Some quotes from a scout:
| “Awkward footwork, throwing the ball up, turning the ball over,’’ a college and NFL talent evaluator told The Post. “I can’t believe how the national media goes crazy over Darnold. I can’t see what they’re looking at.’’ |
| “I’m very pleasantly surprised,’’ he said. “He wasn’t accurate as a deep-ball thrower at all at Duke and he’s really thrown some really nice deep-ball passes over the outside shoulders of the receivers. He’s getting better, but getting better doesn’t always translate to wins. |
Link - (
New Window )
As for Daniel, I'm 100% sold already. Everything the Giants do now needs to be about surrounding that kid with talent and support. By the start of Eli's second season, the Giants had already drafted Chris Snee and signed Shaun O'Hara, Kareem McKenzie, and Plaxico Burress. The Giants need that same type of investment for DJ.
Quote:
The problem there is the offensive scheme sucks, and the whole team is a mess. Darnold's best attributes: extending plays, throwing on the run, and making plays off schedule, don't fit with what they're doing. They just really fucked up with the Gase hire. They fell into the "QB whisperer" trap when what they really needed was a program builder. Not all that different from the Giants, actually.
Jones is more polished and better mechanically than Darnold is, and it comes across in his ball placement. Shit, Jones looks like a better pure thrower than Eli.
I'd like to see some more planned QB runs, and/or Jones keeping it on the read option. I think this week was the first time we saw it, if I'm not mistaken.
We saw it in Tampa and then it went bye bye for a month.
We need to get back to it.
Without Saquon (and even Gallman), you can't do read option. For those plays to be effective, you need the edge defenders to crash the ball carrier on the fake. No body was going to overcommit to Hilliman/Penny.
Now, hopefully we'll start to see it a couple times a game. Might loosen the D a bit for SB too.
As for Daniel, I'm 100% sold already. Everything the Giants do now needs to be about surrounding that kid with talent and support. By the start of Eli's second season, the Giants had already drafted Chris Snee and signed Shaun O'Hara, Kareem McKenzie, and Plaxico Burress. The Giants need that same type of investment for DJ.
Trubisky's another young QB with limited college experience that is struggling, though he's certainly much closer to being considered a bust.
This was also one of the big flags with Haskins.
I believe he has thrown for at least 1 TD in each game, yes?
and he has made several eye-catching throws in every game, even the ones where he looked bad overall.
That is good to see and gives me great hope for his future.
Quote:
he has happy feet and is too afraid to step into his throws and take a hit. It's very obvious and NFL DC's have noticed. It is not just the floaters to nobody off his back foot it is also his reluctance to step up into pocket when he has time and complete his throws. He is a mess. DJ is solid in pocket and has taken hit after hit to try to complete a pass. Every week he makes a few plays that impress everybody watching. Barring injury I understand the DG love.
I think it's telling BB didn't send the cover 0 blitzes against DJ8 in a monsoon, when he sends it against other young qbs like Darnold and Mahomes.
I'm still not convinced Mahomes is a great progression QB based on his 0-2 record against the Patriots.
That reality is we have no idea what Jones or Darnold will be, one is game 5 into year 2 and the other is game 7 into year 1. Darnold could rapidly improve and Jones could fall flat onto his face. Maybe it's the other way around. But declaring victory at this point is nothing short of homerism at is finest.
The other funny thing in this thread is blasting any poster who dared questioned the wisdom of taking a running back at number 2, when so many other glaring holes existed within the organization (something that 5 minutes before barkley was drafted was widely accepted on BBI as maybe not the most prudent strategy). Not the least of which was an old qb who struggled to throw the forward pass and led an offense to a blistering bottom 5 finish in the prior two seasons. But how dare anyone suggest taking a potential top qb (whether or not it's worked out that way yet) over a rb to reboot the franchise. And now the tagline is. "well all those posters changed their mind this year and said they wanted a trade down." I distinctly remember many posters advocating for either a trade down or a qb. It was acceptable to be happy with either outcome and still not want a rb at 2. But hey, you can't have it both ways, you could only have said one thing I guess.
