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Good read on Jones & Darnold thus far

Sean : 10/30/2019 7:06 am
Some quotes from a scout:

Quote:
“Awkward footwork, throwing the ball up, turning the ball over,’’ a college and NFL talent evaluator told The Post. “I can’t believe how the national media goes crazy over Darnold. I can’t see what they’re looking at.’’


Quote:
“I’m very pleasantly surprised,’’ he said. “He wasn’t accurate as a deep-ball thrower at all at Duke and he’s really thrown some really nice deep-ball passes over the outside shoulders of the receivers. He’s getting better, but getting better doesn’t always translate to wins.



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I think the  
shockeyisthebest8056 : 10/30/2019 2:06 pm : link
but there's a reason QBs who leave college as redshirt sophomores haven't had much long-term success in the NFL. (Mike Vick has probably had the best career of them all.) QB is very much a position about reps, experience, and maturity. All of the best QBs in the NFL started 3 or 4 years in college while being there at least 4 or 5 years (with the notable exception of Brady in terms of starts). That's why Sam's mechanics aren't always the best. That's why Sam looks better on "off design" plays than regular ones. And for a guy lacking experience, catching mono and missing games certainly didn't help. Who knows how long he was feeling like shit before and after that?

As for Daniel, I'm 100% sold already. Everything the Giants do now needs to be about surrounding that kid with talent and support. By the start of Eli's second season, the Giants had already drafted Chris Snee and signed Shaun O'Hara, Kareem McKenzie, and Plaxico Burress. The Giants need that same type of investment for DJ.
RE: RE: Darnold can play  
giants#1 : 10/30/2019 2:08 pm : link
In comment 14654866 Chris684 said:
Quote:
In comment 14654862 Go Terps said:


Quote:


The problem there is the offensive scheme sucks, and the whole team is a mess. Darnold's best attributes: extending plays, throwing on the run, and making plays off schedule, don't fit with what they're doing. They just really fucked up with the Gase hire. They fell into the "QB whisperer" trap when what they really needed was a program builder. Not all that different from the Giants, actually.

Jones is more polished and better mechanically than Darnold is, and it comes across in his ball placement. Shit, Jones looks like a better pure thrower than Eli.

I'd like to see some more planned QB runs, and/or Jones keeping it on the read option. I think this week was the first time we saw it, if I'm not mistaken.



We saw it in Tampa and then it went bye bye for a month.

We need to get back to it.


Without Saquon (and even Gallman), you can't do read option. For those plays to be effective, you need the edge defenders to crash the ball carrier on the fake. No body was going to overcommit to Hilliman/Penny.

Now, hopefully we'll start to see it a couple times a game. Might loosen the D a bit for SB too.
I think the "Darnold is a mess" talk is very premature,  
shockeyisthebest8056 : 10/30/2019 2:10 pm : link
Oops... that's what's missing.
RE: I think the  
giants#1 : 10/30/2019 2:12 pm : link
In comment 14654883 shockeyisthebest8056 said:
Quote:
but there's a reason QBs who leave college as redshirt sophomores haven't had much long-term success in the NFL. (Mike Vick has probably had the best career of them all.) QB is very much a position about reps, experience, and maturity. All of the best QBs in the NFL started 3 or 4 years in college while being there at least 4 or 5 years (with the notable exception of Brady in terms of starts). That's why Sam's mechanics aren't always the best. That's why Sam looks better on "off design" plays than regular ones. And for a guy lacking experience, catching mono and missing games certainly didn't help. Who knows how long he was feeling like shit before and after that?

As for Daniel, I'm 100% sold already. Everything the Giants do now needs to be about surrounding that kid with talent and support. By the start of Eli's second season, the Giants had already drafted Chris Snee and signed Shaun O'Hara, Kareem McKenzie, and Plaxico Burress. The Giants need that same type of investment for DJ.


Trubisky's another young QB with limited college experience that is struggling, though he's certainly much closer to being considered a bust.

This was also one of the big flags with Haskins.
Commentary on Jones only  
LG in NYC : 10/30/2019 2:16 pm : link
I agree that even in the bad stretch he had, there were a handful of moments each game where he looked really good.

I believe he has thrown for at least 1 TD in each game, yes?

and he has made several eye-catching throws in every game, even the ones where he looked bad overall.

That is good to see and gives me great hope for his future.
RE: RE: Darnold is another USC bust  
NINEster : 10/30/2019 2:34 pm : link
In comment 14654435 Coach Red Beaulieu said:
Quote:
In comment 14654397 averagejoe said:


Quote:


he has happy feet and is too afraid to step into his throws and take a hit. It's very obvious and NFL DC's have noticed. It is not just the floaters to nobody off his back foot it is also his reluctance to step up into pocket when he has time and complete his throws. He is a mess. DJ is solid in pocket and has taken hit after hit to try to complete a pass. Every week he makes a few plays that impress everybody watching. Barring injury I understand the DG love.


