Barring the unforeseen the Giants will be entering this offseason with a top 5-ish draft pick and some money to spend in the free agent market. In that sense, we aren't all that far off from where we were in January 2018: a bad football team with opportunities for growth on the horizon.
However, there's one key difference between January 2018 and January 2020 - this time the decisions look like they'll be made in large part by two men squarely on the hot seat: Gettleman and Shurmur. Given their tenuous job situation, can we expect them to avoid a short term splurge at the expense of the long term?
When I think about this, there's a timeline that keeps playing out in my head, and it goes like this:
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December 2019
- Giants finish 5-11, both Gettleman and Shurmur keep their jobs
January-May 2020
-Giants spend big bucks to sign FAs (think Shaq Barrett, Jadeveon Clowney, Jack Conklin, AJ Green, Amari Cooper). -They also don't consider drafting a QB after all, they just drafted Jones
Fall 2020
- under Shurmur's inept coaching the Giants sputter to another 5-11 season
January 2021
- Gettleman and Shurmur are fired
- New GM and head coach are hired
January-May 2021
- New GM and head coach commence purging roster of contracts they don't want, resulting in significant dead money on cap
- New GM and head coach decide they don't like Daniel Jones and want their own QB
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Going through that scenario, the obvious question arises: why didn't we just fire Gettleman and Shurmur in January 2020?
Unless you believe that Shurmur can coach a team to something greater than 5-11, this story ends with Gettleman and Shurmur being fired. So why allow them the opportunity to make a bunch of desperate decisions in January-May 2020?
Thanks
Thanks
Eric Studesville
Steve Wilks
Shurmur
McDaniels
Patricia
Spagnuolo
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I'd love to see the Giants emulate what they're doing.
I know many on here believe that quality is better than quantity but I do not, especially when you hope to already have your QB and need talent all-over-the-place.
Not as long as we've been (and still are), sadly.
The Giants started this year both with their franchise QB and their QB of the future on the roster. The Giants might still match their win total.
The Giants willingly inflicted upon themselves the financial equivalent of Eli Manning tearing his Achilles in practice after week 2. The sheer stupidity of how they handled the QB position this spring can't be overstated.
This roster was rotten to the core.
This roster was rotten to the core.
And it's still really, really poor.
I do wonder if we bailed on McAdoo too soon. He likely won’t ever get another job and he did some things very badly. However, he was very high on Mahomes. He truly looked out for the best interest in the franchise when he knew Eli no longer had it. And, he pushed every right button in 2016.
Would keeping McAdoo for 2018 & 19 have been worse than what we have now?
- The Giants were in fine cap shape when he was hired
- This abhorrent "core" he inherited net him a 1st, 2 3rds, a 4th, a 5th, Zeitler and Peppers
- He acquired Ogletree, Solder, and Tate
- He extended Shepard
- He's had 4 first round picks, 2 in the top 6
- He's had 8 top 70 picks
- He chose 3 CBs -- then chose to keep Jenkins, who had a statistically atrocious season last year and pay him 15M
- He chose to pay a QB 17M after picking one in the top 6
- He's about to have another top 10 pick
- The Giants are back to being in fine cap shape
Believing this is a young team that will blossom is one thing, believing Gettleman was left some hole he's desperately digging out of is preposterous.
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I hope you're right.
I do wonder if we bailed on McAdoo too soon. He likely won’t ever get another job and he did some things very badly. However, he was very high on Mahomes. He truly looked out for the best interest in the franchise when he knew Eli no longer had it. And, he pushed every right button in 2016.
Would keeping McAdoo for 2018 & 19 have been worse than what we have now?
I'd rather have kept McAdoo and blown up the roster, which as Sneaker says was rotten to the core. McAdoo was a really good gameday coach in 2016, and he had a good gameplan going into the playoff game until Beckham & Co. ruined the start of that game. At least he showed that.
Has Shurmur shown anything positive? If he has, I don't see it.
I'd love to see the Giants emulate what they're doing.
Anybody notice the Niners run the ball a ton with 2 undrafted free agents and Tevin Coleman who they picked up in free agency this year for $10m/2 year deal.
just sayin'...
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The 2019 49ers are a team that runs the ball a ton, runs the ball pretty effectively, and leans on their top-flight defense.
