When Does it Stop Being Reese's Fault?

some time to fully rebuild the team -character wise and talent wise. I love what hes doing. let him do what needs to be done. stop worrying about it. IT takes time to rebuild. Still many massing pieces. but I like this team. they fought hrd against the best team in the league without their best. Too many naysayers who know better.. Look a lot of the players many would have drafted may not have helped rebuild the character of the team or the maturity Darnold is a good young QB but very immature -hes lucky hes on the jets. He needs a lot of room to grow. The biggest piece missing is the D. Once that is rebuilt and I like a few of the new parts btw its all good. Chill the f out. or don't. Reese destroyed the core of the team it was paper thin with mercenaries.. they laughed when Eli got benched by McDoo. Remember that.

This is DG & Shurmur's team - they have to be graded on it now. If DJ8 kept on his win streak from the first 2 games, they certainly would be taking credit for it.

I was a big Coughlin & Eli fan, and frankly I have to give Reese credit for the 2 superbowls as well. Results matter end of the day.

I still feel that his dumb focus on keeping smug Marc Ross employed was his real undoing. Despite investment in OL his team never hit on a good prospect.

how long did Reese get after 2013 to fix it?

That's a good measurement for what DG should get. So let's say another year or so.

need to be graded immediately is what gets these discussions going in the first place.

They most definitely do not need a grade right now, but once people are frustrated (or euphoric), they want immediacy. There is no patience anymore.

Hell, just a couple weeks ago, we had threads talking about how the Niners have quickly turned things around, even though they've been shitty for the past several years. I guess that got people off the talking points that the Jaguars were going to be perennial contenders.

It is increasingly tough to discern between what are good moves and what are bad moves because you have a lot of reactionary assholes screaming daily on BBI about not having plans, about an out of touch GM and about a terrible roster. They aren't really looking to be patient - they just want to vent.

And make it sound like they have the answers.

So how can anyone complain?

Or, having the goal of an ideal style of play, one that has rarely materialised.

Both macadoo and Shurmer: being very reluctant to implement in practice, invest in roster and call on game day certain types of running and integrate that into passing

Again, that spans two gms.

You know ownership is in on coach hires. No gm does coach hires without ownership blessing or even guiding.

And all that system stuff, impacting on line play and qb success especially.

So.

In comment 14640280 Britt in VA said:

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In comment 14640242 Big Blue Blogger said: Quote: If the 2018 Giants had won the Super Bowl, would Jerry Reese have deserved credit? If the 2019 Giants were 7-0, would we be praising Jerry Reese for setting the stage for long-term success? Jeez, it’s Gettleman’s team, for better or worse. He is what his record says he is. Did Ernie Accorsi get credit in 2007? He did. I believe Ernie Accorsi also deserved some credit in 2011, because those two lines, offense and defense, were built under his watch. Jerry Reese added a lot of excellent supplemental pieces to a very nice core which all contributed. Jerry Reese inherited a very strong roster. Gettleman, on the other hand, walked into a roster with no core, no offense or defensive lines, which had been driven into the ground for nearly 10 years of horrible, horrible drafting. At the end of the day, this team is where it is because of nearly a decade of poor roster building, and the inability to replace a core that completely crumbled to dust in 2011. I think Gettleman deserves longer than 20 months to undo all of that.

This.

Serious question - I have no idea what the answer is. Was he a candidate for anyone else?

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I just don't understand why Gettleman is taking on so much shit, and has been since Day 1. And let's be honest, the same people giving him the most shit now were giving him the most shit before he even made a move to begin with. Who are the other GMs that pulled off full on rebuilds in one offseason? For all the love Cleveland got for John Dorsey, who many on BBI wanted desperately over DG, does he get a pass? Or should they be seeing results already too?

It’s not hard to understand why. Gettleman digs his own grave every time he speaks. We don’t sign someone to trade them. Trades OBJ. I fell in love with him at the Senior Bowl. Let’s go get the hogmollies and we still have a brutal offensive line. You can compete in the NFL through FA and the draft. We have sucked for 2 years Eli isn’t done I watched the tape. Gets a new QB a year later.

He’s nearly 70, so he really doesn’t give a fuck, but if he just shut up and did his job, I think the light might shine a little differently.

think it's Gettleman's team right now. He's jettisoned all of Reese's big players, except for Jenkins, Engram, Tomlinson, and Gallman. JPP, Vernon, Snacks, Pugh, Richburg, Apple, OBJ, and Collins are all gone.