I think it's telling BB didn't send the cover 0 blitzes against DJ8 in a monsoon, when he sends it against other young qbs like Darnold and Mahomes.


I'm still not convinced Mahomes is a great progression QB based on his 0-2 record against the Patriots.

Awful lot of posters  
lax counsel : 10/30/2019 2:41 pm : link
On this thread taking victory and high fiving laps for a 2-6 that hasn't shown much to be excited about outside of a couple of Daniel Jones performances, which lets see if he can repeat that for the majority of the remainder of the season. And I like Jones, nonetheless I think we all need a dose of reality.

That reality is we have no idea what Jones or Darnold will be, one is game 5 into year 2 and the other is game 7 into year 1. Darnold could rapidly improve and Jones could fall flat onto his face. Maybe it's the other way around. But declaring victory at this point is nothing short of homerism at is finest.

The other funny thing in this thread is blasting any poster who dared questioned the wisdom of taking a running back at number 2, when so many other glaring holes existed within the organization (something that 5 minutes before barkley was drafted was widely accepted on BBI as maybe not the most prudent strategy). Not the least of which was an old qb who struggled to throw the forward pass and led an offense to a blistering bottom 5 finish in the prior two seasons. But how dare anyone suggest taking a potential top qb (whether or not it's worked out that way yet) over a rb to reboot the franchise. And now the tagline is. "well all those posters changed their mind this year and said they wanted a trade down." I distinctly remember many posters advocating for either a trade down or a qb. It was acceptable to be happy with either outcome and still not want a rb at 2. But hey, you can't have it both ways, you could only have said one thing I guess.

Curiously, we had posters who disappeared after the Buffalo game, after spending the summer blasting anyone who suggested the franchise was still stuck in neutral and questioning the wisdom of Eli presence on the roster only to reappear after the Tampa game with long posts about hope and how they always knew it was time for change. Now everyone who suggested taking a qb or a trade down in 2018 is an abhorrent malcontent who should praise all the Giants decision making. However, we are all now watching yet another season over by halloween with one of the very, very few bright spots being some flashes from Jones, while the defense is continuously gashed and the oline gets blown off the ball most plays. If any evidence existed of improvement, I could see excitement, but we are heading towards another 4-12/5-11 season.

Listen, we all like Jones, or most of us do anyway. But we could also use a dose of reality on the current state of the franchise.
RE: Awful lot of posters  
gmen9892 : 10/30/2019 3:05 pm : link
In comment 14654961 lax counsel said:
Quote:
On this thread taking victory and high fiving laps for a 2-6 that hasn't shown much to be excited about outside of a couple of Daniel Jones performances, which lets see if he can repeat that for the majority of the remainder of the season. And I like Jones, nonetheless I think we all need a dose of reality.

That reality is we have no idea what Jones or Darnold will be, one is game 5 into year 2 and the other is game 7 into year 1. Darnold could rapidly improve and Jones could fall flat onto his face. Maybe it's the other way around. But declaring victory at this point is nothing short of homerism at is finest.

The other funny thing in this thread is blasting any poster who dared questioned the wisdom of taking a running back at number 2, when so many other glaring holes existed within the organization (something that 5 minutes before barkley was drafted was widely accepted on BBI as maybe not the most prudent strategy). Not the least of which was an old qb who struggled to throw the forward pass and led an offense to a blistering bottom 5 finish in the prior two seasons. But how dare anyone suggest taking a potential top qb (whether or not it's worked out that way yet) over a rb to reboot the franchise. And now the tagline is. "well all those posters changed their mind this year and said they wanted a trade down." I distinctly remember many posters advocating for either a trade down or a qb. It was acceptable to be happy with either outcome and still not want a rb at 2. But hey, you can't have it both ways, you could only have said one thing I guess.

Curiously, we had posters who disappeared after the Buffalo game, after spending the summer blasting anyone who suggested the franchise was still stuck in neutral and questioning the wisdom of Eli presence on the roster only to reappear after the Tampa game with long posts about hope and how they always knew it was time for change. Now everyone who suggested taking a qb or a trade down in 2018 is an abhorrent malcontent who should praise all the Giants decision making. However, we are all now watching yet another season over by halloween with one of the very, very few bright spots being some flashes from Jones, while the defense is continuously gashed and the oline gets blown off the ball most plays. If any evidence existed of improvement, I could see excitement, but we are heading towards another 4-12/5-11 season.

