The time to make changes is now, and here's why

to this idea in that we get a coach and system jones can be with go forward. in addition to the fact pat shurmur is not the guy to turn this around.

Gettleman will not get canned yet is my guess but his free agency moves need to improve. We make the signings GoTerps listed and get a good hc and have a decent draft this team could be 10-6 or better.

We've got to make a change sooner rather than later.

If Gettleman is willing to part ways with players so easily, he should be willing to part ways with coaches. Right?

But I think we all fear the egos of ownership and management getting in the way.

whether Gettleman is the right man to lead this offseason. Given the likely high pick that we have, and all of the cap room, a bad offseason coming up will set us back another 3 or so years. If the Giants stink in 2020, it'll be harder for the new GM to clean things up than if we make the move after this season.

Most probable change will come at the coordinator position. Fire Bettcher or the OC Shula hell maybe both and Mara will than make Shurmur stop calling plays.
Gettlemans not going anywhere for the next 5 yrs unless he retires or god forbid........

That's part of my point. The GM and head coach have to be in lock step working together.

If we fire Shumur but keep Gettleman, we're now limiting our head coaching pool to guys interested in working under Gettleman, who might be gone in a year if things go badly.

It has to be Shurmur and Gettleman, not one or the other.

most likely go the route they did after 2006 when they forced coaching changes on Coughlin.

key jump in development generally occurs during their Sophomore season, is it really in the best interest of the franchise to set him back by learning a new system?

If we're making a complete overhaul I'd say we're more than likely punting on Jones. Is this wise? I don't know the answer but I think it needs to be in consideration.

the illusion of change, without actually fixing the problem.

Fire the assistants, which buys Shurmur another year (or two) all to get back to this same point in time when a lot of us realize Shurmur isn't the solution.

I do not believe Gettleman is going anywhere....unless he wants to.

And to be honest,

Not even sure the HC is on the hot seat....leading offense with a rookie QB.

The fans create a premise....that is based totally on speculation.

The defensive coaches might be feeling some heat.....depending on Shummur views that side of the ball.

Signing multiple high priced free agents this off season. Not on the cusp of winning and they will want to keep cap flexibility going forward. Maybe one high priced pass rusher, tops

Excuse the language but Shurmur seems like too much of a pussy to be a NFL coach. I want a tougher man to coach players. Doesn't need to be BIG or imposing but needs to be IN CHARGE. Shurmur reeks of soft to me. Being a coach in NY is a real load(see what I did there?) While Shurmur is definitely an adult, he isn't a BOSS.

That said, if he finishes without the players quitting he gets 2020. I would prefer a coach that can motivate and develop players. I would like coordinators that can give us a schematic advantage on some Sundays. I want some games where the coordinators find something that opposing teams have no answer for once in while.

In comment 14641203 give66 said:

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Signing multiple high priced free agents this off season. Not on the cusp of winning and they will want to keep cap flexibility going forward. Maybe one high priced pass rusher, tops

I wasn't suggesting they'll sign all those guys - just that those are some names they may be in the market for.

Because the only way your worst case scenario plays out is if Jones is a bust. If Jones shows he can play in the NFL, he's had flashes, he and Gettleman likely remain a part of this team beyond Shurmur's tenure.

In comment 14641189 Eric from BBI said:

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most likely go the route they did after 2006 when they forced coaching changes on Coughlin.

This is what I think is the most likely scenario. This is how Mara likes to operate. Sweeping, grandiose statements about needing to win followed by minor, incremental changes slowly over time.

The coordinators likely go at the end of 2019. Shurmur goes in 2020. Gettleman has to 2021. I'm not suggesting this is the right way to go (I don't believe it is), but it is what I expect from this owner.

but the one thing we agree on is Shurmur is no good. I'm not sure what else I'd do, but I know I'd fire him. It wasn't "just Cleveland", he's not a good coach.

That said, I have a very hard time believing that John Mara is going to fire a head coach after 2 seasons after firing a head coach after 2 seasons. Hell, I'm not even convinced Mara would have definitely fired McAdoo if not for the Eli-Geno Smith stuff.

I'm not saying this applies here, but when understanding how Mara works you have to realize that he came an inch away from firing a then embattled and yet to be 2-time Super Bowl winning head coach just one offseason before that head coach went on to win the first of the 2. Obviously Tom Coughlin can coach circles around Pat Shurmur, but that is important to remember in trying to understand why Mara is reluctant to give in to cries for change.

It's the right move, it's hard for me to see a franchise that's been so utterly resistant to change making a wholesale decision to part with DG and PS.

My hope for this season was that the Giants got a solid feel for Jones' potential. They will certainly have a large sample size by year's end, I would hope that is enough to know what they have under center. I would like to see Jones make a sizeable jump by December.

My guess is that if any wholesale adjustment occurs, it will take place at the end of the 2020 season, when the Giants would move on from Jones, PS, and DG at once. But that also seems unlikely.

The only way Shurmur is fired after 2021 is if the team has another 5-11 season or worse, like you said, but then his job performance would fairly be judged, unless something happens like Daniel Jones is forced to IR early in the season.

Shurmur's offense is very good, it's resulted in a lot of positive outcomes for this team from a statistical perspective. He's made some mistakes, but with a rookie QB I believe he's the right guy in the right place to develop him and get him to be a consistent winner.

What is much, much more likely, is that next season, and even late this season, you will see the Giants play better, and the Giants have a good chance of going 9-7 or better next year, when Gettleman has another offseason to address the holes on this roster, and Jones is a bit more seasoned and the game slows down a bit for him. Then all this hand-wringing will be moot and you will be enjoying the product on the field more.

In comment 14641209 giants#1 said:

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Because the only way your worst case scenario plays out is if Jones is a bust. If Jones shows he can play in the NFL, he's had flashes, he and Gettleman likely remain a part of this team beyond Shurmur's tenure.

I'm not writing off Jones. I'm saying that when (not if) Gettleman and Shurmur are fired there is a decent chance their successors may want to move in a different direction at quarterback. What if we're in the running for Trevor Lawrence in the 2021 draft after Shumur leads us to another bad year in 2020? Are we supposed to pass on him because we have Jones?

In comment 14641187 Go Terps said:

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That's part of my point. The GM and head coach have to be in lock step working together. If we fire Shumur but keep Gettleman, we're now limiting our head coaching pool to guys interested in working under Gettleman, who might be gone in a year if things go badly. It has to be Shurmur and Gettleman, not one or the other.

Not that I endorse following the Jets model, but didn't they just hire a HC and then get rid of the GM.

And what makes you think a potential coach wouldn't want to work with DG? Specifics please.

Giants don't improve next year, struggle to a 3-13 record, draft Trevor Lawrence, boom, we still win.

I want to take a moment to give you credit for one of your positions. I think if the Giants were to STOP giving out big FA contracts and instead give out a quantity of prove it one year contracts, hit on a few let them walk, accumulate comp picks, rinse repeat we could fix the franchise in a few years. It is solid. Very few players are ever worth their BIG contracts.

In comment 14641217 Go Terps said:

Quote:

In comment 14641209 giants#1 said: Quote: Because the only way your worst case scenario plays out is if Jones is a bust. If Jones shows he can play in the NFL, he's had flashes, he and Gettleman likely remain a part of this team beyond Shurmur's tenure. I'm not writing off Jones. I'm saying that when (not if) Gettleman and Shurmur are fired there is a decent chance their successors may want to move in a different direction at quarterback. What if we're in the running for Trevor Lawrence in the 2021 draft after Shumur leads us to another bad year in 2020? Are we supposed to pass on him because we have Jones?

Sorry, but if a new coach wants to go in a different direction at QB, it means Jones is a bust. Or that coach is an idiot, because quality NFL people know how hard it is to find a good QB.

In comment 14641220 giants#1 said:

Quote:

In comment 14641187 Go Terps said: Quote: That's part of my point. The GM and head coach have to be in lock step working together. If we fire Shumur but keep Gettleman, we're now limiting our head coaching pool to guys interested in working under Gettleman, who might be gone in a year if things go badly. It has to be Shurmur and Gettleman, not one or the other. Not that I endorse following the Jets model, but didn't they just hire a HC and then get rid of the GM. And what makes you think a potential coach wouldn't want to work with DG? Specifics please.

Because they might be interested in running a team like it's the 21st century?

Jokes aside, we're limiting our pool of potential candidates by pushing a GM on them. Not just that, it could be a major source of friction...the head coach will know that he and the GM are on different timelines with different job security - like what happened with the Jets. And now the Jets are a complete mess.

If we're going to maximize efficiency, the GM and head coach have to be tied at the hip and rowing in the same direction.

earlier because of the time involved in getting a GM in place and then continuing thereafter to get a HC. I believed it would be a 2 month process from hiring a committee until the HC and assistants were in place.

But your plan is solid but time consuming and has to be done in season, with the HC and GM still in place.

After Sunday I have belatedly seen the light. Bettcher is just awful and I do not know how he made the Cards so good. Cannot fathom how ever week the defense comes out totally unprepared and the team is behind the eight ball before the fans are seated (and until half time). Shurmur's game plan was atrocious. At least McGaughy is doing a good job.

Can you explain your timeline?

How are you getting this done under the noses of Gettleman and Shurmur?

In comment 14641215 allstarjim said:

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The only way Shurmur is fired after 2021 is if the team has another 5-11 season or worse, like you said, but then his job performance would fairly be judged, unless something happens like Daniel Jones is forced to IR early in the season. Shurmur's offense is very good, it's resulted in a lot of positive outcomes for this team from a statistical perspective. He's made some mistakes, but with a rookie QB I believe he's the right guy in the right place to develop him and get him to be a consistent winner. What is much, much more likely, is that next season, and even late this season, you will see the Giants play better, and the Giants have a good chance of going 9-7 or better next year, when Gettleman has another offseason to address the holes on this roster, and Jones is a bit more seasoned and the game slows down a bit for him. Then all this hand-wringing will be moot and you will be enjoying the product on the field more.

As of today, it looks like we are heading for 5-11 or worse.

Folks said Jerry Reese would never be fired. They also said Ben McAdoo would never be fired before the season was over. (I personally didn't see either happening).

My point? Everything is possible.

The coach has to go as soon as possible.

The problem with the premise of this thread is there's a 0% chance it actually happens now (or even after this season if we're including Gettleman)

We're back on a staggered path. The GM bought himself time with the QB, but the coach might not if the losing continues. So, then we're looking at the coach getting fired, but the same unreliable group of people in place to hire the next one.

Basically you're expecting John Mara to suddenly act completely out of character. He's not going to. He plays it safe with his guys - it would be stunning for him to turn around and dismiss Gettleman along with the coach 5 games into Daniel Jones' career.

The best thing we can realistically hope for is that Shurmur goes and that we get lucky with the next hire. That's unfortunately where we're at. I can't see any way Gettleman isn't the GM beyond this year unless he removes himself from that position.

I don't think they want to part with Shurmur. But, anything less than 5-11 and if the game management ineptitude continues, he needs to go so a new guy can get Jones ready for 2020.

Let's see what happens though, jury is still out.

In comment 14641215 allstarjim said:

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Shurmur's offense is very good, it's resulted in a lot of positive outcomes for this team from a statistical perspective. He's made some mistakes, but with a rookie QB I believe he's the right guy in the right place to develop him and get him to be a consistent winner.

What is your definition of very good? Bottom 10 in point/game; bottom 10 in yards/game; leading the league in turnovers. Last year was middle of the road in all categories. With the 'upgrades' to the offense this year we should not be taking a step back like that even with a rookie QB

I just don't think its realistic. I like DG, but its clear to me now after giving him every benefit of the doubt that Shurmur can't run a team. But I agree, both would need to go if we want the best HC available.

In comment 14641210 Mike from Ohio said:

Quote:

In comment 14641189 Eric from BBI said: Quote: most likely go the route they did after 2006 when they forced coaching changes on Coughlin. This is what I think is the most likely scenario. This is how Mara likes to operate. Sweeping, grandiose statements about needing to win followed by minor, incremental changes slowly over time. The coordinators likely go at the end of 2019. Shurmur goes in 2020. Gettleman has to 2021. I'm not suggesting this is the right way to go (I don't believe it is), but it is what I expect from this owner.

Problem here is (1) Shurmur would have to accept giving up play calling, (2) Shurmur may have to accept firing both coordinators, and (3) we're still stuck with Shurmur's atrocious game management skills.

I'm going to address this in my game preview, but I hate attacking the guy because he seems like a nice man who is really trying hard. But it didn't work for him in Cleveland. And it's not working for him here. And I agree with those who said this week that the media appears to be getting under his skin.

and firing Shurmur. The other way around is a problem.

Gettleman's 2 year track record here is not nearly as bad as it's made out to be.

What I would say is if BB (obviously), Saban or any other big fish want in without Gettleman here, he can go as well, but it's not necessary. Shurmur is.

if they make a coaching change or if they force Shurmur to have an OC call plays going forward. Not sure in-game coaching is his forte.

which will cause them to hesitant on changes after this season. Bettcher and others could be the fall guys, but they all have the convenient excuse of a deeply flawed roster under construction.

I'd clean house. I expect half measures from NYG.

In comment 14641232 section125 said:

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earlier because of the time involved in getting a GM in place and then continuing thereafter to get a HC. I believed it would be a 2 month process from hiring a committee until the HC and assistants were in place. But your plan is solid but time consuming and has to be done in season, with the HC and GM still in place. After Sunday I have belatedly seen the light. Bettcher is just awful and I do not know how he made the Cards so good. Cannot fathom how ever week the defense comes out totally unprepared and the team is behind the eight ball before the fans are seated (and until half time). Shurmur's game plan was atrocious. At least McGaughy is doing a good job. Can you explain your timeline? How are you getting this done under the noses of Gettleman and Shurmur?

Once the decision has been made to move on from Gettleman and Shurmur, hiding anything from them is irrelevant. The first decision is to move on from those two.

Once that's done, Mara and Tisch need a full course on best practices for running a front office in today's NFL. How he wants to do that is up to him - he's got the contacts to do it. If I were him and had his contacts, I'd hire two or three independently operating contractors to put together a full report outlining best practices on the following:

1. Front office structure - how do the GM and head coach operate?
2. How best to manage the salary cap to create a sustainable talent pipeline, especially in light of the upcoming CBA
3. Scouting college talent
4. Scouting pro talent
5. Incorporating data analytics into real time in game decision making

I'd have each report include a list of GM and HC candidates (or, if applicable, people to hold both jobs). Those lists would guide the interview process in January.

Once the front office and coaching staff is in place, everyone from the owners to the equipment managers get trained on the information in those reports.

If I were Mara I'd start this process today. He's got the contacts...now's the time to use them.

Of the last cycle.

After this season, ownership forces Shurmur to change his staff or give up playcalling. He gets 1 more year, then they let him go.

I think cutting bait and not having a plan in place would keep us in the downward spiral we have been in. At some point you have to have stability and keep a guy for 4 years or longer or you become those franchises that never win.

I really think we have to let Shurmur and DG have 1 - 2 more seasons. DG will have the real FA money to spend, the 1st drafted players from 2018 will either prove their worth and that the draft was actually good or they will fail to progress. I think 3 years is a good basis point that the team is either moving in the right direction or its not.

1st year we had to tear it down, 2nd year find the new QB and continue to build the foundation and year 3 add FAs to the foundation and continue with the solid drafts. the problem I see right now is DGs 1st draft is looking like it wasnt as good as we all thought. His FAs have not worked out but aside from Solder he wasn't shopping for the top players.

teams of the past that have turned it around in 1 -2 seasons had players in place. When we got rid of Fassel we had a solid base of veteran players to build upon. Right now we have almost none. how many players on the roster are in their 2nd contract?

.

