Let's be so disenfranchised that every thread needs a slam on the GM and Caoch!
Makes you feel better??
Are you really going to reason that because you don't like the Coach and GM that they are fair game for any negative post on any thread? If that's the predominant thought, no wonder so many of you sound like whiny cunts who supposedly have all the answers.
I have never, ever suggested that I have all the answers
But the one thing I do know is that Pat Shurmur is a terrible head coach - something that you said yourself after last Sunday's debacle, so I'm not quite sure why you've got your knickers in a twist about this thread.
Now you are trying to be some beacon of positivity, give me a fucking break.
Complain and bitch?? Or point out idiotic posts and posters.
I'm just wondering why if the team pisses you guys off so much that you continue to post here. A misery loves company rationale?
Hell, the last few days have seen posts by "rational" posters outlining exactly what needs to be done to be successful.
Of course I'm going to point out the delusion of that. It's like a huge circle jerk with one hand on the buddies cock and the other hand on a pitchfork.
I'll predict 10-6 next year too. Gives me a reason to be optimistic until it's not time to be optimistic.
It's just the opposite end of the spectrum of predicting everybody should be fired or cut every single year, which will be more of the same miserable existence next year.
It's kind of like The Force. Balance. Glass half empty, glass half full, yada yada yada.
I'll predict 10-6 next year too. Gives me a reason to be optimistic until it's not time to be optimistic.
It's just the opposite end of the spectrum of predicting everybody should be fired or cut every single year, which will be more of the same miserable existence next year.
It's kind of like The Force. Balance. Glass half empty, glass half full, yada yada yada.
LOL. Oh, my mistake, when you predicted 10-6 you didn't actually think that the Giants would go 10-6, you did it just to balance to the naysayers. You really knew that we'd be awful again but just didn't feel like saying that.
I have an alternate theory.....it's that your full of shit, and the truth is that you looked at this roster and thought it was really good. Which shows you don't know much about football, because it was obvious to all the smart posters on this board that a team with our defense wasn't going anywhere this year.
Just the dim ones and ones who intentionally troll.
And when the Giants start doing well, those guys inexplicably disappear!
Yeah the dim bulbs that saw this season coming a mile away.
I rather be a dim bulb than a flip flopping hypocrite who argues vehemently that playing Jones this year is not necessarily a good thing, or some other obtuse vague pedantic variation of that thought then starts a thread about how jones has breathed life back into the season.
The NFL and parity is built for teams to go from worst to first. With a couple of lucky bounces, it happens every year. We had retooled the roster enough that I didn't know what we were going to go.
Just like the fire everybody crowd who predicted the demise of Eli, the firing of Coughlin, etc... You'll eventually be right if you keep saying the same thing over and over :)
Like the Fire Coughlin crowd that started every season circa 2006....
you probably were in middle school when Eli and Coughlin were winning Superbowls. Am I close? High school maybe?
You don't know any other team than Coughlin or Eli, and in your adult life, you associate losing with them because it's all you know. It's understandable to want them gone.
Just remember this lesson in disarray, too, when the Giants go through another cycle of good again, and then bad again.
RE: Like the Fire Coughlin crowd that started every season circa 2006....
you finally got it. Grass is greener, isn't it? Beautiful from my view. Smell the roses.
I dont get why your taking it his whole thread back to this argument. If Coughlin was still able to coach I think he would be coaching right now.
If anything this whole debacle has shown that the whole band aide needs to be ripped off all at once and change needs to be quicker not a slow death by taking one half measure over another.
The transition stages always suck, but they are necessary. If DG came in cleaned house on day 1 instead of prolonging this whole thing It wouldnt be that hard to understand what the hell has been going on.
really prolong it? 8 weeks? 1 season? Is that unreasonable to evaluate, in person, what you have? I don't think so.
He came in and tried to build around the "core" (I use that term loosely) of players he had. They were clearly garbage, so 8 games into the season he started the full on tear down.
Seems like a pretty reasonable process to me. Not for the instant gratification generation, but for must that understand the human element of evaluation and management.
until we kicked him upstairs to run the front office. You don't let great football people walk. You just don't. And look at what we have now.
Doing a real bang up job in Jacksonville right now./s
I only bring this up because Coughlin and Jerry worked together to pick the groceries and its becoming terrible clear with Coughlin having a major say in Jacksonvilles groceries that that part of job has passed him by.
Well he can't be any worse that Gettleman, according to you guys....
Older guys are winning, older guys are losing, younger guys are winning, younger guys are losing.
At the end of the day, Football is still football. Give me a guy that's been around it for a long time and knows the ins and outs. It's not as complicated as the analytics crowd makes it out to be.
In other words, there is never a reason to make a change to an organization that is failing dismally because there's a chance it might not work out? I used to make the joke of St. Tommy, Coach for Life no matter how many losing seasons he piled up, but it's becoming clearer that you actually believe in that.
I think the team of Coughlin as president of Football Operations
for 3 years straight, with arguably a better roster - he was finished as a coach, and isn't exactly tearing it up in Jacksonville in his new role. He was a great NY Giant, so I will always remember him fondly. For me, same goes for Reese.
I usually like FMiC posts most of the time, but he does come off as a know it all and has been wrong plenty, just like the rest of us. Heck, I remember he stated in no uncertain terms multiple time that Rich Seubert would never play again after breaking his leg...........
RE: I think the team of Coughlin as president of Football Operations
for 3 years straight, with arguably a better roster - he was finished as a coach, and isn't exactly tearing it up in Jacksonville in his new role. He was a great NY Giant, so I will always remember him fondly. For me, same goes for Reese.
I usually like FMiC posts most of the time, but he does come off as a know it all and has been wrong plenty, just like the rest of us. Heck, I remember he stated in no uncertain terms multiple time that Rich Seubert would never play again after breaking his leg...........
I'd argue that he had the worst roster during those years, that he actually got the MOST out of some of those dudes (Flowers best year was his rookie year), Pugh, and Richberg.
If we'd have kept Coughlin and given him the defense that was given to McAdoo, we would have been better.
The 2015 Giants were 6th in the NFL in scoring. Since then? We've been 26th, 30th, 16th, and currently 25th. Coughlin was an offensive guy. The offense wasn't a problem under him.
The 2015 Giants were 6-10, and of those 10 games they lost, 7 of them they were tied or had the lead in the final two minutes.
Coughlin made chicken salad out of chicken shit those years.
I'm not here to be a "know-it-all". I actually tell others not to be, either. That's my main complaint. If we just do a tear down, we'll be good. Ummmm. If we just pick Darnold we'll be good...
I know my limitations in being right or wrong, but on a board where we're seeing "blueprints" on how to succeed almost daily now, I'm wondering why the fuck all of you armchair GM's are wallowing on BBI instead of earning a living in the NFL!
Coughlin did not forget how to coach/gameplan offense. You want to talk consistent? That's consistent.
Where this team turned sour was when they made Coughlin change his tried and true offense and fire Gilbride, after taking Reese's side and pondering "Why did it take us so long to see that Jernigan can play?" -John Mara 2013
St. Tommy was totally gonna turn it around the next year!
So another question would be, did Spagnolo himself turn the defense around from 30th in the NFL to 2nd in one season, or could it have been something else...
Plain and simple. Anyone besides Coughlin would have been canned after 2013.
They dumped Gilbride's "tried and true" offense after 2013 because it was fucking putrid that year. 28th in both yardage and scoring.
What you are arguing is essentially that any coach that has ever won a championship should be granted lifetime tenure because, hey, he didn't forget how to coach!
RE: RE: St. Tommy was totally gonna turn it around the next year!
Plain and simple. Anyone besides Coughlin would have been canned after 2013.
They dumped Gilbride's "tried and true" offense after 2013 because it was fucking putrid that year. 28th in both yardage and scoring.
What you are arguing is essentially that any coach that has ever won a championship should be granted lifetime tenure because, hey, he didn't forget how to coach!
The core of players deteriorated and they could no longer run 5 and 7 step drops because the offensive line failed.
The offensive scheme did not fail. The line did. Oh, and apparently we didn't insert Jernel Jernigan enough.
Why isn't Coughlin still coaching if he was still so razor-sharp at it? Gene told me he'd have his pick of NFL coaching jobs about 15 minutes after he was let go.
Since the players are irrelevant, how did we ever fire Spagnolo?
Why isn't Coughlin still coaching if he was still so razor-sharp at it? Gene told me he'd have his pick of NFL coaching jobs about 15 minutes after he was let go.
He would have been a hell of a lot better than any garbage we've had in here since. And he might have even made the transition to the next era a little smoother.
But the core of players improved significantly in 2014-15?
He took the 30th ranked defense in 2015 and turned it into the 2nd ranked defense in 2016! Coaching magic!
But wait - those guys are all a bunch of malcontents who sucked! Because, see, I've been assured that Reese was the worst GM ever and left poor, poor Dave Gettleman with absolutely nothing.
Playing the ranking game goes both ways -- MacAdoo comes in and the offense jumps into the top 10.
If we're really going to play that game, Ben MacAdoo oversaw the most wins as Giant head coach since 2008.
Oh really, McAdoo the coordinator was responsible for the offense bouncing back?
Why don't the numbers of his two years as head coach reflect that? I think Tom Coughlin's numbers throughout his 14 years do actually back his claim up.
RE: RE: Since the players are irrelevant, how did we ever fire Spagnolo?
He took the 30th ranked defense in 2015 and turned it into the 2nd ranked defense in 2016! Coaching magic!
But wait - those guys are all a bunch of malcontents who sucked! Because, see, I've been assured that Reese was the worst GM ever and left poor, poor Dave Gettleman with absolutely nothing.
Maybe with a leader in the locker room, somebody could have controlled those personalities and not let it get to that phase.
Those two titles did not establish a sustainable model to follow. Neither of those was a great team.
How is that not abundantly clear?
If it wasn't a sustainable model, how did they do it twice?
5/7 years playoffs during that time frame. Started 6-2 nearly every single season during that time, and into 2012 as well. Seemed consistent and sustainable to me if we had just restocked the offensive line. Something you yourself used to band the drum about circa 2009-2010, Terps.
He could just jump to another team, become a special consultant, or hop upstairs if he needed a break....
You're right of course - Parcells always took the easy way out, what with taking over the 1-15 Patriots, the 1-15 Jets, and the 5-11 Cowboys. Always the path of least resistance......
Particularly the second one, which you'll remember was a 9-7 team that won something like 7 games on 4th quarter comebacks. They were actually outscored that season. By every metric the worst team to ever win the Super Bowl.
The Giants don't know how to operate in today's NFL. They've been lapped by two direct competitors in the division, and their response was to hire Gettleman and Shurmur. Oof.
you probably were in middle school when Eli and Coughlin were winning Superbowls. Am I close? High school maybe?
You don't know any other team than Coughlin or Eli, and in your adult life, you associate losing with them because it's all you know. It's understandable to want them gone.
Just remember this lesson in disarray, too, when the Giants go through another cycle of good again, and then bad again.
Wrong again. I was 12 when the Giants won the Super Bowl in 86. So my guess is I've actually got more perspective on the team than you do.
Let's be honest, if the Giants did go 10-6 or better this year you're be the FIRST guy here startly weekly "I told you so threads." Can you even deny that? So it's only fair for you to eat some shit about how incredibly wrong about the team (and Eli) your'e been for YEARS now. I mean, you literally predicted an "Eli revenge tour" for each of the past two season when the rest of the planet could see the guy was cooked.
So maybe you don't know what your'e talking about and should have a bit of humility for once. Cause your'e track record on this site the past few years is as bad worse than anyone else's.
RE: They did it twice because Eli Manning miracled their asses to them
Particularly the second one, which you'll remember was a 9-7 team that won something like 7 games on 4th quarter comebacks. They were actually outscored that season. By every metric the worst team to ever win the Super Bowl.
The Giants don't know how to operate in today's NFL. They've been lapped by two direct competitors in the division, and their response was to hire Gettleman and Shurmur. Oof.
There was no miracle about either of those teams. They were mentally tough and prepared.
They didn't have 13 pro-bowlers like the 2007 Dallas Cowboys, or the League MVP like the 2011 Green Bay Packers.
They were mentally tough, and prepared TEAMS, that pulled the absolute most out of inferior rosters.
That's a testament to Coughlin.
I can't believe there is an argument about whether Coughlin was a good
coach or not. He was an exceleent coach, he also won at Jax. You don't get lucky winning 2 SB's.
Also why are some tying DG to Coughlin. Moving on from Coughlin was the clean break, DG is supposed to be the new regime. Why replace him after 1.5 seasons? That isn't enough time to rebuild anything.
you probably were in middle school when Eli and Coughlin were winning Superbowls. Am I close? High school maybe?
You don't know any other team than Coughlin or Eli, and in your adult life, you associate losing with them because it's all you know. It's understandable to want them gone.
Just remember this lesson in disarray, too, when the Giants go through another cycle of good again, and then bad again.
Wrong again. I was 12 when the Giants won the Super Bowl in 86. So my guess is I've actually got more perspective on the team than you do.
Let's be honest, if the Giants did go 10-6 or better this year you're be the FIRST guy here startly weekly "I told you so threads." Can you even deny that? So it's only fair for you to eat some shit about how incredibly wrong about the team (and Eli) your'e been for YEARS now. I mean, you literally predicted an "Eli revenge tour" for each of the past two season when the rest of the planet could see the guy was cooked.
So maybe you don't know what your'e talking about and should have a bit of humility for once. Cause your'e track record on this site the past few years is as bad worse than anyone else's.
I honestly had forgotten I predicted 10-6. I almost never go on those "predict the record" or "Players only" threads because they are an exercise in futility. Who cares?
As far as Eli, no he never bounced back to the level I thought he would if he had some help. But are you really going to argue that I've been wrong about Eli for years?
I've predicted almost every move this franchise has made in regards to Eli. Wrong is a relative term.
RE: RE: They did it twice because Eli Manning miracled their asses to them
Particularly the second one, which you'll remember was a 9-7 team that won something like 7 games on 4th quarter comebacks. They were actually outscored that season. By every metric the worst team to ever win the Super Bowl.
The Giants don't know how to operate in today's NFL. They've been lapped by two direct competitors in the division, and their response was to hire Gettleman and Shurmur. Oof.
There was no miracle about either of those teams. They were mentally tough and prepared.
They didn't have 13 pro-bowlers like the 2007 Dallas Cowboys, or the League MVP like the 2011 Green Bay Packers.
They were mentally tough, and prepared TEAMS, that pulled the absolute most out of inferior rosters.
That's a testament to Coughlin.
No miracles? Ok...I guess the one I witnessed Eli engineer in person in New England didn't happen. Or the one in Dallas, or any of the 25 things that on their own could have kept the Giants out of the playoffs (remember Cruz being ruled as giving himself up in Arizona?).
The Giants were already descending when they won that Super Bowl. It was a middling team that got hot at the right time behind a clutch QB at the peak of his power.
But even if you disagree with my take on that, here's something you can't disagree with: that was 8 years ago. We're as far removed from that as the '86 team was from having John McVay as head coach. In other words, it's an eternity.
It's time to move the fuck on.
RE: Tom Coughlin made mistakes along the OL and had a bad 2015
I find it odd there would be NYG fans who would have a bad thing to say about the guy.
This is the corner a lot of these guys paint themselves into.
In their minds, the entire organization is a joke and to listen to the rants, it has been that way throughout history except for 4 seasons, and even then, lo and behold, we were lucky in two of them!!
Let's also face the fact that most of these chuckleheads have an axe to grind with Gettleman because of the way he was hired. They hated him since day 1 because of it. All you have to do is look at the archives. He's Accorsi's puppet!!
I've predicted almost every move this franchise has made in regards to Eli. Wrong is a relative term.
Yeah, you have. And the franchise has been a complete embarrassment. With few exceptions (trading Beckham the most notable), their major decisions have all been wrong.
RE: They did it twice because Eli Manning miracled their asses to them
Particularly the second one, which you'll remember was a 9-7 team that won something like 7 games on 4th quarter comebacks. They were actually outscored that season. By every metric the worst team to ever win the Super Bowl.
The Giants don't know how to operate in today's NFL. They've been lapped by two direct competitors in the division, and their response was to hire Gettleman and Shurmur. Oof.
I know you're an analytics/stats guy now but I'm surprised by seeing you spout this very bottom of the barrel commentary regarding the 2011 season. First off, you worship the ground BB walks on and have said basically you'd trade the entire franchise for him. That team beat him twice.
In a quarterback driven league, the 2011 Giants schedule included
Brady 2x
Rodgers 2x
Romo 2x
Brees
Ryan
It also included the very early version of the Seattle Seahawks teams that went to back to back Super Bowls. The Rex Ryan version of the Jets while they were still good, and the 49ers defense 2x.
The 2011 Giants team faced a gauntlet of a schedule based on modern NFL standards.
One, that the Giants would keep him. Which was obvious to anyone who knew Mara that of course they'd keep him.
Two, that he had plenty left in the tank and he was about to go on a revenge tour and prove everyone wrong. You could not have been more wrong about that.
I remember Ahmad Bradshaw in Buffalo in 2007 hitting people so hard the letters in the NY helmet cracked. I remember Brandon Jacobs knocking Charles Woodson out on the first play of the game in -4 degrees in Green Bay in the NFC Championship. Strahan, Tuck, Osi and Pierce harrassing the sh-t out of offenses.
I remember in 2008 going into Pittsburgh and physically beating the hell out of them.
There were a lot of memories like those. Yeah, Eli was a HUGE part of those TEAMS. Mentally and Physically TOUGH TEAMS. He didn't have to do it by himself.
The 2011 Giants didn't win 10+ games and were outscored in the regular season. They are the only Super Bowl winner to check either of those boxes. Rationalize and spin that however you want, but those are facts.
The 2011 Giants didn't win 10+ games and were outscored in the regular season. They are the only Super Bowl winner to check either of those boxes. Rationalize and spin that however you want, but those are facts.
Why does that have to be rationalized or spun??
They were SB Champions, beating the perennial Super Bowl Champions.
The Jets do that and it transforms the direction of the league. The Giants do that and their own fans use it as evidence of their mediocrity.
You really can't make this shit up. Well, actually you can. And do.
The 2011 Giants didn't win 10+ games and were outscored in the regular season. They are the only Super Bowl winner to check either of those boxes. Rationalize and spin that however you want, but those are facts.
They won the games they needed to. Including being down 2 TD's with under 5 to go in Dallas, which still required a blocked FG by JPP.
And the 2010 Superbowl Champion Green Bay Packers don't even make the postseason if Desean Jackson doesn't return that punt against the Giants. Every SB winner has to get breaks. It's part of it.
I remember Ahmad Bradshaw in Buffalo in 2007 hitting people so hard the letters in the NY helmet cracked. I remember Brandon Jacobs knocking Charles Woodson out on the first play of the game in -4 degrees in Green Bay in the NFC Championship. Strahan, Tuck, Osi and Pierce harrassing the sh-t out of offenses.
I remember in 2008 going into Pittsburgh and physically beating the hell out of them.
There were a lot of memories like those. Yeah, Eli was a HUGE part of those TEAMS. Mentally and Physically TOUGH TEAMS. He didn't have to do it by himself.
Fun memories, but I'm having a hard time understanding what they have to do with a single thing happening right now over 10 years later.
The 2011 Giants didn't win 10+ games and were outscored in the regular season. They are the only Super Bowl winner to check either of those boxes. Rationalize and spin that however you want, but those are facts.
Well they could and maybe should have beaten Green Bay at home for their 10th win but got royally screwed by the refs on that Ballard TD right?
I remember Ahmad Bradshaw in Buffalo in 2007 hitting people so hard the letters in the NY helmet cracked. I remember Brandon Jacobs knocking Charles Woodson out on the first play of the game in -4 degrees in Green Bay in the NFC Championship. Strahan, Tuck, Osi and Pierce harrassing the sh-t out of offenses.
I remember in 2008 going into Pittsburgh and physically beating the hell out of them.
There were a lot of memories like those. Yeah, Eli was a HUGE part of those TEAMS. Mentally and Physically TOUGH TEAMS. He didn't have to do it by himself.
Fun memories, but I'm having a hard time understanding what they have to do with a single thing happening right now over 10 years later.
Just things I remembered in terms of Eli Manning miracle'ing the Giants to two Superbowls. Those Coughlin coached teams were so much more than Eli Manning. I should have quoted Terps but felt it was within the flow of the discussion.
The Giants won those two titles and they were phenomenal experiences. Unfortunately, as we've all come to learn at tremendous cost as fans, the people running the Giants were completely unable or unwilling to self-scout and ask themselves WHY they won those titles. And was that "WHY" something they could actually recreate?
The proof is in the pudding...the Giants are approaching 30 games under .500 since that second title.
And yeah, I know...it's all the fault of two ghouls named Reese and Ross. Everyone else in the building did a great job, but those two guys sabotaged everything...and continue somehow to sabotage things almost two years after they were fired.
I'm not beating up this team's past accomplishments. I'm pointing out that they were not something we should have been trying to recreate because it would be akin to catching lightning in a bottle. That never occurred to ownership, and as a result we are where we are...nowhere. We are no closer to the next title now than we were in 2014. Just spinning our wheels so deeply that we confuse nostalgia and reality.
The Giants won those two titles and they were phenomenal experiences
They were such phenomenal experiences that years later, you are arguing about the 2011 team being the worst ever to win a Super Bowl. As if that has any pertinence.
I'm not beating up this team's past accomplishments. I'm pointing out that they were not something we should have been trying to recreate because it would be akin to catching lightning in a bottle. That never occurred to ownership, and as a result we are where we are...nowhere. We are no closer to the next title now than we were in 2014. Just spinning our wheels so deeply that we confuse nostalgia and reality.
What we had from 2004-2012 was sustainable, and it was working. When we were winning, it was because we were winning the battles in the trenches. Which is exactly what Tom Coughlin said in his inaguaral PC, that we needed to get back to being physical, inflicting our will on people, and winning the battle on both sides at the LOS. And that's the type of football we played from 2004 to 2012. By 2011, the lines were falling apart. THAT was what was not sustainable. But it could have been had the front office had the foresight to keep them stocked.
Instead, we changed gears to basketball on grass post 2013.
those title teams is stupid. Let's just acknowledge the obvious as of noon Thursday 10/24/2019: this organization is broken from the top on down. And I don't have much faith in it getting turned around anytime soon until Mara takes a long look in the mirror & examines WTF has happened to this organization in the past 7 years. No more half measures. An entire cleansing is needed.
The Giants won those two titles and they were phenomenal experiences
They were such phenomenal experiences that years later, you are arguing about the 2011 team being the worst ever to win a Super Bowl. As if that has any pertinence.
It has enormous pertinence! Ownership was fooled into thinking they were running a well-oiled machine. They didn't ask any tough questions, they didn't self-scout, they didn't keep up with the league as it changed following the 2011 CBA. They just continued with the same approach, churning through sacrificial lambs - Gilbride, Fewell, Coughlin, McAdoo, Reese, Eli, (Bettcher soon) - as they reacted to failure after failure.
This team reacts to problems rather than proactively trying to create a winning program. I've been saying those exact words on this board for years.
of an entire cleansing isn't viable. And if it happens, you'd look at another could of years of bad football with no guarantee it will improve.
An entire cleansing in the salary cap era isn't an option. And even if you get rid of the HC and GM, if ownership is part of the problem, well, being naive to think you can get rid of them is putting it mildly.
We did a house cleaning. People didn't like the results, so now it isn't referred to as a house cleaning - it is referred to as a half-measure.
But that sort of follows the reasoning around here. we didn't draft Darnold last year and picked a RB, which was the worst possible move ever - Remember the "perfect storm" rants about the QB falling into our laps? But interestingly enough, that isn't the argument anymore. The argument is that we drafted Barkley instead of picking OL and edge rushers. Anyone know why that changed?
I'll give you a hint - something about seeing ghosts......
Ownership was fooled into thinking they were running a well-oiled machine. They didn't ask any tough questions, they didn't self-scout, they didn't keep up with the league as it changed following the 2011 CBA.
Read what Britt wrote. the team declined as their OL declined. and then they went a swath of drafts missing on almost every pick. What about that screams they were running a well-oiled machine? You don't even know what questions were asked, let alone "tough" ones.
The funny thing is that you listed about 8 scapegoats. all of who were dismissed, which is pretty damn hard to do when you run a well-oiled machine and refuse to make changes.
So in short, they didn't make changes, except for the many changes they made. Got it. Drafting shitty for a decade has a tangible impact. Is that really too hard a concept to grasp?
He still would have been a better pick than Barkley, but that aside I've listed the numerous preferable alternatives to Barkley many times. How's Lamar Jackson looking? Check out the clip below...if Gettleman had had the foresight to draft him (I suspect the Giants wouldn't have touched Jackson in any round of the draft) this board would be going fucking nuts over this guy. Link - ( New Window )
He still would have been a better pick than Barkley, but that aside I've listed the numerous preferable alternatives to Barkley many times. How's Lamar Jackson looking? Check out the clip below...if Gettleman had had the foresight to draft him (I suspect the Giants wouldn't have touched Jackson in any round of the draft) this board would be going fucking nuts over this guy. Link - ( New Window )
Wait - so all we need is a mobile QB??
If we picked Jackson, you'd either shit all over him or complain he wasn't be used "correctly".
But then again, thinking the Darnold pick is a better one than Barkley doesn't register as a stupid comment to you, so likely not much will.
I just think they need a change in the org structure. There are too many voices with control in the building. I think it has led to the numerous 180s the team has had to pull recently. It probably wont fix all the problems, but at least they will be pulling in one direction.
But at the end of the day, all I want is competitive competent football, don't really care how they get there.
on a team playing from behind is a recipe for disaster. Just look at him with the Ravens when he has to throw the ball, or are we just going to get a highlight reel of rushes??
Oh, I know they weren't running a well-oiled machine. Ownership didn't know it. Their answer to constant failure has been to find a fall guy. Let me walk you through the next 15 months:
January 2020 - Bettcher is fired
January 2021 - Shurmur and Gettleman are fired
Then they'll hire Abrams, and the cycle will start over.
on a team playing from behind is a recipe for disaster. Just look at him with the Ravens when he has to throw the ball, or are we just going to get a highlight reel of rushes??
Keep saying that. In the meantime a disaster is actually playing out in front of us with Barkley at running back.
not following the logic. You hate Shurmur and Gettleman, yet if they fire them, it will be just to have "fall guys"??
Here's the point you are at - the team will suck ass until they win. And every move will be the wrong one, even the ones you are advocating them to make.
In what world can they possibly not be in a lose-lose siyuation with you?
There are the people who think the Giants are well run, and those that don't. One side relies on excuse making and blaming people no longer in the building. The other can just point to the results on the field.