Listen, we all like Jones, or most of us do anyway. But we could also use a dose of reality on the current state of the franchise.


This reads like a guy that thought all of the things that you mentioned in your post. Nobody knows who is going to be wrong or right yet when it comes to the Giants future, but you had a ton of people SWEARING that the only way to build a team was to draft a QB last year and that no other QB Class would ever come around again where the Giants could find Eli's successor.

Then, the Giants might have found their successor literally a year later, on a guy half the fan base crapped all over. Again, we don't know if Jones' progress will continue, or if he will be better or worse than Baker or Darnold.

That didn't stop any posters last year from predicting the future of this franchise was doomed while killing the Front Office for not having a plan and making declarative statements left and right. It DOES works both ways.
lax counsel  
Go Terps : 10/30/2019 3:06 pm : link
I completely agree.

I think Jones can play, but I also think he's at risk of being collateral damage in the next tear down/rebuild that I think is coming in the next couple years.

Here's an interesting thought: if/when Gettleman/Shurmur are shipped out (I'm guessing after we go 5-11 again in 2020), will the incoming regime be selected based on their willingness to move forward with Jones instead of pursuing their own young QB? Further, what if we're in play for Trevor Lawrence?
Giants 2nd half: Jones needs to cut down on turnovers;  
SGMen : 10/30/2019 3:18 pm : link
players like WR Slayton, DB Love, LB Ximines need to play a LOT and show us they can be STARTERS in 2020 if not 2019 (post bye week, perhaps?).

The only way this team sees a fast turnaround is if we "strike gold" with our draft picks (and I think we mostly have...) and we must have a strong 2020 draft and UFA pickings.

1. LT - few rookies start and flourish but maybe we get lucky?
2. RT - best UFA RT out there ONLY if healthy & worthy of pay?
3. Solder - moves to RT if not and pay cut?
4. FS - Love or a UFA or a #2 but please just no Bethea

We clearly need a LT, RT, Pass Rusher and FS most.
I always..  
FatMan in Charlotte : 10/30/2019 4:08 pm : link
love the proclamations of victory laps posts. Nobody is saying anythings is decided yet - which is a huge diffeence from last year when people said immediately after the draft that we'd regret passing on Darnold.

What is being pointed out is that in Year 2, Darnold hasn't progressed and already has had a couple of games where he isn't showing even any flashes. On the flip side, even in losses, Jones is showing flashes, whether it is a pinpoint TD to Ellison or deep shots to Slayton.

There's no victory - but revisionist history, as the lap had already been taken last season by Darnold supporters.
RE: I always..  
GiantGiantsFan : 10/30/2019 4:25 pm : link
In comment 14655148 FatMan in Charlotte said:
Quote:
love the proclamations of victory laps posts. Nobody is saying anythings is decided yet - which is a huge diffeence from last year when people said immediately after the draft that we'd regret passing on Darnold.

What is being pointed out is that in Year 2, Darnold hasn't progressed and already has had a couple of games where he isn't showing even any flashes. On the flip side, even in losses, Jones is showing flashes, whether it is a pinpoint TD to Ellison or deep shots to Slayton.

There's no victory - but revisionist history, as the lap had already been taken last season by Darnold supporters.


Agreed.
lax...  
bw in dc : 10/30/2019 4:31 pm : link
Excellent stuff.

I will say, however, I’ve watched Darnold very closely and he’s lost right now. Mentally and physically. His mechanics, while never textbook, are horrific. The Jets are in dangerous waters with him. I certainly hope he responds. But if not, they are in a serious bind.

I’m sure you know what’s going on here. The SB-was-the-best-pick crowd are very short sighted. They just care that Barkley is good, and not that he was what was best for the team. So DG nailed it in their minds.

It’s like this LW trade. Yes, we got a nice player. But did we really need a 3-4 DE when the DL is actually starting to show some ability in the pass rush and run contain. No. We should have been sellers at this free agency period. But if we wanted to buy, the better position choices were OL, LB, or a better back up RB.

.  
arcarsenal : 10/30/2019 4:55 pm : link
No one's taking victory laps as much as some of us are just pointing out that, yes... it actually was possible to find a QB after the 2018 draft. A lot of you guys swore up and down it was the gaffe of the fucking century because we passed on Sam Darnold.

Here we are a year and a half later and most people like our guy better early on and think he can be as good or better while Darnold is bumbling his way through an absolutely disastrous sophomore season that will be remembered as the year he had mono, saw ghosts, threw a fuckload of interceptions, and completely regressed mechanically.