I mentioned on a different thread that I see Shurmur going the route of Jim Fassel. Just as we are ready to bury him, he will come up with a playoff run and save his job. And then get more mediocrity and be ready to fire him and he goes on another little run for a playoff spot. This will keep him going, but the Giants won't win a championship with this guy.

I fully expect them to splurge next year in Free Agency, but I actually see them going something like 10-6 next year and making the playoffs.

And I think like Eric said, he's going to serve up Bettcher at the end of the season. And perhaps they make him give up playcalling duties to Shula. But unless he loses the team, I don't think the Giants fire him, even though I don't think he's going to win anything here.

at his job that Shurmur ever will be.

Unfortunately, you can't just get rid of one without the other, IMO. DG hired Shurmur, so when Shurmur goes, so should DG.

Bettcher.

And it would be well deserved

But it unfortunately will never happen with this owner

I can't see Shurmur coaching a winning team. From day one he has looked like the worst coach I've seen the Giants have in 34 years as a fan. I don't think any level of talent is going to overcome a complete lack of management ability on Sundays. Even if the Giants nail every free agent and draft pick, I think they're a 5-11 team with Shurmur at the helm in 2020.

A team built on free agent spending sprees is just a house of cards.

In comment 14641272 Matt in SGS said:

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I mentioned on a different thread that I see Shurmur going the route of Jim Fassel. Just as we are ready to bury him, he will come up with a playoff run and save his job. And then get more mediocrity and be ready to fire him and he goes on another little run for a playoff spot. This will keep him going, but the Giants won't win a championship with this guy. I fully expect them to splurge next year in Free Agency, but I actually see them going something like 10-6 next year and making the playoffs. And I think like Eric said, he's going to serve up Bettcher at the end of the season. And perhaps they make him give up playcalling duties to Shula. But unless he loses the team, I don't think the Giants fire him, even though I don't think he's going to win anything here.

I don't see it. I agree with Go Terps. He doesn't have a feel for this, not as HC. For all his warts, Fassel got the Giants to the playoffs three times, including one Super Bowl appearance. Shurmur will never get a whiff of any of that.

And I'd take Fassel right now over him.

for the next 10+ years regardless of who is the coach. All he needs is a functional OL (run & pass block) and a thought out, professional game plan. I'm not seeing much from PS but leave the kid out of the equation, he's not a factor.

do you pull the plug on Gettleman after 2020 if things continue to go sideways next year? In 2020, do we keep the 2nd year head coach or do we start fresh there again which would give us our 3rd head coach in 4 years?

Things get really messy in hurry, especially with a 2nd year QB, if you flush out half of management after this year with the other half of management on the hotseat. Personally, I agree with the thinking that they should backchannel interest to a couple of longshot dream candidates (ie. Belichick) and barring interest from one of them, press forward with Shurmur under the stipulation that he delegate some gameday responsibilities. If things aren't turned around by 2020, you pull the plug on the whole thing. I'm very much against a staggered approach barring extraordinary conditions.

In comment 14641293 Eric from BBI said:

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And I'd take Fassel right now over him.

Despite his faults, Fassel did have that sweaty lipped beady eyed weasel WILINESS that many of the good NFL coaches have and Shumer lacks.

He’s found some quality players later in the draft which is extremely hard to do. Look at the rest of the league and Reese’s record here. Hell look at Reese’s record after round 1. His drafts will pay dividends down the road. I don’t think it’s appropriate to consider canning him at this point.

Shurmur has to go. I think people around here would feel a lot better about the current and future state of the Giants if they had a coach who provided an advantage over the opposition week to week. This team would be 3-4 or 4-3 right now and right in the thick of it off better coaching alone.

God forbid we do something bold or innovative.

I don't see DG going anyway. Sure, some of the free agents have not worked out but I really think most were with the intent to field the best possible team short term with Eli to appease Mara. He also has a VERY long and good track record with the Giants.

Drafts have been good and while Carter, Hill may not be plus players they can at minimum be high quality depth...this is important for championship teams.

Mara has stated he has been very please with the last two drafts. I do not think DG spends all the money next year either. Sensible signings, keep building pipeline/competition through draft, FA, and UFA. Keep adding good football players.

In the grand scheme of things you hope Jones is ready to make a deep run years 3-5.

Regarding Shurmur, I would move on. He will not get this team over the hump imo and is not anywhere near Fassel as a motivator or selector of staff. I think as the heat gets turned up him he may very well crumble which will force Mara's hand.

In comment 14641330 Lines of Scrimmage said:

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I don't see DG going anyway. Sure, some of the free agents have not worked out but I really think most were with the intent to field the best possible team short term with Eli to appease Mara. He also has a VERY long and good track record with the Giants. Drafts have been good and while Carter, Hill may not be plus players they can at minimum be high quality depth...this is important for championship teams. Mara has stated he has been very please with the last two drafts. I do not think DG spends all the money next year either. Sensible signings, keep building pipeline/competition through draft, FA, and UFA. Keep adding good football players. In the grand scheme of things you hope Jones is ready to make a deep run years 3-5. Regarding Shurmur, I would move on. He will not get this team over the hump imo and is not anywhere near Fassel as a motivator or selector of staff. I think as the heat gets turned up him he may very well crumble which will force Mara's hand.

I think this is pretty spot on.

was directed more towards the Shurmur but not DG crowd. It's all or nothing IMO. This includes any coordinator changes as well.

I'm not thrilled with the coach or GM right now but am still inclined to give them their 3 years (a lot depends on the rest of the season). I'd rank my preferences as 3 years sweeping changes > 2 years sweeping changes > staggered accountability. I genuinely think the worst thing they can do this offseason is play the scapegoat game.

Coughling was hired by the Duke.

thanks. I do think the "office and operating guidelines" part can be done at anytime without necessarily firing GM and HC ahead of time. Like writing a procedure manual with employees in place. I'd certainly get that part done first.
I'm not as adverse to DG as I am to the coaching. But what, has he hit on FAs less than 50%. I think his drafting is good, meaning he identifies quality players. We may disagree on which position was drafted, but the guys he has chosen appear to be better than we have seen in half a decade prior.

the Giants will remain a laughing stock. Until the Tisch's or a fan revolt removes him from that spot it's going to remain the 1970's for the Giants.

Don't tell me it's just a title and no one really knows what he does. He's one of the owners and in pretty much the most important spot in a football organization. If he's doing nothing it's showing. If he's actively picking players it's showing.

The Giants need to hire someone in that spot that has earned it not inherited it and knows what he's doing. Chris Mara has absolutely no qualifications, no proven track track, nothing except his last name to be in that spot.

Setting aside that I'm not sure these two drafts have been all that great, Gettleman's had his hand in three massive gaffes:

1. Hiring Shurmur
2. Signing Beckham
3. Keeping Eli when he TWICE could have let him walk for cap savings

Shurmur has been an atrocity at coach, but it's not like Gettleman's done a good job either.

And again, the GM and head coach should sink or swim together.

I think Gettleman is way past his expiration date and a major reason the team stinks. But more likely than not he has the least amount of autonomy of any GM in the NFL.

Assuming they go say 6-10 or worse again (they will) this season. You just fired McAdoo and he went 11-5 year one and made the playoffs. Shurmur’s team is not competitive.

My fear is that Mara will not make the required changes simply because he wants to avoid the perception that the team can’t get it right or fires coaches quickly.

Remember, McAdoo was not fired because of his record. He was fired because he benched Eli Manning unceremoniously and there was a negative backlash.

Mara is a status quo guy. I would be shocked if Shurmur doesn’t get another year, although I completely agree with the original premise that this is a crucial period and is absolutely the time to clean house and try again.

I don’t think Mara has the fortitude to make that call. Worse, I don’t think he has a fucking clue what to do next. Whatever Accorsi tells him I guess.

In comment 14641346 Go Terps said:

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Setting aside that I'm not sure these two drafts have been all that great, Gettleman's had his hand in three massive gaffes: 1. Hiring Shurmur 2. Signing Beckham 3. Keeping Eli when he TWICE could have let him walk for cap savings Shurmur has been an atrocity at coach, but it's not like Gettleman's done a good job either. And again, the GM and head coach should sink or swim together.

I think 2 and 3 were ownership decisions.

In comment 14641233 Eric from BBI said:

Quote:

In comment 14641215 allstarjim said: Quote: The only way Shurmur is fired after 2021 is if the team has another 5-11 season or worse, like you said, but then his job performance would fairly be judged, unless something happens like Daniel Jones is forced to IR early in the season. Shurmur's offense is very good, it's resulted in a lot of positive outcomes for this team from a statistical perspective. He's made some mistakes, but with a rookie QB I believe he's the right guy in the right place to develop him and get him to be a consistent winner. What is much, much more likely, is that next season, and even late this season, you will see the Giants play better, and the Giants have a good chance of going 9-7 or better next year, when Gettleman has another offseason to address the holes on this roster, and Jones is a bit more seasoned and the game slows down a bit for him. Then all this hand-wringing will be moot and you will be enjoying the product on the field more. As of today, it looks like we are heading for 5-11 or worse. Folks said Jerry Reese would never be fired. They also said Ben McAdoo would never be fired before the season was over. (I personally didn't see either happening). My point? Everything is possible.

5-11 or worse was for the 2020 season. I don't think there's any chance Gettleman and/or Shurmur are fired before the conclusion of the 2020 season.

In comment 14641352 Chris684 said:

Quote:

In comment 14641346 Go Terps said: Quote: Setting aside that I'm not sure these two drafts have been all that great, Gettleman's had his hand in three massive gaffes: 1. Hiring Shurmur 2. Signing Beckham 3. Keeping Eli when he TWICE could have let him walk for cap savings Shurmur has been an atrocity at coach, but it's not like Gettleman's done a good job either. And again, the GM and head coach should sink or swim together. I think 2 and 3 were ownership decisions.

We've heard that Shurmur convinced Gettleman to keep Beckham. And yeah Eli was definitely ownership, but part of Gettleman's job is to keep ownership from making those types of mistakes. He failed.

I'm with Terps on this.

I just don't expect the Giants to be this forward thinking.

I think we are stuck with both for another year. Shurmur is forced to replace some staff. And we are looking at new hires in 2020.

But on the bright side, we will be in the hunt for Trevor Lawrence!

In comment 14641350 Oscar said:

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Assuming they go say 6-10 or worse again (they will) this season. You just fired McAdoo and he went 11-5 year one and made the playoffs. Shurmur’s team is not competitive. My fear is that Mara will not make the required changes simply because he wants to avoid the perception that the team can’t get it right or fires coaches quickly. Remember, McAdoo was not fired because of his record. He was fired because he benched Eli Manning unceremoniously and there was a negative backlash. Mara is a status quo guy. I would be shocked if Shurmur doesn’t get another year, although I completely agree with the original premise that this is a crucial period and is absolutely the time to clean house and try again. I don’t think Mara has the fortitude to make that call. Worse, I don’t think he has a fucking clue what to do next. Whatever Accorsi tells him I guess.

McAdoo went 11-5 on the back of Spags' defense with Landon Collins having his career year. The offense even in that season was a complete and total dumpster fire. McAdoo was supposed to change that. His offense stuck out loud both years he was here, and just for Shurmur's improvements and contrast to McAdoo, you can easily see Shurmur is a much, much better coach. If you go back and look at the scoring that year, we won with just our defense being so dominant, even when the offense was completely shitting the bed.

The last time the Giants GM hired a coach was when George Young hired Faseel.

Wellington hired Coughlin. His sons hired McAdoo & Shurmur.

The Mara bros will either keep Shurmur or hire the next coach too. I'm sure Gettleman will get an ask, just like Ernie got an ask and said no way when Coughlin was hired and then Wellington hired him anyway.

The Mara bros will decide what they want to do about Shurmur and they'll let Gentleman talk to the media to explain it like it was his idea. It's what they do.

I would can both today if I could, but unfortunately that’s not how the NYG operate.

.

In comment 14641346 Go Terps said:

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Setting aside that I'm not sure these two drafts have been all that great, Gettleman's had his hand in three massive gaffes: 1. Hiring Shurmur 2. Signing Beckham 3. Keeping Eli when he TWICE could have let him walk for cap savings Shurmur has been an atrocity at coach, but it's not like Gettleman's done a good job either. And again, the GM and head coach should sink or swim together.

The Beckham signing led to a trade that greatly improved the team.

In comment 14641290 Eric from BBI said:

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In comment 14641272 Matt in SGS said: Quote: I mentioned on a different thread that I see Shurmur going the route of Jim Fassel. Just as we are ready to bury him, he will come up with a playoff run and save his job. And then get more mediocrity and be ready to fire him and he goes on another little run for a playoff spot. This will keep him going, but the Giants won't win a championship with this guy. I fully expect them to splurge next year in Free Agency, but I actually see them going something like 10-6 next year and making the playoffs. And I think like Eric said, he's going to serve up Bettcher at the end of the season. And perhaps they make him give up playcalling duties to Shula. But unless he loses the team, I don't think the Giants fire him, even though I don't think he's going to win anything here. I don't see it. I agree with Go Terps. He doesn't have a feel for this, not as HC. For all his warts, Fassel got the Giants to the playoffs three times, including one Super Bowl appearance. Shurmur will never get a whiff of any of that.

I see Shurmur as Poor Man's Norv Turner. He's a competent offensive coordinator who isn't a head coach. I wasn't wowed by him when he was hired other than being the guy before The Guy. But after watching the Mara's for 40 years, I think we know how this will go. You need to show Handley or McAdoo levels of incompetence in order to get fired after 2 years. And their issue wasn't x's and o's (if anything Parcells said that Handley was a human computer on his staff and thought he was going to be a great coach). Their issue was their teams were in open revolt against them, the media smelled blood and the fans turned on them which forced the Giants hand.

Shurmur comes from a football family, he's been around the NFL. So I don't expect a flameout like McAdoo/Handley. His future is tied to Jones. If Jones plays better in December, you better believe he's coming back.

But the signs are there to throw Bettcher out, even to save Shurmur's job. Remember in January the Giants tried to hire the Jets' DC Kacy Rodgers for some amorphous "senior defensive advisor" role and he turned them down and went to Tampa. To me that was very strange to have him there in that role, and it seemed to me to be a case where the Giants wanted to get an inhouse replacement ready.

If I had to guess right now, I still think that Shurmur is back next year. He gets the Fassel "make the playoffs or you're fired" threat over his head in 2020. But to show that he will make adjustments, he will fire Bettcher for someone and the Giants might force him to let Shula call plays. Like I said, I have no faith in Shurmur bringing the Giants anywhere and even if he makes the playoffs, he will be one and done.

In comment 14641231 Go Terps said:

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In comment 14641220 giants#1 said: Quote: In comment 14641187 Go Terps said: Quote: That's part of my point. The GM and head coach have to be in lock step working together. If we fire Shumur but keep Gettleman, we're now limiting our head coaching pool to guys interested in working under Gettleman, who might be gone in a year if things go badly. It has to be Shurmur and Gettleman, not one or the other. Not that I endorse following the Jets model, but didn't they just hire a HC and then get rid of the GM. And what makes you think a potential coach wouldn't want to work with DG? Specifics please. Because they might be interested in running a team like it's the 21st century? Jokes aside, we're limiting our pool of potential candidates by pushing a GM on them. Not just that, it could be a major source of friction...the head coach will know that he and the GM are on different timelines with different job security - like what happened with the Jets. And now the Jets are a complete mess. If we're going to maximize efficiency, the GM and head coach have to be tied at the hip and rowing in the same direction.

You keep saying things like this. I keep asking you specifically why do you believe the Giants have been left behind with respect to the modern NFL?