This team is 7-16 since Gettleman and Shurmur took over. By the end of this season that number will be around 10-22.
on a team playing from behind is a recipe for disaster. Just look at him with the Ravens when he has to throw the ball, or are we just going to get a highlight reel of rushes??
Keep saying that. In the meantime a disaster is actually playing out in front of us with Barkley at running back.
Man, you're all over this place.
The Giants 2011 Super Bowl wasn't statistically good enough for you, but we're now supposed to kick ourselves in the nuts over a guy who has played pretty well, was exposed in the playoffs, and doesn't seem well equipped to "pass" his team to victory in big games.
Here's the point you are at - the team will suck ass until they win. And every move will be the wrong one, even the ones you are advocating them to make.
The point I have been driving at a million different ways is that John Mara needs to get his head out of his ass and realize he needs a completely new approach. Gettleman and Shurmur both suck at their jobs, but they're symptoms of that fundamental problem.
There are the people who think the Giants are well run, and those that don't. One side relies on excuse making and blaming people no longer in the building. The other can just point to the results on the field.
This team is 7-16 since Gettleman and Shurmur took over. By the end of this season that number will be around 10-22.
That's it. The rest is bullshit.
I look at it as completely different sides.
One side realizes they don't have control over what the team does and tries to enjoy what they can from the times that the team has delivered.
The other side thinks they have the "blueprint" for success, thinks the entire organization is incompetent and is going to hammer the board daily on the way to change it, even if those "solutions" keep changing and sometime diametrically oppose one another.
wouldn't it be just easier to say you are frustrated and have no fucking clue what will work, or does that assault your sensibilities of loading up on cheap players, having a mobile QB and generating blueprints that don't work for any organization?
I don't know how much enjoyment you're actually finding in these Giants, because you guys spend an awful lot of time wrapped up in nostalgia. You both also sure do seem to be enjoying picking on Darnold, as if that somehow justifies the Barkley pick.
And if I wanted what was easier, I'd do what you and Britt do - just sway with the breeze.
I definitely fall on the glass half full side of things
but that's partly because I don't actually care all that much about what happens to my sports teams. I watch and follow them for entertainment (or lack thereof) and move on with my day. Losses don't bother me anymore, and even wins aren't as high as they used to be in my teens and 20's. I got older, other things are more important, and I know use sports to get a break from the day-to-day.
But the other factor is lack of information. I'm perfectly fine and happy admitting I don't have enough information to go on, and neither do most people on this board. I think there's too much that goes on behind close doors that we will never see, but have direct outcomes on decisions.
I do have the ability to be critical, such as finally losing all confidence in Shurmur after last week's debacle. But i'm not going to berate everyone with my frustrations, doesn't seem like its worth it because it won't change a damn thing.
This is kind of an interesting stroll down memory lane.....
When you read this, then you realize that AFTER this thread he took a 15-1 Panthers team to the Superbowl, it makes you wonder why the guy was such an awful hire from a fan's perspective.
Was anybody here that hated the Gettleman hire from day one on this thread? Not a callout, just curious as to what changed your mind if so?
You both also sure do seem to be enjoying picking on Darnold, as if that somehow justifies the Barkley pick.
If Darnold turns out to be a below average QB, the Barkley pick is justified.
I mean, we are talking about forgetting posts where the prefect storm existed for the Giants to turn the page from Eli and pick the QB sitting right there. I think the term "fireable offense" was used on bypassing this glorious opportunity.
Afterall, we could move on from Eli, get rid of his salary, pick Darnold and supplement it with guys in the trenches with the $$ saved from Eli.
And yet, what does that plan hinge on? Darnold actually being good.
And even if he were good, we'd probably get berated for whatever decision we'd make on his second contract......
You really shouldn't cast stones at flapping in the breeze
and the funny thing is, Gettleman's career seemed to be recognized by many on that thread who now seemingly act as if he just stepped into the game recently. The Panthers made it the focal point of the hiring:
Quote:
The Panthers chose Gettleman...
FatMan in Charlotte : 1/10/2013 8:22 am : link
because of his "long and decorated career". The announcement coming from them was a very good one talking about Gettleman's 15 year run where he has been with 5SB winners.
I haven't talked to anyone directly, but the finalists were Gettleman, Ross and some guy from the CFL who has madet he playoffs 19 years in a row (Popp, maybe?). They chose Gettleman for his experience and ability to work with more than just one NFL team at a high level. I think he edged Ross out on the experience criteria.
the discussions all start different and end in the same place
I definitely fall on the side of thinking that believes there is a serious problem with the way decisions in the organization are being made.
With the amount of available cap space upcoming and the seemingly premium draft picks that will likely be in hand once again, I struggle to see how anyone could be confident that the current GM/coach combination is the right answer. I can start to buy the "deserves another year" angle but my mind quickly shuts off that way of thinking. There are too many resources at stake to be concerned with what might be justifiably 'fair' or 'deserved' by the incumbents.
It's a tremendous opportunity to get things right or fuck them up for another 5 years. No more blaming the past or assigning specific mistakes to individuals. Plain and simple, who is best positioned to make the most of the resources in play?
and the funny thing is, Gettleman's career seemed to be recognized by many on that thread who now seemingly act as if he just stepped into the game recently. The Panthers made it the focal point of the hiring:
Quote:
The Panthers chose Gettleman...
FatMan in Charlotte : 1/10/2013 8:22 am : link
because of his "long and decorated career". The announcement coming from them was a very good one talking about Gettleman's 15 year run where he has been with 5SB winners.
I haven't talked to anyone directly, but the finalists were Gettleman, Ross and some guy from the CFL who has madet he playoffs 19 years in a row (Popp, maybe?). They chose Gettleman for his experience and ability to work with more than just one NFL team at a high level. I think he edged Ross out on the experience criteria.
That's one of the reasons I went searching for it. I just wondered what the consensus was when he left. Seemed like it was mostly that it was a loss, and that he was an integral part of our success.
and saying it all the time doesn't make it true. And if the only alternative was it then had to be a running back, I am pretty sure even that group of posters would have been smaller.
Since you argue with almost everybody, its very difficult to keep all those rants separated so I realize you try to neatly combine them by extrapolating your point over larger populations.
But its not working, unless of course you want to purposely want to come off as ranting...
RE: Tom Coughlin made mistakes along the OL and had a bad 2015
You both also sure do seem to be enjoying picking on Darnold, as if that somehow justifies the Barkley pick.
If Darnold turns out to be a below average QB, the Barkley pick is justified.
That's only true if those are the only two options. There was also the option to trade down and get more picks for a team with holes all over the roster, which would have been the smarter move.
Why is it that Gettleman, despite a long career, was only hired as a GM in two situations where his old boss was a "consultant"? Was he ever a candidate for anyone else? Did he ever interview for another team besides the Giants and the Panthers?
Seems odd for a guy you all swear is an utterly brilliant football mind.
One, that the Giants would keep him. Which was obvious to anyone who knew Mara that of course they'd keep him.
Two, that he had plenty left in the tank and he was about to go on a revenge tour and prove everyone wrong. You could not have been more wrong about that.
Hey, don't rule that Eli Manning Revenge Tour! It's right around the corner! I swear!
Here's an entry...turns out I gave the Giants too much credit because there's no way they finish 7-9.
Quote:
The excuses are already being built in for when they go 7-9 in 2019
Go Terps : 1/2/2019 6:48 pm : link
If you can go that far back for Chicago and call that part of their process, can we go that far back for us too? Because if you do, this was the second worst season we've had since 2003. The terrible seasons we had at the end of Coughlin's tenure...those still didn't get as bad as this one.
It's not a linear thing. You have to control for the fact that this league is set up to prop up bad teams and knock down good teams. There are rebuilding teams that have winning records. Go look at Seattle for an example of that.
If you start 1-7 and end up 5-11, and you didn't have some catastrophic injury or injuries...in today's NFL, you're a really bad team.
Just because we won 2 more games than the explosion year of 2017 doesn't mean we did well. More importantly it doesn't mean we're on the right track.
By the way "stalker" is used around these parts, I think I myself may have a problem. I certainly do go into certain threads to see what certain individuals have to say.
Does anyone want to hold an on-call video intervention for me?
You could tell me how my stalking has affected your lives in a negative manner, plus you can hurl all of the insults you want and I have to take it because it's my intervention I can't say doo doo
Why don't you worry about your own stupid comments before you worry about other people?
Irony, much? Cunty Chris the stalker at it again. Go stalk Greg again or something, weirdo.
You're a joke. You're also commenting on interactions I've had with OTHER posters, and I'm the weirdo/stalker?
Do me a favor, scroll back up through this thread and find the Uncle Jun Sopranos gif Terps posted and read the words carefully.
So, no comeback then? No surprise there.
There's nothing to come back from. If I cared to, I could go back to any Eli Manning or Odell Beckham thread from the last 1-2 years and expose you as a bumbling idiot, mouth-breather who knows nothing about football.
was a nice change up from Beckham's sit down with Lil Wayne on Sunday NFL Countdown the other day.
I'm glad there's somebody out there who can take solace in stuff like that. Personally, I'm looking forward to enjoying the games more, not the pre-game shows.
Besides being an asshole he wasn't worth the money.
But Gettleman even managed to fuck up trading him by paying him first. Gettleman got the job December 2017. He paid Beckham August 2018. Traded him March 2019. $16M in cap money gone. Great job.
RE: Look around the league at the teams that are changing GM's and Coaches
Older guys are winning, older guys are losing, younger guys are winning, younger guys are losing.
At the end of the day, Football is still football. Give me a guy that's been around it for a long time and knows the ins and outs. It's not as complicated as the analytics crowd makes it out to be.
Actually, the "analytics crowd" (by which, I assume you mean people who have a solid handle on things like logic and math) is trying to make it less complicated.
But then again, you made the poetic yet ridiculous statement the other day that you can't quantify OL play because it relies too much on camaraderie. Yeah, it's the "analytics crowd" trying to make it complicated.
with Gettleman as GM would be a pretty nice combo for a rebuild.
We don't get to add together their combined 15 wins over the past year and a half.
They're two sides of the same mediocre coin at this point. But yeah, by all means, let's double down on it. Might as well get Mike Sullivan to be HC, too.
RE: Beckham had to go, and we're seeing in Cleveland why
Besides being an asshole he wasn't worth the money.
But Gettleman even managed to fuck up trading him by paying him first. Gettleman got the job December 2017. He paid Beckham August 2018. Traded him March 2019. $16M in cap money gone. Great job.
Clevelands offensive line is a dumpster fire, Mayfield doesnt have enough time to get the ball to OBJ. OBJ isnt the problem with the Browns no matter how many bitter butt hurt giants fans feel that way.
Why isn't Coughlin still coaching if he was still so razor-sharp at it? Gene told me he'd have his pick of NFL coaching jobs about 15 minutes after he was let go.
He would have been a hell of a lot better than any garbage we've had in here since. And he might have even made the transition to the next era a little smoother.
Literally not a single NFL team agrees with you.
RE: RE: Beckham had to go, and we're seeing in Cleveland why
Besides being an asshole he wasn't worth the money.
But Gettleman even managed to fuck up trading him by paying him first. Gettleman got the job December 2017. He paid Beckham August 2018. Traded him March 2019. $16M in cap money gone. Great job.
Clevelands offensive line is a dumpster fire, Mayfield doesnt have enough time to get the ball to OBJ. OBJ isnt the problem with the Browns no matter how many bitter butt hurt giants fans feel that way.
Always excuses.
Glad the locker room reflects the front office and coaching staff.
Besides being an asshole he wasn't worth the money.
But Gettleman even managed to fuck up trading him by paying him first. Gettleman got the job December 2017. He paid Beckham August 2018. Traded him March 2019. $16M in cap money gone. Great job.
Clevelands offensive line is a dumpster fire, Mayfield doesnt have enough time to get the ball to OBJ. OBJ isnt the problem with the Browns no matter how many bitter butt hurt giants fans feel that way.
OBJ is just probably running the wrong routes like he did with Eli...
RE: This is kind of an interesting stroll down memory lane.....
When you read this, then you realize that AFTER this thread he took a 15-1 Panthers team to the Superbowl, it makes you wonder why the guy was such an awful hire from a fan's perspective.
Was anybody here that hated the Gettleman hire from day one on this thread? Not a callout, just curious as to what changed your mind if so? BBI: Dave Gettleman named Panthers' GM 1/9/13 - ( New Window )
Look at the first few posts in this thread and you'll find your answer.
I've said this repeatedly - it's not Gettleman that I have a problem with. On his own, I think he'd make a fine exec. It's that the Giants needed a makeover, they needed change in a big way. They barely bothered to get some views during the interview process, limiting themselves to Riddick as the only external candidate.
Why don't you worry about your own stupid comments before you worry about other people?
Irony, much? Cunty Chris the stalker at it again. Go stalk Greg again or something, weirdo.
You're a joke. You're also commenting on interactions I've had with OTHER posters, and I'm the weirdo/stalker?
Do me a favor, scroll back up through this thread and find the Uncle Jun Sopranos gif Terps posted and read the words carefully.
So, no comeback then? No surprise there.
There's nothing to come back from. If I cared to, I could go back to any Eli Manning or Odell Beckham thread from the last 1-2 years and expose you as a bumbling idiot, mouth-breather who knows nothing about football.
You sure about that? At the very least, same could be said about you (and plenty of others here) with how things turned out. Still waiting on that revenge tour, jerkoff.
Why isn't Coughlin still coaching if he was still so razor-sharp at it? Gene told me he'd have his pick of NFL coaching jobs about 15 minutes after he was let go.
He would have been a hell of a lot better than any garbage we've had in here since. And he might have even made the transition to the next era a little smoother.
Literally not a single NFL team agrees with you.
That's another one. Eli Revenge Tour. TC is going to be a coach again immediately and the teams will be 'lined up' at the chance to hire him.
It's so funny how a certain few like to thump their chest about being right on a football message board, when they've been wrong just as much as anyone else out there.
Hilarious (and utterly fantastic).
RE: Beckham had to go, and we're seeing in Cleveland why
Besides being an asshole he wasn't worth the money.
But Gettleman even managed to fuck up trading him by paying him first. Gettleman got the job December 2017. He paid Beckham August 2018. Traded him March 2019. $16M in cap money gone. Great job.
That may be at the top of the list why Gettleman should be relieved of his duties. Foolish.
I think we've discussed this before, but it bears repeating. This organization failed OBJ to an extent. I'm not saying he's not responsible for his actions - 100% - but the inability to manage personalities by this group of either old or inexperienced decision makers is poor. If you are going to come out and say "you don't quit on talent", then figure it out. Belichick has had rogue characters like Ocho, Moss, Dillon, etc and managed to fit them quite nicely into the culture. Even Brown, who was only there 10 days, was quiet as a mouse before the civil suite broke and he was let go...
but the Patriots are the rare example. There's far more instances of teams cutting or trading away a problematic player than there are keeping them and making it work.
I know everyone likes to compare every situation to WWBBD but I think its a somewhat pointless comparison and argument. He's one in a million and there's a lot that needs to happen before you can emulate what he's been able to accomplish in NE.
RE: RE: Beckham had to go, and we're seeing in Cleveland why
Besides being an asshole he wasn't worth the money.
But Gettleman even managed to fuck up trading him by paying him first. Gettleman got the job December 2017. He paid Beckham August 2018. Traded him March 2019. $16M in cap money gone. Great job.
That may be at the top of the list why Gettleman should be relieved of his duties. Foolish.
I think we've discussed this before, but it bears repeating. This organization failed OBJ to an extent. I'm not saying he's not responsible for his actions - 100% - but the inability to manage personalities by this group of either old or inexperienced decision makers is poor. If you are going to come out and say "you don't quit on talent", then figure it out. Belichick has had rogue characters like Ocho, Moss, Dillon, etc and managed to fit them quite nicely into the culture. Even Brown, who was only there 10 days, was quiet as a mouse before the civil suite broke and he was let go...
Could you imagine how productive OBJ would be if he had been drafted by the Patriots?
Belichick would have reigned him in right away, unlike Coughlin who turned a blind eye trying to save his job.
RE: Like the Fire Coughlin crowd that started every season circa 2006....
Besides being an asshole he wasn't worth the money.
But Gettleman even managed to fuck up trading him by paying him first. Gettleman got the job December 2017. He paid Beckham August 2018. Traded him March 2019. $16M in cap money gone. Great job.
That may be at the top of the list why Gettleman should be relieved of his duties. Foolish.
I think we've discussed this before, but it bears repeating. This organization failed OBJ to an extent. I'm not saying he's not responsible for his actions - 100% - but the inability to manage personalities by this group of either old or inexperienced decision makers is poor. If you are going to come out and say "you don't quit on talent", then figure it out. Belichick has had rogue characters like Ocho, Moss, Dillon, etc and managed to fit them quite nicely into the culture. Even Brown, who was only there 10 days, was quiet as a mouse before the civil suite broke and he was let go...
Could you imagine how productive OBJ would be if he had been drafted by the Patriots?
Belichick would have reigned him in right away, unlike Coughlin who turned a blind eye trying to save his job.
yep. but this actually illustrates disfunction with the organization, not just Tom. the fact that Tom felt he needed to save his job and let OBJ act like a jackass in that Panthers game shows the entire org was disfunctional (IMO)
RE: RE: Saquon sitting and breaking down film with Barry Sanders.....
defending the honor of the people in charge of this shit show.
We've disagreed on some of the details but the arc take of we could probably do worse might be the most salient.
Just a clusterfuck from the moment it happened. People that get fired from jobs for basically being a dick and have the increasing trail of people that have issues with them are the last people that should be talking about culture. Yet here we are.
Year 3 of the 20 year rebuild. I can't wait to hear all the same people sell me on Abrams in a few years, going to be so much fun!
RE: RE: This is kind of an interesting stroll down memory lane.....
When you read this, then you realize that AFTER this thread he took a 15-1 Panthers team to the Superbowl, it makes you wonder why the guy was such an awful hire from a fan's perspective.
Was anybody here that hated the Gettleman hire from day one on this thread? Not a callout, just curious as to what changed your mind if so? BBI: Dave Gettleman named Panthers' GM 1/9/13 - ( New Window )
Look at the first few posts in this thread and you'll find your answer.
I've said this repeatedly - it's not Gettleman that I have a problem with. On his own, I think he'd make a fine exec. It's that the Giants needed a makeover, they needed change in a big way. They barely bothered to get some views during the interview process, limiting themselves to Riddick as the only external candidate.
The Giants keep changing one piece at a time - starting with coordinators, then Coughlin, then Reese, then Eli - and they're not making any progress. They still look and feel just like the same organization they have been for the past 7 years, and the results match. https://corner.bigblueinteractive.com/index.php?mode=2&thread=562347&show_all=1 - ( New Window )
God I read my post from this thread just now. Sad then. Sad now. What a sorry sad sack of an organization.
I hate this hire. The Giants needed to move forward and didn't
NoGainDayne : 12/28/2017 5:55 pm : link
A quote from ESPNs the "great analytics rankings" written in 2015.
"Enter New England, where Dimitroff worked from 2002-2008. From the ESPN analytics article, One NFL analytics professional called the Patriots a "big black hole" when it comes to revealing any secrets But some evidence of the implementation of analytics has escaped the Patriots' gravitational field, and it suggests that the Patriots are one of the most innovative teams in the NFL. For 15 years, Ernie Adams a former Wall Street trader has worked to create cutting edge models for team building and in game play. It goes on to talk about their arbitrage strategies multiplying draft picks and squeezing trade value out of declining veterans."
The Pats have been great at minimizing weaknesses and limiting the downside of individual moves to remain prosperous. There is no doubt in my mind advanced analytics have played a part in this.
The Eagles are sitting atop the NFC right now with one of the more progressive analytics programs.
Now was the time to look forward and it seems we've doubled down on the past. There is such thing as too much loyalty, especially when technology is rapidly advancing.
It would be another thing if I could be optimistic and say "hey, maybe Gettleman is an open minded guy that will combine many opinions and leverage a lot of new ideas." everything I've read about him makes him seem the polar opposite.
Sad day for the future of the Giants in an already sad season.
Right before the Eagles won the super bowl with a backup QB...
Ah the benefits of depth via sound asset management.
Its only on BBI where analytics are so denegrated and dismissed
Other teams fans are thrilled when they find out their team has technology and an advanced analytic department aiding in team decisions.
I'm sure the Pats and Eagles don't regret it...
And before FMiC touts DG's record for starting an analytics department in Carolina. I'm not talking about player health and injury management.
This is what I am talking about:
Quote:
For 15 years, Ernie Adams a former Wall Street trader has worked to create cutting edge models for team building and in game play. It goes on to talk about their arbitrage strategies multiplying draft picks and squeezing trade value out of declining veterans.
The Eagles were talking about how great their analytics were
were around the time they ine the Superbowl. Whatever they have been doing in the draft with analytics appears to not be working because they are one of the older teams in the NFL and their draft picks for the most part do not take over for older starters. Since Howie Roseman took over before the 2017 draft, they have got around 6 starters from the draft. Other teams maybe applying analytics to the draft successfully. The Eagles appear not to be.
They are very good at in game analytics which has helped them. That also seems like a much easier thing to figure out than developing a system which helps determining what player to draft.
To learn from one another is directly related to the refusal to even consider what the other is saying as possibly true. This thread would be required reading for the education on how not to give and take information from one another.
To learn from one another is directly related to the refusal to even consider what the other is saying as possibly true. This thread would be required reading for the education on how not to give and take information from one another.
Too many people have heads made out of granite. A problem that seems to be getting worse over time. Everyone thinks they are the smartest person in the world.
To learn from one another is directly related to the refusal to even consider what the other is saying as possibly true. This thread would be required reading for the education on how not to give and take information from one another.
Too many people have heads made out of granite. A problem that seems to be getting worse over time. Everyone thinks they are the smartest person in the world.
I struggle at times with thinking I have the answers, I have graduated from granite to marble 🎓 so there is progress.
Typically when I act as if my theory on something is unquestionable while in discussion it usually means that I don't value what the other is saying, my ego or pride is steering my thinking, and or the discussion has turned into a competition which I think plays ac major role in the lack of give and take with conversation. When we compete, we compete to win. Competing to win a discussion and discussing to learn don't typically work together, it's usually one or the other.
RE: The Eagles were talking about how great their analytics were
were around the time they ine the Superbowl. Whatever they have been doing in the draft with analytics appears to not be working because they are one of the older teams in the NFL and their draft picks for the most part do not take over for older starters. Since Howie Roseman took over before the 2017 draft, they have got around 6 starters from the draft. Other teams maybe applying analytics to the draft successfully. The Eagles appear not to be.
They are very good at in game analytics which has helped them. That also seems like a much easier thing to figure out than developing a system which helps determining what player to draft.
This part of the game has to be understood - and there's really only one time that doesn't fall victim to it.
The game is built around parity - it makes sustained winning difficult. Starting with the salary cap and going to the draft, there's a penalty associated with winning. You win a championship, and players expect to be paid - the first penalty. You win at any sustained level, and you draft lower - the second penalty.
And that's without the fact that teams become less hungry over time, what teams do strategically is figured out and becomes less effective, and that the pool of available talent is so small that the margin between teams is pretty thin.
That's why I don't kill the Giants for "screwing" Eli - a theme so many fans seem to get extremely wrong - by not giving him more talent consistently throughout his run. The system was built to prevent them from winning consistently during that period.
those that refuse to look at facts are doomed to either speak in falsehoods or misrepresent the truth:
Quote:
I'm sure the Pats and Eagles don't regret it...
And before FMiC touts DG's record for starting an analytics department in Carolina. I'm not talking about player health and injury management.
That isn't all that Gettleman implemented in Carolina, but I won't go down that rabbit hole.
The bigger question is that the Eagles and Pats are held up as these cutting edge analytic minds, with seldom a mention of other teams. I don't know what the implied assumption is for some organizations, but the implied assumption on the giants is that they just aren't using analytics or using them poorly. There's a huge divide between the scenarios that could exist.
and I say "could" because even as they are continually bashed by a select few on BBI regarding analytics - those posters don't really know what is being done. So what do they do? Tout the Pats and Eagles incessantly.
Case in point is not even understanding the scope of what Gettleman implemented in Carolina and really not caring to understand it. So repeating a falsehood is better.....
You know, sometimes the solution isn't as complex as it's made out to
The question isn't do the Giants have and use the output of an analytics team, it's whether it's any good.
Anecdotally, I have and currently run a pretty big program that works on similar problems in Manhattan. Again -- I've never seen a white paper, use case, journal article, news article, customer reference, or logo in a pitch from any of the firms, agencies, or even staffing agencies that do this work.
Either the Giants really aren't doing that much, they aren't listening to it, or what they are doing sucks.
Data in sports is one of the sexier problems to solve out there -- if someone was crushing it not only would I hear about it, everyone would.
The Giants data science and engineering team might be showing up, but they are getting their ass kicked. Sound like any other part of the organization?
The question isn't do the Giants have and use the output of an analytics team, it's whether it's any good.
Anecdotally, I have and currently run a pretty big program that works on similar problems in Manhattan. Again -- I've never seen a white paper, use case, journal article, news article, customer reference, or logo in a pitch from any of the firms, agencies, or even staffing agencies that do this work.
Either the Giants really aren't doing that much, they aren't listening to it, or what they are doing sucks.
Data in sports is one of the sexier problems to solve out there -- if someone was crushing it not only would I hear about it, everyone would.
The Giants data science and engineering team might be showing up, but they are getting their ass kicked. Sound like any other part of the organization?
They should really crowdsource the data and have competitions to find weaknesses in teams on a week to week basis.
The biggest problem with any analytics is that if you just have lets say your own team of data scientists, then you are just getting one view point on the data.
Crowdsourcing gets you different view points of fall the data.
It would be simple as just giving the public the all 22 tape and the correlating excel spreadsheet and have at it.
The most simple job to do for a system is value based resource allocation. Forget the decently complicated in-game and on-field challenges.
I'd love to understand the science behind their resource allocation models.
They have the 3rd highest dead money in the league (fine because much of it was sold for draft picks or cheaper players) -- but then you have 42% of available personnel resources allocated to Manning, Solder, Ogletree, and Jenkins.
You spend 23M on a QB it was clear as day was shot. You spend 15M on a CB who statistically had a worse year than RW Webb last year. You re-do an aging, extremely expensive, and mediocre tackle's deal, and kick that expense into the future because you can't cover your operating forecasts.
Forget grading and probabilities -- the Giants need to start with resource allocation and not being idiots.
42% of available personnel resources allocated to Manning, Solder, Ogletree, and Jenkins.
