Engram potential trade bait?

He's not mentally tough enough and he can't block or stay healthy. I wasn't a fan of drafting a tweener TE and I still don't like his lack of game to game impact.

just trying to stir shit up

Why would they trade a dynamic playmaker on his rookie contract?

No way

is if a team is offering a 1st round pick. They just drafted a QB 6th overall who we hope is our franchise QB. Now is not the time to start getting rid of his weapons unless the offer is solid.

that i'm sure they'll use - I think they give EE every chance to show he can be healthy since it's really the only thing holding him back from being a top 5 NFL TE.

If he can't - the Giants will have a tough call on their hands.

He's not going anywhere this year.

He is going to want a big contract and frankly I don't think he is worth it. He is essentially a big play YAC WR. I'd much prefer a tight end who can catch the tough seam routes that are very much sought after in today's NFL. He's essentially a one trick pony, tremendous in crossing routes for YAC, but he doesn't make tough catches and the tight end needs to be a chain mover.

but at some point we have to stop trading all of our good, but flawed, players away.

Holy Hell

Him to WR I say

so Giants have an option for the 2021 season.

I think the smarter option would be to lock him up long term after this season. He's the type of player that really could go onto another team and thrive, a la Linval Joseph.

be surprised if he's traded. I wouldn't even consider doing so for anything less than a high second. Even that might not be enough. Despite some drops, he's a dynamic playmaker. They obviously like K. Smith, but he isn't EE.

Guy drops two balls and everyone wants to trade him.

In comment 14642238 giants#1 said:

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so Giants have an option for the 2021 season. I think the smarter option would be to lock him up long term after this season. He's the type of player that really could go onto another team and thrive, a la Linval Joseph.

Tend to agree.

shows a lot of potential at times but way too inconsistent. Plus the giants don't seem to be able to use him effectively. Hell this team still doesn't know how to get the ball to SB in space.

I think at some point, we need to try to build a talent base here. We can't keep shipping away every single player with talent.

Engram is a nice pass game weapon. Our WR group is unspectacular at best - do we really want to start stripping Jones of more targets now?

Not sure we need to keep tearing everything down. That phase should be pretty much overwith now.

In comment 14642236 GiantsRage2007 said:

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Holy Hell

Exactly. This is a massive rebuild. Two players off limits: Barkley and Jones.

I think people are underestimating just how big of a job this rebuild is.

In comment 14642230 Zeke's Alibi said:

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He is going to want a big contract and frankly I don't think he is worth it. He is essentially a big play YAC WR. I'd much prefer a tight end who can catch the tough seam routes that are very much sought after in today's NFL. He's essentially a one trick pony, tremendous in crossing routes for YAC, but he doesn't make tough catches and the tight end needs to be a chain mover.

What do you consider 'good value'? A 1st? 3rd? 5th?

Also keep in mind that elite TEs, which he's shown flashes of being, are paid substantially less than top WRs. Kelce gets $9.4M per year, which is less than Sterling Shepard. The top WRs are now pushing $20M per.

Am mixed on him too. Still wouldn't deal him.

Two things:

Giants aren't using him to his best abilities. This isn't an Eli or Daniel fault. It's coaching/Playcalling.

He gets nicked up often which bugs the hell out of me. But he would have less wear on his body if they stopped using him as an in-line TE.

Also has to overcome being drafted by Reese and Ross

And in spite of improvements in his blocking just doesn't have the size to be an in-line TE. I love his game when it works but he requires special treatment in the offensive scheme to be effective. I don't necessarily want to trade him but we need a few more top players on both the OL and defensive front 7 and for a first I'd consider it.

In comment 14642240 Brown Recluse said:

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Guy drops two balls and everyone wants to trade him.

It's BBI overreaction season, in full swing.

In comment 14642248 Vin_Cuccs said:

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In comment 14642236 GiantsRage2007 said: Quote: Holy Hell Exactly. This is a massive rebuild. Two players off limits: Barkley and Jones. I think people are underestimating just how big of a job this rebuild is.

I'd add just about everyone with talent on a rookie deal. Build around

Jones
Barkley
Hernandez
Engram
Slayton
Lawrence
Tomlinson
Hill
Carter
Ximines
Peppers
Baker
Ballentine
Love
Beal

Now, that doesn't mean all those guys are future pro bowlers or even starters, but they should be a part of the plan even if that includes them as depth.