Curiously, we had posters who disappeared after the Buffalo game, after spending the summer blasting anyone who suggested the franchise was still stuck in neutral and questioning the wisdom of Eli presence on the roster only to reappear after the Tampa game with long posts about hope and how they always knew it was time for change. Now everyone who suggested taking a qb or a trade down in 2018 is an abhorrent malcontent who should praise all the Giants decision making. However, we are all now watching yet another season over by halloween with one of the very, very few bright spots being some flashes from Jones, while the defense is continuously gashed and the oline gets blown off the ball most plays. If any evidence existed of improvement, I could see excitement, but we are heading towards another 4-12/5-11 season.
Listen, we all like Jones, or most of us do anyway. But we could also use a dose of reality on the current state of the franchise.
That reality is we have no idea what Jones or Darnold will be, one is game 5 into year 2 and the other is game 7 into year 1. Darnold could rapidly improve and Jones could fall flat onto his face. Maybe it's the other way around. But declaring victory at this point is nothing short of homerism at is finest.
The other funny thing in this thread is blasting any poster who dared questioned the wisdom of taking a running back at number 2, when so many other glaring holes existed within the organization (something that 5 minutes before barkley was drafted was widely accepted on BBI as maybe not the most prudent strategy). Not the least of which was an old qb who struggled to throw the forward pass and led an offense to a blistering bottom 5 finish in the prior two seasons. But how dare anyone suggest taking a potential top qb (whether or not it's worked out that way yet) over a rb to reboot the franchise. And now the tagline is. "well all those posters changed their mind this year and said they wanted a trade down." I distinctly remember many posters advocating for either a trade down or a qb. It was acceptable to be happy with either outcome and still not want a rb at 2. But hey, you can't have it both ways, you could only have said one thing I guess.
Curiously, we had posters who disappeared after the Buffalo game, after spending the summer blasting anyone who suggested the franchise was still stuck in neutral and questioning the wisdom of Eli presence on the roster only to reappear after the Tampa game with long posts about hope and how they always knew it was time for change. Now everyone who suggested taking a qb or a trade down in 2018 is an abhorrent malcontent who should praise all the Giants decision making. However, we are all now watching yet another season over by halloween with one of the very, very few bright spots being some flashes from Jones, while the defense is continuously gashed and the oline gets blown off the ball most plays. If any evidence existed of improvement, I could see excitement, but we are heading towards another 4-12/5-11 season.
Listen, we all like Jones, or most of us do anyway. But we could also use a dose of reality on the current state of the franchise.
This reads like a guy that thought all of the things that you mentioned in your post. Nobody knows who is going to be wrong or right yet when it comes to the Giants future, but you had a ton of people SWEARING that the only way to build a team was to draft a QB last year and that no other QB Class would ever come around again where the Giants could find Eli's successor.
Then, the Giants might have found their successor literally a year later, on a guy half the fan base crapped all over. Again, we don't know if Jones' progress will continue, or if he will be better or worse than Baker or Darnold.
That didn't stop any posters last year from predicting the future of this franchise was doomed while killing the Front Office for not having a plan and making declarative statements left and right. It DOES works both ways.
I think Jones can play, but I also think he's at risk of being collateral damage in the next tear down/rebuild that I think is coming in the next couple years.
Here's an interesting thought: if/when Gettleman/Shurmur are shipped out (I'm guessing after we go 5-11 again in 2020), will the incoming regime be selected based on their willingness to move forward with Jones instead of pursuing their own young QB? Further, what if we're in play for Trevor Lawrence?
The only way this team sees a fast turnaround is if we "strike gold" with our draft picks (and I think we mostly have...) and we must have a strong 2020 draft and UFA pickings.
1. LT - few rookies start and flourish but maybe we get lucky?
2. RT - best UFA RT out there ONLY if healthy & worthy of pay?
3. Solder - moves to RT if not and pay cut?
4. FS - Love or a UFA or a #2 but please just no Bethea
We clearly need a LT, RT, Pass Rusher and FS most.