You spend 23M on a QB it was clear as day was shot. You spend 15M on a CB who statistically had a worse year than RW Webb last year. You re-do an aging, extremely expensive, and mediocre tackle's deal, and kick that expense into the future because you can't cover your operating forecasts.
Good post and well put as to the material issues with the team.
Its not really about challenging a PI call at the end of the first half...
I listened to an interesting soccer podcast interview yesterday with a guy who works for a data analytics service in the UK. It's the Tifo Podcast (which is affiliated with The Athletic and is excellent) and the title is Understanding Stats in Football - with Nikos Overheul.
Obviously it's about soccer, but man what they do is EXACTLY what the Giants need, just in a different sport. Along the services they provide is manager recruitment based on a goal statement provided by the club owner/manager - i.e. "we're a limited budget club aspiring to play a solid defensive style and hoping to punch above our weight in our division - provide us with a list of manager candidates that could meet that criteria".
It's an interesting listen, and I have to think there are some services that perform similar work in the NFL world.
linked to an excellent article last week about how the Colts have two "game situation analysts" - my phrase - live at every game. They monitor the game just like any other coach. And they have instant access to Reich if he needs them to offer advice about game situations. Reich doesn't always use their recommendations, but he says he finds their input very important in how he manages the game.
Anyone think this current clown show at Jints Central have this?
Let's face it. If anyone could use something like this, it's Shurmur...
linked to an excellent article last week about how the Colts have two "game situation analysts" - my phrase - live at every game. They monitor the game just like any other coach. And they have instant access to Reich if he needs them to offer advice about game situations. Reich doesn't always use their recommendations, but he says he finds their input very important in how he manages the game.
Anyone think this current clown show at Jints Central have this?
Let's face it. If anyone could use something like this, it's Shurmur...
There's no way. Just in the past two games we can count at least 4 egregious clock and down management errors. Not only were they errors; they were inconsistent errors - which would indicate a lack of even a bad methodology.
linked to an excellent article last week about how the Colts have two "game situation analysts" - my phrase - live at every game. They monitor the game just like any other coach. And they have instant access to Reich if he needs them to offer advice about game situations. Reich doesn't always use their recommendations, but he says he finds their input very important in how he manages the game.
Anyone think this current clown show at Jints Central have this?
Let's face it. If anyone could use something like this, it's Shurmur...
There's no way. Just in the past two games we can count at least 4 egregious clock and down management errors. Not only were they errors; they were inconsistent errors - which would indicate a lack of even a bad methodology.
Shurmur is winging it in real time.
This is the real problem -- inconsistency.
On the resource front you've got a culling of bad contracts in exchange for dead money and draft picks. You've got an emphasis on drafting for the secondary. Great value oriented moves.
Then you've got drafting a RB at #2, keeping an empty 38 year old bag at QB, a statistically bad corner as the 4th most expensive at his position in the league, and signing a 30+ league average LT to a record contract.
those that refuse to look at facts are doomed to either speak in falsehoods or misrepresent the truth:
Quote:
I'm sure the Pats and Eagles don't regret it...
And before FMiC touts DG's record for starting an analytics department in Carolina. I'm not talking about player health and injury management.
That isn't all that Gettleman implemented in Carolina, but I won't go down that rabbit hole.
The bigger question is that the Eagles and Pats are held up as these cutting edge analytic minds, with seldom a mention of other teams. I don't know what the implied assumption is for some organizations, but the implied assumption on the giants is that they just aren't using analytics or using them poorly. There's a huge divide between the scenarios that could exist.
and I say "could" because even as they are continually bashed by a select few on BBI regarding analytics - those posters don't really know what is being done. So what do they do? Tout the Pats and Eagles incessantly.
Case in point is not even understanding the scope of what Gettleman implemented in Carolina and really not caring to understand it. So repeating a falsehood is better.....
As christian pointed out, and I have in the past as well. To those of us who work in the industry if there was significant work being done by the Giants in this area, it would leave a footprint. I think I have been crystal clear on this and what constitutes a real analytics department.
I know that I have seen footprints from the Pats, Eagles, Jags, Browns, Chiefs, Saints and recently the Rams. There were a few other teams as well, perhaps 10 in total to a greater or lesser degree.
The Giants don't have footprint.
That's not to say they are doing nothing at all. We know from articles that they are using analytics for player health, and recently for some game management (although it seems selective and as such it doesn't work and leads to some really goofy stuff).
What these other teams are doing that the Giants (and the Panthers for that matter) are not doing is this
Quote:
For 15 years, Ernie Adams a former Wall Street trader has worked to create cutting edge models for team building and in game play. It goes on to talk about their arbitrage strategies multiplying draft picks and squeezing trade value out of declining veterans.
Let me know when this happens... Otherwise, I'm not interested in the Giant's "Analytics" department.
linked to an excellent article last week about how the Colts have two "game situation analysts" - my phrase - live at every game. They monitor the game just like any other coach. And they have instant access to Reich if he needs them to offer advice about game situations. Reich doesn't always use their recommendations, but he says he finds their input very important in how he manages the game.
Anyone think this current clown show at Jints Central have this?
Let's face it. If anyone could use something like this, it's Shurmur...
There's no way. Just in the past two games we can count at least 4 egregious clock and down management errors. Not only were they errors; they were inconsistent errors - which would indicate a lack of even a bad methodology.
Shurmur is winging it in real time.
This is the real problem -- inconsistency.
On the resource front you've got a culling of bad contracts in exchange for dead money and draft picks. You've got an emphasis on drafting for the secondary. Great value oriented moves.
Then you've got drafting a RB at #2, keeping an empty 38 year old bag at QB, a statistically bad corner as the 4th most expensive at his position in the league, and signing a 30+ league average LT to a record contract.
I agree with your inconsistency assessment.
But if the team is inconsistent about these things then they are not really using analytics. What they are really doing is whatever they hell they want. When their move coincides with analytics they say, see we are using them too. When the move doesn't coincide its analytics shmanalytics...
And the data of coverage being "more effective" than a pass rush is a classic misuse of analytics... Yes, there is a greater correlation between good coverage and wins than a good pass rush and wins. BUT, teams that make the conference championship generally have BOTH... One without the other is insufficient.
As you know, you have to build a system, follow the recommendations, and constantly adjust and grow. It's counter productive to only make data driven decisions in some scenarios. It's just going to create a mess and cast doubts.
I genuinely don't believe a value-based allocation methodology is being employed. I look at that the evidence and I don't believe it.
I really liked Christian's post about organizational buy in
and how it's important to make data driven decisions throughout. Or at least a consistent analytical framework.
I think the clearest way to put it is this. The Giants are trying to stab at work that requires very advanced math without someone in the building that shows they grasp how to apply even more simple mathematical frameworks with any kind of consistency. I think that's been clear as day to those with strong math abilities for a while.
And again, that's just results on the field and some clear asset management decisions not grounded in strong mathematical concepts.
It's like we keep seeing people die in surgery and people want to point out like hey! We have a surgeon! Look at them doing surgery! It's a surgeon!
Training, qualifications, experience. They matter.
Then you've got drafting a RB at #2, keeping an empty 38 year old bag at QB, a statistically bad corner as the 4th most expensive at his position in the league, and signing a 30+ league average LT to a record contract.
In a nutshell, that sums up EXACTLY why Gettleman should be on the same patch of thin ice as Shurmur.
And these aren't moves that had to be made to correct Reese blunders. A common refrain I'm getting tired of reading...
Building and trusting the system is hard work. The tech, the math, the culture, buy-in all of it.
The easiest and best indicator the Giants don't have the structural leadership to enforce a data driven culture is investment.
The Giants have 40%+ of their resources wrapped up 4 in bad contracts. If the Giants have a team of folks working on analytical investment -- imagine how excited they must be to see the fruits of their labor.
cap allocation for the 4 top Giants, (Eli, Jenkins, Solder and Ogletree) is a little under 30%. Meanwhile a team like the Rams referenced using analytics have their top 4 players taking up 31% of the cap. The Jags are at 29%, including Norwell taking up 8% of their cap.
And the Giants are shedding a great deal of their dead cap next season and will be well positioned with the cap. Perhaps some of their recent moves have been made with that goal in mind??
cap allocation for the 4 top Giants, (Eli, Jenkins, Solder and Ogletree) is a little under 30%. Meanwhile a team like the Rams referenced using analytics have their top 4 players taking up 31% of the cap. The Jags are at 29%, including Norwell taking up 8% of their cap.
And the Giants are shedding a great deal of their dead cap next season and will be well positioned with the cap. Perhaps some of their recent moves have been made with that goal in mind??
It's nice to look at context around the league
I agree with your last line, especially as it relates to the posters who seem to think we're going to be flush with cap space next season. The reality is, there's a ton of open cap space across the league next year, and the Giants are basically middle of the pack. The reality is that when there's a significant amount of aggregate cap room available league-wide, salaries tend to increase dramatically. Hopefully the Giants are already forecasting this and are prepared with a gameplan that factors for it.
If the FA market plays out like I expect, I hope the Giants sit out the first wave of brand-name UFAs and target the 2nd tier where some value might be found. That's not what I expect them to do, but I'm hoping for it. More than likely, they'll chase 1-2 big names and go back to the same old cycle of stars and scrubs roster construction.
cap allocation for the 4 top Giants, (Eli, Jenkins, Solder and Ogletree) is a little under 30%. Meanwhile a team like the Rams referenced using analytics have their top 4 players taking up 31% of the cap. The Jags are at 29%, including Norwell taking up 8% of their cap.
And the Giants are shedding a great deal of their dead cap next season and will be well positioned with the cap. Perhaps some of their recent moves have been made with that goal in mind??
It's nice to look at context around the league
With regard to the cap allocations, wouldn't a more appropriate view be to look at percentage of cap space tied to the actual roster (thereby netting out the dead money)?
The percentage you're referencing is somewhat misleading because it's of the entire salary cap for this season, but if we accept the dead money for this year as a necessary evil (I think it didn't need to be as bad as it is, but not trying to revisit that here), shouldn't we look at the top cap hits as a percentage of the effective cap room available to the team net of dead money?
That's the context in which the Giants chose to keep those contracts for this year, and thus should be the context in which we debate it, right?
cap allocation for the 4 top Giants, (Eli, Jenkins, Solder and Ogletree) is a little under 30%. Meanwhile a team like the Rams referenced using analytics have their top 4 players taking up 31% of the cap. The Jags are at 29%, including Norwell taking up 8% of their cap.
And the Giants are shedding a great deal of their dead cap next season and will be well positioned with the cap. Perhaps some of their recent moves have been made with that goal in mind??
It's nice to look at context around the league
You're missing the point. I'm not referring to salary cap potential, I'm talking about resources employed on the roster.
The Giants are spending 153M on their 2019 roster and 62M are allocated to not just their top 4 contracts, but all four of those suck.
The Rams have far less dead money and have more spending potential. Their top 4 contracts don't include a dude who got benched.
The Jags? Well Coughlin fucked their roster. We can agree there.
cap allocation for the 4 top Giants, (Eli, Jenkins, Solder and Ogletree) is a little under 30%. Meanwhile a team like the Rams referenced using analytics have their top 4 players taking up 31% of the cap. The Jags are at 29%, including Norwell taking up 8% of their cap.
And the Giants are shedding a great deal of their dead cap next season and will be well positioned with the cap. Perhaps some of their recent moves have been made with that goal in mind??
It's nice to look at context around the league
Look around the league all you want...our top 4 add very little value and we still will have only 5 wins.
The Giants suck at this and here is a perfect example why...
cap allocation for the 4 top Giants, (Eli, Jenkins, Solder and Ogletree) is a little under 30%. Meanwhile a team like the Rams referenced using analytics have their top 4 players taking up 31% of the cap. The Jags are at 29%, including Norwell taking up 8% of their cap.
And the Giants are shedding a great deal of their dead cap next season and will be well positioned with the cap. Perhaps some of their recent moves have been made with that goal in mind??
It's nice to look at context around the league
Look around the league all you want...our top 4 add very little value and we still will have only 5 wins.
The Giants suck at this and here is a perfect example why...
Exactly. Allocating resources to players who project to be really productive isn't a bad idea. Manning, Solder, Ogletree, and Jenkins aren't those types of players.
Gettleman appears to makes
value guided moves. Eating dead money to get out of bad contracts or to buy draft picks is smart.
Cluster drafting for the secondary in a passing league is smart. Drafting pocket collapsing lineman over edge rushers is smart. But then there are simple value based decisions he ignores. And that's the dead give away he's either willing to ignore data science or not getting very good guidance.
The last 2 seasons Gettleman has acquired or retained too many players at too high of a cost for reasons other than the player being an efficient, effective, good value, part of building a championship level team.
So let me cherry pick. I'll avoid teams with young, productive QBs like the Chiefs, Ravens, Texans, and Dallas. The Pats, too, because, well, they are the Pats.
Let's start with FMiC's Rams. Danold/9%, Whitworth/9%, Cooks/8%, and Fowler/6%. A great defensive player, a solid veteran LT, a solid WR, and a very good speed rusher. And while the Rams are 4-3. And they are still very much in the hunt.
The Packers. They have 35% of their cap invested in 5 players. Rodgers/13.5%, Bakhtiari/7%, Graham/6.5%, Adams/5.5%, and Bulaga/4%. A great QB, the best pair of Ts in the NFL, a terrific WR, and a solid TE. All key producers.
Seattle has 30% of their cap tied up in 4 players. Wilson/13%, Wagner/8%, Brown/5.5%, and Clowney/4%. A great QB, a great LB, a very solid LT, and a solid DE.
The Saints have 30% of the cap spread over 4 players. Brees/12%, Armstead/8%, Peat/5%, and Jordan/5%. A great QB, a solid LT, a great G, and a great DE.
49ers have 30% of their cap tied to 5 players. JimG/8%, Staley/6%, Ford/6%, Alexander/5%, Sherman/5%. A solid QB, a great LT, a very productive speed rusher, a terrific LB, and an experienced, proven corner.
So as pointed out by others, if high percentage of the cap is over a handful players, it works if those players are good.
And one more time, our top four player eating 30% of the cap are Eli, Jenkins, Solder, and Ogletree. An old QB who no longer starts, a solid corner, a mediocre LT, and a decent LB.
cap allocation for the 4 top Giants, (Eli, Jenkins, Solder and Ogletree) is a little under 30%. Meanwhile a team like the Rams referenced using analytics have their top 4 players taking up 31% of the cap. The Jags are at 29%, including Norwell taking up 8% of their cap.
And the Giants are shedding a great deal of their dead cap next season and will be well positioned with the cap. Perhaps some of their recent moves have been made with that goal in mind??
It's nice to look at context around the league
Others have already blown this argument up. In short that paying a lot to a handful of players that are major contributors to wins is not a bad, in fact it's good.
To think that you even tried to float this as something that supports your side of this debate is completely mind boggling. In no way shape or form is the allocation of contracts to the top 4 on the Giants even remotely support good data science or even good management, it strongly argues the opposite. I mean we are talking about a 38 year old Backup QB, a 32 year old sub-par LT, a mediocre at best middle LB, and a 30 year old CB whose play is erratic based on his mood. Not to mention that OBJ consumes 16M against the cap which ranks him as #2 and he doesn't even play for the team anymore. DG is directly responsible for3 of these contracts, and signed off on maintaining the other 2.
To say that this is gross cap mismanagement is the understatement of the year. It is catastrophically bad cap management and directly attributable to the current state of the team.
To even float this as something that supports your side of this debate show just how little you understand about a data driven approach, team building and objective analysis. You've now lost whatever shred of credibility you had left and are clearly just a shill for the teams management.
That over the past 2 weeks or so, my view of DG has been souring.
The argument was that he has had some good drafts and thus has the team moving in the right direction. He cleared out a whole bunch of veteran contracts that for various reasons a poor value for the Giants, taking the cap hits this year and supposedly freeing up "tons" of cap space next year.
First, as my post above outlines his overall cap management has bee catastrophically bad. The top 5 costs on this team barely contribute. And going forward the Giants DON't have tons of cap space, they have a league average amount of space next year.
When you consider that, you have to realize that the upcoming class of FA knows how much space is out there. They will hold out for commensurately larger contracts.
Don't look at it as WOW 60M that will go a long way. No look at it as 60M is league average it will go a league average amount of way... It also give management just enough leeway to move the gun from their kneecaps to their foreheads. It's actually quite dangerous and could become a huge albatross if not managed very carefully.
Furthermore, teams have been getting better and better at locking up key contributors before they hit FA. It reminds me what happened with Plan B FA, and June cuts... Initially teams didn't know how to handle them well, and some good players shook loose. After a couple of years Plan B completely dried up, and more recently we never see good players shake loose in post June cuts. Now, the quality of FA that become available is getting worse and worse. This is leading to ridiculous contracts for players like Solder. Nowadays smart teams wait and sign the second tier of FA to team friendly 1 or 2 year contracts. And pick up compensatory draft picks when they are allowed to leave. This is what is meant by the quote above about how the Pats squeeze draft picks out of aging vets.
So we see that so far he has not done well in managing the cap.
Above I outline his 2 drafts. The only players that appear to be long term plus players were chosen in the top 34. It should not be surprising that the Giants got decent players from their 5 top 34 picks. The fact they they have had 5 top 34 picks in 2 years speaks to just how bad this has been. But you don't get kudos for not screwing those picks up. That's the basic requirements for the job.
That said, I know this is broadly debated, but I still don't subscribe to the Barkley pick. I don't think it was the right player at the right time for this team. I have provided what I believe was a viable alternative, and many posters even those who like the Barkley pick agree that my proposed draft would put the Giants in a better position now. Yes it involved trading down, and yes I realize that trading down is easier said than done. However this GM didn't even try. If he had seriously tried and not been able to pull it off, I could give him a pass. But to suggest that he gave it serious consideration is disingenuous at best.
The rest of his picks beyond pick 34 he has gotten what appears to be average value.
Taken as a whole I don't think you can say that his drafts have been any better than average so far. If Jones becomes a star, he might deserve a slightly higher grade, but as of now its really just average.
So average drafts taken together with catastrophically bad cap management and FA signings have moved me to the point of agreeing with Terps. I think I have seen enough of both PS and DG to decide that neither deserves more time.
I am not keen on constantly changing the HC and GM, that is what bad teams do. But bad teams are also terrible at self evaluation. Terps is right, they need to go outside the org (and the Fiants family... EA is not going outside the org) get some objective analysis of the team, the management and get guidance on how to take the next steps and get them right.
The closer look at the draft I posted on a different thread
This gets a pass for now. It all really depends on Jones. And it is the first round and the GIants have been picking high. Getting round 1 right is table stakes.
Round 2
Hernandez
Pass for now, but Hernandez seems to have hit a wall and stopped progressing. Round 2 is also table stakes.
Round 3
Hill, Carter, Ximines, Beal
Meh
Carter has flashed but looks a bit stiff. He has a role but nothing special. Same for Hill. Ximines mostly looks overwhelmed at this point, and we know nothing about Beal. No impact players here, maybe some starters. Call it average for the 3rd round.
Round 4
Lauletta, Love
Lauletta was a waste, we haven't really seen anything from Love yet. So far, this lacks value.
Round 5
McIntosh, Connolly, D. Slayton
Slayton looks to be the best of the bunch so far. Connolly's injury doesn't bode well for an under sized guy that relied on athleticism. McIntosh, not much to say. Overall he made some good picks here, even if none project to be anything more than marginal starters.
Rounds 6 & 7
Ballentine, Asafo-Adjei, C. Slayton
Big George is gone, C. Slayton is on the PS, but didn't show that much. Ballentine may be a player, but we don't really know yet. Overall, nothing to see here.
So bottom line, beyond the second round, the best you can say is that his picks look average for the round. Nothing really special jumps out there.
So have his drafts really been that good? Or has he just managed to not totally screw them up like Reese did?
Does this level of drafting really qualify him as something special that deserves more time considering his blunders in choosing a HC, FA signings and mismanagement of Beckham?
Is the team really moving in the right direction fast enough to be anything more than mediocre?
Ive been reading this thread and it is a damning indictment
1) The real issue with Elis 2019 compensation isnt the roster bonus due in March. I wouldnt have paid him it, but it was defensible. The mistake was not trading or releasing Eli over the summer.
2) OBJs 2018 contract probably led to the Giants trading cap space for picks, as we ate the remaining signing bonus, making him a relatively cheap employee for the Browns. This position needs to be evaluated as it involves a judgement call about a trade market that was in flux due to the cheap trade cost of Antonio Brown. But lets be fair here and allow that Gettleman may have in this instance got value for the cap space.
3) The cap space mismanagement Christianne bw and McL have been criticizing doesnt require data science to see the mistake. Its far more basic management, traditional management you know, where you get what you pay for. The data science criticism, while valid, is a red herring. This looks more like plain old management blundering. Weve all seen things like it at our workplaces. All NFL GMs make mistakes, but there A LOT of them here. And the frequent screwing up permeates the coaching, too. And the ownership in its strategic decisions since Gilbride was let go.
This has convinced me that the Giants record cant be attributed to a few bad actors.
We are seeing a record that is a direct result of underperformance up and down the organization. This franchise is completely lost.
Kareem Martin is another cap blunder that DG is responsible
For. This guy, who has at no point made any discernible impact on the team, has a 2019 cap hit of just under $6mm. Meanwhile, we are trotting out a cheap bargain bin rental (Remmers) at a $2.5mm cap hit at the critical RT position. This isnt optimal. Its another example of cap management that is bad on the face of it.
Don't look at it as WOW 60M that will go a long way. No look at it as 60M is league average it will go a league average amount of way... It also give management just enough leeway to move the gun from their kneecaps to their foreheads. It's actually quite dangerous and could become a huge albatross if not managed very carefully.
Man, you sure had a lot to say but nicely done McL.
I really liked this nugget, it made me ponder a bit over my first cup of coffee...
Don't look at it as WOW 60M that will go a long way. No look at it as 60M is league average it will go a league average amount of way... It also give management just enough leeway to move the gun from their kneecaps to their foreheads. It's actually quite dangerous and could become a huge albatross if not managed very carefully.
Man, you sure had a lot to say but nicely done McL.
I really liked this nugget, it made me ponder a bit over my first cup of coffee...
According to overthecap the giants are tenth in the league for cap space for 2020. Tenth isn't average, but seems to be a stretch of the truth to make a point.
but I don't think McL used it to stretch his argument or mis-inform the reader.
As he mentioned elsewhere, with so much cap space around that will mean more teams will re-sign their own offering less chances to teams like the Giants who had to infuse new/different talent.
but I don't think McL used it to stretch his argument or mis-inform the reader.
As he mentioned elsewhere, with so much cap space around that will mean more teams will re-sign their own offering less chances to teams like the Giants who had to infuse new/different talent.
We'll see what happens.
As for his information, these threads people get dug in and will often stretch facts to fit their pov, happens on both sides. I think if someone opposite of mcl was offering not so true facts he would call them on it.
But a pet peeve of mine is labeling being ranked 10th in anything as top ten as if you are in the same group as #1
Another pet peeve is being impressed with being 10 out of 32. Thats the fat part of the bell curve. 10th best WR, thats pretty good. 10th best QB or Def? That means you are average.
Not trying to be a dick to you crick, just something that has always bothered me.
The giants are in good shape cap wise, but it's being described as average. Perhaps I am misinterpreting the facts. And not that average should be a bad thing cap wise, but in this thread average seems to be used as a negative against fans who want to celebrate cap space. Personally, as I have said before, I feel these types of conversations are nothing more than competitions instead of any give and take of relevant factual information.
As for the top ten? I understand what you are saying, I am guilty of using top ten as a positive even if in reality it's closer to average.
But a pet peeve of mine is labeling being ranked 10th in anything as top ten as if you are in the same group as #1
Another pet peeve is being impressed with being 10 out of 32. Thats the fat part of the bell curve. 10th best WR, thats pretty good. 10th best QB or Def? That means you are average.
Not trying to be a dick to you crick, just something that has always bothered me.
You want to impress me? Be in the Top 10 AND have a winning record...
if its semantics, then it really doesn't change the picture being portrayed.
But the point is the side opposing won't just see it as semantics. There isn't any consistency. Point is no one is willing to give anything. It's only ok if it supports the person's pov, that doesn't seem like honest conversation to me.
That if a post about Gettleman was made in a positive manner with facts being semantically off there wouldn't be correcting of those stretched facts.
Yeah, it's the goalposts moving, not you having a skewed POV rooted in loyalty over logic.
I'm still laughing about Gettleman and Coughlin being a great 1-2 punch when the two of them can't seem to escape the top 10 of the draft. And Coughlin would be a lot better than the coaches we've brought in, yet there isn't a single NFL team that wants him to coach for them.
The giants are in good shape cap wise, but it's being described as average. Perhaps I am misinterpreting the facts. And not that average should be a bad thing cap wise, but in this thread average seems to be used as a negative against fans who want to celebrate cap space. Personally, as I have said before, I feel these types of conversations are nothing more than competitions instead of any give and take of relevant factual information.
As for the top ten? I understand what you are saying, I am guilty of using top ten as a positive even if in reality it's closer to average.
I think you're missing the point. First of all, they're really not in that good of shape cap wise - good shape, at least to me, suggests some sort of advantageous position relative to the league - the Giants do not have any material advantage over the competition in terms of cap space. And further, the Giants continue to be mediocre at cap management. That's the biggest issue.
Anyone who trusts this group to not fuck up the cap with the newfound cap space the same way the old regime fucked it up in 2016 just isn't paying attention. Contract construction remains the same as before. Too much money tied to in-year bonuses that don't offer any cap advantage. Too much money tied to JAG players. 2nd years attached to player contracts that end up getting released instead of hitting free agency to garner compensatory picks.
It's the same crappy approach, and the same shitty cap "guru" leading the way. If the Giants somehow manage to exercise some restraint in free agency next year and stick to 2nd tier guys on prove it contracts so they can use placeholders to accumulate picks instead of taking on dead money to do it, I'll gladly eat my words. But I suspect I won't need to.
The giants are in good shape cap wise, but it's being described as average. Perhaps I am misinterpreting the facts. And not that average should be a bad thing cap wise, but in this thread average seems to be used as a negative against fans who want to celebrate cap space. Personally, as I have said before, I feel these types of conversations are nothing more than competitions instead of any give and take of relevant factual information.
As for the top ten? I understand what you are saying, I am guilty of using top ten as a positive even if in reality it's closer to average.
I think you're missing the point. First of all, they're really not in that good of shape cap wise - good shape, at least to me, suggests some sort of advantageous position relative to the league - the Giants do not have any material advantage over the competition in terms of cap space. And further, the Giants continue to be mediocre at cap management. That's the biggest issue.