Imagine Sam Darnold doing all of this here. Imagine how many people would be crucifying Dave Gettleman for fucking up the QB and taking the wrong guy.

Most people here wouldn't trade Jones for any of the 2018 QB's. But, if you read some of the commentary here regarding that draft, you'd think we punted on the '83 class here.

We had to listen to it for an entire fucking season. Forgive some of us for pointing out now that snap-judgments aren't always accurate and that sometimes patience is necessary in scenarios like these.

Some of the guys who went absolutely wild over Darnold have softened on that a bit... but there's always a few who won't ever budge. Which is what we got above.
RE: The Jets offensive line is even more...  
djm : 10/30/2019 5:00 pm : link
In comment 14654252 M.S. said:
Quote:

...of an embarrassment than our offensive line. And that's saying something. Practically all assessments about Sam Darnold are pre-mature. No one could succeed behind the Jet's front line, and that includes Daniel Jones.


Lol... yea ok.
Darnold over the last two years or so  
djm : 10/30/2019 5:03 pm : link
Looks like just another young qb prospect. Some good. Some bad. Mostly raw and messy but typical of a younger qb. Jones has struggled too but he’s shown more than what darnold has. Doesn’t mean jones is guaranteed to be the better long term qb, but it sure as fuck means something.
RE: Darnold can play  
djm : 10/30/2019 5:07 pm : link
In comment 14654862 Go Terps said:
Quote:
The problem there is the offensive scheme sucks, and the whole team is a mess. Darnold's best attributes: extending plays, throwing on the run, and making plays off schedule, don't fit with what they're doing. They just really fucked up with the Gase hire. They fell into the "QB whisperer" trap when what they really needed was a program builder. Not all that different from the Giants, actually.

Jones is more polished and better mechanically than Darnold is, and it comes across in his ball placement. Shit, Jones looks like a better pure thrower than Eli.

I'd like to see some more planned QB runs, and/or Jones keeping it on the read option. I think this week was the first time we saw it, if I'm not mistaken.


Word for word I agree. I don’t know if the giants are afraid of what’s behind door #2 with the whole running qb thing, maybe they aren’t afraid at all, but they seem to be terrified of letting jones run unless it’s for a game winning score. Shit I’m not asking for jones to be used like Jackson but we should cheat every now n then and design some running plays to keep the O moving.

arc  
Go Terps : 10/30/2019 5:37 pm : link
What you're saying about Darnold and the reaction of he were a Giant is fair. His 2019 has been a disaster and there is cause for concern.

Can we apply that same standard to the Barkley pick? Not to Barkley himself, but to the decision to pick him? At the end of the season I'm going to start a thread that's a thorough look into the Giants' 2018 & 2019 offensive performance, but for now here's where we stand where it counts - points scored per game:

2018: 23.1 ppg(and this is inflated by a couple big point totals after the season was over at 1-7... Remember those threads?)
2019: 19.8 PPG

Like I said, I'll let the season play out and dig in more thoroughly, but can anyone definitively say after 1.5 seasons that Barkley's presence has made any difference at all? Has Gettleman succeeded to this point in building a team around him (this includes a coaching staff) that has maximized Barkley's tremendous ability?

And when comparing the Darnold v. Barkley road maps, consider also that Darnold plays a position with lower physical attrition, and Barkley has already missed games with a lower leg injury.

As of right now it's fair to say the Darnold pick hasn't worked out as hoped at this early stage. But it's also fair to say it about Barkley, and history tells us Darnold's position peaks later than Barkley's.
Why wouldn't..  
FatMan in Charlotte : 10/30/2019 6:01 pm : link
you compare Barkley to his peers? A RB alone is not responsible for PPG, nor is any one position. If you did the same exercise for Beckham, you'd have no choice but to say he was a failed pick too since the team's PPG didn't dramatically increase with him.

You've already made up your mind that Barkley is a terrible pick. Fitting an analysis to meet your bias really isn't doing a whole lot.

Unless you can do a breakdown of where the team would be if they took Darnold or Chubb or Nelson in comparison to Barkley, it really is a bunch of bunk.
RE: arc  
GiantGiantsFan : 10/30/2019 6:02 pm : link
In comment 14655271 Go Terps said:
Quote:
What you're saying about Darnold and the reaction of he were a Giant is fair. His 2019 has been a disaster and there is cause for concern.