What is being pointed out is that in Year 2, Darnold hasn't progressed and already has had a couple of games where he isn't showing even any flashes. On the flip side, even in losses, Jones is showing flashes, whether it is a pinpoint TD to Ellison or deep shots to Slayton.
There's no victory - but revisionist history, as the lap had already been taken last season by Darnold supporters.
What is being pointed out is that in Year 2, Darnold hasn't progressed and already has had a couple of games where he isn't showing even any flashes. On the flip side, even in losses, Jones is showing flashes, whether it is a pinpoint TD to Ellison or deep shots to Slayton.
There's no victory - but revisionist history, as the lap had already been taken last season by Darnold supporters.
Agreed.
I will say, however, I’ve watched Darnold very closely and he’s lost right now. Mentally and physically. His mechanics, while never textbook, are horrific. The Jets are in dangerous waters with him. I certainly hope he responds. But if not, they are in a serious bind.
I’m sure you know what’s going on here. The SB-was-the-best-pick crowd are very short sighted. They just care that Barkley is good, and not that he was what was best for the team. So DG nailed it in their minds.
It’s like this LW trade. Yes, we got a nice player. But did we really need a 3-4 DE when the DL is actually starting to show some ability in the pass rush and run contain. No. We should have been sellers at this free agency period. But if we wanted to buy, the better position choices were OL, LB, or a better back up RB.
Here we are a year and a half later and most people like our guy better early on and think he can be as good or better while Darnold is bumbling his way through an absolutely disastrous sophomore season that will be remembered as the year he had mono, saw ghosts, threw a fuckload of interceptions, and completely regressed mechanically.
Imagine Sam Darnold doing all of this here. Imagine how many people would be crucifying Dave Gettleman for fucking up the QB and taking the wrong guy.
Most people here wouldn't trade Jones for any of the 2018 QB's. But, if you read some of the commentary here regarding that draft, you'd think we punted on the '83 class here.
We had to listen to it for an entire fucking season. Forgive some of us for pointing out now that snap-judgments aren't always accurate and that sometimes patience is necessary in scenarios like these.
Some of the guys who went absolutely wild over Darnold have softened on that a bit... but there's always a few who won't ever budge. Which is what we got above.
...of an embarrassment than our offensive line. And that's saying something. Practically all assessments about Sam Darnold are pre-mature. No one could succeed behind the Jet's front line, and that includes Daniel Jones.
Lol... yea ok.
Jones is more polished and better mechanically than Darnold is, and it comes across in his ball placement. Shit, Jones looks like a better pure thrower than Eli.
I'd like to see some more planned QB runs, and/or Jones keeping it on the read option. I think this week was the first time we saw it, if I'm not mistaken.
Word for word I agree. I don’t know if the giants are afraid of what’s behind door #2 with the whole running qb thing, maybe they aren’t afraid at all, but they seem to be terrified of letting jones run unless it’s for a game winning score. Shit I’m not asking for jones to be used like Jackson but we should cheat every now n then and design some running plays to keep the O moving.
Can we apply that same standard to the Barkley pick? Not to Barkley himself, but to the decision to pick him? At the end of the season I'm going to start a thread that's a thorough look into the Giants' 2018 & 2019 offensive performance, but for now here's where we stand where it counts - points scored per game:
2018: 23.1 ppg(and this is inflated by a couple big point totals after the season was over at 1-7... Remember those threads?)
2019: 19.8 PPG
Like I said, I'll let the season play out and dig in more thoroughly, but can anyone definitively say after 1.5 seasons that Barkley's presence has made any difference at all? Has Gettleman succeeded to this point in building a team around him (this includes a coaching staff) that has maximized Barkley's tremendous ability?
And when comparing the Darnold v. Barkley road maps, consider also that Darnold plays a position with lower physical attrition, and Barkley has already missed games with a lower leg injury.
As of right now it's fair to say the Darnold pick hasn't worked out as hoped at this early stage. But it's also fair to say it about Barkley, and history tells us Darnold's position peaks later than Barkley's.
You've already made up your mind that Barkley is a terrible pick. Fitting an analysis to meet your bias really isn't doing a whole lot.