Anyone who trusts this group to not fuck up the cap with the newfound cap space the same way the old regime fucked it up in 2016 just isn't paying attention. Contract construction remains the same as before. Too much money tied to in-year bonuses that don't offer any cap advantage. Too much money tied to JAG players. 2nd years attached to player contracts that end up getting released instead of hitting free agency to garner compensatory picks.
It's the same crappy approach, and the same shitty cap "guru" leading the way. If the Giants somehow manage to exercise some restraint in free agency next year and stick to 2nd tier guys on prove it contracts so they can use placeholders to accumulate picks instead of taking on dead money to do it, I'll gladly eat my words. But I suspect I won't need to.
I understand what is being said. You're right good is subjective to the individual. I feel the giants are in good cap shape this coming year. I also am not giving up on the possibility that human error may be learned from and corrected. It doesn't mean that it will, but I also don't just want to make up my mind that it for sure won't.
I Also stand by what I said earlier that the giants having average cap space even if true was being used as a negative which I think is a little bizarre.
The giants are in good shape cap wise, but it's being described as average. Perhaps I am misinterpreting the facts. And not that average should be a bad thing cap wise, but in this thread average seems to be used as a negative against fans who want to celebrate cap space. Personally, as I have said before, I feel these types of conversations are nothing more than competitions instead of any give and take of relevant factual information.
As for the top ten? I understand what you are saying, I am guilty of using top ten as a positive even if in reality it's closer to average.
I think you're missing the point. First of all, they're really not in that good of shape cap wise - good shape, at least to me, suggests some sort of advantageous position relative to the league - the Giants do not have any material advantage over the competition in terms of cap space. And further, the Giants continue to be mediocre at cap management. That's the biggest issue.
Anyone who trusts this group to not fuck up the cap with the newfound cap space the same way the old regime fucked it up in 2016 just isn't paying attention. Contract construction remains the same as before. Too much money tied to in-year bonuses that don't offer any cap advantage. Too much money tied to JAG players. 2nd years attached to player contracts that end up getting released instead of hitting free agency to garner compensatory picks.
It's the same crappy approach, and the same shitty cap "guru" leading the way. If the Giants somehow manage to exercise some restraint in free agency next year and stick to 2nd tier guys on prove it contracts so they can use placeholders to accumulate picks instead of taking on dead money to do it, I'll gladly eat my words. But I suspect I won't need to.
I understand what is being said. You're right good is subjective to the individual. I feel the giants are in good cap shape this coming year. I also am not giving up on the possibility that human error may be learned from and corrected. It doesn't mean that it will, but I also don't just want to make up my mind that it for sure won't.
I Also stand by what I said earlier that the giants having average cap space even if true was being used as a negative which I think is a little bizarre.
It's not being used as a negative, it's being used as context. As a fanbase, we're so used to having such little cap space due to a poorly constructed roster and too much dead money that seeing nearly $60M in cap space feels like a huge amount. But when you contextualize it against the total league landscape, you begin to realize that there's a ton of open cap space this offseason, and that the Giants will be facing rapidly escalating contract values as a result. So many fans act like we're positioned for a free agency windfall, and we're not.
Let's be clear here - Gettleman's free agency moves have sucked because the players he has targeted/signed have sucked, not because he's been hamstrung by cap limitations forcing him to sign shitty players. And whatever cap space limitations he has faced are at least as much his own doing as they are a byproduct of Reese.
Anyone reassuring themselves that the best is yet to come with Gettleman once he finally has some cap room to play with is purely trading in wishes and hopes, not anything rooted in reality.
If you are being extremely defensive, otherwise its just an accurate description
I don't agree with that totally. It certainly is possible I am being sensitive, but considering .mcl's constant criticism of Gettleman it seems to fit what I am saying. I know Gettleman deserves criticism, but constant criticism is unwarranted in my opinion. Now, maybe he is more balanced than I am remembering. This is how I see it
If you are being extremely defensive, otherwise its just an accurate description
I don't agree with that totally. It certainly is possible I am being sensitive, but considering .mcl's constant criticism of Gettleman it seems to fit what I am saying. I know Gettleman deserves criticism, but constant criticism is unwarranted in my opinion. Now, maybe he is more balanced than I am remembering. This is how I see it
Criticizing Gettleman is a realistic viewpoint. Defending him on faith alone despite increasingly mounting results to the contrary seems to fall into the unbalanced camp, IMO.
If you are being extremely defensive, otherwise its just an accurate description
I don't agree with that totally. It certainly is possible I am being sensitive, but considering .mcl's constant criticism of Gettleman it seems to fit what I am saying. I know Gettleman deserves criticism, but constant criticism is unwarranted in my opinion. Now, maybe he is more balanced than I am remembering. This is how I see it
Criticizing Gettleman is a realistic viewpoint. Defending him on faith alone despite increasingly mounting results to the contrary seems to fall into the unbalanced camp, IMO.
I didn't say it wasn't, constant criticism without acknowledging the positive is severely unbalance, just the same as never acknowledging the mistakes and only the positive.
Only mcl can say if his intent with the term average was meant to be a slight.
I'm not sure how anything I have said is illogical
If you are being extremely defensive, otherwise its just an accurate description
I don't agree with that totally. It certainly is possible I am being sensitive, but considering .mcl's constant criticism of Gettleman it seems to fit what I am saying. I know Gettleman deserves criticism, but constant criticism is unwarranted in my opinion. Now, maybe he is more balanced than I am remembering. This is how I see it
Criticizing Gettleman is a realistic viewpoint. Defending him on faith alone despite increasingly mounting results to the contrary seems to fall into the unbalanced camp, IMO.
I didn't say it wasn't, constant criticism without acknowledging the positive is severely unbalance, just the same as never acknowledging the mistakes and only the positive.
Only mcl can say if his intent with the term average was meant to be a slight.
I'm not sure how anything I have said is illogical
What exactly are the positives?
Continued cap mismanagement? Disregard for the value of analytics? Shitty free agent signings? Prioritizing what appears to be an ego-driven cleanse of anyone on the roster from the prior regime even if it comes at the expense of the overall talent level of the roster? Showing the same make-a-FA-splash-to-win-the-back-page tendencies as his predecessor?
The positives that everyone seems to point to are the drafts - well I think if we're being honest, picking in the top 6 two years in a row and trading away a handful of players for more picks will help make that part of the grade look a little better than it seems to be translating into wins on the field.
Even without dinging Mr. Air Keyboard for the questionable decision to draft a RB #2 overall with a roster in shambles (meaning that that RB's entire first contract would be spent in rebuild mode), is it unfair to pump the brakes on the hype train for DG's drafting prowess when you consider that some of his ammunition came at the expense of the roster itself?
RE: RE: Is there some limitation on posters being able to
Would you mind to outline how I am being illogical. Your claim, please back it up
Give me a little time as I am at my sons basketball tryouts. Will respond in a bit as to your perspectives noted above. You can tag it illogical or whatever other term makes you feel good about yourself.
RE: RE: RE: Is there some limitation on posters being able to
Would you mind to outline how I am being illogical. Your claim, please back it up
Give me a little time as I am at my sons basketball tryouts. Will respond in a bit as to your perspectives noted above. You can tag it illogical or whatever other term makes you feel good about yourself.
Now we have to be more balanced when criticizing a GM whose product so far is 7-16 under his watch.
When we get out of the cycle where for every good move by Gettleman is offset by two poor moves, and we actually have a winning record, then we can address this need for balance.
Now we have to be more balanced when criticizing a GM whose product so far is 7-16 under his watch.
When we get out of the cycle where for every good move by Gettleman is offset by two poor moves, and we actually have a winning record, then we can address this need for balance.
Bottom line -- if the Giants are to compete for the playoffs next year and beyond they need to:
- Have more than 150M on the field
- Add several talented players
- Not add any scholarship players only because they are "stabilizing, good in the locker room, or know the system"
- Not add any players because "they had to" or "what was the alternative"
Whether they have an average not good amount of cap space, Gettleman needs to do something he's not done yet: do a good job acquiring veteran players this offseason.
I think if anyone says there hasn't been positives with Gettleman then there is a good possibility of being jaded. Similar of posters who say there are no negatives.
I think Gettleman has done a good job of getting out of some bad contracts, while I also admit the solder mistake. His drafts have shown signs of adding good foundation building blocks. The giants finally won't be up against the cap next year. Now I'm guessing you'll find my positives to not b be positives at all which makes most of this thread irrelevant and tiring because your view, nor my view is necessarily strong. Chances are we both have some right and some wrong. We're only speaking about what we think, which is why there isn't any reason to hold too close to what we believe considering we're wrong often. We go after each other's throats and snark back and forth to each other which signals a lack of value from what each other is saying.
I will end on this
I think anyone not willing to admit the successes and mistakes aren't being logical.
Now we have to be more balanced when criticizing a GM whose product so far is 7-16 under his watch.
When we get out of the cycle where for every good move by Gettleman is offset by two poor moves, and we actually have a winning record, then we can address this need for balance.
You don't have to do anything. You didn't read that, you made that up. I'm not sure what is with balanced thinking and waiting to see how things ultimately turn it versus assuming. Different philosophies
- alleging McL's use of the phrase "average cap space" for the Giants was purposefully misleading when from only a sheer $ or ranking perspective its about right.
- more comically using this one phrase as how he is "hood-winking" the fans of the NY Giants as to the true facts behind the state of the team.
- beating the drum in your posts that the Giants are in good shape or indeed better off than the average team when it comes to the cap when me/others have pointed out the more relevant perspective is to see the Giant's current problems are not due to being cap constrained but moreso on the players it is actually used on.
- pinning your hopes that our aged GM will suddenly recognize and learn from his mistakes, excuse me...human error, and think behavior will be very different next year
- complaining there is not enough balance about takes on DG when there is no known constraint that I am aware of that keeps you, me or others from sharing those on BBI
- alleging McL's use of the phrase "average cap space" for the Giants was purposefully misleading when from only a sheer $ or ranking perspective its about right.
- more comically using this one phrase as how he is "hood-winking" the fans of the NY Giants as to the true facts behind the state of the team.
- beating the drum in your posts that the Giants are in good shape or indeed better off than the average team when it comes to the cap when me/others have pointed out the more relevant perspective is to see the Giant's current problems are not due to being cap constrained but moreso on the players it is actually used on.
- pinning your hopes that our aged GM will suddenly recognize and learn from his mistakes, excuse me...human error, and think behavior will be very different next year
- complaining there is not enough balance about takes on DG when there is no known constraint that I am aware of that keeps you, me or others from sharing those on BBI
Is that enough?
I don't find unreasonable that the term average was possibly meant as a critique.
I don't agree with your phrase "beating the drum". I find that inaccurate. I think the giants are in good cap shape next year, not unreasonable
Pinning my hopes that a human learns from mistakes. I wouldn't call it home, it's a reasonable possibility. You and I both the struggle of learning from our mistakes, humility helps. Is Gettleman can't lower himself to see and attempt to fix the mistakes then he isn't fit for the job. This remains to be seen for me. Not unreasonable.
Perhaps I am complaining, I don't like to and try to refrain, but I don't always do what is best. I still don't see how that is unreasonable to express me view on the thinking process. Perhaps I have read people wrong, certainly a possibility. Although the last part of your posters infers that I am telling people what they must and must not do. Absolutely not, I can't tell anyone what to do, I see it as adding my pov. I don't see that as unreasonable.
So here we are again, you say this, I say that. Oh well, thanks for the reply. I certainly will continue to chew on your view on how I have responded on this thread, because even though I feel you are more than likely wrong I have to admit it would be a difficult for me to take advice from you considering how you don't seem open to others advice. But that is a personal feeling that needs to be discounted on my side when reading suggestions from yourself to not bias myself and lose out on possibly learning something. No need to respond if you don't wish to, I've had my fill with this thread and topic really.✌
as to his use of the phrase average cap space in his opinions.
It was pointed out to you that he generally wasn't and that criticism of cap management and the players it was used on was the far more relevant issue than just relying on the team being in good cap shape.
You then move onto a soap box about being logical and balanced when giving point of views. But of course don't really tell anybody else what to do.
And now its I am likely wrong but you have had your fill and are moving on.
I think if anyone says there hasn't been positives with Gettleman then there is a good possibility of being jaded. Similar of posters who say there are no negatives.
I think Gettleman has done a good job of getting out of some bad contracts, while I also admit the solder mistake. [quote]
I think Gettleman has had to get out of as many bad contracts that he himself created as he has of those he inherited.
[quote]His drafts have shown signs of adding good foundation building blocks.
I'm not going to give the guy a trophy for picking good players in the top 6 of each round. Even if this represents an unfair standard, so be it, but Giants fans are so battered by the memories of Reese that we're now treating merely not failing as a roaring success.
Quote:
The giants finally won't be up against the cap next year.
More than half of the dead money that is hamstringing the Giants this year is due to Gettleman himself. So I'm not going to give him credit for not (yet) sinking next year's roster with dead money yet again.
Quote:
Now I'm guessing you'll find my positives to not b be positives at all which makes most of this thread irrelevant and tiring because your view, nor my view is necessarily strong.
Well my view is based on what Gettleman has already done, whereas most of his supporters point to what he'll have the chance to do next offseason. I'll stick to what has happened already instead of wishful thinking.
Quote:
Chances are we both have some right and some wrong. We're only speaking about what we think, which is why there isn't any reason to hold too close to what we believe considering we're wrong often.
No, I'm pretty clearly talking about things Gettleman has unequivocally done since taking over as GM.
Quote:
We go after each other's throats and snark back and forth to each other which signals a lack of value from what each other is saying.
I will end on this
I think anyone not willing to admit the successes and mistakes aren't being logical.
The problem isn't admitting that there have been some successes and missteps. The problem is when people act like the mistakes are no big deal, or that they're not representative of the same systemic failures we had under the previous regime as well. The only thing that appears to have changed from one regime to the next is college scouting actually looking for football players instead of drooling over triangle numbers. That's not enough to call DG a good GM IMO.
Just to be clear I'm not trying to make the case that Gettleman is a good gm nor a bad one. My whole point really is that I think sometimes on topics like this sides get picked with no real intention of changing minds regardless of the results whether it's only focusing on Gettleman's errors or successes.
You and I just think differently on this and that's ok, it's good actually. I understand where you are coming from even if I don't agree with the direction. You are projecting mistakes ahead because of mistakes that have happened. I get it, I understand. I am choosing to let things play out versus predicting. If me being right about Gettleman was detrimental to my career then I would say odds are in favor of repeating mistakes, but you and I don't agree on what were mistakes and were not. We are far apart on this and I don't really see the point of going further. I respect your POV even if you don't respect mine. All fine.
Just to be clear I'm not trying to make the case that Gettleman is a good gm nor a bad one. My whole point really is that I think sometimes on topics like this sides get picked with no real intention of changing minds regardless of the results whether it's only focusing on Gettleman's errors or successes.
You and I just think differently on this and that's ok, it's good actually. I understand where you are coming from even if I don't agree with the direction. You are projecting mistakes ahead because of mistakes that have happened. I get it, I understand. I am choosing to let things play out versus predicting. If me being right about Gettleman was detrimental to my career then I would say odds are in favor of repeating mistakes, but you and I don't agree on what were mistakes and were not. We are far apart on this and I don't really see the point of going further. I respect your POV even if you don't respect mine. All fine.
I appreciate where you're coming from and for the record, want to be clear that I respect you and your opinion even though I (clearly) feel strongly about Gettleman (and perhaps even moreso, Abrams) being a liability for this team's future.
Just to be clear I'm not trying to make the case that Gettleman is a good gm nor a bad one. My whole point really is that I think sometimes on topics like this sides get picked with no real intention of changing minds regardless of the results whether it's only focusing on Gettleman's errors or successes.
You and I just think differently on this and that's ok, it's good actually. I understand where you are coming from even if I don't agree with the direction. You are projecting mistakes ahead because of mistakes that have happened. I get it, I understand. I am choosing to let things play out versus predicting. If me being right about Gettleman was detrimental to my career then I would say odds are in favor of repeating mistakes, but you and I don't agree on what were mistakes and were not. We are far apart on this and I don't really see the point of going further. I respect your POV even if you don't respect mine. All fine.
I appreciate where you're coming from and for the record, want to be clear that I respect you and your opinion even though I (clearly) feel strongly about Gettleman (and perhaps even moreso, Abrams) being a liability for this team's future.
Don't look at it as WOW 60M that will go a long way. No look at it as 60M is league average it will go a league average amount of way... It also give management just enough leeway to move the gun from their kneecaps to their foreheads. It's actually quite dangerous and could become a huge albatross if not managed very carefully.
Man, you sure had a lot to say but nicely done McL.
I really liked this nugget, it made me ponder a bit over my first cup of coffee...
According to overthecap the giants are tenth in the league for cap space for 2020. Tenth isn't average, but seems to be a stretch of the truth to make a point.
Spotrac is all messed up right now, they have every player counting twice. I'm not sure what's happened to them. But a few weeks ago they had the Giants at #14 with 60 million.
Also the numbers do move a bit over the course of a season as teams make trades, release players, and sign players. But being #14 I considered average.
Also OverTheCap showed the Giants at 65 million before the move with Solder to make 7.5 million of salary bonus. I can see that they adjusted Solder's contract, but their 2020 cap space never changed. Which was why I went to Spotrac in the first place. I have also seen 60M quoted as the Giant's projected cap space from numerous writers. So I am not sure about OTC's numbers at this point. Maybe they are correct and everybody else is wrong...
In any case, even on OTC, there is a top tier of teams that goes from 110+M down to about 10M more than the Giants. The Gieants are at or near the top of the middle tier which spans from the Giants down to about 12 - 14M less than the Giants, and then there is a bottom tier that ranges from about 25M to -5M. Most teams are in that middle tier and are pretty closely clustered.
How many teams have two of their top contracts ripe for cutting?
Don't look at it as WOW 60M that will go a long way. No look at it as 60M is league average it will go a league average amount of way... It also give management just enough leeway to move the gun from their kneecaps to their foreheads. It's actually quite dangerous and could become a huge albatross if not managed very carefully.
Man, you sure had a lot to say but nicely done McL.
I really liked this nugget, it made me ponder a bit over my first cup of coffee...
According to overthecap the giants are tenth in the league for cap space for 2020. Tenth isn't average, but seems to be a stretch of the truth to make a point.
Spotrac is all messed up right now, they have every player counting twice. I'm not sure what's happened to them. But a few weeks ago they had the Giants at #14 with 60 million.
Also the numbers do move a bit over the course of a season as teams make trades, release players, and sign players. But being #14 I considered average.
Also OverTheCap showed the Giants at 65 million before the move with Solder to make 7.5 million of salary bonus. I can see that they adjusted Solder's contract, but their 2020 cap space never changed. Which was why I went to Spotrac in the first place. I have also seen 60M quoted as the Giant's projected cap space from numerous writers. So I am not sure about OTC's numbers at this point. Maybe they are correct and everybody else is wrong...
In any case, even on OTC, there is a top tier of teams that goes from 110+M down to about 10M more than the Giants. The Gieants are at or near the top of the middle tier which spans from the Giants down to about 12 - 14M less than the Giants, and then there is a bottom tier that ranges from about 25M to -5M. Most teams are in that middle tier and are pretty closely clustered.
Honestly, I didn't think about the numbers being rather fluid or the potential to change with extensions or cuts. I apologize, my mistake.
To complete what I was saying above about average. Like I said, the last time I checked it was a few weeks ago shortly after the start of the season. The Giants were #14. My intent was certainly not to be misleading or hyperbolic.
But, the real takeaway is what JG and GD are saying. I was attempting to put our cap mistakes and cap situation in better context. There is an ongoing narrative that the Giants have a TON of cap space in 2020. Well, that's a false narrative no matter what their exact relative position is. The Dolphins and Colts have a TON of cap space... The Giants have about 60% of them and are in a middle tier clustered with a lot of other teams that have a similar amount of cap space. But in all likelihood, some teams made some moves that during this season that have taken them down a bit, and I haven't been checking it regularly.
If the Giants were team on the edge of being able to seriously compete for a SB and they had this much space, that would put them in an excellent position. But the Giants are not that. The majority of the free cap space coming available is from Manning, Beckham and Vernon coming off the books. So at this point the more accurate statement is that the Giants still have a bottom 20% roster, and slightly more than an average amount of cap space. It still doesn't look like the team is in a position to make a significant leap forward next year.
I never expected the Giants to be good this year. But I was looking for improvement this year and with the team reaching playoff contender status next year. Can anybody honestly say that this team is improved over last year or the year before that. Does anybody believe that the Giants will be serious playoff contenders next year? This year looks like another 11 or 12 losses. Playoff contender would be a massive jump... I'm squinting hard, but I just don't see it. There doesn't seem to be enough improvement fast enough to reach that. To have that expectation with the current management in place seems illogical to me, seems like blind hope.
I gave him praise for purging bad contracts, and until I started looking close, I gave him credit for good drafting. I had been taking a middle road that he should have more time (though I've been done with PS for a while). It's only in the past week or two that I have been reconsidering whether DG should get more time.
In the last week or two I think many are really questioning
the seriousness of what is going on here, and not just the bashers. I think all levels of fans have dropped their respect for both the Front Office & the Players down a few notches from where ever they had it before.
Bad enough to have a losing record but to this sense that the season is shot before even Halloween each year is completely disheartening.
So as I drink my first cup of coffee on gameday I ask myself and you fans my repeated question for the last 3 years...
What are we doing?
RE: In the last week or two I think many are really questioning
the seriousness of what is going on here, and not just the bashers. I think all levels of fans have dropped their respect for both the Front Office & the Players down a few notches from where ever they had it before.
Bad enough to have a losing record but to this sense that the season is shot before even Halloween each year is completely disheartening.
So as I drink my first cup of coffee on gameday I ask myself and you fans my repeated question for the last 3 years...
What are we doing?
I was hopeful at 2-4.
But when the team with last year s worst record, travels east for a 1:00 game with their rookie head coach and rookie quarterback, and leads 17-0 in the first quarter , when the Giants has 10 days to prepare, it does lend credence to your question.
However, I still look at today s game as a meaningful game unlike many others. I am not confident they can win or even keep it competitive, but I m hoping they will.
We all know how a win picks up a fan base and the team. A win would be good tonic and reason to be hopeful going into the Cowboy game.
RE: In the last week or two I think many are really questioning
the seriousness of what is going on here, and not just the bashers. I think all levels of fans have dropped their respect for both the Front Office & the Players down a few notches from where ever they had it before.
Bad enough to have a losing record but to this sense that the season is shot before even Halloween each year is completely disheartening.
So as I drink my first cup of coffee on gameday I ask myself and you fans my repeated question for the last 3 years...
What are we doing?
It's just a perpetual "Groundhog Day" when it comes to NY Giants football
if you go back and look at the past couple years, is who is going to succeed Eli Manning and lead the Giants into the future at QB, the most important position on the field.
In navigating the draft, now with hindsight of what was available and who's doing what now that they're in the league, Gettleman appears to have knocked it out of the park. While navigating that minefield, he also picked up an all world talent in addition to avoiding potential landmines at QB that could have been taken instead. "Even though he is great, you can't take Saquon Barkley when you have the opportunity to take a QB". He got both.
That's a HUGE positive. HUGE. Don't acknowledge it. Fine. As crick has so poignantly pointed out... That's your choice.
Joe - I don't know how serious we can think about beating Detroit
I haven't watched them but for a Monday night game a few weeks ago and they gave the Packers all they could handle.
Their offense showed some good things and Stafford looked in command all night as well. They kept getting stuck in the red zone and had some awful penalties that robbed them from winning. Kicked too many FGs instead of touchdowns.
BTW - their kicker Prater was impressive too.
I don't know if our defense can hold down any veteran QB in this league...
April 2018: You can't take anything but QB at two
May 2018-April 2019: You took Barkley but if you don't find the next QB it's all for not.
May 2019-August 2019: We took the wrong QB
September 2019 through current: Yeah, but.... We should have taken an OL/DL instead of Saquon...
RE: The numero uno question for this franchise....
if you go back and look at the past couple years, is who is going to succeed Eli Manning and lead the Giants into the future at QB, the most important position on the field.
In navigating the draft, now with hindsight of what was available and who's doing what now that they're in the league, Gettleman appears to have knocked it out of the park. While navigating that minefield, he also picked up an all world talent in addition to avoiding potential landmines at QB that could have been taken instead. "Even though he is great, you can't take Saquon Barkley when you have the opportunity to take a QB". He got both.
That's a HUGE positive. HUGE. Don't acknowledge it. Fine. As crick has so poignantly pointed out... That's your choice.
I m beginning To believe Shurmur doesnt know how to use that all world talent to maximize his impact on games.
Doesnt it seem that the Giants give up on the run game rather quickly
RE: RE: The numero uno question for this franchise....
if you go back and look at the past couple years, is who is going to succeed Eli Manning and lead the Giants into the future at QB, the most important position on the field.
In navigating the draft, now with hindsight of what was available and who's doing what now that they're in the league, Gettleman appears to have knocked it out of the park. While navigating that minefield, he also picked up an all world talent in addition to avoiding potential landmines at QB that could have been taken instead. "Even though he is great, you can't take Saquon Barkley when you have the opportunity to take a QB". He got both.
That's a HUGE positive. HUGE. Don't acknowledge it. Fine. As crick has so poignantly pointed out... That's your choice.
I m beginning To believe Shurmur doesnt know how to use that all world talent to maximize his impact on games.
Doesnt it seem that the Giants give up on the run game rather quickly
I agree with that, and that is why my view on Shurmur has soured. Especially with a rookie QB in there.
April 2018: You can't take anything but QB at two
May 2018-April 2019: You took Barkley but if you don't find the next QB it's all for not.
May 2019-August 2019: We took the wrong QB
September 2019 through current: Yeah, but.... We should have taken an OL/DL instead of Saquon...
As I have mentioned to some of the other defenders on here, it is just flawed and unfair to extrapolate takes on here over some larger group or groupthink. It may be helpful and/or efficient to do so that you don't have to reply with every single poster you debate with, but it doesn't make any more true.
And btw - not sure about the "knock it out of the park" comment yet either. Where are you going with that here on Oct 27?
With this team currently is Shurmur, not even Bettcher. It was fair to point out Shurmur's record with Cleveland, while it was also fair to point out how hopeless the Cleveland situation was in hope that perhaps Shurmur learned from his experience, and the possibility that any good skills he had were hopefully overshadowed by the situation in Cleveland, all reasonable/logical.
However, it is looking like Shurmur is what he is, a decent to good OC. It's hard to find decent HC's not to mention good He's.
And what is so fascinating about that, in the spirit of THIS thread...
