Barring the unforeseen the Giants will be entering this offseason with a top 5-ish draft pick and some money to spend in the free agent market. In that sense, we aren't all that far off from where we were in January 2018: a bad football team with opportunities for growth on the horizon.
However, there's one key difference between January 2018 and January 2020 - this time the decisions look like they'll be made in large part by two men squarely on the hot seat: Gettleman and Shurmur. Given their tenuous job situation, can we expect them to avoid a short term splurge at the expense of the long term?
When I think about this, there's a timeline that keeps playing out in my head, and it goes like this:
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December 2019
- Giants finish 5-11, both Gettleman and Shurmur keep their jobs
January-May 2020
-Giants spend big bucks to sign FAs (think Shaq Barrett, Jadeveon Clowney, Jack Conklin, AJ Green, Amari Cooper). -They also don't consider drafting a QB after all, they just drafted Jones
Fall 2020
- under Shurmur's inept coaching the Giants sputter to another 5-11 season
January 2021
- Gettleman and Shurmur are fired
- New GM and head coach are hired
January-May 2021
- New GM and head coach commence purging roster of contracts they don't want, resulting in significant dead money on cap
- New GM and head coach decide they don't like Daniel Jones and want their own QB
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Going through that scenario, the obvious question arises: why didn't we just fire Gettleman and Shurmur in January 2020?
Unless you believe that Shurmur can coach a team to something greater than 5-11, this story ends with Gettleman and Shurmur being fired. So why allow them the opportunity to make a bunch of desperate decisions in January-May 2020?
Drafts have been good and while Carter, Hill may not be plus players they can at minimum be high quality depth...this is important for championship teams.
Mara has stated he has been very please with the last two drafts. I do not think DG spends all the money next year either. Sensible signings, keep building pipeline/competition through draft, FA, and UFA. Keep adding good football players.
In the grand scheme of things you hope Jones is ready to make a deep run years 3-5.
Regarding Shurmur, I would move on. He will not get this team over the hump imo and is not anywhere near Fassel as a motivator or selector of staff. I think as the heat gets turned up him he may very well crumble which will force Mara's hand.
Drafts have been good and while Carter, Hill may not be plus players they can at minimum be high quality depth...this is important for championship teams.
Mara has stated he has been very please with the last two drafts. I do not think DG spends all the money next year either. Sensible signings, keep building pipeline/competition through draft, FA, and UFA. Keep adding good football players.
In the grand scheme of things you hope Jones is ready to make a deep run years 3-5.
Regarding Shurmur, I would move on. He will not get this team over the hump imo and is not anywhere near Fassel as a motivator or selector of staff. I think as the heat gets turned up him he may very well crumble which will force Mara's hand.
I think this is pretty spot on.
I'm not thrilled with the coach or GM right now but am still inclined to give them their 3 years (a lot depends on the rest of the season). I'd rank my preferences as 3 years sweeping changes > 2 years sweeping changes > staggered accountability. I genuinely think the worst thing they can do this offseason is play the scapegoat game.
I'm not as adverse to DG as I am to the coaching. But what, has he hit on FAs less than 50%. I think his drafting is good, meaning he identifies quality players. We may disagree on which position was drafted, but the guys he has chosen appear to be better than we have seen in half a decade prior.
Don't tell me it's just a title and no one really knows what he does. He's one of the owners and in pretty much the most important spot in a football organization. If he's doing nothing it's showing. If he's actively picking players it's showing.
The Giants need to hire someone in that spot that has earned it not inherited it and knows what he's doing. Chris Mara has absolutely no qualifications, no proven track track, nothing except his last name to be in that spot.
1. Hiring Shurmur
2. Signing Beckham
3. Keeping Eli when he TWICE could have let him walk for cap savings
Shurmur has been an atrocity at coach, but it's not like Gettleman's done a good job either.
And again, the GM and head coach should sink or swim together.
My fear is that Mara will not make the required changes simply because he wants to avoid the perception that the team can’t get it right or fires coaches quickly.
Remember, McAdoo was not fired because of his record. He was fired because he benched Eli Manning unceremoniously and there was a negative backlash.
Mara is a status quo guy. I would be shocked if Shurmur doesn’t get another year, although I completely agree with the original premise that this is a crucial period and is absolutely the time to clean house and try again.
I don’t think Mara has the fortitude to make that call. Worse, I don’t think he has a fucking clue what to do next. Whatever Accorsi tells him I guess.
1. Hiring Shurmur
2. Signing Beckham
3. Keeping Eli when he TWICE could have let him walk for cap savings
Shurmur has been an atrocity at coach, but it's not like Gettleman's done a good job either.