In comment 14641357 Go Terps said:

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In comment 14641352 Chris684 said: Quote: In comment 14641346 Go Terps said: Quote: Setting aside that I'm not sure these two drafts have been all that great, Gettleman's had his hand in three massive gaffes: 1. Hiring Shurmur 2. Signing Beckham 3. Keeping Eli when he TWICE could have let him walk for cap savings Shurmur has been an atrocity at coach, but it's not like Gettleman's done a good job either. And again, the GM and head coach should sink or swim together. I think 2 and 3 were ownership decisions. We've heard that Shurmur convinced Gettleman to keep Beckham. And yeah Eli was definitely ownership, but part of Gettleman's job is to keep ownership from making those types of mistakes. He failed.

Mara was basically negotiating in public with Beckham's people in the 2018 offseason. The decision to sign and later trade him, I have no doubt came from ownership.

As far as a GM telling an owner what to do? Good luck.

In comment 14641364 allstarjim said:

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In comment 14641346 Go Terps said: Quote: Setting aside that I'm not sure these two drafts have been all that great, Gettleman's had his hand in three massive gaffes: 1. Hiring Shurmur 2. Signing Beckham 3. Keeping Eli when he TWICE could have let him walk for cap savings Shurmur has been an atrocity at coach, but it's not like Gettleman's done a good job either. And again, the GM and head coach should sink or swim together. The Beckham signing led to a trade that greatly improved the team.

The trade should have happened before he was signed. And I don't see this team as greatly improved.

Based on the complete turnover of the roster the last 2 years. And to be fair, look at the number of rookies and 1st year players that are on the field playing meaningful minutes. If these are the right players to build around, the playing time will bare fruit in the future. Right or wrong, the Giants are committed to this and we have to hope it works out.

Yup, as I said above, my predictions:

Shurmur stays but has to give up play calling and one or both coordinators.

But in October 2020, you and I are having the same conversation.

I think we're going to be playing games like this for about as long as John Mara is at the top of this chain, unfortunately.

That's where the real problem is.

The guy has no balls and is far too concerned with what outside voices are saying. I don't think he really has any idea what to look for so he just keeps going back to his old rolodex.

Gettleman hasn't been a disaster so far - there's good and bad. But, it's become abundantly clear that the coach is just... not good.

It's unrealistic enough as it is to think that Mara is going to clean house a year and a half in when Daniel Jones has started just 5 games - it becomes even more unrealistic to then expect him to completely change his ways of thinking and entrust an out of the box hire.

The Giants are in a bad place right now - but I think this bad place can get worse if we start playing musical chairs with the entire staff every 2 years.

I'd be more in favor of canning Gettleman if I had any faith in the replacement being better. I'm actually afraid Mara could potentially hire someone even worse.

Firing the coach is more realistic. In-season, no... I don't think they'll do that for a 2nd time in 3 years. But after the year, if this is another 5 win season... I could see it.

I just can't see Gettleman getting walking papers after 14 games of Daniel Jones... unless Jones starts to look so bad that we start wondering whether or not he's even the right guy.

will unfortunately keep their jobs. So while I would certainly subscribe to the house cleaning idea, Mara is just too loyal to Accorsi, who recommended Gettleman, who hired Shurmur.

At the very least, they need to fire Betcher, Hal Hunter, and Shula. Which I think actually has a chance of happening. Remove that layer of unimpressive coaching and get back into the market for better assistants. Why Hal Hunter was even hired is one of the all-time perplexing, dumb decisions.

For example, let's spend some money on Rex Ryan instead of free agents. He can develop and coach defense. The apple certainly didn't fall too far from Buddy's tree...

unless we're talking coaches that also want to be GM.

I'm saying that as a guy who thinks we should probably move on from him.

We're still a storied franchise with patient owners (to a fault) and a young quarterback who has flashed promise. The latter fact alone makes us an attractive destination because QB is the number one factor in whether or not a HC gets a second contract.

Wellington had like 10 kids I would think they all have a piece of the team. Yes they are all wealthy but not like the Tisch's or many of the other owners.

Firing HC's and staff is a big expense and they are still paying Hair Gel. Hopefully this does not factor.

They brought Eli back to compete in 2019. That is the bar against which they should be measured. To move the goalposts now is unfair.

I said it back in March when they paid Eli's bonus: want to bring Eli back? Fine. Go win games.

In comment 14641373 Eric from BBI said:

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Yup, as I said above, my predictions: Shurmur stays but has to give up play calling and one or both coordinators. But in October 2020, you and I are having the same conversation.

I can see it going that way, but I feel like one key difference between Shurmur and Coughlin is that Shurmur hasn't won dick as a HC, here or anywhere previous. Coughlin had reached the AFC Championship game with another team and had two wild card appearances (one 11 win season) with the Giants.

In comment 14641377 bw in dc said:

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will unfortunately keep their jobs. So while I would certainly subscribe to the house cleaning idea, Mara is just too loyal to Accorsi, who recommended Gettleman, who hired Shurmur. At the very least, they need to fire Betcher, Hal Hunter, and Shula. Which I think actually has a chance of happening. Remove that layer of unimpressive coaching and get back into the market for better assistants. Why Hal Hunter was even hired is one of the all-time perplexing, dumb decisions. For example, let's spend some money on Rex Ryan instead of free agents. He can develop and coach defense. The apple certainly didn't fall too far from Buddy's tree...

Shurmur couldn't hold the team with Rex in the building.

In comment 14641373 Eric from BBI said:

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Yup, as I said above, my predictions: Shurmur stays but has to give up play calling and one or both coordinators. But in October 2020, you and I are having the same conversation.

Really hope not Eric. He does not have the resume for this imo and I think this would really hurt his credibility with the players without having had success as a HC

In comment 14641381 Go Terps said:

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They brought Eli back to compete in 2019. That is the bar against which they should be measured. To move the goalposts now is unfair. I said it back in March when they paid Eli's bonus: want to bring Eli back? Fine. Go win games.

Yeah the problem with that is how much of that was Gettleman’s call and how much of it was the Mara brothers?

As long as Chris is in the FO, accountability will always be murky.

In comment 14641381 Go Terps said:

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They brought Eli back to compete in 2019. That is the bar against which they should be measured. To move the goalposts now is unfair. I said it back in March when they paid Eli's bonus: want to bring Eli back? Fine. Go win games.

1000 percent agreement!

In comment 14641373 Eric from BBI said:

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Yup, as I said above, my predictions: Shurmur stays but has to give up play calling and one or both coordinators. But in October 2020, you and I are having the same conversation.

Sounds about right.

In comment 14641389 Thegratefulhead said:

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In comment 14641377 bw in dc said: Quote: will unfortunately keep their jobs. So while I would certainly subscribe to the house cleaning idea, Mara is just too loyal to Accorsi, who recommended Gettleman, who hired Shurmur. At the very least, they need to fire Betcher, Hal Hunter, and Shula. Which I think actually has a chance of happening. Remove that layer of unimpressive coaching and get back into the market for better assistants. Why Hal Hunter was even hired is one of the all-time perplexing, dumb decisions. For example, let's spend some money on Rex Ryan instead of free agents. He can develop and coach defense. The apple certainly didn't fall too far from Buddy's tree... Shurmur couldn't hold the team with Rex in the building.

I thought about that. But he really likes Daniel Jones and his future. So he may supportive of the offense, and not let it get to the point where it's a house divided...

In comment 14641410 ron mexico said:

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In comment 14641381 Go Terps said: Quote: They brought Eli back to compete in 2019. That is the bar against which they should be measured. To move the goalposts now is unfair. I said it back in March when they paid Eli's bonus: want to bring Eli back? Fine. Go win games. Yeah the problem with that is how much of that was Gettleman’s call and how much of it was the Mara brothers? As long as Chris is in the FO, accountability will always be murky.

Yep. That's the problem.

How accountable can we hold Gettleman for the Eli decision without knowing how much of it was in his hands.

In comment 14641410 ron mexico said:

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Yeah the problem with that is how much of that was Gettleman’s call and how much of it was the Mara brothers? As long as Chris is in the FO, accountability will always be murky.

I think DG and Mara were co-invested in the decision to keep Eli.

Mara because of the obvious reasons. And Gettleman because he sketched out how Eli could help with the QB they were going to draft. And maybe DG thought he built enough to maybe catch lightening in a bottle one more time.

That always seems to be one of the chapters in the "Giants Way". Pray that the football gods give you another crack at it. Alas, they haven't recognized they spent all of that capital in 2008 and 2011.

George Young - 9 years as GM before retiring and passing the torch to Ernie Accorsi.

Ernie Accorsi - 9 years as GM before retiring and passing the torch to Jerry Reese.

Jerry Reese - 11 years as GM before he was fired and Mara picked a former Assistant GM, Gettleman.

Before Gettleman hiring, that's 29 years of Giants' GMs and Reese was the only one who was fired. And don't forget that the Giants kept Reese for 11 years and two years after TC was fired.

I agree with those that say this year they will fire the DC and/or the OC...and next year will be the year they fire Shurmur. But I just don't see them making a move with Gettleman this year or next, unless they force "voluntary" retirement on him. (Don't forget that at 68, DG is the oldest GM in Giants history.)

In comment 14641240 Rong5611 said:

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I don't think they want to part with Shurmur. But, anything less than 5-11 and if the game management ineptitude continues, he needs to go so a new guy can get Jones ready for 2020. Let's see what happens though, jury is still out.

The jury is still out? How many times does he have to punt on 4th down when he should go for it and go for it on 4th down when he should punt it? How many timeouts does he need to blow on dopey coach's challenges? How many timeouts does he need to take with him into the locker room at halftime? How many times does he have to abandon the running game with Saquon Freaking Barkley on his roster? How many roster spots does he need to save for the Tanneys, Stupars, and Hillimans of the world?

The jury is IN -- Shurmur is the worst Giants head coach since Ray Handley.

he needs to beat Dallas and at least split with Philly. If he does this bring him back.

Put the pressure on. The team has to start beating these two teams and having him come back 0-4 against them is going to effect the team going forward with him imo. Let's see if he can win a big game and Philly is kind of in a little turmoil.

Until I heard the rational on the draw play. As from The ABCs of coaching .

'they had the high umbrella ' or something. Just very passive and neutral . By the numbers

Not considering other factors and not giving the D any respect. Honestly a horrid day on O as well.

Reese was the first NYG GM fired in over 30 years. There's no way Mara fires Gettleman after 2. That would be an admission of organizational dysfunction that they couldn't bear. However, I do wonder if Gettleman will push to cut bait. At least to this point, he's shown no compunction getting rid of players, including at least a few he's signed or drafted. It'll be interesting if he has the same cold-bloodedness when it comes to management. I'm not much of a DG fan, but at least if he did that, I'd give him credit for being willing to recognize a mistake.

The one thing I think that makes it unlikely is that my understanding is that coach contracts are guaranteed. Mara may actually still be paying for McAdoo, so would he be willing to eat another coach contract halfway through? Remember, they gave Shurmur a 5 year contract when he was hired, so they'd have to eat or buyout 3 years of the deal

In comment 14641346 Go Terps said:

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Setting aside that I'm not sure these two drafts have been all that great, Gettleman's had his hand in three massive gaffes: 1. Hiring Shurmur 2. Signing Beckham 3. Keeping Eli when he TWICE could have let him walk for cap savings Shurmur has been an atrocity at coach, but it's not like Gettleman's done a good job either. And again, the GM and head coach should sink or swim together.

Nah, they shouldn’t. This Gettleman take is a throwing the baby out with the bath water situation.

Often enough early , loose, they will throw in that gratuitous failed run play in late as if to prove the point.

Nope. Not proven. Run early and often

DG trades JJ and Ogletree by the trade line this year, gathers more draft picks. Has another solid draft this year and reworks some contracts to get some guys (Solder) off the books faster. DG is selective about who he pays big dollars to in FA, but makes a couple difference makers. DJ continues to develop under PS and the Giants finish 8-8 in 2020 and start to win division games.

Let's also say that PS costs them a couple games (a prospect that I'm more willing to accept as the season goes by). In the winter of 2020 you fire PS and hope that some well known commodity shakes loose somewhere to take over the head coaching spot and take this team to the next level.

You hate Jints central, but ownership isn't about to change. You better hop on board the hope train, b/c you are going to be one miserable Giants fan for the foreseeable future b/c the Giants aren't about to change the way they do business.

Idea to let the season play out before we begin clamoring for a new head coach.

I understand rational and a patience approach are not something fans of franchises steeped in losing for extended periods embrace. But fact is Shurmur has only been here for 23 games

If there would be a continual decline in performance over the next 9 games, we’ll then there is legitimate evidence to support the theory of change.

But I wonder if this coach had some play makers on defense if his end of game management would be so questionable.

Isn’t it possible that going for it on 4 and 18 was motivated by the idea he didn’t t believe his defense would get the ball back if Cards we’re inclined to be aggressive in going for a game clinching first down.

But that if he did turn the ball over in scoring position the Cardinals would be conservative in their approach settling for a FG.

I understand fans motivated on what they have seen in the most recent games in making their judgements are not prone to patience.

But stranger things have happened in sports than the Giants starting to eliminate some of these mistakes and putting a winning streak together.

The Giants are 2-2 in the games they were playing an opponent that is comparable to their talent or experience level and 0-3 vs teams that are legit contenders and clearly on another level at this time.

The Buffalo home opener was disappointing and the end of the Eli era and this past game stings because it was a game they were actually favored to win...and 26 was back. They did have two chances to win in the 4th quarter and likely do win without the rookie's turnovers.

As a fan base we are finally seeing a youth movement that includes an exciting young mobile quarterback and a return to the 3-4 defense. A foundation has been laid and expectations need to be set accordingly. Lame duck/hot seat coaching staffs and fan/media pressure aren't conducive to growth and improvement. The offensive and defensive coaches and their schemes have pelts on the wall and are proven to be successful in this league. The ST have performed thus far.

This team will improve and likely win a game or two they "shouldn't" this year and will continue to be inconsistent and make the kind of errors that causes them to lose a game or games they "should" win.

Calm the fuck down, shut the fuck up and stand it like a man.

It's not because the Yankees lost. It's because the Giants are now one of the worst organizations in the NFL. Pick whichever measure you want...

- 2-5 this season
- 7-16 since the start of 2018
- 10-29 since the start of 2017
- 43-68 since Sandy

We talk about the Handley and Reeves years like they were the Dark Ages, but those years were the Renaissance compared to what we've been watching since 2012.

This is the worst stretch of Giants football in 40 years.

I think DG stays and PS goes.

and something that ownership should be discussing right now. It’s really a simple question:

Does John Mara anticipate Gettleman & Shurmur to be in their current jobs 3 years from now? I’d bet my mortgage that answer is no.

It’s time we build a program here, there hasn’t been a sustainable plan/vision since leading into the 2004 season. Terps makes a good point in that keeping DG/PS will lead to short-sighted decisions very similar to what happened after the 2015 season.

I think Gettleman is far more competent than Shurmur is, but the coach and GM have to be in lock-step. For example, look at the 49’ers:

Shanahan was brought in before Lynch - he was only going to go to SF if he knew he could work with the GM. Same will apply to McDaniels.

It is a good opportunity to have a clean slate at HC & GM with a young QB, cap space & a high draft pick. It would be a desirable job if the GM wasn’t already in place.

Dude seems to understand the league better than any of the talking heads. He was all over Patrick Mahomes.

I'd be surprised if they fire anybody this year though.

In comment 14641683 Go Terps said:

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It's not because the Yankees lost. It's because the Giants are now one of the worst organizations in the NFL. Pick whichever measure you want... - 2-5 this season - 7-16 since the start of 2018 - 10-29 since the start of 2017 - 43-68 since Sandy We talk about the Handley and Reeves years like they were the Dark Ages, but those years were the Renaissance compared to what we've been watching since 2012. This is the worst stretch of Giants football in 40 years.

I understand and it will continue until it doesnt. The question I ask myself is what do I truly believe is most likely to happen. Clean house again and become a perennial powerhouse in less than 1.5 seasons of the next regime or be having this same exact conversation week 8 of 2021.

