When Does it Stop Being Reese's Fault?

But I've found just about everything about this season incredibly discouraging and leaves me without much confidence in this regime.

Eli will be gone, he'll be on his third draft and have money to add any free agent he can convince to come here. There will be no way to blame the lackluster parts of the roster on Reese any longer.

In comment 14640959 Kyle in NY said:

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So how much time does he get? In a league of parity, where every season we see teams go worst to first, we're at best stuck in neutral and by some measures regressing. A five year rebuild in this league is nonsense. They don't exist, they're just an excuse for failing to put a contending football team on the field. Is the situation Gettelman inherited any worse than what Lynch and Shannahan took over in SF, or what Ballard and Reich took over in Indianpolis minus Luck? The constant excuses are beyond tiresome. Some will be here a year from now making the same ones.

And, even more so than the excuses is the fact that many of the people now making these excuses were predicting playoff berths the last two years. Remember the "Eli Revenge Tour" we were supposedly going to see last year?

More than a few posters have been wildly wrong about this team over the past two seasons, and when their predictions have proven incorrect, they just shrug and say things like "Well, Reese left them in SUCH a bad state that it was always going to take years to turn it around" and "You guys are so impatient!"

In comment 14640989 Greg from LI said:

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In comment 14640959 Kyle in NY said: Quote: So how much time does he get? In a league of parity, where every season we see teams go worst to first, we're at best stuck in neutral and by some measures regressing. A five year rebuild in this league is nonsense. They don't exist, they're just an excuse for failing to put a contending football team on the field. Is the situation Gettelman inherited any worse than what Lynch and Shannahan took over in SF, or what Ballard and Reich took over in Indianpolis minus Luck? The constant excuses are beyond tiresome. Some will be here a year from now making the same ones. And, even more so than the excuses is the fact that many of the people now making these excuses were predicting playoff berths the last two years. Remember the "Eli Revenge Tour" we were supposedly going to see last year? More than a few posters have been wildly wrong about this team over the past two seasons, and when their predictions have proven incorrect, they just shrug and say things like "Well, Reese left them in SUCH a bad state that it was always going to take years to turn it around" and "You guys are so impatient!"

yup

1. Shurmur
2. Beckham
3. Eli

Jury is still out on the Barkley pick, but that's not looking good either.

Gettleman should not get the opportunity this offseason to splurge on free agents in a week attempt at competing in 2020.

This story ends with Gettleman and Shurmur being fired. The only thing that's up in the air is will it be January 2020 or 2021?

In comment 14641044 Go Terps said:

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1. Shurmur 2. Beckham 3. Eli Jury is still out on the Barkley pick, but that's not looking good either. Gettleman should not get the opportunity this offseason to splurge on free agents in a week attempt at competing in 2020. This story ends with Gettleman and Shurmur being fired. The only thing that's up in the air is will it be January 2020 or 2021?

lol Beckham? Brilliant move.

Some of the people telling us DG couldn't turn it around in an off-season or two were also telling us we'd be making the playoffs last year and this year.

I think DG misjudged the roster last year and thought we could make a run. That's a huge fuck up. We all saw the team in 2017 - how the hell did he need a few games to figure out they sucked?

He does need time to be judged on his drafts. I think it's way too soon to assert they're great, but they've been promising.

But look at his FA signings - guys who we can judge now. He's floundered on the line, and those are all his guys. And he's invested significant resources there. Hernandez, Solder, and Zeitler are serious investments.

I do think he realized this year was going to be a waste. I'm fine giving him another year, but he deserves a ton of shit for the missed FA signings.

Signing him to a contract a year before trading him was a fireable offense.

In comment 14641044 Go Terps said:

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1. Shurmur 2. Beckham 3. Eli Jury is still out on the Barkley pick, but that's not looking good either. Gettleman should not get the opportunity this offseason to splurge on free agents in a week attempt at competing in 2020. This story ends with Gettleman and Shurmur being fired. The only thing that's up in the air is will it be January 2020 or 2021?

Terps, I can see it now.

Giants attempt to splurge in FA on defense in a quick-fix attempt to save jobs next year circa 2016. They go 9-7 and sneak in to the playoffs and then the organization can say that they are a "few tweaks away" from being a real contender, thus justifying everyone returning in 2021 when the bill comes due and those signed players regress.

as a rookie he almost won rushing title, this year he got injured - yeah not looking good. do some of you guys read what what you post?

