Can you imagine the field day that would be going on this morning on this board if Daniel Jones went 11-32 for 86 yards and had 5 turnovers, and was caught on the sidelines saying that?
I'm not going to sit here and treat playoff losses like a monumental failure when the Giants can't even get there anymore. I'd love to trade places with the Cowboys and at least have a chance rather than stare down the barrel again at another lifeless 5 win season.
Elliott was an all pro as a rookie and has lead the entire league in rushing in both of his healthy seasons. He's not just some guy along for the ride behind a dominant OL... their OL has had a bunch of injuries lately.
And yes, it's not all their offense... they have a good defense too.
How could that be possible if they drafted a RB in the top 5? Reading posts on this board, you'd think it was some sort of miracle.
If you draft well and don't waste cap dollars overpaying over the hill guys in free agency or guys who just flat suck, it's amazing what happens.
and along those lines, when people talk about players being fungible, they often confuse the vast middle ground of average players with elite players.
elite players aren't fungible. And average players at every position are fungible. That's why Nick Foles is fungible. Or today's version of Cam Newton. Or Eli. Wait a minute - QB's aren't supposed to be fungible!!
Gettleman's "great football resume", the one he always likes to remind us about, but I am certain I wouldn't have made this colossal mistake:
Keeping Eli.
Do you think that was a DG move? Honest question. If you do then yes, I'd been fine with the DG criticism for it but I for one don't think he had a choice.
And if that's the case then its just really hard to critique when that's been the biggest decision the franchise has faced in 15 years.
Here how I think it went with Eli.
In 2018, Gettleman was following marching orders from Mara to keep Eli. So I think that was out of his hands. And he wanted the job. Which required, IMV, committing to keep Eli as the QB.
Coming into this year? Different story. I think keeping Eli for 2019 was Gettleman's choice. He knew he was drafting a QB - essentially admitted it draft post-mortem - and envisioned Eli the mentor, the eventual baton passing, etc.
Tell me, what makes Elliott so special? Dalvin Cook was a second round pick running behind an OL inferior to Elliott's, but he's averaging almost a yard more per carry and run for more yards. Nick Chubb is another second round pick with a lesser OL and he's having a better season than Elliott.
2018, Elliott led the league in rushing yards....because he also led the league in rushing attempts. Wasn't in the top ten in either TDs or YPC.
I'm not going to sit here and treat playoff losses like a monumental failure when the Giants can't even get there anymore. I'd love to trade places with the Cowboys and at least have a chance rather than stare down the barrel again at another lifeless 5 win season.
Dallas was in a very different position in 2016 than the Giants were last year. They were coming off a 4-win season mainly because Romo was hurt. They were 12-4 the year prior, they had talent. You can make a luxury pick in that spot. The Giants did not have that luxury in 2018.
Chubb has a fantastic year last season and the Broncos still sucked. They were just as bad as the Giants. The Broncos didn’t get their first win of this season until Chubb after went on IR. Yet I don’t see people killing him as a bad pick based on team results for some reason. That’s reserved for Barkley around here
Because Barkley's skills will erode much faster than Chubb's. I don't think there's a person on this board that thinks Barkley isn't a fantastic player. The difference is that Chubb and Nelson are much more likely to anchor their positions for 5-10 years.
Dalvin Cook is a 1st round talent who dropped because of concerns over his shoulder. It didn't require the same investment to draft him, but he should be a good case for how a great RB can elevate your offense rather than a cautionary tale...
RE: In the hundred years of this league, it is extremely rare Â
that teams will ever pass on drafting extremely high generational RBs of the quality of a Jim Brown, Gale Sayers, Barry Sanders, AP and SB, to name a few. It just isn’t done. It will never, ever, be done imv..There have been other backs who were drafted high and flamed out, but they were never considered generational..
We are so fucking lucky to have such a back in SB..And now, we may have completed a “bifecta” with the drafting of DJ, but at the moment, too soon to know.
Seriously, do you pay attention to who has success in this league over the last 15 years?
You just don't need a great/transcendent RB to compete and win the biggest prizes. That part of the equation no longer applies. Hell, we proved it in 2008 and 2011.
It's just wiser to invest your limited cap dollars into other areas that are more critical for success.