And again, the GM and head coach should sink or swim together.
I think 2 and 3 were ownership decisions.
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The only way Shurmur is fired after 2021 is if the team has another 5-11 season or worse, like you said, but then his job performance would fairly be judged, unless something happens like Daniel Jones is forced to IR early in the season.
Shurmur's offense is very good, it's resulted in a lot of positive outcomes for this team from a statistical perspective. He's made some mistakes, but with a rookie QB I believe he's the right guy in the right place to develop him and get him to be a consistent winner.
What is much, much more likely, is that next season, and even late this season, you will see the Giants play better, and the Giants have a good chance of going 9-7 or better next year, when Gettleman has another offseason to address the holes on this roster, and Jones is a bit more seasoned and the game slows down a bit for him. Then all this hand-wringing will be moot and you will be enjoying the product on the field more.
As of today, it looks like we are heading for 5-11 or worse.
Folks said Jerry Reese would never be fired. They also said Ben McAdoo would never be fired before the season was over. (I personally didn't see either happening).
My point? Everything is possible.
5-11 or worse was for the 2020 season. I don't think there's any chance Gettleman and/or Shurmur are fired before the conclusion of the 2020 season.
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Setting aside that I'm not sure these two drafts have been all that great, Gettleman's had his hand in three massive gaffes:
1. Hiring Shurmur
2. Signing Beckham
3. Keeping Eli when he TWICE could have let him walk for cap savings
Shurmur has been an atrocity at coach, but it's not like Gettleman's done a good job either.
And again, the GM and head coach should sink or swim together.
I think 2 and 3 were ownership decisions.
We've heard that Shurmur convinced Gettleman to keep Beckham. And yeah Eli was definitely ownership, but part of Gettleman's job is to keep ownership from making those types of mistakes. He failed.
I just don't expect the Giants to be this forward thinking.
I think we are stuck with both for another year. Shurmur is forced to replace some staff. And we are looking at new hires in 2020.
But on the bright side, we will be in the hunt for Trevor Lawrence!
My fear is that Mara will not make the required changes simply because he wants to avoid the perception that the team can’t get it right or fires coaches quickly.
Remember, McAdoo was not fired because of his record. He was fired because he benched Eli Manning unceremoniously and there was a negative backlash.
Mara is a status quo guy. I would be shocked if Shurmur doesn’t get another year, although I completely agree with the original premise that this is a crucial period and is absolutely the time to clean house and try again.
I don’t think Mara has the fortitude to make that call. Worse, I don’t think he has a fucking clue what to do next. Whatever Accorsi tells him I guess.
McAdoo went 11-5 on the back of Spags' defense with Landon Collins having his career year. The offense even in that season was a complete and total dumpster fire. McAdoo was supposed to change that. His offense stuck out loud both years he was here, and just for Shurmur's improvements and contrast to McAdoo, you can easily see Shurmur is a much, much better coach. If you go back and look at the scoring that year, we won with just our defense being so dominant, even when the offense was completely shitting the bed.
Wellington hired Coughlin. His sons hired McAdoo & Shurmur.
The Mara bros will either keep Shurmur or hire the next coach too. I'm sure Gettleman will get an ask, just like Ernie got an ask and said no way when Coughlin was hired and then Wellington hired him anyway.
The Mara bros will decide what they want to do about Shurmur and they'll let Gentleman talk to the media to explain it like it was his idea. It's what they do.
1. Hiring Shurmur
2. Signing Beckham
3. Keeping Eli when he TWICE could have let him walk for cap savings
Shurmur has been an atrocity at coach, but it's not like Gettleman's done a good job either.
And again, the GM and head coach should sink or swim together.
The Beckham signing led to a trade that greatly improved the team.
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I mentioned on a different thread that I see Shurmur going the route of Jim Fassel. Just as we are ready to bury him, he will come up with a playoff run and save his job. And then get more mediocrity and be ready to fire him and he goes on another little run for a playoff spot. This will keep him going, but the Giants won't win a championship with this guy.
I fully expect them to splurge next year in Free Agency, but I actually see them going something like 10-6 next year and making the playoffs.
And I think like Eric said, he's going to serve up Bettcher at the end of the season. And perhaps they make him give up playcalling duties to Shula. But unless he loses the team, I don't think the Giants fire him, even though I don't think he's going to win anything here.
I don't see it. I agree with Go Terps. He doesn't have a feel for this, not as HC. For all his warts, Fassel got the Giants to the playoffs three times, including one Super Bowl appearance. Shurmur will never get a whiff of any of that.