In comment 14640303 gmenatlarge said:

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In comment 14640250 George from PA said: Quote: Cap cleared....DG's 3rd draft. And I am not one who thinks Reese is all bad.....but never fixing OL was a killer to the team and devastating to Eli's legacy Uh, this O-line still isn't fixed and it is all DG except Halapio.

Two years in and with as much roster turnover as there has been, any guys Gettleman has intentionally kept (such as with Halapio being kept and Jones traded away) can also be considered Gettleman guys now even if Reese was the GM of record when they originally joined the team. It's not like he's been handcuffed to Halapio for any particular reason other than him making the conscious decision to keep him.

The whole thing is Gettleman's now, for better or worse.

In comment 14640866 Britt in VA said:

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In comment 14640862 hitdog42 said: Quote: the state of the team upon your arrival... and spend the first off-season trying to get pieces to win now... then that year doesn't count towards the rebuild you should be doing. so yes this is now year 1 apparently Or he started by trying to win now and rebuild concurrently, then realized upon taking the wrapper off that the job was much bigger than he thought (to make an analogy, the plumber comes in to fix a leaky tub but doesn't realize until he actually gets in there and into the actual shit that the entire system of pipes needs to be replaced).

If you called the plumber initially because you suspected that the whole pipe system was f*cked and he turned around and told you that you only needed to fix the tub, are you still giving the plumber a pass when he eventually concedes that the pipes were indeed f*cked in the first place? Or are you questioning how good of a plumber he actually is that he couldn't see the problem from the start?

IMO, Gettleman shouldn't get a pass for his original assessment of this team. It's his job to accurately assess the roster and act accordingly. He pissed away year one with his incorrect judgment of the team.

In comment 14641552 bc4life said:

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as a rookie he almost won rushing title, this year he got injured - yeah not looking good. do some of you guys read what what you post?

Barkley sits right on the vanguard of player value analysis in the NFL. The conventional wisdom is a guy who gains a bunch of yards must be a good value.

What many are starting to question is whether those yards can be replaced by 1) a more efficient position e.g. WR 2) is the replacement value player cheaper in draft resources 2) is the replacement value player cheaper is cash resources.

This type of analysis shouldn't offend sensibilities. Resistance to value analysis is what set many MLB teams back a decade.

There is an outcome that says even the very best RB isn't as valuable or efficient as a good WR, lineman, or even TE.

The assumption the Barkley is an unequivocal great pick is pretty naive.

In comment 14640937 Britt in VA said:

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As Gettleman likes to say, when you make decisions based off what the fans think, you're sitting with them.

Good thing this organization has never been hypersensitive to what the fans think and has never ever made any decisions to placate them.

Wanna rattle off any other Gettleman platitudes that have already basically proven to be bullshit during his tenure?

We've got a rookie starting at QB, a rookie starting on the DL, a rookie starting at CB.

I'm frustrated by the losing, but willing to wait it out and see before I lynch Gettleman (although Shurmur is fair game).

While I would like to see us compete for a playoff spot in 2020, I mostly want to see improvement. 7 or 8 at the minimum. But if we're not competing for the playoffs in 2021, then it's fair to say that Gettlemen's plan has failed.

keep playing madden - thinking you are going to trade away very good, potentially great players and produce a better product.

In comment 14642064 bc4life said:

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keep playing madden - thinking you are going to trade away very good, potentially great players and produce a better product.

Christian wasn't suggesting you trade Barkley - but he does make a good point that even if Barkley turns out to be a very good to great player doesn't automatically make him a great pick.

It boils down to - if you could have taken another RB that gets you 75% of the production of Barkley elsewhere, and used the #2 overall to either trade down for multiple players or select another blue chip there (say, Quintin Nelson) - are you better off?

Right now it's hard to argue definitively in either case. The team stinks with Barkley - it stunk last year, and he's injured now but before he was hurt they were still not very good offensively. To insist that he was a great pick because of production - that might turn out to be the case, but in no way is it true right now.

are better than us because they have more talented players. The key is improve the supporting cast around our very good players. Have to keep working on that OLine. and Christian was responding to my comment that SB was not "trending poorly"

In comment 14642064 bc4life said:

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keep playing madden - thinking you are going to trade away very good, potentially great players and produce a better product.