I'd love to see the Giants emulate what they're doing.
Anybody notice the Niners run the ball a ton with 2 undrafted free agents and Tevin Coleman who they picked up in free agency this year for $10m/2 year deal.
just sayin'...
In year 3 Lynch has the 9ers turned around having roughly the same draft resources Gettleman has had in 2. Having roughly as bad as a team as Gettleman inherited.
Going into year 3, Gettleman will have had no less than 5 first round picks, likely 3 in the top 10. Likely 10 top 70 picks. But it's "year one" for him.
What fix would you have done coming out of '17?
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The 2019 49ers are a team that runs the ball a ton, runs the ball pretty effectively, and leans on their top-flight defense.
I'd love to see the Giants emulate what they're doing.
Anybody notice the Niners run the ball a ton with 2 undrafted free agents and Tevin Coleman who they picked up in free agency this year for $10m/2 year deal.
just sayin'...
Don't forget that they also paid McKinnon. He hasn't played because he got hurt in both camps so far. McKinnon's cap hit will be about the same as Barkley's next year.
SF is actually spending more money than we are on the RB position - they're just spread out more. I guess we can debate which strategy is better - they're running the ball more effectively than we are so far; but I'm not sure that's not more a symptom of the coach than the personnel.
2017 (no Andrew Luck) - 4-12, fires Pagano
2018 (Hires Reich and Luck returns) - 10-6 and a road playoff win
2019 (Luck retires on the eve of the season) - 4-2
He acquired Jacoby Brissett straight up for Phillip Dorsett. Anyone want to know how Brissett is performing this year?
65%, 14/3, 1388 yards, 101 QBR.
Combined this year and next Brissett is making only $7M more than Eli is this year, and they didn't need to spend the 6th pick overall for him.
The Colts went through Luck's sudden, catastrophic retirement and they aren't missing a beat. Are they blaming Ballard's predecessor? Did they need 3 years of bad football to turn around the roster before they could be "graded"?
No. They are actually adults.
Not taking a shot at you. Just making a quip on Gettleman.
FYI...York basically said Lynch and Shanahan were given the same type of 6 year contract. And they were in this for a long term solution...
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Losing Garropalo was the reason for them having one of the worst defenses in football last year?
Forget the QB - look at the difference in the defense. The QB isn't the architect behind this 6-0 start. He's not even playing particularly well.
Of course not - but you're playing the 'well look, they only won 4 games' game.
They were sending Nick Mullens out there at QB. They ended up 21st overall, with a decline in offensive production over the last 13 games so let's call it 23rd. This year, they're 11th offensively.
With their actual starting QB in the lineup, not only would the pressure on their D been significantly reduced but it's fair to assume they would have won a few more games.
The Giants are set to look just as bad on paper, if not worse, than last year.
I'm not bailing Gettleman out of this - it's possible he actually just agreed with Mara and wanted to give Eli another run at it. But, John Mara is where I keep arriving when I'm looking for the source of this mess the Giants have been in the midst of.
And that's why I'm skeptical that cleaning house again might not get us anywhere. If Gettleman and Shurmur go, who is going to be the loudest voice in the room when it comes to Gettleman's successor? Will that guy have full-autonomy to choose his own coach, etc?
If Mara fires Gettleman only to turn around and hire Kevin Abrams... we might end up in an even worse place than this.
These aren't necessarily reasons to retain the GM. Just points to consider.
Mara is indeed the problem because he has created this culture of clones. Everyone buys into the same philosophy. It's just one big echo chamber at Jints Central. Everyone is cut from the same cloth of thinking.
We hit on this last night. Abrams is the heir apparent. So it'll be more of the same whether or not DG goes now or ceremoniously passes the baton to KA.
By being a card carrying member of Jints Central and the "Giants Way", and hired by Accorsi, DG lost all credibility as an independent voice to truly shake up this organization. And that was the absolute last thing we needed after the Reese/Coughlin Era. Which was simply one card carrying member (Accorsi) handing off the another card carrying member (Reese). It's just way to incestuous at this point...
Until that process is broken, things will stay broken.