Can we apply that same standard to the Barkley pick? Not to Barkley himself, but to the decision to pick him? At the end of the season I'm going to start a thread that's a thorough look into the Giants' 2018 & 2019 offensive performance, but for now here's where we stand where it counts - points scored per game:

2018: 23.1 ppg(and this is inflated by a couple big point totals after the season was over at 1-7... Remember those threads?)
2019: 19.8 PPG

Like I said, I'll let the season play out and dig in more thoroughly, but can anyone definitively say after 1.5 seasons that Barkley's presence has made any difference at all? Has Gettleman succeeded to this point in building a team around him (this includes a coaching staff) that has maximized Barkley's tremendous ability?

And when comparing the Darnold v. Barkley road maps, consider also that Darnold plays a position with lower physical attrition, and Barkley has already missed games with a lower leg injury.

As of right now it's fair to say the Darnold pick hasn't worked out as hoped at this early stage. But it's also fair to say it about Barkley, and history tells us Darnold's position peaks later than Barkley's.


I don’t think it’s fair to use team statistics (PPG) to evaluate one player. When considering the individual, Barkley has been excellent, winning ROY honors. He just has been playing for a team that is rebuilding.

You talk about his injuries, but he came back way earlier than expected from his high ankle injury.

It’s true that the Giants has multiple holes during last years draft, but they chose to focus on RB, and they got a good one, so let’s move forward.
For reference..  
FatMan in Charlotte : 10/30/2019 6:06 pm : link
The Jets are 29th and 31st in the league in PPG since Darnold has been the starter.

What is that supposed to illustrate?
.  
arcarsenal : 10/30/2019 6:06 pm : link
Terps - I think we're treading into faulty logic once we start attributing things like PPG totals to one singular player. Especially because circumstances have to be considered here.

For example, going with Manning for 2 games and now having the rookie learning on the job. Barkley himself missing 3 games. The current state of the OL. The WR group... lost Coleman right away, Tate was suspended 4 games, Shepard is on his 2nd concussion, Slayton was limited by a hamstring issue early on. Even Zeitler was pretty clearly limited a few weeks ago - and he still might be.

All of these things are going to have an impact on the offenses bottom line independent of Barkley, so when we look back at the year and then just attach the number to Barkley, I'm not sure it will tell us much.

The other issue is that (and I've made this point a few times before), you're probably going to arrive at the same place even if you replace Barkley with the player of your choice from the 2018 draft. Whether it's one of the QB's, Bradley Chubb or some hypothetical trade down that nets us Quinton Nelson (and I hate even entertaining post-draft trade downs in hindsight because it's quite honestly an exercise in futility)

We'd still be sitting here talking about how the coach sucks, how we're destined for another 5 win year, etc. I don't think any of that would change... which is why I think it's unfair to keep placing so much emphasis on that one single draft pick.

I think the difference re: the end of your post is that people are seriously questioning the player himself when it comes to Darnold right now. I don't think that's the issue with Barkley - most people would gladly take him over any other RB in the league and feel good about it - with Barkley, it's more a debate centered around resource allocation. I don't think anyone doubts the ability of the player.

I just don't know if I really believe people who say that they'd be 'okay' with a 5 win season if the personnel was different and we were losing in other ways. Really, a 5 win team is a 5 win team at the end of the day.

I think my biggest concern for NYG right now (aside from the coaches), is how Gettleman approaches FA this spring.

If he approaches it the way you think he will, I will certainly be right there with you criticizing it. I'd like to think he's learned a little something; but he's been around the NFL a long time so that might be wishful thinking.
I'm not evaluating the player  
Go Terps : 10/30/2019 6:18 pm : link
I'm evaluating the decision, and the direction. Picking Barkley at #2 meant:

- keeping Eli at QB (and the expense that came with that - $45M in cap space these two years)
- doubling up at QB in '19 (money on Eli and a #6 on Jones)
- not adding a premium pass rusher prospect in either draft (Chubb in '18 or Allen in '19 {had we resolved QB in '18})

Barkley is a fantastic player - I want to repeat that yet again for the people that think I'm criticizing him. But the decision to draft him (in tandem with keeping Eli when he should have been gone prior to '18) was a major factor in impeding the transition from Reese to whatever we are now, and in combination with the Shurmur hire the main reason '18 and '19 have been complete disasters. And here we are on the precipice of a 10-24ish start to the Gettleman era.
in hindsight..  
AndyMilligan : 10/30/2019 6:21 pm : link
the best use of the 2018 #2 would have been to trade it for two firsts (from Buffalo?) and rafting Lamar Jackson and Nick Chubb..