My problem is that DG was supposed to be what Reese was not, namely someone who could identify OL talent. But he's failed, aside from Hernandez and Zeitler. Solder, Omameh, Halapio, Pulley, and Remmers were bad signings. And since Slade, Gates, and Smith can't beat them out, it means that we also have no depth.

This becomes more obvious every week and is unforgivable. As far as the rest of it he makes one bad move for every good one.

was the GM of the Giants and they won 2 Super Bowls. Trust Dave Gettleman is never going to win a Super Bowl as the Giants GM.

To answer the OPs question absolutely nothing happening with the Giants right now has anything to do with Jerry Reese. It is all 100% on Gettleman.

Next summer Gettleman will have money, and a third draft.

Definitely by 20-21, since at that point if coaching is the issue, its his job to resolve it.

In comment 14640559 arniefez said:

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was the GM of the Giants and they won 2 Super Bowls. Trust Dave Gettleman is never going to win a Super Bowl as the Giants GM. To answer the OPs question absolutely nothing happening with the Giants right now has anything to do with Jerry Reese. It is all 100% on Gettleman.

We won the second super bowl because of Eli, not because of Reese. He was already starting to fuck up drafts before that second super bowl.

He gets full credit for the first one. 100%.

ie: the offensive line.

The 2008 NYG Offensive line was the absolute best line of the modern era for the Giants.

Here is how that line was built:

Well let's look at that offensive line, shall we?

Dave Diehl LT: 5th round pick 2003
Rich Seubert: LG Undrafted FA 2001
Shaun O'hara: C Undrafted FA 2000 traded to Giants in 2004
Chris Snee: RG 2nd round pick 2004
Kareem McKenzie: RT 3rd round pick 2001, signed as FA by Giants in 2005.

So that line was built in varying degrees by drafting, trading, and signing FA's over the course of five years, then an additional three-four years of playing together to become the line it did in 2008.

Why is Dave Gettleman supposed to do all of that in one offseason?

Pugh looked like he had no problem handling Dexter Lawrence on Sunday, and Richberg is the starting Center on an undefeated team. Those guys were good picks, didn't work out with the Giants, but they have talent and are starting caliber OL - that's proven. Even guys like Hart and Flowers are starters, not back ups, on other teams. I think it's hard to find good OL these days. It was supposed to be DG's strength. He spend a ton on a LT, used a very high second round pick on a LG, traded for a highly paid RG. He also proclaimed in January that the offense played well in the second half of last year after he "fixed" the OL. Yet here we are in October and the line does not appear to be fixed. That seemed pretty apparent during the first half of the third pre-season game against the Bengals.

I still think the coaching is bad, and that's the biggest issue right now, and has been since about 2014. Getting a good HC, and a good OL coach would go a long way to be in the mix for the division. That and 2 good pass rushers. If I had to pick between OL and good past rushers, give me the pass rushers first. In the end, you still win with Defense.

Gettleman jettisoned him for Jon Halapio. Fuckin' ingenious.....it's a Swiss fuckin' watch if I'm understanding it correctly.

without Nicks, Cruz, MM, JPP, Bradshaw, etc. Giving Eli full credit for that , and Reese none is just idiotic!

we need to conveniently forget that people said re-signing Richburg would be a terrible move at the contract he wanted, but we reserve the right to keep bitching about letting him go anyway.....

That's the way miserable anger works, I'm guessing

went from promising rookie to pariah pretty quick.

was he playing poorly towards the end of his contract or was he just brought down by the sinking tide.

Replacing him with Halapio? That's a disgrace.

In comment 14640471 Britt in VA said:

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how long did Reese get after 2013 to fix it? That's a good measurement for what DG should get. So let's say another year or so.

So you're of the opinion that Reese shouldn't have gone along with TC?

In comment 14640637 Britt in VA said:

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ie: the offensive line. The 2008 NYG Offensive line was the absolute best line of the modern era for the Giants. Here is how that line was built: Well let's look at that offensive line, shall we? Dave Diehl LT: 5th round pick 2003 Rich Seubert: LG Undrafted FA 2001 Shaun O'hara: C Undrafted FA 2000 traded to Giants in 2004 Chris Snee: RG 2nd round pick 2004 Kareem McKenzie: RT 3rd round pick 2001, signed as FA by Giants in 2005. So that line was built in varying degrees by drafting, trading, and signing FA's over the course of five years, then an additional three-four years of playing together to become the line it did in 2008. Why is Dave Gettleman supposed to do all of that in one offseason?

so a better line was constructed by expending fewer resources...and this somehow absolves Gettleman? Only on BBI...