If the offensive coaching staff can't develop an effective system to take advantage of Engram's and Barkley's strengths, then the offensive coaching staff needs to go.

I’d consider it.

I thought most of our players would be used differently but Shurmur keeps surprising.

I wouldn't part with Engram unless we were blown away with an offer - Jones needs people to throw to. we also don't know who will be the HC next season - if its someone other than Shumur they will want/need playmakers and hopefully utilize them better than what we are seeing now.

but EE is a guy I wouldn't sign to a 2nd contract unless it was very team friendly.

he just isn't reliable enough to make a key piece going forward.

In comment 14642248 Vin_Cuccs said:

Quote:

In comment 14642236 GiantsRage2007 said: Quote: Holy Hell Exactly. This is a massive rebuild. Two players off limits: Barkley and Jones. I think people are underestimating just how big of a job this rebuild is.

There are more players off limits than that. IMO its also Hernandez, Peppers, Zeitler, Lo Carter, Lawrence, Baker, Connely, maybe Slayton.

Also you just can't sell a servicable player without a decent backup. For example trading Soldier means replacing him with who?

Ugh.

Peppers is fucking useless. Can't cover, can't tackle.

I am certain that Belichick would be very interested in making a deal.

In comment 14642248 Vin_Cuccs said:

Quote:

In comment 14642236 GiantsRage2007 said: Quote: Holy Hell Exactly. This is a massive rebuild. Two players off limits: Barkley and Jones. I think people are underestimating just how big of a job this rebuild is.

How many teams have you actually seen do something like that?

In comment 14642283 jcn56 said:

Quote:

In comment 14642248 Vin_Cuccs said: Quote: In comment 14642236 GiantsRage2007 said: Quote: Holy Hell Exactly. This is a massive rebuild. Two players off limits: Barkley and Jones. I think people are underestimating just how big of a job this rebuild is. How many teams have you actually seen do something like that?

In one year? Probably none.

But the Giants are basically in the process of turning over the entire roster and I wouldn't be surprised if every Reese player (save Shepard and Engram) are gone by the start of the 2020 season. Look how few guys are left from the Reese era.

Problem is they've filled a lot of the holes with stop gaps (Remmers, Bethea, Golden) and the few vets that might've been longer term pieces have sucked (Ogletree, Peppers, Solder - though he's kind of a very expensive stopgap).

In comment 14642259 lawguy9801 said:

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In comment 14642240 Brown Recluse said: Quote: Guy drops two balls and everyone wants to trade him. It's BBI overreaction season, in full swing.

Glass cases of emotion

In comment 14642224 Joey in VA said:

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He's not mentally tough enough and he can't block or stay healthy. I wasn't a fan of drafting a tweener TE and I still don't like his lack of game to game impact.

This.

In comment 14642252 giants#1 said:

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In comment 14642230 Zeke's Alibi said: Quote: He is going to want a big contract and frankly I don't think he is worth it. He is essentially a big play YAC WR. I'd much prefer a tight end who can catch the tough seam routes that are very much sought after in today's NFL. He's essentially a one trick pony, tremendous in crossing routes for YAC, but he doesn't make tough catches and the tight end needs to be a chain mover. What do you consider 'good value'? A 1st? 3rd? 5th? Also keep in mind that elite TEs, which he's shown flashes of being, are paid substantially less than top WRs. Kelce gets $9.4M per year, which is less than Sterling Shepard. The top WRs are now pushing $20M per.

I'd move him for a 1st and I think that is feasible to get for him.

In comment 14642225 cjac said:

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just trying to stir shit up Why would they trade a dynamic playmaker on his rookie contract? No way

Lol because he isn’t a dynamic playmaker. Showing up one out of every 4 games doesn’t constitute a playmaker. Dropping passes etc. if we get a 2 for him I’d do it in a second.

Let's trade everyone for draft picks and then end up with even less talent, and then, when the team loses, get mad at the coaches for not making chicken salad out of chicken shit and fire them too.

some great games, some games he totally disappears. Nature of the beast. Useful luxury item.

I agree that Gettleman is probably not signing Engram to a second contract.

But I also doubt he's valued that highly around the league.

In comment 14642348 lawguy9801 said:

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Let's trade everyone for draft picks and then end up with even less talent, and then, when the team loses, get mad at the coaches for not making chicken salad out of chicken shit and fire them too.

You're smarter than this.