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I'm not bailing Gettleman out of this - it's possible he actually just agreed with Mara and wanted to give Eli another run at it. But, John Mara is where I keep arriving when I'm looking for the source of this mess the Giants have been in the midst of.
And that's why I'm skeptical that cleaning house again might not get us anywhere. If Gettleman and Shurmur go, who is going to be the loudest voice in the room when it comes to Gettleman's successor? Will that guy have full-autonomy to choose his own coach, etc?
If Mara fires Gettleman only to turn around and hire Kevin Abrams... we might end up in an even worse place than this.
These aren't necessarily reasons to retain the GM. Just points to consider.
Mara is indeed the problem because he has created this culture of clones. Everyone buys into the same philosophy. It's just one big echo chamber at Jints Central. Everyone is cut from the same cloth of thinking.
We hit on this last night. Abrams is the heir apparent. So it'll be more of the same whether or not DG goes now or ceremoniously passes the baton to KA.
By being a card carrying member of Jints Central and the "Giants Way", and hired by Accorsi, DG lost all credibility as an independent voice to truly shake up this organization. And that was the absolute last thing we needed after the Reese/Coughlin Era. Which was simply one card carrying member (Accorsi) handing off the another card carrying member (Reese). It's just way to incestuous at this point...
Until that process is broken, things will stay broken.
The Maras have how many Lombardis vs your idol Danny?
Would Giants fans be as receptive the next time around?
Would Giants fans be as receptive the next time around?
You know Mara. He loves loyalty and longevity. Abrams was likely the runner-up to DG for the job. So that's going to build equity for the next time. I don't wan to say it's a fait accompli, but it's probably damn close...
Would Giants fans be as receptive the next time around?
That isn’t going to work. I think that was the plan when they hired Gettleman, but you can’t do that if you’re not winning.
The Giants like stability at GM & they probably justified hiring Gettleman whose older because he could pass the torch to Abrams. But, they won’t be able to sell the move.
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Losing Garropalo was the reason for them having one of the worst defenses in football last year?
Forget the QB - look at the difference in the defense. The QB isn't the architect behind this 6-0 start. He's not even playing particularly well.
Of course not - but you're playing the 'well look, they only won 4 games' game.
They were sending Nick Mullens out there at QB. They ended up 21st overall, with a decline in offensive production over the last 13 games so let's call it 23rd. This year, they're 11th offensively.
With their actual starting QB in the lineup, not only would the pressure on their D been significantly reduced but it's fair to assume they would have won a few more games.
The Giants are set to look just as bad on paper, if not worse, than last year.
Mullens actually wasn't that bad. Was he appreciably worse than Garropolo has been so far this year? Garropolo has the largest cap hit on this year's team at nearly 20M. What if SF had used that money elsewhere and went cheaper @ QB?
The 49ers were also 1-2 with Garropolo last year before he got hurt - it's not like they were blowing the doors off anyone. I actually just don't think Garropolo is all that good, honestly. I think he's okay - I don't think he's worth what they paid him. I bet they'd still have at least 5 wins with Mullens playing QB right now with that defense - especially if they'd reinvested Garropolo's 20M cap hit elsewhere.
If you ask me, Brissett is actually better than Garropolo.
I think the QB is actually the worst part of their cap picture right now.
1. Gettleman hasn’t done a great job, but he hasn’t been awful - far better than Shurmur has been.
2. Shurmur is a disaster and we should move on.
There were just so many better avenues to pursue than what we've actually done since Gettleman took over.
1. Gettleman hasn’t done a great job, but he hasn’t been awful - far better than Shurmur has been.
2. Shurmur is a disaster and we should move on.
I would say yes, I agree with both points.
There were just so many better avenues to pursue than what we've actually done since Gettleman took over.
I don’t know why a team like the Bears haven’t inquired about Mullens (if he’s available).
- The Giants were in fine cap shape when he was hired
- This abhorrent "core" he inherited net him a 1st, 2 3rds, a 4th, a 5th, Zeitler and Peppers
- He acquired Ogletree, Solder, and Tate
- He extended Shepard
- He's had 4 first round picks, 2 in the top 6
- He's had 8 top 70 picks
- He chose 3 CBs -- then chose to keep Jenkins, who had a statistically atrocious season last year and pay him 15M
- He chose to pay a QB 17M after picking one in the top 6
- He's about to have another top 10 pick
- The Giants are back to being in fine cap shape
Believing this is a young team that will blossom is one thing, believing Gettleman was left some hole he's desperately digging out of is preposterous.