With this team currently is Shurmur, not even Bettcher. It was fair to point out Shurmur's record with Cleveland, while it was also fair to point out how hopeless the Cleveland situation was in hope that perhaps Shurmur learned from his experience, and the possibility that any good skills he had were hopefully overshadowed by the situation in Cleveland, all reasonable/logical.
However, it is looking like Shurmur is what he is, a decent to good OC. It's hard to find decent HC's not to mention good He's.
Agreed. Our inability to field a consistent run game given the makeup of our roster is infuriating.
home run. And we certainly haven't seen that yet outside of a few quarters in the Tampa game. I totally want DJ to succeed but your nuts to call home run thus far.
Furthermore because you would pick DJ over those other QBs certainly doesn't mean home run either. Seeing warts on other guys doesn't mean our guy doesn't have his own.
Lastly, you are going to get a lot of feedback on at least one of the QBs in your comparative list...
home run. And we certainly haven't seen that yet outside of a few quarters in the Tampa game. I totally want DJ to succeed but your nuts to call home run thus far.
Furthermore because you would pick DJ over those other QBs certainly doesn't mean home run either. Seeing warts on other guys doesn't mean our guy doesn't have his own.
Lastly, you are going to get a lot of feedback on at least one of the QBs in your comparative list...
I need to see Jones pick it up a little bit here. Since his electric debut in TB, he's sort of trending in the wrong direction.
Not totally his fault. The game in Foxboro was a tall task without Barkley, Shepard and Engram... can't fault him for that.
7 picks in the last 4 games is bad, though. He's got to clean that up. Holding the ball too long, forcing it into bad spots... it's rookie stuff, so I'm not going nuts over it, but I'd like to see him bounce back here and play a strong game today.
home run. And we certainly haven't seen that yet outside of a few quarters in the Tampa game. I totally want DJ to succeed but your nuts to call home run thus far.
Furthermore because you would pick DJ over those other QBs certainly doesn't mean home run either. Seeing warts on other guys doesn't mean our guy doesn't have his own.
Lastly, you are going to get a lot of feedback on at least one of the QBs in your comparative list...
Agree with all of that.
Standing by it.
I do like that about your posts from time to time. You go full-head-of-steam with little to no reservations...
That's something our buddy Dave Gettleman likes to call......
I need to see Jones pick it up a little bit here. Since his electric debut in TB, he's sort of trending in the wrong direction.
Not totally his fault. The game in Foxboro was a tall task without Barkley, Shepard and Engram... can't fault him for that.
7 picks in the last 4 games is bad, though. He's got to clean that up. Holding the ball too long, forcing it into bad spots... it's rookie stuff, so I'm not going nuts over it, but I'd like to see him bounce back here and play a strong game today.
Agree. I ma completely realistic around wanting him to use 2019 to make mistakes and learning and developing from it.
My early thoughts mirror yours above. In addition, would like to seem him hit his outlets a bit quicker and not only scan the middle of the field. I am also okay if he takes off a bit earlier to get out of that pocket. Lastly, I would like to see a little more heat on that ball.
RE: That's something our buddy Dave Gettleman likes to call......
Yup. One thing I will give Daniel credit for... he hangs in there. He does not give up on a play. He's not afraid to get hit and he'll stand tall in the pocket as long as he can before he bails.
Obviously this isn't all good - in some cases, this is how he's getting stripped or throwing INT's because he's not yet found that balance in terms of just knowing when to live to see another down.
Not angry about any of it; I expect him to make some mistakes - I just want to see him learn from them rather than continue to repeat them.
April 2018: You can't take anything but QB at two
May 2018-April 2019: You took Barkley but if you don't find the next QB it's all for not.
May 2019-August 2019: We took the wrong QB
September 2019 through current: Yeah, but.... We should have taken an OL/DL instead of Saquon...
Come on man, this is lazy. Anytime you mash together a bunch of views you will find hypocrisy and incongruity.
And Daves job is not to beat out a bunch of guys on a message board. Its his job to field a team and coaching staff that can beat other teams on the field. So far he has been lacking in that regard.
I dont think he is incompetent, and do think he has been hamstrung by the Mara bros, but he needs to do a better job regardless.
he's the one guy that all of the pundits, fans, and talking heads would have taken LAST out of that group.
That's a hell of a make believe story you've setup to knock down.
Plenty of talking heads, pundits, and fans thought Barkley was a no-brainer and plenty also thought Haskins was a product of OSU and an interpersonal disaster.
Wrapping these discussions in a hyperbolic bow is almost always when they go sideways.
RE: The numero uno question for this franchise....
if you go back and look at the past couple years, is who is going to succeed Eli Manning and lead the Giants into the future at QB, the most important position on the field.
In navigating the draft, now with hindsight of what was available and who's doing what now that they're in the league, Gettleman appears to have knocked it out of the park. While navigating that minefield, he also picked up an all world talent in addition to avoiding potential landmines at QB that could have been taken instead. "Even though he is great, you can't take Saquon Barkley when you have the opportunity to take a QB". He got both.
That's a HUGE positive. HUGE. Don't acknowledge it. Fine. As crick has so poignantly pointed out... That's your choice.
Wake me up when your 10-6 prediction is actually sincere. Until then, enjoy your rose-colored glasses. I appreciate and respect the way you approach your fandom, but I can't just pretend the Giants are flawless and Gettleman has some sort of Midas Touch the way that you seem to.
RE: That's something our buddy Dave Gettleman likes to call......
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dsxtImDVMig
Yeah, but political - pretty sure a post about Israel and Middle East tensions doesn't fly, even in Arabic.
Once you see it you cant unsee it.
I'd rather be 2-5 with this group than 2-5 with the other, that's for sure. Good post.
My sense is they were bickering at coaches and the FO, not at each other (with the exception of Collins /apple).
I think the malcontents were justified in being malcontented.
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better than a bickering group of losers just as adept at piling up ugly Ls?
I'd rather be 2-5 with this group than 2-5 with the other, that's for sure. Good post.
Especially since we're about to go 8-1 to finish at 10-6 like you predicted!!!
Im glad you enjoyed the puff piece.
Thats about all the enjoyment this team can offer up.
They still inexplicably make snide comments about the coach on a thread that has nothing to do with him
They still inexplicably make snide comments about the coach on a thread that has nothing to do with him
I know, right! These ingrates just don't appreciate the awesome job Pat Shurmur and Dave Gettleman are doing! It's insanity.
Makes you feel better??
Are you really going to reason that because you don't like the Coach and GM that they are fair game for any negative post on any thread? If that's the predominant thought, no wonder so many of you sound like whiny cunts who supposedly have all the answers.
Now you are trying to be some beacon of positivity, give me a fucking break.
Now you are trying to be some beacon of positivity, give me a fucking break.
Complain and bitch?? Or point out idiotic posts and posters.
I'm just wondering why if the team pisses you guys off so much that you continue to post here. A misery loves company rationale?
Hell, the last few days have seen posts by "rational" posters outlining exactly what needs to be done to be successful.
Of course I'm going to point out the delusion of that. It's like a huge circle jerk with one hand on the buddies cock and the other hand on a pitchfork.
It's just the opposite end of the spectrum of predicting everybody should be fired or cut every single year, which will be more of the same miserable existence next year.
It's kind of like The Force. Balance. Glass half empty, glass half full, yada yada yada.
Just the dim ones and ones who intentionally troll.
And when the Giants start doing well, those guys inexplicably disappear!
It's just the opposite end of the spectrum of predicting everybody should be fired or cut every single year, which will be more of the same miserable existence next year.
It's kind of like The Force. Balance. Glass half empty, glass half full, yada yada yada.
LOL. Oh, my mistake, when you predicted 10-6 you didn't actually think that the Giants would go 10-6, you did it just to balance to the naysayers. You really knew that we'd be awful again but just didn't feel like saying that.
I have an alternate theory.....it's that your full of shit, and the truth is that you looked at this roster and thought it was really good. Which shows you don't know much about football, because it was obvious to all the smart posters on this board that a team with our defense wasn't going anywhere this year.
Just the dim ones and ones who intentionally troll.
And when the Giants start doing well, those guys inexplicably disappear!
Yeah the dim bulbs that saw this season coming a mile away.
I rather be a dim bulb than a flip flopping hypocrite who argues vehemently that playing Jones this year is not necessarily a good thing, or some other obtuse vague pedantic variation of that thought then starts a thread about how jones has breathed life back into the season.
Just like the fire everybody crowd who predicted the demise of Eli, the firing of Coughlin, etc... You'll eventually be right if you keep saying the same thing over and over :)
You don't know any other team than Coughlin or Eli, and in your adult life, you associate losing with them because it's all you know. It's understandable to want them gone.
Just remember this lesson in disarray, too, when the Giants go through another cycle of good again, and then bad again.
I dont get why your taking it his whole thread back to this argument. If Coughlin was still able to coach I think he would be coaching right now.
If anything this whole debacle has shown that the whole band aide needs to be ripped off all at once and change needs to be quicker not a slow death by taking one half measure over another.
The transition stages always suck, but they are necessary. If DG came in cleaned house on day 1 instead of prolonging this whole thing It wouldnt be that hard to understand what the hell has been going on.
He came in and tried to build around the "core" (I use that term loosely) of players he had. They were clearly garbage, so 8 games into the season he started the full on tear down.
Seems like a pretty reasonable process to me. Not for the instant gratification generation, but for must that understand the human element of evaluation and management.
I don't think you see the disconnect in that....
"Put Eli back in!" lol!
Doing a real bang-up job in the Jacksonville front office, isn't he?
Doing a real bang up job in Jacksonville right now./s
I only bring this up because Coughlin and Jerry worked together to pick the groceries and its becoming terrible clear with Coughlin having a major say in Jacksonvilles groceries that that part of job has passed him by.
Since the start of 2018, Gettleman's team is 7-16 and Coughlin's is 8-15. I believe the burden of argument is on you here, not me.
Older guys are winning, older guys are losing, younger guys are winning, younger guys are losing.
At the end of the day, Football is still football. Give me a guy that's been around it for a long time and knows the ins and outs. It's not as complicated as the analytics crowd makes it out to be.
In other words, there is never a reason to make a change to an organization that is failing dismally because there's a chance it might not work out? I used to make the joke of St. Tommy, Coach for Life no matter how many losing seasons he piled up, but it's becoming clearer that you actually believe in that.
I usually like FMiC posts most of the time, but he does come off as a know it all and has been wrong plenty, just like the rest of us. Heck, I remember he stated in no uncertain terms multiple time that Rich Seubert would never play again after breaking his leg...........
Based on what, exactly? Things that happened a decade ago? Must be, because their recent performance is pathetic.
I usually like FMiC posts most of the time, but he does come off as a know it all and has been wrong plenty, just like the rest of us. Heck, I remember he stated in no uncertain terms multiple time that Rich Seubert would never play again after breaking his leg...........
I'd argue that he had the worst roster during those years, that he actually got the MOST out of some of those dudes (Flowers best year was his rookie year), Pugh, and Richberg.
If we'd have kept Coughlin and given him the defense that was given to McAdoo, we would have been better.
The 2015 Giants were 6th in the NFL in scoring. Since then? We've been 26th, 30th, 16th, and currently 25th. Coughlin was an offensive guy. The offense wasn't a problem under him.
The 2015 Giants were 6-10, and of those 10 games they lost, 7 of them they were tied or had the lead in the final two minutes.
Coughlin made chicken salad out of chicken shit those years.
I know my limitations in being right or wrong, but on a board where we're seeing "blueprints" on how to succeed almost daily now, I'm wondering why the fuck all of you armchair GM's are wallowing on BBI instead of earning a living in the NFL!
2005: 3rd
2006: 11th
2007: 14th
2008: 3rd
2009: 8th
2010: 7th
2011: 9th
2012: 6th
2013: 28th
2014: 13th
2015: 6th
Since:
2016: 26th
2017: 30th
2018: 16th
2019: 25th
Coughlin did not forget how to coach/gameplan offense. You want to talk consistent? That's consistent.
Where this team turned sour was when they made Coughlin change his tried and true offense and fire Gilbride, after taking Reese's side and pondering "Why did it take us so long to see that Jernigan can play?" -John Mara 2013
The answer is remove variables until you find and eliminate all of them.
The Giants have sucked for 7 years through 3 consecutive head coaches, 2 GMs, and a major flushing out of the roster.
What's the common variable?
I'm still waiting for all these characters who have been cast aside to really stick it to the Giants or go on these revenge tours.
There's not a single character; management, coaching, and player who have left or benched the Giants should regret.
For a guy who still tells Parcells stories fondly. This is quite an amusing quote.
Defensive rank 2016: 2nd
Was McAdoo a defensive or offensive coach?
And wasn't Spagnolo the DC in both 2015 and 2016?
So another question would be, did Spagnolo himself turn the defense around from 30th in the NFL to 2nd in one season, or could it have been something else...
Things that make you go hmmmmmmm.
They dumped Gilbride's "tried and true" offense after 2013 because it was fucking putrid that year. 28th in both yardage and scoring.
What you are arguing is essentially that any coach that has ever won a championship should be granted lifetime tenure because, hey, he didn't forget how to coach!
Why is that? When did Bill Parcells ever miss the playoffs with the regularity of a metronome?
They dumped Gilbride's "tried and true" offense after 2013 because it was fucking putrid that year. 28th in both yardage and scoring.
What you are arguing is essentially that any coach that has ever won a championship should be granted lifetime tenure because, hey, he didn't forget how to coach!
The core of players deteriorated and they could no longer run 5 and 7 step drops because the offensive line failed.
The offensive scheme did not fail. The line did. Oh, and apparently we didn't insert Jernel Jernigan enough.
He could just jump to another team, become a special consultant, or hop upstairs if he needed a break....
If we're really going to play that game, Ben MacAdoo oversaw the most wins as Giant head coach since 2008.
He would have been a hell of a lot better than any garbage we've had in here since. And he might have even made the transition to the next era a little smoother.
But wait - those guys are all a bunch of malcontents who sucked! Because, see, I've been assured that Reese was the worst GM ever and left poor, poor Dave Gettleman with absolutely nothing.
If we're really going to play that game, Ben MacAdoo oversaw the most wins as Giant head coach since 2008.
Oh really, McAdoo the coordinator was responsible for the offense bouncing back?
Why don't the numbers of his two years as head coach reflect that? I think Tom Coughlin's numbers throughout his 14 years do actually back his claim up.
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He took the 30th ranked defense in 2015 and turned it into the 2nd ranked defense in 2016! Coaching magic!
But wait - those guys are all a bunch of malcontents who sucked! Because, see, I've been assured that Reese was the worst GM ever and left poor, poor Dave Gettleman with absolutely nothing.
Maybe with a leader in the locker room, somebody could have controlled those personalities and not let it get to that phase.
Another ironic comment when one proclaims themselves a Parcells fan.
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It's still the greatest con ever - 100% of the credit for everything that works, 0% of the blame for everything that didn't work.
Another ironic comment when one proclaims themselves a Parcells fan.
Totally.
Those two titles did not establish a sustainable model to follow. Neither of those was a great team.
How is that not abundantly clear?
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what a con.
Those two titles did not establish a sustainable model to follow. Neither of those was a great team.
How is that not abundantly clear?
If it wasn't a sustainable model, how did they do it twice?
5/7 years playoffs during that time frame. Started 6-2 nearly every single season during that time, and into 2012 as well. Seemed consistent and sustainable to me if we had just restocked the offensive line. Something you yourself used to band the drum about circa 2009-2010, Terps.
- Both had 2 SB wins
- Parcells made the playoffs 9 times out of 19 seasons
- Coughlin made the playoffs 9 times in 20 seasons
Yet, one has Greg's respect, despite leaving nearly every team he worked for in the lurch and the other guy is mocked as St. Tommy
Completely understandable, right?
He could just jump to another team, become a special consultant, or hop upstairs if he needed a break....
You're right of course - Parcells always took the easy way out, what with taking over the 1-15 Patriots, the 1-15 Jets, and the 5-11 Cowboys. Always the path of least resistance......
Yeah, totally on track. That's why they lost to the Eagles at home in the playoffs.
Blah blah blah Plax blah blah blah.
The Giants don't know how to operate in today's NFL. They've been lapped by two direct competitors in the division, and their response was to hire Gettleman and Shurmur. Oof.
You don't know any other team than Coughlin or Eli, and in your adult life, you associate losing with them because it's all you know. It's understandable to want them gone.
Just remember this lesson in disarray, too, when the Giants go through another cycle of good again, and then bad again.
Wrong again. I was 12 when the Giants won the Super Bowl in 86. So my guess is I've actually got more perspective on the team than you do.
Let's be honest, if the Giants did go 10-6 or better this year you're be the FIRST guy here startly weekly "I told you so threads." Can you even deny that? So it's only fair for you to eat some shit about how incredibly wrong about the team (and Eli) your'e been for YEARS now. I mean, you literally predicted an "Eli revenge tour" for each of the past two season when the rest of the planet could see the guy was cooked.
So maybe you don't know what your'e talking about and should have a bit of humility for once. Cause your'e track record on this site the past few years is as bad worse than anyone else's.
The Giants don't know how to operate in today's NFL. They've been lapped by two direct competitors in the division, and their response was to hire Gettleman and Shurmur. Oof.
There was no miracle about either of those teams. They were mentally tough and prepared.
They didn't have 13 pro-bowlers like the 2007 Dallas Cowboys, or the League MVP like the 2011 Green Bay Packers.
They were mentally tough, and prepared TEAMS, that pulled the absolute most out of inferior rosters.
That's a testament to Coughlin.
Also why are some tying DG to Coughlin. Moving on from Coughlin was the clean break, DG is supposed to be the new regime. Why replace him after 1.5 seasons? That isn't enough time to rebuild anything.
I find it odd there would be NYG fans who would have a bad thing to say about the guy.
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you probably were in middle school when Eli and Coughlin were winning Superbowls. Am I close? High school maybe?
You don't know any other team than Coughlin or Eli, and in your adult life, you associate losing with them because it's all you know. It's understandable to want them gone.
Just remember this lesson in disarray, too, when the Giants go through another cycle of good again, and then bad again.
Wrong again. I was 12 when the Giants won the Super Bowl in 86. So my guess is I've actually got more perspective on the team than you do.
Let's be honest, if the Giants did go 10-6 or better this year you're be the FIRST guy here startly weekly "I told you so threads." Can you even deny that? So it's only fair for you to eat some shit about how incredibly wrong about the team (and Eli) your'e been for YEARS now. I mean, you literally predicted an "Eli revenge tour" for each of the past two season when the rest of the planet could see the guy was cooked.
So maybe you don't know what your'e talking about and should have a bit of humility for once. Cause your'e track record on this site the past few years is as bad worse than anyone else's.
I honestly had forgotten I predicted 10-6. I almost never go on those "predict the record" or "Players only" threads because they are an exercise in futility. Who cares?
As far as Eli, no he never bounced back to the level I thought he would if he had some help. But are you really going to argue that I've been wrong about Eli for years?
I've predicted almost every move this franchise has made in regards to Eli. Wrong is a relative term.
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Particularly the second one, which you'll remember was a 9-7 team that won something like 7 games on 4th quarter comebacks. They were actually outscored that season. By every metric the worst team to ever win the Super Bowl.
The Giants don't know how to operate in today's NFL. They've been lapped by two direct competitors in the division, and their response was to hire Gettleman and Shurmur. Oof.
There was no miracle about either of those teams. They were mentally tough and prepared.
They didn't have 13 pro-bowlers like the 2007 Dallas Cowboys, or the League MVP like the 2011 Green Bay Packers.
They were mentally tough, and prepared TEAMS, that pulled the absolute most out of inferior rosters.
That's a testament to Coughlin.
No miracles? Ok...I guess the one I witnessed Eli engineer in person in New England didn't happen. Or the one in Dallas, or any of the 25 things that on their own could have kept the Giants out of the playoffs (remember Cruz being ruled as giving himself up in Arizona?).
The Giants were already descending when they won that Super Bowl. It was a middling team that got hot at the right time behind a clutch QB at the peak of his power.
But even if you disagree with my take on that, here's something you can't disagree with: that was 8 years ago. We're as far removed from that as the '86 team was from having John McVay as head coach. In other words, it's an eternity.
It's time to move the fuck on.
I find it odd there would be NYG fans who would have a bad thing to say about the guy.
This is the corner a lot of these guys paint themselves into.
In their minds, the entire organization is a joke and to listen to the rants, it has been that way throughout history except for 4 seasons, and even then, lo and behold, we were lucky in two of them!!
Let's also face the fact that most of these chuckleheads have an axe to grind with Gettleman because of the way he was hired. They hated him since day 1 because of it. All you have to do is look at the archives. He's Accorsi's puppet!!
Yeah, you have. And the franchise has been a complete embarrassment. With few exceptions (trading Beckham the most notable), their major decisions have all been wrong.
The Giants don't know how to operate in today's NFL. They've been lapped by two direct competitors in the division, and their response was to hire Gettleman and Shurmur. Oof.
I know you're an analytics/stats guy now but I'm surprised by seeing you spout this very bottom of the barrel commentary regarding the 2011 season. First off, you worship the ground BB walks on and have said basically you'd trade the entire franchise for him. That team beat him twice.
In a quarterback driven league, the 2011 Giants schedule included
Brady 2x
Rodgers 2x
Romo 2x
Brees
Ryan
It also included the very early version of the Seattle Seahawks teams that went to back to back Super Bowls. The Rex Ryan version of the Jets while they were still good, and the 49ers defense 2x.
The 2011 Giants team faced a gauntlet of a schedule based on modern NFL standards.
Two, that he had plenty left in the tank and he was about to go on a revenge tour and prove everyone wrong. You could not have been more wrong about that.
I remember in 2008 going into Pittsburgh and physically beating the hell out of them.
There were a lot of memories like those. Yeah, Eli was a HUGE part of those TEAMS. Mentally and Physically TOUGH TEAMS. He didn't have to do it by himself.
Why does that have to be rationalized or spun??
They were SB Champions, beating the perennial Super Bowl Champions.
The Jets do that and it transforms the direction of the league. The Giants do that and their own fans use it as evidence of their mediocrity.
You really can't make this shit up. Well, actually you can. And do.
They won the games they needed to. Including being down 2 TD's with under 5 to go in Dallas, which still required a blocked FG by JPP.
And the 2010 Superbowl Champion Green Bay Packers don't even make the postseason if Desean Jackson doesn't return that punt against the Giants. Every SB winner has to get breaks. It's part of it.
I remember in 2008 going into Pittsburgh and physically beating the hell out of them.
There were a lot of memories like those. Yeah, Eli was a HUGE part of those TEAMS. Mentally and Physically TOUGH TEAMS. He didn't have to do it by himself.
Fun memories, but I'm having a hard time understanding what they have to do with a single thing happening right now over 10 years later.
Well they could and maybe should have beaten Green Bay at home for their 10th win but got royally screwed by the refs on that Ballard TD right?
See what I did there?
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I remember Ahmad Bradshaw in Buffalo in 2007 hitting people so hard the letters in the NY helmet cracked. I remember Brandon Jacobs knocking Charles Woodson out on the first play of the game in -4 degrees in Green Bay in the NFC Championship. Strahan, Tuck, Osi and Pierce harrassing the sh-t out of offenses.
I remember in 2008 going into Pittsburgh and physically beating the hell out of them.
There were a lot of memories like those. Yeah, Eli was a HUGE part of those TEAMS. Mentally and Physically TOUGH TEAMS. He didn't have to do it by himself.
Fun memories, but I'm having a hard time understanding what they have to do with a single thing happening right now over 10 years later.
Just things I remembered in terms of Eli Manning miracle'ing the Giants to two Superbowls. Those Coughlin coached teams were so much more than Eli Manning. I should have quoted Terps but felt it was within the flow of the discussion.
Not trying to get into "remember whens" with you and I'm also aware the current Giants are 2-5.
Doesn't mean I need to beat up past accomplishments of this franchise/franchise greats because I'm distraught about it.
A lot of Giants fans are a joke. Nick Foles is more beloved by Eagles fans than Eli Manning is Giants fans. I truly believe that.
The Giants won those two titles and they were phenomenal experiences. Unfortunately, as we've all come to learn at tremendous cost as fans, the people running the Giants were completely unable or unwilling to self-scout and ask themselves WHY they won those titles. And was that "WHY" something they could actually recreate?
The proof is in the pudding...the Giants are approaching 30 games under .500 since that second title.
And yeah, I know...it's all the fault of two ghouls named Reese and Ross. Everyone else in the building did a great job, but those two guys sabotaged everything...and continue somehow to sabotage things almost two years after they were fired.
I don't use fukstick...
Most just dont like to admit he lost his fastball and that he was a part of the problem towards the end.
They were such phenomenal experiences that years later, you are arguing about the 2011 team being the worst ever to win a Super Bowl. As if that has any pertinence.
What we had from 2004-2012 was sustainable, and it was working. When we were winning, it was because we were winning the battles in the trenches. Which is exactly what Tom Coughlin said in his inaguaral PC, that we needed to get back to being physical, inflicting our will on people, and winning the battle on both sides at the LOS. And that's the type of football we played from 2004 to 2012. By 2011, the lines were falling apart. THAT was what was not sustainable. But it could have been had the front office had the foresight to keep them stocked.
Instead, we changed gears to basketball on grass post 2013.
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The Giants won those two titles and they were phenomenal experiences
They were such phenomenal experiences that years later, you are arguing about the 2011 team being the worst ever to win a Super Bowl. As if that has any pertinence.
It has enormous pertinence! Ownership was fooled into thinking they were running a well-oiled machine. They didn't ask any tough questions, they didn't self-scout, they didn't keep up with the league as it changed following the 2011 CBA. They just continued with the same approach, churning through sacrificial lambs - Gilbride, Fewell, Coughlin, McAdoo, Reese, Eli, (Bettcher soon) - as they reacted to failure after failure.
This team reacts to problems rather than proactively trying to create a winning program. I've been saying those exact words on this board for years.
An entire cleansing in the salary cap era isn't an option. And even if you get rid of the HC and GM, if ownership is part of the problem, well, being naive to think you can get rid of them is putting it mildly.
We did a house cleaning. People didn't like the results, so now it isn't referred to as a house cleaning - it is referred to as a half-measure.
But that sort of follows the reasoning around here. we didn't draft Darnold last year and picked a RB, which was the worst possible move ever - Remember the "perfect storm" rants about the QB falling into our laps? But interestingly enough, that isn't the argument anymore. The argument is that we drafted Barkley instead of picking OL and edge rushers. Anyone know why that changed?
I'll give you a hint - something about seeing ghosts......
Read what Britt wrote. the team declined as their OL declined. and then they went a swath of drafts missing on almost every pick. What about that screams they were running a well-oiled machine? You don't even know what questions were asked, let alone "tough" ones.
