walked into a roster with no core, no offense or defensive lines, which had been driven into the ground for nearly 10 years of horrible, horrible drafting.

At the end of the day, this team is where it is because of nearly a decade of poor roster building, and the inability to replace a core that completely crumbled to dust in 2011.

I think Gettleman deserves longer than 20 months to undo all of that.

Simple answer - coaching. You can bro f in all the talent you want, if the coaching staff can’t develop or utilize that talent you remain a loser. That’s become pretty evident. That’s on Getts he hires this guy.

'Hey, let's get rid of everyone because Reese didn't know what he was doing and the Giants have no talent'

An interesting idea - if not for the fact that the logic it's built on is rickety; the scouting department that Reese lead that picked all those players is STILL INTACT. They're the ones still driving talent acquisition.

And that's without getting into the fact that nobody does a complete teardown of a roster anymore, let alone a team that had been 11-5 two season prior and in the playoffs.

Roster turnover being what it is, a team is going to churn half it's players even if they don't want to every 3 years. Why bother artificially accelerating it, unless you can replace players with better alternatives?

Right now - they subbed in Reese's crap for Gettleman's crap. And at the heart of it all, the group of people responsible for scouting personnel and making major decisions, hiring coaches, evaluating FAs - has not changed. And yet somehow, people are surprised that the team still sucks and suggests the only thing needed is more time.

The Giants are firmly in laughing stock territory, with no signs of them getting out any time soon.

In comment 14640221 .McL. said:

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This is DGs team. Only 9 players signed or picked by Reese. Probably 6 or fewer left by next year. THe performance or lack thereof is entirely the responsibility of DG and PS at this point. While didn't expect the Giants to be good this year, but the lack of improvement is huge red flag.

+1000 DG has to own it.

What you see on the field right now is a Dave Gettleman built team. He has been churning the roster for two years and the talent level is really no different. This is still a team that can’t move the ball consistently and can’t stop anyone.

It is too early to evaluate Gettleman’s drafts, so you need to look at the other moves - who did he let go and who did he bring in to replace them? None of these linebackers are Reese guys. These safeties aren’t Reese guys.

For a guy who loves building from the lines out, this remade offensive line is not much to write home about.

In comment 14640250 George from PA said:

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Cap cleared....DG's 3rd draft. And I am not one who thinks Reese is all bad.....but never fixing OL was a killer to the team and devastating to Eli's legacy

Uh, this O-line still isn't fixed and it is all DG except Halapio.

For some advice.

He actually spent a fair bit in free agency 2018. Biggest being solder and obj but all the middle level contracts add up.

And he didn’t have to pay Eli 40+ mil over the past two years.

In comment 14640280 Britt in VA said:

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Gettleman, on the other hand, walked into a roster with no core, no offense or defensive lines, which had been driven into the ground for nearly 10 years of horrible, horrible drafting. At the end of the day, this team is where it is because of nearly a decade of poor roster building, and the inability to replace a core that completely crumbled to dust in 2011.

This gets posted quite frequently -- and I genuinely don't understand the logic. How are decisions Reese made 10 years ago hurting Gettleman now?

The chance of a player being on a roster 10 years later is virtually impossible. The chance of a player being on a roster 5 years later is quite slim.

To say the Giants had no defensive line is pretty funny. JPP, Harrison, Tomlinson, and Vernon was certainly a line. You can argue overpaid and unlikeable. But nothing? That's hyperbole.

The Giants had a core. It won 11 games the year before he came on -- he didn't like that core and he got rid of all of it.

Totally his choice, and probably the right choice.

But look at what he's invested by way of resources in the starting group this year. Should the team be this bad?

The offensive line. It stinks - it's probably marginally better than the unit he found when he got here.

Despite having a RB of a much higher caliber, the line still can't open blocks for him. Despite having a much more mobile QB at the helm, he's still getting pressured and knocked down all the time.

This should be alarming on many levels - partly because of the resources allocated, partly because of the importance to the overall strategy (which was to establish a sound running game as a safety blanket for a new QB), and most concerning - because this was supposed to be what Gettleman was BEST at.

In comment 14640324 jcn56 said:

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The offensive line. It stinks - it's probably marginally better than the unit he found when he got here. Despite having a RB of a much higher caliber, the line still can't open blocks for him. Despite having a much more mobile QB at the helm, he's still getting pressured and knocked down all the time. This should be alarming on many levels - partly because of the resources allocated, partly because of the importance to the overall strategy (which was to establish a sound running game as a safety blanket for a new QB), and most concerning - because this was supposed to be what Gettleman was BEST at.

ONE high draft pick in two years to rebuild an O-line is ineptness defined.

In shurm they found a more experienced and proven coach within basically the same play style that macadoo used.

And that spans two GMs.