The best way to play the RB game is to recycle to a new group every 2-3 years. And do it < the league average for the position.
Because Barkley's skills will erode much faster than Chubb's. I don't think there's a person on this board that thinks Barkley isn't a fantastic player. The difference is that Chubb and Nelson are much more likely to anchor their positions for 5-10 years.
That's mostly right - in theory. Barkley could always break the mold. But even if he does it doesn't mean anything because RBs just don't have the same impact on winning anymore. Their win-share value is < than QBs, WRs, TEs, and Kickers.
And I gave Gettleman credit for doing it. They should have let him go after it was done, because the team he is constructing is a complete mess.
And more mistakes are on the way. Next up are some big free agent contracts this offseason because we'll be "ready to compete" in 2020. After that will be making Barkley the highest paid back in the league.
Because Barkley's skills will erode much faster than Chubb's. I don't think there's a person on this board that thinks Barkley isn't a fantastic player. The difference is that Chubb and Nelson are much more likely to anchor their positions for 5-10 years.
That's mostly right - in theory. Barkley could always break the mold. But even if he does it doesn't mean anything because RBs just don't have the same impact on winning anymore. Their win-share value is < than QBs, WRs, TEs, and Kickers.
Seriously, do you pay attention to who has success in this league over the last 15 years?
Who has had sustained success the past 15 years to point to?
Even ignoring the Pats (who lo and behold selected a RB in the 1st round last year), the Rams who played them in the SB with a high first round pick at RB. The Steelers with a 2nd round pick anchoring their offense for several years. The Cowboys with Elliott. The examples of teams not having a RB drafted pretty high is shrinking.
But beyond that - what is the blueprint for success the past 15 years? Haven't most teams taken wildly different routes? The best correlation you'll find is having a QB on his rookie deal using up less of the cap, but then those pesky Pats refute that.
RE: In the hundred years of this league, it is extremely rare Â
that teams will ever pass on drafting extremely high generational RBs of the quality of a Jim Brown, Gale Sayers, Barry Sanders, AP and SB, to name a few. It just isn’t done. It will never, ever, be done imv..There have been other backs who were drafted high and flamed out, but they were never considered generational..
We are so fucking lucky to have such a back in SB..And now, we may have completed a “bifecta” with the drafting of DJ, but at the moment, too soon to know.
Seriously, do you pay attention to who has success in this league over the last 15 years?
Who has had sustained success the past 15 years to point to?
Even ignoring the Pats (who lo and behold selected a RB in the 1st round last year), the Rams who played them in the SB with a high first round pick at RB. The Steelers with a 2nd round pick anchoring their offense for several years. The Cowboys with Elliott. The examples of teams not having a RB drafted pretty high is shrinking.
But beyond that - what is the blueprint for success the past 15 years? Haven't most teams taken wildly different routes? The best correlation you'll find is having a QB on his rookie deal using up less of the cap, but then those pesky Pats refute that.
The whole cheap QB thing is nearly as widespread either. Going back 15 years?
The majority of those titles have been won by
Manning, Manning, Brees, Brady, Rodgers and Ben
The Hawks did it but then guess what? They paid Russ. That seems to be working pretty well!
Flacco and Foles seem to be a bit of an anomaly.
But to your point FatMan, total agreement. Outside of the Pats, where is "the plan" to point to for how to build?
and I understand. We gotta VENT. We are in the middle of the "Upside Down" (Sorry JUST started watching Stranger Things and its GOOD) with no signs of knowing how to get out. Just lost. For every good game we have we seem to have 4 horrible games.
But getting back to Darnold, he's got a very similar situation to DJ in that his Headcoach is a good QB whisperer but a bad HC. He's got a decent running back and ......does he have a tight end or a receiver equal to Even Engram or Shepard or Tate? I am in FMiC's camp of being sick of hearing how we should have drafted Darnold and not Barkley, but he's still got Mono, he's got no OL and old Goofy Eyes gave him one of the worst pep talks I've ever heard mid game. The hyperbole on this board and in the media as well is utterly ridiculous.