I see Shurmur as Poor Man's Norv Turner. He's a competent offensive coordinator who isn't a head coach. I wasn't wowed by him when he was hired other than being the guy before The Guy. But after watching the Mara's for 40 years, I think we know how this will go. You need to show Handley or McAdoo levels of incompetence in order to get fired after 2 years. And their issue wasn't x's and o's (if anything Parcells said that Handley was a human computer on his staff and thought he was going to be a great coach). Their issue was their teams were in open revolt against them, the media smelled blood and the fans turned on them which forced the Giants hand.
Shurmur comes from a football family, he's been around the NFL. So I don't expect a flameout like McAdoo/Handley. His future is tied to Jones. If Jones plays better in December, you better believe he's coming back.
But the signs are there to throw Bettcher out, even to save Shurmur's job. Remember in January the Giants tried to hire the Jets' DC Kacy Rodgers for some amorphous "senior defensive advisor" role and he turned them down and went to Tampa. To me that was very strange to have him there in that role, and it seemed to me to be a case where the Giants wanted to get an inhouse replacement ready.
If I had to guess right now, I still think that Shurmur is back next year. He gets the Fassel "make the playoffs or you're fired" threat over his head in 2020. But to show that he will make adjustments, he will fire Bettcher for someone and the Giants might force him to let Shula call plays. Like I said, I have no faith in Shurmur bringing the Giants anywhere and even if he makes the playoffs, he will be one and done.
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In comment 14641187 Go Terps said:
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That's part of my point. The GM and head coach have to be in lock step working together.
If we fire Shumur but keep Gettleman, we're now limiting our head coaching pool to guys interested in working under Gettleman, who might be gone in a year if things go badly.
It has to be Shurmur and Gettleman, not one or the other.
Not that I endorse following the Jets model, but didn't they just hire a HC and then get rid of the GM.
And what makes you think a potential coach wouldn't want to work with DG? Specifics please.
Because they might be interested in running a team like it's the 21st century?
Jokes aside, we're limiting our pool of potential candidates by pushing a GM on them. Not just that, it could be a major source of friction...the head coach will know that he and the GM are on different timelines with different job security - like what happened with the Jets. And now the Jets are a complete mess.
If we're going to maximize efficiency, the GM and head coach have to be tied at the hip and rowing in the same direction.
You keep saying things like this. I keep asking you specifically why do you believe the Giants have been left behind with respect to the modern NFL?
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In comment 14641346 Go Terps said:
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Setting aside that I'm not sure these two drafts have been all that great, Gettleman's had his hand in three massive gaffes:
1. Hiring Shurmur
2. Signing Beckham
3. Keeping Eli when he TWICE could have let him walk for cap savings
Shurmur has been an atrocity at coach, but it's not like Gettleman's done a good job either.
And again, the GM and head coach should sink or swim together.
I think 2 and 3 were ownership decisions.
We've heard that Shurmur convinced Gettleman to keep Beckham. And yeah Eli was definitely ownership, but part of Gettleman's job is to keep ownership from making those types of mistakes. He failed.
Mara was basically negotiating in public with Beckham's people in the 2018 offseason. The decision to sign and later trade him, I have no doubt came from ownership.
As far as a GM telling an owner what to do? Good luck.
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Setting aside that I'm not sure these two drafts have been all that great, Gettleman's had his hand in three massive gaffes:
1. Hiring Shurmur
2. Signing Beckham
3. Keeping Eli when he TWICE could have let him walk for cap savings
Shurmur has been an atrocity at coach, but it's not like Gettleman's done a good job either.
And again, the GM and head coach should sink or swim together.
The Beckham signing led to a trade that greatly improved the team.
The trade should have happened before he was signed. And I don't see this team as greatly improved.
Shurmur stays but has to give up play calling and one or both coordinators.
But in October 2020, you and I are having the same conversation.
That's where the real problem is.
The guy has no balls and is far too concerned with what outside voices are saying. I don't think he really has any idea what to look for so he just keeps going back to his old rolodex.
Gettleman hasn't been a disaster so far - there's good and bad. But, it's become abundantly clear that the coach is just... not good.
It's unrealistic enough as it is to think that Mara is going to clean house a year and a half in when Daniel Jones has started just 5 games - it becomes even more unrealistic to then expect him to completely change his ways of thinking and entrust an out of the box hire.
The Giants are in a bad place right now - but I think this bad place can get worse if we start playing musical chairs with the entire staff every 2 years.