In this market I believe you either hire someone who has proven able to win and handle the market or you give an unproven the resources and time to build something. I wonder if Coughlin and Eli would have been able to succeed coming off the end of the Reese years vs the Accorsi years. Would we have given them the time?

Quote:

The question I ask myself is what do I truly believe is most likely to happen. Clean house again and become a perennial powerhouse in less than 1.5 seasons of the next regime or be having this same exact conversation week 8 of 2021.

What's most likely to happen is what I outlined in the thread starter. They're going to keep Shurmur and Gettleman for another year, let them fuck this team up a little more, then fire them January 2021.

At this time next year we'll be wishing we'd have made the move right now.

In comment 14641215 allstarjim said:

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The only way Shurmur is fired after 2021 is if the team What is much, much more likely, is that next season, and even late this season, you will see the Giants play better, and the Giants have a good chance of going 9-7 or better next year,

How on Earth can we consider a 9-7 season "much, much more likely?" Isn't that entirely ignoring the past and present?

These would be the first hires without Eli’s career in mind. McAdoo, Shurmur & Gettleman were all hired in hopes of winning with Eli in my opinion.

It’s an opportunity for a true clean slate.

In comment 14641704 mako J said:

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In comment 14641683 Go Terps said: Quote: It's not because the Yankees lost. It's because the Giants are now one of the worst organizations in the NFL. Pick whichever measure you want... - 2-5 this season - 7-16 since the start of 2018 - 10-29 since the start of 2017 - 43-68 since Sandy We talk about the Handley and Reeves years like they were the Dark Ages, but those years were the Renaissance compared to what we've been watching since 2012. This is the worst stretch of Giants football in 40 years. I understand and it will continue until it doesnt. The question I ask myself is what do I truly believe is most likely to happen. Clean house again and become a perennial powerhouse in less than 1.5 seasons of the next regime or be having this same exact conversation week 8 of 2021. In this market I believe you either hire someone who has proven able to win and handle the market or you give an unproven the resources and time to build something. I wonder if Coughlin and Eli would have been able to succeed coming off the end of the Reese years vs the Accorsi years. Would we have given them the time?

Where does Shurmur fall? Is he a unproven that you are giving time even though this is his fourth year or is he a proven winner which I have no idea how any one could think that?

I am fine with DG personally so I don't share the thread starter's views with that. Shurmur.....I have seen enough. Do you honestly feel he could lead the team to a Super Bowl? The only big game he was in as OC he got abused in Philly.

In comment 14641324 WillVAB said:

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He’s found some quality players later in the draft which is extremely hard to do. Look at the rest of the league and Reese’s record here. Hell look at Reese’s record after round 1. His drafts will pay dividends down the road. I don’t think it’s appropriate to consider canning him at this point. Shurmur has to go. I think people around here would feel a lot better about the current and future state of the Giants if they had a coach who provided an advantage over the opposition week to week. This team would be 3-4 or 4-3 right now and right in the thick of it off better coaching alone.

Beyond the 2nd, how successful really is the 2018 draft?

If you group in Beal, how well have Hill, Carter, McIntosh, and Beal shown this year?

all the risks are there. What likely happens is nothing; they retain Shurmur, maybe he gives up a coordinator or two, and they continue to lose for the next couple of seasons, at which point they're right back where they started after Reese.

They should just jump back to that point, and correct a mistake from the past. Bring in an outside consultant, someone who isn't just a rubber stamp, to evaluate the whole program. Interview a number of GM candidates, get their feedback on where the program has gone off the rails and what changes they need to make to get back to competitive football. Hire the best one, let them pick a coach and hold them responsible for the results over the next 3 years. If that doesn't work, go right back to it.

That independent evaluation should be happening right now - so that they get an outsider's view of what is really going on inside those walls. They're obviously not qualified to self assess, and bringing in friends and family in Accorsi didn't get the job done either.

Which in and of itself is ridiculous as just 3 weeks ago I felt really good about the present and the future. I can’t do it anymore. I’ll watch and root and pray for good fortune but I think this team’s long term ceiling is 1-2 decent years mixed in with a bunch of crap, and no real winning.

Until a real HC is brought in I have no hope.

Ummm they shed contracts and absorbed dead money this season TO GO on a free agent 'splurge'. It's in the plan. So no it wouldn't be a surprise. Why would this be undesirable or unwise? It's expected and desired. Term will be market dictated but quality free agemnts aren't signing short term deals. I don't expect the Giants to spend on older or injury risk players.

In comment 14641729 djm said:

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Which in and of itself is ridiculous as just 3 weeks ago I felt really good about the present and the future. I can’t do it anymore. I’ll watch and root and pray for good fortune but I think this team’s long term ceiling is 1-2 decent years mixed in with a bunch of crap, and no real winning. Until a real HC is brought in I have no hope.

It's not just the head coach. Shurmur's completely lost and he inhibits our ability to win on Sundays (we should have lost in Tampa in large part due to his late game clock mismanagement), but he's a symptom of a larger problem.

John Mara has lost his way. The one big thing he's got going for him is that he isn't a Dolan or Wilpon level asshole. Mara wants to win, he just doesn't know how to do it and needs help.

the current plan for rebuild by these 2 not looking good

The real question should be what needs to happen to make John Mara see things differently.

Because until that happens, none of this will ever come to pass.

I don't think he feels confident enough in his own football acumen; so he's trying to keep the ol' tried and true around for the real football stuff.

What would have to happen for Mara to decide that his methodologies as far as who he hires and how he goes about hiring these people are failing and need to change?

I don't know the answer to that.

What I do know, is that it's going to take more than another 5-6 win season for him to show both the GM and coach the door.

Beyond that, we also need to consider the possibility that moving on from Gettleman/Shurmur doesn't guarantee better hires in their respective places.

If the belief is that Shurmur is an even worse coach than McAdoo.. it means we're going in the wrong direction with our hires. I have zero faith in John Mara to suddenly decide that his philosophy needs to drastically change here.

I'm sure he wants to win... I just struggle with seeing how this is going to get fixed when he's still the one making the calls at the top and the one hiring the people tasked with actually doing that.

It felt like Coughlin's time was up here... which is fine. But, we've now successively hired two coaches who are worse. Why would that suddenly change? Blind luck?

And I'm not advocating no changes on that premise.

It's just that John Mara would have to fairly drastically change who he is and how he approaches his football decisions for us to wind up with a GM that doesn't have past NYG ties - and I'm not sure what would have to happen to allow for that to take place.

Quote:

"We need to win some games," Mara said. "I want to feel like at the end of the season that we're moving in the right direction. I'm not going to say that there has to be a minimum number of games we have to win, or we have to make the playoffs, but I want to feel, when I'm walking off the field after our last game of the season, whenever that is, that, you know what, this franchise is headed in the right direction. That, to me, is the most important thing.”

Link - ( New Window )

Sean, I think if there's literally zero improvement in the W column and we wind up a 5 win team again, it's possible Mara would decide that Shurmur is on the cutting block. But I can't see any way he axes Gettleman too unless Jones REALLY looks awful the rest of the way.

I'd expect more half-measures.. like just firing Bettcher and no one else.

It's going to take more than another 5-win year for him to get rid of both guys, I think.

I don't think Gettleman is doing an awful job... but I also don't like a staggered schedule where we're firing coaches, but keeping GM's... or firing coordinators, but keeping the coach like we kept doing with Coughlin near the end. That's not going to work long-term, so if they're going to can Shurmur, they should probably just go all the way.

But, I don't see Mara having the balls to do that. He seems like a guy who likes to play it safe and is very risk-averse.

In comment 14641766 arcarsenal said:

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It's just that John Mara would have to fairly drastically change who he is and how he approaches his football decisions for us to wind up with a GM that doesn't have past NYG ties - and I'm not sure what would have to happen to allow for that to take place.

You know as well as me that the next GM sits across the hall from Gettleman. Kevin Abrams. And the probability is 95%+.

Which means, unfortunately, so much of this is academic. And that is even more infuriating as a fan...

Mara is too conservative, too afraid of taking risks & thinking outside the box. It's plain as day that someone with no ties to this franchise should be brought in & give a frank assessment of everything-talent evaluation, scouting, coaching, personnel, & the like.

Of course I don't expect that to happen. In all likelihood, Shurmur-who is so out of his element that it's sad-stays, they fire a coordinator-probably Bettcher-to appease the fan base, & we go into 2020 with Shurmur continuing to get out coached on a weekly basis.

I'm so frustrated with this franchise right now. Completely lost.

In comment 14641725 christian said:

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In comment 14641324 WillVAB said: Quote: He’s found some quality players later in the draft which is extremely hard to do. Look at the rest of the league and Reese’s record here. Hell look at Reese’s record after round 1. His drafts will pay dividends down the road. I don’t think it’s appropriate to consider canning him at this point. Shurmur has to go. I think people around here would feel a lot better about the current and future state of the Giants if they had a coach who provided an advantage over the opposition week to week. This team would be 3-4 or 4-3 right now and right in the thick of it off better coaching alone. Beyond the 2nd, how successful really is the 2018 draft? If you group in Beal, how well have Hill, Carter, McIntosh, and Beal shown this year?

Hill and Carter are starters and both have at least flashed regardless of negative your opinion is of them. I think they’d all be better with a different staff.

4 starters out of the ‘18 draft and 4 starters out of the ‘19 draft along with promising contributors like Slayton is an incredibly strong draft record. Most teams are getting 1-2 decent players out of the draft. Another strong draft like the last two along w a smart off-season and this team will not be lacking in the talent department. The issue is whether this coaching staff is worth a shit.

People overlook how terrible this roster was when Gettleman took over. Even the bad teams have some core to build around. A group of 3 or 4 high end guys to build off of.

Gettleman inherited Tomlinson, Engram, and Sheppard. That was his core and Engram/Sheppard have been disappointments. I’d say all 3 are just ok players. The core he was handed outside of those 3 were a bunch of overpaid losers with terrible contracts.

best and the team is garbage isn't saying much, other than the team's standards have fallen to the point where a draft pick taking the field is an accomplishment.

In comment 14641264 Ten Ton Hammer said:

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Of the last cycle. After this season, ownership forces Shurmur to change his staff or give up playcalling. He gets 1 more year, then they let him go.

Groundhog day

And in 3 or 4 years..same ol same ol. Mara way

In comment 14641780 bw in dc said:

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In comment 14641766 arcarsenal said: Quote: It's just that John Mara would have to fairly drastically change who he is and how he approaches his football decisions for us to wind up with a GM that doesn't have past NYG ties - and I'm not sure what would have to happen to allow for that to take place. You know as well as me that the next GM sits across the hall from Gettleman. Kevin Abrams. And the probability is 95%+. Which means, unfortunately, so much of this is academic. And that is even more infuriating as a fan...

Yep. We agree there. The discussion is fruitful and makes sense - but the problem is that John Mara is who he is... and if we're just going to fire Dave Gettleman to hire someone like Kevin Abrams, what the heck is the point?

Nothing will drastically change unless Mara's views do. And I'm not sure what would need to happen to make that a reality short of more disastrous Giants football.

good. It's just there no one better.

like Dolan. But I don't think he really knows what he's doing. Let's not forget that Pete Freaking Rozelle had to step in & save us from ourselves with George Young when his old man was running the show. Football competence & the Maras don't exactly seem to go hand in hand.

he took over a 3-13 team with no young talent, an aging QB, and a bunch of high priced vets on bad contracts. The only pieces that team had were Beckham, Engram, Shepard, Tomlinson and Jenkins.

- Drafts Barkley over a QB who see's ghosts
- Drafts Hernandez in Round 2, going to be a key cog on this OL for years
-Drafts Carter and Hill in R3, both have disappointed
this season after flashing last year but still leaps better than anything Reese ever drafted in the 3rd round
-Gets rid of a locker room cancer who was never going to work here in Eli Apple, uses one of the picks acquired to move up for Baker (who IMO looks really solid now that hes settled in)
-Gets rid of an aging Snacks and his bad contract, uses that pick to draft a promising WR (Slayton)
- Flips Vernons horrible contract for a well-above average RG in Zeitler
- Drafts Jones who has the makings of a franchise QB imo
- Drafts Lawrence, highest graded rookie according to PFF
- Wins OBJ trade imo

In comment 14641777 arcarsenal said:

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Sean, I think if there's literally zero improvement in the W column and we wind up a 5 win team again, it's possible Mara would decide that Shurmur is on the cutting block. But I can't see any way he axes Gettleman too unless Jones REALLY looks awful the rest of the way. I'd expect more half-measures.. like just firing Bettcher and no one else. It's going to take more than another 5-win year for him to get rid of both guys, I think. I don't think Gettleman is doing an awful job... but I also don't like a staggered schedule where we're firing coaches, but keeping GM's... or firing coordinators, but keeping the coach like we kept doing with Coughlin near the end. That's not going to work long-term, so if they're going to can Shurmur, they should probably just go all the way. But, I don't see Mara having the balls to do that. He seems like a guy who likes to play it safe and is very risk-averse.

I think Mara wants to win & if we are sitting at 3-7 at the bye (likely), maybe 2-8 - during that bye week there needs to be a come to jesus moment. I really do think Mara wants to win but just needs to be jolted into taking serious action. Sitting at the bye week with another lost season may bring that.

but FA is another story

-Solder was a desperation signing and overpay that hasn't worked out. But then again, who would be playing LT if they didn't sign him?

-Can't believe he traded a 4th rounder for Ogletree...

-Bethea, Martin, Omameh, Stewart were all major flops

-Tate looks like a solid signing and contributor although still not sure it makes any sense given his age and having Shepard as a slot already

- Golden, M. Thomas have been the only signings that really stand out as positives

In comment 14641785 WillVAB said:

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In comment 14641725 christian said: Quote: In comment 14641324 WillVAB said: Quote: He’s found some quality players later in the draft which is extremely hard to do. Look at the rest of the league and Reese’s record here. Hell look at Reese’s record after round 1. His drafts will pay dividends down the road. I don’t think it’s appropriate to consider canning him at this point. Shurmur has to go. I think people around here would feel a lot better about the current and future state of the Giants if they had a coach who provided an advantage over the opposition week to week. This team would be 3-4 or 4-3 right now and right in the thick of it off better coaching alone. Beyond the 2nd, how successful really is the 2018 draft? If you group in Beal, how well have Hill, Carter, McIntosh, and Beal shown this year? Hill and Carter are starters and both have at least flashed regardless of negative your opinion is of them. I think they’d all be better with a different staff. 4 starters out of the ‘18 draft and 4 starters out of the ‘19 draft along with promising contributors like Slayton is an incredibly strong draft record. Most teams are getting 1-2 decent players out of the draft. Another strong draft like the last two along w a smart off-season and this team will not be lacking in the talent department. The issue is whether this coaching staff is worth a shit. People overlook how terrible this roster was when Gettleman took over. Even the bad teams have some core to build around. A group of 3 or 4 high end guys to build off of. Gettleman inherited Tomlinson, Engram, and Sheppard. That was his core and Engram/Sheppard have been disappointments. I’d say all 3 are just ok players. The core he was handed outside of those 3 were a bunch of overpaid losers with terrible contracts.

The notion of those terrible losers is quite interesting; I posted in another thread they net Gettleman 2 3rd round picks, a 4th, 5th, a 1st, Zeitler, and Peppers. The league didn't value them as nothing. Gettleman moved them and built this team on it.

Now if the barometer is being a starter, how productive of starters are Hill and Carter? Hill has been incredibly unproductive this year, Carter missed time so I'll give him an incomple.

Do you believe them to be good?

bitches about hiring known commodities.

Tomlinson and Shepard as just OK players in one paragraph, and then praise Gettleman for taking Carter and Hill in the next?

It's possible neither of those guys ever become as good as Shep, Engram and Tomlinson. They certainly aren't now.