Unless you can do a breakdown of where the team would be if they took Darnold or Chubb or Nelson in comparison to Barkley, it really is a bunch of bunk.
Can we apply that same standard to the Barkley pick? Not to Barkley himself, but to the decision to pick him? At the end of the season I'm going to start a thread that's a thorough look into the Giants' 2018 & 2019 offensive performance, but for now here's where we stand where it counts - points scored per game:
2018: 23.1 ppg(and this is inflated by a couple big point totals after the season was over at 1-7... Remember those threads?)
2019: 19.8 PPG
Like I said, I'll let the season play out and dig in more thoroughly, but can anyone definitively say after 1.5 seasons that Barkley's presence has made any difference at all? Has Gettleman succeeded to this point in building a team around him (this includes a coaching staff) that has maximized Barkley's tremendous ability?
And when comparing the Darnold v. Barkley road maps, consider also that Darnold plays a position with lower physical attrition, and Barkley has already missed games with a lower leg injury.
As of right now it's fair to say the Darnold pick hasn't worked out as hoped at this early stage. But it's also fair to say it about Barkley, and history tells us Darnold's position peaks later than Barkley's.
I don’t think it’s fair to use team statistics (PPG) to evaluate one player. When considering the individual, Barkley has been excellent, winning ROY honors. He just has been playing for a team that is rebuilding.
You talk about his injuries, but he came back way earlier than expected from his high ankle injury.
It’s true that the Giants has multiple holes during last years draft, but they chose to focus on RB, and they got a good one, so let’s move forward.
What is that supposed to illustrate?
For example, going with Manning for 2 games and now having the rookie learning on the job. Barkley himself missing 3 games. The current state of the OL. The WR group... lost Coleman right away, Tate was suspended 4 games, Shepard is on his 2nd concussion, Slayton was limited by a hamstring issue early on. Even Zeitler was pretty clearly limited a few weeks ago - and he still might be.
All of these things are going to have an impact on the offenses bottom line independent of Barkley, so when we look back at the year and then just attach the number to Barkley, I'm not sure it will tell us much.
The other issue is that (and I've made this point a few times before), you're probably going to arrive at the same place even if you replace Barkley with the player of your choice from the 2018 draft. Whether it's one of the QB's, Bradley Chubb or some hypothetical trade down that nets us Quinton Nelson (and I hate even entertaining post-draft trade downs in hindsight because it's quite honestly an exercise in futility)
We'd still be sitting here talking about how the coach sucks, how we're destined for another 5 win year, etc. I don't think any of that would change... which is why I think it's unfair to keep placing so much emphasis on that one single draft pick.
I think the difference re: the end of your post is that people are seriously questioning the player himself when it comes to Darnold right now. I don't think that's the issue with Barkley - most people would gladly take him over any other RB in the league and feel good about it - with Barkley, it's more a debate centered around resource allocation. I don't think anyone doubts the ability of the player.
I just don't know if I really believe people who say that they'd be 'okay' with a 5 win season if the personnel was different and we were losing in other ways. Really, a 5 win team is a 5 win team at the end of the day.
I think my biggest concern for NYG right now (aside from the coaches), is how Gettleman approaches FA this spring.
If he approaches it the way you think he will, I will certainly be right there with you criticizing it. I'd like to think he's learned a little something; but he's been around the NFL a long time so that might be wishful thinking.
- keeping Eli at QB (and the expense that came with that - $45M in cap space these two years)
- doubling up at QB in '19 (money on Eli and a #6 on Jones)
- not adding a premium pass rusher prospect in either draft (Chubb in '18 or Allen in '19 {had we resolved QB in '18})
Barkley is a fantastic player - I want to repeat that yet again for the people that think I'm criticizing him. But the decision to draft him (in tandem with keeping Eli when he should have been gone prior to '18) was a major factor in impeding the transition from Reese to whatever we are now, and in combination with the Shurmur hire the main reason '18 and '19 have been complete disasters. And here we are on the precipice of a 10-24ish start to the Gettleman era.
If you don't think that is better than where we are at right now, you are not being honest with yourself..