In comment 14642348 lawguy9801 said:

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Let's trade everyone for draft picks and then end up with even less talent, and then, when the team loses, get mad at the coaches for not making chicken salad out of chicken shit and fire them too.

Yes, and then count all of the available and unused cap dollars!

Would take a 1st and 3rd for me think about moving him.

And if Hunter Henry makes it to FA, i would make him the highest paid TE in the league as well. Him and Engram plus shep and Tate. Add a burner in the draft. Jones will have success.

I do know when he's on, he's really good. Unfortunately, he's only on, 1 out of every 3-4 games (inconsistent). Can't block, drops a lot of balls (not just this year, historically), and he can't stay on the field. Not sure this equates to sustained long term success.

In comment 14642374 JonC said:

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In comment 14642348 lawguy9801 said: Quote: Let's trade everyone for draft picks and then end up with even less talent, and then, when the team loses, get mad at the coaches for not making chicken salad out of chicken shit and fire them too. You're smarter than this.

I get your broader point with regards to BBI and the constant threads of this nature. But, Engram specifically could be in play given he's a pick of the previous regime, and is experiencing significant issues on the field.

but he can't seem to play through injuries and, as someone mentioned above, his game to game impact is minimal. He's made one impactful play this year but has a propensity for dropping passes in key situations and did it again this past Sunday.

I think all bets are off if we lose this Sunday and are 2-6 and basically eliminated. I could see several guys getting traded including Engram, JJ, Solder and Ogletree. Might get a second for Engram and it will be lower picks for others but I was fooled by this team. Thought the OL would be much better and thought the D would be also.

Now, how much of that is talent and how much of it is coaching? I am not sure but no point in having guys like Jenkins or Ogletree going forward. Solder may stay because his salary is just too big but, who knows! I could even see Shepard getting dealt. Another guy who is constantly hurt.

In comment 14642247 arcarsenal said:

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I think at some point, we need to try to build a talent base here. We can't keep shipping away every single player with talent. Engram is a nice pass game weapon. Our WR group is unspectacular at best - do we really want to start stripping Jones of more targets now? Not sure we need to keep tearing everything down. That phase should be pretty much overwith now.

I am not advocating a trade, I agree this team needs to add talent but I could see the giants letting him go and him succeeding elsewhere.

But the dolphins are trying the trade everyone and build a young team. Works in some sports. Let’s see where they are in 4 years. NE would give a 1 for him no doubt. Bill doesn’t care about picks as his window is short.

had more to do with culture-change than personnel/picks

NYG likes Engram a lot, both as a player and a team-guy.

I don't see the trade there, although ears should always be open because he is an ideal fit for some schemes that doesn't demand a lot of in line blocking

when is the light going to turn on and stay on? If we got an offer of a 1st I would trade him, anything less and I wouldnt. I keep wanting to see greatness but it's never consistent and he gets nicked up quite a bit. the talent is there, he seems like a good kid but has not reached that next level. At this point in his career I would have expected him to be better. I also dont think we use him correctly.

1st round pick or we keep him.

He's soft and an H-Back isn't all that important to the game. OL + DL + QB = contender and any deviation from that is a fools errand.

Picking Engram over Ramczyk while RR has developed into a quality RT was an unbelievably stupid decision.

In comment 14642225 cjac said:

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just trying to stir shit up Why would they trade a dynamic playmaker on his rookie contract? No way

Because you could probably get a decent return and he’s not reliable(always hurt/lots of drops)

either, which is the style of O we should be playing in the Northeast - especially with Barkley.

Time's running out to maximize Saquon. They need to capitalize on having an extraordinary RB. And they aren't. It's the #1 reason I want Shurmur gone yesterday.

that we don't have a lot of receiving talent after him. A rotating cast of players doesn't really bode well for a young QB. If we still had Odell, that would be another thing.

God, we would have been so much better off with Ramczyk.

But holding on to the balls that hit him in the hands is not one of them. He stretches the field and defenses have to account for him. Put Slayton out there and we have speed that must be accounted for as well. If they start to catch the balls they should. Could happen. We turned it around in the second half last season hoping we can do that again.

and use him better. He's not a blocking tight end, but surely he's hard to defend. Even though his hands are imperfect, Shurmur/Shula should find ways to get him open more, and Jones is more accurate than Eli. With Tate, EE, and (we hope) SShepherd, we ought to be able to connect on 8-10 yard passes ALL DAY LONG.