They've won one playoff game in three seasons with Elliott. In 2017, when Elliott missed some games, their record with him was 6-4 and their record without him was 3-3. Alfred Morris' washed up ass actually had better numbers in his place.
Elliott is nothing special. He runs behind a great OL, that's all.
Elliott is an excellent player. I couldn't disagree more.
They haven't had a losing year since they drafted Elliott. They were 4-12 the year before they drafted him.
I'm pretty sure we'd be complaining a lot less if we were in their place.
Would you switch places with Dallas right now if you could? I would.
They've been a heck of a lot smarter than we've been in how they've approached their team and keep fielding competitive ones that win the division or are in the mix right up until the end.
Dallas also leads the entire NFL in offensive yards... with that RB they took 4th overall and have now paid.
13 wins, 9 wins, 10 wins... and they'll win the division this year again.
Blueprint or not, they've been a heck of a lot better than us lately and have been embarrassing us on the field just the same.
+1 To say Elliot isn't a special player is just being a homer and a foolish one at that. (I hate him as much as any giants fan)
Seriously, do you pay attention to who has success in this league over the last 15 years?
Who has had sustained success the past 15 years to point to?
Even ignoring the Pats (who lo and behold selected a RB in the 1st round last year), the Rams who played them in the SB with a high first round pick at RB. The Steelers with a 2nd round pick anchoring their offense for several years. The Cowboys with Elliott. The examples of teams not having a RB drafted pretty high is shrinking.
But beyond that - what is the blueprint for success the past 15 years? Haven't most teams taken wildly different routes? The best correlation you'll find is having a QB on his rookie deal using up less of the cap, but then those pesky Pats refute that.
The whole cheap QB thing is nearly as widespread either. Going back 15 years?
The majority of those titles have been won by
Manning, Manning, Brees, Brady, Rodgers and Ben
The Hawks did it but then guess what? They paid Russ. That seems to be working pretty well!
Flacco and Foles seem to be a bit of an anomaly.
But to your point FatMan, total agreement. Outside of the Pats, where is "the plan" to point to for how to build?
Speaking of the Hawks two SB runs in 2013 and 2014 (one win, which should have been two if they had RUN the ball instead of passing it but I digress), didn't they have a 1st round, all pro (2013, 2014), who also led the NFL in rushing TD's both years (2013, 2014)? Did he contribute at all?
RE: RE: RE: Why do people always use Dallas as some kind of blueprint? Â
Tell me, what makes Elliott so special? Dalvin Cook was a second round pick running behind an OL inferior to Elliott's, but he's averaging almost a yard more per carry and run for more yards. Nick Chubb is another second round pick with a lesser OL and he's having a better season than Elliott.
2018, Elliott led the league in rushing yards....because he also led the league in rushing attempts. Wasn't in the top ten in either TDs or YPC.
Wow Greg, that's some insight, you found players selected in different rounds who are good. Congrats?
Someone earlier just listed the Giants Oline from the Super Bowl, no Quentin Nelsons there at #2 overall, so does that mean we should never look to upgrade the line with a top 3 pick?
Taking a great player at 2 was the goal and we succeeded. If the Giants still suck you should look elsewhere because Barkley isn't the reason why. We'd also still suck with Darnold. We likely still suck with Nelson. There's a larger issue here and I think its more to do with what we can't see than what we can see, but that isn't fun to post about because it isn't tangible so here we are.
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: Why do people always use Dallas as some kind of blueprint? Â
Could you imagine if we picked Barkley and the offense still struggled to score points as we limped to back to back 5-11 seasons? What a nightmare that would be.
Back to back 5-11 seasons actually sounds optimistic at this point.
Elliott was an all pro as a rookie and has lead the entire league in rushing in both of his healthy seasons. He's not just some guy along for the ride behind a dominant OL... their OL has had a bunch of injuries lately.
And yes, it's not all their offense... they have a good defense too.
How could that be possible if they drafted a RB in the top 5? Reading posts on this board, you'd think it was some sort of miracle.
If you draft well and don't waste cap dollars overpaying over the hill guys in free agency or guys who just flat suck, it's amazing what happens.
I fucking hate Dallas, but cmon.
Quote:
Who should they have drafted? Realistically. Not in the fantasy world that you live in.