If you don't think that is better than where we are at right now, you are not being honest with yourself..
In hindsight,  
Go Terps : 10/30/2019 6:28 pm : link
the best move would have been to make Greg Roman the OC or even head coach in 2018 and draft Jackson at 2 (or perhaps later after a trade down). He's had the biggest impact of any of the rookies in that class by a quite a bit.
RE: I'm not evaluating the player  
GiantGiantsFan : 10/30/2019 6:28 pm : link
In comment 14655305 Go Terps said:
Quote:
I'm evaluating the decision, and the direction. Picking Barkley at #2 meant:

- keeping Eli at QB (and the expense that came with that - $45M in cap space these two years)
- doubling up at QB in '19 (money on Eli and a #6 on Jones)
- not adding a premium pass rusher prospect in either draft (Chubb in '18 or Allen in '19 {had we resolved QB in '18})

Barkley is a fantastic player - I want to repeat that yet again for the people that think I'm criticizing him. But the decision to draft him (in tandem with keeping Eli when he should have been gone prior to '18) was a major factor in impeding the transition from Reese to whatever we are now, and in combination with the Shurmur hire the main reason '18 and '19 have been complete disasters. And here we are on the precipice of a 10-24ish start to the Gettleman era.


I hear your points. But Eli might still be on the roster had we drafted in 2018. Given his legendary status, the Giants could very well have continued to start him last year. And none of Mayfield/Darnold/Rosen has panned out as expected to date. Yes QB Josh Allen and Lamar Jackson are playing well, but that’s hindsight. Yes it’s true we didn’t get a pass rusher.

Seems like the front office can’t win, unless they win a super bowl. Had they moved on from Eli, they would have gotten criticized for being impersonal. Have they stuck with him, well we all know that outcome. That’s just the nature of the beast I guess.

Overall in 2018  
fkap : 10/30/2019 6:30 pm : link
my impression is that most people wanted a QB (split amongst 'any QB' and an assortment of 'I want QB X') or SB.

But, there were other groups that wanted different specific players and/or a trade down.

Yes, a lot more people are vocal now about we shoulda traded down, but a lot of people were calling for a trade down pre draft.
Jackson is not hindsight for me  
Go Terps : 10/30/2019 6:31 pm : link
I wanted him at the time. My only concern was his mother acting as his agent, but clearly Baltimore handled that.
RE: I'm not evaluating the player  
arcarsenal : 10/30/2019 6:32 pm : link
In comment 14655305 Go Terps said:
Quote:
I'm evaluating the decision, and the direction. Picking Barkley at #2 meant:

- keeping Eli at QB (and the expense that came with that - $45M in cap space these two years)
- doubling up at QB in '19 (money on Eli and a #6 on Jones)
- not adding a premium pass rusher prospect in either draft (Chubb in '18 or Allen in '19 {had we resolved QB in '18})

Barkley is a fantastic player - I want to repeat that yet again for the people that think I'm criticizing him. But the decision to draft him (in tandem with keeping Eli when he should have been gone prior to '18) was a major factor in impeding the transition from Reese to whatever we are now, and in combination with the Shurmur hire the main reason '18 and '19 have been complete disasters. And here we are on the precipice of a 10-24ish start to the Gettleman era.


Those decisions on Manning should be viewed independently, though - and if we want to call them poor cap decisions, that's certainly fair. I won't argue that.

But - we still could have drafted Barkley without it needing to result in having Eli still here this year. Not cutting him after '17 didn't strike me as particularly awful; but they probably should have done it this year.

That said, several posters have correctly pointed out that the timeline complicated things a bit with the QB's. It's not revisionist history because many people were campaigning for NYG to do that at the time. But, I think the team was genuinely worried about getting caught with their tails between their legs if the draft didn't play out the way they wanted and viewed Eli as insurance that they wanted in place.

There's no way we were ever going to go with Kyle Lauletta as the starter. There are bad roster decisions, and unacceptable ones... the Giants really could not have started that guy. He would have been the worst starter in the league and it probably wouldn't have been particularly close.

I wanted Josh Allen @ 6 - I thought he was a run to the podium pick when he fell to us and I said that at the time. I also believed Daniel Jones could have been had @ 17... and after the smoke cleared, that became much less certain. The other problem here is we're again revising history and it means you have to take Dexter Lawrence (and DeAndre Baker) off the team. Is that swap worth it? I don't know.

I wanted to stack Barkley and Lamar Jackson in 2018. That was the plan I harped on a bunch of times and wanted to see here. An RPO heavy team with Jackson/Barkley and have them stack the shit out of the OL and completely dominate people on the ground and kill them with PA.

Barkley has been drafted, we can't go back and change that now. But, I believe a lot of the things I wanted to see with Jackson/Barkley can be done with Jones. And Jones is a better passer than Jackson.