Is that really the case with Engram right now? He is on a rookie contract and has shown flashes of playmaking ability. At some point you stop trading players for picks if your plan is just to draft players to trade.

If this is really such a tear down now and the goal is just to accumulate picks, why not put Barkley and Jones out there as well?

In comment 14642224 Joey in VA said:

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He's not mentally tough enough and he can't block or stay healthy. I wasn't a fan of drafting a tweener TE and I still don't like his lack of game to game impact.

This!

if the answer is Yes? Then you don't trade him. If the answer is No, trading him now might make a lot of sense.

when it comes time to pick up his 5th year option. Either extend him or move him when he has 2 years of control left and get a high pick back. No urgency to do this now unless a 1st is coming back in return

If he's not a clear cut top 3 positional player like McCourty, Gronk, or Wilfork trade or don't resign them (Solder, Chandler Jones, Seymour).

but I have to say I chewed my son's butt off this past Sunday after the game. That was an uninspiring, miserable effort by Engram. He f..n quit after the dropped ball, missed 2-3 blocks that I saw. A complete non factor

If DG can get a decent pick for him...like a 2nd or 3rd I'd get rid of him in a heartbeat.

Plus you know he's going to want big money when his rookie deal is up. Definitely not worth it

but I have to say I chewed my son's butt off this past Sunday after the game. That was an uninspiring, miserable effort by Engram. He f..n quit after the dropped ball, missed 2-3 blocks that I saw. A complete non factor

If DG can get a decent pick for him...like a 2nd or 3rd I'd get rid of him in a heartbeat.

Plus you know he's going to want big money when his rookie deal is up. Definitely not worth it

So I wouldn't trade him for a 4th round pick. Doubt you can get more for him. Flashes don't mean much when you can't stay on the field and can't block. He also has stone hands. Another guy drafted because of his combine numbers. I think we are stuck with him.

In comment 14642441 mittenedman said:

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either, which is the style of O we should be playing in the Northeast - especially with Barkley. Time's running out to maximize Saquon. They need to capitalize on having an extraordinary RB. And they aren't. It's the #1 reason I want Shurmur gone yesterday.

I'm with you never liked the pick but we better get
a #1 for him

He’s one of them and on a rookie deal.

Trade him? Are you Fn nuts.

Here. Remember the drop downs and to go to 2020 to look at jenkins. If the Giants cut Jenkins they save 11.25m in cap space. Jenkins is gone. They will also likely get a 4th round comp pick for him. I don't see them getting more than a 5th round pick for him now, so not sure its worth trading him this season.

https://overthecap.com/salary-cap/new-york-giants/

Jenkins base salary this year is $10.15m. So if they trade him they save what is left of his base which would be over $5m. So its possible, but the Giants CBs are so bad. If they trade him they are tanking and the Giants don't have it in them to tank intentionally (its why they signed Golden Tate which makes no sense for a long term rebuild).

I would expect the Giants to get rid of Solder in the offseason. He would save $13m against the cap and he is garbage. You just need a mediocre starter to replace him. PFF has him ranked the 32nd left tackle in the league.

So getting rid of Jenkins and Solder in the offseason is $27m in cap space.

.

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Thinking outside the box, if Gettleman looks at tight end Evan Engram and sees a young player not firmly in the future plan

In comment 14642595 dd in Mass said:

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but I have to say I chewed my son's butt off this past Sunday after the game. That was an uninspiring, miserable effort by Engram. He f..n quit after the dropped ball, missed 2-3 blocks that I saw. A complete non factor If DG can get a decent pick for him...like a 2nd or 3rd I'd get rid of him in a heartbeat. Plus you know he's going to want big money when his rookie deal is up. Definitely not worth it

You realize he almost had his eye gouged out right?

I've become resigned to recognize that with the Giants he's become the personification of the classic ....



Simply, he'll never be the blocking tight end they want him to be. Some other team will use him as a receiver; we'll get a draft pick. Will that be a "win-win" ? I don't know.

In comment 14642662 KWALL2 said:

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He’s one of them and on a rookie deal. Trade him? Are you Fn nuts.

He’s a playmaker? When?

The guy has potential but he’s been a paper tiger to date.

You have to stop tearing down eventually to build a solid team.... This is why we have sucked for so long.

DG keeps trading away everyone in the org who got here before him. It almost seems personal with DG at this point. I mean, if we get blown away with a first round pick, sure, but otherwise he has more value here than converted to a late round pick who will have to be developed by the Shummur regime.... Good luck with that.