Quenton Nelson, the same guy I said I wanted at the time.
"How could we pick an OG at #2???? This is the worst thing I've ever seen and I'm gonna repeat it in every thread."
- Greg
elite players aren't fungible. And average players at every position are fungible. That's why Nick Foles is fungible. Or today's version of Cam Newton. Or Eli. Wait a minute - QB's aren't supposed to be fungible!!
They won 11 games his rookie year... they're 4-2 right now with Kyle Allen playing QB. McCaffrey is clearly the best player on the entire offense.
Was he a bad draft pick?
Quote:
Gettleman's "great football resume", the one he always likes to remind us about, but I am certain I wouldn't have made this colossal mistake:
Keeping Eli.
Do you think that was a DG move? Honest question. If you do then yes, I'd been fine with the DG criticism for it but I for one don't think he had a choice.
And if that's the case then its just really hard to critique when that's been the biggest decision the franchise has faced in 15 years.
Here how I think it went with Eli.
In 2018, Gettleman was following marching orders from Mara to keep Eli. So I think that was out of his hands. And he wanted the job. Which required, IMV, committing to keep Eli as the QB.
Coming into this year? Different story. I think keeping Eli for 2019 was Gettleman's choice. He knew he was drafting a QB - essentially admitted it draft post-mortem - and envisioned Eli the mentor, the eventual baton passing, etc.
2018, Elliott led the league in rushing yards....because he also led the league in rushing attempts. Wasn't in the top ten in either TDs or YPC.
- Greg
Well, except for the fact that he was the pick I wanted. Other than that, you've really hit the nail on the head, Flounder.
Quote:
"How could we pick an OG at #2???? This is the worst thing I've ever seen and I'm gonna repeat it in every thread."
- Greg
Well, except for the fact that he was the pick I wanted. Other than that, you've really hit the nail on the head, Flounder.
You just like to complain.
Dallas was in a very different position in 2016 than the Giants were last year. They were coming off a 4-win season mainly because Romo was hurt. They were 12-4 the year prior, they had talent. You can make a luxury pick in that spot. The Giants did not have that luxury in 2018.
Because Barkley's skills will erode much faster than Chubb's. I don't think there's a person on this board that thinks Barkley isn't a fantastic player. The difference is that Chubb and Nelson are much more likely to anchor their positions for 5-10 years.
We are so fucking lucky to have such a back in SB..And now, we may have completed a “bifecta” with the drafting of DJ, but at the moment, too soon to know.
Seriously, do you pay attention to who has success in this league over the last 15 years?
You just don't need a great/transcendent RB to compete and win the biggest prizes. That part of the equation no longer applies. Hell, we proved it in 2008 and 2011.
It's just wiser to invest your limited cap dollars into other areas that are more critical for success.
The best way to play the RB game is to recycle to a new group every 2-3 years. And do it < the league average for the position.
They won 11 games his rookie year... they're 4-2 right now with Kyle Allen playing QB. McCaffrey is clearly the best player on the entire offense.
Was he a bad draft pick?
He's not such a bad pick for a team with a defense that's leading the league in sacks, a solid OL, and a stable QB situation (albeit by luck).
Because Barkley's skills will erode much faster than Chubb's. I don't think there's a person on this board that thinks Barkley isn't a fantastic player. The difference is that Chubb and Nelson are much more likely to anchor their positions for 5-10 years.
That's mostly right - in theory. Barkley could always break the mold. But even if he does it doesn't mean anything because RBs just don't have the same impact on winning anymore. Their win-share value is < than QBs, WRs, TEs, and Kickers.
Looked it up and it was Reggie Bush in 2009, and he wasn't more than a complementary piece to that offense.
And more mistakes are on the way. Next up are some big free agent contracts this offseason because we'll be "ready to compete" in 2020. After that will be making Barkley the highest paid back in the league.
The fun isn't over yet.
Quote:
Because Barkley's skills will erode much faster than Chubb's. I don't think there's a person on this board that thinks Barkley isn't a fantastic player. The difference is that Chubb and Nelson are much more likely to anchor their positions for 5-10 years.
That's mostly right - in theory. Barkley could always break the mold. But even if he does it doesn't mean anything because RBs just don't have the same impact on winning anymore. Their win-share value is < than QBs, WRs, TEs, and Kickers.