System coaches who believe in pass as run and who don't use as much run action in passing nor invest much in outside edge running.

Not generalists, and not much HC experience .

it's not either reese's fault entirely or not his fault at all.

In comment 14640324 jcn56 said:

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The offensive line. It stinks - it's probably marginally better than the unit he found when he got here. Despite having a RB of a much higher caliber, the line still can't open blocks for him. Despite having a much more mobile QB at the helm, he's still getting pressured and knocked down all the time. This should be alarming on many levels - partly because of the resources allocated, partly because of the importance to the overall strategy (which was to establish a sound running game as a safety blanket for a new QB), and most concerning - because this was supposed to be what Gettleman was BEST at.

The line isn't that bad. Number one, Barkley has only played in 3 games. Number 2, Jones is holding onto the ball WAY too long. Which is fine, because he's a rookie. But we are not nearly seeing the jail breaks on the offensive line that we saw a year or two ago. It's also a work in progress. One calendar year ago we had an almost entirely different line.

posters on this thread arguing Reese's impact is minimal now are some of the same people who have said Gettleman was along for the ride in Carolina.

So it seems to be less a question about reese and more a continued problem regarding Gettleman.

I continue to just shake my head at the daily ways to crap on the guy.

with a couple of Super Bowls from a group of players he inherited. DG is a lousy GM who reached the Super Bowl once and then was fired by the team. Reese made a poor hire to replace Coughlin. Gettleman has made a poor hire to replace McAdoo. Reese never talked to the media, Gettleman talked too much. To his credit, Gettleman has made some good draft picks with his high round draft choices (jury very much still out on Jones and Baker. Yet DG has been a complete disaster in free agency.

Based upon the evidence so far each of these guys has a low ceiling and neither has proven worthy of running this franchise. Unfortunately, because of the misplaced loyalty and "patience" of the ownership bad hires are never corrected soon, with the possible exception of the guy who benched Eli. In the end it is not Reese's team and not DG's team--it's Mara's team and that is where to start pointing the finger at the current state of affairs.

a team that came in with one of the bottom ranked defenses?

I don't think we saw the same game. If I'm not mistaken Barkley played in that one as well. I have to ask since someone apparently saw a functional OL that I missed in the same game.

2019 is the last year Giants fans (and Gettleman for that matter) can blame on the Reese era. After this year, the team will reflect Gettleman's vision. Going into the 2020 season, the roster will have 3 years worth of Gettleman draft picks and salary cap freedom from having purged the roster. Thus, it will all be on him.

of Evan Engram.

In comment 14640313 christian said:

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In comment 14640280 Britt in VA said: Quote: Gettleman, on the other hand, walked into a roster with no core, no offense or defensive lines, which had been driven into the ground for nearly 10 years of horrible, horrible drafting. At the end of the day, this team is where it is because of nearly a decade of poor roster building, and the inability to replace a core that completely crumbled to dust in 2011. This gets posted quite frequently -- and I genuinely don't understand the logic. How are decisions Reese made 10 years ago hurting Gettleman now? The chance of a player being on a roster 10 years later is virtually impossible. The chance of a player being on a roster 5 years later is quite slim. To say the Giants had no defensive line is pretty funny. JPP, Harrison, Tomlinson, and Vernon was certainly a line. You can argue overpaid and unlikeable. But nothing? That's hyperbole. The Giants had a core. It won 11 games the year before he came on -- he didn't like that core and he got rid of all of it. Totally his choice, and probably the right choice. But look at what he's invested by way of resources in the starting group this year. Should the team be this bad?

You don't understand the logic, or you refuse to acknowledge it?

Let's say the league created an expansion team, and you were in charge of it. Do you think you'd be able to field an entire, competitive, 53 man roster in your first season with the resources available? Or do you think it would take time to build it up? Some trial an error? Putting a roster out there, evaluating it, and tweaking it? Rinse repeat?

This poster is most dead on, IMO, on what happened. In the age of parity, the NFL is designed for teams to go from worst to first. Dave Gettleman came in and tried:

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It is DG's team Lines of Scrimmage : 6:17 am : link : reply and I believe there are a few things to consider that I believe to be true. 1. Eli Manning was going to finish his contract and this was a Mara/Tisch mandate. Under this premise, DG tried to stabilize the line and added a "generational" RB to facilitate this. Solder while expensive had been at least a solid LT and there was not one else available. I also think part of signing him was that there was no leadership in the OL room. The same logic applied to Ogletree. 2. Last year, DG went into the season expecting to compete and that to me is playing meaningful games in December. I think he realized how poor the team was early on and why he sold assets and acquired picks. I think this message was presented and accepted by ownership.

So he cut his losses and went full on tear down, which is what many of you advocated for any way.