The funny thing is that you listed about 8 scapegoats. all of who were dismissed, which is pretty damn hard to do when you run a well-oiled machine and refuse to make changes.
So in short, they didn't make changes, except for the many changes they made. Got it. Drafting shitty for a decade has a tangible impact. Is that really too hard a concept to grasp?
Link - ( New Window )
Wait - so all we need is a mobile QB??
If we picked Jackson, you'd either shit all over him or complain he wasn't be used "correctly".
But then again, thinking the Darnold pick is a better one than Barkley doesn't register as a stupid comment to you, so likely not much will.
But at the end of the day, all I want is competitive competent football, don't really care how they get there.
January 2020 - Bettcher is fired
January 2021 - Shurmur and Gettleman are fired
Then they'll hire Abrams, and the cycle will start over.
Keep saying that. In the meantime a disaster is actually playing out in front of us with Barkley at running back.
Here's the point you are at - the team will suck ass until they win. And every move will be the wrong one, even the ones you are advocating them to make.
In what world can they possibly not be in a lose-lose siyuation with you?
This team is 7-16 since Gettleman and Shurmur took over. By the end of this season that number will be around 10-22.
That's it. The rest is bullshit.
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on a team playing from behind is a recipe for disaster. Just look at him with the Ravens when he has to throw the ball, or are we just going to get a highlight reel of rushes??
Keep saying that. In the meantime a disaster is actually playing out in front of us with Barkley at running back.
Man, you're all over this place.
The Giants 2011 Super Bowl wasn't statistically good enough for you, but we're now supposed to kick ourselves in the nuts over a guy who has played pretty well, was exposed in the playoffs, and doesn't seem well equipped to "pass" his team to victory in big games.
The point I have been driving at a million different ways is that John Mara needs to get his head out of his ass and realize he needs a completely new approach. Gettleman and Shurmur both suck at their jobs, but they're symptoms of that fundamental problem.
This team is 7-16 since Gettleman and Shurmur took over. By the end of this season that number will be around 10-22.
That's it. The rest is bullshit.
I look at it as completely different sides.
One side realizes they don't have control over what the team does and tries to enjoy what they can from the times that the team has delivered.
The other side thinks they have the "blueprint" for success, thinks the entire organization is incompetent and is going to hammer the board daily on the way to change it, even if those "solutions" keep changing and sometime diametrically oppose one another.
wouldn't it be just easier to say you are frustrated and have no fucking clue what will work, or does that assault your sensibilities of loading up on cheap players, having a mobile QB and generating blueprints that don't work for any organization?
And if I wanted what was easier, I'd do what you and Britt do - just sway with the breeze.
But the other factor is lack of information. I'm perfectly fine and happy admitting I don't have enough information to go on, and neither do most people on this board. I think there's too much that goes on behind close doors that we will never see, but have direct outcomes on decisions.
I do have the ability to be critical, such as finally losing all confidence in Shurmur after last week's debacle. But i'm not going to berate everyone with my frustrations, doesn't seem like its worth it because it won't change a damn thing.
Was anybody here that hated the Gettleman hire from day one on this thread? Not a callout, just curious as to what changed your mind if so?
BBI: Dave Gettleman named Panthers' GM 1/9/13 - ( New Window )
If Darnold turns out to be a below average QB, the Barkley pick is justified.
I mean, we are talking about forgetting posts where the prefect storm existed for the Giants to turn the page from Eli and pick the QB sitting right there. I think the term "fireable offense" was used on bypassing this glorious opportunity.
Afterall, we could move on from Eli, get rid of his salary, pick Darnold and supplement it with guys in the trenches with the $$ saved from Eli.
And yet, what does that plan hinge on? Darnold actually being good.
And even if he were good, we'd probably get berated for whatever decision we'd make on his second contract......
You really shouldn't cast stones at flapping in the breeze
FatMan in Charlotte : 1/10/2013 8:22 am : link
because of his "long and decorated career". The announcement coming from them was a very good one talking about Gettleman's 15 year run where he has been with 5SB winners.
I haven't talked to anyone directly, but the finalists were Gettleman, Ross and some guy from the CFL who has madet he playoffs 19 years in a row (Popp, maybe?). They chose Gettleman for his experience and ability to work with more than just one NFL team at a high level. I think he edged Ross out on the experience criteria.
With the amount of available cap space upcoming and the seemingly premium draft picks that will likely be in hand once again, I struggle to see how anyone could be confident that the current GM/coach combination is the right answer. I can start to buy the "deserves another year" angle but my mind quickly shuts off that way of thinking. There are too many resources at stake to be concerned with what might be justifiably 'fair' or 'deserved' by the incumbents.
It's a tremendous opportunity to get things right or fuck them up for another 5 years. No more blaming the past or assigning specific mistakes to individuals. Plain and simple, who is best positioned to make the most of the resources in play?
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The Panthers chose Gettleman...
FatMan in Charlotte : 1/10/2013 8:22 am : link
because of his "long and decorated career". The announcement coming from them was a very good one talking about Gettleman's 15 year run where he has been with 5SB winners.
I haven't talked to anyone directly, but the finalists were Gettleman, Ross and some guy from the CFL who has madet he playoffs 19 years in a row (Popp, maybe?). They chose Gettleman for his experience and ability to work with more than just one NFL team at a high level. I think he edged Ross out on the experience criteria.
That's one of the reasons I went searching for it. I just wondered what the consensus was when he left. Seemed like it was mostly that it was a loss, and that he was an integral part of our success.
Scientology.
Since you argue with almost everybody, its very difficult to keep all those rants separated so I realize you try to neatly combine them by extrapolating your point over larger populations.
But its not working, unless of course you want to purposely want to come off as ranting...
I find it odd there would be NYG fans who would have a bad thing to say about the guy.
Amen. He played very well with what he was given. Had JR put effort into the OL we'd have at least one more SB.
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You both also sure do seem to be enjoying picking on Darnold, as if that somehow justifies the Barkley pick.
If Darnold turns out to be a below average QB, the Barkley pick is justified.
That's only true if those are the only two options. There was also the option to trade down and get more picks for a team with holes all over the roster, which would have been the smarter move.
Seems odd for a guy you all swear is an utterly brilliant football mind.
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Favorite religion?
Scientology.
Good participation trophy 🏆 for you today, sir
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In comment 14643806 crick n NC said:
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Favorite religion?
Scientology.
Good participation trophy 🏆 for you today, sir
Second answer was going to be Tom Coughlin. Ahem, Saint Tom Coughlin.
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In comment 14643807 Britt in VA said:
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In comment 14643806 crick n NC said:
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Favorite religion?
Scientology.
Good participation trophy 🏆 for you today, sir
Second answer was going to be Tom Coughlin. Ahem, Saint Tom Coughlin.
👍 in my religion we worship Elijah Manning, we see Saint Coughlin as the archangel. To each their own!
Two, that he had plenty left in the tank and he was about to go on a revenge tour and prove everyone wrong. You could not have been more wrong about that.
Hey, don't rule that Eli Manning Revenge Tour! It's right around the corner! I swear!
Why don't you worry about your own stupid comments before you worry about other people?
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;)
Why don't you worry about your own stupid comments before you worry about other people?
Irony, much? Cunty Chris the stalker at it again. Go stalk Greg again or something, weirdo.
Go Terps : 1/2/2019 6:48 pm : link
If you can go that far back for Chicago and call that part of their process, can we go that far back for us too? Because if you do, this was the second worst season we've had since 2003. The terrible seasons we had at the end of Coughlin's tenure...those still didn't get as bad as this one.
It's not a linear thing. You have to control for the fact that this league is set up to prop up bad teams and knock down good teams. There are rebuilding teams that have winning records. Go look at Seattle for an example of that.
If you start 1-7 and end up 5-11, and you didn't have some catastrophic injury or injuries...in today's NFL, you're a really bad team.
Just because we won 2 more games than the explosion year of 2017 doesn't mean we did well. More importantly it doesn't mean we're on the right track.
Dave Gettleman's 2019 Wrap Up Presser - We Made Progress! - ( New Window )
phew
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In comment 14643867 Dave in Hoboken said:
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;)
Why don't you worry about your own stupid comments before you worry about other people?
Irony, much? Cunty Chris the stalker at it again. Go stalk Greg again or something, weirdo.
You're a joke. You're also commenting on interactions I've had with OTHER posters, and I'm the weirdo/stalker?
Do me a favor, scroll back up through this thread and find the Uncle Jun Sopranos gif Terps posted and read the words carefully.
Is this why he mostly ran backwards against Detroit?
Does anyone want to hold an on-call video intervention for me?
You could tell me how my stalking has affected your lives in a negative manner, plus you can hurl all of the insults you want and I have to take it because it's my intervention I can't say doo doo
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was a nice change up from Beckham's sit down with Lil Wayne on Sunday NFL Countdown the other day.
Is this why he mostly ran backwards against Detroit?
Haven't seen the future, don't know.
Yep, the Pro Bowl talent on the 2-4 Browns who has already caused an uproar over a watch and gotten choked out in a game he was mentally taken out of.
29 catches, 400 yards, 1 TD. Seems worth it. Actually all sounds familiar. Still don't miss it.
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In comment 14643874 Chris684 said:
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In comment 14643867 Dave in Hoboken said:
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;)
Why don't you worry about your own stupid comments before you worry about other people?
Irony, much? Cunty Chris the stalker at it again. Go stalk Greg again or something, weirdo.
You're a joke. You're also commenting on interactions I've had with OTHER posters, and I'm the weirdo/stalker?
Do me a favor, scroll back up through this thread and find the Uncle Jun Sopranos gif Terps posted and read the words carefully.
So, no comeback then? No surprise there.
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In comment 14643879 Dave in Hoboken said:
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In comment 14643874 Chris684 said:
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In comment 14643867 Dave in Hoboken said:
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;)
Why don't you worry about your own stupid comments before you worry about other people?
Irony, much? Cunty Chris the stalker at it again. Go stalk Greg again or something, weirdo.
You're a joke. You're also commenting on interactions I've had with OTHER posters, and I'm the weirdo/stalker?
Do me a favor, scroll back up through this thread and find the Uncle Jun Sopranos gif Terps posted and read the words carefully.
So, no comeback then? No surprise there.
There's nothing to come back from. If I cared to, I could go back to any Eli Manning or Odell Beckham thread from the last 1-2 years and expose you as a bumbling idiot, mouth-breather who knows nothing about football.
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The boys like each other and they're not distracted by pro bowl talent.
Yep, the Pro Bowl talent on the 2-4 Browns who has already caused an uproar over a watch and gotten choked out in a game he was mentally taken out of.
29 catches, 400 yards, 1 TD. Seems worth it. Actually all sounds familiar. Still don't miss it.
Still has more yards than any player on our roster, with one less game played.
👍 in my religion we worship Elijah Manning, we see Saint Coughlin as the archangel. To each their own!
It's actually Elisha Nelson Manning IV. Seems strange that a key member of the EFC doesn't know this...
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👍 in my religion we worship Elijah Manning, we see Saint Coughlin as the archangel. To each their own!
It's actually Elisha Nelson Manning IV. Seems strange that a key member of the EFC doesn't know this...
Because its unimportant? I mean after all, many here still cannot spell Belichick correctly and theyre in the BBFC
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👍 in my religion we worship Elijah Manning, we see Saint Coughlin as the archangel. To each their own!
It's actually Elisha Nelson Manning IV. Seems strange that a key member of the EFC doesn't know this...
That's what you think! There are many many things you aren't aware of about The Elijah.
I'm glad there's somebody out there who can take solace in stuff like that. Personally, I'm looking forward to enjoying the games more, not the pre-game shows.
How is this laser focus that we can now achieve now that OBJ is gone working out for us?
Where is the addition by subtraction?
I guess if you are more concerned with interviews and articles than on the field performance you can consider it a win.
But Gettleman even managed to fuck up trading him by paying him first. Gettleman got the job December 2017. He paid Beckham August 2018. Traded him March 2019. $16M in cap money gone. Great job.
Older guys are winning, older guys are losing, younger guys are winning, younger guys are losing.
At the end of the day, Football is still football. Give me a guy that's been around it for a long time and knows the ins and outs. It's not as complicated as the analytics crowd makes it out to be.
Actually, the "analytics crowd" (by which, I assume you mean people who have a solid handle on things like logic and math) is trying to make it less complicated.
But then again, you made the poetic yet ridiculous statement the other day that you can't quantify OL play because it relies too much on camaraderie. Yeah, it's the "analytics crowd" trying to make it complicated.
then who was really distracted?
We don't get to add together their combined 15 wins over the past year and a half.
They're two sides of the same mediocre coin at this point. But yeah, by all means, let's double down on it. Might as well get Mike Sullivan to be HC, too.
But Gettleman even managed to fuck up trading him by paying him first. Gettleman got the job December 2017. He paid Beckham August 2018. Traded him March 2019. $16M in cap money gone. Great job.
Clevelands offensive line is a dumpster fire, Mayfield doesnt have enough time to get the ball to OBJ. OBJ isnt the problem with the Browns no matter how many bitter butt hurt giants fans feel that way.
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Why isn't Coughlin still coaching if he was still so razor-sharp at it? Gene told me he'd have his pick of NFL coaching jobs about 15 minutes after he was let go.
He would have been a hell of a lot better than any garbage we've had in here since. And he might have even made the transition to the next era a little smoother.
Literally not a single NFL team agrees with you.
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Besides being an asshole he wasn't worth the money.
But Gettleman even managed to fuck up trading him by paying him first. Gettleman got the job December 2017. He paid Beckham August 2018. Traded him March 2019. $16M in cap money gone. Great job.
Clevelands offensive line is a dumpster fire, Mayfield doesnt have enough time to get the ball to OBJ. OBJ isnt the problem with the Browns no matter how many bitter butt hurt giants fans feel that way.
Always excuses.
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Besides being an asshole he wasn't worth the money.
But Gettleman even managed to fuck up trading him by paying him first. Gettleman got the job December 2017. He paid Beckham August 2018. Traded him March 2019. $16M in cap money gone. Great job.
Clevelands offensive line is a dumpster fire, Mayfield doesnt have enough time to get the ball to OBJ. OBJ isnt the problem with the Browns no matter how many bitter butt hurt giants fans feel that way.
OBJ is just probably running the wrong routes like he did with Eli...
Was anybody here that hated the Gettleman hire from day one on this thread? Not a callout, just curious as to what changed your mind if so? BBI: Dave Gettleman named Panthers' GM 1/9/13 - ( New Window )
Look at the first few posts in this thread and you'll find your answer.
I've said this repeatedly - it's not Gettleman that I have a problem with. On his own, I think he'd make a fine exec. It's that the Giants needed a makeover, they needed change in a big way. They barely bothered to get some views during the interview process, limiting themselves to Riddick as the only external candidate.
The Giants keep changing one piece at a time - starting with coordinators, then Coughlin, then Reese, then Eli - and they're not making any progress. They still look and feel just like the same organization they have been for the past 7 years, and the results match.
https://corner.bigblueinteractive.com/index.php?mode=2&thread=562347&show_all=1 - ( New Window )
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In comment 14643897 Chris684 said:
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In comment 14643879 Dave in Hoboken said:
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In comment 14643874 Chris684 said:
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In comment 14643867 Dave in Hoboken said:
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;)
Why don't you worry about your own stupid comments before you worry about other people?
Irony, much? Cunty Chris the stalker at it again. Go stalk Greg again or something, weirdo.
You're a joke. You're also commenting on interactions I've had with OTHER posters, and I'm the weirdo/stalker?
Do me a favor, scroll back up through this thread and find the Uncle Jun Sopranos gif Terps posted and read the words carefully.
So, no comeback then? No surprise there.
There's nothing to come back from. If I cared to, I could go back to any Eli Manning or Odell Beckham thread from the last 1-2 years and expose you as a bumbling idiot, mouth-breather who knows nothing about football.
You sure about that? At the very least, same could be said about you (and plenty of others here) with how things turned out. Still waiting on that revenge tour, jerkoff.
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In comment 14643645 Greg from LI said:
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Why isn't Coughlin still coaching if he was still so razor-sharp at it? Gene told me he'd have his pick of NFL coaching jobs about 15 minutes after he was let go.
He would have been a hell of a lot better than any garbage we've had in here since. And he might have even made the transition to the next era a little smoother.
Literally not a single NFL team agrees with you.
That's another one. Eli Revenge Tour. TC is going to be a coach again immediately and the teams will be 'lined up' at the chance to hire him.
It's so funny how a certain few like to thump their chest about being right on a football message board, when they've been wrong just as much as anyone else out there.
Hilarious (and utterly fantastic).
But Gettleman even managed to fuck up trading him by paying him first. Gettleman got the job December 2017. He paid Beckham August 2018. Traded him March 2019. $16M in cap money gone. Great job.
That may be at the top of the list why Gettleman should be relieved of his duties. Foolish.
I think we've discussed this before, but it bears repeating. This organization failed OBJ to an extent. I'm not saying he's not responsible for his actions - 100% - but the inability to manage personalities by this group of either old or inexperienced decision makers is poor. If you are going to come out and say "you don't quit on talent", then figure it out. Belichick has had rogue characters like Ocho, Moss, Dillon, etc and managed to fit them quite nicely into the culture. Even Brown, who was only there 10 days, was quiet as a mouse before the civil suite broke and he was let go...
I know everyone likes to compare every situation to WWBBD but I think its a somewhat pointless comparison and argument. He's one in a million and there's a lot that needs to happen before you can emulate what he's been able to accomplish in NE.
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Besides being an asshole he wasn't worth the money.
But Gettleman even managed to fuck up trading him by paying him first. Gettleman got the job December 2017. He paid Beckham August 2018. Traded him March 2019. $16M in cap money gone. Great job.
That may be at the top of the list why Gettleman should be relieved of his duties. Foolish.
I think we've discussed this before, but it bears repeating. This organization failed OBJ to an extent. I'm not saying he's not responsible for his actions - 100% - but the inability to manage personalities by this group of either old or inexperienced decision makers is poor. If you are going to come out and say "you don't quit on talent", then figure it out. Belichick has had rogue characters like Ocho, Moss, Dillon, etc and managed to fit them quite nicely into the culture. Even Brown, who was only there 10 days, was quiet as a mouse before the civil suite broke and he was let go...
Could you imagine how productive OBJ would be if he had been drafted by the Patriots?
Belichick would have reigned him in right away, unlike Coughlin who turned a blind eye trying to save his job.
So True, I'd take Coughlin back in a heartbeat with Gilbride!
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In comment 14643954 Go Terps said:
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Besides being an asshole he wasn't worth the money.
But Gettleman even managed to fuck up trading him by paying him first. Gettleman got the job December 2017. He paid Beckham August 2018. Traded him March 2019. $16M in cap money gone. Great job.
That may be at the top of the list why Gettleman should be relieved of his duties. Foolish.
I think we've discussed this before, but it bears repeating. This organization failed OBJ to an extent. I'm not saying he's not responsible for his actions - 100% - but the inability to manage personalities by this group of either old or inexperienced decision makers is poor. If you are going to come out and say "you don't quit on talent", then figure it out. Belichick has had rogue characters like Ocho, Moss, Dillon, etc and managed to fit them quite nicely into the culture. Even Brown, who was only there 10 days, was quiet as a mouse before the civil suite broke and he was let go...
Could you imagine how productive OBJ would be if he had been drafted by the Patriots?
Belichick would have reigned him in right away, unlike Coughlin who turned a blind eye trying to save his job.
yep. but this actually illustrates disfunction with the organization, not just Tom. the fact that Tom felt he needed to save his job and let OBJ act like a jackass in that Panthers game shows the entire org was disfunctional (IMO)
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was a nice change up from Beckham's sit down with Lil Wayne on Sunday NFL Countdown the other day.
Is this why he mostly ran backwards against Detroit?
LOL. In Sander's prime, my mother in law asked if I'd take him on the Giants. I said "no way. too many negative runs" I still feel the same today.
I hope Barkley's negative runs last week were an aberration. i hate seeing the juking for a loss.
And he is trying to put it all on himself to change the tide...
Just let them roll with it....
WTF?
We've disagreed on some of the details but the arc take of we could probably do worse might be the most salient.
Just a clusterfuck from the moment it happened. People that get fired from jobs for basically being a dick and have the increasing trail of people that have issues with them are the last people that should be talking about culture. Yet here we are.
Year 3 of the 20 year rebuild. I can't wait to hear all the same people sell me on Abrams in a few years, going to be so much fun!
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When you read this, then you realize that AFTER this thread he took a 15-1 Panthers team to the Superbowl, it makes you wonder why the guy was such an awful hire from a fan's perspective.
Was anybody here that hated the Gettleman hire from day one on this thread? Not a callout, just curious as to what changed your mind if so? BBI: Dave Gettleman named Panthers' GM 1/9/13 - ( New Window )
Look at the first few posts in this thread and you'll find your answer.
I've said this repeatedly - it's not Gettleman that I have a problem with. On his own, I think he'd make a fine exec. It's that the Giants needed a makeover, they needed change in a big way. They barely bothered to get some views during the interview process, limiting themselves to Riddick as the only external candidate.
The Giants keep changing one piece at a time - starting with coordinators, then Coughlin, then Reese, then Eli - and they're not making any progress. They still look and feel just like the same organization they have been for the past 7 years, and the results match. https://corner.bigblueinteractive.com/index.php?mode=2&thread=562347&show_all=1 - ( New Window )
God I read my post from this thread just now. Sad then. Sad now. What a sorry sad sack of an organization.
NoGainDayne : 12/28/2017 5:55 pm : link
A quote from ESPNs the "great analytics rankings" written in 2015.
"Enter New England, where Dimitroff worked from 2002-2008. From the ESPN analytics article, One NFL analytics professional called the Patriots a "big black hole" when it comes to revealing any secrets But some evidence of the implementation of analytics has escaped the Patriots' gravitational field, and it suggests that the Patriots are one of the most innovative teams in the NFL. For 15 years, Ernie Adams a former Wall Street trader has worked to create cutting edge models for team building and in game play. It goes on to talk about their arbitrage strategies multiplying draft picks and squeezing trade value out of declining veterans."
The Pats have been great at minimizing weaknesses and limiting the downside of individual moves to remain prosperous. There is no doubt in my mind advanced analytics have played a part in this.
The Eagles are sitting atop the NFC right now with one of the more progressive analytics programs.
Now was the time to look forward and it seems we've doubled down on the past. There is such thing as too much loyalty, especially when technology is rapidly advancing.
It would be another thing if I could be optimistic and say "hey, maybe Gettleman is an open minded guy that will combine many opinions and leverage a lot of new ideas." everything I've read about him makes him seem the polar opposite.
Sad day for the future of the Giants in an already sad season.
Right before the Eagles won the super bowl with a backup QB...
Ah the benefits of depth via sound asset management.
I'm sure the Pats and Eagles don't regret it...
And before FMiC touts DG's record for starting an analytics department in Carolina. I'm not talking about player health and injury management.
This is what I am talking about:
They are very good at in game analytics which has helped them. That also seems like a much easier thing to figure out than developing a system which helps determining what player to draft.
Too many people have heads made out of granite. A problem that seems to be getting worse over time. Everyone thinks they are the smartest person in the world.
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To learn from one another is directly related to the refusal to even consider what the other is saying as possibly true. This thread would be required reading for the education on how not to give and take information from one another.
Too many people have heads made out of granite. A problem that seems to be getting worse over time. Everyone thinks they are the smartest person in the world.
I struggle at times with thinking I have the answers, I have graduated from granite to marble 🎓 so there is progress.
Typically when I act as if my theory on something is unquestionable while in discussion it usually means that I don't value what the other is saying, my ego or pride is steering my thinking, and or the discussion has turned into a competition which I think plays ac major role in the lack of give and take with conversation. When we compete, we compete to win. Competing to win a discussion and discussing to learn don't typically work together, it's usually one or the other.
They are very good at in game analytics which has helped them. That also seems like a much easier thing to figure out than developing a system which helps determining what player to draft.
This part of the game has to be understood - and there's really only one time that doesn't fall victim to it.
The game is built around parity - it makes sustained winning difficult. Starting with the salary cap and going to the draft, there's a penalty associated with winning. You win a championship, and players expect to be paid - the first penalty. You win at any sustained level, and you draft lower - the second penalty.
And that's without the fact that teams become less hungry over time, what teams do strategically is figured out and becomes less effective, and that the pool of available talent is so small that the margin between teams is pretty thin.
That's why I don't kill the Giants for "screwing" Eli - a theme so many fans seem to get extremely wrong - by not giving him more talent consistently throughout his run. The system was built to prevent them from winning consistently during that period.
And before FMiC touts DG's record for starting an analytics department in Carolina. I'm not talking about player health and injury management.
That isn't all that Gettleman implemented in Carolina, but I won't go down that rabbit hole.
The bigger question is that the Eagles and Pats are held up as these cutting edge analytic minds, with seldom a mention of other teams. I don't know what the implied assumption is for some organizations, but the implied assumption on the giants is that they just aren't using analytics or using them poorly. There's a huge divide between the scenarios that could exist.
and I say "could" because even as they are continually bashed by a select few on BBI regarding analytics - those posters don't really know what is being done. So what do they do? Tout the Pats and Eagles incessantly.
Case in point is not even understanding the scope of what Gettleman implemented in Carolina and really not caring to understand it. So repeating a falsehood is better.....
Build strong offensive and defensive lines. You do that, and a lot of things fall into place.
Anecdotally, I have and currently run a pretty big program that works on similar problems in Manhattan. Again -- I've never seen a white paper, use case, journal article, news article, customer reference, or logo in a pitch from any of the firms, agencies, or even staffing agencies that do this work.
Either the Giants really aren't doing that much, they aren't listening to it, or what they are doing sucks.
Data in sports is one of the sexier problems to solve out there -- if someone was crushing it not only would I hear about it, everyone would.
The Giants data science and engineering team might be showing up, but they are getting their ass kicked. Sound like any other part of the organization?
Anecdotally, I have and currently run a pretty big program that works on similar problems in Manhattan. Again -- I've never seen a white paper, use case, journal article, news article, customer reference, or logo in a pitch from any of the firms, agencies, or even staffing agencies that do this work.
Either the Giants really aren't doing that much, they aren't listening to it, or what they are doing sucks.
Data in sports is one of the sexier problems to solve out there -- if someone was crushing it not only would I hear about it, everyone would.
The Giants data science and engineering team might be showing up, but they are getting their ass kicked. Sound like any other part of the organization?
They should really crowdsource the data and have competitions to find weaknesses in teams on a week to week basis.
The biggest problem with any analytics is that if you just have lets say your own team of data scientists, then you are just getting one view point on the data.
Crowdsourcing gets you different view points of fall the data.