In comment 14641823 Mendenhall64 said:

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bitches about hiring known commodities.

Who are the known commodities that are being bitched about?

In comment 14641723 Lines of Scrimmage said:

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In comment 14641704 mako J said: Quote: In comment 14641683 Go Terps said: Quote: It's not because the Yankees lost. It's because the Giants are now one of the worst organizations in the NFL. Pick whichever measure you want... - 2-5 this season - 7-16 since the start of 2018 - 10-29 since the start of 2017 - 43-68 since Sandy We talk about the Handley and Reeves years like they were the Dark Ages, but those years were the Renaissance compared to what we've been watching since 2012. This is the worst stretch of Giants football in 40 years. I understand and it will continue until it doesnt. The question I ask myself is what do I truly believe is most likely to happen. Clean house again and become a perennial powerhouse in less than 1.5 seasons of the next regime or be having this same exact conversation week 8 of 2021. In this market I believe you either hire someone who has proven able to win and handle the market or you give an unproven the resources and time to build something. I wonder if Coughlin and Eli would have been able to succeed coming off the end of the Reese years vs the Accorsi years. Would we have given them the time? Where does Shurmur fall? Is he a unproven that you are giving time even though this is his fourth year or is he a proven winner which I have no idea how any one could think that? I am fine with DG personally so I don't share the thread starter's views with that. Shurmur.....I have seen enough. Do you honestly feel he could lead the team to a Super Bowl? The only big game he was in as OC he got abused in Philly.

Shurmur is obviously not a proven winner as a head coach (yet) so he falls under an unproven that needs the time and resources to build. He has accelerated the learning phase of this organizations next franchise quarterback and is currently coaching him through a difficult period. A period when the opposition has enough tape to take away strengths and expose weaknesses. Hopefully they can take a few on the chin, grow and counterpunch.

The defense still needs pieces that fit the scheme and the youth need snaps and experience.

Jones may be special. He already looks more talented than anything Shurmur has ever worked with before. Unless he loses the locker room, you give him another offseason and next year with a franchise quarterback to see if they both take the next step.

I don't care how rocky this year is for the defense. Again, as long as he doesn't lose his players, you give Bettcher another year also. This past draft was dedicated to scheme specific defenders and you can't overhaul that side of the ball again for a new coordinator next year. Build it.

He’s the worst head coach next to Handley in my lifetime. Maybe worse.

I disagree on Gettleman. I’d like to see another draft or two from him and hope he bucks the trend of his shitty signings and spends more wisely.

I want a clean sweep of the entire coaching staff. Shurmur, Bettcher, Shula (lol). Everyone. This is a horrendously coached football team.

It will reduce the quality of the head coach candidates, and create an awkward situation where the coach and GM are on different timelines, philosophies, and agendas.

They've both got to go, or keep them both and hope Shurmur spends his off-season playing Madden to learn game management.

What do you honestly expect after this season vis a vis Shurmur/Gettleman?

In comment 14641791 arcarsenal said:

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Yep. We agree there. The discussion is fruitful and makes sense - but the problem is that John Mara is who he is... and if we're just going to fire Dave Gettleman to hire someone like Kevin Abrams, what the heck is the point? Nothing will drastically change unless Mara's views do. And I'm not sure what would need to happen to make that a reality short of more disastrous Giants football.

You can almost write the script.

Mara passed over Abrams for Gettleman. And he probably feels a little guilty about that, but appreciates Abrams loyalty and longevity. So when the next time does come around, Mara rewards that loyalty and longevity.

It's really sad how predictable this is going to be...

In comment 14641902 SFGFNCGiantsFan said:

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What do you honestly expect after this season vis a vis Shurmur/Gettleman?

I think they will both be back next season, and we'll fire them both in January 2021 after a 5-11 season.

And I'll add this as a word of warning regarding Gettleman: look at the Jets as a cautionary tale. They just spent a ton of money on big name free agents and got 0% closer to a title. If we keep Gettleman with the implicit ultimatum of having to win in 2020, we'll make the same mistakes the Jets made and it will hurt us in 2021 and 2022.

By the time you've gotten to the "win or else" year, you already should have gotten rid of the guy.

in place going into this year then they both absolutely get another year. You know something like that happened unless you want to play dumb. If Daniel Jones turns into something then they both get a life-line for another season into 2021. If Daniel Jones struggles for a good bit of 2020 then everybody will be grabbing parachutes.

Bettcher is a goner at end of season if not sooner. Defense looks clueless, brought in several of his players and he acts as if he is on the hot-seat during weekly media sessions anyway. Whomever spoke up for Bethea needs to be crucified for that decision alone.

All defenders of the faith should take their sabbaticals now please...your views have no merit...

I'm reading all over this board about how poorly coached this team is. I understand people are questioning in game management/decisions, but what other signs are there of this awful coaching.

Giants are top 5 in penalties per game. I don't recall any ridiculous egregious personal fouls or evidence of a lack of discipline. No ejections or fighting. Players aren't mouthing off in the media about other players being cancers, or not wanting to be there, or not wanting to be leaders.

Seems like a young team working hard and learning from mistakes.

The TO margins are what are really killing this team's chances of winning right now. TO's mostly tied to a young aggressive QB and a lack of TO's from a young defense.

If it's just when to go or when to punt and the use of timeouts, I don't think this staff is out of line with most other staffs. If anything, Shurmur is more aggressive and could maybe be more conservative with a young team.

If it's just questioning play calling, well, you're likely young or an end of the bar blowhard...

In comment 14641715 santacruzom said:

Quote:

In comment 14641215 allstarjim said: Quote: The only way Shurmur is fired after 2021 is if the team What is much, much more likely, is that next season, and even late this season, you will see the Giants play better, and the Giants have a good chance of going 9-7 or better next year, How on Earth can we consider a 9-7 season "much, much more likely?" Isn't that entirely ignoring the past and present?

My opinion is the Giants have a collection of talent, led by Daniel Jones and Saquon Barkley on defense, Lawrence, Baker, Connelly on offense, but others...they are not that far away. I think all Jones needs is some additional seasoning and NFL reps. He's making mistakes but it would be weird if he wasn't. Another offseason, with Eli coming off the books and with what I expect Gettleman will be able to do with another draft and free agency, I do believe this team is going to be a strong one, and already see the trend pointing northward.

In comment 14641370 Go Terps said:

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In comment 14641364 allstarjim said: Quote: In comment 14641346 Go Terps said: Quote: Setting aside that I'm not sure these two drafts have been all that great, Gettleman's had his hand in three massive gaffes: 1. Hiring Shurmur 2. Signing Beckham 3. Keeping Eli when he TWICE could have let him walk for cap savings Shurmur has been an atrocity at coach, but it's not like Gettleman's done a good job either. And again, the GM and head coach should sink or swim together. The Beckham signing led to a trade that greatly improved the team. The trade should have happened before he was signed. And I don't see this team as greatly improved.

Um, that wouldn't have resulted in much since he wouldn't have been under contractual control. This just shows you don't really have a nuanced take or really know what you're talking about. The fact that Gettleman got what he did from the Browns was because OBJ was locked up.

The trade netted Dexter Lawrence, who is on track for defensive rookie of the year contention, Jabrill Peppers, who is not a bad player, and Oshane Ximines, who has potential.

If it was ONLY OBJ for Lawrence, the trade would be justifiable.

In comment 14641381 Go Terps said:

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They brought Eli back to compete in 2019. That is the bar against which they should be measured. To move the goalposts now is unfair. I said it back in March when they paid Eli's bonus: want to bring Eli back? Fine. Go win games.

You're the only one moving goalposts.

DG is fine with me. I like his drafts and I can't fault him for his FA signings, I liked them too at the time.

They will lead this team to the promised land. Give them time.

In comment 14641982 allstarjim said:
Um, that wouldn't have resulted in much since he wouldn't have been under contractual control. This just shows you don't really have a nuanced take or really know what you're talking about. The fact that Gettleman got what he did from the Browns was because OBJ was locked up.[/quote]

Say what???

I have news for you, the Giants had contractual control over OBJ for the 2018 season. After that they had control over him via the franchise tag. The Giants held ALL the cards in this situation. Gettleman folded like a cheap suit.

Tell me again about not having a nuanced take?

In comment 14641981 allstarjim said:

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My opinion is the Giants have a collection of talent, led by Daniel Jones and Saquon Barkley on defense, Lawrence, Baker, Connelly on offense, but others...they are not that far away. I think all Jones needs is some additional seasoning and NFL reps. He's making mistakes but it would be weird if he wasn't. Another offseason, with Eli coming off the books and with what I expect Gettleman will be able to do with another draft and free agency, I do believe this team is going to be a strong one, and already see the trend pointing northward.

How did Lawrence do this week against a pedestrian OL?

Did you see Baker's ballerina routine that cosmic pointed out? I thought he did poorly on first watch, but after taking a second look he was AWFUL.

Connelly had all of what, two games?

Right now, at best, the Giants are hopeful that they might have a few guys who could be good starters. That's after stripping down some good parts, trading them for picks and cap space, and rebuilding.

The results? Either garbage that's still on the roster and costing money (Ogletree, Solder), or guys who got paid to be sent away quickly (Stewart, Omameh).

Draft picks? The only one you can hang your hat on being better than average going forward is Barkley. Lawrence has upside, but he's been inconsistent. The rest aren't having your typical solid rookie years, with good play mixed in with mistakes. The good play is absent - to the point where you can't figure out if the coaches are complete idiots or they're just working with trash.

It's all academic anyway - the Giants won't pull the plug. They'll be in the same place 2 years from now, and the arguments will be the same with just a few names changed.

In comment 14641905 Go Terps said:

Quote:

In comment 14641902 SFGFNCGiantsFan said: Quote: What do you honestly expect after this season vis a vis Shurmur/Gettleman? I think they will both be back next season, and we'll fire them both in January 2021 after a 5-11 season. And I'll add this as a word of warning regarding Gettleman: look at the Jets as a cautionary tale. They just spent a ton of money on big name free agents and got 0% closer to a title. If we keep Gettleman with the implicit ultimatum of having to win in 2020, we'll make the same mistakes the Jets made and it will hurt us in 2021 and 2022. By the time you've gotten to the "win or else" year, you already should have gotten rid of the guy.

Terps, I'm not sure the Jets are really a good example here... they started Luke Falk in like 3 games. Once you're down to your 3rd string QB, you're pretty much in hopeless territory. They wouldn't have been competitive against a lot of college defenses those few weeks - that's how bad Falk was.

Once Darnold was back, they beat Dallas and they didn't look that bad in Week 1 either before their defense blew it.

CJ Mosely was also one of the guys they spent money on and he missed a bunch of weeks. On top of that, they lost Avery Williamson in preseason - who was their signal caller on defense.

I'm not suggesting that their strategy was sound as far as how they spent their cap dollars, but what happened at the QB position completely removed any semblance of hope of being competitive in those games.

Now, Darnold obviously did play on Monday... and the Jets were completely laughed off the field. But, if Darnold hadn't missed a month with mono, they might still at least reasonably be in the mix at something like 3-3.

I actually thought they could have had a fairly competitive year as they were constructed and could have won 8-9 games... but that ship has sailed.

Mara and Tisch, a double dutch disaster.

So, Abrams next, ya think? Another disaster.

Tomlin? I recall Bill Arnsbarger. That didn't work either. Because Mara...

What we need is a GM and Manager of ALL Operations and get the Maras & co. the hell out of the day-to-day business.

Otherwise, I am for keeping Gettleman and Shurmur. Because the root of the rot is the ownership, not the GM or Coach.

Than PS and DG getting fired at the end of this year, but that likely required an 0-16 season. Maybe if they get rolled in the second half every game like the Jets did on Monday it can still happen. Minimum PS has to go

A full house cleaning has been needed since TV was let go. But bad decisions and half measures (with a healthy dose of loyalty to Eli) has lead us here. 5 wins is the likely ceiling of this team until an outside voice is brought in

1. The Mara/Tisch relationship has them frozen. Mara has to go to Tisch for major changes and I think that impedes him.

2. Gettleman is 68 years old. Let's be honest...maybe he is around for one more year.

3. Shurmur at this point looks like a coordinator.


Everyone needs to take a step back and let the season play itself out. But I agree with Terps that if you are planning on getting rid of Shurmur, Gettleman has to go (retire) at the same time. The Giants need to have the GM and coach on the same page and they need to come in together. What coach would want to come in under a soon to be retire GM?

advocating changes is a good thing

Expecting decision makers to make them at the peak or the trough of any human enterprise is unlikely

Its a full blown full out talent turnaround...I don't care what PR stuff is claimed.

Its completely unlikely that a huge variable gets changed after a rookie QB season on a 1 year in multi year turnaround.

If we over rotate on every loss in a rookie QB season on a turnaround team we join Jints Central in poor football judgement.

Do I think PS is the answer? No. Since last year. I think he sucks at game management and is highly unlikely to improve. As a game manager he is a center.

Would most owners change a big variable in their business equation at this time? No

Do I think its offensive play calling that's the number one or two reason we are where we are? No. Its like fifth after OL, LB, DB and WR

Takes a long aggravating time to turn a ship around

In comment 14642547 Bill2 said:

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advocating changes is a good thing Expecting decision makers to make them at the peak or the trough of any human enterprise is unlikely Its a full blown full out talent turnaround...I don't care what PR stuff is claimed. Its completely unlikely that a huge variable gets changed after a rookie QB season on a 1 year in multi year turnaround. If we over rotate on every loss in a rookie QB season on a turnaround team we join Jints Central in poor football judgement. Do I think PS is the answer? No. Since last year. I think he sucks at game management and is highly unlikely to improve. As a game manager he is a center. Would most owners change a big variable in their business equation at this time? No Do I think its offensive play calling that's the number one or two reason we are where we are? No. Its like fifth after OL, LB, DB and WR Takes a long aggravating time to turn a ship around

Of course it's not likely to happen. Ownership has been unable to self scout, so why would they be able to determine that Gettleman and Shurmur are failing at their jobs.

One thing that does get under my skin though is using the rookie QB as an excuse. We entered the season with Eli Manning, a 15 year vet, as the quarterback. Gettleman espoused the supposed "Kansas City model" and even implied that Jones might sit on the bench for two or more years. Even if that was PR bullshit, Eli was brought back at great expense - $17M in cap space.

If anyone over rotated, it was Gettleman. He signed Beckham to a cornerstone contract and traded him 7 months later. He committed to paying Eli $23M to be the quarterback in 2019 and benched him after 2 games. These are the moves of a man with no plan.

I know that Gettleman and Shurmur are likely back in 2020. But I thought this was a thread worth starting because I would bet money that we are having this same conversation a year from now - that 2020 is already a lost year and we'll all be a year older and talking about starting over again.

It's disheartening that a bunch of non-experts like a bunch of us here can have even this relatively low level of foresight, but ownership does not.

picks. They are still learning and look ok so far to me. I alos wouldn't touch Zeitler, Peppers, Hernandez, and Shepard. All of these players are the ones you build around. The rest of the players can be replaced, if we get the right deals/draft picks. Shurmur should go also.

Why if being a Giants fan is causing so much angst, anger,and anxiety then why waste time? Just choose another team. One that wins all the time so your expectations will be met ALL the time. Giants ain't listening to you, anyhow. Neither DG PS or JM care what you think they should do.

Go Terps:

I feel PS is not going to be a playoff series winning coach

I do not know the decision risk analysis behind OBJ.

For one thing a guy who is motivated in many different ways by many different fleeting impulses (OBJ) is not a guy who is going to make any decision maker ( QB, Coach or GM) look in control from game to game much less season to season much less over seasons. Its like signing an addict to a contract. The only decision trees are two: it works out as he currently claims it will and he stops the associated holdouts and BS or we are in a position to trade him because we eliminated the projectable points where he has leverage ( short term impending FA is eliminated from the equation)

Nor do any of us yet know if the payback for a fading performance was a very good DL, a good safety (if paired with a good FS) and a very good FA or 2 good FA. So we don't know if DG took a 50% likely decline and turned it into the long term thinking you espouse.