- keeping Eli at QB (and the expense that came with that - $45M in cap space these two years)
- doubling up at QB in '19 (money on Eli and a #6 on Jones)
- not adding a premium pass rusher prospect in either draft (Chubb in '18 or Allen in '19 {had we resolved QB in '18})
Barkley is a fantastic player - I want to repeat that yet again for the people that think I'm criticizing him. But the decision to draft him (in tandem with keeping Eli when he should have been gone prior to '18) was a major factor in impeding the transition from Reese to whatever we are now, and in combination with the Shurmur hire the main reason '18 and '19 have been complete disasters. And here we are on the precipice of a 10-24ish start to the Gettleman era.
I hear your points. But Eli might still be on the roster had we drafted in 2018. Given his legendary status, the Giants could very well have continued to start him last year. And none of Mayfield/Darnold/Rosen has panned out as expected to date. Yes QB Josh Allen and Lamar Jackson are playing well, but that’s hindsight. Yes it’s true we didn’t get a pass rusher.
Seems like the front office can’t win, unless they win a super bowl. Had they moved on from Eli, they would have gotten criticized for being impersonal. Have they stuck with him, well we all know that outcome. That’s just the nature of the beast I guess.
But, there were other groups that wanted different specific players and/or a trade down.
Yes, a lot more people are vocal now about we shoulda traded down, but a lot of people were calling for a trade down pre draft.
- keeping Eli at QB (and the expense that came with that - $45M in cap space these two years)
- doubling up at QB in '19 (money on Eli and a #6 on Jones)
- not adding a premium pass rusher prospect in either draft (Chubb in '18 or Allen in '19 {had we resolved QB in '18})
Barkley is a fantastic player - I want to repeat that yet again for the people that think I'm criticizing him. But the decision to draft him (in tandem with keeping Eli when he should have been gone prior to '18) was a major factor in impeding the transition from Reese to whatever we are now, and in combination with the Shurmur hire the main reason '18 and '19 have been complete disasters. And here we are on the precipice of a 10-24ish start to the Gettleman era.
Those decisions on Manning should be viewed independently, though - and if we want to call them poor cap decisions, that's certainly fair. I won't argue that.
But - we still could have drafted Barkley without it needing to result in having Eli still here this year. Not cutting him after '17 didn't strike me as particularly awful; but they probably should have done it this year.
That said, several posters have correctly pointed out that the timeline complicated things a bit with the QB's. It's not revisionist history because many people were campaigning for NYG to do that at the time. But, I think the team was genuinely worried about getting caught with their tails between their legs if the draft didn't play out the way they wanted and viewed Eli as insurance that they wanted in place.
There's no way we were ever going to go with Kyle Lauletta as the starter. There are bad roster decisions, and unacceptable ones... the Giants really could not have started that guy. He would have been the worst starter in the league and it probably wouldn't have been particularly close.
I wanted Josh Allen @ 6 - I thought he was a run to the podium pick when he fell to us and I said that at the time. I also believed Daniel Jones could have been had @ 17... and after the smoke cleared, that became much less certain. The other problem here is we're again revising history and it means you have to take Dexter Lawrence (and DeAndre Baker) off the team. Is that swap worth it? I don't know.
I wanted to stack Barkley and Lamar Jackson in 2018. That was the plan I harped on a bunch of times and wanted to see here. An RPO heavy team with Jackson/Barkley and have them stack the shit out of the OL and completely dominate people on the ground and kill them with PA.
Barkley has been drafted, we can't go back and change that now. But, I believe a lot of the things I wanted to see with Jackson/Barkley can be done with Jones. And Jones is a better passer than Jackson.
So, what the Giants need to prioritize is building an offense that maximizes the RB. Right now, we have the wrong coach and the wrong offensive line. If Gettleman can actually FIX the offensive line... not just have it look better than pure garbage here and there - fix it... there really should be a point before Barkley/Jones' rookie deals are up where we can actually win football games. But, that's up to the higher ups to execute.
But, there were other groups that wanted different specific players and/or a trade down.
Yes, a lot more people are vocal now about we shoulda traded down, but a lot of people were calling for a trade down pre draft.