It would be simple as just giving the public the all 22 tape and the correlating excel spreadsheet and have at it.
I'd love to understand the science behind their resource allocation models.
They have the 3rd highest dead money in the league (fine because much of it was sold for draft picks or cheaper players) -- but then you have 42% of available personnel resources allocated to Manning, Solder, Ogletree, and Jenkins.
You spend 23M on a QB it was clear as day was shot. You spend 15M on a CB who statistically had a worse year than RW Webb last year. You re-do an aging, extremely expensive, and mediocre tackle's deal, and kick that expense into the future because you can't cover your operating forecasts.
Forget grading and probabilities -- the Giants need to start with resource allocation and not being idiots.
42% of available personnel resources allocated to Manning, Solder, Ogletree, and Jenkins.
You spend 23M on a QB it was clear as day was shot. You spend 15M on a CB who statistically had a worse year than RW Webb last year. You re-do an aging, extremely expensive, and mediocre tackle's deal, and kick that expense into the future because you can't cover your operating forecasts.
Good post and well put as to the material issues with the team.
Its not really about challenging a PI call at the end of the first half...
Obviously it's about soccer, but man what they do is EXACTLY what the Giants need, just in a different sport. Along the services they provide is manager recruitment based on a goal statement provided by the club owner/manager - i.e. "we're a limited budget club aspiring to play a solid defensive style and hoping to punch above our weight in our division - provide us with a list of manager candidates that could meet that criteria".
It's an interesting listen, and I have to think there are some services that perform similar work in the NFL world.
Anyone think this current clown show at Jints Central have this?
Let's face it. If anyone could use something like this, it's Shurmur...
Anyone think this current clown show at Jints Central have this?
Let's face it. If anyone could use something like this, it's Shurmur...
There's no way. Just in the past two games we can count at least 4 egregious clock and down management errors. Not only were they errors; they were inconsistent errors - which would indicate a lack of even a bad methodology.
Shurmur is winging it in real time.
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linked to an excellent article last week about how the Colts have two "game situation analysts" - my phrase - live at every game. They monitor the game just like any other coach. And they have instant access to Reich if he needs them to offer advice about game situations. Reich doesn't always use their recommendations, but he says he finds their input very important in how he manages the game.
Anyone think this current clown show at Jints Central have this?
Let's face it. If anyone could use something like this, it's Shurmur...
There's no way. Just in the past two games we can count at least 4 egregious clock and down management errors. Not only were they errors; they were inconsistent errors - which would indicate a lack of even a bad methodology.
Shurmur is winging it in real time.
This is the real problem -- inconsistency.
On the resource front you've got a culling of bad contracts in exchange for dead money and draft picks. You've got an emphasis on drafting for the secondary. Great value oriented moves.
Then you've got drafting a RB at #2, keeping an empty 38 year old bag at QB, a statistically bad corner as the 4th most expensive at his position in the league, and signing a 30+ league average LT to a record contract.
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I'm sure the Pats and Eagles don't regret it...
And before FMiC touts DG's record for starting an analytics department in Carolina. I'm not talking about player health and injury management.
That isn't all that Gettleman implemented in Carolina, but I won't go down that rabbit hole.
The bigger question is that the Eagles and Pats are held up as these cutting edge analytic minds, with seldom a mention of other teams. I don't know what the implied assumption is for some organizations, but the implied assumption on the giants is that they just aren't using analytics or using them poorly. There's a huge divide between the scenarios that could exist.
and I say "could" because even as they are continually bashed by a select few on BBI regarding analytics - those posters don't really know what is being done. So what do they do? Tout the Pats and Eagles incessantly.
Case in point is not even understanding the scope of what Gettleman implemented in Carolina and really not caring to understand it. So repeating a falsehood is better.....
As christian pointed out, and I have in the past as well. To those of us who work in the industry if there was significant work being done by the Giants in this area, it would leave a footprint. I think I have been crystal clear on this and what constitutes a real analytics department.
I know that I have seen footprints from the Pats, Eagles, Jags, Browns, Chiefs, Saints and recently the Rams. There were a few other teams as well, perhaps 10 in total to a greater or lesser degree.
The Giants don't have footprint.
That's not to say they are doing nothing at all. We know from articles that they are using analytics for player health, and recently for some game management (although it seems selective and as such it doesn't work and leads to some really goofy stuff).
What these other teams are doing that the Giants (and the Panthers for that matter) are not doing is this
Let me know when this happens... Otherwise, I'm not interested in the Giant's "Analytics" department.
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In comment 14644803 bw in dc said:
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linked to an excellent article last week about how the Colts have two "game situation analysts" - my phrase - live at every game. They monitor the game just like any other coach. And they have instant access to Reich if he needs them to offer advice about game situations. Reich doesn't always use their recommendations, but he says he finds their input very important in how he manages the game.
Anyone think this current clown show at Jints Central have this?
Let's face it. If anyone could use something like this, it's Shurmur...
There's no way. Just in the past two games we can count at least 4 egregious clock and down management errors. Not only were they errors; they were inconsistent errors - which would indicate a lack of even a bad methodology.
Shurmur is winging it in real time.
This is the real problem -- inconsistency.
On the resource front you've got a culling of bad contracts in exchange for dead money and draft picks. You've got an emphasis on drafting for the secondary. Great value oriented moves.
Then you've got drafting a RB at #2, keeping an empty 38 year old bag at QB, a statistically bad corner as the 4th most expensive at his position in the league, and signing a 30+ league average LT to a record contract.
I agree with your inconsistency assessment.
But if the team is inconsistent about these things then they are not really using analytics. What they are really doing is whatever they hell they want. When their move coincides with analytics they say, see we are using them too. When the move doesn't coincide its analytics shmanalytics...
And the data of coverage being "more effective" than a pass rush is a classic misuse of analytics... Yes, there is a greater correlation between good coverage and wins than a good pass rush and wins. BUT, teams that make the conference championship generally have BOTH... One without the other is insufficient.
As you know, you have to build a system, follow the recommendations, and constantly adjust and grow. It's counter productive to only make data driven decisions in some scenarios. It's just going to create a mess and cast doubts.
I genuinely don't believe a value-based allocation methodology is being employed. I look at that the evidence and I don't believe it.
I think the clearest way to put it is this. The Giants are trying to stab at work that requires very advanced math without someone in the building that shows they grasp how to apply even more simple mathematical frameworks with any kind of consistency. I think that's been clear as day to those with strong math abilities for a while.
And again, that's just results on the field and some clear asset management decisions not grounded in strong mathematical concepts.
It's like we keep seeing people die in surgery and people want to point out like hey! We have a surgeon! Look at them doing surgery! It's a surgeon!
Training, qualifications, experience. They matter.
Then you've got drafting a RB at #2, keeping an empty 38 year old bag at QB, a statistically bad corner as the 4th most expensive at his position in the league, and signing a 30+ league average LT to a record contract.
In a nutshell, that sums up EXACTLY why Gettleman should be on the same patch of thin ice as Shurmur.
And these aren't moves that had to be made to correct Reese blunders. A common refrain I'm getting tired of reading...
The easiest and best indicator the Giants don't have the structural leadership to enforce a data driven culture is investment.
The Giants have 40%+ of their resources wrapped up 4 in bad contracts. If the Giants have a team of folks working on analytical investment -- imagine how excited they must be to see the fruits of their labor.
And the Giants are shedding a great deal of their dead cap next season and will be well positioned with the cap. Perhaps some of their recent moves have been made with that goal in mind??
It's nice to look at context around the league
And the Giants are shedding a great deal of their dead cap next season and will be well positioned with the cap. Perhaps some of their recent moves have been made with that goal in mind??
It's nice to look at context around the league
I agree with your last line, especially as it relates to the posters who seem to think we're going to be flush with cap space next season. The reality is, there's a ton of open cap space across the league next year, and the Giants are basically middle of the pack. The reality is that when there's a significant amount of aggregate cap room available league-wide, salaries tend to increase dramatically. Hopefully the Giants are already forecasting this and are prepared with a gameplan that factors for it.
If the FA market plays out like I expect, I hope the Giants sit out the first wave of brand-name UFAs and target the 2nd tier where some value might be found. That's not what I expect them to do, but I'm hoping for it. More than likely, they'll chase 1-2 big names and go back to the same old cycle of stars and scrubs roster construction.
And the Giants are shedding a great deal of their dead cap next season and will be well positioned with the cap. Perhaps some of their recent moves have been made with that goal in mind??
It's nice to look at context around the league
With regard to the cap allocations, wouldn't a more appropriate view be to look at percentage of cap space tied to the actual roster (thereby netting out the dead money)?
The percentage you're referencing is somewhat misleading because it's of the entire salary cap for this season, but if we accept the dead money for this year as a necessary evil (I think it didn't need to be as bad as it is, but not trying to revisit that here), shouldn't we look at the top cap hits as a percentage of the effective cap room available to the team net of dead money?
That's the context in which the Giants chose to keep those contracts for this year, and thus should be the context in which we debate it, right?
And the Giants are shedding a great deal of their dead cap next season and will be well positioned with the cap. Perhaps some of their recent moves have been made with that goal in mind??
It's nice to look at context around the league
You're missing the point. I'm not referring to salary cap potential, I'm talking about resources employed on the roster.
The Giants are spending 153M on their 2019 roster and 62M are allocated to not just their top 4 contracts, but all four of those suck.
The Rams have far less dead money and have more spending potential. Their top 4 contracts don't include a dude who got benched.
The Jags? Well Coughlin fucked their roster. We can agree there.
And the Giants are shedding a great deal of their dead cap next season and will be well positioned with the cap. Perhaps some of their recent moves have been made with that goal in mind??
It's nice to look at context around the league
Look around the league all you want...our top 4 add very little value and we still will have only 5 wins.
The Giants suck at this and here is a perfect example why...
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cap allocation for the 4 top Giants, (Eli, Jenkins, Solder and Ogletree) is a little under 30%. Meanwhile a team like the Rams referenced using analytics have their top 4 players taking up 31% of the cap. The Jags are at 29%, including Norwell taking up 8% of their cap.
And the Giants are shedding a great deal of their dead cap next season and will be well positioned with the cap. Perhaps some of their recent moves have been made with that goal in mind??
It's nice to look at context around the league
Look around the league all you want...our top 4 add very little value and we still will have only 5 wins.
The Giants suck at this and here is a perfect example why...
Exactly. Allocating resources to players who project to be really productive isn't a bad idea. Manning, Solder, Ogletree, and Jenkins aren't those types of players.
Gettleman appears to makes
value guided moves. Eating dead money to get out of bad contracts or to buy draft picks is smart.
Cluster drafting for the secondary in a passing league is smart. Drafting pocket collapsing lineman over edge rushers is smart. But then there are simple value based decisions he ignores. And that's the dead give away he's either willing to ignore data science or not getting very good guidance.
The last 2 seasons Gettleman has acquired or retained too many players at too high of a cost for reasons other than the player being an efficient, effective, good value, part of building a championship level team.
So let me cherry pick. I'll avoid teams with young, productive QBs like the Chiefs, Ravens, Texans, and Dallas. The Pats, too, because, well, they are the Pats.
Let's start with FMiC's Rams. Danold/9%, Whitworth/9%, Cooks/8%, and Fowler/6%. A great defensive player, a solid veteran LT, a solid WR, and a very good speed rusher. And while the Rams are 4-3. And they are still very much in the hunt.
The Packers. They have 35% of their cap invested in 5 players. Rodgers/13.5%, Bakhtiari/7%, Graham/6.5%, Adams/5.5%, and Bulaga/4%. A great QB, the best pair of Ts in the NFL, a terrific WR, and a solid TE. All key producers.
Seattle has 30% of their cap tied up in 4 players. Wilson/13%, Wagner/8%, Brown/5.5%, and Clowney/4%. A great QB, a great LB, a very solid LT, and a solid DE.
The Saints have 30% of the cap spread over 4 players. Brees/12%, Armstead/8%, Peat/5%, and Jordan/5%. A great QB, a solid LT, a great G, and a great DE.
49ers have 30% of their cap tied to 5 players. JimG/8%, Staley/6%, Ford/6%, Alexander/5%, Sherman/5%. A solid QB, a great LT, a very productive speed rusher, a terrific LB, and an experienced, proven corner.
So as pointed out by others, if high percentage of the cap is over a handful players, it works if those players are good.
And one more time, our top four player eating 30% of the cap are Eli, Jenkins, Solder, and Ogletree. An old QB who no longer starts, a solid corner, a mediocre LT, and a decent LB.
There is no clinical analysis going into the season that determines paying Eli Manning 17M or 11.5M was a good investment.
There is no clinical analysis going into the season that determines paying Jenkins 14.75M was a good investment.
All the smart stuff is going to happen next year. Just like last year all the smart stuff was going to happen this year. Sure.
In a system with finite resources, and a resource savings mechanism, all bad money spent is inefficient.
Let's put 12% of our cap at risk with a 38 year old QB on the demise because DG thought that was the best way to outsmart the league.
Now that is a GM operating at the highest level...
And the Giants are shedding a great deal of their dead cap next season and will be well positioned with the cap. Perhaps some of their recent moves have been made with that goal in mind??
It's nice to look at context around the league
Others have already blown this argument up. In short that paying a lot to a handful of players that are major contributors to wins is not a bad, in fact it's good.
To think that you even tried to float this as something that supports your side of this debate is completely mind boggling. In no way shape or form is the allocation of contracts to the top 4 on the Giants even remotely support good data science or even good management, it strongly argues the opposite. I mean we are talking about a 38 year old Backup QB, a 32 year old sub-par LT, a mediocre at best middle LB, and a 30 year old CB whose play is erratic based on his mood. Not to mention that OBJ consumes 16M against the cap which ranks him as #2 and he doesn't even play for the team anymore. DG is directly responsible for3 of these contracts, and signed off on maintaining the other 2.
To say that this is gross cap mismanagement is the understatement of the year. It is catastrophically bad cap management and directly attributable to the current state of the team.
To even float this as something that supports your side of this debate show just how little you understand about a data driven approach, team building and objective analysis. You've now lost whatever shred of credibility you had left and are clearly just a shill for the teams management.
As you would say, PONDEROUS!
The argument was that he has had some good drafts and thus has the team moving in the right direction. He cleared out a whole bunch of veteran contracts that for various reasons a poor value for the Giants, taking the cap hits this year and supposedly freeing up "tons" of cap space next year.
First, as my post above outlines his overall cap management has bee catastrophically bad. The top 5 costs on this team barely contribute. And going forward the Giants DON't have tons of cap space, they have a league average amount of space next year.
When you consider that, you have to realize that the upcoming class of FA knows how much space is out there. They will hold out for commensurately larger contracts.
Don't look at it as WOW 60M that will go a long way. No look at it as 60M is league average it will go a league average amount of way... It also give management just enough leeway to move the gun from their kneecaps to their foreheads. It's actually quite dangerous and could become a huge albatross if not managed very carefully.
Furthermore, teams have been getting better and better at locking up key contributors before they hit FA. It reminds me what happened with Plan B FA, and June cuts... Initially teams didn't know how to handle them well, and some good players shook loose. After a couple of years Plan B completely dried up, and more recently we never see good players shake loose in post June cuts. Now, the quality of FA that become available is getting worse and worse. This is leading to ridiculous contracts for players like Solder. Nowadays smart teams wait and sign the second tier of FA to team friendly 1 or 2 year contracts. And pick up compensatory draft picks when they are allowed to leave. This is what is meant by the quote above about how the Pats squeeze draft picks out of aging vets.
Big spending if FA is a bad idea...
To be continued...
Above I outline his 2 drafts. The only players that appear to be long term plus players were chosen in the top 34. It should not be surprising that the Giants got decent players from their 5 top 34 picks. The fact they they have had 5 top 34 picks in 2 years speaks to just how bad this has been. But you don't get kudos for not screwing those picks up. That's the basic requirements for the job.
That said, I know this is broadly debated, but I still don't subscribe to the Barkley pick. I don't think it was the right player at the right time for this team. I have provided what I believe was a viable alternative, and many posters even those who like the Barkley pick agree that my proposed draft would put the Giants in a better position now. Yes it involved trading down, and yes I realize that trading down is easier said than done. However this GM didn't even try. If he had seriously tried and not been able to pull it off, I could give him a pass. But to suggest that he gave it serious consideration is disingenuous at best.
The rest of his picks beyond pick 34 he has gotten what appears to be average value.
Taken as a whole I don't think you can say that his drafts have been any better than average so far. If Jones becomes a star, he might deserve a slightly higher grade, but as of now its really just average.
So average drafts taken together with catastrophically bad cap management and FA signings have moved me to the point of agreeing with Terps. I think I have seen enough of both PS and DG to decide that neither deserves more time.
I am not keen on constantly changing the HC and GM, that is what bad teams do. But bad teams are also terrible at self evaluation. Terps is right, they need to go outside the org (and the Fiants family... EA is not going outside the org) get some objective analysis of the team, the management and get guidance on how to take the next steps and get them right.
Round 1
Barkley, Jones, Lawrence, Baker
This gets a pass for now. It all really depends on Jones. And it is the first round and the GIants have been picking high. Getting round 1 right is table stakes.
Round 2
Hernandez
Pass for now, but Hernandez seems to have hit a wall and stopped progressing. Round 2 is also table stakes.
Round 3
Hill, Carter, Ximines, Beal
Meh
Carter has flashed but looks a bit stiff. He has a role but nothing special. Same for Hill. Ximines mostly looks overwhelmed at this point, and we know nothing about Beal. No impact players here, maybe some starters. Call it average for the 3rd round.
Round 4
Lauletta, Love
Lauletta was a waste, we haven't really seen anything from Love yet. So far, this lacks value.
Round 5
McIntosh, Connolly, D. Slayton
Slayton looks to be the best of the bunch so far. Connolly's injury doesn't bode well for an under sized guy that relied on athleticism. McIntosh, not much to say. Overall he made some good picks here, even if none project to be anything more than marginal starters.
Rounds 6 & 7
Ballentine, Asafo-Adjei, C. Slayton
Big George is gone, C. Slayton is on the PS, but didn't show that much. Ballentine may be a player, but we don't really know yet. Overall, nothing to see here.
So bottom line, beyond the second round, the best you can say is that his picks look average for the round. Nothing really special jumps out there.
So have his drafts really been that good? Or has he just managed to not totally screw them up like Reese did?
Does this level of drafting really qualify him as something special that deserves more time considering his blunders in choosing a HC, FA signings and mismanagement of Beckham?
Is the team really moving in the right direction fast enough to be anything more than mediocre?
1) The real issue with Elis 2019 compensation isnt the roster bonus due in March. I wouldnt have paid him it, but it was defensible. The mistake was not trading or releasing Eli over the summer.
2) OBJs 2018 contract probably led to the Giants trading cap space for picks, as we ate the remaining signing bonus, making him a relatively cheap employee for the Browns. This position needs to be evaluated as it involves a judgement call about a trade market that was in flux due to the cheap trade cost of Antonio Brown. But lets be fair here and allow that Gettleman may have in this instance got value for the cap space.
3) The cap space mismanagement Christianne bw and McL have been criticizing doesnt require data science to see the mistake. Its far more basic management, traditional management you know, where you get what you pay for. The data science criticism, while valid, is a red herring. This looks more like plain old management blundering. Weve all seen things like it at our workplaces. All NFL GMs make mistakes, but there A LOT of them here. And the frequent screwing up permeates the coaching, too. And the ownership in its strategic decisions since Gilbride was let go.
This has convinced me that the Giants record cant be attributed to a few bad actors.
We are seeing a record that is a direct result of underperformance up and down the organization. This franchise is completely lost.
Don't look at it as WOW 60M that will go a long way. No look at it as 60M is league average it will go a league average amount of way... It also give management just enough leeway to move the gun from their kneecaps to their foreheads. It's actually quite dangerous and could become a huge albatross if not managed very carefully.
Man, you sure had a lot to say but nicely done McL.
I really liked this nugget, it made me ponder a bit over my first cup of coffee...
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Don't look at it as WOW 60M that will go a long way. No look at it as 60M is league average it will go a league average amount of way... It also give management just enough leeway to move the gun from their kneecaps to their foreheads. It's actually quite dangerous and could become a huge albatross if not managed very carefully.
Man, you sure had a lot to say but nicely done McL.
I really liked this nugget, it made me ponder a bit over my first cup of coffee...
According to overthecap the giants are tenth in the league for cap space for 2020. Tenth isn't average, but seems to be a stretch of the truth to make a point.
As he mentioned elsewhere, with so much cap space around that will mean more teams will re-sign their own offering less chances to teams like the Giants who had to infuse new/different talent.
As he mentioned elsewhere, with so much cap space around that will mean more teams will re-sign their own offering less chances to teams like the Giants who had to infuse new/different talent.
We'll see what happens.
As for his information, these threads people get dug in and will often stretch facts to fit their pov, happens on both sides. I think if someone opposite of mcl was offering not so true facts he would call them on it.
Otc - ( New Window )
smenatics...and his point is still valid to me
I believe they have around 5mil more than leave average.
:-)
Even after they extend Dak, we wont have a big edge on them.
Another pet peeve is being impressed with being 10 out of 32. Thats the fat part of the bell curve. 10th best WR, thats pretty good. 10th best QB or Def? That means you are average.
Not trying to be a dick to you crick, just something that has always bothered me.
Agree, I don't think you could imagine that...
As for the top ten? I understand what you are saying, I am guilty of using top ten as a positive even if in reality it's closer to average.
Another pet peeve is being impressed with being 10 out of 32. Thats the fat part of the bell curve. 10th best WR, thats pretty good. 10th best QB or Def? That means you are average.
Not trying to be a dick to you crick, just something that has always bothered me.
You want to impress me? Be in the Top 10 AND have a winning record...
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That if a post about Gettleman was made in a positive manner with facts being semantically off there wouldn't be correcting of those stretched facts.
Agree, I don't think you could imagine that...
So there isn't any truth at all in your opinion to what I said? None?
But the point is the side opposing won't just see it as semantics. There isn't any consistency. Point is no one is willing to give anything. It's only ok if it supports the person's pov, that doesn't seem like honest conversation to me.
Then I misinterpreted, my mistake.
👍
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That if a post about Gettleman was made in a positive manner with facts being semantically off there wouldn't be correcting of those stretched facts.
Yeah, it's the goalposts moving, not you having a skewed POV rooted in loyalty over logic.
I'm still laughing about Gettleman and Coughlin being a great 1-2 punch when the two of them can't seem to escape the top 10 of the draft. And Coughlin would be a lot better than the coaches we've brought in, yet there isn't a single NFL team that wants him to coach for them.
Yeah, the goalposts are sure moving.
As for the top ten? I understand what you are saying, I am guilty of using top ten as a positive even if in reality it's closer to average.
I think you're missing the point. First of all, they're really not in that good of shape cap wise - good shape, at least to me, suggests some sort of advantageous position relative to the league - the Giants do not have any material advantage over the competition in terms of cap space. And further, the Giants continue to be mediocre at cap management. That's the biggest issue.
Anyone who trusts this group to not fuck up the cap with the newfound cap space the same way the old regime fucked it up in 2016 just isn't paying attention. Contract construction remains the same as before. Too much money tied to in-year bonuses that don't offer any cap advantage. Too much money tied to JAG players. 2nd years attached to player contracts that end up getting released instead of hitting free agency to garner compensatory picks.
It's the same crappy approach, and the same shitty cap "guru" leading the way. If the Giants somehow manage to exercise some restraint in free agency next year and stick to 2nd tier guys on prove it contracts so they can use placeholders to accumulate picks instead of taking on dead money to do it, I'll gladly eat my words. But I suspect I won't need to.
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The giants are in good shape cap wise, but it's being described as average. Perhaps I am misinterpreting the facts. And not that average should be a bad thing cap wise, but in this thread average seems to be used as a negative against fans who want to celebrate cap space. Personally, as I have said before, I feel these types of conversations are nothing more than competitions instead of any give and take of relevant factual information.
As for the top ten? I understand what you are saying, I am guilty of using top ten as a positive even if in reality it's closer to average.
I think you're missing the point. First of all, they're really not in that good of shape cap wise - good shape, at least to me, suggests some sort of advantageous position relative to the league - the Giants do not have any material advantage over the competition in terms of cap space. And further, the Giants continue to be mediocre at cap management. That's the biggest issue.
Anyone who trusts this group to not fuck up the cap with the newfound cap space the same way the old regime fucked it up in 2016 just isn't paying attention. Contract construction remains the same as before. Too much money tied to in-year bonuses that don't offer any cap advantage. Too much money tied to JAG players. 2nd years attached to player contracts that end up getting released instead of hitting free agency to garner compensatory picks.
It's the same crappy approach, and the same shitty cap "guru" leading the way. If the Giants somehow manage to exercise some restraint in free agency next year and stick to 2nd tier guys on prove it contracts so they can use placeholders to accumulate picks instead of taking on dead money to do it, I'll gladly eat my words. But I suspect I won't need to.
I understand what is being said. You're right good is subjective to the individual. I feel the giants are in good cap shape this coming year. I also am not giving up on the possibility that human error may be learned from and corrected. It doesn't mean that it will, but I also don't just want to make up my mind that it for sure won't.
I Also stand by what I said earlier that the giants having average cap space even if true was being used as a negative which I think is a little bizarre.
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In comment 14645355 crick n NC said:
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The giants are in good shape cap wise, but it's being described as average. Perhaps I am misinterpreting the facts. And not that average should be a bad thing cap wise, but in this thread average seems to be used as a negative against fans who want to celebrate cap space. Personally, as I have said before, I feel these types of conversations are nothing more than competitions instead of any give and take of relevant factual information.
As for the top ten? I understand what you are saying, I am guilty of using top ten as a positive even if in reality it's closer to average.
I think you're missing the point. First of all, they're really not in that good of shape cap wise - good shape, at least to me, suggests some sort of advantageous position relative to the league - the Giants do not have any material advantage over the competition in terms of cap space. And further, the Giants continue to be mediocre at cap management. That's the biggest issue.
Anyone who trusts this group to not fuck up the cap with the newfound cap space the same way the old regime fucked it up in 2016 just isn't paying attention. Contract construction remains the same as before. Too much money tied to in-year bonuses that don't offer any cap advantage. Too much money tied to JAG players. 2nd years attached to player contracts that end up getting released instead of hitting free agency to garner compensatory picks.
It's the same crappy approach, and the same shitty cap "guru" leading the way. If the Giants somehow manage to exercise some restraint in free agency next year and stick to 2nd tier guys on prove it contracts so they can use placeholders to accumulate picks instead of taking on dead money to do it, I'll gladly eat my words. But I suspect I won't need to.