To be fair, Eli was paid BEFORE Jones was drafted. They may not have even decided on who they were going to draft or if they would even get Jones when that happened. You let Eli go, you signal to everyone you're drafting a QB, it decreases their chances of getting Jones because if another team really liked him, they would've traded ahead of the Giants for him if they had any inkling the Giants were interested. We'll never know for sure what would have went down, however.
Also, if you don't think Gettlemen took over an atrocious roster then I don't know what to tell you. The offense had been completely ineffective for a long time and the defense was run by a few players that were working off of bloated contracts and all showed poorly in 2017. Everyone was very happy to 'blow it up' after 2017, and some were upset that they waited until mid-2018 to do so.
I don't know what the answers are, but you can't keep blowing everything up every two years and hope that this time it'll work. But again, fuck if I know what should be done other than just keep drafting good players!
Right now, I think the defense is devoid of talent/too green and losing Connelly and pretty much the entire LB core all at once made any chance of being effective pretty much null. Betcher doesn't seem to know what to do to make it work which is worrisome. Same with the offense, rookie QB learning to play on top of losing all of the worthwhile skill players all at once is a recipe for disaster. The o-line looked pretty league-average the first few games. Once Barkley and others went out, defenses don't have to defend anything, they can just attack at will and with a rookie QB trying to be a superhero on top of that. I also don't think Shurmur should be a head coach and calling plays at the same time, he seems to not be able to handle it. If he suddenly has to give up play-calling duties at any point, like McAdoo did, consider him gone at the end of the season without a miraculous turnaround.
As far as the defense being talentless, who's to blame for it?
Can you genuinely say Gettleman hasn't had considerable draft and cap resources to invest in this defense? The only low resource guys starting are Mayo & Bethea.
Hill - GM 3rd round pick
Tomlinson - JR 2nd round pick
Lawrence - Gettleman 1st round pick
Carter - GM 3rd round pick
Golden - GM UFA
Ogletree - GM trade
Mayo - GM UFA
Peppers - GM trade
Bethea - GM UFA
Baker - GM 1st round pick
Jenkins - JR UFA
They've been screwed by poor officiating for at least 2 weeks in a row.
Baker, Connelly, Love, Ballentine, Lawrence, Ximines, and for all intents and purposes, Beal, are all rookies and most of those guys have shown at least some ability to be good players in the future. To a thinking person, that would indicate the Giants are a growing team that is making strides and on the right track. That's a lot of young talent to bring along on a defense and it's been 7 games.
Next year this defense will be a top 10 unit.
They've been screwed by poor officiating for at least 2 weeks in a row.
Baker, Connelly, Love, Ballentine, Lawrence, Ximines, and for all intents and purposes, Beal, are all rookies and most of those guys have shown at least some ability to be good players in the future. To a thinking person, that would indicate the Giants are a growing team that is making strides and on the right track. That's a lot of young talent to bring along on a defense and it's been 7 games.
Next year this defense will be a top 10 unit.
This sounds so much like what we've been hearing in the past, it's uncanny.
Remember last year when our offense was going to be great in 2019 because we scored some points after the season was essentially over? Those would be fun threads to read now.
Absolutely. Like I wrote on the other thread, we now have to hope that Williams develops into something he hasn't been to this point; we had to do the same thing with Vernon in 2016.
What's past is prologue. Williams is almost certainly going to be a building block player now.
One of Gettleman's first jobs was to clean out Reese's bad contracts. He did that, and is now replacing them with his own.
2020 is already likely a lost year. We're now creeping into 2021 and 2022.
I think for an owner whose obsessed with optics like Mara is, these next 2 games a huge for Shurmur:
National televised game hosting Dallas -if the Giants lose 35-10 with MetLife filled with Cowboys cheering followed by a loss to the Jets, we’ll have a new staff next year.
I expect this board will sound like the hilariously misled thread below come January.
The Giants' Offense is Gonna be Good in 2019!!! - ( New Window )