People call for trade downs every single year here. It's as tried and true as the sun rising in the East and setting in the West.
It takes two to tango. Sometimes those trade downs aren't always available or aren't advantageous. It's easy to keep saying the Giants should trade down... people do it every season.
Where you run into trouble is when played show signs of almost being good enough and you're faced with a choice of cutting bait or holding on and there's no good evidence either way.
And how much of it was inherited vs caused by them? Yes it’s been a bad time for the team. But maybe it’s not an easy fix like we would have hoped. Would Lamar Jackson have been able to deal with the New York media? Who knows?
- financial out in his contract
- new GM
- new head coach
- QB class with four first rounders
The only sticking point was sentimentality and nostalgia. So we kept him around, went 5-13, and mercifully pulled the plug. All could and should have been able with just a little bit of foresight.
The results since speak for themselves.
The problem is that I don't think the owner did.
There was a sentimentality factor indeed - and it came from the man at the very top of the food chain. He wanted to give Eli the 'proper' sendoff after what happened in '17 and we tried to force a farewell tour onto a crappy football team that was going to be doing a lot of losing.
Decisions shouldn't be made that way.
It was a year with a lot of coveted players though, so I would think it was a good year for potentially trading down.
Ultimately, I was fine with Barkley - I still am. But, if you're not even listening to offers, you're only doing yourself a disservice. All it takes is one team to blow you away with an offer you can't refuse. I certainly would have felt a little better about the pick if Gettleman listened to offers and ultimately decided that Barkley was still his best bet. I'd rather have Barkley knowing that we explored all avenues before walking to the podium... I'm pretty sure Gettleman had the pick in within 10 seconds.
With that said, even if Jones is better than Darnold, that in no way excuses the Barkley pick. With massive holes all over the field, squandering that asset on a running back will always be inexcusable. I don’t know why people insist on starting these threads constantly trying to recast this regime’s blundering, clueless personnel decisions as prescient in retrospect. Let’s just admit they have no idea what they’re doing and just hope they nonetheless lucked out with Jones. That’s all we got at this point (we’ll, that and Mr. Generational’s sick cuts in the 4th quarter down 20 and 97 Madden rating).
Baltimore traded up in front of the Giants to nab Jackson. Where there's smoke there's fire? Could have been as big of a shock as the DJ8 pick this year.
- keeping Eli at QB (and the expense that came with that - $45M in cap space these two years)
- doubling up at QB in '19 (money on Eli and a #6 on Jones)
- not adding a premium pass rusher prospect in either draft (Chubb in '18 or Allen in '19 {had we resolved QB in '18})
Barkley is a fantastic player - I want to repeat that yet again for the people that think I'm criticizing him. But the decision to draft him (in tandem with keeping Eli when he should have been gone prior to '18) was a major factor in impeding the transition from Reese to whatever we are now, and in combination with the Shurmur hire the main reason '18 and '19 have been complete disasters. And here we are on the precipice of a 10-24ish start to the Gettleman era.
The counterpoint is that regardless of who else they picked, I still think Gettleman and/or Shurmur ultimately fail to build/coach the team in such a way that would render that player into someone who contributes to wins.
1. Shurmur
2a. Retaining Eli in 2018
2b. Drafting Barkley
3a. Retaining Eli in 2019
3b. Signing Beckham
That's a lot of major errors in less than a year and a half. There have been others (Solder, Ogeltree), but those are the big ones.
If you don't think that is better than where we are at right now, you are not being honest with yourself..
I don't think Lamar Jackson is the answer. I think he will be found out against the better teams, i.e. the play-offs.
If you don't think that is better than where we are at right now, you are not being honest with yourself..
I'm not sure how you could say it's better than where we are right now when a big part of Jackson's game is predicated on running and the historical shelf life of quarterbacks had a similar playing pattern is shorter due to the higher risk of injury.
There's no way NYG were taking Nick Chubb @ 2.
It was Barkley or a QB.
It was Chubb if not Barkley. Believe JonC told us that and I believe that was the story that came out later.
Ummm...
Darnold just torched one of the worst defenses in the league. Jones also did.