So only Punters are less valuable?
Who has had sustained success the past 15 years to point to?
Even ignoring the Pats (who lo and behold selected a RB in the 1st round last year), the Rams who played them in the SB with a high first round pick at RB. The Steelers with a 2nd round pick anchoring their offense for several years. The Cowboys with Elliott. The examples of teams not having a RB drafted pretty high is shrinking.
But beyond that - what is the blueprint for success the past 15 years? Haven't most teams taken wildly different routes? The best correlation you'll find is having a QB on his rookie deal using up less of the cap, but then those pesky Pats refute that.
We are so fucking lucky to have such a back in SB..And now, we may have completed a “bifecta” with the drafting of DJ, but at the moment, too soon to know.
you couldn't be more out of touch.
Quote:
Is McCaffrey also 'nothing special' ? Is it all the CAR OL that is making him look good.
They won 11 games his rookie year... they're 4-2 right now with Kyle Allen playing QB. McCaffrey is clearly the best player on the entire offense.
Was he a bad draft pick?
He's not such a bad pick for a team with a defense that's leading the league in sacks, a solid OL, and a stable QB situation (albeit by luck).
They knew they'd be leading the league in sacks in his 3rd season when they drafted him?
That's some impressive foresight!
Quote:
Seriously, do you pay attention to who has success in this league over the last 15 years?
Who has had sustained success the past 15 years to point to?
Even ignoring the Pats (who lo and behold selected a RB in the 1st round last year), the Rams who played them in the SB with a high first round pick at RB. The Steelers with a 2nd round pick anchoring their offense for several years. The Cowboys with Elliott. The examples of teams not having a RB drafted pretty high is shrinking.
But beyond that - what is the blueprint for success the past 15 years? Haven't most teams taken wildly different routes? The best correlation you'll find is having a QB on his rookie deal using up less of the cap, but then those pesky Pats refute that.
The whole cheap QB thing is nearly as widespread either. Going back 15 years?
The majority of those titles have been won by
Manning, Manning, Brees, Brady, Rodgers and Ben
The Hawks did it but then guess what? They paid Russ. That seems to be working pretty well!
Flacco and Foles seem to be a bit of an anomaly.
But to your point FatMan, total agreement. Outside of the Pats, where is "the plan" to point to for how to build?
But getting back to Darnold, he's got a very similar situation to DJ in that his Headcoach is a good QB whisperer but a bad HC. He's got a decent running back and ......does he have a tight end or a receiver equal to Even Engram or Shepard or Tate? I am in FMiC's camp of being sick of hearing how we should have drafted Darnold and not Barkley, but he's still got Mono, he's got no OL and old Goofy Eyes gave him one of the worst pep talks I've ever heard mid game. The hyperbole on this board and in the media as well is utterly ridiculous.
Looked it up and it was Reggie Bush in 2009, and he wasn't more than a complementary piece to that offense.
Who was the last SB champion to feature a top 10 OG or even a 1st round OG? Both SB teams from last season had 1st round RBs.
That's some impressive foresight!
Foresight? They were second in the league in sacks and had a good offensive line in place when he was drafted.
First round OGs to win a SB?
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They knew they'd be leading the league in sacks in his 3rd season when they drafted him?
That's some impressive foresight!
Foresight? They were second in the league in sacks and had a good offensive line in place when he was drafted.
In other words, they went and got the best playmaker they could get after those foundational pieces were in place.
James Carpenter, 2013 Seahawks
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They've won one playoff game in three seasons with Elliott. In 2017, when Elliott missed some games, their record with him was 6-4 and their record without him was 3-3. Alfred Morris' washed up ass actually had better numbers in his place.
Elliott is nothing special. He runs behind a great OL, that's all.
Elliott is an excellent player. I couldn't disagree more.
They haven't had a losing year since they drafted Elliott. They were 4-12 the year before they drafted him.
I'm pretty sure we'd be complaining a lot less if we were in their place.
Would you switch places with Dallas right now if you could? I would.
They've been a heck of a lot smarter than we've been in how they've approached their team and keep fielding competitive ones that win the division or are in the mix right up until the end.