Not what I was saying but even so --there are plenty of outcomes where moving one resource for multiple resources ends up better. That's not controversial.

Gettleman employed that exact approach with Beckham.

One very basic alternative outcome from the 2018 draft that requires no leap of faith; the Giants select Quenton Nelson, Braden Smith, and Royce Freeman.

Behind an offensive line of Solder, Nelson, Halapio, Zeitler, Smith -- chances of the Giants matching 17th in the league in rushing?

The notion Barkley's yards are irreplaceable is very dubious.

Just think that in this case makes better sense to build around the few good parts we do have. Just my opinion

from the head. At some point, it is time to start pointing fingers at the ownership. This is a long stretch of ineptitude with no end in sight.

In comment 14642352 Rick5 said:

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from the head. At some point, it is time to start pointing fingers at the ownership. This is a long stretch of ineptitude with no end in sight.

That point came and went - and if ownership has a clue, part of this process would be understanding that they're largely to blame.

The changes really can't be considered wholesale if only Reese is replaced and most of the front office is retained. It's obvious that Mara's brother, Chris, who has been the team's senior vice president of player personnel since 2011, will remain in the front office.

But John Mara said that his brother is not in the running to replace Reese.

"He does not want to be a candidate, I don't think, for the full-time position," John Mara said during an interview with Mike Francesa on WFAN. "His input is certainly going to be something that is very crucial to the final decision."


Full time position? WTF is he doing now?
Link - ( New Window )

"The Giants are a family-run organization and even though Dave Gettleman is the GM in title, John Mara’s brother Chris is also involved in the personnel decisions and carries a Vice President title.


Chris’ background has always been in scouting, working from the bottom of the organization to the top. He has paid his dues and worked hard to become a Vice President, however, because he is also a part owner, his voice has supreme clout. Some might view the Giants as having three GMs: the Mara brothers and Gettleman. And when an NFL team has a committee running their future, they have zero chance to win.

If the Giants were smart, they would hire an outside consulting firm to analyze their organization and either get confirmation that their business model can still work, or be told that they need to revamp. And what has to scare Giants fans the most is that they have not yet reached rock bottom."
Link - ( New Window )

It's fantasy to think there are owners who don't involve themselves in football decisions and it's also fantasy that Mara, whose a career franchise owner, isn't a little closer to it than other breeds of owners (specifically owners who buy teams as an investments or for fun).

I suspect in a vacuum Gettleman handles things a little differently with the scouting staff, the player personnel choices, and maybe even the coaching.

But he's not in a vacuum, he's general managing Mara's business and Mara has flaws.

Mara has his family embedded in the scouting function, he gets sentimental about players, he's got the mistakes his father made haunting him.

It's a tough gig. I respect the work Gettleman has done despite what I perceive to be outside factors.

But I don't excuse his mistakes as some albatross from the ghost of Jerry Reese.

He wasn't handed and didn't employ rag tag resources to construct this team. It's made up of primarily high picks he chose, traded for, or inherited.

completely hands off. It's a billion dollar investment - you wouldn't expect them to just go fuck off to the golf course and let someone else worry about it.

At the same time - there's a difference between being involved and controlling the decisions. Having one of the owners in the role of VP responsible for pro personnel, who considers himself a qualified candidate for the GM spot (even if "not interested in the FT position") is dangerous. It's Daniel Snyder dangerous, albeit with a formal title instead of just a serial meddler.

This is why I was against the Gettleman hire. It was nothing personal for the guy, who I held in high regard for his time as pro personnel director with the Giants during their championship run. It was the comfort level that the rest of the org had that bothered me, and I haven't seen anything to suggest I was wrong.

The scouting department underwent minimal changes. Chris Mara retained his title. Why should anyone expect that the talent acquisition skills of the team would suddenly improve?

I've read here that it was rumored that Ross was lazy and that Reese was disinterested. If that was the case, then most of the personnel decisions would be coming from layers below them. And if that's the case, those layers are still in place today - why wouldn't we expect the same shitty caliber of players?

It seems to me that the FO picked up right where it left off - with the higher picks that had more insight provided by the GM doing better, and the lower round picks being mediocre or worse. FA acquisitions have been equally as bad.

people need to stop trying to blame a single person and realise that’s a lot moving parts working as a whole.