I just don't understand why Gettleman is taking on so much shit, and has been since Day 1. And let's be honest, the same people giving him the most shit now were giving him the most shit before he even made a move to begin with.

Who are the other GMs that pulled off full on rebuilds in one offseason? For all the love Cleveland got for John Dorsey, who many on BBI wanted desperately over DG, does he get a pass? Or should they be seeing results already too?

It’s becoming clear it’s ownership’s fault.

Yes, Jones is holding the ball way too long and that will hopefully improve over time. The last sack was DJ simply not diagnosing the blitz. But this line on its best day is average.

We have the highest paid LT in the league and his play is nowhere close to that. Halapio is inconsistent and Remmers is not providing much of anything. Hernandez is still young and improving, but he is not turning into the dominating force many believed he would. So far Zeitler has been steady, but he is playing between two guys who are often below average.

For better or worse this is a Gettleman roster now. Reese deserved most of the crap he took, but it is important to remember that Gettleman also kept much of Reese's infrastructure so it's hard to argue that he was completely incompetent since the new guy changed very little.

In comment 14640313 christian said:

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In comment 14640280 Britt in VA said: Quote: Gettleman, on the other hand, walked into a roster with no core, no offense or defensive lines, which had been driven into the ground for nearly 10 years of horrible, horrible drafting. At the end of the day, this team is where it is because of nearly a decade of poor roster building, and the inability to replace a core that completely crumbled to dust in 2011. This gets posted quite frequently -- and I genuinely don't understand the logic. How are decisions Reese made 10 years ago hurting Gettleman now? The chance of a player being on a roster 10 years later is virtually impossible. The chance of a player being on a roster 5 years later is quite slim. To say the Giants had no defensive line is pretty funny. JPP, Harrison, Tomlinson, and Vernon was certainly a line. You can argue overpaid and unlikeable. But nothing? That's hyperbole. The Giants had a core. It won 11 games the year before he came on -- he didn't like that core and he got rid of all of it. Totally his choice, and probably the right choice. But look at what he's invested by way of resources in the starting group this year. Should the team be this bad?

Ten years was probably an exaggeration but the point remains that for a long time the drafting stunk and there were also some career ending injuries to very good/great players.

You speak of the corps the Giants had and mention JPP, Vern, Harrison and others. The question I would ask you is do you think DG felt these players and others on the team when he took over could be part of a championship team? I don't but he gave it a go year 1 with Manning.

I don't know how things will work out for DG. I do believe he knows what a champion team looks like. Maybe he just cut bait with many knowing that a new and younger corps needed to be established for the next great team.

if you recall - they're not that far removed from being a playoff team. Giants have looked really bad last few games in large part due to some dumb mistakes.

This is Gettleman's team. Last half of last season saw improvement. Getting off to a slow start this year. Most promising LB out for the season. And they have to compensate for absence of OBJ. Teams don't have to game plan for him. Just Stop the run, cover average receiving corps and confuse the rookie QB.

You asked for a rebuild - you got it.

10-6, 11-5, & 13-3. They have Chandler Jones, Terrell Suggs, & Peterson. and some other decent players. Sundays game still stings but the hole they're digging out of is shallower than the one Giants are digging out of

start to play better in the 2nd half of the season and the arrow is pointing up again. Right now the arrow is neutral at best and in some cases we've seen regression. I think it's critical that we see improvement from the young defensive players (please for the love of God trade Jenkins and sit Bethea, play Bellentine, Beal and Love the rest of the year and let them learn on the field). Obviously we need to see Jones learn from all these mistakes of late and not make the same ones in November and December.

The reason why this is important is that Gettleman and Shurmur are not dumb. Everyone knows the Giants have lots of cap room in 2020 and draft picks. I feel like we are back to Jim Fassel ball where you get right up to the last moment where you think you are going to fire him and he pulls a playoff run out of his ass. Job preservation is a strong motivator and can cause some short sighted decisions. I can easily see Shurmur fire Bettcher to give the fans/owners a pound of flesh at the end of the year. And from there the Giants might go on a free agency spree to goose their way to a 10 win season and get to the playoffs, but they will get guys who we will be begging to cut in 2 years time. I want them to build a team that has an extended window of success (5-7 years) not one where they will settle in at 7-9 or 8-8 and then surprise with a 10-6 when the heat is on, but get bounced in the playoffs. Like I said, we saw this movie before with Fassel.

After two excellent drafts we still have a long ways to go. The FA acquisitions have been less successful but that’s with very limited cap room. The trades have been ok mostly because of the OBJ trade where seems like we got good value and the use of the draft choices we got for some of other players. That’s how deep the hole is we’re digging ourselves out of.

No one else back there has proven anything and may not prove anything. Get a pass rush and they'll all look better.

Just can't keep trading away your better players and expect to play better football. That is not logical.