Is going to get 5 years at minimum, that is fair in assesing how good a GM is performing, a head coach is 3 years, unless they are horrible and lose the team. That is why when people Reese credit for the first Super Bowl it was pathetic, it was 90% EA at minimum, probably closer to 95%. Right now Gettleman is not looking good at all because he hired Shurmur, added Ogletree and Solder as core pieces, and they have sucked. The drafts can not fairly be evaluated yet. His free agent pick ups, which is for immediate help have been putrid, add in Reeses drafts and we suck.

But he still gets a couple more years. You can't gut a team completely and rebuild in a two years without some luck.

AND SOME COACHING.

That's why if the team doesn't look like it's progressing the right way after December, Shurmur is getting fired.

And, he's getting fired I think.............

That's because the cupboard was so bare that the whole team has to be re-built from the ground up, and contrary to popular opinion, that CANNOT be done in one or two seasons.

Despite the veteran free agent failures, Gettleman has a good start on re-building with players like Jones, Barkley, Hernandez, Zeitler, Hill, Lawrence, Golden, and Peppers along with a couple of hold-overs.

In comment 14640382 Britt in VA said:

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You don't understand the logic, or you refuse to acknowledge it?

That doesn't answer anything I posted. Quite simply:

1) What bearing do you think bad draft choices 10 years ago have on the team today? Do you real feel that's relevant?

2) When you said there was no defensive line, do you mean to say Vernon, Snacks, Tomlinson, JPP weren't passable?

3) When you say there was no core, do you mean to say OBJ, Manning, Engram, Shepard, Collins, Jenkins, Vernon, Snacks, Kennard, Tomlinson, JPP, Apple, Jones, Jerry, Okwara, all guys still employed in the NFL weren't are core?

Most importantly, you seem to think I'm implying Gettleman should be done or indicted. I know a lot of folks feel that way. I don't.

I think it's a really young team and gets an incomplete.

I also think it's ridiculous to be blaming Reese for a team Gettleman went to incredible lengths to rebuild in his vision.

as I noted, he really didn't work out here. However, saying guys like him and Pugh aren't, at a minimun, decent OL players is false. The reasons they didn't work out here really aren't on the GM, IMO, because the talent is there.

The other thing about DG is that he said he was gonna kick ass, and that you could win while re-building. The only ass I see getting kicked is the Giants, and on a weekly basis. He also claimed that the line was fixed in the second half of last year. The results on the field speak otherwise. The only ass kicking going on is the being administered by the opposing teams.

I'm ok giving DG a couple more years, but only if he replaces Shurmur with a decent HC after this season.

In comment 14640826 christian said:

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In comment 14640382 Britt in VA said: Quote: You don't understand the logic, or you refuse to acknowledge it? That doesn't answer anything I posted. Quite simply: 1) What bearing do you think bad draft choices 10 years ago have on the team today? Do you real feel that's relevant? 2) When you said there was no defensive line, do you mean to say Vernon, Snacks, Tomlinson, JPP weren't passable? 3) When you say there was no core, do you mean to say OBJ, Manning, Engram, Shepard, Collins, Jenkins, Vernon, Snacks, Kennard, Tomlinson, JPP, Apple, Jones, Jerry, Okwara, all guys still employed in the NFL weren't are core? Most importantly, you seem to think I'm implying Gettleman should be done or indicted. I know a lot of folks feel that way. I don't. I think it's a really young team and gets an incomplete. I also think it's ridiculous to be blaming Reese for a team Gettleman went to incredible lengths to rebuild in his vision.

I did answer it. Having to rebuild an entire 53 man roster with finite resources over the course of one offseason is a tough task. Why the previous ten years matter is because of what you're starting point is. Compare the team Reese took over from Accorsi to the one Gettleman took over from Reese. Reese didn't have to touch the offensive or defensive line until much later. Much later.

In regards to the core you are saying was present, they were all underperforming and were losing. You yourself said it was probably the right call to ship them out and start over. Gettleman gave that defense a chance before shipping them out, then said to hell with it, I've seen enough and started the full rebuild 8 games into season one. So no, I don't think he inherited a core similar to what Reese inherited when he took over in 2007. Those dudes were already winning games, entering their prime in many cases.