So, what the Giants need to prioritize is building an offense that maximizes the RB. Right now, we have the wrong coach and the wrong offensive line. If Gettleman can actually FIX the offensive line... not just have it look better than pure garbage here and there - fix it... there really should be a point before Barkley/Jones' rookie deals are up where we can actually win football games. But, that's up to the higher ups to execute.
And saying the front office can't win unless they win a Super Bowl...  
Go Terps : 10/30/2019 6:33 pm : link
Come on already. These two years have been complete dogshit.
RE: Overall in 2018  
arcarsenal : 10/30/2019 6:36 pm : link
In comment 14655318 fkap said:
Quote:
my impression is that most people wanted a QB (split amongst 'any QB' and an assortment of 'I want QB X') or SB.

But, there were other groups that wanted different specific players and/or a trade down.

Yes, a lot more people are vocal now about we shoulda traded down, but a lot of people were calling for a trade down pre draft.


People call for trade downs every single year here. It's as tried and true as the sun rising in the East and setting in the West.

It takes two to tango. Sometimes those trade downs aren't always available or aren't advantageous. It's easy to keep saying the Giants should trade down... people do it every season.
I think after 2 years  
fkap : 10/30/2019 6:37 pm : link
you have a good idea of what a player is going to be. Yes, they're going to continue to improve, but you have a good inkling. IF Darnold continues to look bad, the odds are he's going to wash out. He might do well, but do you really want to hang on to a fading hope that he's a late bloomer?

Where you run into trouble is when played show signs of almost being good enough and you're faced with a choice of cutting bait or holding on and there's no good evidence either way.
RE: And saying the front office can't win unless they win a Super Bowl...  
GiantGiantsFan : 10/30/2019 6:38 pm : link
In comment 14655323 Go Terps said:
Quote:
Come on already. These two years have been complete dogshit.


And how much of it was inherited vs caused by them? Yes it’s been a bad time for the team. But maybe it’s not an easy fix like we would have hoped. Would Lamar Jackson have been able to deal with the New York media? Who knows?
arc  
Go Terps : 10/30/2019 6:39 pm : link
The timeline to move on from Eli could not have been more perfect in '18:

- financial out in his contract
- new GM
- new head coach
- QB class with four first rounders

The only sticking point was sentimentality and nostalgia. So we kept him around, went 5-13, and mercifully pulled the plug. All could and should have been able with just a little bit of foresight.

The results since speak for themselves.
*avoidable  
Go Terps : 10/30/2019 6:40 pm : link
.
.  
arcarsenal : 10/30/2019 6:43 pm : link
I don't really disagree, I said several times I was okay with moving on from Manning after last year and that it felt like the right time... and I bet the GM and coach felt the same way.

The problem is that I don't think the owner did.

There was a sentimentality factor indeed - and it came from the man at the very top of the food chain. He wanted to give Eli the 'proper' sendoff after what happened in '17 and we tried to force a farewell tour onto a crappy football team that was going to be doing a lot of losing.

Decisions shouldn't be made that way.
arc  
fkap : 10/30/2019 6:44 pm : link
That is true. We don't know what may or may not have been on the table. But DG had a massive woody for SB, so I would have doubts that he applied too much leather in peddling a deal. I wasn't in the room, though.

It was a year with a lot of coveted players though, so I would think it was a good year for potentially trading down.
.  
arcarsenal : 10/30/2019 7:02 pm : link
He did - and the posters who have criticized him for not even entertaining offers have a legitimate gripe. It didn't seem like he had any intention of moving off Barkley no matter what was offered.

Ultimately, I was fine with Barkley - I still am. But, if you're not even listening to offers, you're only doing yourself a disservice. All it takes is one team to blow you away with an offer you can't refuse. I certainly would have felt a little better about the pick if Gettleman listened to offers and ultimately decided that Barkley was still his best bet. I'd rather have Barkley knowing that we explored all avenues before walking to the podium... I'm pretty sure Gettleman had the pick in within 10 seconds.
Arc....I agree...love SB, but the guy I would have targeted in a trade  
Zeke's Alibi : 10/30/2019 7:22 pm : link
down would have been Nelson just to play armchair GM. However it takes two to tango and how far down would I have moved to guarantee I got him? Probably 5 because we all know the Colts were thirsty for Oline help. Did the Broncos want to give up a QB like haul for SB? These questions are easy in hindsight, and we have certain posters here that act like they have all the answers, but I don't blame DG one bit for staying put. If trading down was the cure to all ills, you wouldn't see anyone doing it because everyone would try to be doing it.
Yes, Jones looks better than Darnold right now  
eugibs : 10/30/2019 7:26 pm : link
However, as difficult as it is to imagine, Darnold is probably in an even worse situation in terms of the players around him. It is still way too early to tell who is better between the two of them. Both have shown some flashes, but no real proof from either yet that they are going to be elite QBs.