On QB, my take is simple. Until you have a good new one, you cant do anything with the old fading one.

When it comes to a bad roster, the evaluation criteria for a GM is not talent aquisition, its managed fire sale with minimal risk. The exception is QB where the range of likely Eli performance at the time was x to y. Until you have a new better QB on the roster you cant throw away x to y performance.

Notice as soon as Jones projected x to y exceeded Eli's x...they made the decision

Decisions are made in time windows. Commentary is made afterwards. Ok. So when does a good analyst evaluate? Anyone can comment. Good Analysts evaluate GM talent by assessing the reasonable risk at the time of the decision window.

imo

In comment 14642596 Nolan64 said:

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Why if being a Giants fan is causing so much angst, anger,and anxiety then why waste time? Just choose another team. One that wins all the time so your expectations will be met ALL the time. Giants ain't listening to you, anyhow. Neither DG PS or JM care what you think they should do.

If you think the Giants don't react to the fanbase you haven't been paying attention.

In comment 14642600 Bill2 said:

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Go Terps: Good Analysts evaluate GM talent by assessing the reasonable risk at the time of the decision window. imo

This^^^^^

Many on BBI do not understand this. It is a problem.

Many of us were critical of the Gettleman/Shurmur hires the moment they were made, and our concerns have completely materialized into reality.

while we can drop an average Cb and project that it is a fungible resource we can find in one off season...we know that even an average QB in one offseason draft ready within that season is a less than 50% probability.

that's why you don't drop one until you know you have another actually ready to play

its 50% of the difference in winning or losing and less than 50% that your draft produces a NFL ready QB within a year.

Just a fact. Are their examples of successful rookie QB's? Yes. Are there more examples of rookie QBS who need more time or never got it? Yes. Many more.

So imo, OBJ and QB are not the points which hoist DG on a pointard.

His was an insanely hard job with an ownership that likely does not know how to see what they see. DG is going to be evaluated mid way into next year with one more FA and draft.

Go Terps, you know I agree with much of your thinking over the years. But we cant simultaneously claim they need to look long term and then make some judgements before their time.

I do agree that less than 5 victories and PS should be gone.

5 or more its likely another season.

First useful marking period for DG is mid way into next year provided no major injuries that negate any solid evaluation

Please don't confuse my feelings from my thinking. I don't feel PS is going to make it. I feel this is all taking too long. I feel that surely this turnaround could have been done faster

Nope.

Tat last post reveals a common human quasi faux-analytical trap.

Taking some data points, (ignoring all others) and torturing them into confessing your original emotional take.

In sophomore year logic, cherry picking.

thinking is not feeling

I did not mean that as a put down.

I think many of your instincts are very good.

There is a reason your instincts are now all highly tuned to downside risk and "seeing" leadership flaws

Makes them a theme and not an analysis. So finding neutral add to your vision ...it doesn't weaken it...it broadens it.

make sense?

and this is NOT a knock on DJ, who I am still high on.

but in the past 10 years, what successful QB's (or those we deem to be high quality) have struggled in their first 2 years?

we always go back to Aikman & Peyton, and even Eli for our examples... but when I think of guys like Rodgers, Mahomes, Wilson, Dak, Wentz, A. Luck and Cam**... I seem to recall these guys pretty much came out of the gate successfully and have been generally pretty good since.


**I suppose you can debate if all of these guys should be on the "Good" List (and Cam would seem to be off it now, though that may be more injury related).

so is it right in today's NFL to expect our QB to show something in Year 1 or 2 as a predictor of long term success?

I don't agree that my original take is an emotional one. I'm calling the situation as I see it playing out. I consider myself to be more objective than most, and I'll stand by my record here of seeing how things are going to develop for this team.

I'll boil it down to the simplest terms I can: there's a good chance the latest that either Gettleman or Shurmur will be working in their present roles with the Giants is January 2021. That's not an emotional take; it's how I see things playing out what I've come to understand Mara's tolerance for losing to be.

2018: 5-11
2019: 5-11
2020: 5-11

That's how I see this playing out, and that's going to be enough for Mara to blow it up.

My point with this thread is that, given this likely outcome, it's best to just blow it up now.

That's not an emotional take; it's how I see things playing out and what I've come to understand Mara's tolerance for losing to be.

And Reese mid-season and I remember a lot of people making claims that Mara would never do such a thing. I think Mara has made some bad decisions the past few years for a variety of reasons, but I think he’s going to be as impatient as we all are this point. If both he and DG feel Pat isn’t doing a good job I can see them letting him go at season’s end. Especially if he winds up with the same or even worse record as last year. In the preseason Mara said he just wants to feel like the team is in the right direction by the end of the season.. some pieces of young talent feel that way, but overall, a lot of work to be done..and the coaching staff is for syre on the hot seat now.

He's invested vast resources in the OL which still sucks.

His draft picks have shown some promise. I like Jones a lot. Lawrence looks good. But I consider his drafting TBD rather than a solid point on either side.

I thought this was a 2-3 year job when DG was hired. I think he misjudged the roster and thought he could compete with a few tweaks his first year - which I think was a colossal mistake that set this franchise back.

With that said, I expect him to get another year, and I'm kind of okay with it. Maybe we see Hernandez take the next step, Jones ascends to a top ten QB, etc. The draft picks need more time to decisively rule on DG, IMO.

If we are 5-11 or worse in 2020, the new regime will probably select its own QB.

In comment 14642620 Bill2 said:

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His was an insanely hard job with an ownership that likely does not know how to see what they see. DG is going to be evaluated mid way into next year with one more FA and draft. I do agree that less than 5 victories and PS should be gone. 5 or more its likely another season. First useful marking period for DG is mid way into next year provided no major injuries that negate any solid evaluation Please don't confuse my feelings from my thinking. I don't feel PS is going to make it. I feel this is all taking too long. I feel that surely this turnaround could have been done faster

I agree with everything you wrote in this post. I cut it down to highlight what really hits home for me.

DG midway through next year. Perfect. Looking at the lines on both sides of the ball.

5 wins, I agree on PS

Think vs Feel

Very well said. I concur with your feelings.

Bill2, do you play or have you played chess competitively?

In comment 14642650 Go Terps said:

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I don't agree that my original take is an emotional one. I'm calling the situation as I see it playing out. I consider myself to be more objective than most, and I'll stand by my record here of seeing how things are going to develop for this team. I'll boil it down to the simplest terms I can: there's a good chance the latest that either Gettleman or Shurmur will be working in their present roles with the Giants is January 2021. That's not an emotional take; it's how I see things playing out what I've come to understand Mara's tolerance for losing to be. 2018: 5-11 2019: 5-11 2020: 5-11 That's how I see this playing out, and that's going to be enough for Mara to blow it up. My point with this thread is that, given this likely outcome, it's best to just blow it up now.

5-11 for 2020 would be the actionable part of this data and I think it is too early to call that without knowing the roster, I would think it more of a guess even if it turns out to be correct.

.

In comment 14642705 Go Terps said:

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.

sigh...He might not be here next year.

And if Shurmur is fired, it's bad business to keep the GM and head coach on different timelines. Sigh.

Here is where we disagree:

First, the prime asset any CEO has is credibility with executive talent possibilities. Not us. Not players.

Getting a reasonable long enough to prove timeline with the CEO is the difference in many many executive level talent recruitment drives.

No one wants to work at the whim or early reactions of a CEO. Unless their exit parachute is ownership lucrative in which case its an investment risk.

So your assessment: I feel if i combine the actual past record with talent from a previous regime with my feeling about the future then why waste time?

Huh...the record earned under the tail of Reese/Ross is still with us but less and less. Name a good semi proven GM with prospects for an NFL career that is not going to insist on a reasonable period of judgement which includes a wash out the past regime of 2 years and then 2 years to show what they can do?

You would insist on that. Why wouldn't a guy with solid credentials as an NFL GM insist on the same and avoid a owner who pulls that job early?

The past is lost. It affects our patience as fans. But it doesn't merit evaluating these guys in their time.

the Giants past does not demonstrate the need for a shorter and shorter leash on the GM.

It demonstrates that the current Gm ( and if needed the future one) has four tasks:

1) Managing the owner

2) Getting max value for the mismatches of the past GM

3) Building a new roster

4) keeping all the stakeholders understanding those sometimes zigging and zagging looking words and actions

Task 37: saying stuff to the media.

imo

its bad business?

As in Bill Parcells was bad business?

Bill Walsh?

BB?

Tom Landry?

Seriously? that post right there is the product of fact driven analysis or the product of frustration?

last season on BBI that John Lynch was a terrible GM??

One of many humorous sidebars to these type of rants.

In comment 14641189 Eric from BBI said:

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most likely go the route they did after 2006 when they forced coaching changes on Coughlin.

Problem with that is Shurmur is the play caller. How can you strip the Head Coach of play calling duties and still justify keeping him. He'd lose all of his credibility

In comment 14642731 Go Terps said:

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And if Shurmur is fired, it's bad business to keep the GM and head coach on different timelines. Sigh.

You really think there would be a problem if DG decided to go with a different coach next year? Describe the issues that would cause and supply the supporting evidence.

In comment 14642737 Bill2 said:

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its bad business? As in Bill Parcells was bad business? Bill Walsh? BB? Tom Landry? Seriously? that post right there is the product of fact driven analysis or the product of frustration?

You just named four coaches who were hired in a completely different era, where the considerations were completely different.

And let me understand something: so it's ok to fire the head coach after two years, but we can't fire the GM because it will make it harder to hire a qualified GM? What about hiring a coach that not only knows we've fired Shurmur after two years, but he is going to have to work with/under Gettleman?

And enough with blaming Reese. Reese didn't help hire Shurmur (who we're already universally deeming a failure), nor did he make the numerous mistakes that have been made with the current rosters and salary cap. That's not an emotional analysis. What you're calling emotion I'd call an unwillingness to engage in rationalization and excuse making.

And all of that isn't really the point. The point is Gettleman's gonna be out the door January 2021 at the latest. Play out the scenarios, and you'll find that one is most likely.

Ships passing in the night

Lets let it go as an unbridgeable gap in understanding each other that's not worth closing. Happens sometimes.

Its sports so not worth looping

All the best and hope you are well

When the Giants fire Gettleman 15 or so months from now we can revisit. In the meantime the losses will continue to mount.

is whether he is a good evaluator of player talent year-in and year-out.

Is DG?

DG is responsible for the roster.

Is the roster better than when he took over?

If you freeze me in this exact moment in time, I would say yes.

Shurmur is responsible for coaching and developing the roster.

If you freeze me in this moment in time I would say Shurmur is doing no better than McAdoo.

Also, I would say it should take longer to evaluate a general manager than a coach. I think Shurmur deserves the rest of the season, DG deserves at least one more year probably two as long as the roster continues to improve.

In comment 14642831 Jimmy Googs said:

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is whether he is a good evaluator of player talent year-in and year-out. Is DG?

I'm going to say yes right now. However, most people agree it's year 3 that you can really evaluate how good a draft was. That's why I think DG deserves at least next year. If in year 3 Carter puts it together and has 16 sacks? That matters in how you would evaluate his first draft.

If he's drafting well (jury is still out on that) and failing at strategic planning, pro scouting, coaching hires, and preventing his owner from doing stupid things then we still aren't going anywhere.

We know that in October of year two?

How exactly does a GM 'prevent the owner from doing stupid things' ?

In comment 14642846 arcarsenal said:

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How exactly does a GM 'prevent the owner from doing stupid things' ?

Establishing a good line of communication and being honest.

Then being willing to resign - the GM - if he finds an owner's decision detrimental to the team.

In comment 14642845 Sneakers O'toole said:

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We know that in October of year two?

We know he failed at three already. Beckham's contract and retaining Eli are set in stone as errors. Unless Shurmur suddenly learns how to coach, he failed there too.

or why something went wrong.

When executives and owners fuck up, there's a line out the door to explain things away and very sharp calls for "one more year, give it time, I trust him". Why does it happen this way?

In comment 14642851 bw in dc said:

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In comment 14642846 arcarsenal said: Quote: How exactly does a GM 'prevent the owner from doing stupid things' ? Establishing a good line of communication and being honest. Then being willing to resign - the GM - if he finds an owner's decision detrimental to the team.

Do we know that Gettleman and Mara don't have a good line of communication or that Gettleman isn't honest with Mara?

Maybe they do have a good relationship and agree on stupid decisions together. Or maybe Gettleman isn't quite willing to get up and leave his position because Mara sees something differently than he does.

What kinds of decisions do you think Mara would make that Gettleman would consider 'detrimental' enough to seriously consider walking away over?

Given that he apparently allowed Shurmur (whom he had just hired) to change his mind from trading Beckham to giving him $60M guaranteed, I'm skeptical as to whether Gettleman is actually being the level head in the room when other people (including the owner) are suggesting stupid shit like bringing Eli back.

Those are opinions about tge contract status of holdover players. We traded away one of thise contracts, essentially turing bonus monry paid into new players and picks.

And the decision on Eli essentially jad to ne made in March. Keeping him on a contract that will be off the books tjis next offseason was a no brainer.

2020 is the year thats been circled on the calendar from day one.

I suck at texting

In comment 14642858 arcarsenal said:

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Do we know that Gettleman and Mara don't have a good line of communication or that Gettleman isn't honest with Mara? Maybe they do have a good relationship and agree on stupid decisions together. Or maybe Gettleman isn't quite willing to get up and leave his position because Mara sees something differently than he does. What kinds of decisions do you think Mara would make that Gettleman would consider 'detrimental' enough to seriously consider walking away over?

I was answering the question in the broader sense.

Specifically as this relates to Mara and Gettleman, I obviously don't know the actual relationship.

But I feel very comfortable in this piece - that Gettleman took this job because (1) there was no market demand for him elsewhere, (2) he knew Mara wanted to keep Eli as the QB, which made that a condition of the hire, and (3) he need to hire a coach who would be comfortable with Eli as the starting QB in 2018.

So by relenting to #2, that essentially forced Gettleman to come out of the gate trying to build a winner with a QB that many thought was on that wrong side of the production curve. For my tastes, that got the Owner/GM relationship off on the wrong foot. And further compounded our problem(s)...

I do think it's possible, to your supposition, that Gettleman and Mara could be birds of a feather and just end up in the same dumb spot with critical decisions...

In comment 14642862 Sneakers O'toole said:

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Those are opinions about tge contract status of holdover players. We traded away one of thise contracts, essentially turing bonus monry paid into new players and picks. And the decision on Eli essentially jad to ne made in March. Keeping him on a contract that will be off the books tjis next offseason was a no brainer. 2020 is the year thats been circled on the calendar from day one.

The decision on Eli should have been made the moment Gettleman was hired. But set that aside...how do you think things are looking for 2020?

- The head coach is incompetent, and his staff is generally poor with few exceptions
- The QB is a question mark
- Left tackle and right tackle are both minuses
- The wide receivers are poor
- The only edge rusher of note (Golden) probably won't be here
- The only MIKE of quality will be coming off an ACL tear
- The secondary is a giant question mark

Does this feel like an 11-5 team in 2020?

Here's where my real problems are with the current situation...

I don't have the necessary intel on what went down regarding the decision they made to ultimately keep Eli here this year. It's my personal belief that Mara had the largest hand in it and that the GM and coach probably would have preferred to go draft Jones (or whichever QB).

I think Mara was shellshocked over what went down with Geno Smith/Eli in 2017, became petrified of something resembling a Simms redux, and wanted Eli here for another go around where he could sort of 'restore' the perception that he can still play behind what was supposed to be an improved offensive line and more competitive football team.