The "core" you are referring to not only were not living up to their contracts, they were pains in the ass to deal with, malcontents by most accounts to boot.

For all the people saying Gettleman miscalculated and we started the rebuild late, well you approximately lost about 8 games before that happened. At least he had the balls to cut his losses and change course unlike Reese who kept trotting Flowers out there at LT year after year.

2018 didn't count?

already that it's a failure.

the state of the team upon your arrival... and spend the first off-season trying to get pieces to win now... then that year doesn't count towards the rebuild you should be doing.
so yes this is now year 1 apparently

In comment 14640862 hitdog42 said:

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the state of the team upon your arrival... and spend the first off-season trying to get pieces to win now... then that year doesn't count towards the rebuild you should be doing. so yes this is now year 1 apparently

Or he started by trying to win now and rebuild concurrently, then realized upon taking the wrapper off that the job was much bigger than he thought (to make an analogy, the plumber comes in to fix a leaky tub but doesn't realize until he actually gets in there and into the actual shit that the entire system of pipes needs to be replaced).

We can agree to disagree about the 10 year period, I think a 4-5 year period prior is about as much as you can expect to materially impact a team. If the argument is Reese did a bad job the 5 years leading up to his departure I'd buy that is logical.

So given how lousy the core that was left, would you agree Gettleman did well to turn JPP, Apple, Snacks, Vernon, and OBJ into: two 3rds, a 4th, 5th, 1st, Peppers, Zeitler?

In his short time as time as GM isn't it quite remarkable he's had:

4 1st round picks
1 2nd round pick
3 3rd round picks
8 players picked in the top 100 over two years?

Doesn't that indicate, in addition to the other trades he made for high salary players and considerable UFA money spent, this is really his team?

In comment 14640363 FatMan in Charlotte said:

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posters on this thread arguing Reese's impact is minimal now are some of the same people who have said Gettleman was along for the ride in Carolina. So it seems to be less a question about reese and more a continued problem regarding Gettleman. I continue to just shake my head at the daily ways to crap on the guy.

The facts that Reese sucked, that Gettleman has a unique approach to building a team, that this is Gettleman’s team now and that many pieces were in place in Carolina when Gettleman got there are not mutually exclusive,

there were no actual football players here, let's forget that there are still plenty of them earning paychecks on teams that are playing better elsewhere.

Even if that were somehow acceptable - the fact that the guys he got to replace the people he sent packing haven't been any good. The FAs were atrocious, and so far most of the draftees are average at best.

Except for Barkley of course, but if he managed to fuck up the 2nd overall pick then the Giants would really be screwed.

In comment 14640869 christian said:

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We can agree to disagree about the 10 year period, I think a 4-5 year period prior is about as much as you can expect to materially impact a team. If the argument is Reese did a bad job the 5 years leading up to his departure I'd buy that is logical. So given how lousy the core that was left, would you agree Gettleman did well to turn JPP, Apple, Snacks, Vernon, and OBJ into: two 3rds, a 4th, 5th, 1st, Peppers, Zeitler? In his short time as time as GM isn't it quite remarkable he's had: 4 1st round picks 1 2nd round pick 3 3rd round picks 8 players picked in the top 100 over two years? Doesn't that indicate, in addition to the other trades he made for high salary players and considerable UFA money spent, this is really his team?

Yes, I would agree to that he has a good job turning over those players and I am happy with the players we have in place as a result.

But I would also say that all of those pieces are young, many rookies and players that are under 3 years in the league, and it's going to take time to see what we have with it all. Not to mention the supplementing he's going to have to continue to do.

I think one more draft and some money to work with next offseason will give us a clearer picture of what the sum of all this is, and a much clearer vision of what Gettleman's team looks like.

In comment 14640471 Britt in VA said:

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how long did Reese get after 2013 to fix it? That's a good measurement for what DG should get. So let's say another year or so.

It’s fair game to say that Gettleman got rid of a lot of players and has spent draft and FA resources to replace those players and in the process created as many holes as he has filled. Nor is it unfair to say that he has exhibited some of the same behaviors that led to his downfall in Carolina.The result is a team that is 2-5 and seems to be going backwards.

You say give him more time. Ok, that’s fair but what has he done so far to instill confidence that he is headed in the right direction?