I'd be more in favor of canning Gettleman if I had any faith in the replacement being better. I'm actually afraid Mara could potentially hire someone even worse.
Firing the coach is more realistic. In-season, no... I don't think they'll do that for a 2nd time in 3 years. But after the year, if this is another 5 win season... I could see it.
I just can't see Gettleman getting walking papers after 14 games of Daniel Jones... unless Jones starts to look so bad that we start wondering whether or not he's even the right guy.
At the very least, they need to fire Betcher, Hal Hunter, and Shula. Which I think actually has a chance of happening. Remove that layer of unimpressive coaching and get back into the market for better assistants. Why Hal Hunter was even hired is one of the all-time perplexing, dumb decisions.
For example, let's spend some money on Rex Ryan instead of free agents. He can develop and coach defense. The apple certainly didn't fall too far from Buddy's tree...
I'm saying that as a guy who thinks we should probably move on from him.
We're still a storied franchise with patient owners (to a fault) and a young quarterback who has flashed promise. The latter fact alone makes us an attractive destination because QB is the number one factor in whether or not a HC gets a second contract.
Firing HC's and staff is a big expense and they are still paying Hair Gel. Hopefully this does not factor.
I said it back in March when they paid Eli's bonus: want to bring Eli back? Fine. Go win games.
Shurmur stays but has to give up play calling and one or both coordinators.
But in October 2020, you and I are having the same conversation.
I can see it going that way, but I feel like one key difference between Shurmur and Coughlin is that Shurmur hasn't won dick as a HC, here or anywhere previous. Coughlin had reached the AFC Championship game with another team and had two wild card appearances (one 11 win season) with the Giants.
At the very least, they need to fire Betcher, Hal Hunter, and Shula. Which I think actually has a chance of happening. Remove that layer of unimpressive coaching and get back into the market for better assistants. Why Hal Hunter was even hired is one of the all-time perplexing, dumb decisions.
For example, let's spend some money on Rex Ryan instead of free agents. He can develop and coach defense. The apple certainly didn't fall too far from Buddy's tree...
Shurmur stays but has to give up play calling and one or both coordinators.
But in October 2020, you and I are having the same conversation.
Really hope not Eric. He does not have the resume for this imo and I think this would really hurt his credibility with the players without having had success as a HC
I said it back in March when they paid Eli's bonus: want to bring Eli back? Fine. Go win games.
Yeah the problem with that is how much of that was Gettleman’s call and how much of it was the Mara brothers?
As long as Chris is in the FO, accountability will always be murky.
I said it back in March when they paid Eli's bonus: want to bring Eli back? Fine. Go win games.
1000 percent agreement!
Shurmur stays but has to give up play calling and one or both coordinators.
But in October 2020, you and I are having the same conversation.
Sounds about right.
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will unfortunately keep their jobs. So while I would certainly subscribe to the house cleaning idea, Mara is just too loyal to Accorsi, who recommended Gettleman, who hired Shurmur.
At the very least, they need to fire Betcher, Hal Hunter, and Shula. Which I think actually has a chance of happening. Remove that layer of unimpressive coaching and get back into the market for better assistants. Why Hal Hunter was even hired is one of the all-time perplexing, dumb decisions.
For example, let's spend some money on Rex Ryan instead of free agents. He can develop and coach defense. The apple certainly didn't fall too far from Buddy's tree...
Shurmur couldn't hold the team with Rex in the building.
I thought about that. But he really likes Daniel Jones and his future. So he may supportive of the offense, and not let it get to the point where it's a house divided...
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They brought Eli back to compete in 2019. That is the bar against which they should be measured. To move the goalposts now is unfair.
I said it back in March when they paid Eli's bonus: want to bring Eli back? Fine. Go win games.
Yeah the problem with that is how much of that was Gettleman’s call and how much of it was the Mara brothers?
As long as Chris is in the FO, accountability will always be murky.
Yep. That's the problem.
How accountable can we hold Gettleman for the Eli decision without knowing how much of it was in his hands.
Yeah the problem with that is how much of that was Gettleman’s call and how much of it was the Mara brothers?
As long as Chris is in the FO, accountability will always be murky.
I think DG and Mara were co-invested in the decision to keep Eli.
Mara because of the obvious reasons. And Gettleman because he sketched out how Eli could help with the QB they were going to draft. And maybe DG thought he built enough to maybe catch lightening in a bottle one more time.
That always seems to be one of the chapters in the "Giants Way". Pray that the football gods give you another crack at it. Alas, they haven't recognized they spent all of that capital in 2008 and 2011.