So, that brings me to Gettleman. The Eli part of this entire equation clearly impacted the flexibility of the 2019 Giants. If Gettleman disagreed and preferred to move on from Eli, I'm not sure he has or had the authority to make that call. Could he realistically have changed Mara's thinking on Eli? If so, could he have fielded a more competitive team this season with additional cap flexibility?

Does Gettleman have the final call on the coaching hires? This is another question I don't know the exact answer to. But the answer would impact my thinking.

I'm not bailing Gettleman out of this - it's possible he actually just agreed with Mara and wanted to give Eli another run at it. But, John Mara is where I keep arriving when I'm looking for the source of this mess the Giants have been in the midst of.

And that's why I'm skeptical that cleaning house again might not get us anywhere. If Gettleman and Shurmur go, who is going to be the loudest voice in the room when it comes to Gettleman's successor? Will that guy have full-autonomy to choose his own coach, etc?

If Mara fires Gettleman only to turn around and hire Kevin Abrams... we might end up in an even worse place than this.

These aren't necessarily reasons to retain the GM. Just points to consider.

Last year, and this one, were mostly just about stabilization. You were not going to fix the mess that was left in 2017 in FA in 2 years. Fan expectations are out of sync with the reality of where this team is or was.

A team that was in open revolt no less.

Are made with cap space in 2020 in mind, that's been clear.

I don't disagree with what you're saying. And fundamentally, Mara is absolutely at the center of the problem.

I certainly don't want Abrams to be the next GM...I've been calling for a complete front office revolution for a couple years now. But I don't think Abrams is a worse prospect as a GM than Gettleman is. I don't think he's better either...I think he's just more of the same (in the same way that Gettleman was more of the same when he was hired).

I don't just want Gettleman and Shurmur gone for the sake of them being gone. I'm just hoping Mara wakes up to the fact that it's time for the full measure - completely restructure the organization with outside oversight. It's time to stop passing the torch from "family" member to "family" member and start building something new from the ground up...because that's where we are: the ground floor. We're no closer to being a winner today than we were when Gettleman took the reins.

We're adrift. Nowhere.

In comment 14642879 Sneakers O'toole said:

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Are made with cap space in 2020 in mind, that's been clear.

So what happens in 2020? We spend on big name FAs? Like the Jets just did? You think paying through the nose for JaDeveon Clowney and Jack Conklin is going to get us closer to the Super Bowl?

I think it's just going to dig the hole deeper.

I think the plan is pretty much that - to finally compete in 2020. But, to get there, we have to actually start improving at some point.

The Cardinals game really took a lot of wind out of my sails. That was a game I thought this team was ready to step up and win. Instead, we were given another display of the coach's incompetence and an embarrassing loss at home.

When are the Giants going to actually start improving and winning football games? If we wind up 4-12 or 5-11, what gives anyone confidence that we'll be ready to compete next season?

The plan can't be to go out and buy a competitive team with cap dollars. We tried to fix the defense that way in 2016 and just 3 years later, almost all of those guys are gone and all that's left is Jenkins and over 10 million dollars in dead money from Vernon and Harrison.

FA is a way to plug holes. Were suffering from years of bad roster decisions. We can't use cap money on home grown talent, because we haven't producex enough.

We didn't dig this hole overnight, and we arent fixing it overnigbt.

In comment 14642884 Go Terps said:

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I don't disagree with what you're saying. And fundamentally, Mara is absolutely at the center of the problem. I certainly don't want Abrams to be the next GM...I've been calling for a complete front office revolution for a couple years now. But I don't think Abrams is a worse prospect as a GM than Gettleman is. I don't think he's better either...I think he's just more of the same (in the same way that Gettleman was more of the same when he was hired). I don't just want Gettleman and Shurmur gone for the sake of them being gone. I'm just hoping Mara wakes up to the fact that it's time for the full measure - completely restructure the organization with outside oversight. It's time to stop passing the torch from "family" member to "family" member and start building something new from the ground up...because that's where we are: the ground floor. We're no closer to being a winner today than we were when Gettleman took the reins. We're adrift. Nowhere.

I guess that's the shitty part. It's a matter of hope when we boil it all down. We literally have to hope that John Mara suddenly has some sort of revelation that causes him to change his approach and thinking as far as who he hires next.

Sadly, I have very little confidence in that happening.

Im saying this doesn't even start resembling a Gettleman team until then

.

In comment 14642894 Sneakers O'toole said:

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FA is a way to plug holes. Were suffering from years of bad roster decisions. We can't use cap money on home grown talent, because we haven't producex enough. We didn't dig this hole overnight, and we arent fixing it overnigbt.

I'm all for using FA to plug holes, and I want to spend every cent of the cap that we can...but not in the way we're about to. I think you hit the nail on the head...2020 is being viewed as the year to compete. So what is Gettleman going to do? Spend big on big name FAs hoping they kickstart the turnaround.

What happens when we finish 5-11 again because Shurmur still sucks, or because we got a new coach and his system doesn't mesh with the team Gettleman put together? Or maybe we fall into the "QB whisperer" trap again with Shurmur's replacement. What happens when that whisperer wants a different QB from Jones? Does Gettleman get his way with his guy (Jones) or does the new coach get to pick?

This is a mess.

In comment 14642899 Sneakers O'toole said:

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Im saying this doesn't even start resembling a Gettleman team until then

So, let's say the team starts to more resemble a 'Gettleman team' next year, but we only win 6 games.

Is that satisfactory? Does that buy him another year? Or does the team absolutely have to win next year to justify keeping him here?

I fall into this trap a lot. I keep finding ways to give them more time - but at some point we're either moving forward, or we're treading water.

The Cardinals game was something I looked at as a potential measuring stick. Could we get out of the basement and stop being considered one of the worst teams in football?

Nope.

Being realistic with what I think could actually be a possibility and what has extreme odds against... I'd probably settle for the coach and his staff getting axed by season's end.

At least with a stronger coaching hire and a smart offseason, we actually could potentially be a relatively good team next year. But I'm pretty much relegating myself to thinking we're never going to get anywhere with Shurmur. He's in over his head.

But there isn't a win/loss benchmark that I would puy on 2020.

It's year one.

I'm not sure if I give him that same leeway. I'm not as down on him yet as most, but I'm not sold either.

In comment 14642601 Go Terps said:

Quote:

In comment 14642596 Nolan64 said: Quote: Why if being a Giants fan is causing so much angst, anger,and anxiety then why waste time? Just choose another team. One that wins all the time so your expectations will be met ALL the time. Giants ain't listening to you, anyhow. Neither DG PS or JM care what you think they should do. If you think the Giants don't react to the fanbase you haven't been paying attention.

Management does listen if many fans are loud. Really loud in multiple areas where profits decline.

In answer to your OP, what you foretell may actually come true but maybe not. Looking at this team and the results, I'd be onboard right now for a new head coach and assistants next year. I don't think the games are being managed well and the players are not performing well.

I'd give the GM one more year. Having inherited a roster devoid of good young players at nearly every position takes time to fix. If after 3 years the team is still a failure I can see trying something...anything. Tear it all down, admit hiring DG was a fail and hope to do better.

IMO, canning the GM after only 2 years in this case seems rushed and likely to cause a few more years of misery.

San Francisco is probably a team we should be looking at...

They are now in year three with Lynch/Shanahan. They were a 4 win team last year, but they're 6-0 this year with a defense as good or better than anyone in football sans New England and look like they are one of the strongest teams in the NFC.

The 2016 Niners team that Kelly coached was as abysmal and horrendous as the 2017 team that McAdoo coached. It was a rock-bottom year for them. They had nothing there.

So, by your timeline, this would be 'year one' for them - and they're doing quite well. If the 49ers were 2-4 right now and looked like we did again, I think it would be fair to start wondering whether or not Lynch/Shanahan deserve more time.

Shouldn't we be able to expect NYG to execute this rebuild in a similar timeframe?

If we're still a bad team next year, something isn't working. And if Shurmur is still here, we probably will be.

If we keep Gettleman and fire Shurmur, Gettleman will have a hand in picking the next coach. It's worth remembering that Gettleman emerged from the interview process thinking that Shurmur was "an adult". It's worth mentioning the Giants didn't even bother to interview Reich, whose Eagles team embarrassed Shurmur's Vikings 1 day before we hired Shurmur.

In comment 14642926 arcarsenal said:

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San Francisco is probably a team we should be looking at... They are now in year three with Lynch/Shanahan. They were a 4 win team last year, but they're 6-0 this year with a defense as good or better than anyone in football sans New England and look like they are one of the strongest teams in the NFC. The 2016 Niners team that Kelly coached was as abysmal and horrendous as the 2017 team that McAdoo coached. It was a rock-bottom year for them. They had nothing there. So, by your timeline, this would be 'year one' for them - and they're doing quite well. If the 49ers were 2-4 right now and looked like we did again, I think it would be fair to start wondering whether or not Lynch/Shanahan deserve more time. Shouldn't we be able to expect NYG to execute this rebuild in a similar timeframe? If we're still a bad team next year, something isn't working. And if Shurmur is still here, we probably will be.

The 49ers lost their starting QB in week 3 last season.

The Giants started this year both with their franchise QB and their QB of the future on the roster. The Giants might still match their win total.

He will... but if we fire Gettleman too, then Mara is the one picking the next GM who will, by extension pick the next coach.

Like I said - not against moving on from both - it's just that we run into the same problem in having zero-confidence with the people responsible for hiring the replacements when we do.

Accorsi & Reese we’re here for a LONG time. Both had very good careers here. Reese was also young enough to be here for a longer time. The plan was to have Reese & McAdoo linked for a 10-12 year run.

Terps: I remember you referencing McAdoo (hopefully) being to us what Tomlin was to the Steelers. It was going down that path in 2016 where he coached very well. Also, just for fun - watch McAdoo’s post game locker room speeches vs Shurmur. McAdoo has so much more of a presence. Honestly, this wasn’t a bad plan.

This all started to fall apart with the Eli benching & McAdoo as a very young coach had problems with the malcontents on the roster. Knowing what I know now, I’d rather just keep Reese & McAdoo if this was the alternative.

Gettleman is not an awful GM imo. Unlike Shurmur, he has some success on his resume. I don’t think he’s the right man for this job right now though. Shurmur is a victim of the peter principle, nothing more to say. He can’t handle the job.

Where I think a lot of people are wrong is the assumption Mara will sit tight. He’s had a rough 5 years, but he is MILES ahead of Dolan/Wilpon still. Recent history has not stated he will do nothing here.

-Reeves gone after 3 years
-Fassel gone after the first really bad year. Say what you will about Fassel, his teams always competed.
-Coughlin gone after 3 bad years, but he won 2 SB’s here and will be held to a higher standard than Pat Shurmur.
-McAdoo didn’t even get a full season after going 11-5!

People speak in absolutes saying Shurmur will be back, I don’t see it. Let’s look at their head coaching records 23 games into their Giant careers:

McAdoo: 12-11
Shurmur: 7-16

Shurmur is far from a lock to be back.

In comment 14642931 jcn56 said:

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In comment 14642926 arcarsenal said: Quote: San Francisco is probably a team we should be looking at... They are now in year three with Lynch/Shanahan. They were a 4 win team last year, but they're 6-0 this year with a defense as good or better than anyone in football sans New England and look like they are one of the strongest teams in the NFC. The 2016 Niners team that Kelly coached was as abysmal and horrendous as the 2017 team that McAdoo coached. It was a rock-bottom year for them. They had nothing there. So, by your timeline, this would be 'year one' for them - and they're doing quite well. If the 49ers were 2-4 right now and looked like we did again, I think it would be fair to start wondering whether or not Lynch/Shanahan deserve more time. Shouldn't we be able to expect NYG to execute this rebuild in a similar timeframe? If we're still a bad team next year, something isn't working. And if Shurmur is still here, we probably will be. The 49ers lost their starting QB in week 3 last season. The Giants started this year both with their franchise QB and their QB of the future on the roster. The Giants might still match their win total.

Losing Garropalo was the reason for them having one of the worst defenses in football last year?

Forget the QB - look at the difference in the defense. The QB isn't the architect behind this 6-0 start. He's not even playing particularly well.

of what we should be aiming at. Its a team they drafted, home grown.

list all the HV candidates the Giants interviewed and went after under DG?

Thanks

HC

In comment 14642938 Bill2 said:

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list all the HV candidates the Giants interviewed and went after under DG? Thanks

Eric Studesville
Steve Wilks
Shurmur
McDaniels
Patricia
Spagnuolo

Link - ( New Window )

were in the wilderness a long time.

The 2019 49ers are a team that runs the ball a ton, runs the ball pretty effectively, and leans on their top-flight defense.

I'd love to see the Giants emulate what they're doing.

cannot go on a ridiculous Free Agent spending spree next year to fix this team. Have to do it via the draft but obviously picks are limited so what we have to do (and needed to in 2018) is trade down and acquire more and more picks.

I know many on here believe that quality is better than quantity but I do not, especially when you hope to already have your QB and need talent all-over-the-place.

In comment 14642941 Sneakers O'toole said:

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were in the wilderness a long time.

Not as long as we've been (and still are), sadly.

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The 49ers lost their starting QB in week 3 last season. The Giants started this year both with their franchise QB and their QB of the future on the roster. The Giants might still match their win total.

The Giants willingly inflicted upon themselves the financial equivalent of Eli Manning tearing his Achilles in practice after week 2. The sheer stupidity of how they handled the QB position this spring can't be overstated.

I hope you're right.

We have to rebuild the core of this roster before we can begin talking about the rest of this. That doesn't happen in October of year 2.

This roster was rotten to the core.

In comment 14642948 Sneakers O'toole said:

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We have to rebuild the core of this roster before we can begin talking about the rest of this. That doesn't happen in October of year 2. This roster was rotten to the core.

And it's still really, really poor.

In comment 14642947 Go Terps said:

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I hope you're right.

I do wonder if we bailed on McAdoo too soon. He likely won’t ever get another job and he did some things very badly. However, he was very high on Mahomes. He truly looked out for the best interest in the franchise when he knew Eli no longer had it. And, he pushed every right button in 2016.

Would keeping McAdoo for 2018 & 19 have been worse than what we have now?

I say this as someone who generally agrees with a lot of what Gettleman has done -- the excuse making for him is bizarre. If Reese swung and missed at the chances Gettleman has had the last 2 years he'd be destroyed by the fans. Gettleman has to be right on these.

- The Giants were in fine cap shape when he was hired
- This abhorrent "core" he inherited net him a 1st, 2 3rds, a 4th, a 5th, Zeitler and Peppers
- He acquired Ogletree, Solder, and Tate
- He extended Shepard
- He's had 4 first round picks, 2 in the top 6
- He's had 8 top 70 picks
- He chose 3 CBs -- then chose to keep Jenkins, who had a statistically atrocious season last year and pay him 15M
- He chose to pay a QB 17M after picking one in the top 6
- He's about to have another top 10 pick
- The Giants are back to being in fine cap shape

Believing this is a young team that will blossom is one thing, believing Gettleman was left some hole he's desperately digging out of is preposterous.

Thats the point. It takes time

In comment 14642951 Sean said:

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In comment 14642947 Go Terps said: Quote: I hope you're right. I do wonder if we bailed on McAdoo too soon. He likely won’t ever get another job and he did some things very badly. However, he was very high on Mahomes. He truly looked out for the best interest in the franchise when he knew Eli no longer had it. And, he pushed every right button in 2016. Would keeping McAdoo for 2018 & 19 have been worse than what we have now?

I'd rather have kept McAdoo and blown up the roster, which as Sneaker says was rotten to the core. McAdoo was a really good gameday coach in 2016, and he had a good gameplan going into the playoff game until Beckham & Co. ruined the start of that game. At least he showed that.