I understand what is being said. You're right good is subjective to the individual. I feel the giants are in good cap shape this coming year. I also am not giving up on the possibility that human error may be learned from and corrected. It doesn't mean that it will, but I also don't just want to make up my mind that it for sure won't.
I Also stand by what I said earlier that the giants having average cap space even if true was being used as a negative which I think is a little bizarre.
It's not being used as a negative, it's being used as context. As a fanbase, we're so used to having such little cap space due to a poorly constructed roster and too much dead money that seeing nearly $60M in cap space feels like a huge amount. But when you contextualize it against the total league landscape, you begin to realize that there's a ton of open cap space this offseason, and that the Giants will be facing rapidly escalating contract values as a result. So many fans act like we're positioned for a free agency windfall, and we're not.
Let's be clear here - Gettleman's free agency moves have sucked because the players he has targeted/signed have sucked, not because he's been hamstrung by cap limitations forcing him to sign shitty players. And whatever cap space limitations he has faced are at least as much his own doing as they are a byproduct of Reese.
Anyone reassuring themselves that the best is yet to come with Gettleman once he finally has some cap room to play with is purely trading in wishes and hopes, not anything rooted in reality.
As in Defender of the Faith...
I don't agree with that totally. It certainly is possible I am being sensitive, but considering .mcl's constant criticism of Gettleman it seems to fit what I am saying. I know Gettleman deserves criticism, but constant criticism is unwarranted in my opinion. Now, maybe he is more balanced than I am remembering. This is how I see it
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If you are being extremely defensive, otherwise its just an accurate description
I don't agree with that totally. It certainly is possible I am being sensitive, but considering .mcl's constant criticism of Gettleman it seems to fit what I am saying. I know Gettleman deserves criticism, but constant criticism is unwarranted in my opinion. Now, maybe he is more balanced than I am remembering. This is how I see it
Criticizing Gettleman is a realistic viewpoint. Defending him on faith alone despite increasingly mounting results to the contrary seems to fall into the unbalanced camp, IMO.
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If you are being extremely defensive, otherwise its just an accurate description
As in Defender of the Faith...
Yep, because I'm being illogical
The Giants project to have around 60M of spending power of a projected 1.5B free dollars - so about 4%.
There's a lot of money on the sidelines this year, and a lot of it is condensed to a few teams.
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In comment 14645475 ron mexico said:
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If you are being extremely defensive, otherwise its just an accurate description
I don't agree with that totally. It certainly is possible I am being sensitive, but considering .mcl's constant criticism of Gettleman it seems to fit what I am saying. I know Gettleman deserves criticism, but constant criticism is unwarranted in my opinion. Now, maybe he is more balanced than I am remembering. This is how I see it
Criticizing Gettleman is a realistic viewpoint. Defending him on faith alone despite increasingly mounting results to the contrary seems to fall into the unbalanced camp, IMO.
I didn't say it wasn't, constant criticism without acknowledging the positive is severely unbalance, just the same as never acknowledging the mistakes and only the positive.
Only mcl can say if his intent with the term average was meant to be a slight.
I'm not sure how anything I have said is illogical
Explain my illogic please. I'll wait
Go ahead...Ill wait.
Go ahead...Ill wait.
Would you mind to outline how I am being illogical. Your claim, please back it up
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write about DGs positives?
Go ahead...Ill wait.
Would you mind to outline how I am being illogical. Your claim, please back it up
I didnt claim it. You posted you were, and I said yes.
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In comment 14645499 Jimmy Googs said:
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write about DGs positives?
Go ahead...Ill wait.
Would you mind to outline how I am being illogical. Your claim, please back it up
I didnt claim it. You posted you were, and I said yes.
I didn't figure you had the evidence
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In comment 14645484 crick n NC said:
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In comment 14645475 ron mexico said:
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If you are being extremely defensive, otherwise its just an accurate description
I don't agree with that totally. It certainly is possible I am being sensitive, but considering .mcl's constant criticism of Gettleman it seems to fit what I am saying. I know Gettleman deserves criticism, but constant criticism is unwarranted in my opinion. Now, maybe he is more balanced than I am remembering. This is how I see it
Criticizing Gettleman is a realistic viewpoint. Defending him on faith alone despite increasingly mounting results to the contrary seems to fall into the unbalanced camp, IMO.
I didn't say it wasn't, constant criticism without acknowledging the positive is severely unbalance, just the same as never acknowledging the mistakes and only the positive.
Only mcl can say if his intent with the term average was meant to be a slight.
I'm not sure how anything I have said is illogical
What exactly are the positives?
Continued cap mismanagement? Disregard for the value of analytics? Shitty free agent signings? Prioritizing what appears to be an ego-driven cleanse of anyone on the roster from the prior regime even if it comes at the expense of the overall talent level of the roster? Showing the same make-a-FA-splash-to-win-the-back-page tendencies as his predecessor?
The positives that everyone seems to point to are the drafts - well I think if we're being honest, picking in the top 6 two years in a row and trading away a handful of players for more picks will help make that part of the grade look a little better than it seems to be translating into wins on the field.
Even without dinging Mr. Air Keyboard for the questionable decision to draft a RB #2 overall with a roster in shambles (meaning that that RB's entire first contract would be spent in rebuild mode), is it unfair to pump the brakes on the hype train for DG's drafting prowess when you consider that some of his ammunition came at the expense of the roster itself?
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write about DGs positives?
Go ahead...Ill wait.
Would you mind to outline how I am being illogical. Your claim, please back it up
Give me a little time as I am at my sons basketball tryouts. Will respond in a bit as to your perspectives noted above. You can tag it illogical or whatever other term makes you feel good about yourself.
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In comment 14645499 Jimmy Googs said:
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write about DGs positives?
Go ahead...Ill wait.
Would you mind to outline how I am being illogical. Your claim, please back it up
Give me a little time as I am at my sons basketball tryouts. Will respond in a bit as to your perspectives noted above. You can tag it illogical or whatever other term makes you feel good about yourself.
"Take it down a notch"
When we get out of the cycle where for every good move by Gettleman is offset by two poor moves, and we actually have a winning record, then we can address this need for balance.
When we get out of the cycle where for every good move by Gettleman is offset by two poor moves, and we actually have a winning record, then we can address this need for balance.
Didnt u tell me to be more patient?
- Have more than 150M on the field
- Add several talented players
- Not add any scholarship players only because they are "stabilizing, good in the locker room, or know the system"
- Not add any players because "they had to" or "what was the alternative"
Whether they have an average not good amount of cap space, Gettleman needs to do something he's not done yet: do a good job acquiring veteran players this offseason.
I think Gettleman has done a good job of getting out of some bad contracts, while I also admit the solder mistake. His drafts have shown signs of adding good foundation building blocks. The giants finally won't be up against the cap next year. Now I'm guessing you'll find my positives to not b be positives at all which makes most of this thread irrelevant and tiring because your view, nor my view is necessarily strong. Chances are we both have some right and some wrong. We're only speaking about what we think, which is why there isn't any reason to hold too close to what we believe considering we're wrong often. We go after each other's throats and snark back and forth to each other which signals a lack of value from what each other is saying.
I will end on this
I think anyone not willing to admit the successes and mistakes aren't being logical.
When we get out of the cycle where for every good move by Gettleman is offset by two poor moves, and we actually have a winning record, then we can address this need for balance.
You don't have to do anything. You didn't read that, you made that up. I'm not sure what is with balanced thinking and waiting to see how things ultimately turn it versus assuming. Different philosophies
- more comically using this one phrase as how he is "hood-winking" the fans of the NY Giants as to the true facts behind the state of the team.
- beating the drum in your posts that the Giants are in good shape or indeed better off than the average team when it comes to the cap when me/others have pointed out the more relevant perspective is to see the Giant's current problems are not due to being cap constrained but moreso on the players it is actually used on.
- pinning your hopes that our aged GM will suddenly recognize and learn from his mistakes, excuse me...human error, and think behavior will be very different next year
- complaining there is not enough balance about takes on DG when there is no known constraint that I am aware of that keeps you, me or others from sharing those on BBI
Is that enough?
- more comically using this one phrase as how he is "hood-winking" the fans of the NY Giants as to the true facts behind the state of the team.
- beating the drum in your posts that the Giants are in good shape or indeed better off than the average team when it comes to the cap when me/others have pointed out the more relevant perspective is to see the Giant's current problems are not due to being cap constrained but moreso on the players it is actually used on.
- pinning your hopes that our aged GM will suddenly recognize and learn from his mistakes, excuse me...human error, and think behavior will be very different next year
- complaining there is not enough balance about takes on DG when there is no known constraint that I am aware of that keeps you, me or others from sharing those on BBI
Is that enough?
I don't find unreasonable that the term average was possibly meant as a critique.
I don't agree with your phrase "beating the drum". I find that inaccurate. I think the giants are in good cap shape next year, not unreasonable
Pinning my hopes that a human learns from mistakes. I wouldn't call it home, it's a reasonable possibility. You and I both the struggle of learning from our mistakes, humility helps. Is Gettleman can't lower himself to see and attempt to fix the mistakes then he isn't fit for the job. This remains to be seen for me. Not unreasonable.
Perhaps I am complaining, I don't like to and try to refrain, but I don't always do what is best. I still don't see how that is unreasonable to express me view on the thinking process. Perhaps I have read people wrong, certainly a possibility. Although the last part of your posters infers that I am telling people what they must and must not do. Absolutely not, I can't tell anyone what to do, I see it as adding my pov. I don't see that as unreasonable.
So here we are again, you say this, I say that. Oh well, thanks for the reply. I certainly will continue to chew on your view on how I have responded on this thread, because even though I feel you are more than likely wrong I have to admit it would be a difficult for me to take advice from you considering how you don't seem open to others advice. But that is a personal feeling that needs to be discounted on my side when reading suggestions from yourself to not bias myself and lose out on possibly learning something. No need to respond if you don't wish to, I've had my fill with this thread and topic really.✌
It was pointed out to you that he generally wasn't and that criticism of cap management and the players it was used on was the far more relevant issue than just relying on the team being in good cap shape.
You then move onto a soap box about being logical and balanced when giving point of views. But of course don't really tell anybody else what to do.
And now its I am likely wrong but you have had your fill and are moving on.
I guess i will conclude with...see ya'
In comment 14645519 crick n NC said:
I think Gettleman has done a good job of getting out of some bad contracts, while I also admit the solder mistake. [quote]
I think Gettleman has had to get out of as many bad contracts that he himself created as he has of those he inherited.
[quote]His drafts have shown signs of adding good foundation building blocks.
I'm not going to give the guy a trophy for picking good players in the top 6 of each round. Even if this represents an unfair standard, so be it, but Giants fans are so battered by the memories of Reese that we're now treating merely not failing as a roaring success.
More than half of the dead money that is hamstringing the Giants this year is due to Gettleman himself. So I'm not going to give him credit for not (yet) sinking next year's roster with dead money yet again.
Well my view is based on what Gettleman has already done, whereas most of his supporters point to what he'll have the chance to do next offseason. I'll stick to what has happened already instead of wishful thinking.
No, I'm pretty clearly talking about things Gettleman has unequivocally done since taking over as GM.
I will end on this
I think anyone not willing to admit the successes and mistakes aren't being logical.
The problem isn't admitting that there have been some successes and missteps. The problem is when people act like the mistakes are no big deal, or that they're not representative of the same systemic failures we had under the previous regime as well. The only thing that appears to have changed from one regime to the next is college scouting actually looking for football players instead of drooling over triangle numbers. That's not enough to call DG a good GM IMO.
You and I just think differently on this and that's ok, it's good actually. I understand where you are coming from even if I don't agree with the direction. You are projecting mistakes ahead because of mistakes that have happened. I get it, I understand. I am choosing to let things play out versus predicting. If me being right about Gettleman was detrimental to my career then I would say odds are in favor of repeating mistakes, but you and I don't agree on what were mistakes and were not. We are far apart on this and I don't really see the point of going further. I respect your POV even if you don't respect mine. All fine.
You and I just think differently on this and that's ok, it's good actually. I understand where you are coming from even if I don't agree with the direction. You are projecting mistakes ahead because of mistakes that have happened. I get it, I understand. I am choosing to let things play out versus predicting. If me being right about Gettleman was detrimental to my career then I would say odds are in favor of repeating mistakes, but you and I don't agree on what were mistakes and were not. We are far apart on this and I don't really see the point of going further. I respect your POV even if you don't respect mine. All fine.
I appreciate where you're coming from and for the record, want to be clear that I respect you and your opinion even though I (clearly) feel strongly about Gettleman (and perhaps even moreso, Abrams) being a liability for this team's future.
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Just to be clear I'm not trying to make the case that Gettleman is a good gm nor a bad one. My whole point really is that I think sometimes on topics like this sides get picked with no real intention of changing minds regardless of the results whether it's only focusing on Gettleman's errors or successes.
You and I just think differently on this and that's ok, it's good actually. I understand where you are coming from even if I don't agree with the direction. You are projecting mistakes ahead because of mistakes that have happened. I get it, I understand. I am choosing to let things play out versus predicting. If me being right about Gettleman was detrimental to my career then I would say odds are in favor of repeating mistakes, but you and I don't agree on what were mistakes and were not. We are far apart on this and I don't really see the point of going further. I respect your POV even if you don't respect mine. All fine.
I appreciate where you're coming from and for the record, want to be clear that I respect you and your opinion even though I (clearly) feel strongly about Gettleman (and perhaps even moreso, Abrams) being a liability for this team's future.
It's cool, thanks for the kind words
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In comment 14645291 .McL. said:
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Don't look at it as WOW 60M that will go a long way. No look at it as 60M is league average it will go a league average amount of way... It also give management just enough leeway to move the gun from their kneecaps to their foreheads. It's actually quite dangerous and could become a huge albatross if not managed very carefully.
Man, you sure had a lot to say but nicely done McL.
I really liked this nugget, it made me ponder a bit over my first cup of coffee...
According to overthecap the giants are tenth in the league for cap space for 2020. Tenth isn't average, but seems to be a stretch of the truth to make a point.
Spotrac is all messed up right now, they have every player counting twice. I'm not sure what's happened to them. But a few weeks ago they had the Giants at #14 with 60 million.
Also the numbers do move a bit over the course of a season as teams make trades, release players, and sign players. But being #14 I considered average.
Also OverTheCap showed the Giants at 65 million before the move with Solder to make 7.5 million of salary bonus. I can see that they adjusted Solder's contract, but their 2020 cap space never changed. Which was why I went to Spotrac in the first place. I have also seen 60M quoted as the Giant's projected cap space from numerous writers. So I am not sure about OTC's numbers at this point. Maybe they are correct and everybody else is wrong...
In any case, even on OTC, there is a top tier of teams that goes from 110+M down to about 10M more than the Giants. The Gieants are at or near the top of the middle tier which spans from the Giants down to about 12 - 14M less than the Giants, and then there is a bottom tier that ranges from about 25M to -5M. Most teams are in that middle tier and are pretty closely clustered.
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In comment 14645311 Jimmy Googs said:
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In comment 14645291 .McL. said:
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Don't look at it as WOW 60M that will go a long way. No look at it as 60M is league average it will go a league average amount of way... It also give management just enough leeway to move the gun from their kneecaps to their foreheads. It's actually quite dangerous and could become a huge albatross if not managed very carefully.
Man, you sure had a lot to say but nicely done McL.
I really liked this nugget, it made me ponder a bit over my first cup of coffee...
According to overthecap the giants are tenth in the league for cap space for 2020. Tenth isn't average, but seems to be a stretch of the truth to make a point.
Spotrac is all messed up right now, they have every player counting twice. I'm not sure what's happened to them. But a few weeks ago they had the Giants at #14 with 60 million.
Also the numbers do move a bit over the course of a season as teams make trades, release players, and sign players. But being #14 I considered average.
Also OverTheCap showed the Giants at 65 million before the move with Solder to make 7.5 million of salary bonus. I can see that they adjusted Solder's contract, but their 2020 cap space never changed. Which was why I went to Spotrac in the first place. I have also seen 60M quoted as the Giant's projected cap space from numerous writers. So I am not sure about OTC's numbers at this point. Maybe they are correct and everybody else is wrong...
In any case, even on OTC, there is a top tier of teams that goes from 110+M down to about 10M more than the Giants. The Gieants are at or near the top of the middle tier which spans from the Giants down to about 12 - 14M less than the Giants, and then there is a bottom tier that ranges from about 25M to -5M. Most teams are in that middle tier and are pretty closely clustered.
Honestly, I didn't think about the numbers being rather fluid or the potential to change with extensions or cuts. I apologize, my mistake.
But, the real takeaway is what JG and GD are saying. I was attempting to put our cap mistakes and cap situation in better context. There is an ongoing narrative that the Giants have a TON of cap space in 2020. Well, that's a false narrative no matter what their exact relative position is. The Dolphins and Colts have a TON of cap space... The Giants have about 60% of them and are in a middle tier clustered with a lot of other teams that have a similar amount of cap space. But in all likelihood, some teams made some moves that during this season that have taken them down a bit, and I haven't been checking it regularly.
If the Giants were team on the edge of being able to seriously compete for a SB and they had this much space, that would put them in an excellent position. But the Giants are not that. The majority of the free cap space coming available is from Manning, Beckham and Vernon coming off the books. So at this point the more accurate statement is that the Giants still have a bottom 20% roster, and slightly more than an average amount of cap space. It still doesn't look like the team is in a position to make a significant leap forward next year.
I never expected the Giants to be good this year. But I was looking for improvement this year and with the team reaching playoff contender status next year. Can anybody honestly say that this team is improved over last year or the year before that. Does anybody believe that the Giants will be serious playoff contenders next year? This year looks like another 11 or 12 losses. Playoff contender would be a massive jump... I'm squinting hard, but I just don't see it. There doesn't seem to be enough improvement fast enough to reach that. To have that expectation with the current management in place seems illogical to me, seems like blind hope.
I gave him praise for purging bad contracts, and until I started looking close, I gave him credit for good drafting. I had been taking a middle road that he should have more time (though I've been done with PS for a while). It's only in the past week or two that I have been reconsidering whether DG should get more time.
Bad enough to have a losing record but to this sense that the season is shot before even Halloween each year is completely disheartening.
So as I drink my first cup of coffee on gameday I ask myself and you fans my repeated question for the last 3 years...
What are we doing?
Bad enough to have a losing record but to this sense that the season is shot before even Halloween each year is completely disheartening.
So as I drink my first cup of coffee on gameday I ask myself and you fans my repeated question for the last 3 years...
What are we doing?
I was hopeful at 2-4.
But when the team with last year s worst record, travels east for a 1:00 game with their rookie head coach and rookie quarterback, and leads 17-0 in the first quarter , when the Giants has 10 days to prepare, it does lend credence to your question.
However, I still look at today s game as a meaningful game unlike many others. I am not confident they can win or even keep it competitive, but I m hoping they will.
We all know how a win picks up a fan base and the team. A win would be good tonic and reason to be hopeful going into the Cowboy game.
Bad enough to have a losing record but to this sense that the season is shot before even Halloween each year is completely disheartening.
So as I drink my first cup of coffee on gameday I ask myself and you fans my repeated question for the last 3 years...
What are we doing?
It's just a perpetual "Groundhog Day" when it comes to NY Giants football
That's what we are doing....
In navigating the draft, now with hindsight of what was available and who's doing what now that they're in the league, Gettleman appears to have knocked it out of the park. While navigating that minefield, he also picked up an all world talent in addition to avoiding potential landmines at QB that could have been taken instead. "Even though he is great, you can't take Saquon Barkley when you have the opportunity to take a QB". He got both.
That's a HUGE positive. HUGE. Don't acknowledge it. Fine. As crick has so poignantly pointed out... That's your choice.
Their offense showed some good things and Stafford looked in command all night as well. They kept getting stuck in the red zone and had some awful penalties that robbed them from winning. Kicked too many FGs instead of touchdowns.
BTW - their kicker Prater was impressive too.
I don't know if our defense can hold down any veteran QB in this league...
Here's the timeline order of the groupthink:
April 2018: You can't take anything but QB at two
May 2018-April 2019: You took Barkley but if you don't find the next QB it's all for not.
May 2019-August 2019: We took the wrong QB
September 2019 through current: Yeah, but.... We should have taken an OL/DL instead of Saquon...
In navigating the draft, now with hindsight of what was available and who's doing what now that they're in the league, Gettleman appears to have knocked it out of the park. While navigating that minefield, he also picked up an all world talent in addition to avoiding potential landmines at QB that could have been taken instead. "Even though he is great, you can't take Saquon Barkley when you have the opportunity to take a QB". He got both.
That's a HUGE positive. HUGE. Don't acknowledge it. Fine. As crick has so poignantly pointed out... That's your choice.
I m beginning To believe Shurmur doesnt know how to use that all world talent to maximize his impact on games.
Doesnt it seem that the Giants give up on the run game rather quickly
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if you go back and look at the past couple years, is who is going to succeed Eli Manning and lead the Giants into the future at QB, the most important position on the field.
In navigating the draft, now with hindsight of what was available and who's doing what now that they're in the league, Gettleman appears to have knocked it out of the park. While navigating that minefield, he also picked up an all world talent in addition to avoiding potential landmines at QB that could have been taken instead. "Even though he is great, you can't take Saquon Barkley when you have the opportunity to take a QB". He got both.
That's a HUGE positive. HUGE. Don't acknowledge it. Fine. As crick has so poignantly pointed out... That's your choice.
I m beginning To believe Shurmur doesnt know how to use that all world talent to maximize his impact on games.
Doesnt it seem that the Giants give up on the run game rather quickly
I agree with that, and that is why my view on Shurmur has soured. Especially with a rookie QB in there.
Here's the timeline order of the groupthink:
April 2018: You can't take anything but QB at two
May 2018-April 2019: You took Barkley but if you don't find the next QB it's all for not.
May 2019-August 2019: We took the wrong QB
September 2019 through current: Yeah, but.... We should have taken an OL/DL instead of Saquon...
As I have mentioned to some of the other defenders on here, it is just flawed and unfair to extrapolate takes on here over some larger group or groupthink. It may be helpful and/or efficient to do so that you don't have to reply with every single poster you debate with, but it doesn't make any more true.
And btw - not sure about the "knock it out of the park" comment yet either. Where are you going with that here on Oct 27?
I'm choosing Jones over all of them.
He's clearly the most NFL ready of all of them from an intangibles point of view.
I don't care what the record or the statistics say. You can look at the guy and see it.
However, it is looking like Shurmur is what he is, a decent to good OC. It's hard to find decent HC's not to mention good He's.
However, it is looking like Shurmur is what he is, a decent to good OC. It's hard to find decent HC's not to mention good He's.
Agreed. Our inability to field a consistent run game given the makeup of our roster is infuriating.
Furthermore because you would pick DJ over those other QBs certainly doesn't mean home run either. Seeing warts on other guys doesn't mean our guy doesn't have his own.
Lastly, you are going to get a lot of feedback on at least one of the QBs in your comparative list...
Furthermore because you would pick DJ over those other QBs certainly doesn't mean home run either. Seeing warts on other guys doesn't mean our guy doesn't have his own.
Lastly, you are going to get a lot of feedback on at least one of the QBs in your comparative list...
Agree with all of that.
Standing by it.
Not totally his fault. The game in Foxboro was a tall task without Barkley, Shepard and Engram... can't fault him for that.
7 picks in the last 4 games is bad, though. He's got to clean that up. Holding the ball too long, forcing it into bad spots... it's rookie stuff, so I'm not going nuts over it, but I'd like to see him bounce back here and play a strong game today.
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home run. And we certainly haven't seen that yet outside of a few quarters in the Tampa game. I totally want DJ to succeed but your nuts to call home run thus far.
Furthermore because you would pick DJ over those other QBs certainly doesn't mean home run either. Seeing warts on other guys doesn't mean our guy doesn't have his own.
Lastly, you are going to get a lot of feedback on at least one of the QBs in your comparative list...
Agree with all of that.
Standing by it.
I do like that about your posts from time to time. You go full-head-of-steam with little to no reservations...
Not totally his fault. The game in Foxboro was a tall task without Barkley, Shepard and Engram... can't fault him for that.
7 picks in the last 4 games is bad, though. He's got to clean that up. Holding the ball too long, forcing it into bad spots... it's rookie stuff, so I'm not going nuts over it, but I'd like to see him bounce back here and play a strong game today.
Agree. I ma completely realistic around wanting him to use 2019 to make mistakes and learning and developing from it.
My early thoughts mirror yours above. In addition, would like to seem him hit his outlets a bit quicker and not only scan the middle of the field. I am also okay if he takes off a bit earlier to get out of that pocket. Lastly, I would like to see a little more heat on that ball.
Maybe so. Others would refer to it "as either brave or stupid, and now we just have to figure out which one".
:-)
Obviously this isn't all good - in some cases, this is how he's getting stripped or throwing INT's because he's not yet found that balance in terms of just knowing when to live to see another down.
Not angry about any of it; I expect him to make some mistakes - I just want to see him learn from them rather than continue to repeat them.
Here's the timeline order of the groupthink:
April 2018: You can't take anything but QB at two
May 2018-April 2019: You took Barkley but if you don't find the next QB it's all for not.
May 2019-August 2019: We took the wrong QB
September 2019 through current: Yeah, but.... We should have taken an OL/DL instead of Saquon...
Come on man, this is lazy. Anytime you mash together a bunch of views you will find hypocrisy and incongruity.
And Daves job is not to beat out a bunch of guys on a message board. Its his job to field a team and coaching staff that can beat other teams on the field. So far he has been lacking in that regard.
I dont think he is incompetent, and do think he has been hamstrung by the Mara bros, but he needs to do a better job regardless.
World Series winning grand slam home run!
That's a hell of a make believe story you've setup to knock down.
Plenty of talking heads, pundits, and fans thought Barkley was a no-brainer and plenty also thought Haskins was a product of OSU and an interpersonal disaster.
Wrapping these discussions in a hyperbolic bow is almost always when they go sideways.
In navigating the draft, now with hindsight of what was available and who's doing what now that they're in the league, Gettleman appears to have knocked it out of the park. While navigating that minefield, he also picked up an all world talent in addition to avoiding potential landmines at QB that could have been taken instead. "Even though he is great, you can't take Saquon Barkley when you have the opportunity to take a QB". He got both.
That's a HUGE positive. HUGE. Don't acknowledge it. Fine. As crick has so poignantly pointed out... That's your choice.
Wake me up when your 10-6 prediction is actually sincere. Until then, enjoy your rose-colored glasses. I appreciate and respect the way you approach your fandom, but I can't just pretend the Giants are flawless and Gettleman has some sort of Midas Touch the way that you seem to.
He also likes to talk out of his ass with trite clichs. Are you going for the full persona or just the conviction?