Ernie Accorsi - 9 years as GM before retiring and passing the torch to Jerry Reese.
Jerry Reese - 11 years as GM before he was fired and Mara picked a former Assistant GM, Gettleman.
Before Gettleman hiring, that's 29 years of Giants' GMs and Reese was the only one who was fired. And don't forget that the Giants kept Reese for 11 years and two years after TC was fired.
I agree with those that say this year they will fire the DC and/or the OC...and next year will be the year they fire Shurmur. But I just don't see them making a move with Gettleman this year or next, unless they force "voluntary" retirement on him. (Don't forget that at 68, DG is the oldest GM in Giants history.)
Let's see what happens though, jury is still out.
The jury is still out? How many times does he have to punt on 4th down when he should go for it and go for it on 4th down when he should punt it? How many timeouts does he need to blow on dopey coach's challenges? How many timeouts does he need to take with him into the locker room at halftime? How many times does he have to abandon the running game with Saquon Freaking Barkley on his roster? How many roster spots does he need to save for the Tanneys, Stupars, and Hillimans of the world?
The jury is IN -- Shurmur is the worst Giants head coach since Ray Handley.
Put the pressure on. The team has to start beating these two teams and having him come back 0-4 against them is going to effect the team going forward with him imo. Let's see if he can win a big game and Philly is kind of in a little turmoil.
'they had the high umbrella ' or something. Just very passive and neutral . By the numbers
Not considering other factors and not giving the D any respect. Honestly a horrid day on O as well.
The one thing I think that makes it unlikely is that my understanding is that coach contracts are guaranteed. Mara may actually still be paying for McAdoo, so would he be willing to eat another coach contract halfway through? Remember, they gave Shurmur a 5 year contract when he was hired, so they'd have to eat or buyout 3 years of the deal
1. Hiring Shurmur
2. Signing Beckham
3. Keeping Eli when he TWICE could have let him walk for cap savings
Shurmur has been an atrocity at coach, but it's not like Gettleman's done a good job either.
And again, the GM and head coach should sink or swim together.
Nah, they shouldn’t. This Gettleman take is a throwing the baby out with the bath water situation.
Nope. Not proven. Run early and often
Let's also say that PS costs them a couple games (a prospect that I'm more willing to accept as the season goes by). In the winter of 2020 you fire PS and hope that some well known commodity shakes loose somewhere to take over the head coaching spot and take this team to the next level.
You hate Jints central, but ownership isn't about to change. You better hop on board the hope train, b/c you are going to be one miserable Giants fan for the foreseeable future b/c the Giants aren't about to change the way they do business.
I understand rational and a patience approach are not something fans of franchises steeped in losing for extended periods embrace. But fact is Shurmur has only been here for 23 games
If there would be a continual decline in performance over the next 9 games, we’ll then there is legitimate evidence to support the theory of change.
But I wonder if this coach had some play makers on defense if his end of game management would be so questionable.
Isn’t it possible that going for it on 4 and 18 was motivated by the idea he didn’t t believe his defense would get the ball back if Cards we’re inclined to be aggressive in going for a game clinching first down.
But that if he did turn the ball over in scoring position the Cardinals would be conservative in their approach settling for a FG.
I understand fans motivated on what they have seen in the most recent games in making their judgements are not prone to patience.
But stranger things have happened in sports than the Giants starting to eliminate some of these mistakes and putting a winning streak together.
The Buffalo home opener was disappointing and the end of the Eli era and this past game stings because it was a game they were actually favored to win...and 26 was back. They did have two chances to win in the 4th quarter and likely do win without the rookie's turnovers.
As a fan base we are finally seeing a youth movement that includes an exciting young mobile quarterback and a return to the 3-4 defense. A foundation has been laid and expectations need to be set accordingly. Lame duck/hot seat coaching staffs and fan/media pressure aren't conducive to growth and improvement. The offensive and defensive coaches and their schemes have pelts on the wall and are proven to be successful in this league. The ST have performed thus far.
This team will improve and likely win a game or two they "shouldn't" this year and will continue to be inconsistent and make the kind of errors that causes them to lose a game or games they "should" win.
Calm the fuck down, shut the fuck up and stand it like a man.
- 2-5 this season
- 7-16 since the start of 2018
- 10-29 since the start of 2017
- 43-68 since Sandy
We talk about the Handley and Reeves years like they were the Dark Ages, but those years were the Renaissance compared to what we've been watching since 2012.
This is the worst stretch of Giants football in 40 years.