Has Shurmur shown anything positive? If he has, I don't see it.

Nope and not close

In comment 14642942 arcarsenal said:

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The 2019 49ers are a team that runs the ball a ton, runs the ball pretty effectively, and leans on their top-flight defense. I'd love to see the Giants emulate what they're doing.

Anybody notice the Niners run the ball a ton with 2 undrafted free agents and Tevin Coleman who they picked up in free agency this year for $10m/2 year deal.

just sayin'...

In comment 14642959 Jimmy Googs said:

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In comment 14642942 arcarsenal said: Quote: The 2019 49ers are a team that runs the ball a ton, runs the ball pretty effectively, and leans on their top-flight defense. I'd love to see the Giants emulate what they're doing. Anybody notice the Niners run the ball a ton with 2 undrafted free agents and Tevin Coleman who they picked up in free agency this year for $10m/2 year deal. just sayin'...

In year 3 Lynch has the 9ers turned around having roughly the same draft resources Gettleman has had in 2. Having roughly as bad as a team as Gettleman inherited.

Going into year 3, Gettleman will have had no less than 5 first round picks, likely 3 in the top 10. Likely 10 top 70 picks. But it's "year one" for him.

Lynch would have been fired before this year.

The niners defense is a home grown defense built through the draft. That doesn't happen in 1 1/2 years.

What fix would you have done coming out of '17?

In comment 14642959 Jimmy Googs said:

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In comment 14642942 arcarsenal said: Quote: The 2019 49ers are a team that runs the ball a ton, runs the ball pretty effectively, and leans on their top-flight defense. I'd love to see the Giants emulate what they're doing. Anybody notice the Niners run the ball a ton with 2 undrafted free agents and Tevin Coleman who they picked up in free agency this year for $10m/2 year deal. just sayin'...

Don't forget that they also paid McKinnon. He hasn't played because he got hurt in both camps so far. McKinnon's cap hit will be about the same as Barkley's next year.

SF is actually spending more money than we are on the RB position - they're just spread out more. I guess we can debate which strategy is better - they're running the ball more effectively than we are so far; but I'm not sure that's not more a symptom of the coach than the personnel.

though...

Chris Ballard became the Indy GM in 2017, inheriting not only a disastrous situation from an incompetent predecessor, but a franchise QB with significant injury issues.

2017 (no Andrew Luck) - 4-12, fires Pagano
2018 (Hires Reich and Luck returns) - 10-6 and a road playoff win
2019 (Luck retires on the eve of the season) - 4-2

He acquired Jacoby Brissett straight up for Phillip Dorsett. Anyone want to know how Brissett is performing this year?

65%, 14/3, 1388 yards, 101 QBR.

Combined this year and next Brissett is making only $7M more than Eli is this year, and they didn't need to spend the 6th pick overall for him.

The Colts went through Luck's sudden, catastrophic retirement and they aren't missing a beat. Are they blaming Ballard's predecessor? Did they need 3 years of bad football to turn around the roster before they could be "graded"?

No. They are actually adults.

.500 in years. They weren't the dumpster fire the Giants became.

I'm the one making the case. Not the Giants.

In comment 14642997 Sneakers O'toole said:

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I'm the one making the case. Not the Giants.

Not taking a shot at you. Just making a quip on Gettleman.

In comment 14642975 Sneakers O'toole said:

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Lynch would have been fired before this year.

FYI...York basically said Lynch and Shanahan were given the same type of 6 year contract. And they were in this for a long term solution...
LINK - ( New Window )

In comment 14642936 arcarsenal said:

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Losing Garropalo was the reason for them having one of the worst defenses in football last year? Forget the QB - look at the difference in the defense. The QB isn't the architect behind this 6-0 start. He's not even playing particularly well.

Of course not - but you're playing the 'well look, they only won 4 games' game.

They were sending Nick Mullens out there at QB. They ended up 21st overall, with a decline in offensive production over the last 13 games so let's call it 23rd. This year, they're 11th offensively.

With their actual starting QB in the lineup, not only would the pressure on their D been significantly reduced but it's fair to assume they would have won a few more games.

The Giants are set to look just as bad on paper, if not worse, than last year.

.

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In comment 14642874 arcarsenal said:

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I'm not bailing Gettleman out of this - it's possible he actually just agreed with Mara and wanted to give Eli another run at it. But, John Mara is where I keep arriving when I'm looking for the source of this mess the Giants have been in the midst of. And that's why I'm skeptical that cleaning house again might not get us anywhere. If Gettleman and Shurmur go, who is going to be the loudest voice in the room when it comes to Gettleman's successor? Will that guy have full-autonomy to choose his own coach, etc? If Mara fires Gettleman only to turn around and hire Kevin Abrams... we might end up in an even worse place than this. These aren't necessarily reasons to retain the GM. Just points to consider.

Mara is indeed the problem because he has created this culture of clones. Everyone buys into the same philosophy. It's just one big echo chamber at Jints Central. Everyone is cut from the same cloth of thinking.

We hit on this last night. Abrams is the heir apparent. So it'll be more of the same whether or not DG goes now or ceremoniously passes the baton to KA.

By being a card carrying member of Jints Central and the "Giants Way", and hired by Accorsi, DG lost all credibility as an independent voice to truly shake up this organization. And that was the absolute last thing we needed after the Reese/Coughlin Era. Which was simply one card carrying member (Accorsi) handing off the another card carrying member (Reese). It's just way to incestuous at this point...

Until that process is broken, things will stay broken.

In comment 14643032 bw in dc said:

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In comment 14642874 arcarsenal said: Quote: I'm not bailing Gettleman out of this - it's possible he actually just agreed with Mara and wanted to give Eli another run at it. But, John Mara is where I keep arriving when I'm looking for the source of this mess the Giants have been in the midst of. And that's why I'm skeptical that cleaning house again might not get us anywhere. If Gettleman and Shurmur go, who is going to be the loudest voice in the room when it comes to Gettleman's successor? Will that guy have full-autonomy to choose his own coach, etc? If Mara fires Gettleman only to turn around and hire Kevin Abrams... we might end up in an even worse place than this. These aren't necessarily reasons to retain the GM. Just points to consider. Mara is indeed the problem because he has created this culture of clones. Everyone buys into the same philosophy. It's just one big echo chamber at Jints Central. Everyone is cut from the same cloth of thinking. We hit on this last night. Abrams is the heir apparent. So it'll be more of the same whether or not DG goes now or ceremoniously passes the baton to KA. By being a card carrying member of Jints Central and the "Giants Way", and hired by Accorsi, DG lost all credibility as an independent voice to truly shake up this organization. And that was the absolute last thing we needed after the Reese/Coughlin Era. Which was simply one card carrying member (Accorsi) handing off the another card carrying member (Reese). It's just way to incestuous at this point... Until that process is broken, things will stay broken.

The Maras have how many Lombardis vs your idol Danny?

from Gettleman after continued losing - do the Giants have the stones to suggest Abrams should be the next man up?

Would Giants fans be as receptive the next time around?

In comment 14643044 jcn56 said:

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from Gettleman after continued losing - do the Giants have the stones to suggest Abrams should be the next man up? Would Giants fans be as receptive the next time around?

You know Mara. He loves loyalty and longevity. Abrams was likely the runner-up to DG for the job. So that's going to build equity for the next time. I don't wan to say it's a fait accompli, but it's probably damn close...

In comment 14643044 jcn56 said:

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from Gettleman after continued losing - do the Giants have the stones to suggest Abrams should be the next man up? Would Giants fans be as receptive the next time around?

That isn’t going to work. I think that was the plan when they hired Gettleman, but you can’t do that if you’re not winning.

The Giants like stability at GM & they probably justified hiring Gettleman whose older because he could pass the torch to Abrams. But, they won’t be able to sell the move.

In comment 14643017 jcn56 said:

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In comment 14642936 arcarsenal said: Quote: Losing Garropalo was the reason for them having one of the worst defenses in football last year? Forget the QB - look at the difference in the defense. The QB isn't the architect behind this 6-0 start. He's not even playing particularly well. Of course not - but you're playing the 'well look, they only won 4 games' game. They were sending Nick Mullens out there at QB. They ended up 21st overall, with a decline in offensive production over the last 13 games so let's call it 23rd. This year, they're 11th offensively. With their actual starting QB in the lineup, not only would the pressure on their D been significantly reduced but it's fair to assume they would have won a few more games. The Giants are set to look just as bad on paper, if not worse, than last year.

Mullens actually wasn't that bad. Was he appreciably worse than Garropolo has been so far this year? Garropolo has the largest cap hit on this year's team at nearly 20M. What if SF had used that money elsewhere and went cheaper @ QB?

The 49ers were also 1-2 with Garropolo last year before he got hurt - it's not like they were blowing the doors off anyone. I actually just don't think Garropolo is all that good, honestly. I think he's okay - I don't think he's worth what they paid him. I bet they'd still have at least 5 wins with Mullens playing QB right now with that defense - especially if they'd reinvested Garropolo's 20M cap hit elsewhere.

If you ask me, Brissett is actually better than Garropolo.

I think the QB is actually the worst part of their cap picture right now.

Sounds like we are on the same page.

1. Gettleman hasn’t done a great job, but he hasn’t been awful - far better than Shurmur has been.

2. Shurmur is a disaster and we should move on.

They were hot for Beckham...we probably could have gotten Mullens as a throw in.

There were just so many better avenues to pursue than what we've actually done since Gettleman took over.

In comment 14643090 Sean said:

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Sounds like we are on the same page. 1. Gettleman hasn’t done a great job, but he hasn’t been awful - far better than Shurmur has been. 2. Shurmur is a disaster and we should move on.

I would say yes, I agree with both points.

In comment 14643094 Go Terps said:

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They were hot for Beckham...we probably could have gotten Mullens as a throw in. There were just so many better avenues to pursue than what we've actually done since Gettleman took over.

I don’t know why a team like the Bears haven’t inquired about Mullens (if he’s available).

In comment 14642952 christian said:

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I say this as someone who generally agrees with a lot of what Gettleman has done -- the excuse making for him is bizarre. If Reese swung and missed at the chances Gettleman has had the last 2 years he'd be destroyed by the fans. Gettleman has to be right on these. - The Giants were in fine cap shape when he was hired - This abhorrent "core" he inherited net him a 1st, 2 3rds, a 4th, a 5th, Zeitler and Peppers - He acquired Ogletree, Solder, and Tate - He extended Shepard - He's had 4 first round picks, 2 in the top 6 - He's had 8 top 70 picks - He chose 3 CBs -- then chose to keep Jenkins, who had a statistically atrocious season last year and pay him 15M - He chose to pay a QB 17M after picking one in the top 6 - He's about to have another top 10 pick - The Giants are back to being in fine cap shape Believing this is a young team that will blossom is one thing, believing Gettleman was left some hole he's desperately digging out of is preposterous.

To be fair, Eli was paid BEFORE Jones was drafted. They may not have even decided on who they were going to draft or if they would even get Jones when that happened. You let Eli go, you signal to everyone you're drafting a QB, it decreases their chances of getting Jones because if another team really liked him, they would've traded ahead of the Giants for him if they had any inkling the Giants were interested. We'll never know for sure what would have went down, however.

Also, if you don't think Gettlemen took over an atrocious roster then I don't know what to tell you. The offense had been completely ineffective for a long time and the defense was run by a few players that were working off of bloated contracts and all showed poorly in 2017. Everyone was very happy to 'blow it up' after 2017, and some were upset that they waited until mid-2018 to do so.

I don't know what the answers are, but you can't keep blowing everything up every two years and hope that this time it'll work. But again, fuck if I know what should be done other than just keep drafting good players!

Right now, I think the defense is devoid of talent/too green and losing Connelly and pretty much the entire LB core all at once made any chance of being effective pretty much null. Betcher doesn't seem to know what to do to make it work which is worrisome. Same with the offense, rookie QB learning to play on top of losing all of the worthwhile skill players all at once is a recipe for disaster. The o-line looked pretty league-average the first few games. Once Barkley and others went out, defenses don't have to defend anything, they can just attack at will and with a rookie QB trying to be a superhero on top of that. I also don't think Shurmur should be a head coach and calling plays at the same time, he seems to not be able to handle it. If he suddenly has to give up play-calling duties at any point, like McAdoo did, consider him gone at the end of the season without a miraculous turnaround.

I don't question Gettleman paying Manning the roster bonus as insurance against not getting his QB in the draft. Honestly, it's the other 11.5M he committed by keeping him on the roster.

As far as the defense being talentless, who's to blame for it?

Can you genuinely say Gettleman hasn't had considerable draft and cap resources to invest in this defense? The only low resource guys starting are Mayo & Bethea.

Hill - GM 3rd round pick
Tomlinson - JR 2nd round pick
Lawrence - Gettleman 1st round pick

Carter - GM 3rd round pick
Golden - GM UFA
Ogletree - GM trade
Mayo - GM UFA

Peppers - GM trade
Bethea - GM UFA
Baker - GM 1st round pick
Jenkins - JR UFA

They've been really good against the run recently, and they are young, they are competing. They've played well enough to give the Giants a chance to win for two weeks in a row.

They've been screwed by poor officiating for at least 2 weeks in a row.

Baker, Connelly, Love, Ballentine, Lawrence, Ximines, and for all intents and purposes, Beal, are all rookies and most of those guys have shown at least some ability to be good players in the future. To a thinking person, that would indicate the Giants are a growing team that is making strides and on the right track. That's a lot of young talent to bring along on a defense and it's been 7 games.

Next year this defense will be a top 10 unit.

In comment 14651495 allstarjim said:

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They've been really good against the run recently, and they are young, they are competing. They've played well enough to give the Giants a chance to win for two weeks in a row. They've been screwed by poor officiating for at least 2 weeks in a row. Baker, Connelly, Love, Ballentine, Lawrence, Ximines, and for all intents and purposes, Beal, are all rookies and most of those guys have shown at least some ability to be good players in the future. To a thinking person, that would indicate the Giants are a growing team that is making strides and on the right track. That's a lot of young talent to bring along on a defense and it's been 7 games. Next year this defense will be a top 10 unit.

This sounds so much like what we've been hearing in the past, it's uncanny.

Remember last year when our offense was going to be great in 2019 because we scored some points after the season was essentially over? Those would be fun threads to read now.

Does the Leonard trade fall into the category of things you were afraid of with sticking with this regime?

In comment 14651544 ron mexico said:

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Does the Leonard trade fall into the category of things you were afraid of with sticking with this regime?

Absolutely. Like I wrote on the other thread, we now have to hope that Williams develops into something he hasn't been to this point; we had to do the same thing with Vernon in 2016.

What's past is prologue. Williams is almost certainly going to be a building block player now.

I’m largely resigned to both guys being back next year but the idea of them trading away picks in a draft they may not be around to run gives me pause.

In comment 14651555 ron mexico said:

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I’m largely resigned to both guys being back next year but the idea of them trading away picks in a draft they may not be around to run gives me pause.

One of Gettleman's first jobs was to clean out Reese's bad contracts. He did that, and is now replacing them with his own.

2020 is already likely a lost year. We're now creeping into 2021 and 2022.

Mara isn’t signing off on this trade if Gettleman’s job was in jeopardy. Right of wrong, Gettleman has the keys to the franchise right now in terms of personnel.

I think for an owner whose obsessed with optics like Mara is, these next 2 games a huge for Shurmur:

National televised game hosting Dallas -if the Giants lose 35-10 with MetLife filled with Cowboys cheering followed by a loss to the Jets, we’ll have a new staff next year.

The Giants will win 2 or 3 games, and we'll hear the same rhetoric we've been hearing about finishing strong, arrow pointing up, etc. We also have Jones to point to as an excuse.

I expect this board will sound like the hilariously misled thread below come January.
The Giants' Offense is Gonna be Good in 2019!!! - ( New Window )