2017 ...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lGS_W_fWHPs

2018 ...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I_4jbiQV2TA

2019 ...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QtVOP3dy5sE

He's a mediocre as a tight end (in the complete sense), but not a paper tiger. If the Giants finally calculate that they can get good value for him at an area of greater need, I can live with that but don't "sour grape" the guy.

Have to keep our young talent, even if flawed.

We’d have close to no young talent worth keeping if we only keep players without flaws.

Are you in the "keep him it all costs" camp? If not, then what are the expectations for his second contract? If he isn't one to earn a second contract here, then DG might as well explore the market for him. Keep in mind the deadline to elect the 5th year option for Evan is in May 2020. The 5th year option for TEs in 2019 is $8.5M.

Is Evan worth $8.5M for 1 year?

For one year. Rather lock him into a 2nd contract at 6-7 per though.

Can’t keep sending off talent.

and forget about where he was picked in the 1st round. Currently, he plays 71% of the snaps. The same as his rookie year in 2017. He averages 11 yards per reception. The same as his rookie year. So far, he is on pace to match his rookie year which was 722 yards and 6 TDs.

If he replicates the same production 2 out of the 3 seasons that he has been in the league, then it would be a safe assumption that is what he will continue to produce. Despite BBI's proclamation that Engram is ready to dominate, I don't see dominance in his production. Outside of receiving, he brings nothing to the position. We all know he can't block despite his best effort.

So again, is 750 yards worth $8.5M for 1 year? Engram's agent has to do the basic math with $8.5M guaranteed for the 5th year option and the FT for TEs at $10.4M, then the starting numbers for any new contract includes $18M guaranteed.

In comment 14643045 Diver_Down said:

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and forget about where he was picked in the 1st round. Currently, he plays 71% of the snaps. The same as his rookie year in 2017. He averages 11 yards per reception. The same as his rookie year. So far, he is on pace to match his rookie year which was 722 yards and 6 TDs. If he replicates the same production 2 out of the 3 seasons that he has been in the league, then it would be a safe assumption that is what he will continue to produce. Despite BBI's proclamation that Engram is ready to dominate, I don't see dominance in his production. Outside of receiving, he brings nothing to the position. We all know he can't block despite his best effort. So again, is 750 yards worth $8.5M for 1 year? Engram's agent has to do the basic math with $8.5M guaranteed for the 5th year option and the FT for TEs at $10.4M, then the starting numbers for any new contract includes $19M guaranteed.

Corrected, because I can't do the math.

Gettleman seems more skilled in giving away talent than bringing it in. In free agency, teams don’t have enough time for this A-m-to-Z type of rebuild, so dealing good players for future maybe-good players insures a never-ending cycle of losing football. Does anyone really believe the Giants will do better than 5-11 this year or much better than that next year?

Is very good. I’ll take 60-700-6 from the Hback/TE any day. Pair him with a blocking TE who adds 30-300-4 and you are getting 90-1000-10 from theTE position and have nice mismatches to exploit. Engram is also a willing blocker, although best we can hope is he is average in that dept (he doesn’t have a true TE build).

hit him in the hands have hurt his value lately in particular. He gets separation then drops the ball. Sure handed you have to be or you should not be a receiver in the NFL.

In comment 14642290 giants#1 said:

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In one year? Probably none. But the Giants are basically in the process of turning over the entire roster and I wouldn't be surprised if every Reese player (save Shepard and Engram) are gone by the start of the 2020 season. Look how few guys are left from the Reese era. Problem is they've filled a lot of the holes with stop gaps (Remmers, Bethea, Golden) and the few vets that might've been longer term pieces have sucked (Ogletree, Peppers, Solder - though he's kind of a very expensive stopgap).

The problem is that none of the players they've acquired have particularly stood out with individual play. Definitely not the FA acquisitions, not the vets traded for (Peppers and Ogletree), and so far, the rookies drafted have been disappointing.

You know why other teams don't "blow it up" the way the Giants did? Because they know how hard it is to find talent in the NFL. They also know what roster turnover is - even when you find it, the average career length is so short that before you know it, you're replacing the guys who are performing well today.

So when you set out to blow it up and quickly acquire a full roster full of players, you find that available talent in the NFL ain't what you thought it was, and you've got a team full of garbage. Before you know it, it's 2-5 in October and your fans are already talking draft picks.