Dallas also leads the entire NFL in offensive yards... with that RB they took 4th overall and have now paid.
13 wins, 9 wins, 10 wins... and they'll win the division this year again.
Blueprint or not, they've been a heck of a lot better than us lately and have been embarrassing us on the field just the same.
+1 To say Elliot isn't a special player is just being a homer and a foolish one at that. (I hate him as much as any giants fan)
Even more laughable because they then benched Eli after two games
But sure this team has direction...
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First round OGs to win a SB?
James Carpenter, 2013 Seahawks
Now top ten OGs to win a SB?
Quote:
Quote:
Seriously, do you pay attention to who has success in this league over the last 15 years?
Who has had sustained success the past 15 years to point to?
Even ignoring the Pats (who lo and behold selected a RB in the 1st round last year), the Rams who played them in the SB with a high first round pick at RB. The Steelers with a 2nd round pick anchoring their offense for several years. The Cowboys with Elliott. The examples of teams not having a RB drafted pretty high is shrinking.
But beyond that - what is the blueprint for success the past 15 years? Haven't most teams taken wildly different routes? The best correlation you'll find is having a QB on his rookie deal using up less of the cap, but then those pesky Pats refute that.
The whole cheap QB thing is nearly as widespread either. Going back 15 years?
The majority of those titles have been won by
Manning, Manning, Brees, Brady, Rodgers and Ben
The Hawks did it but then guess what? They paid Russ. That seems to be working pretty well!
Flacco and Foles seem to be a bit of an anomaly.
But to your point FatMan, total agreement. Outside of the Pats, where is "the plan" to point to for how to build?
Speaking of the Hawks two SB runs in 2013 and 2014 (one win, which should have been two if they had RUN the ball instead of passing it but I digress), didn't they have a 1st round, all pro (2013, 2014), who also led the NFL in rushing TD's both years (2013, 2014)? Did he contribute at all?
Explain to me what is special about him. Since it's so self-evident to some of you, it should be really easy, right?
Quote:
+1 To say Elliot isn't a special player is just being a homer and a foolish one at that. (I hate him as much as any giants fan)
Explain to me what is special about him. Since it's so self-evident to some of you, it should be really easy, right?
If you can’t see it, I guess it’s above your level of comprehension. I’m not biting...
Quote:
+1 To say Elliot isn't a special player is just being a homer and a foolish one at that. (I hate him as much as any giants fan)
Explain to me what is special about him. Since it's so self-evident to some of you, it should be really easy, right?
LOL. Christ what's next on the agenda? Are you really trying to debate that Elliott is a run of the mill back?
2018, Elliott led the league in rushing yards....because he also led the league in rushing attempts. Wasn't in the top ten in either TDs or YPC.
Wow Greg, that's some insight, you found players selected in different rounds who are good. Congrats?
Someone earlier just listed the Giants Oline from the Super Bowl, no Quentin Nelsons there at #2 overall, so does that mean we should never look to upgrade the line with a top 3 pick?
Taking a great player at 2 was the goal and we succeeded. If the Giants still suck you should look elsewhere because Barkley isn't the reason why. We'd also still suck with Darnold. We likely still suck with Nelson. There's a larger issue here and I think its more to do with what we can't see than what we can see, but that isn't fun to post about because it isn't tangible so here we are.
baaahahahahaha
He wasn't in the top ten in either YPC or TDs last year but sure, he's Jim Brown reincarnated.
Most overrated player in football.
Frederick 2013
Martin 2014
Any HC with a clue would have been get that crap outta here.........if I am Darnold I politely decline the offer too.
Darnold looked awful last night, just not results, but just mechanics. Everything was out of sync.
I also put part of it on the HC, where were the easy throws?
The guy averages 128 total yards and 0.85 TDs per game for his career. You can try to twist it however you want, but those are great numbers.
And that was the second first round pick by the Pats that year. They took Wynn with the higher pick.
The Pats have the luxury of taking a RB that high. We don't.
Back to back 5-11 seasons actually sounds optimistic at this point.
He wanted a tear-down. He got it. But is too damn impatient to see if it will work.
Maybe he wanted a smart tear down.