In comment 14640889 HomerJones45 said:

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In comment 14640471 Britt in VA said: Quote: how long did Reese get after 2013 to fix it? That's a good measurement for what DG should get. So let's say another year or so. It’s fair game to say that Gettleman got rid of a lot of players and has spent draft and FA resources to replace those players and in the process created as many holes as he has filled. Nor is it unfair to say that he has exhibited some of the same behaviors that led to his downfall in Carolina.The result is a team that is 2-5 and seems to be going backwards. You say give him more time. Ok, that’s fair but what has he done so far to instill confidence that he is headed in the right direction?

Barkley, Jones, Dexter Lawrence, Will Hernandez, and Peppers are a nice start.

But if they pick up Peppers 5th year option this off-season I'll be shocked.

In comment 14640191 Vanzetti said:

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As most rational posters realized all along

really? how so?

In comment 14640520 Greg from LI said:

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Serious question - I have no idea what the answer is. Was he a candidate for anyone else?

Uh, no.

He was the only candidate recommended by Chief Consulting Officer, Ernie Accorsi.

I think one with the raiders?

My POV is the league didn't view the core of the team as poorly as the fans -- they either brought back good returns or signed elsewhere for nice contracts.

If Gettleman thought they were too big of assholes or overpaid, I get that.

What I just fundamentally reject is that Gettleman gets a break now because of Reese.

He's spent high picks or good money on virtually every starter. When a GM spends a high pick or good money on a player they should be good players, right?

That's what Reese was bad at, no?

That might have had something to do with it.

In comment 14640924 christian said:

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My POV is the league didn't view the core of the team as poorly as the fans -- they either brought back good returns or signed elsewhere for nice contracts. If Gettleman thought they were too big of assholes or overpaid, I get that. What I just fundamentally reject is that Gettleman gets a break now because of Reese. He's spent high picks or good money on virtually every starter. When a GM spends a high pick or good money on a player they should be good players, right? That's what Reese was bad at, no?

He doesn't get a pass but he should get a little time and patience considering the scope of the rebuild.

out of here after the 2006. An 8-8 season when we lost to the Eagles in the playoffs. In fact, they never liked the guy to begin with.

They wanted him gone again after 2009.

Those views would have cost us two incredible seasons if the owners had been as knee jerk as the fans.

As Gettleman likes to say, when you make decisions based off what the fans think, you're sitting with them.

In comment 14640932 Britt in VA said:

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In comment 14640924 christian said: Quote: My POV is the league didn't view the core of the team as poorly as the fans -- they either brought back good returns or signed elsewhere for nice contracts. If Gettleman thought they were too big of assholes or overpaid, I get that. What I just fundamentally reject is that Gettleman gets a break now because of Reese. He's spent high picks or good money on virtually every starter. When a GM spends a high pick or good money on a player they should be good players, right? That's what Reese was bad at, no? He doesn't get a pass but he should get a little time and patience considering the scope of the rebuild.

Completely agree. I feel like Gettleman should not be judged until end of next season. I think he needs to produce a winning season or lose his job.

Based on what he was able to recoup for the players he didn't want, and the money he's been able to spend -- I don't buy the situation he walked into was the tragedy some make it.

I think it's pretty fair for a GM to get top 100 picks right, former 1st rounders he trades for right, and we'll paid UFAs right.

Most of the team he's constructed is made up of those types of players.

This isn't all Reese's roster, nor is it all Gettleman's. I consider it a roster in transition.

In comment 14640932 Britt in VA said:

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In comment 14640924 christian said: Quote: My POV is the league didn't view the core of the team as poorly as the fans -- they either brought back good returns or signed elsewhere for nice contracts. If Gettleman thought they were too big of assholes or overpaid, I get that. What I just fundamentally reject is that Gettleman gets a break now because of Reese. He's spent high picks or good money on virtually every starter. When a GM spends a high pick or good money on a player they should be good players, right? That's what Reese was bad at, no? He doesn't get a pass but he should get a little time and patience considering the scope of the rebuild.

So how much time does he get? In a league of parity, where every season we see teams go worst to first, we're at best stuck in neutral and by some measures regressing. A five year rebuild in this league is nonsense. They don't exist, they're just an excuse for failing to put a contending football team on the field. Is the situation Gettelman inherited any worse than what Lynch and Shannahan took over in SF, or what Ballard and Reich took over in Indianpolis minus Luck? The constant excuses are beyond tiresome. Some will be here a year from now making the same ones.