With that said, even if Jones is better than Darnold, that in no way excuses the Barkley pick. With massive holes all over the field, squandering that asset on a running back will always be inexcusable. I don’t know why people insist on starting these threads constantly trying to recast this regime’s blundering, clueless personnel decisions as prescient in retrospect. Let’s just admit they have no idea what they’re doing and just hope they nonetheless lucked out with Jones. That’s all we got at this point (we’ll, that and Mr. Generational’s sick cuts in the 4th quarter down 20 and 97 Madden rating).
Terps  
BigBlueCane : 10/30/2019 7:40 pm : link
the best move would have been to draft Nelson #2 overall and go from there.
RE: Jackson is not hindsight for me  
Coach Red Beaulieu : 10/30/2019 8:21 pm : link
In comment 14655320 Go Terps said:
Quote:
I wanted him at the time. My only concern was his mother acting as his agent, but clearly Baltimore handled that.

Baltimore traded up in front of the Giants to nab Jackson. Where there's smoke there's fire? Could have been as big of a shock as the DJ8 pick this year.
RE: I'm not evaluating the player  
santacruzom : 10/30/2019 11:14 pm : link
In comment 14655305 Go Terps said:
Quote:
I'm evaluating the decision, and the direction. Picking Barkley at #2 meant:

- keeping Eli at QB (and the expense that came with that - $45M in cap space these two years)
- doubling up at QB in '19 (money on Eli and a #6 on Jones)
- not adding a premium pass rusher prospect in either draft (Chubb in '18 or Allen in '19 {had we resolved QB in '18})

Barkley is a fantastic player - I want to repeat that yet again for the people that think I'm criticizing him. But the decision to draft him (in tandem with keeping Eli when he should have been gone prior to '18) was a major factor in impeding the transition from Reese to whatever we are now, and in combination with the Shurmur hire the main reason '18 and '19 have been complete disasters. And here we are on the precipice of a 10-24ish start to the Gettleman era.


The counterpoint is that regardless of who else they picked, I still think Gettleman and/or Shurmur ultimately fail to build/coach the team in such a way that would render that player into someone who contributes to wins.
santacruz  
Go Terps : 10/31/2019 12:01 am : link
That's almost certainly true. As I see it the crucial errors Gettleman committed rank like this:

1. Shurmur

2a. Retaining Eli in 2018
2b. Drafting Barkley

3a. Retaining Eli in 2019
3b. Signing Beckham

That's a lot of major errors in less than a year and a half. There have been others (Solder, Ogeltree), but those are the big ones.
RE: in hindsight..  
Gruber : 10/31/2019 6:29 am : link
In comment 14655309 AndyMilligan said:
Quote:
the best use of the 2018 #2 would have been to trade it for two firsts (from Buffalo?) and rafting Lamar Jackson and Nick Chubb..

If you don't think that is better than where we are at right now, you are not being honest with yourself..


I don't think Lamar Jackson is the answer. I think he will be found out against the better teams, i.e. the play-offs.
RE: in hindsight..  
BSIMatt : 11/4/2019 3:04 pm : link
In comment 14655309 AndyMilligan said:
Quote:
the best use of the 2018 #2 would have been to trade it for two firsts (from Buffalo?) and rafting Lamar Jackson and Nick Chubb..

If you don't think that is better than where we are at right now, you are not being honest with yourself..


I'm not sure how you could say it's better than where we are right now when a big part of Jackson's game is predicated on running and the historical shelf life of quarterbacks had a similar playing pattern is shorter due to the higher risk of injury.
Darnold over Jones??????  
Mike Y : 11/11/2019 7:19 am : link
Yea Ok. The original poster ought to be shot. Darnold just torched Jones!!!
RE: RE: RE: .  
section125 : 11/11/2019 7:26 am : link
In comment 14654304 arcarsenal said:
Quote:

There's no way NYG were taking Nick Chubb @ 2.

It was Barkley or a QB.


It was Chubb if not Barkley. Believe JonC told us that and I believe that was the story that came out later.
RE: Darnold over Jones??????  
FatMan in Charlotte : 11/11/2019 8:01 am : link
In comment 14674509 Mike Y said:
Quote:
Yea Ok. The original poster ought to be shot. Darnold just torched Jones!!!


Ummm...

Darnold just torched one of the worst defenses in the league. Jones also did.
It would've been Chubb  
JonC : 11/11/2019 8:14 am : link
there was no QB in their top 3.
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